I Think Egypt Being Free Deserves A Fresh New Thread
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Well, I have only seen little bits of coverage, but if I understand correctly, power was handed to the military. They will need an election and a government of some sort. So we'll see what happens. May to early to tell if they are really free. But my hopes and prayers are with them.
I hope just like in Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade, they choose wisely.
If they do, this is awesome.
If they don't, could be just terrible.
Dear people of Iran,
You are already in terrible. You can only get better. Rise up. Again. Good luck.
The Thrill.
If they do, this is awesome.
If they don't, could be just terrible.
Dear people of Iran,
You are already in terrible. You can only get better. Rise up. Again. Good luck.
The Thrill.
I posted this in the other thread. When the army permitted camel and horse mounted thugs to run riot in Tahrir Square, I thought that it (the army) had essentially sided with HM. I believe that the fact the thugs lost and the demonstrators held their ground signaled to the army that a new force was upon them, and the old regime was finished. Now as caretakers of the republic, they have promised much. The reality, however, is that over his 30 years in power HM erected institutions that do not support a democracy. After the euphoria is cooled, those who are so recently free will have very little time in which to create and install a new framework and new institutions of a new government that will suite them. What the army will allow or not allow will tell us much about what kind of Egypt will emerge from a world shaking event.
I'd love to be a fly on the wall when the potentates, and despots, world wide talk about this and ask each other "What do we do now?"
I'd love to be a fly on the wall when the potentates, and despots, world wide talk about this and ask each other "What do we do now?"
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I don't know who the army "sided with" or "how much", but obviously the high brass were taken aback at Mubarak's statement yesterday that he wouldn't resign, when everybody expected him to. Somebody got through to him with an unequivocal message: "Oh yes, you will." The next step would have been a military coup, which would likely have been worse, and certainly for Mubarak. He'll need exile elsewhere to live out his later years in some level of security. Dick Cheney's bedroom?
What comes next? Pretty open, and peaceful is not assured. The lid has been pried off the box, and it's too late to cram the unhappy stuff back in. Whatever comes next, it better be able to provide some degree of material relief to the populace, or Egypt will continue to make bad news.
What comes next? Pretty open, and peaceful is not assured. The lid has been pried off the box, and it's too late to cram the unhappy stuff back in. Whatever comes next, it better be able to provide some degree of material relief to the populace, or Egypt will continue to make bad news.
Hope for the best, prepare for the worst. These are interesting times.
I definitely keep the people of Egypt in my thoughts these days.
I definitely keep the people of Egypt in my thoughts these days.
Finally, a pretty decent post from you.
Congrats.
Crap. Now I have to counteract it:
YANKEES SUCK! GO PHILS!
How's that?
Was it a military coup, though? It's hard to tell much of anything, imho, except that the army won. As one would expect. Hmmmm.
Fortunately for the US (I hope), lots of their military folks come here for school (no link, but I can give you a general's phone number). I don't know the percentage or anything, though. It would ease my mind if the army were well Westernized, in the sense of knowing and liking democracy. Past that, sh!t gets complicated, if you ask me
Fortunately for the US (I hope), lots of their military folks come here for school (no link, but I can give you a general's phone number). I don't know the percentage or anything, though. It would ease my mind if the army were well Westernized, in the sense of knowing and liking democracy. Past that, sh!t gets complicated, if you ask me
I'm pretty confident that the Muslim Brotherhood will ruin everything.
Don't do it Egypt people.
Join the civilized world in freedom, democracy and separation of church and state.
Can't see it happening though.
Don't do it Egypt people.
Join the civilized world in freedom, democracy and separation of church and state.
Can't see it happening though.
Don't expect the latter. U.S.ers, have a constitutionally codified separation of church and state. Most places on the planet do not. And Islam simply doesn't recognize the concept. Islam is overarching and universal, it is "church and state", amalgamated in concept so completely that the Western "separation" idea almost doesn't make logical sense.
