If an author decided to Self Publish...

[Silverhand]

After reading this board, I realize that self publishing is just not going to be as good as finding an old fashioned publishing house to do all the work for you. But, lets say that your novel is not considered main stream enough, uses to many things that are consdered a no-no by the industry(whatever that may be right now), doesn't have enough action (which my agent says is my novels weakness, BUT was written that way intentionally), or various other problems.

What then..? I mean I could re-write action into the novel to make the agent happy---with the hopes she is right in her assumption...some might take out various other problems....I guess I have heard of people adding new elements to make a novel more mainstream. The problem I am having is that I feel good with what I have written. I don't want more action...I loved the style of Tolkien (I am a fantasy author), and how the story played out slowly, delving deep into the history of the land and characters that inhabited it.

Anyways, this is making me consider just dropping my agent and either going after small publishing houses that dont require agents, or just taking the dive and self publishing my own novel.

So, my question to everyone is, are there any Self Publishing houses I should steer clear of? Are there any that are highly recommended? Are there any authors out there that have done the self publishing experience---and would be willing to email meor private message me as a mentor?

Thank you all for your time.

Eric

[James D. Macdonald]

What is a self-publishing house?

Do you mean a vanity press, like Xlibris, iUniverse, PublishAmerica, or AuthorHouse?

Listen: Who is going to buy and read your book? How will you find those people? What exactly are your goals?

Go small press before you self-publish. The distribution is a killer. And self-publish before you even consider a vanity press.

How about this: Write another, more commercial, book. Use it to build a fan base. A book that would do well as the third or fourth novel by a best seller might not work at all as the first novel by an unknown. Not because the publishers don't know you, but because the readers don't know you.

Don't think about publishers, or editors, or yourself. Think about the readers. Readers are selfish. The first question -- the only question -- in their minds is "What's in it for me?"

[Aconite]

Eric, check out the Bewares and Background Check board (especially the Index); use the Search function to find the myriad threads where someone has asked the same question. Also check out the Self-Publishing boards, conventional and POD.

But...something you said is raising a tiny red flag for me. You said your agent tells you that your manuscript needs work. Is there some reason not to trust your agent about this? And why did your agent take you on, if your manuscript needs work to be salable and you're not willing to make the changes? (Are you, by any unhappy chance, paying your agent before he's sold your manuscript, for any reason--editing, postage, anything at all? I hope not; that's not how the author-agent relationship is supposed to work.)

Before you self-publish, consider this: How many self-published novels do you, yourself, have on your shelves? Why should you assume other book buyers will be different and buy your self-published novel?

[Jamesaritchie]

After reading this board, I realize that self publishing is just not going to be as good as finding an old fashioned publishing house to do all the work for you. But, lets say that your novel is not considered main stream enough, uses to many things that are consdered a no-no by the industry(whatever that may be right now), doesn't have enough action (which my agent says is my novels weakness, BUT was written that way intentionally), or various other problems.

What then..? I mean I could re-write action into the novel to make the agent happy---with the hopes she is right in her assumption...some might take out various other problems....I guess I have heard of people adding new elements to make a novel more mainstream. The problem I am having is that I feel good with what I have written. I don't want more action...I loved the style of Tolkien (I am a fantasy author), and how the story played out slowly, delving deep into the history of the land and characters that inhabited it.

Anyways, this is making me consider just dropping my agent and either going after small publishing houses that dont require agents, or just taking the dive and self publishing my own novel.

So, my question to everyone is, are there any Self Publishing houses I should steer clear of? Are there any that are highly recommended? Are there any authors out there that have done the self publishing experience---and would be willing to email meor private message me as a mentor?

Thank you all for your time.

Eric

I'd say steer clear of all of them. Tolkien may have developed things slowly, but there was still plenty of action. All sorts of action, from small to large. And Tolkien had conflict throughout. Conflict is story.

Just because a novel is written a certain way intentionally doesn't mean it lacks problems, and a novel doesn't get any better, problems do not go away, just because you self-publish.

I'd say try a few more agents, and maybe some small press publishers, but if everyone says the same thing, the the work you need to do involves fixing the problems, not looking for ways to get it published despite the problems.

In the sense you're talking about, "not mainstream enough" really means it's a novel no one is going to enjoy reading.

[Jaws]

Keep in mind, too, that "action" in a novel isn't the same as "action/adventure" in Hollywood. How much "action" is there in Ishiguro's The Remains of the Day?

"Action" is a misleading term; I think what is meant is "change." Characters need to change as a result of their own choices. "Action" is the easiest, and simplest, way of presenting those choices; it's certainly not the only one, even in this publishing environment.

So, without having read your novel, perhaps what you need to do rather than add more Bruce Lee scenes is show the changes in the characters, and their means of making choices, more explicitly. One of the best examples of how that can be done subtly is William Gaddis's JR, a novel written entirely in dialogue that won the National Book Award. JR probably couldn't be sold today by a previously unpublished writer, but I'm using it as an example of technique and not a model for slavish imitation.

