Desire for freedom spreads to Algeria

Konah

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http://english.aljazeera.net//news/africa/2011/02/201121235130627461.html

Taking Egypt's lead, protesters in Algeria marched on Algiers despite governments bans against open protest. Policemen outnumbered the protesters, beating and arresting hundreds.

ISPs have been shut down to try to block social media outlets in the country and visas are being denied to foreign journalists. Those reporters who were already there, or anyone with a camera, are being targeted by security forces to be taken from the city.

One day tyrants will realize they are unable to meet the cries for freedom of their people with force. Ideas are bulletproof.

Protests are scheduled in Bahrain this coming Monday (2/14/11)

Here's a clip of some of the protesting:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSxMZu_7AT8&feature=youtu.be
 

Michael Wolfe

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You know your protests have a long way to go when you're outnumbered by the cops.
 

whacko

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Yemeni is looking a bit unstable now too.
 

blacbird

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I wish it were as simple as people crying out for "freedom". Most of them are crying out for a better material existence, which is not necessarily the same thing.

I think a lot of these people are crying out for a different edition of tyranny, more to their own personal liking. That is most certainly true of the Islamist groups, of which Algeria and Yemen both have more than a little difficulty.
 
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Thank you, George Washington.

I was born into the glory of your creation and I've never known anything but freedom.

What a pleasure to be enjoying a nice Saturday afternoon instead of being beaten by cops in some dictator run hellhole.

You should get a better holiday. One where we really focus on your awesomeness.
 

dmytryp

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I wish it were as simple as people crying out for "freedom". Most of them are crying out for a better material existence, which is not necessarily the same thing.

I think a lot of these people are crying out for a different edition of tyranny, more to their own personal liking. That is most certainly true of the Islamist groups, of which Algeria and Yemen both have more than a little difficulty.
I agree.
It is also instructive to see, imo, just how quickly protests were smothered in places like Syria.
 

Don

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Hey, thrillster, do they get a billion and a half too?
 

LOG

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It's not the first time cries of rebellion have caused a domino effect, almost certainly won't be the last.
 

Konah

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I wish it were as simple as people crying out for "freedom". Most of them are crying out for a better material existence, which is not necessarily the same thing.

I think a lot of these people are crying out for a different edition of tyranny, more to their own personal liking. That is most certainly true of the Islamist groups, of which Algeria and Yemen both have more than a little difficulty.

The heart of the issue in all of these places is that oppressed people are rallying for freedoms they deserve and for the chance to have a better life. Yeah, poverty may be on the outside, or bread prices skyrocketing to unfordable amounts, but these are all caused by something.

A different form of tyranny may sometimes be the end product, but it's hardly what people are asking for. This is the downside to protests that end with an upheaval of the government; in the most recent case with Egypt, the armed forces took over to keep order... or "keep order"...

I may have taken your quote
That is most certainly true of the Islamist groups
the wrong way so I am going to go ahead and not comment on it. The radicals are dangerous, not the religion or the (much) more common peaceful practitioners.
 

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Hey, thank the other founders, plus all the unwritten citizens - black, white, male and female - that fought, died, and struggled to create this country.

I'm holding my thumbs for the Algerians.

Yeah, I thought the same thing... Washington was one of many.

As for the Algerians, the dominoes are falling in the Middle East. The Saudi royals are no doubt fearful at this point, as well they should be. The question is, will the world sit idle if the flow of oil is threatened?
 
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Hey, thrillster, do they get a billion and a half too?

If they put together a better effort than today, absolutely.

Anyone who can overthrow their dictator and is interested in starting a freedom based peace wanting democracy gets a gift of 1.5 billion dollars.

And if you do a good job, there's more where that came from to quote Ralph Kramden.
 

Konah

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Yeah, I thought the same thing... Washington was one of many.

As for the Algerians, the dominoes are falling in the Middle East. The Saudi royals are no doubt fearful at this point, as well they should be. The question is, will the world sit idle if the flow of oil is threatened?

This. Right. Here. If it came to choosing between the Middle Eastern people and oil... I am sure the US government would do some shameful things.
 

JoNightshade

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Thank you, George Washington.

I was born into the glory of your creation and I've never known anything but freedom.

What a pleasure to be enjoying a nice Saturday afternoon instead of being beaten by cops in some dictator run hellhole.

You should get a better holiday. One where we really focus on your awesomeness.

I think George Washington would probably backhand you across the face if he heard you say this.

No, wait, sorry, I think Jefferson would beat him to the punch, and he'd probably use a pistol.

Hamilton might be on your side, but we all know what a great shot he is.
 

dmytryp

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This decision is as good as made already. And there's plenty of historical precedent.
Really? So, are you saying that all that's stops the people of the ME from having the good life is the US desire for oil? And if not, what exactly should US do?

