This question has probably been asked before, but...

[Stacey Sweeney]

What do you do when you are finished with a novel and you send it out, and it gets rejected? I'm not all that new to writing, I have some short stuff published, but nothing like a novel. I wrote one, sent it out, got rejected 20 times (by agents). One rejection prompted a rewrite and now it's done again. I sent it to 2 agents and it was rejected by both. I don't know how to tell if it sucks, or if I'm just not finding the right agent. I don't want to burn a bunch of bridges now if my ms can be improved more, but I'm not sure how to go about improving it. I like it. I posted the first chapter on the share your work section, but only 2 people critiqued it. I listened to their critique, thought about it, then disagreed. I'm not being conceited. They may be right. They said it started off slow with no real hook, but it fits with many, many other novels in the same genre (YA/Romance). Plus, I don't know what a hook is. So, I don't know how to add one. Or if I even should. I wrote a book of the same type I like to read. Is that what most people do? For example, I love romance of any kind (except sci-fi) but I skim the flowery details and three-ten page sex scenes. So, I didn't write either. Why write what I skim?

I really want to be a good writer (thou I don't know why), but I'm not sure how to further improve. I'm working on my second book (okay, honestly I'm working on reading a Dean Koontz book I got at a recent trip to Goodwill, but I did start my second ms.) I think my second is better than the first, but the first is PG for young teens and the second is adult/late YA with a lot more real life to it. I don't think the first is necessarily boring, but I'm bored with it. I don't know if I should go back and add some kind of subplot or if I should shelve it for awhile or what. Maybe I should just keep sending it out.

What do you guys do when no one seems to like your book but you?
Thanks,
Stacey

[triceretops]

Hi, Stacey. We all love our books, no doubt. There does come a time, after it's finished, to lay it aside and let it cool off. This is so you can look at it objectively, not quite, but with another set of eyes--critical eyes.

I'm not a YA genre writer. I do believe you are competent as far as the craft goes--no doubt I wish I could write with simple basic sentences as you do. I went back to your submission and checked it out. I think Pattithewicked has some very relevent ideas on improving. I only think you need some "color" and maybe a little metaphore to livin up your prose. Reread Patti's example and look for the "atmosphere" that she's included in there. For instance, the comment about the Orlando Bloom poster speaks about personality, or ambiance (sp?)
Could you describe a fireplace with a crackling fire in another manor of describing it? Stephen King takes these little tricks to extremes sometimes, but he is a good teacher in this regard. The Stand is full of such gimics, and you certainly don't need to plaster your manuscript with such writing, but some color certainly wouldn't hurt.

I'm a little out of my element here, but what I'm trying to say is, don't be afraid to use some word gymnastics--it's okay to be clever and innovative in writing. Normal and "safe" writing usually, but no always, doesn't impress or make the cut with editor/agents--they see it all the time. You want to stand out.

Also remember that critters haven't got it in mind to "not like your book." They are only showing where it might be advisable to improve in certain areas. Listen and read comments attentively--if you see multiple comments in regard to changes, it's a pretty good sign for you to evaluate those ideas fairly and objectively.

I'll take leave and wait for a real pro to come in here and add to the pot.

Good luck with your project.

Triceratops

[brokenfingers]

Hello Stacy,

I figured I'd give you my input and you can ignore it or discount as you wish.

I took a look at your piece in the SYW and from what I can see I don't see any problems at all with your writing. You seem to have a pretty good prose style and the bestseller lists are full of books written much worse than your sample. I think you're a very good writer.

The only problem I can see is with the story and its structure. A hook is something in the beginning of a story that impels the reader to keep reading. Your story's missing that and nowadays that's one thing an agent will be looking for. As they read it they'll be asking themselves: Why should I be reading this? Why is somebody going to pay good money to buy this.

That's their job, that's what they do. Look at stories and decide if they can get people to buy them.

It doesn't have to be something grand and flashy or dramatic. The hook can be the style of your writing (especially if it's in first person.) Or an exceptionally vivid character. Or an intriguing piece of dialogue. Basically some kind of question or simple conflict early on that will make a reader think: Hmmm, I wonder why that is? or I wonder what's going to happen? or I want to get to know her better.

Anything besides waiting for something to happen. It can be subtle like just mentioning that she's dreading even being there as she's dropped off. Or she hopes it isn't a repeat of the disastrous last year. Or whatever. Like I said - I don't know your story so I'm just throwing things off the top of my head out as examples. Nowadays in the current market atmosphere, some kind of hook is vital. Something that makes the reader want to read on, makes them asks questions that only you can answer, makes them want the information that only you can provide.

The best openings introduce the character and give the reader some kind of indication of what they're in for and gives them an inkling of the situation and makes them want to read on.

I know your story is a YA novel but can't really tell by the excerpt what exactly it is about but if I were you I'd not worry about the writing and concentrate on structure.

Entice the reader. String them along. Treat them like a leery kitten, drop those crumbs of story out for them to follow and eat up. Introduce the characters and the situation in an entertaining way that makes them want to read more.

Follow thorugh, provide conflict, problems, tension, more juicy story.

Then end it with a climax or resolution.

