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rugcat
02-19-2011, 09:09 AM
The House voted 240-145, on a mostly partisan vote, to strip federal funding from Planned Parenthood.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/02/18/planned-parenthood-fundin_n_825258.html

Also, under most people's radar, the house passed an amendment, 244 to 181, to prohibit the Federal Communications Commission from using funds to carry out net neutrality regulations created last December.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/posttech/2011/02/house_votes_to_stop_funds_for.html

Go GOP!

tiny
02-19-2011, 09:11 AM
Unbelievable.

Wayne K
02-19-2011, 09:16 AM
Really fucking stupid

billythrilly7th
02-19-2011, 09:32 AM
I thought we all agreed that we were against the new FCC rules for fear it would ruin our access to porn. I had hippie friends asking me to sign petitions against the new rules and the awful FCC.

RE: abortion

I'm very pro choice, but don't think any tax dollars should be involved in it. At least I'm pretty sure I don't.

Good job today, Republicans.

Celia Cyanide
02-19-2011, 09:39 AM
I'm very pro choice, but don't think any tax dollars should be involved in it. At least I'm pretty sure I don't.

Good job today, Republicans.

I'd like to know how many tax dollars that went to Planned Parenthood actually paid for abortions.

Clair Dickson
02-19-2011, 09:40 AM
Planned Parenthood does much more than abortions. They also provide condoms to help prevent abortions, for example.

I love the notion of "only my version of what is moral is the acceptable one" that some folks have. But I don't have enough money to get my opinion heard in Congress...

LOG
02-19-2011, 09:47 AM
Merge? (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=205269) (Maybe not...)

While I do fear the gov taking control of the net, AFAIK, the FCC regs are only about making sure ISPs can't play favorites and keeping them content-neutral. I could be wrong, I can't find any sort of outline for what the FCC Net Neutrality order would actually contain.
Unless I see that happening though, I'll take the formalized net neutrality (as opposed to our current de facto version) over having none.

billythrilly7th
02-19-2011, 09:47 AM
I'd like to know how many tax dollars that went to Planned Parenthood actually paid for abortions.

:Shrug:

I have no idea.

We have a zillion dollar deficit.

This seems like a solid cut. Pay for your own family planning, condoms, abortions etc.

I wish I could be in charge of the budget. I'd balance the budget in about 10 minutes.

blacbird
02-19-2011, 09:59 AM
I have no idea.

Says everything.

Sarah Madara
02-19-2011, 10:00 AM
I'd like to know how many tax dollars that went to Planned Parenthood actually paid for abortions.

In the first paragraph of the Huffington Post article: "Planned Parenthood does not currently spend federal money on abortion services."

Celia Cyanide
02-19-2011, 10:08 AM
In the first paragraph of the Huffington Post article: "Planned Parenthood does not currently spend federal money on abortion services."

Okay. So we're just defunding money for Planned Parenthood that goes to family planning services, STD checks, pelvic exams, and other health care services. Just making sure.

nighttimer
02-19-2011, 11:22 AM
:Shrug:

I have no idea.

We have a zillion dollar deficit.

This seems like a solid cut. Pay for your own family planning, condoms, abortions etc.

I wish I could be in charge of the budget. I'd balance the budget in about 10 minutes.

It's God's will you're not in charge of the budget. It's bad enough the Republicans are. They have no idea either.

It's a "solid cut" if you don't know diddly about what else Planned Parenthood does.


This is a big win for Rep. Mike Pence, the Indiana Republican whose deficit-minded crusade against Planned Parenthood hinges not on the argument that taxpayer money shouldn't pay for abortions (the Hyde Amendment put a stop to that in the mid 1970s), but on the conviction that taxpayer money should not go to organizations that provide abortion services, regardless of what else they might do.

Pence's plan, which will likely stall in the Senate, would mean the end of federal support for an organization that each year provides more than 800,000 women with breast exams, more than 4 million Americans with testing and treatment for sexually transmitted diseases, and 2.5 million people with contraception, which, not for nothing, is the stuff that prevents unintended pregnancy, and thus abortion, to begin with.

http://www.salon.com/news/abortion/index.html?story=/politics/war_room/2011/02/18/traister_speier_abortion


It's like George Carlin said. Republicans love you for the nine months you're in the womb. Once you're out they don't give a fuck about about you.

Shadow Dragon
02-19-2011, 11:34 AM
Since it was a partisan vote, it should fail to pass the Senate. At least I really hope Democrats don't fall for the same exact trick they did with Acorn. Though it wouldn't surprise me if Obama decided to play along with this. You know, for the sake of bipartisanship.

Devil Ledbetter
02-19-2011, 04:51 PM
Congress is behaving as though safe sex is a luxury to be reserved for the rich and well insured. This isn't about abortion, which precious little federal funding goes to (if you don't believe that, read up on the "The Hyde Amendment.") Others have already stated what's getting defunded. 33% of Planned Parenthood's operating budget comes from the federal government.

No one should have to ask why people need affordable, safe access to birth control, HIV testing, STD treatment or cancer screening. If this goes through the senate, we will watch the rate of teen and unwanted pregnancies, abortion, STDs, HIV/AIDS and cancer deaths steadily rise.

“Under the guise of deficit reduction, House Republicans are working aggressively to eliminate the Title X program, which has provided lifesaving preventive and primary care for low-income women since President Nixon signed it into law in 1970. Health centers funded through Title X save women’s lives by detecting breast and cervical cancer at early stages, by offering testing and treatment for sexually transmitted infections, screening for high blood pressure, and providing immunizations. These clinics also prevent nearly a million unintended pregnancies every year, thus reducing the need for abortion. And family planning also saves the government money — about $3.74 for every dollar invested.Source. (http://www.commondreams.org/newswire/2011/02/15-15)

childeroland
02-19-2011, 06:20 PM
What are the chances the Senate will cave on this stuff? On any or all of it?

billythrilly7th
02-19-2011, 06:23 PM
It's God's will you're not in charge of the budget.

.

Nah. We need a balanced budget. I'd see that we had one.

You'd be happy in the end.

firedrake
02-19-2011, 06:27 PM
This seems like a solid cut. Pay for your own family planning, condoms, abortions etc.



I hope to God you're taking the piss.

billythrilly7th
02-19-2011, 06:30 PM
I hope to God you're taking the piss.

I don't know what that means.

firedrake
02-19-2011, 06:36 PM
I don't know what that means.

Having a laugh.

You don't really mean what you said.

billythrilly7th
02-19-2011, 06:37 PM
Having a laugh.

You don't really mean what you said.

No, I mean what I said.

Sorry, mate.

firedrake
02-19-2011, 06:39 PM
No, I mean what I said.

Sorry, mate.

Wow.

Cold.

I hope no female relative of yours is never in need of their services.

billythrilly7th
02-19-2011, 06:43 PM
Wow.

Cold.

I hope no female relative of yours is never in need of their services.

Not worried about it.

If Planned Parenthood doesn't have federal funding, you will still be able to get an abortion or buy condoms.

That's all I'm worried about. Once again, I'm VERY pro choice.

firedrake
02-19-2011, 06:46 PM
Not worried about it.

If Planned Parenthood doesn't have federal funding, you will still be able to get an abortion or buy condoms.

That's all I'm worried about. Once again, I'm VERY pro choice.

And screening for cervical cancer, STDs?

How do you propose that people who can't afford healthcare pay for these services?

Mr Flibble
02-19-2011, 06:49 PM
So adding an extra million people(the number of pregnancies avoided) into the mix, probably mostly to people who can't afford them(or like, they could afford birth control) is going to help the situation...how? It'll make poor people even poorer, won't it?

Or another way to look at it - Maybe they want to cut down on unmarried peoples having the smexy by practising abstinence. I could see that but....even if I'm married, if I can't afford birth control, I'll need to abstain from my wifely duties? If I don't, I then can't afford/or am not allowed to have an abortion. So now I have a baby and I'm even poorer.

So, they want everyone who can't afford birth control to be celibate? Even if they are married and therefore are morally fine with playing hide the sausage? Only people who have the money to afford birth control should the dirty?

I'm fair fuddled. And probably up the duff too.

Don
02-19-2011, 06:52 PM
33% of Planned Parenthood's operating budget comes from the federal government.

I'd recommend they redirect the money they've spent lobbying Congress into education and fund-raising activities to encourage people to support their activities willingly.

How many people bemoaning this cut have written a check to Planned Parenthood in the last decade... or ever?

Or paid for a less-fortunate relative or friend to get the services they need?

Devil Ledbetter
02-19-2011, 07:00 PM
Nah. We need a balanced budget. Planned Parenthood is not even a drop in the bucket of the federal budget. It's $330 million out of a requested budget of $3.83 trillion. Anyone who thinks that's worthwhile needs to retake third grade arithmetic. The fact is, government social spending will go UP with the increase in poverty cases of AIDS, and unwanted pregnancies leading to kids being born that the government has to feed, educate, house and provide healthcare for because they refused to help prevent those pregnancies.

This is stepping over hundred-dollar bills to pick up pennies.

The federal budget for 2011 is projected at $3.83 trillion in total spending.[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_United_States_federal_budget#cite_note-chantrill-6) This is to include: $787.6 billion in pensions, $898 billion in health care expenditures, $140.9 billion for education, $928.5 billion in defense spending, $464.6 billion in welfare spending, $57.3 billion in protective services such as police, fire, law courts, $104.2 billion for transportation, $29 billion in general government expenses, $151.4 billion in other spending including basic research, and $250.7 billion on interest payments.Source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_United_States_federal_budget).

Notice they don't even bother listing the budget items in the millions. Make no mistake, this isn't about saving money. It's about vilifying human sexuality, punishing the poor for the "crime" of being poor and shoving underprivileged girls and women back into the era of barefoot and pregnant.

billythrilly7th
02-19-2011, 07:01 PM
And screening for cervical cancer, STDs?

How do you propose that people who can't afford healthcare pay for these services?

Uh, didn't we just pass a healthcare bill so people can have affordable healthcare?

Enough double dipping.

I propose that people have health insurance. Through their company or through their OWN pocket.

Enough with the nanny state.

Let Planned Parenthood raise money like all the other organizations out there.

George Clooney can do it.

It's not the tax payers job any more to prop up organizations.

WE HAVE A ZILLION DOLLAR DEFICIT!!!! Stuff has to go.

It's not easy.

When we bring our deficits to an acceptable level we can then bring back some stuff maybe.

Devil Ledbetter
02-19-2011, 07:03 PM
I'd recommend they redirect the money they've spent lobbying Congress into education and fund-raising activities to encourage people to support their activities willingly.

How many people bemoaning this cut have written a check to Planned Parenthood in the last decade... or ever?

Or paid for a less-fortunate relative or friend to get the services they need?I've written checks to Planned Parenthood. Not only that, 25% of their operating budget comes from fund-raising. That's their operating budget for healthcare for the poor -- not their lobbying arm. Consider they wouldn't need that lobbying arm if there weren't so many fools who believe birth control is a bad idea.

The same people who put PP in that position sit around and bitch about PP spending money defending themselves against that.

billythrilly7th
02-19-2011, 07:03 PM
Planned Parenthood is not even a drop in the bucket of the federal budget. It's $330 million out of a requested budget of $3.83 trillion. t.

Everything is a drop in the bucket.

But if you start slashing it all adds up.

I could say let's cut pig vegetation research in Oregon. We only spend 12 million on that.

Get rid of it!

