The Great Arab Revolt

Bravo · Feb 18, 2011

i know there are a few threads on this, but i thought it'd be nice to compile the major uprisings currently happening in the arab world. take a look at this economist map to get a nice interactive pic of the arab world and click here for a great google map of the intifadas currently underway. i'll start with some of the bigger ones to watch right now:

bahrain:

from human rights watch:

Several patients at the Salmaniyya hospital told Human Rights Watch the army and police opened fire without warning on a crowd making their evening prayers near the heavily guarded roundabout. One protester said he was attacked by an armed man in civilian clothes.

66 dead right now.

what did the US have to say about this?

I am deeply concerned about reports of violence in Bahrain, Libya and Yemen. The United States condemns the use of violence by governments against peaceful protesters in those countries and wherever else it may occur

atta boy, obama. hit em with words that truly hurt. i mean, just three months ago, bahrain was a model partner according to hillary clinton.

so i guess this is progress right?

The United States provided approximately US$20 million in military assistance to Bahrain in 2010, primarily for the purchase of military equipment, weapons, and training. It has proposed another US$20.2 million in assistance for 2011. It is unclear whether such equipment was used in today's attacks against the protesters.

personally, as much as i've been awestruck by al jazeera's coverage of the egyptian and tunisian revolts, their coverage of bahrain has been lacking. bahrain banned them, but so what? so did egypt, that didn't stop them from ripping apart mubarak's regime and aggressively supporting the protesters. i think the reason why their not pushing hard against bahrain is because it's a neighbor and a fellow gulf state.

we'll see if the protesters can build enough momentum to force al jazeera to actively support them.

jordan:

jordan:

"We want a complete overhaul of the political system, including the constitution, the parliament dissolved and new free and fair elections held," she said"

the govt's response:

At least 200 government supporters trailed the anti-government protesters, chanting: "Our blood and souls, we sacrifice for you Abu Hussein" - a reference to Jordan's King Abdullah II before clashing with the opposition march.

Tareq Kmeil, a student at the protest, said: "They beat us with batons, pipes and hurl rocks at us. We tried to defend ourselves, to beat them back."

He said at least eight people suffered fractures to the skull, arms or legs.

"Police didn't do anything to protect us. They just stood on the side watching us getting beaten," Kmeil said.

total amount of US aid to our moderate ally the jordanian king:

$530 million.

much like the egyptian police, the jordanian security forces are particularly notorious for their torture techniques:

Most common forms of torture include beatings with cables and sticks and the suspension by the wrists of inmates from metal grates for hours at a time. Guards flog the defenseless prisoner with knotted electrical cables, beat him with hoses and truncheons, or kick him with fists and boots.

Islamists accused or convicted of crimes against national security (Tanzimat) face greater abuse than ordinary prisoners.

http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2008/10/08/jordan-torture-prisons-routine-and-widespread-0

libya:

the disgusting, vile qadaffi has no problems cheering the revolution in egypt, but he's been going on a rampage to prevent protests gaining steam:

Government security forces have killed at least 84 people in three days of protests in several cities in Libya, Human Rights Watch said today, based on telephone interviews with local hospital staff and witnesses.

http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2011/02/18/libya-security-forces-kill-84-over-three-days

he's shutdown the internet now too:

Libya has now started shutting down its Internet and social networking sites that could help revolutionaries organize, multiple news outlets reported late Friday.

Libya demonstrates both the power and the limits of the Arab uprisings. The country, though the most isolated in the region, is not disconnected enough to black out the news of autocrats falling in two of its immediate neighbors. But information about what is happening inside Libya — and the ability of protesters to mobilize world opinion on their behalf — is far more limited.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/19/world/africa/19libya.html

but protests continue on. we'll see how far they can get; at least the libyans will have the new superpower al jazeera on their side since their far away from the gulf.

phew.

so, in case this wasnt clear, i'd like to see every single one of the dictators, sultans, and kings of the arab world exiled to saudi arabia.

it'll make it that much easier to execute every single one of them when the fascist, theocratic nutjobs of the house of saud get overthrown.

i don't care if their islamist or secular, they all need to be taken out.

and secondly, i'd like to say that if supporting democratic freedom in the middle east is contrary to american interests, then fuck american interests.

there is something fundamentally wrong with our foreign policy if we require hundreds of millions of people to be under jackbooted dictators in order for us to be the superpower.

fuck all of that.

