Straight vs. curly speech marks Help?

[MissMacchiato]

I have noticed in my document, that I have instances of two different types of speech mark:

“Charming." I said dryly, and he nodded.

you can see I've highlighted the two types there. I was reading a blog, and gathered that the first type, the 'curly' ones, are considered preferable.

In all honesty, I don't really care which type I have, as long as they are all the same.

My problem now is this. It's the most massive document in the history of time.
And I can't do a find and replace all, because my version of word seems unable to make the distinction between the two types.

Does anyone know how I can fix this without going through manually?

[MissMacchiato]

okay, interesting. I just did a search and replace. It said it made 335 replacements, but when you scroll through, there are still curly ones in the document. It hasn't replaced anything at all.

arg driving me crazy! it looks so unprofessional!

[thothguard51]

I had the same situation and it developed because of different versions of MS Word. Search and replace did not help. I had to go through each dialogue and find and replace in order to have the document look uniform and not like a bunch of different versions. Because I could scroll from dialogue to dialogue, it only took about four hours and a pack of smokes.

I also had to go through my manuscript recently and delete any extra spaces at the end of a line because of a publishers formatting guidelines. Extra spaces cause problems when converted to e-book formats and can often lead to double line spacing where not intended. This one was a little more time consuming and took the better part of a day and half a bottle of scotch.

[MissMacchiato]

awww hell. That sounds like an absolute bastard.

http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/44/News_DoNotWant.jpg

[alleycat]

Hold on before you start doing it manually.

And generally, you will have fewer problems if you use straight rather than curly (smart) quotes.

[alleycat]

Have you make sure you've done all the steps listed here:

http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/word-help/change-curly-quotes-to-straight-quotes-and-vice-versa-HP005190124.aspx

And also, just to be sure, make sure you were on the first page when you run find and replace.

[Medievalist]

Don't use curly quotation marks.

Use straight ones.

Let your typesetter make 'em curly.

[alleycat]

Adding to what Medi and I have already said, don't use any of the "smart options" that Word offers. Do it the same way you would if you were using a typewriter (assuming you're old enough to remember typewriters).

It's easier if you set up a template file with everything set the way you want it to be and use that template when you begin a new writing project.

[MissMacchiato]

Thanks. I'll check out the link when I get back to my desk and let you know how I go. One of the problems is that I geneally work from google docs for edits and paste across. So there are multiple formats, multiple computers etc being used.

It's a pita for sure :)

[MissMacchiato]

strangely enough I followed those steps and didn't get a result, but when I followed this tutorial:

http://support.microsoft.com/kb/206165

it worked out. Strange, but yay. Fixed! thanks guys!

[PinkAmy]

Don't use curly quotation marks.

Use straight ones.

Let your typesetter make 'em curly.

Thanks- I used curly ones but I'm going back to reformat.

[MissMacchiato]

I'm just going to comment right here now, that you think you have something sorted....

I'm sitting on the phone to microsoft right now, since it's doing it again, this time with appostrophes. It's literally driving me crazy. My document has close to a thousand appostrophes. I'm hardly going to fix them manually. I reaaaally hope there's a fix!

Rosie

[Torgo]

I'm just going to comment right here now, that you think you have something sorted....

I'm sitting on the phone to microsoft right now, since it's doing it again, this time with appostrophes. It's literally driving me crazy. My document has close to a thousand appostrophes. I'm hardly going to fix them manually. I reaaaally hope there's a fix!

Rosie

I usually find, with smart quotes/apostrophes, that doing a search and replace where the input and output are the same does the trick. So I'd search for ' and replace with ' - exactly the same thing.

[Terie]

I'm just going to comment right here now, that you think you have something sorted....

I'm sitting on the phone to microsoft right now, since it's doing it again, this time with appostrophes. It's literally driving me crazy. My document has close to a thousand appostrophes. I'm hardly going to fix them manually. I reaaaally hope there's a fix!

You have to follow the right sequence. First, turn off Smart Quotes in all auto-correct settings (AutoFormat As You Type AND AutoFormat).

Then simply globally replace all ' with ' and " with ".

Personally, I hate, loathe, and despise the look of straight quotes. So I write with Smart Quotes turned on. When I'm ready to submit, I turn off Smart Quotes (again, you have to do it in both places) and globally change everything. It takes about 60 seconds, most of which is changing the settings. The global switch takes maybe 15 for both. :D

[MissMacchiato]

thanks guys. I think it was just being fussy. The blokes at Microsoft tried to tell me I'd changed the font for just my speech marks. Uh.... no. I don't think so, sweeties.