That's basic structure. Of course, there are a million things you can do with it once you're familiar with it.

Like I said, it's just my 2 cents and you can pass it on by. I'm sure there will be a lot of other comments made here also designed to help you on your journey.

Good luck!

[cwfgal]

A hook is something that grabs the reader's attention and keeps it. It's the type of thing that would make you zero in on one person in a restaurant or mall when you're surrounded by strangers. You don't know or care about any of the people around you until something happens...an event, a scene, a comment, or maybe even the unusual way someone looks. And then suddenly your attention is riveted, you're curious. You want to see/hear/know/watch more.

Your book and the characters in it are like those fellow shoppers and diners to the average reader. You need to find a way to make the reader care, to grab their interest and keep them reading, to pique their curiosity.

Beth

[KelseyF]

What everyone else said. And...

1) I have benefited immensely from setting aside a finished piece for a month or so, and then coming back to it. I've forgotten most of my original thoughts, and re-reading it without those, is almost like I'm reading it for the first time. It's so much easier to make changes.

2) Yesterday, I checked my usual script sales board and saw that a certain script based on a novel had sold. I saw this screenplay a few years ago, as only a script, and was excited to see it resurface after awhile (despite not exactly loving the concept, or the original draft I read). Take from this story what you will, but trying again and again can (and has) bring success.

[maestrowork]

To change your ms. because 20 agents rejected it is a mistake. To revise your ms. because an agent says "it might be better this way" is another mistake.

If you're banking on using rejections and agents' comments to validate whether you're a good writer or not, then you're not there yet.

If you really are not confident if your writing is any good, join a crit group, get some REALLY good beta readers, get a book doctor. It does seem like you really want to learn and succeed and have the drive to do so. You just need to have the right resources (agents are NOT).

If nobody else seems to like the book, then you must reevaluate if you have written a trunk novel. It happens to many writers, even famous authors (not every book they write is a hit or sells). It doesn't mean you're a bad writer -- just that this particular book isn't good.

A real writer must be objective enough to see if he or she has indeed written crap.

Others have given you some very good advice. Readers are fickle now because movies, TVs and the Internet are competing with their attention -- a book must grab their attention immediately. An agent's job is to make sure the ms. does. What sets your ms. apart from the hundreds or even thousands that go through their mail slots?

Also, if you like certain genres, do study their structures and styles and forms. There are certain things that need to be there in some genres. For example, if you love romance but you just don't want to write sex scenes, you must question are you avoiding something? To be a good writer, IMHO, is to be able to push yourself. I am not saying you should write something you don't like. Just that if you love romance but just not the sex scene then you should maybe see if you can push yourself harder to write one anyway, or explore love stories that do not include sex...

[Susan Gable]

Also, if you like certain genres, do study their structures and styles and forms. There are certain things that need to be there in some genres. For example, if you love romance but you just don't want to write sex scenes, you must question are you avoiding something? To be a good writer, IMHO, is to be able to push yourself. I am not saying you should write something you don't like. Just that if you love romance but just not the sex scene then you should maybe see if you can push yourself harder to write one anyway, or explore love stories that do not include sex...

Excellent advice, Ray. :) There are romances that don't include sex, and actually, the YA sub-genre is one of them, so that may be a good thing for Stacey to try. I haven't read your stuff, Stacey, so I'm not commenting based on your actual writing, just speaking in general terms.

I also tend to write more like I read, and that means not putting in long descriptions. But, you do need to have some specific details that not only help ground the reader in the scene, but also offer some interesting insight into your characters. A chair is a chair is chair - but when the chair is shaped like a shoe, then it says something about the character who purchased the chair. :) (Exactly what it says about the character may vary. <G>)

If people offer you a piece of craft advice (you need a stronger hook, for example) and you don't understand what that means, then you need to find out what it means. (And many folks have given you good information here on just what a hook means.) Don't just dismiss it because you don't understand. You can ask here. That's what this place is for. :)

What you should be doing now besides rewriting is writing something new. Sometimes it's much easier to take what you learned on the first ms and apply it to a whole new ms, new story.

Good luck!

Susan G.

[maestrowork]

Another thing about hook... I like this particular advice: Make your readers ask pertinent questions. Who is this person? Why is she there? What is she doing? How did she get there? What is going to happen next?

If you successfully prompt your readers to ask these questions early on, then you have hooked them. The rest of the book would be some answers, then more questions, then at the end -- the answers to the ultimate question: what is this story about.

If you start your book with: "Jenny is an elementary school teacher. She has breakfast at 6:30, then arrives at the school at 7:15 and starts her day." We would think: ho hum, why should I care? You're feeding us information that we don't particularly care.

Now if you start your book with: "Jenny is late. It's 7:20 and she's still stuck in traffic. She has a presentation today and it can either make or break her career." Now you get us thinking: Who is Jenny? What does she do? What is she late for?

Get your readers to ask questions, then answer them (soon) but make them ask MORE questions... trust me, your readers will want to turn the pages.

[LightShadow]

Persistence, persistence, persistence, and then know when it's dead and becoming persistent with the next one because you were writing the next project during the madness of rejections.