We DONT HAVE ANY MONEY.

billythrilly7th
02-19-2011, 07:08 PM
So adding an extra million people(the number of pregnancies avoided) into the mix, probably mostly to people who can't afford them(or like, they could afford birth control) is going to help the situation...how? .

So, it's your contention that a women who has an unwanted pregnancy will just throw up her hands and go "I guess I'm having the baby" if Planned Parenthood is defunded.

I like to think people are a little more resourceful than that.

I'm quite confident that if congress defunded Planned Parenthood tomorrow, that in ten years from now, there'd be Planned Parenthood. Operating just fine.

More fundraising efforts, better management, etc.

It's like after Clinton signed the welfare reform act.

WHAT WILL HAPPEN TO ALL THESE PEOPLE? OH MY GOD!

They got jobs. It was one of the best pieces of legistation ever.

All would be well in the abortion birth control std services world if Planned Parenthood was defunded by TAX DOLLARS.

Not earth dollars. But tax dollars.

Devil Ledbetter
02-19-2011, 07:08 PM
Let Planned Parenthood raise money like all the other organizations out there. They already do.


WE HAVE A ZILLION DOLLAR DEFICIT!!!! Stuff has to go.


We don't have a zillion dollar deficit. Go look at what the government is spending the most money on. Planned Parenthood is irrelevant to a balanced budget. It's like trying to balance your household budget when you live in a mansion and own 2 superyachts and 4 private golf courses, but you're going to fix everything by not buying shoelaces for your kids anymore.

Cutting Planned Parenthood will increase human misery.

billythrilly7th
02-19-2011, 07:10 PM
They already do.




Cutting Planned Parenthood will increase human misery.

A. Raise More.
B. I disagree.

Mr Flibble
02-19-2011, 07:12 PM
B. I disagree.

An extra million unwanted pregnancies will make people happier? Please explain why you don't think it will increase human misery. I'm quite genuinely interested.

billythrilly7th
02-19-2011, 07:12 PM
So, they want everyone who can't afford birth control to be celibate? Even if they are married and therefore are morally fine with playing hide the sausage? Only people who have the money to afford birth control should the dirty?

.

If between you AND your partner, you can't afford a box of condoms, then you don't deserve to have sex.

regdog
02-19-2011, 07:14 PM
Way to go. Defund healthcare services for poor and under insured women.

Mr Flibble
02-19-2011, 07:18 PM
If between you AND your partner, you can't afford a box of condoms, then you don't deserve to have sex.

I see. And not being able to consummate my legal union makes human misery less because....???

Are you really saying that only rich/moderately well off people deserve sex? Really?

Wow.

And they say the class divide is bad over here....

regdog
02-19-2011, 07:20 PM
If between you AND your partner, you can't afford a box of condoms, then you don't deserve to have sex.

That comment is uncalled for. Many people have lost their jobs and are under employed. They struggle to pay their rent, mortgages, buy food, pay for medicine,. health care, utilities, etc.

Just because people's income can only be stretched far enough to cover the basic necessities DOES NOT mean they don't deserve to have sex is ridiculous. Especially when there is an organization that can provide pregnancy prevention. Sex is not a right of those with money.

Devil Ledbetter
02-19-2011, 07:21 PM
If between you AND your partner, you can't afford a box of condoms, then you don't deserve to have sex.
And if you can't afford HIV testing, you deserve to die of AIDS? And if you can't afford a pap smear, you deserve to die of cervical cancer? And if you can't afford a breast exam, you deserve to die of breast cancer? And if you can't afford a prostate exam, you deserve to die of prostate cancer? And if you can't afford treatment for syphilis, you deserve misery and permanent disability?

Yep, I was right. This is about thinking only the wealthy and well insured have any right to have sex.

billythrilly7th
02-19-2011, 07:23 PM
An extra million unwanted pregnancies will make people happier? Please explain why you don't think it will increase human misery. I'm quite genuinely interested.

Do you have a link that shows that if planned parenthood is defunded that will result in 1 million future unwanted pregnancies?

I'm going to bring up Howard Stern.

Many years ago at the Stern office, they had free bottled water. Everyone, at any time, could go grab one.

So what happened is the office was littered with half empty bottles. people taking one sip. Just madness.

Stern cut it off.

Guess what? None of his employees died of dehydration.

They were resiliant and able to figure out how to get water on their own.

The same happened with welfare recipients under Clinton.

The same would happen with defunding Planned parenthood.

And I don't believe that planned parenthood would miss a beat anyway.

They will raise the money themselves.

They'll be fine. Women who are pregnant with babies they dont want would be fine.

Everything would be okay.

It's okay.

firedrake
02-19-2011, 07:24 PM
How many people bemoaning this cut have written a check to Planned Parenthood in the last decade... or ever?



I have.

As for the contention that cutting welfare programmes will 'encourage' people to get jobs, where the hell are the jobs? Public sector jobs are being cut all over the place, that has a knock-on effect on the economy, a vicious downward spiral. This is the worst time for a government to be hacking into welfare programmes.

You can't pay for health insurance, however 'affordable' if you haven't got a job and the unemployment benefit has dried up, can you?

billythrilly7th
02-19-2011, 07:24 PM
That comment is uncalled for. Many people have lost their jobs and are under employed. They struggle to pay their rent, mortgages, buy food, pay for medicine,. health care, utilities, etc.

Just because people's income can only be stretched far enough to cover the basic necessities DOES NOT mean they don't deserve to have sex is ridiculous. Especially when there is an organization that can provide pregnancy prevention. Sex is not a right of those with money.

It was a joke.

Jeez.

Devil Ledbetter
02-19-2011, 07:25 PM
It was a joke.

Jeez.Oh, I didn't realize this had been teleported to Office Party.

billythrilly7th
02-19-2011, 07:25 PM
And if you can't afford HIV testing, you deserve to die of AIDS? And if you can't afford a pap smear, you deserve to die of cervical cancer? And if you can't afford a breast exam, you deserve to die of breast cancer? And if you can't afford a prostate exam, you deserve to die of prostate cancer? And if you can't afford treatment for syphilis, you deserve misery and permanent disability?

Yep, I was right. This is about thinking only the wealthy and well insured have any right to have sex.

Yeah, you were right.

:rolleyes:

billythrilly7th
02-19-2011, 07:27 PM
Oh, I didn't realize this had been teleported to Office Party.

Oh, no joking in P&C?

Noted.

billythrilly7th
02-19-2011, 07:29 PM
I have.

As for the contention that cutting welfare programmes will 'encourage' people to get jobs, where the hell are the jobs? Public sector jobs are being cut all over the place, that has a knock-on effect on the economy, a vicious downward spiral. This is the worst time for a government to be hacking into welfare programmes.

You can't pay for health insurance, however 'affordable' if you haven't got a job and the unemployment benefit has dried up, can you?

I don't think anyone is cutting into welfare. Clinton did about 15 years ago.

I think we're good.

Torrance
02-19-2011, 07:31 PM
Considering the recent rash of videos in which Planned Parenthood employees seem indifferent to statutory rape and prostitution involving 13 and 14 year old kids, I see no reason to fund this organization. Any organization that would willfully turn its back on people being VICTIMIZED (per the law) does not deserve to be funded by tax dollars. I'm sorry, but the government needs to find an organization that is TRULY concerned with the health and welfare of the people it serves. It has been apparent for some time that Planned Parenthood's political agenda has superseded its humanitarian mandate.

regdog
02-19-2011, 07:42 PM
It was a joke.

Jeez.

It isn't always easy to know when someone is joking. There are many people who do have that very hardline mentality.

Mr Flibble
02-19-2011, 07:44 PM
Do you have a link that shows that if planned parenthood is defunded that will result in 1 million future unwanted pregnancies?

Are you actually reading thsi thread? Cos Devil already did.


Quote:
“Under the guise of deficit reduction, House Republicans are working aggressively to eliminate the Title X program, which has provided lifesaving preventive and primary care for low-income women since President Nixon signed it into law in 1970. Health centers funded through Title X save women’s lives by detecting breast and cervical cancer at early stages, by offering testing and treatment for sexually transmitted infections, screening for high blood pressure, and providing immunizations. These clinics also prevent nearly a million unintended pregnancies every year, thus reducing the need for abortion. And family planning also saves the government money — about $3.74 for every dollar invested.
Source. (http://www.commondreams.org/newswire/2011/02/15-15)

I'm going to bring up Howard Stern.

Many years ago at the Stern office, they had free bottled water. Everyone, at any time, could go grab one.

So what happened is the office was littered with half empty bottles. people taking one sip. Just madness.

Stern cut it off.

Guess what? None of his employees died of dehydration.

They were resiliant and able to figure out how to get water on their own.

The same happened with welfare recipients under Clinton.

The same would happen with defunding Planned parenthood.

And I don't believe that planned parenthood would miss a beat anyway.

They will raise the money themselves.

They'll be fine. Women who are pregnant with babies they dont want would be fine.

Everything would be okay.

It's okay.


I don't even know where to start....Women who are pregnant with babies they don't want will be fine? Got a source for that? Do you mean by 'fine' 'desperate, moneyless and malnourished' or what? Please define 'fine'.

A baby is not a bottle of water, in case you'd not noticed.

billythrilly7th
02-19-2011, 07:44 PM
I gotta go.

In summary...IMO...

If Planned Parenthood is defunded, Planned Parenthood would stay in business and operate at full or almost full capacity by increasing fund raising methods.

In instances where services may have to be cut because fund efforts didnt reach full potential, I have full confidence in people, in most cases, to be resiliant and buy their own birth control and pay for their own abortions.

We have an unmanageable deficit and spending problem and like a fruit ninja we need to slash things.

I believe, you don't, that this is a good, acceptable cut.

Amongst many other cuts I would make including defense. Everything.

Have a nice day.

billythrilly7th
02-19-2011, 07:45 PM
It isn't always easy to know when someone is joking. There are many people who do have that very hardline mentality.

I understand. Sorry. I'll throw in a :) more often. :)

I do have to go.

Good talk.

Be back later.

icerose
02-19-2011, 08:11 PM
Considering the recent rash of videos in which Planned Parenthood employees seem indifferent to statutory rape and prostitution involving 13 and 14 year old kids, I see no reason to fund this organization. Any organization that would willfully turn its back on people being VICTIMIZED (per the law) does not deserve to be funded by tax dollars. I'm sorry, but the government needs to find an organization that is TRULY concerned with the health and welfare of the people it serves. It has been apparent for some time that Planned Parenthood's political agenda has superseded its humanitarian mandate.

Uh, did you actually READ the thread?? http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=205006

Here it is in case you lost it.

Planned Parenthood called the FBI immediately and the FBI are reviewing the photos. How is that willfully turning their backs on the victimized when they immediately contacted the proper authorities? Did you want them to take the girls into custody?

Here's the quote too. After the visits were over, Planned Parenthood notified local authorities of alleged human trafficking and learned of at least 11 visits to facilities in six states over one week "in which persons claiming to be involved in sex trafficking with minors asked for services for young women," according to Planned Parenthood statements.

Planned Parenthood then notified federal authorities, and the FBI is reviewing photos of at least one person making the sex trafficking claims, Schear said. There was no immediate confirmation from the FBI that a review was underway.

Celia Cyanide
02-19-2011, 08:15 PM
How many people bemoaning this cut have written a check to Planned Parenthood in the last decade... or ever?

I have written many, many checks to Planned Parenthood. I have no idea how much I've donated to them.

Celia Cyanide
02-19-2011, 08:20 PM
Let Planned Parenthood raise money like all the other organizations out there.

