PA Teacher Complains About Students On Her Blog

Alpha Echo · Feb 16, 2011

"My students are out of control," Munroe, who has taught 10th, 11th and 12th grades, wrote in one post. "They are rude, disengaged, lazy whiners. They curse, discuss drugs, talk back, argue for grades, complain about everything, fancy themselves entitled to whatever they desire, and are just generally annoying."

And in another post, Munroe — who is more than eight months pregnant — writes: "Kids! They are disobedient, disrespectful oafs. Noisy, crazy, sloppy, lazy LOAFERS." She also comes up with a colorful list of comments that she felt should be available on student report cards.

Munroe did not use her full name or identify her students or school in the blog, which she started in August 2009 for friends and family. Last week, she said, students brought it to the attention of the school, which suspended her with pay.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110216/ap_on_hi_te/us_teacher_suspended_blog

So we can discuss this in multiple ways. First of all, how do you feel about the blog? She did make in anonymous, but people should be aware that no one is truly anonymous on the Internet. Right? And a teacher should be smart enough to keep thoughts like that either completely to oneself or share only with people he/she trusts.

Second of all, do you think Munroe is right about "kids these days?"

I have a very limited view of kids in high school anymore. My stepdaughter is seriously a very good child, and only 6. She's smart, ambitious if timid, happy, mostly obedient...and only 6.

My youngest brother is 8 and homeschooled (though my mom's having a hard time right now), and my other youngest sibling is nearly 21. He went through his teenage phase, but for the most part, my parents were pretty blessed with ambitious kids who followed a straight path through the world of education.

Are kids out there becoming more and more of the quality this teacher describes? If so, what do we do about it? How can we protect our own children from doing the same thing as they get older?

I'm hoping Munroe's view is just too limited and not accurate as a generality. But I'm afraid that may not be the case.

PinkAmy · Feb 16, 2011

Being from Philly this has been all over our news.
The teacher should have known better. Anything online is not going to stay private. Teens who post racy pictures suffer the consequences of their indiscretions. She's old enough to know better. She is a teacher 24/7, whether or not in class. They are professionals responsible for education our next generation. Just like a therapist shouldn't write, "I hate my whiny, self-indulgent clients.....", teachers should keep their professional venting between each other. The fact that she's unapologetic tells me more than her original postings.

Plot Device · Feb 16, 2011

In a class of 30 students, you only need one bad apple to make things difficult and three to make things impossible.

An exceptional teacher can

1) redirect those three
2) keep them from throwing an endless arsenal of monkey wrenches into the works
3) avoid a parental confrontation
4) get those three to excel

But no teacher, no matter how awesome, can do any of the above if there is any interference from meddlesome parents or from EXCEEDINGLY devious and/or sociopathic students. And if there are MORE than 3 "problem students" in her classroom, she will have her hands full.

Now, if you want to shift your attentions away from the exceptional teachers, and turn to the average teachers, an average teacher can "get by," but there will be a lesser quality of education in the classroom.

A terrible teacher will throw in the towel before Halloween.

billythrilly7th · Feb 16, 2011

Kids are awful creatures. I agree with what she said.

They should all be sent to North Dakota from ages 12-18. And if ready, let back into normal society.

With that said, this woman does not seem to be cut out for teaching. And she should probably find a more suitable line of work because I don't think the North Dakota thing is happening for at least a few years.

Snowstorm · Feb 16, 2011

I disagree with a blog such as this. Obviously, her "anonymity" didn't work.

I also don't think she's right about "kids these days." I don't have kids, but I do--occassionally--get around them. More often than not, they're great kids. Perhaps in school they're around their peers and get to acting the same way whether they're actually lazy, rude, argumentative, et al, at all. I think she needs to figure out a way to change their behavior in HER classroom and turn things around. I don't have a clue how I would handle it, but then I'm not in her place.

Plot Device · Feb 16, 2011

In regards to the OP itself, free speech is free seech. As long as she never named names, her free speech should be protected. But if she was stupid enough to give examples (even if the examples had no names attached) that's when students can start to recignise the actual events being described.

It's STILL free speech. But there's also the issue of professinal ethics of not divulging private information. So this is a grey area for me.

Across the board, she sounds like she shouldn't be a teacher. You can't do the job unless you love it.

Alpha Echo · Feb 16, 2011

PinkAmy said:
Being from Philly this has been all over our news.
The teacher should have known better. Anything online is not going to stay private. Teens who post racy pictures suffer the consequences of their indiscretions. She's old enough to know better. She is a teacher 24/7, whether or not in class. They are professionals responsible for education our next generation. Just like a therapist shouldn't write, "I hate my whiny, self-indulgent clients.....", teachers should keep their professional venting between each other. The fact that she's unapologetic tells me more than her original postings.

