The next novel...different problem.

[Tiaga]

I didn't want to hijack the other thread...but this sort of ties in.
My problem isn't lack of creative juices, I'm working on 3 separate wip's,
but I can't put the effort into them until I see if my first one sells.
My questions are is it good enough?
How can I push forward until I know.
Will it sell well if it is picked up?
Is the genre and my particular niche popular?
What editing is needed to get it published?
What are the agents recommendations?
etc. etc.
Until I know or get more feedback these are the questions that stop me from
writing more.

[Garpy]

I know exactly what you mean....sort of 'why bother busting a gut if no one is ever going to read it?'

I think for starters though, you should focus on only one ms, get it done, edited and polished. When you've done that, you've automatically achieved more than 90% of aspiring writers....most people just never finish their books. So getting to the point where you can type 'the end' puts you in a good starting position.

From my experience, a lot of crap gets published, frankly. So....you don't actually need to be the next Hemmingway. But what you DO need to have done, is written a book in a genre that is selling well, in a way that offers the tiniest drop of orginality to the genre, whilst delivering a healthy dose of what the genre-reader is used to getting.

So, do that, and be persistent enough, keep querying agents, until one bites, then let him/her tirelessly flog your wares until eventually it arrives on the desk of an editor who is hurriedly looking for a book of your genre to fill a release window they have spare. And lo and behold, your mostly unoriginal, averagely-written genre-clone gets published. And if you actually do manage to sell out your moderate advance, you'll get another two book deal and hopefully get to write something far more inventive with far more zest and passion, because you'll know from the get-go that this 2nd ms is going to be published.

nb:
I should add that the above does not reflect my personal experience, not one bit. I got super lucky very quickly....I'm sure the jaded attitude will kick in further down the line

[Jamesaritchie]

I didn't want to hijack the other thread...but this sort of ties in.
My problem isn't lack of creative juices, I'm working on 3 separate wip's,
but I can't put the effort into them until I see if my first one sells.
My questions are is it good enough?
How can I push forward until I know.
Will it sell well if it is picked up?
Is the genre and my particular niche popular?
What editing is needed to get it published?
What are the agents recommendations?
etc. etc.
Until I know or get more feedback these are the questions that stop me from
writing more.


Your first one may never sell. So what? You didn;t really expect a first effort to sell, did you? Sure, it happens. So does hitting the lottery. Neither is something to count on.

And even if it does sell, it could take years. Agents and published can move with excruciating slowness, and you may have to go through many agents and publishers before someone bites.

Sitting around and waiting to see to see what happens to the first novel before getting down to serious work on a second novel. Shoot, even if your first novel sells, you may have time to write five novels before that happens.

Not one of your questions is really answerable.

You wrote a novel. It's time to submit and forget. All you can do now is send it to good agents, and forget about it. Write a second and thord and a fourth novel, and work as hard as possible to make each one better than the last.

You're a writer, not a waiter.

[emeraldcite]

The more you write, the better you get.

Practice makes perfect (or at least makes better).

If you don't believe it, stop doing something you're really good at for 6 months, come back to it and see if you still have your game. You'll still be good, but not as good as you were.

Write always. It'll only make you a better, more controlled writer.

[maestrowork]

If your writing depends on whether something you write sells or not, then you're writing for the wrong reason.

Sure, being a "professional" writer who sells is important, if that's your goal, but it should never discourage you from keeping on writing if your first, second or third or whichever piece of work doesn't sell.

Where would Van Gogh be if he had based his entire "career" on whether or not he sold his paintings...

[Cathy C]

but I can't put the effort into them until I see if my first one sells.




You might as well stop writing then. Each book should stand on its own and each one should be a single jewel in the crown of your career. If you never set a second stone in the crown because the first one has a slight flaw, the crown will never be complete.

I've known a number of multi-published authors who have fallen into this same syndrome --- except that they don't want to write the book until they've been PAID for it. Same issue, different stage. They submit proposal after proposal, but won't write the book until after someone buys it.

Years can go by while you're waiting for just the right publisher or just the right imprint, and every day that you're NOT writing is a day your skills are geting rustier. Wait too long and you won't be ABLE to write the next book. Think about Lance Armstrong --- do you think he'd be able to pull off another Tour de France if he refused to train until they were willing to give him the yellow shirt at the starting line?

Write the next book and don't worry about this one. If you sell the second book, and the publisher happens to offer a two book deal, you've got one on the shelf! :D

Good luck!

[ted_curtis]

I didn't want to hijack the other thread...but this sort of ties in.
My problem isn't lack of creative juices, I'm working on 3 separate wip's,
but I can't put the effort into them until I see if my first one sells.


That only makes sense if they're all tied together, like a fantasy trilogy. Otherwise, keep plugging away at it. Because #1 might be unsellable, but maybe #3 is sellable.