Why about all the other organizations out there that get federal funding? Why should they get it when Planned Parenthood doesn't? Just because Planned Parenthood also offers abortion services that tax dollars do NOT pay for?

Torrance
02-19-2011, 08:31 PM
Uhmmm... Icerose, I have zero doubt that Planned Parenthood knew it was being "stung" when it reported the sex trade scheme. The undercover "kids" had gone to 11 offices (or more) within a week. These kids were overzealous and it tipped PP. Notice that Planned Parenthood employees did not recoil and end the conversation, no, instead they cavalierly carried on the conversations. Were police called when a supposed 13 year old reported that the father of the baby she wanted to abort was 31? There are mandatory reporting laws in many states, and I have ZERO doubt that Planned Parenthood regularly ignores them. I have a real issue with an organization that actively seeks to undermine parents, and PP has a long history of that.

Celia Cyanide
02-19-2011, 08:37 PM
Uhmmm... Icerose, I have zero doubt that Planned Parenthood knew it was being "stung" when it reported the sex trade scheme.

Of course they did. They're being stung all the time. They're not stupid.

There are mandatory reporting laws in many states, and I have ZERO doubt that Planned Parenthood regularly ignores them.

I don't.

PinkAmy
02-19-2011, 08:40 PM
I have written many, many checks to Planned Parenthood. I have no idea how much I've donated to them.

:D My hero.
Planned parenthood does wonderful things for so many women and families and yes men too (who benefit from preventing unwanted pregnancies). Planned parenthood saves the lives of women each and every day.

A teenager once told me, "I am having unprotected sex, will you take me to planned parenthood."

Of course I did. She was filling out paperwork and had a few questions for me. One of the questions was age of first intercourse. She wrote 8. I questioned her about her answer and she said it was "just" her older brother.
We spoke afterwards and she explained I didn't need to worry about her younger sisters, because her brother got a boyfriend :(. She went on to tell me her "boyfriend" was a 35-year-old neighbor. If not for PP, those conversations would not have happened (and she probably would have wound up pregnant raising her family with the same misconceptions she had).

firedrake
02-19-2011, 08:43 PM
A teenager once told me, "I am having unprotected sex, will you take me to planned parenthood."

Of course I did. She was filling out paperwork and had a few questions for me. One of the questions was age of first intercourse. She wrote 8. I questioned her about her answer and she said it was "just" her older brother.
We spoke afterwards and she explained I didn't need to worry about her younger sisters, because her brother got a boyfriend :(. She went on to tell me her "boyfriend" was a 35-year-old neighbor. If not for PP, those conversations would not have happened (and she probably would have wound up pregnant raising her family with the same misconceptions she had).

I have a real issue with an organization that actively seeks to undermine parents, and PP has a long history of that.

So, what do you think would've happened to the girl in Pink Amy's post if she'd gone to her parents instead?

Snowstorm
02-19-2011, 08:47 PM
PinkAmy: what terrible circumstances for that teen, but you do show the value of Planned Parenthood from so many perspectives.

Cranky
02-19-2011, 09:00 PM
I'd recommend they redirect the money they've spent lobbying Congress into education and fund-raising activities to encourage people to support their activities willingly.

How many people bemoaning this cut have written a check to Planned Parenthood in the last decade... or ever?

Or paid for a less-fortunate relative or friend to get the services they need?

I don't write checks. I much prefer cold hard cash. (Have never taken the write offs for any charitable donations, btw, which would defeat the point of making it, TO ME) That said, never have written a check or given money to PP. Doesn't and won't stop me from "bemoaning" this bullshit. Just because I give my money elsewhere doesn't mean I think what Planned Parenthood does isn't important. Are you implying that if you're not helping to fund them out of your own pocket, you should shut up about whether or not they're defunded by the government? Maybe I'm slow because I'm still shaking off the sleep aids, but damn, that doesn't make any real sense at all, the way I understand it.

Shadow Dragon
02-19-2011, 09:02 PM
This has nothing to do with balancing the budget. Devil Ledbetter said it better than I could:

We don't have a zillion dollar deficit. Go look at what the government is spending the most money on. Planned Parenthood is irrelevant to a balanced budget. It's like trying to balance your household budget when you live in a mansion and own 2 superyachts and 4 private golf courses, but you're going to fix everything by not buying shoelaces for your kids anymore.

The government is not going to end the deficit or repay the debt just by cutting programs. This bill is purely about the GOP attacking an organization they don't like.

Snowstorm
02-19-2011, 09:09 PM
The government is not going to end the deficit or repay the debt just by cutting programs. This bill is purely about the GOP attacking an organization they don't like.


And this, is the bottom-line truth.

Celia Cyanide
02-19-2011, 09:17 PM
And this, is the bottom-line truth.

Indeed it is. The rhetoric I keep hearing is "Planned Parenthood provides abortion, therefore tax dollars should not go to Planned Parenthood." But the tax dollars do NOT go to abortion services. (and yeah, I did know about the Hyde ammendment, I was just being coy. ;) ) They are using abortion to demonize an organization that provides free STD screenings, cervical cancer screenings, and family planning services. I don't mind my tax dollars being used for that.

PinkAmy
02-19-2011, 09:20 PM
So, what do you think would've happened to the girl in Pink Amy's post if she'd gone to her parents instead?

If you knew her parents, you wouldn't have to ask. If she could have gone to her parents, chances are she would have never ended up thinking a 35 year old was an appropriate boyfriend, or that it was ok for her brother to rape her since he didn't have a girlfriend.

firedrake
02-19-2011, 09:23 PM
If you knew her parents, you wouldn't have to ask. If she could have gone to her parents, chances are she would have never ended up thinking a 35 year old was an appropriate boyfriend, or that it was ok for her brother to rape her since he didn't have a girlfriend.

i thought as much. I was just curious as to what Torrance would say, given his assertion that PP "actively seeks to undermine parents".

PinkAmy
02-19-2011, 09:25 PM
i thought as much. I was just curious as to what Torrance would say, given his assertion that PP "actively seeks to undermine parents".

I would bet that most people who seek PP services are adult-- considering most of the people who have sex are adult. I've had lots of friends use PP for their gynecology health, people who never got abortions or wanted them.

billythrilly7th
02-19-2011, 09:35 PM
Why about all the other organizations out there that get federal funding? Why should they get it when Planned Parenthood doesn't? Just because Planned Parenthood also offers abortion services that tax dollars do NOT pay for?

They shouldn't.

Everything is getting slashed in the Thrilly Budget.

Celia Cyanide
02-19-2011, 09:37 PM
They shouldn't.

Everything is getting slashed in the Thrilly Budget.

They are, though. This isn't Thrilly Budget. There are other orgs that are are still getting funding, while Planned Parenthood is being denied funding, despite how important their work is.

billythrilly7th
02-19-2011, 09:43 PM
They are, though. This isn't Thrilly Budget. There are other orgs that are are still getting funding, while Planned Parenthood is being denied funding, despite how important their work is.

I don't agree with that obviously.

Everything should be getting slashed.

Im not denying that the republicans are doing this for the reasons that they don't like planned parenthood.

I just have no problem with it from a budgetary, or philosophical nanny state perspective. AND ..most importantly believe..like I've said..that PP will be just fine without the tax dollars. They aint folding up shop.

Don
02-19-2011, 10:21 PM
I don't write checks. I much prefer cold hard cash. (Have never taken the write offs for any charitable donations, btw, which would defeat the point of making it, TO ME) That said, never have written a check or given money to PP. Doesn't and won't stop me from "bemoaning" this bullshit. Just because I give my money elsewhere doesn't mean I think what Planned Parenthood does isn't important. Are you implying that if you're not helping to fund them out of your own pocket, you should shut up about whether or not they're defunded by the government? Maybe I'm slow because I'm still shaking off the sleep aids, but damn, that doesn't make any real sense at all, the way I understand it.
What I'm "bemoaning" is the general belief that taking money from someone and redirecting it in a way one personally believes would be beneficial to society is somehow charitable. What I'm "bemoaning" is a political game that makes an instant enemy out of anyone whose views on how that extorted money is spent we don't agree with.

In a free society the thrillster would be as free to attempt to collect a billion and a half a year to send to egypt to prop up Mubarak, as would those who wish to collect a billion and a half for Planned Parenthood.

And those who have an extra dollar to spend would be free to donate it to either cause, or to neither. My bet's that most people would rather their dollars go to Sally down the street than a dictator half a world away.

Instead, we've politicized society to the point where we've become a bunch of vultures squawking over the last bits of meat on the bones of a dying coercive carcass, which everyone somehow imagines our politicians will wave their hands over and bring back to life. Meanwhile, we bemoan every decision the politicians make, yet argue they need even more power over our society, while cheering the efforts in the middle east to wrest power from the politicians and return it to the people.

Srsly, does anybody feel the government really aligns itself with the needs of society as they see it anymore? Why does everybody keep fighting over the same empty well? That's what doesn't make any sense to me.

When are we going to quit pretending to be shocked that politicians would rather spend money propping up a dictator half a world away than on Sally not getting pregnant? And when are we going to quit giving politicians the power to make those decisions?

Celia Cyanide
02-19-2011, 10:29 PM
What I'm "bemoaning" is the general belief that taking money from someone and redirecting it in a way one personally believes would be beneficial to society is somehow charitable. What I'm "bemoaning" is a political game that makes an instant enemy out of anyone whose views on how that extorted money is spent we don't agree with.

But that is not what Cranky is "bemoaning." Like her, I was a little confused as to why you asked that question. How many of us, who do not agree with this decision, have written checks to Planned Parenthood? Some have. Some have not. As one who has, I don't think Cranky has to in order to to agree with me that this is a bad decision. I don't know if that is what you were implying, but it sounded that way.

Clearly you don't agree with the concept of taxes. But for those of us who do, why should we not have opinions on where our tax dollars go? Those of us who are "bemoaning" this do feel that Planned Parenthood is an organization worthy of receiving this funding.

Don
02-19-2011, 10:36 PM
But that is not what Cranky is "bemoaning." Like her, I was a little confused as to why you asked that question. How many of us, who do not agree with this decision, have written checks to Planned Parenthood? Some have. Some have not. As one who has, I don't think Cranky has to in order to to agree with me that this is a bad decision. I don't know if that is what you were implying, but it sounded that way.

Clearly you don't agree with the concept of taxes. But for those of us who do, why should we not have opinions on where our tax dollars go? Those of us who are "bemoaning" this do feel that Planned Parenthood is an organization worthy of receiving this funding.
Because opinions don't matter. What the people want doesn't matter. Foreign aid to dictators won't be cut to finance Planned Parenthood. Not a single military base in 130 countries will be closed to feed the hungry. Not one politician will lose his job because you get freedom-frisked at the airport. Not one bureaucrat was fired over Madoff or the BP oil spill. The Supremes aren't going to report to work tomorrow and suddenly decide that DOMA was unconstitutional after all.

It's a fun mental exercise to imagine that giving a group of people unlimited power over our lives will somehow solve all of society's ills, but at some point we have to look around and realize it's not working. I'd prefer we not wait until we're in the situation we see in the middle east.

Celia Cyanide
02-19-2011, 10:38 PM
So why did you ask that question?

Sarah Madara
02-19-2011, 10:53 PM
It's a fun mental exercise to imagine that giving a group of people unlimited power over our lives will somehow solve all of society's ills, but at some point we have to look around and realize it's not working. I'd prefer we not wait until we're in the situation we see in the middle east.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Are you in favor of direct democracy instead of a representative republic? As far as I can tell, California has proven that to be a disaster. When everyone votes on every issue, there's no accountability for it not working. So, for example, the "people" can vote that they don't ever want to pay more taxes, then vote for ten new expensive programs, and then whine and moan that the "government" can't balance the budget. As imperfect as the representative system is, at least there are people who have to answer for their decisions. Mob rule is a step from anarchy.

