Quick question re: out the/out of the

The opinions of a Brit (my additions in bold):

soulrodeo said:

Which is British English and which is American English in the following phrases? (I've tried Google but nothing's coming up for this particular problem.)

He stared out the window. - US
He stared out of the window. - British

Also all the/all of the:

All the kids liked the cake. - both - but more informal in British
All of the kids liked the cake. - certainly British, maybe formal US?

Thank you in advance!

Click to expand...

I don'tthink British or American has anything to do with it. One is simply better writing, better speech, that the other. It's more a matter of proper speech than anything.

Americans and British use both versions. "Of" is simply an unnecessary word, no matter where you live.

I avoid using 'of' unless I think it's necessary. I think it junks up the message.

Seen side by side, and in the context of the original question, the less formal one does feel American to me. But on reflection it could just as easily be casual/regional speech: "I frew him aht the winder"

In my own accent, there's a slight pause or slur where the 'of' belongs ("I looked out-uh the window"), even if the word itself wasn't articulated, which may be why I think I say it even when I don't!

It's one of those things like looking at individual words too long and losing confidence in whether you've spelt them right or not. (And final 't' on past tense verbs is definitely a Britishism!)

Why not - I looked through the window. Or, to eliminate the "looked" filter, Outside the window, the the sun peeked above the horizon.

I agree with James: it's not a regional thing in this instance. I think "out the" has become popular in many countries.

"out the" vs. "out of the"

soulrodeo said:

...
He stared out the window.
He stared out of the window.
...
Thank you in advance!

Click to expand...

Be aware that, in some specific instances, "out of the" can mean something different from "out the." For instance,

1a. He stared out the window.
1b. He stared out of the window. (Perhaps weaker usage, imo; unless the pov character was watching the "He" who was standing in a window bay.)

2a. He stared out the door.
2b. *He stared out of the door. (Probably bad or unacceptable in most contexts, imo)

3. I looked at the family photo. Everyone was smiling at the camera, except for Grandpa. He was staring out of the photo, past my shoulder, at the creature with claws skulking near the closet door.

Click to expand...

Note that for #3, the phrase "staring out the photo" is probably unacceptable, imo. (Though, the phrase "staring out from the photo" is probably fine.)

Good luck!

Actually...

Out the window is still regarded as bad grammar in the UK and British Commonwealth.

Some of us think the of is necessary.

And if you are serious in telling me that you delete the of in America because it is unnecessary please explain to me why you then add it to things like:

Off of instead of off.
At back of instead of behind.
up side of instead of beside.

pdr said:

Off of instead of off.

Click to expand...

This one always clangs for me. Particularly in the common usage "That was based off of X", where the "of" not only seems redundant but the "off of" also appears to mean "on".

I think if someone remarked in a critique that "He stared out of the window" was weak writing because of the word "of", I'd be reaching for the salt before reading on.

#1.)

pdr said:

.

Click to expand...

Out the window is still regarded as bad grammar in the UK and British Commonwealth.

Some of us think the of is necessary.

Click to expand...

I'm not sure if I'm getting your point here. Are you saying that a sentence like "He stared out the window." is ungrammatical? That is, that it is not Standard English?


#2.)

Originally Posted by pdr

And if you are serious in telling me that you delete the of in America because it is unnecessary please explain to me why you then add it to things like:

Off of instead of off.
At back of instead of behind.
up side of instead of beside.

Click to expand...

Could you give examples so that we have something specific to discuss? (And when you do, could you format it--e.g., perhaps use italics or underlines--so the reader would know what text belonged to what.)

Yep!

'Out the window' is definitely not Standard English.

Posters on this board have remarked before that the good thing about American English is that the language has been simplified, tightened up, if you like, removing unnecessary words like of and the and that.

'Out the window' is often the example given.

However I am puzzled because American English often seems to have added bits or use more words which seem to me to be unnecessary.

e.g. 'She got off of the bus'
Why add the of after off?

e.g. 'The car's at back of the shed.'
Why not use one word, behind?

e.g. 'He's waiting across from the library.'
Why not use one word, opposite?

e.g. 'Drive upside of the red bus.'
Why not use one word, beside?