If they are a series, I'd recommend polishing #1 and then starting on something completely different.

Ted

[Happy-Go-Lucky]

I have the answer to alot of the questions on here.

http://www.indra.com/8ball/front.html

You may want to try using that.

[cwfgal]

It's pretty common to have these kinds of questions and to wonder why you should invest so much of your time on a project that may never see anything but a shelf in your closet. I've been published before but I'm currently without an agent or a publishing house and as I shop around my just-completed project and try to start another one, those same questions keep floating around in my head. In fact, I just wrote a segment in my blog on this issue.

For me, what it boils down to is my need to write. I can't not write, so whether I ever sell something again is a moot point. Write because you want to, because you love it, because you have stories to tell. Write because that's how you want to spend your time.

Beth

Come blog with me: http://itsmindbloggling.blogspot.com/

[Jamesaritchie]

.

Where would Van Gogh be if he had based his entire "career" on whether or not he sold his paintings...

He probably would have gone crazy with such an attitude. Might even have done somethng stupid like cut off an ear. Or sometng really stupid like shooting himself.

[pepperlandgirl]

He probably would have gone crazy with such an attitude. Might even have done somethng stupid like cut off an ear. Or sometng really stupid like shooting himself.

It's a good thing that didn't happen!

[Jamesaritchie]

I've known a number of multi-published authors who have fallen into this same syndrome --- except that they don't want to write the book until they've been PAID for it. Same issue, different stage. They submit proposal after proposal, but won't write the book until after someone buys it.



Well, this is pretty normal. Multi-published writers, at least ones with novels that are turning any sort of profit at all, shouldn't need to write a novel until after they have a contract and pay in hand.

[Tiaga]

Thanks to all. My first novel is finished and an agent has had the full MS for about a month. I have written plenty over the years and while I have a passion for writing I treat it as a business. I have lots of stories to tell, but I don't need to write them just to prove I can. Writing has never been an issue. Of course I realize that the more you write the better you should become, but we all want to be published and yes I write to improve my craft but not just to have the finished product take up space in a drawer, if its just for my own satisfaction I'm past it. As far as selling a first novel, I know it is a long shot but thats how I approached everything in life.

I guess this just further illustrates the different roads witers take.

[reph]

If your writing depends on whether something you write sells or not, then you're writing for the wrong reason.
I keep seeing advice like this. I suppose it must be wise, as it often comes from people who give good advice in other ways, but it does seem to treat writing as a kind of hobby. How do you keep your motivation up in the absence of signs that somebody wants what you produce?

[aruna]

I keep seeing advice like this. I suppose it must be wise, as it often comes from people who give good advice in other ways, but it does seem to treat writing as a kind of hobby. How do you keep your motivation up in the absence of signs that somebody wants what you produce?


I can't speak for others, but in my case I guess it's FAITH. I just have a feeling that I am speaking to readers, writing for them, and that my words are destined to reach them... and that there's a publisher out there who will feel it too. It's a kind of inner confidence that it WILL happen. I would write whether or not I had a contract - in fact, that's what I'm doing right now - but I defnitely don't wrote just for myself.

[Jamesaritchie]

Thanks to all. My first novel is finished and an agent has had the full MS for about a month. I have written plenty over the years and while I have a passion for writing I treat it as a business. I have lots of stories to tell, but I don't need to write them just to prove I can. Writing has never been an issue. Of course I realize that the more you write the better you should become, but we all want to be published and yes I write to improve my craft but not just to have the finished product take up space in a drawer, if its just for my own satisfaction I'm past it. As far as selling a first novel, I know it is a long shot but thats how I approached everything in life.

I guess this just further illustrates the different roads witers take.

Treating writing as a business means you sit your butt down each and every day and write. It isn't about writing them just to prove you can. It's about writing them because you're a writer, and because if you don't, writing isn't a business, it's a hobby.

[Jamesaritchie]

If your writing depends on whether something you write sells or not, then you're writing for the wrong reason.


I don't believe there are any wrong reasons to write. Writing because you really enjoy writing is a great reason to write. So is writing solely because you want to sell your writing. Both make far more sense to me than such rigamarole as "Writing because you can't not write/Writing because you have to write."

There are only wrong reasons not to write.

[Jamesaritchie]

I keep seeing advice like this. I suppose it must be wise, as it often comes from people who give good advice in other ways, but it does seem to treat writing as a kind of hobby. How do you keep your motivation up in the absence of signs that somebody wants what you produce?

I guess you stay motivated by remembering that many great writer spent years and years writing before anyone expressed interest in thier work. And by being too stubborn to quit, I guess.