JMHO as a Californian :)

Devil Ledbetter
02-19-2011, 11:07 PM
They'll be fine. Women who are pregnant with babies they dont want would be fine.

Everything would be okay.

It's okay.Yes, women have always been resourceful. Before birth control was readily available, they had other ways of addressing unwanted pregnancies.

http://renewedwife.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/wire-hanger.jpg

Maybe this could work on prostate cancer too!

billythrilly7th
02-19-2011, 11:08 PM
Oooh...he posts the hangar.

The Godwin equivalent in an abortion thread.

Devil Ledbetter
02-19-2011, 11:15 PM
Oooh...he posts the hangar.

The Godwin equivalent in an abortion thread.She, darlin'. She.

You said everything was going to be fine if we eliminate birth control access for the poor. You said they're a resourceful bunch and will figure it out. Time to buy stock in wire hangers.

Seriously though, some smart capitalist should open a low cost birth control/reproductive care clinic franchise. A down economy, record unemployment, a media that exudes sex 24/7 ... The market is ripe for this.

Maybe they can repurpose all those shuttered Borders bookstores.

dolores haze
02-19-2011, 11:17 PM
Oooh...she posts the hangar.


You don't fear a return to the days of the coat hanger abortion, Billy?

billythrilly7th
02-19-2011, 11:22 PM
You don't fear a return to the days of the coat hanger abortion, Billy?

No. Not as long as abortion is legal. Which it is. And will stay.

I'm going over the same stuff over and over.

I beautifully summarized my position a couple hours ago in an earlier post.

Everything will be fine whether taxpayers fund or do not fund PP.

Everyone is so nervous and melodramatic these days about everything.

The sky is always falling. The slippery slope is always caked in a foot of ice. I cant take it anymore.

"We should have common sense gun control laws"

THEY'RE GONNA TAKE MY GUNS!

"We shouldn't fund planned parenthood."

THEY'RE GOING TO BE USING HANGARS!!

"We should have scanners at airports"

OH MY GOD, WE LIVE IN A POLICE STATE!!!


Stop the insanity, a fitness woman once said.

I gotta go again.

Be back later.

billythrilly7th
02-19-2011, 11:23 PM
She, darlin'. She.

You said everything was going to be fine if we eliminate birth control access for the poor. You said they're a resourceful bunch and will figure it out. Time to buy stock in wire hangers.

Seriously though, some smart capitalist should open a low cost birth control/reproductive care clinic franchise. A down economy, record unemployment, a media that exudes sex 24/7 ... The market is ripe for this.

Maybe they can repurpose all those shuttered Borders bookstores.

A. Sorry. She.
B. Now you are thinking out of the box. This is what I'm talking about. Great idea. JiffyBort.

Gotta go.

Celia Cyanide
02-19-2011, 11:26 PM
No. Not as long as abortion is legal. Which it is. And will stay.

Do you really think that people who cannot afford abortions don't try to self-abort now? Even though it is legal?

dolores haze
02-19-2011, 11:28 PM
Being an annual contributor to Planned Parenthood hopefully qualifies me as having a right to an opinion on this issue. I know that my personal funds go to pay for abortions for women who could not otherwise afford one. I am perfectly okay with that. I also know my taxes go to fund the other services that Planned parenthood provides. I am more than okay with that.

As a much younger and poorer woman I received services from Planned Parenthood, and I continue to support them so that others can have the same access to services that I needed and availed myself of.

I've pointed numerous young men and women towards Planned Parenthood, in both personal and professional capacities.

Planned Parenthood has already asked me to send more money to help them fight off this latest attack. I'll send money that I wish would go to services instead of yet another battle for survival of an important and necessary organization. *sigh*

Devil Ledbetter
02-19-2011, 11:37 PM
A. Sorry. She.
B. Now you are thinking out of the box. This is what I'm talking about. Great idea. JiffyBort.
A. It's okay. I do have a male avatar. You wouldn't believe how often AWers refer to me as "David Ledbetter."

B. Love the name. Reminded me of this Oatmeal comic (http://theoatmeal.com/comics/abortion_clinic). (Don't worry, it's funny.)

C. We still disagree, but at least you made me lol.


Dolores Haze: I agree completely about donations. I hate that they have to keep spending money to fight for what should be basic rights: safe sex and family planning.

Lyra Jean
02-19-2011, 11:53 PM
Planned Parenthood was great for me. I was able to get more birth control, the same exact one my doctor prescribed me, when I was unemployed with no health insurance and couldn't afford to go to a doctor.

Since I was married and my husband works we apparently made too much money to be eligible for any sort of aid whatsoever. Meanwhile we were eating at his grandparents house at least once or twice a week because it was free food. We had the choice of rent for the month or food. It wasn't pretty.

Now, I'm working and have health insurance. We still struggle but not as bad. You should have seen the looks some people gave me when I got lost trying to find the PP and asked for directions. I got a lot of I don't knows.

backslashbaby
02-20-2011, 03:37 AM
I certainly don't think their funding should be cut.

I haven't donated $$, but I've done a lot of free secretarial/telephone work for them as a volunteer since high school.

One other way to support them, which I've done for years (and not for some years) is to go there for your annual exams, etc. It's a sliding pay scale, so it helps their bottom line if you go in and pay what you'd pay a private gyno.

PS, they're better. If you have any 'female complaints', anyway. I'm so sick of getting brushed off by docs who focus so much on women having babies, I'm going back to PP again now, AAMOF. I've always found the gynos to be top-notch.

I've also had to give up my insurance because it would be cheaper to pay the multiple thousands in premiums directly towards my healthcare each year. OMG, though. The private docs are weirding out on me now. Instead of telling me I need any tests for anything (I do, for an ulcer-type situation), they scoot me out of the office after taking my $120 cash.

I feel more comfortable now with agencies that don't freak out if you're uninsured! I didn't see that one coming.

Petroglyph
02-20-2011, 04:02 AM
Hello,
I worked at PP for about 2 and a half years. I thought it would be nice to see teenagers before they got pregnant sometimes. So I got a job at a contraceptive/gyn site. And it was nice to see the teenagers before they got pregnant. I counseled hundreds of teenagers about safer sex, STD testing, making decisions, helping them get the kind of birth control that would work best for them. What I didn't necessarily expect was the the other types of patients I got to see. A 60 year old immigrant woman who hadn't had a Pap in 20 years but she was worried because she started bleeding again. Yeah, advanced uterine cancer. Very sad, but I helped her get some answers and she went home for care (well, actually she went home to die because it was diagnosed so late). A young man who was gang raped. Many young women who were raped. A wife of a man who bashed PP everytime he walked in the door but they came because that was the only place they can afford birth control, so they came. A 40 yo woman with no health insurance who found a breast lump. Got her screened, tested, diagnosed and hooked up with a state payor for treatment.

Oh, the bullets were nice. And the arson. And the grafitti.

Let's see what else. We were all very familiar with the reporting requirements for statutory rape, etc. Funnily enough, I'm the resource person at my private practice about "what are those requirements again? Do I have to report 'xyz'?" Um, yeah, you do. But L i v e A c t i o n doesn't ever sting private practices. Odd how their many failed sting attempts don't make it on Youtube, hmmmm?

To see me for a 15 minute birth control consult at PP, you would pay $35 and I could help you get on an appropriate birth control for $9 a pack from Walmart. To see me in private practice, you'd have to shell out $150 to get through the door. But if you don't have insurance, I'd still get you a script you could fill at Walmart.

Can women still get legal abortions if PP fell by the wayside? Yeah, I guess, if they live in the right place, like a city with a teaching hospital where residents can learn on them, I should think. And, if they are over 17, they can walk into any pharmacy and buy Plan B over the counter, as long as they choose the right pharmacy where the pharmacist doesn't have a moral dilemma selling them Plan B.

PP uses evidenced based guidelines for women's health and they are so incredibly scrutinized by internal and external inspectors. People look at PP, they often don't look at other reproductive clinics. Consider the horror in PA recently.

Anyway, just some rambling thoughts from someone who used to work there. I saw a lot of people who didn't have insurance or other health care choices, people who were scared and worried. And I think I provided really good care for them. It was very satisfying. I'm quite certain I prevented a whole lot of abortions. My favorite patients were the teenagers who wanted IUDs so they could get through high school and college without getting pregnant. Yes, I counseled them on the risk of PID. No, you do not have to have a history of pregnancy for an IUD.

I also saw many women who were status post abortion and wanted an effective birth control method so they wouldn't have another unintended pregnancy.

So....what will the lack of federal funding do? If it drives up the cost to the self-pay patient, then they might not be able to be seen at all. Until they are pregnant, because our state medicaid pays for abortions and deliveries. So if they can't afford to may more for an office visit to get pills, they'll soon qualify for state health care dollars.

Anyway, if you have any questions about what it is like to take care of patients at PP, I can try to answer them. I would also respectfully ask that you take into consideration that most of the people who work at PP are caring professionals who take the work we do extremely seriously.

BTW, I'll delete this post after awhile so if you have questions, please don't quote the post. Thank you!

Cranky
02-20-2011, 04:59 AM
What I'm "bemoaning" is the general belief that taking money from someone and redirecting it in a way one personally believes would be beneficial to society is somehow charitable. What I'm "bemoaning" is a political game that makes an instant enemy out of anyone whose views on how that extorted money is spent we don't agree with.

In a free society the thrillster would be as free to attempt to collect a billion and a half a year to send to egypt to prop up Mubarak, as would those who wish to collect a billion and a half for Planned Parenthood.

And those who have an extra dollar to spend would be free to donate it to either cause, or to neither. My bet's that most people would rather their dollars go to Sally down the street than a dictator half a world away.

Instead, we've politicized society to the point where we've become a bunch of vultures squawking over the last bits of meat on the bones of a dying coercive carcass, which everyone somehow imagines our politicians will wave their hands over and bring back to life. Meanwhile, we bemoan every decision the politicians make, yet argue they need even more power over our society, while cheering the efforts in the middle east to wrest power from the politicians and return it to the people.

Srsly, does anybody feel the government really aligns itself with the needs of society as they see it anymore? Why does everybody keep fighting over the same empty well? That's what doesn't make any sense to me.

When are we going to quit pretending to be shocked that politicians would rather spend money propping up a dictator half a world away than on Sally not getting pregnant? And when are we going to quit giving politicians the power to make those decisions?

Well, Don, we all always know what you're bemoaning. That wasn't my question. My question was: are you suggesting that if we don't put our charitable funds where our mouths are, so to speak, that we really don't have room to complain about PP being defunded by the government? I wasn't asking what you thought, because I already knew.

MacAllister
02-20-2011, 05:16 AM
I've done a fair bit of time as an escort, walking people through the picket lines for their appointments. Most of the women I escorted weren't actually there for abortions, either; but it was all the same to the picketers--who didn't bother to differentiate between people who were there for HIV tests, pap smears, counseling, breast exams, or birth control.

Clovia
02-20-2011, 05:43 AM
I don't know what the hell I would have done without PP in college. I guess continued to be sick as a dog because my ovaries went insane, when birth control pills were all I needed to get them to behave.

And I wouldn't have known to go there if a friend in the dorms hadn't told me how much BCP cost through planned parenthood--I'd never had an exam, either.

nighttimer
02-20-2011, 07:59 AM
Nah. We need a balanced budget. I'd see that we had one.