Bravo · Feb 18, 2011

and i'd also like to point out that i still have not learned how to use the shift key.

cmi0616 · Feb 18, 2011

I'm very interested to see what will happen in Iran, being of Persian descent myself. The government is too powerful, and the president is a total fundamentalist nut job, and if the people don't revolt (which they WON'T, because the Iranian government does a STELLAR job of crushing the spirit of it's citizens), it's going to cause problems for us over here in the west.

It's only a matter of time before they have nukes, and if something hasn't been done by then, may God have mercy on us.

There have already been some protests (which, of course, the Iranian government blamed on the US and Israel, because, don't ya know it, we're the root of all evil), which gives me some hope.

dmytryp · Feb 18, 2011

You forgot Syria, Algeria, Yemen and Iran (though they aren't arabs).
I do think that your excitement is somewhat premature. Tunisia retained the regime, only ejected the top honcho. Egypt is under de-facto military rule now (which is not different from the rule since '52) with unclear prospects for the future. Lybia, Syria Iran will probably crack-down hard and quash the revolts. Others? We'll see.

blacbird · Feb 18, 2011

At the moment, these various movement in individual states, stimulated initially by Tunisia, have little in common other than general pissed0ffedness about lousy living conditions and oppressive regimes. This regional uprising has a long way to go yet, and the keystone is Saudi Arabia, a country ruled about as oppressively as any in the area, and the one with the single most important natural resource, one that affects the entire world and the responses of nations everywhere. Anybody who pretends to predict how all this unrest plays out is a fool.

Don · Feb 19, 2011

Bravo said:
i know there are a few threads on this, but i thought it'd be nice to compile the major uprisings currently happening in the arab world.

Great idea.

Bravo said:
i'd like to say that if supporting democratic freedom in the middle east is contrary to american interests, then fuck american interests.

there is something fundamentally wrong with our foreign policy if we require hundreds of millions of people to be under jackbooted dictators in order for us to be the superpower.

fuck all of that.

blacbird said:
Anybody who pretends to predict how all this unrest plays out is a fool.

Agreed. But I remember not long ago when another empire went broke trying to tame Afghanistan, while also trying to maintain control over an entirely different group of smaller countries that were tired of being dictated to.

Unfortunately, I've got a bad feeling that those people rising against their oppressive regimes are going to be slow to forget who was financing and equipping those regimes.

And what's with all these people rising up and demanding freedom, when the story we've been sold for decades is that they hate us for our freedom? Shouldn't they be marching for more oppression?

Bravo · Feb 19, 2011

bahrain:

'They didn't run away. They faced the bullets head-on'

"Massacre – it's a massacre," the doctors were shouting. Three dead. Four dead. One man was carried past me on a stretcher in the emergency room, blood spurting on to the floor from a massive bullet wound in his thigh.

A few feet away, six nurses were fighting for the life of a pale-faced, bearded man with blood oozing out of his chest. "I have to take him to theatre now," a doctor screamed. "There is no time – he's dying!"

great pic that i cant embedd from work.

videos of the massacres:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USAMc_OUFn4&feature=player_embedded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwnUQcKXmMM&feature=player_embedded&skipcontrinter=1

but the military is pulling out:

Armoured vehicles sealing off a central square in Bahrain's capital, Manama, withdraw on the orders of the royal family after days of unrest.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/world-middle-east-12514405

and the protestors are coming back:

Thousands of jubilant protesters in Bahrain enter Pearl Square in Manama after police pull out, having earlier fired tear gas and shotgun cartridges at them.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/world-middle-east-12514849

billythrilly7th · Feb 19, 2011

This thread is terrible.

This is your re-entry into P&C?