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Not necessarily. Everything depends on how the interim powers set up the elections. If, for example, candidates are permitted freely to announce and run for office without interference from the military AND if the military preserves the freedom from interference to include other factions within the country--remnants of the old regime, extremist groups either religious or secular and just you general thugs, then there's a chance the Egyptian democratic experiment will flourish.
dmytryp
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It also depends on whether the current constitution demanding elections in 60 days will be upheld.
If Qaradawi returns to Egypt now, the parallels with Iran will be very powerful.
If Qaradawi returns to Egypt now, the parallels with Iran will be very powerful.
What were the demands of the Egyptian people?? First and foremost: democracy. I cannot understand why so many are trying to equate the Shah of Iran's departure with what has happened today in Egypt. I find it astounding. First of all, the Shah was overthrown in 1979!! That was a LONG time ago in relation to both technology and global communication. Secondly, the majority of Egyptian demonstrators were clearly not hostile to the West, nor were they screaming in praise of a theocratic governance. I mean, come on. I see no danger of a theocratic "takeover" in Egypt. What I see are external forces about to shoot themselves in the foot by being meddlesome and selfish. . . .
dmytryp
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Actually, the revolt in Iran started in '78. It was largely secular and people were not necessarily hostile to the west. When Khomeini was interviewed during that time he was saying all the right things about democracy, rights etc. There were a huge number of "experts" in the West that said either a. the Islamists have no chance of getting power or b. The Islamists weren't so bad. If you look at much of the coverage of MB during this crisis, you see exactly the same. You see people like Tariq Ramadan throwing open bs at people in the NYT about the MB and nobody basically challenges him. Etc. Etc. One last thing, based on polls, the Egyptian "street" is largely hostile to the West, not very secular etc. You also have to remember that what you see are the more educated dwellers of Cairo and Alexandria, who also constitute maybe 5% of the total population. So, while nothing is certain and written in stone, it is a very real possibility. You want something closer to 2011? Look at what happened in Lebanon.
Not necessarily, although a repressive theocracy is possible. Directly to the south you have the example of Sudan.
My point was just that it's a mistake to think in Western terms of "separation of church and state" in an Islamic nation. The place in the Mideastern Muslim world that I can think of where this concept most clearly exists in an official way is Turkey. And Islamists are highly restive about it there.
Turkey seems to be going down hill... IMHO
If Egypt goes theocracy, women will regress 50 years, or more, just like they did in Iran...
If Egypt goes theocracy, women will regress 50 years, or more, just like they did in Iran...
I think the future of the middle east and it's very survival could ride on what the people of Egypt decide to do here.
They will either show the world that a Muslim country is ready for real democracy that respects it's people, women, life and other beliefs or lead them into hell.
They will either show the world that a Muslim country is ready for real democracy that respects it's people, women, life and other beliefs or lead them into hell.
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Don't forget, the army holds not only power, but a lot of money and real estate as well. Retired generals do very well indeed. They're not about to hand over their privileged positions in the name of democracy.
I think there was a similar situation in Indonesia a couple of decades ago, and it's taken twenty years for the influence of the military to wane. But it has. I think it will be a very slow process in Egypt as well, but I also think it will be an upward curve.
I don't see the MB taking over. They will surely have some influence, but as I've said in previous posts, their appeal is increased in part by oppression and the belief in a lack of alternatives. They're certainly not going away, but neither will their influence grow, imo.
I actually have hope that Egypt will emerge as a democracy of sorts -- maybe not in the Western mold, but a large step forward nonetheless.
I think there was a similar situation in Indonesia a couple of decades ago, and it's taken twenty years for the influence of the military to wane. But it has. I think it will be a very slow process in Egypt as well, but I also think it will be an upward curve.
I don't see the MB taking over. They will surely have some influence, but as I've said in previous posts, their appeal is increased in part by oppression and the belief in a lack of alternatives. They're certainly not going away, but neither will their influence grow, imo.
I actually have hope that Egypt will emerge as a democracy of sorts -- maybe not in the Western mold, but a large step forward nonetheless.
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