EDIT: Let's be honest here. There is not one single liberal democracy in the ME and N. Africa (excluding Israel and Turkey, but we'll leave them aside). Not one. Whether supported or opposed by US. And by comparison, states that are either aligned with US or in relatively good relations with the West are by far the less oppressive. So, it's a nice theory about US being the source of the problems, but it isn't backed up by facts. You want to take Egypt for example? It has the same rule it had 60 years ago when US was not around -- a military rule that overthrew the monarchy. You think Egypt would be better off if US hadn't supported them starting Camp David accords? You might want to compare the situation during Nasser's rule and Mubarak's. You think the regime would go away if US hadn't supported Sadat and then Mubarak? Think again. It would have been in USSR's pack till '89 and after that... Well, the Syrian model sure looks a good bet. Could US push Mubarak more to implement changes in Egypt? Yes. Sure it could. And should have. In private. But Mubarak was a stubborn cautious man (sitting next to a murdered Sadat might do that to any man). But again, the idea that problems in places like Egypt are due to US is a myth.
 
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Don

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Thank you, George Washington.

I was born into the glory of your creation and I've never known anything but freedom.

What a pleasure to be enjoying a nice Saturday afternoon instead of being beaten by cops in some dictator run hellhole.

You should get a better holiday. One where we really focus on your awesomeness.

I think George Washington would probably backhand you across the face if he heard you say this.

No, wait, sorry, I think Jefferson would beat him to the punch, and he'd probably use a pistol.

Hamilton might be on your side, but we all know what a great shot he is.


GEORGE WASHINGTON said:
It is our true policy to steer clear of permanent alliance with any portion of the foreign world.

:ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL:
 
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blacbird

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Really? So, are you saying that all that's stops the people of the ME from having the good life is the US desire for oil?

Not even close to what I said. Which was, in essence, that U.S. policies have been, and will continue to be decisively influenced by access to oil. Anybody who doesn't think this played into our adventure in Iraq can buy a certain bridge in New York that I have deed to. We'd like a better life for Middle Eastern people, sure. But if it came to a choice between that and access to oil resources . . . well, we have Dick Cheney to answer that question.

The one caveat to that is Israel. The U.S. is deeply committed to the ultimate defense of Israel, and nothing about that policy has changed in 60+ years. That policy DOESN'T mean unswerving or unquestioned adherence to political policies of the Israeli government about Palestine or relations with other neighboring nations.

And if not, what exactly should US do?

Tougher question. In regard to Egypt, it's hard to argue that the current POTUS should have done anything differently than he has. so far. But Egypt is a volatile and evolving situation, with lots of twists and turns to come.

What exactly should Israel do?
 

dmytryp

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Not even close to what I said. Which was, in essence, that U.S. policies have been, and will continue to be decisively influenced by access to oil. Anybody who doesn't think this played into our adventure in Iraq can buy a certain bridge in New York that I have deed to. We'd like a better life for Middle Eastern people, sure. But if it came to a choice between that and access to oil resources . . . well, we have Dick Cheney to answer that question.
No, you said that such a choice was already made. I think it is a false choice in general.



Tougher question. In regard to Egypt, it's hard to argue that the current POTUS should have done anything differently than he has. so far. But Egypt is a volatile and evolving situation, with lots of twists and turns to come.
I meant more generally. Say, you are the president in '79. Egypt just signed a treaty with Israel. One of the provisions is also american aid to Egypt. For this Egypt jumped from the soviet pack into the Western one. What should the US admins have done differently?

What exactly should Israel do?
Israel has zero influence over what happens in Egypt. Israeli politicians during this crisis (and before that, too) showed themselves to be of the realist school (with the exception of Sharansky), almost to the point of being cynical. Now? Keep their heads down and hope for the best, but prepare for the worst. Which is what Israel had always done.
 

blacbird

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I meant more generally. Say, you are the president in '79. Egypt just signed a treaty with Israel. One of the provisions is also american aid to Egypt. For this Egypt jumped from the soviet pack into the Western one. What should the US admins have done differently?

In this instance, nothing. It was handled about as well as it could be, from the US standpoint. Then Sadat was assassinated precisely because of the peace treaty, and Mubarak inherited leadership. Obviously we wanted the peace treaty to hold and things to continue to develop in the direction they seemed to be going.

Mubarak turned out to be nothing more than a status-quo strongman, interested only in enriching himself at the expense of his country, and in changing nothing else. Certainly not in altering the Egyptian political landscape, setting up legal and peaceful means of succession, etc. We did absolutely nothing to try to influence that stasis. In fact, we pretended not to see it.