I agree with you completely. I was playing Devil's Advocate, I guess, to see if she had any right. If this falls into free speech. I don't think it should because, as you said, teachers are professionals 24/7. They have to be aware when in public that they could run into a student and behave likewise. Internet is public.

Plot Device said:
In a class of 30 students, you only need one bad apple to make things difficult and three to make things impossible.

I'm sure you're right. I grew up in the Honors/AP classes, and frankly, never saw anyone misbehave beyond the occasional smart-ass remark or skipping class. Actually, we didn't skip class either, and after middle school, the smart-ass remarks pretty much stopped. We were there to learn, and we wanted to learn, so we behave so that that may happen.

DeaK · Feb 16, 2011

I think some kids have always been like that. It is the fact that this teacher takes this attitude that is disturbing; how can she reach out to them if this is how she feels? Kids/teens aren't stupid, and when someone disrespects them, they're not going to be open to learning from that person.

And what Plot device said. So true.
More exceptional teachers needed!

veinglory · Feb 16, 2011

And of course going to town on someone for an anonymous blog is really going to make the profession look more attractive to the best and brightest. Every profession has these anony-blogs, why not teaching? Her only mistake was not making the anonymity stronger.

mscelina · Feb 16, 2011

First off, teaching school is one of the hardest jobs there is. Seriously. I am counted as passing competent at anything I set my mind to--but I do NOT have the right temperament to teach school. I tried. *grin* I would have said the same thing about my students when I was teaching if blogs had been around then--and I was teaching Greek and Latin to honors students.

That being said, anyone who is actively blogging and is dumb enough to think their blog is "only for their friends" is so clueless they should be breaking some IQ minimum law. I mean--c'mon. You're a teacher and you thought your blog would stay anonymous? With all those disobedient, disrespectful, Noisy, crazy, sloppy, lazy, rude, disengaged whiners just looking for a reason to get you out of the classroom? Because they were. Kids have a pretty sure instinct which teachers are predisposed toward them and which are secretly loathing them.

And then the crux of the situation for me. Despite the fact that this teacher is stupid and obviously in the wrong profession, the fact remains that she didn't identify anyone by name, that she didn't cross any legal lines with her blog, and that the posts when they occurred were more in the nature of occasional rants. This wasn't a blog called "Students are Stupid." So I'm not comfortable with her being suspended for expressing--however ill-advised--her opinions just because they aren't flattering to her students. *shrug*

This teacher may need to change professions. Hell, she may not be smart enough to keep up with her tech-savvy students, who certainly were able to figure out how to track her down on the internet. But I've sat in teachers lounges myself and what she said is no worse than what teachers are talking about in there--except SHE didn't name names.

Celia Cyanide · Feb 16, 2011

I couldn't seem to see it in the article...where did she post this? Was it public? With facebook and what not, you can control who sees what you post. And if she didn't do that, I think it was inappropriate. I mean, you can post notes on FB, and make it so that only you, your mom, and five specific friends can see it. Anything less than that is asking for trouble.

the bunny hugger · Feb 16, 2011

Trouble with your boss, I can see. But the entire country in a media shit storm?

Alpha Echo · Feb 16, 2011

mscelina said:
First off, teaching school is one of the hardest jobs there is. Seriously. I am counted as passing competent at anything I set my mind to--but I do NOT have the right temperament to teach school. I tried. *grin* I would have said the same thing about my students when I was teaching if blogs had been around then--and I was teaching Greek and Latin to honors students.

That being said, anyone who is actively blogging and is dumb enough to think their blog is "only for their friends" is so clueless they should be breaking some IQ minimum law. I mean--c'mon. You're a teacher and you thought your blog would stay anonymous? With all those disobedient, disrespectful, Noisy, crazy, sloppy, lazy, rude, disengaged whiners just looking for a reason to get you out of the classroom? Because they were. Kids have a pretty sure instinct which teachers are predisposed toward them and which are secretly loathing them.

And then the crux of the situation for me. Despite the fact that this teacher is stupid and obviously in the wrong profession, the fact remains that she didn't identify anyone by name, that she didn't cross any legal lines with her blog, and that the posts when they occurred were more in the nature of occasional rants. This wasn't a blog called "Students are Stupid." So I'm not comfortable with her being suspended for expressing--however ill-advised--her opinions just because they aren't flattering to her students. *shrug*

This teacher may need to change professions. Hell, she may not be smart enough to keep up with her tech-savvy students, who certainly were able to figure out how to track her down on the internet. But I've sat in teachers lounges myself and what she said is no worse than what teachers are talking about in there--except SHE didn't name names.