[cwfgal]

To change your ms. because 20 agents rejected it is a mistake. To revise your ms. because an agent says "it might be better this way" is another mistake.

I disagree with this in part. Any suggested changes made by professionals in the business are worth considering and a revision based on such a suggestion is not necessarily a mistake. But in the end you are the only one who can decide if you want to make said changes. Try to consider any suggestions with an open mind...this is usually the hardest part for many writers. An agent's suggested changes may be geared toward making your book more marketable as opposed to "improving" the writing per se. You have to ask yourself what your end goal is and what sacrifices you're willing to make to reach that goal.


If you're banking on using rejections and agents' comments to validate whether you're a good writer or not, then you're not there yet.

If you really are not confident if your writing is any good, join a crit group, get some REALLY good beta readers, get a book doctor. It does seem like you really want to learn and succeed and have the drive to do so. You just need to have the right resources (agents are NOT).


I'm not a big fan of book doctors, though I did at one time hire a published novelist who was also a starving grad student/teacher for a creative writing class to critique my work for me. And I found his advice extremely useful. I didn't sell the novel he critiqued but I did sell the next one I wrote.

Agents CAN be a valuable resource though it doesn't mean they all are. Most won't bother to offer advice; they'll just send you a form rejection. As I said above, if an agent does take the time to suggest certain changes, don't disregard them outright.

Crit groups can be helpful if they are good ones but you often don't know how good a group will be until you're already well involved.


If nobody else seems to like the book, then you must reevaluate if you have written a trunk novel. It happens to many writers, even famous authors (not every book they write is a hit or sells). It doesn't mean you're a bad writer -- just that this particular book isn't good.


Or that an agent or editor doesn't believe said book will be easily salable or attract a wide enough readership to be marketable. Just because a book isn't deemed salable doesn't necessarily mean it's a bad book (though it might be). Publishing IS a business and as such things like bottom lines and salability have to figure into the equation.

I've known of writers who got dozens of rejections (one in particular who got over 100) of a given book only to eventually sell it and do quite well with it. The writer above who had his first book rejected over 100 times before selling it has had several more published since. My first agent suggested some changes to my ms before taking me on and they were good suggestions. I made all but one of them and once she took me on she was able to sell the book within a matter of weeks. But prior to hooking up with her, that ms garnered 29 rejections.


A real writer must be objective enough to see if he or she has indeed written crap.


Very true, but very hard to achieve for many. So finding some good critiquers or beta readers who will be honest about your work and who are qualified to judge it is invaluable. There may be some trial and error involved. And you need to be sure you want honest feedback and that you're not just looking for praise or validation.

Also, if you like certain genres, do study their structures and styles and forms.

Excellent advice. You can't go wrong reading and analyzing other works that have sold.

Above all, you have to decide whether or not you really want to write for publication and if you have the determination, perseverance, patience, and objectivity to do what's necessary to achieve that goal. I don't think there are many "born" writers. For most of us there is a learning curve, an apprenticeship of sorts. If you are willing to put what's necessary into the process, your chances of success increase considerably.

Beth

[Jaycinth]

It was 1998 before I considered that someone other than me might like my writing. It was 2002 before I thought anyone other than a few friends would read my writing. It was 2004 before I submitted ANY of my writing.

Now, I know for certain that 77 people I have never met before are not thrilled by my writing. More than half of those 77 people, although not thrilled, were encouraging.

77 out of how many billion on this planet? (and you have been rejected by, what, 22 out of how many billion?)
Sweetheart, so far the odds are great that someone will like it. Just don't sit on yours for 20 years like I did mine.:Hug2:

[Stacey Sweeney]

Thanks guys. You've been a lot of help. At first I thought I'd have to re-do the whole novel to give it a good "hook" but you've given me some good ideas on how to spice it up without changing the actual story. However, I didn't back up my story and have to retype the entire thing (I have a hard copy thank goodness) into the computer before sending it anywhere. Almost like fate is telling me to take another look at it before I send it out. (Or like fate is calling me an idiot for not backing up my work and saving the only copy on a reused ancient floppy disk.)

Thanks for those of you for complimenting my writing. I'm not one with real high self esteem and some days I wonder why on earth I subject myself to rejection on a regular basis. Then I remember that despite the rejections, I love writing, so.... Anyhow, thank you very much for pointing out the good in my ms. Thank you also for taking the time to read it. Hopefully a good "hook" will jump out at me while I wait for the patience to retype the whole friggin book.
Stacey

[Jamesaritchie]

However, I didn't back up my story and have to retype the entire thing (I have a hard copy thank goodness) into the computer before sending it anywhere. Stacey

It would be a lot faster and easier to scan it in as a document. You can do this if you have MS office. Or have someone do it for you.

[Stacey Sweeney]

I posted my new version of the first five pages of my ms. If any of you have time, could you critique it for me? It's in the Share your work section, under Romance. I took all the advice from everyone who critiqued my original and made some changes. My biggest worry is if I have a good, obvious hook. If you can't tell if I have a hook by the end of the first page, PLEASE let me know so I can work on it further.
Thanks!!
Stacey