That's the parallel with Shah Reza Pahlavi in Iran. I'm not trying to say that the uprising in Egypt has precise parallels with the Khomeini revolution, but the unwillingness of the U.S. to attempt to use influence to nudge things in a positive direction before the uprisings most certainly was very similar. We have to hope the outcome of things will differ. But I fear we now have significantly less influence and leverage in Egypt than we once did.

My question about what should Israel do was rhetorical, mainly to make the point that, right now, the U.S. has little more in the way of options than Israel does. We sure as hell ain't going to invade Egypt and hope for a sprouting of Jeffersonian democracy, the way we have done in . . .
 

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In this instance, nothing. It was handled about as well as it could be, from the US standpoint. Then Sadat was assassinated precisely because of the peace treaty, and Mubarak inherited leadership. Obviously we wanted the peace treaty to hold and things to continue to develop in the direction they seemed to be going.
That's my point. It isn't that US decided to sacrifice the well being of people. It has limited options to choose from , and it also wants to advance its own interests, just like everybody else.

Mubarak turned out to be nothing more than a status-quo strongman, interested only in enriching himself at the expense of his country, and in changing nothing else. Certainly not in altering the Egyptian political landscape, setting up legal and peaceful means of succession, etc. We did absolutely nothing to try to influence that stasis. In fact, we pretended not to see it.

That's the parallel with Shah Reza Pahlavi in Iran. I'm not trying to say that the uprising in Egypt has precise parallels with the Khomeini revolution, but the unwillingness of the U.S. to attempt to use influence to nudge things in a positive direction before the uprisings most certainly was very similar. We have to hope the outcome of things will differ. But I fear we now have significantly less influence and leverage in Egypt than we once did.
Well, I sorta not entirely agree. Certainly, US could do more, but US did try pushing Mubarak in private, and Bush tried to do it publicly, too (read the interview I linked in the other thread where the guy talks about what was happening in Iran). But again, US does have leverage, and that's why pro-US regimes are usually far less repressive than the anti-US ones, but this leverage is limited. As you stated in the beginning and in the end of your post, what is US going to do? Invade? Withdraw support and push the client state into the enemy camp? US is not the only player, after all. And it does have interests, which include calm and stability in the region, which in turn, benefit the people to an extent, too.

My question about what should Israel do was rhetorical, mainly to make the point that, right now, the U.S. has little more in the way of options than Israel does. We sure as hell ain't going to invade Egypt and hope for a sprouting of Jeffersonian democracy, the way we have done in . . .
Well, US options from the get go were limited, I fully agree (though they were more diverse than Israel's). I don't have much problem with US responses. Onlly insofar that they were far too quick to invite the MB into the process, were somewhat inconsistent (thus transmitting amateurism), and were far too quick to dump the regime (not just Mubarak). This has bigger implications. It managed to make the Saudis to publicly break with US and to say that they will bankroll Mubarak if US withdraws aid. It also has implications for the regional rulers as to whether they can depend on US support.

EDIT: The problem is also that US is fast running out of dependable allies in the region, while the list of enemies grows. If this continues, US will lose most of its influence in the region. And while some people might like that, I doubt it would make the tegion a better place
 
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blacbird

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We're not disagreeing with much here, dmytry. I think you may have a slightly higher opinion than I do of the quanta of idealism present in the less-public venues of U.S. government, as it views foreign policy.

There's also the matter that Egypt isn't a huge player in the global oil economy. If this stuff happens in Saudi . . .
 

dmytryp

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We're not disagreeing with much here, dmytry. I think you may have a slightly higher opinion than I do of the quanta of idealism present in the less-public venues of U.S. government, as it views foreign policy.
Oh, I am perfectly aware of the occasional cynicism of US gov actions. I am also aware that despite that, much of the time the actions are still better than the alternative and on the whole US plays a positive role in the world. At least imo.

There's also the matter that Egypt isn't a huge player in the global oil economy. If this stuff happens in Saudi . . .
There is a chance we will find out. :)
 

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To step back a bit, BB. You made the claim that the decision of people's good vs. oil was made by US. While we can probably find good indicators what would happen if such a choice arose, though it would be helpful to define what "people's good" would mean, what would constitute such a decision (on one hand, invasion for this specific purpose would, but other than that?) or make distinctions between the different administrations (it is rather likely that such a cynical realpolitic guy like Nixon would vote in the direction of oil, but would somebody like Obama? And there is a big variation in between).
But more importantly, my point was that such a decision never arose. Even if you were to make the case for Iran under Mossadeq (I'll leave aside the argument whether this was or wasn't for the "good of the people" in the long run), US support was much more as an act of Cold War and fighting spreading Soviet influence than it was about oil. So, again, I think that so far the choice never really was oil vs. people.