You'd be happy in the end.

Doubt it.

We had a balanced budget and a surplus when Bill Clinton (http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2011/02/11/how_clinton_balanced_the_budget_108853.html) turned the keys over to the dry drunk frat boy, but Clinton gets more ridicule for getting a blow job than credit for exercising fiscal responsibility.

It didn't seem to make Republicans all that happy. They couldn't wait to replace Democratic spending with their own spending and you're kidding yourself if you think it's going to be any different now.

It was a joke.

Jeez.

Not really. Jokes are supposed to be funny and when they aren't they just kind of lie there flopping around like a landed trout gasping for air.

But even if it was funny (which it wasn't) there's not a damn thing amusing about a group of men in cheap suits making cynical decisions that so drastically impact the health of women.

Because opinions don't matter. What the people want doesn't matter.

I call bullshit.

We just bore witness to what the people in Egypt wanted being put into full effect and they threw out a greedy tyrant who had clung to power for 30 damn years. Who says it can't happen here?

It's cynical to the extreme to say things can't be changed. Malcolm X said when people cry about their condition, nothing happens, but when they stop crying and stand up they can bring about a change.

Agree or disagree with their methods or goals, the Tea Party (at least when it was still a grass roots movement before Dick Armey and the Koch Brothers body snatched it), made enough of a difference to revitalize a defalted Republican Party and inflict upon the Democrats one of the biggest beatdowns in American history. In Wisconsin, you have members of the American workng class fighting back against a clueless governor's craven attempt to strip away the rights they achieved through collective bargaining.

There's a difference between a realist and a cynic and the realist in me says these same House Republicans playing games with the health of women will have to stand before them in 2012 for reelection, and that's when many of these cold bastards that want to balance the budget on their backs will find themselves out on in the cold.

billythrilly7th
02-20-2011, 08:01 AM
.


Not really. Jokes are supposed to be funny and when they aren't they just kind of lie there flopping around like a landed trout gasping for air..

Read my George Costanza sig line.

:)

Thank you and good day.

Bartholomew
02-20-2011, 08:02 AM
If between you AND your partner, you can't afford a box of condoms, then you don't deserve to have sex.

(1 - [Redacted for sake of moderation]

(2 - People have sex regardless of possessing condoms. Having them around for free helps prevent massive, massive problems among society's poorest members.

MacAllister
02-20-2011, 08:09 AM
Walk it back, people. This is an important topic, and I'm a lot more inclined to start kicking butts than to close the thread and shut the discussion down.

Billy, I"m starting to get reported posts that you're trolling -- and you're definitely walking a very fine line.

Bart, you know better than to tell someone to fuck off, here. I'm going to give you some slack for excessive provocation -- but you need to edit that.

Celia Cyanide
02-20-2011, 08:38 AM
Well, Don, we all always know what you're bemoaning. That wasn't my question. My question was: are you suggesting that if we don't put our charitable funds where our mouths are, so to speak, that we really don't have room to complain about PP being defunded by the government? I wasn't asking what you thought, because I already knew.

Ironically, I'm seeing it the other way around...for those who think it doesn't matter if Planned Parenthood is defunded....will YOU donate money to them if it does happen? Will you make sure they get as much money as they did before their funding was taken away? And if not, (your reasons are your own) how can you be sure sure Planned Parenthood will be fine?

Celia Cyanide
02-20-2011, 08:44 AM
I've done a fair bit of time as an escort, walking people through the picket lines for their appointments. Most of the women I escorted weren't actually there for abortions, either; but it was all the same to the picketers--who didn't bother to differentiate between people who were there for HIV tests, pap smears, counseling, breast exams, or birth control.

I was a clinic escort, too, Mac! I never knew you did that! I couldn't do it after a while, because I got too busy with my full time job. But I loved it. I always got such good feedback from the patients, who would always tell me what a relief it was to see the escort vests. Some of the protesters were nice enough, but a few were clearly not right in the head.

blacbird
02-20-2011, 08:50 AM
This discussion represents nothing other than a quick preview of America as it will become if the TeaParty Socons gain full power over our political process. You don't want this kind of shit to happen? Be prepared to fight against it.

MacAllister
02-20-2011, 08:54 AM
I was a clinic escort, too, Mac! I never knew you did that! I couldn't do it after a while, because I got too busy with my full time job. But I loved it. I always got such good feedback from the patients, who would always tell me what a relief it was to see the escort vests. Some of the protesters were nice enough, but a few were clearly not right in the head.

It was really rewarding and amazing. Tensions at the time were really high, locally, but I met so many amazing people who were passionately committed to health education and family planning--unplanned pregnancy prevention, so damned crucial--and every day put their time, energy, and money towards that goal. The local PP staff made a real effort to reach out to other public and private community agencies to provide counseling and abortion alternatives on the premises, too.

I'm stunned that this organization is on the chopping block, when they work so very hard to provide birth control, education, and health care to people who otherwise would completely fall through the cracks and in the long run would cost society much, much more money, as a result of not receiving affordable preventative care.

This organization costs less total money yearly than four hours of war.

Especially appalling is the fact that the same Representatives passed funding for NASCAR (http://littlegreenfootballs.com/article/38104_GOP_House-_Planned_Parenthood_Bad_NASCAR_Good).

blacbird
02-20-2011, 09:04 AM
I'm stunned that this organization is on the chopping block,

Why?

when they work so very hard to provide birth control, education, and health care to people who otherwise would completely fall through the cracks

The Roman Catholic Church officially considers birth control tantamount to murder.

A big chunk of the most socially conservative portion of the U.S. political spectrum wants "education" to be "indoctrination", in their own "doctrine", of course.

Publicly-funded health care is considered satanic by most of these same people, and people "who would otherwise fall through the cracks" deserve to do so, because God has obviously condemned them.

So why are you surprised?

MacAllister
02-20-2011, 09:07 AM
Blac, I guess because so many of the people I see saying "so what?" right here aren't religiously motivated -- but I do think they're fatally short-sighted in ways that are extremely weird, and I can't quite wrap my mind around it. This seems such an obvious, non-partisan, and bedrock pragmatic issue to me, that I'm having a really hard time comprehending why it's not that obvious and pragmatic and non-partisan to anyone who even glances at the issue.

Zoombie
02-20-2011, 09:13 AM
Especially appalling is the fact that the same Representatives passed funding for NASCAR (http://littlegreenfootballs.com/article/38104_GOP_House-_Planned_Parenthood_Bad_NASCAR_Good).

Why does NASCAR need FEDERAL FUNDING?

I thought the point of NASCAR was to be an entertainment, an industry that pays for itself because people enjoy, heck, need escapism in their lives.

NASCAR should get all the funding it needs from it's fans. If it does not make enough money, it is presumably because not enough people find it entertaining for it to exist.

Planned Parenthood, on the other hand, is a HUGE positive force in our society. WHY IS IT GETTING A FUNDING CUT!?

What kind of out of touch morons are running this country?

nighttimer
02-20-2011, 09:47 AM
Blac, I guess because so many of the people I see saying "so what?" right here aren't religiously motivated -- but I do think they're fatally short-sighted in ways that are extremely weird, and I can't quite wrap my mind around it. This seems such an obvious, non-partisan, and bedrock pragmatic issue to me, that I'm having a really hard time comprehending why it's not that obvious and pragmatic and non-partisan to anyone who even glances at the issue.

Mac, you don't have to be H.L. Mencken to be skeptical of the American public's ability to tell the difference betweeen rose blossums and rancid bullshit even if they don't smell remotely alike.

Tell a bunch of men who will never get pregnant you're cutting off the cash to a organization that helps women who do, but you're saving a few million in the process and they'll yelp, "Yay for our team. 'Bout fuckin' time!"

As long as you're not coming to take away their beer or guns or porn, it's all good. Take their shit away. Just don't touch my shit.

Robert Heinlein explained it perfectly many years gone by.

Most people can't think, most of the remainder won't think, the small fraction who do think mostly can't do it very well. The extremely tiny fraction who think regularly, accurately, creatively, and without self-delusion- in the long run these are the only people who count...

And this was long before MSNBC, Fox News, talking heads on television and radio, smart-assed self-apointed "experts." bloggers, pundits, pollsters, consultants, and cheap politicians and demagouges came along to say, "Aw, don't waste your poor widdle brain trying to think for yourself. We got questions? We got answers. You sit your double-wide ass down on your sofa and eat your large pizza with extra cheese washing it down with a Diet Pepsi and we'll think FOR you."

rugcat
02-20-2011, 10:00 AM
This seems such an obvious, non-partisan, and bedrock pragmatic issue to me, that I'm having a really hard time comprehending why it's not that obvious and pragmatic and non-partisan to anyone who even glances at the issue.Only seven Republicans voted to keep funding, and eleven 11 Democrats voted with the majority to strip it. That seems pretty partisan to me.

The Tea Party, whatever their original intentions, has helped to install a new round of ultra conservatives -- and they are very much like the old social conservatives. Abstinence sex education is the only proper stance, sex outside of marriage a sin, and Planned Parenthood, which provides reproductive services without moral judgment is the devil.

As for some of the people on AW, it's only an extension of the belief that anything the government does is bad, whether it's helping fund health services or fighting wars -- it's all the same.

Unless the government wants to outlaw unions for public employees. Then they're just doing their proper job.

Bartholomew
02-20-2011, 10:00 AM
O.o

People picket Planned Parenthood!? To stop people from going in!? What the hell?

I don't really go in for social work, but if I knew when this was happening, I'd totally volunteer time as the 6"2' wall of solid muscle that shoves protesters out of the way.

My fiancee needed to get a pap smeer at PP. The first time she tried, she canceled the appointment because it was nerve wracking for her on a level that I'll never really understand. The second time she tried, she got to the front door, saw the security guard, and then literally fled back to my car. She finally got the test done, but it took a major muster of courage on her part, and a lot of calming words on my part.

If there'd been some kind of line in front of the place, making it even more intimidating...

nighttimer
02-20-2011, 10:13 AM
If there were a group of women gathered outside of an erectile dysfunction clinic laughing and calling guys clutching bottles of Viagra, "a bunch of limp, little dicks," maybe those men who think nothing about zeroing out Planned Parenthood would back the hell off.

MacAllister
02-20-2011, 10:21 AM
Mac, you don't have to be H.L. Mencken to be skeptical of the American public's ability to tell the difference betweeen rose blossums and rancid bullshit even if they don't smell remotely alike.
True. But so goddamned depressing I'm not quite sure where to put my frustration at confronting that blank and impenetrable wall of willfully stupid, gullible, and kinda-crazy.


The Tea Party, whatever their original intentions, has helped to install a new round of ultra conservatives -- and they are very much like the old social conservatives. Abstinence sex education is the only proper stance, sex outside of marriage a sin, and Planned Parenthood, which provides reproductive services without moral judgment is the devil.

Essentially I do see this as part of what's shaping up to look very much like "The New Misogyny: Even Nastier and More Blatant than the Garden Variety Anti-Woman Crap We've Known All Our Lives"

O.o

People picket Planned Parenthood!? To stop people from going in!? What the hell?
Yep. People picket PP. With signs and dolls covered in fake blood and matching tee-shirts and pre-rehearsed slogans they can all chant together while they link elbows and try to block the entrance from a "legal" distance.

