I really don't know much about poetry.

[Anninyn]

I really enjoy it, and wrote it when I was younger (and have recently started writing it again) but I don't know any of the stuff it seems you're supposed to know. I know there are different 'forms' and structures for a poem, but I don't know when you should use them or when you should go unstructured.

I know about rythm, at least, and how important it is.

How much do I need to know before I start writing poetry again? I had an idea last night and wrote it down and it seems OK, but how would I know? Can I ask for advice and feedback if I know nothing about poetry to start with, or would it be rude?

[Lmc71775]

Free Verse is the best way to go!
You can write any old thing that way.
Don't have to worry 'bout rhyming and meter and all the sh...
Just have fun with it.
I think the most I've learned writing poetry.
Is that is should be filled with imagery, fresh voice (not cliched)
and most of all meaning...without being preachy.

Hope that helps.

[Priene]

Free Verse is the best way to go!
You can write any old thing that way.
Don't have to worry 'bout rhyming and meter and all the sh...
Just have fun with it.
I think the most I've learned writing poetry.
Is that is should be filled with imagery, fresh voice (not cliched)
and most of all meaning...without being preachy.

Hope that helps.

Can I take it that you've had a think about how this post reads to those of us who write with rhyme and metre?

[poetinahat]

You can write any old thing that way.
Don't have to worry 'bout rhyming and meter and all the sh...

I know the point you're intending to make, but the problem here is that, well, who wants to read "any old thing"?

No, poems don't need to be metric, but free verse does not grant one a license just to slop any words together without thought or care.

Good free-verse poems still have a music to them. Poems that aren't put together carefully don't even classify as prose, because they disappoint the reader.

I'm a bit snarky about this point, because I get so tired of reading poems where it appears the poet has put little or no thought or effort into how the thing reads to anyone else. If I feel like the poet hasn't put much effort into the poem, I'm not going to feel inclined to put much effort into critiquing it. If someone comes in and dumps a pile of blocks on the table, I'm not going to spend time telling them what I think of their castle, let alone offering thoughts on how to improve it.

And, no, rhyme and meter are not "shit". They're devices, and they can be very helpful and enjoyable to the reader -- like any tool, they don't need to be applied all the time, but the better one understands them and the more skill one acquires, the better one is able to decide when to use them and when not to.

I'm not anti-free verse at all - far from it. But I *am* anti-"anti-rhyme and meter".

[poetinahat]

And now, after my digression, I'd like to answer Anninyn's original post:

In my view, no knowledge is necessary either to write it or to comment on it. It's hard to learn about it without jumping in. Of course, the more we read, write and give thought to it, the more comfortable (and, ideally, better) we'll get with it.

eta: It sounds like you want to write, you want to improve, and you are beyond willing to listen to others' opinions -- you've actively sought them out. Those are the things I believe are most important.

Please do - come, post, and read others' poems. It's very good to have you here!

[kborsden]

I feel the core is more important. What I do, as a poet that writes to strict meter whether with rhyme or without, is to throw out whatever is in my head onto paper. No stress, worry or concern about meter or register, phonics or device and then once it is there, in front of me - rearrange, edit, tighten, find the natural meter and work the words to it, if there is room for rhyme, try it, but concern yourself that with rhyme comes the restraint of a far tighter symmetry and syllabic meter than without. Work devices into what you have, diversify your wording to spice up the raw splash of emotion or thought that you put down originally. Finally, punctuate to haw you read it aloud so the reader can understand the pacing - this generally also can be evident from line breaks when done in a manner that uses the break in natural speech patterns and hat simultaneously meets the meter. I tend to break for pacing first and base my meter from there.

Freeform is indeed another route, but that doesn't equal easy. When done right there is still a degree of meter in true freefrom poetry, it's just less strict. After all there is natural rhythm in words and combinations any way - so being natural is probably a good start in any case.

[Norman D Gutter]

Anninyn:

How good do you want to be? How far and high is your target for excellence? Are you aiming for a star or for a toad in the road? The target you set for yourself determines how much study you have to do. If self-expression is your goal, then by all means follow Lmc71775's advice and write "any old thing".