They did some poking around in my registry, told me they'd have to escalate it to a manager since find and replace wasn't working, and neither was changing the autoreplace settings. They promised they'd call back.

So, I go back to the document and tinker with it while I'm waiting to hear from them. 3 minutes later...

Sorted. Sometimes I think my verison of word is like a premenstrual woman. Totally unpredictable, and while one thing is met with joy and hugs, other times that same act is met with vile recrimations and physical abuse *shakes head*

I am so lost as to why it works some of the time and not all of the time :)

[Lillie]

I had to do this in Open Office. Change the curlies for the straights.

This is how I did it.

Turn off the curly quotes, find an opening quote, open find and replace, paste it in to the first field, use the keyboard to put a straight quote in the second field, click replace all.

Do the same for the closing quote.

The same method could be used for apostrophes.

Unfortunately I have been unable to find a way to do the opposite and change straights to curly. I can turn them all to opening, or all to closing using the above method in reverse, but not to put them all right so the opening quote opens, and the closing quote closes.

I will continue to try.

I think the answer would be, if someone knew they would want the document in both styles, to write it with curly quotes, save it like that, then change them to straight using the above method, and save that as a separate document.
Then you would have both.

[Terie]

I had to do this in Open Office. Change the curlies for the straights.

This is how I did it.

Turn off the curly quotes, find an opening quote, open find and replace, paste it in to the first field, use the keyboard to put a straight quote in the second field, click replace all.

Do the same for the closing quote.

The same method could be used for apostrophes.

Unfortunately I have been unable to find a way to do the opposite and change straights to curly. I can turn them all to opening, or all to closing using the above method in reverse, but not to put them all right so the opening quote opens, and the closing quote closes.

I will continue to try.

I think the answer would be, if someone knew they would want the document in both styles, to write it with curly quotes, save it like that, then change them to straight using the above method, and save that as a separate document.
Then you would have both.

I don't have OpenOffice, but assuming this feature works the same as MS Office, the current 'curly vs straight quotes' setting applies to all documents at all times. Having two copies of the file won't do any good, because the current setting applies, no matter which version you're in. IOW, it's a 'system-level' setting, not a 'file-level' setting.

If OO works the same as MSO, all you have to do is change the quote settings every time you want to switch, then globally change ' to ' and " to ". You don't have to find a character, copy and paste (though this isn't difficult with quote marks and apostrophes!), you just type the chacter into both the Find and Replace With boxes in the Find and Replace window, then click Replace All.

[night-flyer]

I never even noticed my marks being curly until I read this thread, went back to look and sure enough- they are all curly. :eek:

I've changed them out, but I have a short story subbed out. Is this something that could cause instant rejection??

[alleycat]

I never even noticed my marks being curly until I read this thread, went back to look and sure enough- they are all curly. :eek:

I've changed them out, but I have a short story subbed out. Is this something that could cause instant rejection??
Was it a print or e-mail submission?

[night-flyer]

e-mail

[Lillie]

I don't have OpenOffice, but assuming this feature works the same as MS Office, the current 'curly vs straight quotes' setting applies to all documents at all times. Having two copies of the file won't do any good, because the current setting applies, no matter which version you're in. IOW, it's a 'system-level' setting, not a 'file-level' setting.

If OO works the same as MSO, all you have to do is change the quote settings every time you want to switch, then globally change ' to ' and " to ". You don't have to find a character, copy and paste (though this isn't difficult with quote marks and apostrophes!), you just type the chacter into both the Find and Replace With boxes in the Find and Replace window, then click Replace All.

I can't make OO work like that.

But I can write with curly quotes, save it, change it to straight quotes, save it under a different name and have both.

Of course if I change anything in either version the new writing applies the quote style that is in force at the time.

[bowiefan1970]

I think this curly vs. straight argument is just us writers wanting to place rules on our writing and our art. Do what you want. Nobody told Van Gogh what brush to use or Eddie Van Halen what guitar to play. Although, if you have multiple versions of quote marks in your project, you should use find and replace for consistency. I have no idea why that won't work. I did it. You have to make sure you cover the front quotation mark, the back quotation mark, and the apostrophes. Each has to be done solo. Hope that helps.