This is why I love AW - so many different POVs, and smarter ones than myself, many of them.

You make some really great points, some stuff I didn't think about actually. I was quick to say she should be suspended...but...legally, maybe she shouldn't be.

kayleamay · Feb 16, 2011

I have to side with the teacher on the free speech issue. I think she could have been more tactful, but the woman does have a right to speak her mind on her own time. (The internet is public. So is a restaurant. If she was overheard saying it in a restaurant, would this even be an issue?)

I do have to question why it strikes such a nerve though. Dropout rates are through the roof. Students are more disrespectful than ever. Many parents aren't parenting. Students have taken school violence to a whole new level in recent years. When will it be socially acceptable to call these issues out and who do you think should do it? Would it have been better for her to say nothing and pretend that everything is going well?

I do fear for this younger generation. Many of them are lacking some major life skills.

CaroGirl · Feb 16, 2011

I think it's unprofessional. She might have the right to post whatever she feels on her blog, but I think there's an ethical obligation to refrain from posting about her students. The same as I would never go on a blog or Facebook and complain about my workplace. It's not on. At all.

Devil Ledbetter · Feb 16, 2011

kayleamay said:
Dropout rates are through the roof.

Where are you getting your information? According to the National Center for Education Statistic, US high school dropout rates have fallen steadily from 14.1% in 1980 to 8% in 2008. Link.

Re: the blogging teacher, what a moron. I don't think her right to free speech has been violated. She retains her right to trash talk teenagers and the school retains their right to can her.

The lack of understanding of what "free speech" means appalls me.

Alpha Echo · Feb 16, 2011

Devil Ledbetter said:
Re: the blogging teacher, what a moron. I don't think her right to free speech has been violated. She retains her right to trash talk teenagers and the school retains their right to can her.

The lack of understanding of what "free speech" means appalls me.

Oh, I agree. I just meant - is her freedom of speech violated if she's told that as a teacher, she is not allowed to post blogs like that? I mean...I get that if she loses her job, she doesn't lose her free speech, just her job.

Does anyone know if schools have codes of conduct the teachers have to sign or anything? If so, and if anonymous blogs such as this one are listed in the code of conduct or ethics or whatever, then the teacher violated a contract.

kayleamay · Feb 16, 2011

Devil Ledbetter said:
Where are you getting your information? According to the National Center for Education Statistic, US high school dropout rates have fallen steadily from 14.1% in 1980 to 8% in 2008. Link.

http://www.edweek.org/ew/articles/2010/06/10/34execsum.h29.html

http://www.eschoolnews.com/2010/11/29/high-school-graduation-rate-is-improving-report-shows/

And it's very evident to me locally.

http://www.eschoolnews.com/2010/11/29/high-school-graduation-rate-is-improving-report-shows/

Devil Ledbetter · Feb 16, 2011

kayleamay said:
http://www.edweek.org/ew/articles/2010/06/10/34execsum.h29.html

http://www.eschoolnews.com/2010/11/29/high-school-graduation-rate-is-improving-report-shows/

And it's very evident to me locally.

http://www.eschoolnews.com/2010/11/29/high-school-graduation-rate-is-improving-report-shows/

From your second link:

The graduation rate of U.S. high school students increased from 72 percent in 2002 to 75 percent in 2008, according to the new data. The report also says there has been a decline in the number of “dropout factories,” or schools in which the graduation rate is at or below 50 percent. Dropout factories only make up about 10 percent of all U.S. high schools but account for half of the country’s dropouts. There were 261 fewer dropout factories in 2008 than there were in 2002—a decrease of about 13 percent, according to the report.

ETA: Based on the huge disparity between "dropout rates" and "graduation rates" I can only guess these are calculated differently.

kayleamay · Feb 16, 2011

Yes, but the dropout rate has increased again since 2008. The schools in my immediate area are only averaging about a 69% graduation rate. I find that extremely disturbing.

darkprincealain · Feb 16, 2011

the bunny hugger said:
Trouble with your boss, I can see. But the entire country in a media shit storm?

Yeah, I think there are higher priorities than this unless someone can point out where she used a specific example. Otherwise, it's the media version of trolling. Also known as a slow news day.

BunnyMaz · Feb 16, 2011

While I don't agree with her judgement of children, let's face it, we all see the worst side of humanity from time to time, especially when working with the public.