But I think the only real reason to keep writing is because you want to keep writing. When the time comes, for whatever reason, be it lack of motivation, lack of enjoyment, etc., that you don't want to keep writing, then you stop. I motivate myself with relevant quotations

"Write without pay until somebody offers to pay you. If nobody offers within three years, sawing wood is what you were intended for."
Mark Twain

"To succeed in life, you need two things: ignorance and confidence."
Mark Twain

"If at first you don't succeed, try, try again. Then quit. There's no point in being a damn fool about it."
WC Fields

[MarkPettus]

What do you want to tell the world? You must have something to say, or you wouldn't be sitting in front of that keyboard. Decide what you want to say, and choosing which story to say it with will be much easier.

To hell with selling your story. I think you really have to treat writing, and the business of writing, as two different and distinct professions. Don't use time and energy that should be dedicated to writing for selling. Make new time for selling, and keep writing.

[AncientEagle]

Where would Van Gogh be if he had based his entire "career" on whether or not he sold his paintings...

Probably right where he is now.

Sorry...you made that irresistable.

[brinkett]

I keep seeing advice like this. I suppose it must be wise, as it often comes from people who give good advice in other ways, but it does seem to treat writing as a kind of hobby. How do you keep your motivation up in the absence of signs that somebody wants what you produce?

I kinda agree with reph. It's not vital that my stuff be published (though it would be nice), but it is vital that somebody reads it. I don't see the difference between writing and never being read, and sitting in a room talking to yourself. To me, writing is all about communication. If you enjoy it and think you'll commit suicide if you stop writing, keep at it, but for most, I can't help but think that if after an extended period of time, there are no readers, it might be prudent to spend time doing something else.

[Nateskate]

The more you write, the better you get.

Practice makes perfect (or at least makes better).

If you don't believe it, stop doing something you're really good at for 6 months, come back to it and see if you still have your game. You'll still be good, but not as good as you were.

Write always. It'll only make you a better, more controlled writer.

Boy, is this true. And it's been a blessing and a bane. Since my WIP is an Epic fantasy series, my later books showed better writing than the early ones. But since I hadn't submitted them yet, I went back and edited the first books, which set off a domino of changes that carried through- Tolkien's bane.

I thought, even if they were good enough to get published, I didn't want to look back at them one day with regret and say, "Wow, that stunk...why didn't I perfect it when I had the chance?"

[Garpy]

Yup. If I suspected my work was never going to be published, I'd find another way to enjoy myself....like....I dunno....surfing or something. Writing, just for a readership consisting of myself only, just doesn't do it for me. Like an actor, I need an audience, a stage, and then....I'll give you the best performance I can.

Painting I think is a different deal though. I paint, a lot actually...and yet I have no plans for the canvasses to be exhibited anywhere. It's fun sloshing paint around, it's also fun mucking around with clay and making sculptures. But I don't expect anything to com of it. Writing though makes big demands on my time and motivation....and I need to know it'll pay off (by that i don't neccessarily mean money....just readers, plenty of them).

[Jamesaritchie]

What do you want to tell the world? You must have something to say, or you wouldn't be sitting in front of that keyboard. Decide what you want to say, and choosing which story to say it with will be much easier.

To hell with selling your story. I think you really have to treat writing, and the business of writing, as two different and distinct professions. Don't use time and energy that should be dedicated to writing for selling. Make new time for selling, and keep writing.

But what does having someting to say matter if there's no one to hear it? Selling is done while you're writing, not after you've finished writing. Fiction can say wonderful things, but talking to the walls gets you nowhere, and separating writing from the business of writing is the surest way to find yourself talking to the walls.

[NeuroFizz]

It's about writing them because you're a writer, and because if you don't, writing isn't a business, it's a hobby.

I agree with what others have been saying, but I think there is another category between business and hobby. Many writers, particularly beginning writers, have occupations, even careers outside of writing, so writing isn't approached as the sole source of income. Yet, writing for enjoyment and the intellectual challenge is still mixed with the desire to have the work accepted (=published), and profitable. My guess is many beginning writers are potentially dual career individuals, for whom writing will be as much a part of their lives as their other career. Hobby seems (to me) to trivialize writing. I say this because I initially described my writing as a hobby, but I changed my mind because I wanted it to go beyond my own personal satisfaction. I wanted to subject it to a full evaluation by the writing community. In this case, one aspires to stand, shoulder-to-shoulder with successful writers--in quality even though quantity may not be the same. I think this deserves a distinction between business and hobby. I just don't know what to call it.

[Cathy C]

Well, this is pretty normal. Multi-published writers, at least ones with novels that are turning any sort of profit at all, shouldn't need to write a novel until after they have a contract and pay in hand.

:Huh: Yes, but... the people I mean are those who have books that are in the bottom of mid-list with ideas that are hard sells. If you don't write ANYTHING until you get sold, it can be years before a hard sell idea will get bought. Skills get rusty, and then you'll stay at the bottom of mid-list. I really think that continuing to write REGARDLESS of whether something sells is the best bet. If the writer is a "multiple drafts" type person -- getting just the plot down and then expanding over edits, then there's time to do that. It's sometimes really hard to write under contract. Some muses don't work well under pressure.