Makes me sad, Bravo.

Bird of Prey · Feb 19, 2011

billythrilly7th said:
This thread is terrible.

This is your re-entry into P&C?

Makes me sad, Bravo.

It's not terrible at all, Billy. It's relevant, well-documented, thorough, smart and thoughtful. In fact, it's a darn good analysis, and for the most part, I agree with Bravo in terms of the US position. . . .

Bravo · Feb 19, 2011

The internet is down at my condo, forcing me to type on my lil iphone. Perhaps comcast is helping me empathize with libyian protestors?

Its either that, or its a really terrible company...

blacbird · Feb 19, 2011

Don said:
And what's with all these people rising up and demanding freedom, when the story we've been sold for decades is that they hate us for our freedom? Shouldn't they be marching for more oppression?

The frightening prospect, Don, is that some of them may be doing exactly that. The Bahrain uprising, in particular, seems to be driven by Shiites pissed off at the Sunni leadership, and pretty much wanting to have their own kind of oppression imposed. I don't see a hell of a lot of "libertarian" philosophy involved in any of these uprisings.

Which is not to say they aren't justified. The current "leaders", people like the Tunisian dictator who sparked this whole mess, Mubarak (now gone), Qaddafi, etc., have done exactly nothing in their lifetimes to promote the freedom and public welfare of the populaces over which they ruled at the point of guns.

This crap is like a Clint Eastwood spaghetti western: No good guys, just a dependence on force and ferocity.

Bravo · Feb 19, 2011

What evidence do you have that the bahrain shias want to impose their own form of oppression?

Bartholomew · Feb 19, 2011

Bravo said:
atta boy, obama. hit em with words that truly hurt. i mean, just three months ago, bahrain was a model partner according to hillary clinton.

so i guess this is progress right?

There's an implication here that Clinton and Obama need to agree, or that they tend to. Let's assume, for a moment, that this correct.

Why is it wrong that our government officials are publicly denouncing atrocities? Do you want them to clench knives in their teeth, dive out of a stealth bomber, and start assassinating people? Start firing missiles?

That said, the assumption isn't really a good one. Clinton and Obama are more than capable of having different opinions. And frankly, if their opinions about a country didn't change after three months and a violent atrocity, I'd be questioning their abilities to think, let alone lead.

Bravo · Feb 20, 2011

libya might be an example of a nation where non-violent civil disobedience just wont work:

New-York based Human Rights Watch said the Saturday killings brought the death toll from the Libya protests to at least 173 since Tuesday, with HRW adding that the toll was "conservative."

gaddafi's taken to gunning down people who attend the funerals of activists:

Libyan security forces opened fire again Sunday on residents of Benghazi as they attended a funeral procession for the dozens of protesters killed there the day before, and quickly crushed three smaller uprisings in the capital, Tripoli.

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/Libyan-forces-fire-at-funeral-again/752614

civil disobedience works if the other side is susceptible to public (or international) perception. but gadaffi has cut his nation from the internet, and al jazeera and other news channels' access there is severely limited. which means the protestors are essentially at the mercy of a homicidal, deranged dictator.

"Tanks and helicopter gunships full of foreign mercenaries are fighting gangs of demonstrators. At least one dead man had been hit by an anti-aircraft missile, while other bodies are riddled with heavy machine gun fire."

needless to say, it doesnt look good.

follow al jazeera's live blog on libya here:

http://blogs.aljazeera.net/middle-east/2011/02/17/live-blog-libya

Bravo · Feb 20, 2011

if comcast wasnt such a crappy company, i'd still have my internet, and i would be able to have mentioned that the UK's william hague slammed gaddafi earlier:

William Hague told Sky News that the use of force by the Libyan authorities was "dreadful and horrifying" and called on the leader to respect people's human rights.

A vicious crackdown led by special forces, foreign mercenaries and Gaddafi loyalists was launched in the country's second city Benghazi, which has been the focus of anti-regime protests.

Mr Hague told Sky News' Murnaghan programme: "I think we have to increase the international pressure and condemnation.