I work in a customer service role and whilst the vast majority of customers are lovely, you can bet there are a significant number who are entitled, unreasonable, rude, abusive, ignorant and who seem to believe employees of companies they patronise can be treated like dirt, sworn at, screamed at, regardless. There are some people who automatically find a staff member to abuse when any little thing goes wrong because they don't seem to understand that it is our job to put it right and we will try to regardless of whether or not you shout but that we are more inclined to proactively help people who do not terrify us.

And when I have come forward to try and help someone and have received for my efforts two hours of abuse, shouting, screaming down the phone, threats to sue and to get me fired and all over something as silly as the bowl of complimentary fruit wasn't in their hotel room on arrival well... You can bet that I will come away from that needing to vent and more than likely I will vent about "bloody customers".

We all feel frustrated and we all need to vent. This teacher made an anonymous blog and did not name any of the students, teachers or anything that would identify who she was moaning about. Teachers these days are expected to weather the most horrific working environment and somehow, magically, continue to behave like superhumans who are always willing to help and happy and love children.

The only other people who are expected to behave in this manner - politicians - are paid a significant amount more. But who is willing to pay what teachers are actually worth? People complain about the level of taxes as it is, and then expect perfection for pennies.

I say, the teacher didn't say these things to the children, or to the parents, or even to other teachers. She said it online, anonymously. Outside of her working hours.

And children say far worse to teachers' faces with no comeback.

Devil Ledbetter · Feb 16, 2011

kayleamay said:
Yes, but the dropout rate has increased again since 2008. The schools in my immediate area are only averaging about a 69% graduation rate. I find that extremely disturbing.

That is low, and worrisome. I noticed that there is a wide disparity between national averages and big city dropout rates. I'm not surprised the rates have climbed in this poor economy. When they were at their highest (the 80s), we were in a huge recession.

benbradley · Feb 16, 2011

I looked through 15 pages of Google results and finally found the blog, but the post was deleted a day before this article six days ago.

Fortunately, Google's cache saves the day.

What prompted me to trace this down was wondering how she was "found out." It was apparently easy enough, she was not being nearly as anonymous as the headlines were suggesting. The name she blogs under her real first name and something rather similar to (it starts with the same letter as) her last name, and apparently at least one of the commenters on the infamous blogpost knows her in real life.

Apparently she was only blogging for select "friends" (and maybe the one or two other blog readers so many bloggers have), but that doesn't work well on the Internet. An email to her friends would have been better, but that doesn't keep one of them from forwarding it or posting it online. When it comes to being anonymous on the Internet, she perhaps could have been, but she didn't try nearly hard enough (looks like her biggest mistake was telling personal friends about the blog, but then again, apparently that's who she was writing for).

And for what it's worth, here's her latest log entry, four days ago, telling how the previous Wednesday she found out "the students know" and how she was fired, and then the first reporter showed up at her home... the last paragraph is relevant to where this discussion has gone, involving education in general:
http://natalieshandbasket.blogspot.com/

Monkey · Feb 16, 2011

[derail]
The difference between drop-out rates and graduation rates is because of things like GED's and other alternatives to the standard "finish all four years and walk the stage" graduation.

A school with too high a percentage of drop-outs is put on probation and can even get shut down. It falls under the same rules, with the same ramifications, as having too many students fail the standardized tests.
[/derail]

Schools generally have a "moral turpitude" clause, meaning that if they find anything you do, even on your off-time, to be offensive, they can fire you.

They also have iron-clad rules on student privacy...but I don't see where that was violated, here.

As far as ranting about your boss or your job online, a woman did that recently, was fired, and is taking it to court. http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2372465,00.asp

So what she did was stupid, sure, and probably opened her up to getting fired for moral turpitude, but she didn't actually break any laws. She was venting. A national anything over this is overboard, IMO.

As far as her observations...

Today's students tend to be more outspoken and less respectful of authority. If you call their parents, the parents are most likely going to take the kid's side--and this is especially true of the more outrageous kids. If the kids don't like you, they're likely to let you know, perhaps even to the point of finding you on the internet and doing a little trolling, but almost definitely by acting out in your class.

A teacher who doesn't love their job, and especially one who dislikes their students, is going to have a room full of hellions...whereas the teacher that has those same students next period might imagine that they have an entire room full of mature, reasoned, and very good kids.

Because with todays kids, respect isn't given--it's earned.

Sure, even the best teachers are going to have trying days and trying kids...but a classroom with a strong sense of belonging, focus, and mutual respect is going to have a million times less trouble than a classroom where you know good and well the teacher doesn't respect you--and probably doesn't even like you.

So, yeah. I imagine the kids are awful in this woman's class. She's right. And she'd probably be better off in another profession.

Is that enough reason to fire her?

To me, it's debatable...but I don't see why the general public wants in on the debate.

PA Teacher Complains About Students On Her Blog

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