If there were a group of women gathered outside of an erectile dysfunction clinic laughing and calling guys clutching bottles of Viagra, "a bunch of limp, little dicks," maybe those men who think nothing about zeroing out Planned Parenthood would back the hell off.
I've waited my whole life to hear someone ask, when a man is raped, whether or not he was dressed like a slut and therefore asking for it. (With a nod to Vince524, who recently noted he'd never heard the same question asked about a male rape victim, either.)

Bartholomew
02-20-2011, 10:43 AM
Yep. People picket PP. With signs and dolls covered in fake blood and matching tee-shirts and pre-rehearsed slogans they can all chant together while they link elbows and try to block the entrance from a "legal" distance.


Yay, I have a place to go when I'm feeling ornery.

I've always wanted to be a human bowling ball. :D

blacbird
02-20-2011, 10:48 AM
The Tea Party, whatever their original intentions, has helped to install a new round of ultra conservatives -- and they are very much like indistinguishable from the old social conservatives.

Editorial correction.

Anybody who doesn't understand this has been hibernating through the past year or so of U.S. domestic politics.

Bird of Prey
02-20-2011, 11:18 AM
I don't see this as a long term problem, but I do think it's a necessary cut right now, primarily because the priorities of the country have got to come to a head. The more social programs are cut - and it's not just PP, but Public Radio, Public Television, the heating aid to the elderly that Obama stuck in his package because he's a jerk - in fact all social programs should be on the chopping block now. Why?? Because I think Americans have to experience what it's like to do without - really do without - while they continue to prop up regimes in foreign countries and throw good lives away on undeclared wars.

We're engaged in conflicts that have cost over a trillion (http://costofwar.com/en/). That's an awful lot of money that should have gone to positive and productive programs, on American infrastructure, education and to help people with - for example - their heating bills, their health care, etc. or returned to Americans in a surplus. But as long as Americans don't correlate the real cost of warmongers in office to their standard of living, Americans will continue to see a steady decline in both their standard of living and the rescinding of freedoms, vital freedoms I might add, for women.

My sad conclusion is that the only way reasonable Americans are going to take a stand is when they're scared enough. The PP issue is pretty scary, but it's just the tip of the iceburg. And it all boils down to two things: the cost of war and the mentality of warmongers who are dominating American politics right now. Fighting is everything, a police state is fast approaching acceptable and the gentle spirit in the country that fosters humanity is being defeated. What's really unfortunate is that who we elected as Commander in Chief is another warmonger, and yet people don't want to see it. But I think that when enough Americans start to see the true cost of a warrior nation - the true cost of the warrior mentality - we'll start to see some serious American resistance, and with that courage will come the right track. . . .

nighttimer
02-20-2011, 02:11 PM
I don't see this as a long term problem, but I do think it's a necessary cut right now, primarily because the priorities of the country have got to come to a head. The more social programs are cut - and it's not just PP, but Public Radio, Public Television, the heating aid to the elderly that Obama stuck in his package because he's a jerk - in fact all social programs should be on the chopping block now. Why?? Because I think Americans have to experience what it's like to do without - really do without - while they continue to prop up regimes in foreign countries and throw good lives away on undeclared wars.

We're engaged in conflicts that have cost over a trillion (http://costofwar.com/en/). That's an awful lot of money that should have gone to positive and productive programs, on American infrastructure, education and to help people with - for example - their heating bills, their health care, etc. or returned to Americans in a surplus. But as long as Americans don't correlate the real cost of warmongers in office to their standard of living, Americans will continue to see a steady decline in both their standard of living and the rescinding of freedoms, vital freedoms I might add, for women.

My sad conclusion is that the only way reasonable Americans are going to take a stand is when they're scared enough. The PP issue is pretty scary, but it's just the tip of the iceburg. And it all boils down to two things: the cost of war and the mentality of warmongers who are dominating American politics right now. Fighting is everything, a police state is fast approaching acceptable and the gentle spirit in the country that fosters humanity is being defeated. What's really unfortunate is that who we elected as Commander in Chief is another warmonger, and yet people don't want to see it. But I think that when enough Americans start to see the true cost of a warrior nation - the true cost of the warrior mentality - we'll start to see some serious American resistance, and with that courage will come the right track. . . .

It's always so delicious how those who believe others whom aren't sufficiently enlightened should suffer for not being as hip as they are. Yeah, take a pound or two out of their asses.

It's that kind of disdainful elitism that innocents who have waged war on no one must be punished for the sins and crimes of evil old men and greedy corporations. The House Republicans threw in an extra $8 billion to the Pentagon's already bloated $700 billion budget, but it's the kids who dig Sesame Street who should take it right between the eyes.

Some people think things have to get a lot worse before things can get better. It's fine for them to think that way. They usually aren't the first ones to lose out when things go south. Someone else pays that cost long before they do.

This isn't about warmongering. This is about politics and elections and their repercussions. Where there was once a Democratic majority in the House it's been replaced by a Republican one and they don't have much regard for Planned Parenthood, PBS, NPR, net neutrality, environmental protection, health care reform, labor unions, and women's reproductive rights.

Soon enough they'll get around to gay rights, affirmative action, privatizing Social Security and beginning the investigations of the Obama Administration.

November 2012 isn't far off. They got the House, they're going to get the Senate and even if Obama wins another term he could be the last Democrat standing in Washington. If he doesn't, you're looking at Republican Nation as brought to you by Rupert Murdoch, the Koch Brothers, the Club for Growth and Karl Rove to name just a few of our sponsors.

Shit just got real for a lot of folks who wanted to return divided government to Washington and the rest who didn't bother to vote. Stay the course of fighting the same bullshit battles with those you don't regard as sufficiently ideologically pure and it's only gonna get realer.

PinkAmy
02-20-2011, 04:08 PM
The Tea Party, whatever their original intentions
Just a new name for old right wing extremists. They tried to say they didn't care about social issues...until a few of them snuck into power and now they've waged a war on women's rights. First attempting to redefine rape, not limiting our access to comprehensive gynecological services.

I'd like to make a deal with them, I try to legislate anything about their penises if they leave my vagina the hell alone.

Don
02-20-2011, 04:37 PM
Blac, I guess because so many of the people I see saying "so what?" right here aren't religiously motivated -- but I do think they're fatally short-sighted in ways that are extremely weird, and I can't quite wrap my mind around it. This seems such an obvious, non-partisan, and bedrock pragmatic issue to me, that I'm having a really hard time comprehending why it's not that obvious and pragmatic and non-partisan to anyone who even glances at the issue.
Seriously, I couldn't agree more. Planned Parenthood is one of the most important charities we have. And the issue is obvious, non-partisan, and pragmatic. Anyone other than a politician who glances at the issue can see that, I agree.

But see Zoombie's post.
Why does NASCAR need FEDERAL FUNDING?

I thought the point of NASCAR was to be an entertainment, an industry that pays for itself because people enjoy, heck, need escapism in their lives.

NASCAR should get all the funding it needs from it's fans. If it does not make enough money, it is presumably because not enough people find it entertaining for it to exist.

Planned Parenthood, on the other hand, is a HUGE positive force in our society. WHY IS IT GETTING A FUNDING CUT!?

What kind of out of touch morons are running this country?
Planned Parenthood is too important to turn over to the politicians. We're paying the price for that now. I don't see any likelyhood of that changing. Pragmatism tells me that appealing to those "out of touch morons" isn't going to get anywhere.

And BoP just explained why, as important as Planned Parenthood is, it's not something we can realistically expect our leaders to consider a priority.

There are many needs of society that government regularly fails to meet, because they don't work for society. They work for the special interests that put them in office. Waiting for them to man up and do what's right is like waiting for Godot.

We expect equal justice for all. We get DOMA.
We expect them to keep us safe. We get the war on terror and the TSA.
We expect them to educate our children, and we get zero tolerance in the schools.

We as a society need to adjust our expectations.

Bird of Prey
02-20-2011, 05:14 PM
It's always so delicious how those who believe others whom aren't sufficiently enlightened should suffer for not being as hip as they are. Yeah, take a pound or two out of their asses.

This all utter bull. I pay my dues and then some to live, but I won't play your game which is be as insulting as you can, with the hopes that you'll put people on the defensive regardless of how imbecilic your argument, which is all about scoring points with your revered ultra-liberals and smug satisfaction that you actually make sense when you make no sense at all, and that you're vastly superior when you're not. Talk about the epitome of arrogance. But let me bring it home to you: the country isn't willing to suffer at all, nevermind suffer the slow, painful bleed of programs that people like you want regardless of the consequences, which is future generations funding them. And of course, you'd be perfectly happy to see more body bags pile up and more foreigners killed as long as you get your across the board social funding. That's really what it's about. And all those "yous" in this paragraph don't even approach the tally that you use daily on your phony psychological assessments and idiotic assumptions to give yourself a big, grossly undeserved pat on the back.

Shit just got real for a lot of folks who wanted to return divided government to Washington and the rest who didn't bother to vote. Stay the course of fighting the same bullshit battles with those you don't regard as sufficiently ideologically pure and it's only gonna get realer.

You mean people like you who couldn't give a crap less. By all means, you're on. . . . .

Hip-Hop-a-potamus
02-20-2011, 07:18 PM
Oooh...he posts the hangar.

The Godwin equivalent in an abortion thread.

Actually, that's posting the photo of Gerri Santoro.

Hip-Hop-a-potamus
02-20-2011, 07:20 PM
This all utter bull. I pay my dues and then some to live, but I won't play your game which is be as insulting as you can, with the hopes that you'll put people on the defensive regardless of how imbecilic your argument, which is all about scoring points with your revered ultra-liberals and smug satisfaction that you actually make sense when you make no sense at all, and that you're vastly superior when you're not. Talk about the epitome of arrogance. But let me bring it home to you: the country isn't willing to suffer at all, nevermind suffer the slow, painful bleed of programs that people like you want regardless of the consequences, which is future generations funding them. And of course, you'd be perfectly happy to see more body bags pile up and more foreigners killed as long as you get your across the board social funding. That's really what it's about. And all those "yous" in this paragraph don't even approach the tally that you use daily on your phony psychological assessments and idiotic assumptions to give yourself a big, grossly undeserved pat on the back.
You mean people like you who couldn't give a crap less. By all means, you're on. . . . .

I think he was spot on. How did he approve of body bags and more foreigners killed?

Bird of Prey
02-20-2011, 07:34 PM
I think he was spot on. How did he approve of body bags and more foreigners killed?

The same way I'm "taking a pound out of [the public's] asses." In other words, I'm drawing my own conclusion based on all that Nightimer didn't say, and going out of my way to be misleading because I want to present myself the same way that he does: with insulting, self-righteous, misleading conclusions meant to personally undermine regardless that it's an inherently dishonest and bullying tactic. . . .

icerose
02-20-2011, 08:05 PM
Not knowing what else to do, I have written my Senator. This is my letter.

It has come to my attention that the house has passed a very distressing bill that will defund Planned Parenthood. While I understand the need to balance the budget is pressing, and the spending by the federal government is out of control, this is one group we cannot afford to defund. Planned Parenthood offers an array of services to people who would go without if planned parenthood didn't exist. They offer birth control, condoms, cancer screenings, pap smears, STD testing and treatment, as well as vaccines and many other important and vital health items. It is estimated that they prevent over 1 million unwanted pregnancies every year greatly reducing the need for abortions and abandoned or neglected children. The budget allocated for Planned Parenthood costs the same as a mere 4 hours of war. Because of this along with the proposal to fund Nascar and other non-essential items, I can't see how any excuse to defund them will fly. This is an assault on comprehensive medical care for women in the low income bracket. That is indefensible. Our poorest need our help. I personally contribute to Planned Parenthood but my contributions are a mere drop in the hat.