[reph]

I agree with what others have been saying, but I think there is another category between business and hobby....I just don't know what to call it.
Avocation?

[NeuroFizz]

Avocation?

Thanks, Reph, but my book of synonyms lists both business and hobby. To me, though, it's closer to the former, so it's good for now.

[Jamesaritchie]

In this case, one aspires to stand, shoulder-to-shoulder with successful writers--in quality even though quantity may not be the same. I think this deserves a distinction between business and hobby. I just don't know what to call it.

Could be, but I tend to think of writing not as business or pleasure, not as success or failure, but as published or not published.

I think where you're looking at it wrong is in thinking that most pro writers only write. This just isn't true. With the exception of those who have well-off spouses, the great majority or pro writers also have second carrers, and always have had. Even those who are full-time pros nearlry always had to write for years while working a second job.

Hobby or business really isn't the point. Success or failure really isn't the point, either. All these can be defined in numerous ways, and usually are. Writers all over the place tailor the definitions of these words to fit their own circumstances, to avoid calling themselves hobbiests or failures.

But published or not published is more cut and dried. So let me define success as writing a novel that sells, even if one that never makes you rich. Either your books sell or they don't. And if any writer's goal is to be published, it's darned hard to separate quality from quantity. For ordinary mortals with ordinary levels of talent, it takes a LOT of quantity to produce enough quality to make novels sell. Selling writers produce quality because they first produce quantity. Writing is like anything else in that no one is born knowing how to write well. Writing well is something we all have to learn, and learning takes both time and regularity.

If you really want to stand shoulder to shoulder with with professional writers in quality, then you'd better also stand shoulder to shoulder in quantity, because quantity, regular writing, regular practice, is the only way most professional writers are ever able to produce quality. Expecting one without the other is just not very realistic. And it's somewhat belittling to those pro writers who produce quality by working long, hard, and regularly for years on end.

Especially when no matter how good you are, how much natural talent you have, it still may be the fourth or fifth novel that's good enough to sell. Talent isn't enough. There's also the skill factor, and skill only comes from routine, regular, regimented practice, whther you're writing of juggling.

Years and years and years ago, I read an article called "The Professional Approach." It made a big impression on me. The basic premise was simple. If you want to succeed in any field, be it as a writer, an electrician, or a butt oiler, you look at the methods used by those who have already succeeded, and the methods of those who have failed. You do the same as the former, and avoid doing the same as the latter.

So if you want to have you writing published, never mind money, fame, hobby, business, etc., if you want your novels published you look at the methods of those who have successfully sold novels, and at the methods of those who never sell novels.

Writers work in all sorts of ways, but the striking similarity is that those who publish are almost always those who write nearly everyday, often for years on end, and those who fail to publish are nearly always those who fail to write nearly everyday. There are always exceptions, but exceptions really do prove the rule.

Two hours per day, five days per week, seems to be the bare minimum a writer needs in order to stand a good chance of selling, of being published. Finding a successful writer who writes less that this is possible, but it's very rare. Very rare.

Vocation, advocation, success, failure, forget it. These are just words. Published or not published is the point. If you really want to stand shoulder to shoulder with pro writers in quality, it means going through the same things pro writers went trhough to get where they are today. It means putting in the same hours, the same hard work, the same day in and day out practice.

You either sit down everyday and write, or you don't. Writers write. Everything else is an excuse.

[Fishmonkey]

I agree with what others have been saying, but I think there is another category between business and hobby.

I'm rather fond of the word 'amateur', even though it has recently acquired negative connotations. I consider myself an amateur writer -- in the same sense as Charles Darwin was an amateur scientist (I think I'm going to catch flak for that one.) But basically, writing is something I'm quite serious about, but I don't self-identify as a writer; and I'm guessing neither do you.

[NeuroFizz]

But published or not published is more cut and dried. So let me define success as writing a novel that sells, even if one that never makes you rich. Either your books sell or they don't. And if any writer's goal is to be published, it's darned hard to separate quality from quantity. For ordinary mortals with ordinary levels of talent, it takes a LOT of quantity to produce enough quality to make novels sell. Selling writers produce quality because they first produce quantity. Writing is like anything else in that no one is born knowing how to write well. Writing well is something we all have to learn, and learning takes both time and regularity.

No agrument, James. We see it all the same way. It's just that your perspective is from someone who has been in the game for some time versus someone who is relatively early in the game (first one coming out this next summer, three more finished and in the early stages of being shopped, another in-progress, half-way through). How you measure success at this point is different in description, but not necessarily in content, compared to the measures I have at my disposal. Time will change that. And, there is no bad in either end. And certainly no excuse.