[James D. Macdonald]

I've changed them out, but I have a short story subbed out. Is this something that could cause instant rejection??


No one is going to say, "This is a brilliant story! I laughed, I cried, I came away looking at the world a whole new way ... but it has smart-quotes. Reject!"

The problem with smart-quotes is that if the work is composed with one word-processor but read with another, the smart-quotes may vanish, or appear as some bizarre character or another, rather than translating from one to the other correctly.

Not that smart-quotes are terribly smart all on their own. Many word processors don't know how to handle multiple-paragraph dialog, just for an example.

[Jamesaritchie]

I think this curly vs. straight argument is just us writers wanting to place rules on our writing and our art. Do what you want. Nobody told Van Gogh what brush to use or Eddie Van Halen what guitar to play. Although, if you have multiple versions of quote marks in your project, you should use find and replace for consistency. I have no idea why that won't work. I did it. You have to make sure you cover the front quotation mark, the back quotation mark, and the apostrophes. Each has to be done solo. Hope that helps.

If everyone used Word, smart quotes wouldn't be a problem. If everyone submitted manuscripts as hard copy, smart quotes wouldn't be a problem.

But they don't, and that's the problem. No one had to open a Van Gogh file on a computer, and no one else had to play Eddie Van Halen's guitar.

Smart quotes falls under the same category as file type. When an agent or editor asks for .rtf, or Word DOC, or plain text, it's because it's compatible with their software. You wouldn't argue control and art by sending a file type they couldn't open, and the same applies to smart quotes.

[skylark]

I stopped using smart quotes when I gave someone else a beautifully formatted story to upload to a website...and when it appeared it was full of bizarre characters. It looked awful. Honestly, the most sympathetic agent or publisher in the world wouldn't have struggled through trying to reading it.

I fixed the document in question using search-and-replace in Frontpage (which is rather more stupid than Word) - just pasting in the curly quotes to the "find" box and typing the ordinary straight ones in the "replace". I did have to do opening and closing quotes separately, but it was very easy and transparent. But I was heading for a final document type of html. I don't use Word for that any more :)

[Torgo]

I stopped using smart quotes when I gave someone else a beautifully formatted story to upload to a website...and when it appeared it was full of bizarre characters. It looked awful. Honestly, the most sympathetic agent or publisher in the world wouldn't have struggled through trying to reading it.

I fixed the document in question using search-and-replace in Frontpage (which is rather more stupid than Word) - just pasting in the curly quotes to the "find" box and typing the ordinary straight ones in the "replace". I did have to do opening and closing quotes separately, but it was very easy and transparent. But I was heading for a final document type of html. I don't use Word for that any more :)

Yes: sounds like horrible character encoding issues. Curly quotes, I hates 'em - more trouble than they are worth.

There's also the personal issue that I have a weird blind spot for the little buggers, and have found myself having to do proof corrections on them more often than I'd like. What happens is, I write cover copy in Word, replete with curly quotes and apostrophes, and send it to the designer, who is on a Mac. Every single time, the smart quotes get lost in the shuffle, and depending on which designer is doing the cover they may not notice and fix them. So I get layouts back quite often with straight quotes all over the place and for some reason I'll spot everything but that. It's all my fault really but still: I hates 'em.

[Medievalist]

Every single time, the smart quotes get lost in the shuffle, and depending on which designer is doing the cover they may not notice and fix them. So I get layouts back quite often with straight quotes all over the place and for some reason I'll spot everything but that. It's all my fault really but still: I hates 'em.

I don't think it's your fault; I'm pretty sure it's not, in fact. I suspect your designer is inadvertently introducing the problem--because your designer is likely working in Photoshop or Illustrator or Quark or something similar, where the quotation marks are being "flattenened." It's considered a virtue--because designers etc. know Microsoft Word frequently gets printers' quotes/smart quotes/curly quotes wrong.

MS Word's assumptions about open / close quote marks are based on patterns of terminal punctuation and spaces. This is why single marks / apostrophes are often in cases of syncope or truncation ('tis), or in the presence of em-dashes.

Your designer can put them in by hand, quite easily, using the standard Mac conventions.

[Torgo]

I don't think it's your fault; I'm pretty sure it's not, in fact. I suspect your designer is inadvertently introducing the problem--because your designer is likely working in Photoshop or Illustrator or Quark or something similar, where the quotation marks are being "flattenened." It's considered a virtue--because designers etc. know Microsoft Word frequently gets printers' quotes/smart quotes/curly quotes wrong.