Please balance the budget without slitting the throats of our poorest and most in need citizens. Balance the budget by stopping the wars, reducing the overblown military budget, cut back on support to foreign dictators, cut back funding to special interest groups and bailouts to large overbloated corporations and their ilk. But please, do not strip away the poorest citizens of their comprehensive medical care that is so vital.

If their budget is cut, the cost to this country will be far greater. Anyone who can't see that is blind. What costs more, 1 million doses of birth control, or 1 million pregnancies and deliveries? The answer is simple, and the costs do not end there. Food, clothing, education, health care will be needed throughout the continuing years of those unwanted pregnancies not to mention foster homes. Do not put these women in the situation of absolute desperation.

Make me proud to have you as my senator. Let me and your other constituents know that you really do care and are working for the people rather than special interest groups.

I hope everyone will write to their senators immediately, and get this bill stopped in the Senate. I only hope that my Senator will listen.

PinkAmy
02-20-2011, 08:31 PM
So adding an extra million people(the number of pregnancies avoided) into the mix, probably mostly to people who can't afford them(or like, they could afford birth control) is going to help the situation...how? It'll make poor people even poorer, won't it?

Great point. Surely the republicans don't want to extend health care subsidies to these poor folks or, dare I say, welfare if they need it.
I'll never understand how many of those anti-choicers care more about the potential for life, yet once there is a living breathing baby, they wash their hands of it.

Snowstorm
02-20-2011, 08:35 PM
I'll never understand how many of those anti-choicers care more about the potential for life, yet once there is a living breathing baby, they wash their hands of it.

Oh, I've gotten into this argument with other anti-choicers, one is a state rep who writes legislation every friggin' session to limit or outlaw abortion (and this session it looks like he's going to win). The responses I always get are stuttering or silence. I take those responses to mean "don't bother me with facts."

Celia Cyanide
02-20-2011, 09:04 PM
O.o

People picket Planned Parenthood!? To stop people from going in!? What the hell?

I don't really go in for social work, but if I knew when this was happening, I'd totally volunteer time as the 6"2' wall of solid muscle that shoves protesters out of the way.

Bart, if you are at all inclined, I would really recommend contacting Planned Parenthood in your area and asking if you can be an escort. I did all kinds of volunteering for Planned Parenthood back in the day, but escorting was by far the most rewarding. The protestors do not discriminate against anyone who walks in, so everyone gets harassed. They really appreciate you being there.

Monkey
02-20-2011, 09:21 PM
This isn't about cutting the size of the government or reducing government programs or even, as Don suggested, somehow a "liberation" of Planned Parenthood.

In case anyone missed it, there's a full-on, guns-blazing assault on abortion going on right now. And if you care to look at the reasons for PP getting their funding cut, that big scarlet A is all over it. Does anyone believe this was primarily about any of those things in my first paragraph and not about abortion?

Or are we just oh, so small government now that we don't mind an assault on basic rights so long as it means no tax money goes to Planned Parenthood?

Celia Cyanide
02-20-2011, 09:32 PM
This isn't about cutting the size of the government or reducing government programs or even, as Don suggested, somehow a "liberation" of Planned Parenthood.

I volunteered there for many years. I was very involved, and I did everything from stuffing envelopes to escorting, and believe me, we did not need to be "liberated" from the funding we received.

Mr Flibble
02-20-2011, 11:06 PM
Icerose, this here is the part that gets me the most - the part that makes this sooo stupid.
If their budget is cut, the cost to this country will be far greater. Anyone who can't see that is blind. What costs more, 1 million doses of birth control, or 1 million pregnancies and deliveries? The answer is simple, and the costs do not end there. Food, clothing, education, health care will be needed throughout the continuing years of those unwanted pregnancies not to mention foster homes. Do not put these women in the situation of absolute desperation. They are saving money on PP, but will lose how many more times that in other services they will have to fund? (Unless they're planning to defund foster care, welfare for bringing up these kids, education, and everything else too) Financially it makes absolutely zero sense.


Tbh, from over here, it looks a bit bizarre, to put it mildly....but then your healthcare looks odd from this perspective too :D

icerose
02-20-2011, 11:45 PM
Icerose, this here is the part that gets me the most - the part that makes this sooo stupid.
They are saving money on PP, but will lose how many more times that in other services they will have to fund? (Unless they're planning to defund foster care, welfare for bringing up these kids, education, and everything else too) Financially it makes absolutely zero sense.


Tbh, from over here, it looks a bit bizarre, to put it mildly....but then your healthcare looks odd from this perspective too :D

Oh I know. It's like someone else said upthread. They're jumping over hundred dollar bills to catch a penny.

Sad Soup-eating Girl
02-20-2011, 11:57 PM
I'm gonna ask a question that sounds naieve and like it's for posting's sake, but seriously, I'll never understand or even accept:

WHY do some people think they have any (moral) right to meddle with other peoples' private choices and decisions? Whatever way I get or don't get children should be my own damn business as long as whatever I do is victimless - and other people's moral values are not valid victims as no tangible harm is done. I know the term "victimless" is inappropriate when talking abortion but for lack of better words, I'm using it now. I will not give birth to a rape child or a career killer just to please my Christian neighbors. I probably even would give birth to either simply because I can't make reasonable decisions when they're sad in some way.

rugcat
02-21-2011, 12:00 AM
Oh I know. It's like someone else said upthread. They're jumping over hundred dollar bills to catch a penny.It has nothing to do with money. It's all about ideology, both from those who oppose the very concept of PP to those who believe the government should have a minimal, if any, role in funding social programs of any sort.

PinkAmy
02-21-2011, 12:43 AM
It has nothing to do with money. It's all about ideology, both from those who oppose the very concept of PP to those who believe the government should have a minimal, if any, role in funding social programs of any sort.

Right money is just an excuse to get those on the fence to change their minds. Believe me, if it was funding for something republicans cared about, like paying for viagra or something that men value...this wouldn't have even been an issue.

icerose
02-21-2011, 12:51 AM
It has nothing to do with money. It's all about ideology, both from those who oppose the very concept of PP to those who believe the government should have a minimal, if any, role in funding social programs of any sort.

No, it's not about money, but that's the excuse they're using and I won't hesitate for a minute to call BS and point out the logical fallacy. If they want to cut it at least they should have the balls to say why.

Devil Ledbetter
02-21-2011, 01:04 AM
Right money is just an excuse to get those on the fence to change their minds. Believe me, if it was funding for something republicans cared about, like paying for viagra or something that men value...this wouldn't have even been an issue.You mean like NASCAR?

billythrilly7th
02-21-2011, 01:41 AM
You mean like NASCAR?

My head almost exploded thinking that we were funding NASCAR.

Until I googled and it's not funding.

It's sponsorship/advertising to attract recruits.

Just like Pepsi would do.

Pepsi doesn't FUND Nascar. They buy sponsorships and splat their name on the cars.

That what this is.

No different than buying commercial time to get recruits.

Whether this 7 million spent on Nascar could be better spent in other recruiting methods is debatable.

Thank you.

Michael Wolfe
02-21-2011, 06:56 AM
Though I haven't yet posted in this rather long thread, I've been following the story.

And while I understand why people would be outraged about this, there's one important thing that occurred to me about it. Unless I'm mistaken, this really has little or no chance of happening.

The Senate would have to vote in favor of the defunding as well, and then either Obama would have to sign it (rather than veto it), or the veto would have to be over-ridden.

Is that not correct?

Celia Cyanide
02-21-2011, 06:59 AM
Though I haven't yet posted in this rather long thread, I've been following the story.

And while I understand why people would be outraged about this, there's one important thing that occurred to me about it. Unless I'm mistaken, this really has little or no chance of happening.

The Senate would have to vote in favor of the defunding as well, and then either Obama would have to sign it (rather than veto it), or the veto would have to be over-ridden.

Is that not correct?

Yes, you are correct, although I really don't know what the actual chances are that it might happen. I don't think Obama would sign it, although I didn't think it would pass the House.

nighttimer
02-21-2011, 07:35 AM
Though I haven't yet posted in this rather long thread, I've been following the story.

And while I understand why people would be outraged about this, there's one important thing that occurred to me about it. Unless I'm mistaken, this really has little or no chance of happening.

The Senate would have to vote in favor of the defunding as well, and then either Obama would have to sign it (rather than veto it), or the veto would have to be over-ridden.

Is that not correct?

Yes, you are correct, although I really don't know what the actual chances are that it might happen. I don't think Obama would sign it, although I didn't think it would pass the House.

Ever throw chum in the water, Michael Wolfe?

This isn't so much about whether or not the attempt to defund Planned Parenthood will pass into law. John Boehner and Mitch McConnell can count and they know the votes aren't there to pass in this Congress. PP may have to take a hit, but it will probably survive in a somewhat wounded form.

But will they return to this issue after the 2012 elections? Oh, hell yes they will.

The Republicans are nothing if not patient. They control a matter of statehouses and with that control comes the ability to redraw the Congressional districts in a way favoriting Republican candidates and throwing Democratic ones into difficult matches and in some cases against each other.

The Democrats have 23 seats in the Senate to defend in 2012 while the Repubicans have only ten. With Democratic incumbents like Jim Webb in Virginia, Kent Conrad in North Dakota and Jeff Bingaman of New Mexico already announcing they won't run again, the odds of Harry Reid keeping his job as a Senate Majority Leader dwindles considerably.

Then of course, there's the matter of President Obama himself up for reelection and the growing possibility even if he does win, he could face a G.O.P. controlled Congress. If Obama loses then it's game over for the Democrats as any sort of counter-balance to the Republicans.

That's when the fun will really start. We'll look back at this fight as just a minor skirmish. Planned Parenthood may survive being zeroed out today only to find itself legislated out of existence in a tomorrow that isn't yet here.

Shadow Dragon
02-21-2011, 08:09 AM
I don't think Republicans will win enough of the senate to do this without a democrat filibuster. And while I'm not a big fan of his, Obama is a great campaigner. So, thankfully, this probably won't happen even after 2012.

Come to think of it, maybe all the talk about the world ending in 2012 was actually about the republicans completely controlling the US government. My gods, they're the ones that'll destroy the world. *le gasp*

Michael Wolfe
02-21-2011, 06:08 PM
Ever throw chum in the water, Michael Wolfe?



No, I'm not much of a fisherman. ;)




This isn't so much about whether or not the attempt to defund Planned Parenthood will pass into law.


Exactly, but it seemed like much of the discussion was more about the meaning of the bill itself rather than the fight ahead. I thought the rest of your post did a good job of outlining the real issues faced, moreso than what's been already covered in this thread.


But will they return to this issue after the 2012 elections? Oh, hell yes they will.


Absolutely. I think even the last election has given us a taste of what could happen if the GOP controls more of the government. I've actually lost count of how many abortion threads we've discussed here just since the last election.



Then of course, there's the matter of President Obama himself up for reelection and the growing possibility even if he does win, he could face a G.O.P. controlled Congress. If Obama loses then it's game over for the Democrats as any sort of counter-balance to the Republicans.

That's when the fun will really start. We'll look back at this fight as just a minor skirmish. Planned Parenthood may survive being zeroed out today only to find itself legislated out of existence in a tomorrow that isn't yet here.



It's not just a legislative threat, as I'm sure you know. How many Supreme Court decisions are one vote away from going the other direction? That issue actually seems more pressing to me than the threat of anyone being legislated out of existence.