"The United Kingdom condemns what the Libyan Government has been doing and how they have responded to these protests, and we look to other countries to do the same

the US also issued a condemnation:

There's no place for violence against peaceful protesters ...what we're encouraging Bahrain and other governments in the region to do is to recognize that this is a yearning for change and reform that is not going to go away, that it needs to be respected and that they need to get ahead of it by leading rather than being pushed.

billythrilly7th · Feb 20, 2011

I miss the days of Reagan bombing Qadafi.

Bravo · Feb 20, 2011

you mean when he killed 41 libyan civilians, including gaddafi's 15 month old daughter?

Bravo · Feb 20, 2011

Anti-government protesters in the eastern Libyan city of Benghazi have reportedly seized army vehicles and weapons amid worsening turmoil in the African nation.

A local witness said that a section of the troops had joined the protesters on Sunday as chaos swept the streets of the city, worst hit by the uprising against Muammar Gaddafi's 42-year old rule.

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/africa/2011/02/201122014259976293.html

i'm skeptical of this, but news is breaking out really fast. despite the limited access, al jazeera's been able to use doctors, callers, and anonymous reporters to piece together a pretty remarkable report of what's happening inside libya.

let's see if the tide could turn...

Bravo · Feb 20, 2011

does haskins not post here anymore?

sulong · Feb 20, 2011

Bravo said:
follow al jazeera's live blog on libya here:

http://blogs.aljazeera.net/middle-east/2011/02/17/live-
blog-libya

Wow. This is an engaging narrative.

Thanks.

billythrilly7th · Feb 20, 2011

Bravo said:
you mean when he killed 41 libyan civilians, including gaddafi's 15 month old daughter?

Yes.

One of the first good lessons about not sponsoring terrorism. Don't bomb discos.

Something Carter was afraid to do, Reagan was not.

And it was 15 civlians and 45 soldiers. Sadly, Qadaffi was tipped off. It still shook the hell out of him and put him on the path to stop causing trouble.

Until now. You wouldn't want to see a predator drone take him out today?

I would.

billythrilly7th · Feb 20, 2011

Bravo said:
does haskins not post here anymore?

He comes for spurts.

Like Wayne Newton, he does two- three week engagements and then we don't see him for a month or two.

Gotta go.

Celebrating Presidents day. Thank god for the founding fathers or we might be getting shot by dictators this afternoon instead of screwing around on the internet.

Later, yo.

Bravo · Feb 20, 2011

Saif Gaddafi, the Libyan leader's son, is speaking live on Libyan state television:

"Citizens tried to attack the army and they were in a situation that was difficult. The army was not used to dealing with riots.

"Libyan citizens died and this was a tragedy."

money quote:

The army said that some protesters were drunk, others were on hallucinogens or drugs

blacbird · Feb 20, 2011

billythrilly7th said:
I miss the days of Reagan bombing ~~Qadafi.~~ anybody

Editorial correction.

And we're all well aware of your religious beliefs. Do you miss the days of 200+ U.S. marines dying in a barracks bombing in Beirut, too? Or Reagan Defense Sec Donald Rumsfeld having a smiley photo-op shaking hands with Saddam Hussein? Or big amounts of money being funneled under the table to the Ayatollahs in Iran so we could send rifles to rebels in the forests of Nicaragua?

billythrilly7th · Feb 20, 2011

blacbird said:
Editorial correction.

And we're all well aware of your religious beliefs. Do you miss the days of 200+ U.S. marines dying in a barracks bombing in Beirut, too? Or Reagan Defense Sec Donald Rumsfeld having a smiley photo-op shaking hands with Saddam Hussein? Or big amounts of money being funneled under the table to the Ayatollahs in Iran so we could send rifles to rebels in the forests of Nicaragua?

A lot of stuff happens in an 8 year Presidency. Some good. Some bad.

Don't turn this thread into a Reagan debate. My comment was relevant to qadaffi. You want to take it off on a tangent. Please don't spoil Bravo's first thread back.

The Great Arab Revolt

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