those pesky little unnecessary words

tko · Feb 21, 2011

I'm trying to remove unnecessary words, but sometimes I'm torn. Both of the below sentences are fine, one is shorter, but I'm so used to hearing the "for" I'm inclined to leave it in just because it feels right.

[FONT=&quot]She meant for us to find it.
[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]She meant us to find it.[/FONT]

I see a lot of cases like this - where a word isn't strictly necessary, but common speech uses it so often that it sounds a little strange when you leave it out. That little word "that" finds itself in a lot of these situations. You can leave it out, but it's not how people would talk.

Interested in your opinion, you guys are great.

[FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]

LaceWing · Feb 21, 2011

I know what you mean. Too proper sentences can stick out strangely. In this case, I might write "She'd wanted us to find it."

Chase · Feb 21, 2011

tko said:
You can leave it out, but it's not how people would talk.

I agree it's how some people talk.

I've noticed how writers of crime shows must "narrow down" a search. Now, no matter the level of diction my narrator or character uses, well-meaning critiquers correct "I'll narrow the field for you" to "I'll narrow down the field for you."

Or make "She walked to the desk" into "She walked over to the desk."

"They continued" becomes "They continued on."

"Where is he?" grows to "Where is he at?"

ResearchGuy · Feb 21, 2011

tko said:
. . . I'm inclined to leave it [the word "for] in just because it feels right.

[FONT=&quot]She meant for us to find it.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]. . . [/FONT]

Seems needed to me.

--Ken

Xelebes · Feb 21, 2011

Doesn't West Germanic languages have a lot of words that have preposition+verb?

zusammen, gesundheit, and so forth. It might be worth the while to look at what the verb is.

Walk means to ambulate.

Walk over means to traverse, to cross.

Walk to means to approach.

Walk over to means to traverse and approach.

Meant means "had in mind, said."

Meant for means something like "purposed, spoken for by."

Mollfie · Feb 21, 2011

I personally prefer it with the "for" because it reads better and it's what I hear more often.

maestrowork · Feb 21, 2011

"She meant us to find it" hurts my ears. You need the "for." I understand some people say that and it's okay to include in the dialogue if it's something the character would say. But in narrative, it's wrong.

For example, in my regional dialect people say things like "the car needs washed." It's colloquial and fine in dialogue, but grammatically it's incorrect. The correct sentence is "the car needs to be washed."

Susan Coffin · Feb 21, 2011

TKO,

Your first sentence is correct. The second one does not sound correct to me.

blacbird · Feb 21, 2011

maestrowork said:
For example, in my regional dialect people say things like "the car needs washed."

See, this is always the problem with regional dialect. In mine, people would say "the damn car needs washed, you betcha."

Jstwatchin · Feb 21, 2011

without having seen the voice you used in the rest of the work, I'd find this a very hard question to answer.

pdr · Feb 21, 2011

Is this...

a US - UK/Commonwealth thing?

One of my students pointed me to this thread because I'd recently told 'em off for writing He meant for. in a similar sentence.

Why do you need the for after meant?

Xelebes · Feb 22, 2011

pdr said:
a US - UK/Commonwealth thing?

One of my students pointed me to this thread because I'd recently told 'em off for writing He meant for. in a similar sentence.

Why do you need the for after meant?

Mean = be refering to
Mean for = intend for
Mean to = intend to

Something like that. It is a verb+preposition combo that is native in West Germanic languages.

bonitakale · Feb 22, 2011

Well, "He meant us to find it," sounds more natural to me in narrative. In dialogue, especially a child's dialogue, I'd use the "for."

Like "Where it's at," which I never heard till I came to the midwest, it sounds very casual to me.

And, "The car needs washed," is just plain (a) wrong or (b) country, depending on who you talk to.

Jamesaritchie · Feb 22, 2011

maestrowork said:
"She meant us to find it" hurts my ears. You need the "for." I understand some people say that and it's okay to include in the dialogue if it's something the character would say. But in narrative, it's wrong.

For example, in my regional dialect people say things like "the car needs washed." It's colloquial and fine in dialogue, but grammatically it's incorrect. The correct sentence is "the car needs to be washed."

There's nothing at all wrong with the grammar in "the car needs washed."

tko · Feb 22, 2011

I love stirring up trouble!

Seems like some people like the "for", others don't. Interesting. I don't think there is grammatical reason of any type for the "for," except that it's what we're used to. It either sounds smoother or it doesn't to your ears.

After extensive review (reading it a million times), I like the sentence better w/o the "for." But I initially wrote it with the "for," so that must have come more naturally.

Devil Ledbetter · Feb 22, 2011

Not everything needs a grammatical reason. It's the flow of the sentence, the rhythm, that matters.

pdr · Feb 22, 2011

Ah!

I still think it's a US/Commonwealth thing as we might say:

The parcel is meant for you.

But in the OP's original sentence we would leave out the for as unnecessary.

CaroGirl · Feb 23, 2011

Jamesaritchie said:
There's nothing at all wrong with the grammar in "the car needs washed."

Wow, really? It sounds totally wrong to me. I don't know the technical grammatical terms for why it's wrong (someone else might). The two options for the sentence are: "The car needs to be washed" and "The car needs washing" (not washed).

Terie · Feb 23, 2011

CaroGirl said:
Wow, really? It sounds totally wrong to me. I don't know the technical grammatical terms for why it's wrong (someone else might). The two options for the sentence are: "The car needs to be washed" and "The car needs washing" (not washed).

Standard English does not allow for two consecutive conjugated verbs. The sentence is absolutely wrong as far as standard English goes.

If it's being used as dialect, where standard English rules don't have to be applied, it's fine to use.

It is not, however, correct.

CaroGirl · Feb 23, 2011

Terie said:
Standard English does not allow for two consecutive conjugated verbs. The sentence is absolutely wrong as far as standard English goes.

If it's being used as dialect, where standard English rules don't have to be applied, it's fine to use.

It is not, however, correct.

Yeah, that's the one. Thanks, Terie!

PinkAmy · Feb 23, 2011

In my opinion, it doesn't matter if some people talk that way or some don't, what matters is your character's voice and how he would say it. I'd probably go with She obviously wanted us to find it- because it's sticking with the MC's POV and adding the adverb shows the MC's opinion/judgment because told from the first person POV, he doesn't really know what's in her mind.

Rufus Coppertop · Feb 24, 2011

Jamesaritchie said:
There's nothing at all wrong with the grammar in "the car needs washed."

Does this sign belong to you? :sarcasm

those pesky little unnecessary words

tko

just thanks fore everything

LaceWing

Chase

It Takes All of Us to End Racism

ResearchGuy

Resident Curmudgeon

Xelebes

Delerium ex Ennui

Mollfie

maestrowork

Fear the Death Ray

Susan Coffin

Tell it like it Is

blacbird

Jstwatchin

Where's my head?

pdr

Xelebes

Delerium ex Ennui

bonitakale

Jamesaritchie

tko

just thanks fore everything

Devil Ledbetter

Come on you stranger, you legend,

pdr

CaroGirl

Living the dream

Terie

Writer is as Writer does

CaroGirl

Living the dream

PinkAmy

New kid, be gentle!

Rufus Coppertop