PinkAmy
02-21-2011, 10:59 PM
An interesting link about congress supporting NASCAR through advertisment dollars AKA an excuse to give money to their pet projects http://www.addictinginfo.org/?p=1788 . I'd love to see some unbiased statistics how many people see ARMY ads on cars and say, "Gee, I never thought of enlisting, but since seeing this ad, I'm joining."

Don
02-21-2011, 11:03 PM
An interesting link about congress supporting NASCAR through advertisment dollars AKA an excuse to give money to their pet projects http://www.addictinginfo.org/?p=1788 . I'd love to see some unbiased statistics how many people see ARMY ads on cars and say, "Gee, I never thought of enlisting, but since seeing this ad, I'm joining."
It's more likely ma and pa sitting in the living room, wonderin' what they're gonna do about that no-good son-in-law who's just taking' up space and eatin' 'em out of house and home.

They watch those cars go round and round for days and days, and when the message finally penetrates, they look at each other with a gleam in their eyes.

"Tommy, getcher butt in here. We got an idear for ya."


:D

PinkAmy
02-21-2011, 11:08 PM
It's more likely ma and pa sitting in the living room, wonderin' what they're gonna do about that no-good son-in-law who's just taking' up space and eatin' 'em out of house and home.

They watch those cars go round and round for days and days, and when the message finally penetrates, they look at each other with a gleam in their eyes.

"Tommy, getcher butt in here. We got an idear for ya."


:D

Aaaah. Like hypnotism? Keep your eye on the car with the army signs as it goes round and round and round...

PinkAmy
02-22-2011, 06:17 PM
I had a friend who gave herself two abortion/miscarriages when she was in HS (I didn't know it at the time, not until many yeast later when she told me) by using a turkey baster filled with nail polish remover, creating a hostile environment for the fetus'. This was less than a decade after Roe v. Wade, she had options but as a teen she was too afraid of her parents finding out to go to PP. I hate to think of women being forced to do this if they can't get the services to terminate their pregnancies. Additionally, for the anti-choicers, my friend didn't have the opportunity to receive counseling about her options as planned parenthood always presents the choices to their patients (hence the term pro-choice). (I know my friend wouldn't have been effected, but if PP can't provide medical services others might do what my friend did, use coat hangers like they used to do or get other unsafe back alley abortions).

Sarah Madara
02-22-2011, 08:13 PM
I had a friend who gave herself two abortion/miscarriages when she was in HS (I didn't know it at the time, not until many yeast later when she told me) by using a turkey baster filled with nail polish remover, creating a hostile environment for the fetus'.

That's so fantastically dangerous that I'm wondering if your friend was a teller of tall tales. I just can't imagine saturating a delicate mucous membrane in acetone and not ending up in the ER for the pain alone, not even considering the toxic effects once it's absorbed into the bloodstream. And then to do it TWICE?

(Shudders...)

Devil Ledbetter
02-22-2011, 08:19 PM
That's so fantastically dangerous that I'm wondering if your friend was a teller of tall tales. I just can't imagine saturating a delicate mucous membrane in acetone and not ending up in the ER for the pain alone, not even considering the toxic effects once it's absorbed into the bloodstream. And then to do it TWICE?

(Shudders...)I don't know much about it (not a medical expert) but my first thought was "and she didn't have a stroke?" :(

PinkAmy
02-22-2011, 09:32 PM
That's so fantastically dangerous that I'm wondering if your friend was a teller of tall tales. I just can't imagine saturating a delicate mucous membrane in acetone and not ending up in the ER for the pain alone, not even considering the toxic effects once it's absorbed into the bloodstream. And then to do it TWICE?

(Shudders...)

She was kind of nuts, we're not really friends any more. I don't think she was making it up, because of the way the conversation came up. She was talking about 2 postcards she sent to post-secrets. I wanted to know what they were and she hemmed and hawed at how embarrassing it was. She said she was promiscuous in HS (this was before everyone knew about AIDS). I can't swear she was telling the truth. I know she's done other stupidly dangerous things that seem to defy common sense. I believe her.
She didn't get real detailed and I didn't ask how much she used or if she diluted it.
She'd have to be more warped than I thought if she wasn't telling the truth, which is possible. Just typing her story had me crossing my legs LOL. OW.

Alpha Echo
02-22-2011, 09:57 PM
Though I've never had need for an abortion, I went to PP when I was in college and was so thankful for the free help. I went b/c there was no way I could possibly go to my family doctor. I was terrified of my mother finding out I was having sex. I got free birth control and pap smears and condoms. I was able to stay healthy when I couldn't afford to get my own insurance and couldn't possibly use my parents.'

I know I wasn't the only scared teen who needed help. Nor was I the last.

icerose
02-26-2011, 03:04 AM
At least my district representative in the house voted against this bill. That makes me fill a little better.

I haven't heard anything from my senator. When is the senate supposed to vote on this, anyone know?

icerose
03-09-2011, 09:20 AM
I hate freakin politicians. This is the response I got from my letter. Didn't even read it and took my letter as an opposition to federal funding for PP. Gah!


Thank you for sharing your opposition to federal funding of Planned Parenthood. I share many of your concerns and strongly object to taxpayers’ dollars being used to pay for abortions.

Simply put, I am strongly opposed to abortion, and I oppose taxpayers' dollars being used to fund elective abortions and abortion related services except in rare circumstances. Throughout my Senate service, I have sponsored legislation and even constitutional amendments that would overturn the Supreme Court's decision in Roe v. Wade – a decision that has fueled one of the most deeply divisive moral debates our nation has ever faced.

Although this work is far from over, I am proud to have worked with my pro-life allies on important victories to protect the sanctity of human life. For example, when I was chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee, I worked with my colleagues to pass the Partial Birth Abortion Act and the Unborn Victims of Violence Act, both of which were signed into law by President George W. Bush.

Additionally, during the recent health care reform I offered an amendment to prohibit federal dollars being used to pay for elective abortions. My amendment would have applied current federal law, known as the Hyde Amendment, to the federal health programs created through the new health care law (P.L. 111-148). The Hyde Amendment has been included for many years in annual health appropriations legislation approved by the Congress and signed into law.

In addition to prohibiting federal funds from being used to pay for abortions, I offered an amendment to protect morally concerned health providers from being coerced into performing abortions. I will continue fighting to protect the life of the unborn as Congress continues to debate the effects of the health care reform.

Finally, I have many serious concerns about the institutions that perform elective abortion while receiving federal funds. As you may know, the House of Representatives recently passed legislation to completely defund Planned Parenthood. I look forward to continuing to lead this fight in the Senate, and I appreciate hearing of your shared opposition to federal taxpayer funding of Planned Parenthood. Like you, I hold the sanctity of life in the highest regard and will continue to do everything in my power to ensure that tax dollars do not provide for those services.

Thank you again for taking the time to contact me.

Your Senator,



Orrin G. Hatch
United States Senator

blacbird
03-09-2011, 09:41 AM
Too bad we can't enact retroactive abortion for people like Orrin Hatch.

rugcat
03-09-2011, 10:00 AM
Hatch is going to face a tough reelection fight -- from someone even farther to the right. That's what happened to the then incumbent (conservative) Senator Bob Bennett, dumped by Tea Party activists in the GOP Utah State caucus, for current Senator Mike Lee.

icerose
03-09-2011, 07:01 PM
Hatch is going to face a tough reelection fight -- from someone even farther to the right. That's what happened to the then incumbent (conservative) Senator Bob Bennett, dumped by Tea Party activists in the GOP Utah State caucus, for current Senator Mike Lee.

The last thing we need is someone further to the right.

SPMiller
03-09-2011, 09:54 PM
Too bad we can't enact retroactive abortion for people like Orrin Hatch.Too brutal.

Bartholomew
03-10-2011, 12:18 AM
I'd like to know how many tax dollars that went to Planned Parenthood actually paid for abortions.

Zero.

Bartholomew
03-10-2011, 12:19 AM
Too bad we can't enact retroactive abortion for people like Orrin Hatch.

The range and magnitude of abortion equipment for adults is simply amazing. Far more efficient than the bland, pre-birth models.

Bartholomew
03-10-2011, 12:20 AM
Can Obama veto this?

Shadow Dragon
03-10-2011, 12:47 AM
Can Obama veto this?
Yes, but he won't have to. It still has to pass the senate, which is won't.

backslashbaby
03-10-2011, 02:02 AM
I called PP for an annual exam with just a PAP (so no blood work, imaging, etc). $140. No sliding scale anymore. I haven't priced the same thing at other gynos in town, but that figure makes me sad.

I've never heard of any community-health initiatives to encourage women to get PAPs for free or reduced prices or anything. $140 a year for one small aspect of purely preventative health care is a bit rough for our poor. Add in mammograms and all the other checks you're supposed to get as you age, and I wonder what the total figure is? Very sad.

Celia Cyanide
03-10-2011, 12:58 PM
I hate freakin politicians. This is the response I got from my letter. Didn't even read it and took my letter as an opposition to federal funding for PP. Gah!

Wow.

I used to bitch about Norm Coleman's responses, but at least he acknowledged, "although we disagree, I am very glad you contacted me."

NoGuessing
03-10-2011, 03:17 PM
Uh, didn't we just pass a healthcare bill so people can have affordable healthcare?

Enough double dipping.

I propose that people have health insurance. Through their company or through their OWN pocket.

Enough with the nanny state.

Let Planned Parenthood raise money like all the other organizations out there.

George Clooney can do it.

It's not the tax payers job any more to prop up organizations.

WE HAVE A ZILLION DOLLAR DEFICIT!!!! Stuff has to go.

It's not easy.

When we bring our deficits to an acceptable level we can then bring back some stuff maybe.

Haha, oh my, if you think the US is a nanny state, boy have I got news for you. The US is far from a nanny state, very far.

Over here in NZ, we get free cervical smears and contraception is free from my uni campus and at high school we could get contraceptives from the school nurse. For free (contraceptives are also available in the marketplace).

Taxpayer dollars well spent imo.

As for getting out of financial trouble, slash the military spending. A quick look at wikipedia puts it at 1 trillion, and even if wikipedia is wrong, it will still comfortably be in the hundreds of billions.

Do you really need that much? We spend about 45 cents here, and our soldiers are trained to US Marine standard.*

*Our airforce pilots however, spend their days running around Ohakea Air Base with their arms spread going "VVVRRRRRMMM POW POW VRRRRMMMMM"

Shadow Dragon
03-10-2011, 05:27 PM
*Our airforce pilots however, spend their days running around Ohakea Air Base with their arms spread going "VVVRRRRRMMM POW POW VRRRRMMMMM"
Wait, New Zealand has an airforce? :tongue

icerose
03-10-2011, 07:46 PM
Wow.

I used to bitch about Norm Coleman's responses, but at least he acknowledged, "although we disagree, I am very glad you contacted me."

And I would have been okay with that, but twisting what I said or blatantly ignoring what I said and pretending to agree with me while stating a very different stance pissed me off. I wrote back and told him so that the least he could do was read my letter before responding and that politicians need to stay the heck out of women's wombs.

regdog
03-10-2011, 09:03 PM
Good for you, Icerose

Celia Cyanide
03-10-2011, 09:33 PM
And I would have been okay with that, but twisting what I said or blatantly ignoring what I said and pretending to agree with me while stating a very different stance pissed me off. I wrote back and told him so that the least he could do was read my letter before responding and that politicians need to stay the heck out of women's wombs.

Good for you. I once had a friend who worked for a congress person, and she kept track of all the letters she got on both sides of the issue. It didn't always effect how the congress member voted, but at least they paid attention to that. They should. It's not very respectful to voters otherwise.