1.)

pdr said:

'Out the window' is definitely not Standard English.

Posters on this board have remarked before that the good thing about American English is that the language has been simplified, tightened up, if you like, removing unnecessary words like of and the and that.

'Out the window' is often the example given.

Click to expand...

Here is the usage note from the lexical entry "out" in the New Oxford American Dictionary on my iMac:

USAGE The use of out as a preposition (rather than the standard prepositional phrase out of), as in : he threw it out the window, is not widely accepted in standard British English. But in the U.S., it is common in edited prose, and it is found also in Australia and New Zealand. The use of out instead of out of is usually found in contexts of going, looking, etc.: : going out the door;: looking out the window.

Click to expand...

So it looks like both are acceptable (different dialects of Standard English), one is sorta BrE and the other is sorta AmE.


2.)

Originally Posted by pdr
However I am puzzled because American English often seems to have added bits or use more words which seem to me to be unnecessary.

e.g. 'She got off of the bus'
Why add the of after off?
(That is okay to me. Though I'd prefer: "She got off the bus.")

e.g. 'The car's at back of the shed.'
Why not use one word, behind?
(Well, actually, I'd say: "The car's at the back of the shed" when the car is inside the shed and near the back of the shed, while I'd say: "The car's behind the shed" when the car is outside of the shed and behind it.)

e.g. 'He's waiting across from the library.'
Why not use one word, opposite?
(I'd prefer the first version.)

e.g. 'Drive upside of the red bus.'
Why not use one word, beside?
(My kind of people (AmE) don't talk that way: We don't drive "upside" of anything.)

Click to expand...

And then there is the related stuff like, how come you say: "I'm going to library/hospital/university"? We stick in that determiner "the", e.g., "the library/the hospital/the university." Yet, we say: "I'm going to McDonalds."

And how come you all spell "curb" as "kerb"?

(Caveat: I'm just one AmE speaker, one of many, so all my comments in the 2nd part of this post are purely only my own opinions.)

Actually...

I've not heard people miss out the definite article. We say:
'I'm going to the library.'

And I will always wince when I hear 'Out the Window'. I grew up in a society where saying 'Out the Window' is regarded as a sign of ignorance.

And I first met 'upside of' in Montana. I've heard it in both Dakotas, Wyoming and California.

No, you still haven't explained why it's good to abandon of in 'Out of the window' yet add it in places where it's clearly unnecessary. You don't need of after off.

It just ain't logical!

Curb is a verb usually and also a horse's bit.
Kerb is the (usually) concrete edge of the road.

It was Webster wasn't it who did all those silly alterations and making words have the same spelling but two very different meanings? It helps, you know, to have different spellings for the two words. Easy to know which one means what.

I've not heard people miss out the definite article. We say:
'I'm going to the library.'

Click to expand...

Not for the library, but I have heard 'go to hospital' or 'going to uni'. However these are instances where the hospital or uni etc is in a general sense, like going to school. ETA: I'm talking re how people speak, not your actual grammar rules

If talking about a specific place, then the 'the' is generally used.

So:

I need to go to hospital. I'm bleeding here!. <-- general statement.

I'm off to the hospital now, to get my head stitched. <--specific place.

It's not really hard and fast though.

But the window? Out the window just sounds wrong, like the phrase is missing a word.

I'd use "out of" as it "through": She threw the apple out of the window.

I've seen "she threw the apple out the window" but that sounds wrong to me.

However, I'd use "out" when we're talking about looking, etc.: Out the window, the sun was rising. She looked out the window.

"Out of" is also used in other constructs: Get me out of these clothes!


But don't mind me. Prepositions are always my weakness.

muddy_shoes said:

I think if someone remarked in a critique that "He stared out of the window" was weak writing because of the word "of", I'd be reaching for the salt before reading on.

Click to expand...

Reaching with a shovel I think.