MS Word's assumptions about open / close quote marks are based on patterns of terminal punctuation and spaces. This is why single marks / apostrophes are often in cases of syncope or truncation ('tis), or in the presence of em-dashes.

Your designer can put them in by hand, quite easily, using the standard Mac conventions.

Yeah, I think where they get lost is in email, in fact. I email something from Outlook which has MS Word baked into it in some way, and they're opening it in - God knows - Entourage or something? Then their layout program doesn't fix it, and nor does the designer, because they have even bigger editorial blind spots than I do.

I feel it's my fault mainly because as the editor in this relationship I ought to notice the problem when the layouts come back - it does happen often enough after all! It's annoying having to pay for proof correx when it's just me dumbly failing to note straight apostrophes.

[Medievalist]

I feel it's my fault mainly because as the editor in this relationship I ought to notice the problem when the layouts come back - it does happen often enough after all! It's annoying having to pay for proof correx when it's just me dumbly failing to note straight apostrophes.

Send them an attached file?

[Torgo]

I do that now and again. But then as you say there are other holes in the net.

[AmsterdamAssassin]

You can switch smart quotes on and off in the Autoformat settings. And then just search for " and replace with ", and the autoformat will change them all to either straight or smart quotes, whatever you want.

I wrote in straight quotes, but converted them to smart quotes before I converted the doc into html into mobi/epub.

Otherwise, your Kindle/Nook file will look weird with only straight quotes.

For those who have trouble formatting their .doc to .mobi: if you go to the download section of my website [see signature], you can download a .pdf on how to convert .doc through .html to .epub or .mobi.
If you need examples on how it's supposed to look, the first ten chapters of Reprobate can be downloaded from that same page, in .pdf, .mobi, and .epub.

[Jonathan Dalar]

I've had this problem before, and it absolutely drove me bonkers trying to figure it out. I found switching fonts to a simpler one (I used Courier New) worked. It took all the 'smart' editing out with the switch. Since I've switched everything I do to Courier, I don't worry about it, but it would be something I'd check if I had to submit something in another font.

Nobody's going to shoot you or reject you solely because of smart fonts, but the conventional wisdom I've heard and seen from agents is to avoid using them. Use the old-fashioned ones. Sure, it makes your manuscript look less like a published work (with which I had an issue early on) but at the manuscript state, who the hell cares? You do what gives it the best shot at publication, and it that's 'dumb' quotes, that's what you do.

[Medievalist]

I've had this problem before, and it absolutely drove me bonkers trying to figure it out. I found switching fonts to a simpler one (I used Courier New) worked. It took all the 'smart' editing out with the switch. Since I've switched everything I do to Courier, I don't worry about it, but it would be something I'd check if I had to submit something in another font.

They are still "curly," it's just that Courier doesn't display a glyph that makes a distinction. Nonetheless, they're still high ASCII characters.

It's safe to do search-and-replace gong from curly-to-straight though; the problems are all associated with going the other way.

[KathleenD]

I shelled out for Dreamweaver just to make the curly quote problem (when posting work on a website) go away. (150 bucks for the student/teacher version.)

If you're planning to do a lot of web publishing or self-publishing, I highly recommend it. You paste in your text (assuming your base document is completely consistent), and DW renders the different kinds of quote marks with the right HTML codes. Boom, done.

There's a little more to it than just that, but it means that wherever I publish my file, the @#&! curly quotes are correct.

For submissions, I turn them off. Nothing says unreadable like a manuscript full of black diamonds with question marks in them.

[Medievalist]

There's a little more to it than just that, but it means that wherever I publish my file, the @#&! curly quotes are correct.

Actually, no, it doesn't.

It depends on the browser and the version of HTML it supports, and the language settings of the OS.

They'll look wrong in older browsers, for instance.

[KathleenD]

I learn something new every day around here, but I'm not always sure I like it.

;)

[Medievalist]

I learn something new every day around here, but I'm not always sure I like it.

;)

You know, there's really not that much to learning to hand-code, and you'll have much more efficiently loading pages than you will with Dreamweaver .

That said, I can recommend a super teach yourself book for Dreamweaver:

Dreamweaver CS5 for Windows and Macintosh: Visual QuickStart Guide.
by Tom Negrino and Dori Smith