But if you aspire for more, if you read the poetry of the great poets or the near-great poets or the just plain excellent poets and think you might prefer to attempt to join their ranks, then you need to study their poetry and figure out what makes it excellent, near-great, or great. First find out what separates poetry from prose. Learn the elements of a poem, and learn how they can be used for maximum effect to create an impression on the imagination of the reader. Learn why your poetry should be reader-centered, not poet-centered. Learn at least a score of poetic devices, and preferably two score, and learn how the greats etc. used them to good effect.

Then go thou and do likewise.

NDG

[Quentin Nokov]

To be honest, I'm dumb-as-a-box-of-rocks when it comes to tempos and meters and structures. I just write free verse and I think they turn out okay. I'm not a great poet by any means since I know really nothing other than winging it. I suppose maybe that's partially to do with not being musically inclined? Eh, I don't know.

Don't worry about what 'level' you're at. We all started somewhere. Write your poem the way you'd like and if you really want to, search poetry styles, and then begin learning other forms and structures and meters. :)

[SinK]

In terms of a readable introduction to the technical aspects of poetry I would highly recommend Stephen Fry's 'The Ode Less Travelled'. He runs through the various metres and forms with his own charming commentary and a ton of examples and exercises.

As for the comments above about free poetry and creativity; as a big believer that skill in everything, including the creative arts, grows from an understanding of the technical aspects of a craft I am suspicious of any advice that advocates a 'just do it' approach. No art can be mastered without study of the technical (as well as creative) side of things but with writers the myth of 'natural' talent seems hardest to shake.

[Wordcaster]

As a newbie, I have now gone through half on THE ODE LESS TRAVELLED and feel like I have made gigantic strides in a couple days in my knowledge in approaching poetry. He seems a little hard on free verse (but says that he likes much of it). I wonder if he tires of so many bad poems that cross his eyes.

For me, I want to learn the rules before I learn to break the rules. I've been reading through collections of Robert Hass and Sharon Olds to get an idea of some contemporary pieces. Olds is a bit raw (as in not holding back), but man can she write. I'm digging Hass as well.

[poetinahat]

Thanks for the recommendation, SinK, and the comments, SinK and Wordcaster.

I've been pondering what would make a good prize for the next poetry contest; I think you've given me the answer!

[Blarg]

An anthology like Norton's perhaps would be a good place to come up with some questions about poetry that fit you yourself very well. We don't know all your questions or the ones you might develop or should start to ask, so we can at best give you hit or miss answers. It is sometimes said that the best way to learn how to write is to read more. Read enough to start coming up with your own best questions, and then read some more to start answering some of them and coming up with new ones. Start by finding what you like, and always keep your spirits up by finding more of it wherever you can. Then use your increasing sense of having a foundation to make exploratory forays into new poets or new styles. Don't feel obligated to like any of them; but do look, and do force yourself to come up with concrete reasons why you do not like what you like. It will be a great education in who you are, as well as in what you are studying.

Write in the styles of those you enjoy, in order to understand them right down to the syllable level. Write in the style of those you don't like, for a laugh for one thing, and to fix in your head how well you understand your dislike of their choices.

Then start writing your own stuff.

Hopefully the whole process never stops, and you always keep reading, and somewhere along the line you find yourself getting better or even finding your own voice. It may be a key with which you unlock yourself. Or one of many.

Finally, though others might disagree -- remember the song in poetry. A big part of the poet's gift is to find and manifest song.

[Gravity's Rainbow]

Haiku is good too
Too bad it has to be short
This makes me so sad

Anyway,
Poetry is about taking an idea and writing it in a way that flows.

Rhyme and meter are commonly used because they make words slightly easier to work with (the poem will sound good provided the words fit in the formula).

Free verse is all about what feels right.

[juniper]

In terms of a readable introduction to the technical aspects of poetry I would highly recommend Stephen Fry's 'The Ode Less Travelled'. He runs through the various metres and forms with his own charming commentary and a ton of examples and exercises

Thanks for the recommendation. I'm going to pick up a copy of this.