[Silverhand]

Only the 'not enough action' problem applies to me, the rest are just problems I know other authors have.

I am not adverse to rewriting, editing, and developing my novel. In fact, in my ignorance and after finishing the first novel, I found an editor and paid them to edit both grammar and content. I also expected to be fully brutalized by a publisher editor IF I ever made it that far.

I guess the problem I am having is this, I put alot of effort into finding beta-readers that weren't related to me and that were recommended by a few of the published authors I know. Each of those readers thought the was novel outstanding, and though I had a few questions to answer, each person thought the novel wasn't lacking anything.

Personally, I think theres a ton of conflict going on; from the epic conflict in Heaven to the lowly conflicts happening between my main character and his paradoxical feelings. And, like I said, I am very happy with not having a super amount of dungeon crawls and sword battles where the good guy always wins.

Truly, I feel like this lady is telling me the novel "HAS to be a hack and slash book with a happy ending". Yet, I keep trying to tell her that my novel is NOT a hack and slash story, nor does it end happily for everyone. (Though there is 6 battle scenes and a minor war fought.)

To the person that mentioned a red flag. Actually, you are correct. I made a mistake by signing with this agent. I actually posted on the fantasy forums about my plight and working on a new query to send out. It is not that I am paying money though---it's more about the shady advice and way of business that keeps pissing me off.

[AncientEagle]

. It is not that I am paying money though---it's more about the shady advice and way of business that keeps pissing me off.

I'm a little confused. Does this statement mean you are not paying the agent money? Or that you are, but the paying is not what is upsetting you?

[Liz James]

What is a self-publishing house?

Do you mean a vanity press, like Xlibris, iUniverse, PublishAmerica, or AuthorHouse?

I believe the definition of "vanity press" is when an author pays the publisher. The companies you mention are all in that category, except for Publish America.

[Unimportant]

I think that the broad definition of vanity press is a publisher who makes most or all of their profit by selling the books back to the author, rather than the traditional publisher whose revenue is generated by selling books to the reading public.

As such, PublishAmerica would be classified as a vanity press.

[Susan Gable]

I think that the broad definition of vanity press is a publisher who makes most or all of their profit by selling the books back to the author, rather than the traditional publisher whose revenue is generated by selling books to the reading public.

As such, PublishAmerica would be classified as a vanity press.

We could also add in there that a vanity press is called such because it appeals to the writer's vanity and his/her wanting to be called a published author. There is no quality control, and basically anything is accepted by the publisher. Hence, that would also toss PA into the mixture as a vanity press.

Silverhand, you have to ask yourself what your goals are for your work. Do you want to be commercially published? If so, then you may have to make adjustments in how you write. I think Jim's advice about writing other books that are more commercially appealing and saving this one for later on is good advice.

Although I will confess, as a reader I can tell when one of my "big name" authors has "pulled something out of the drawer" and gotten it published now where they couldn't before. Usually I don't like those books. <G> Which might indicate that there were solid reasons they couldn't get them published earlier. I don't mean to say that it's ALWAYS the case, but I've had it happen to me a few times with big name authors. :)

Susan G.

[aruna]

We could also add in there that a vanity press is called such because it appeals to the writer's vanity and his/her wanting to be called a published author. There is no quality control, and basically anything is accepted by the publisher. Hence, that would also toss PA into the mixture as a vanity press.


Susan G.

This definition comes much nearer to the truth that the traditional one of paying money in advance. Whether they pay to be published in advance, or through buying their own copies, the motivation is the same. In both cases, lack of quality control means that anyone can be printed, whether or not they can write. Just listen to the squeals of "I'm a published author!" on the PAMB!

[Jamesaritchie]

Only the 'not enough action' problem applies to me, the rest are just problems I know other authors have.

I am not adverse to rewriting, editing, and developing my novel. In fact, in my ignorance and after finishing the first novel, I found an editor and paid them to edit both grammar and content. I also expected to be fully brutalized by a publisher editor IF I ever made it that far.

I guess the problem I am having is this, I put alot of effort into finding beta-readers that weren't related to me and that were recommended by a few of the published authors I know. Each of those readers thought the was novel outstanding, and though I had a few questions to answer, each person thought the novel wasn't lacking anything.

Personally, I think theres a ton of conflict going on; from the epic conflict in Heaven to the lowly conflicts happening between my main character and his paradoxical feelings. And, like I said, I am very happy with not having a super amount of dungeon crawls and sword battles where the good guy always wins.

Truly, I feel like this lady is telling me the novel "HAS to be a hack and slash book with a happy ending". Yet, I keep trying to tell her that my novel is NOT a hack and slash story, nor does it end happily for everyone. (Though there is 6 battle scenes and a minor war fought.)

To the person that mentioned a red flag. Actually, you are correct. I made a mistake by signing with this agent. I actually posted on the fantasy forums about my plight and working on a new query to send out. It is not that I am paying money though---it's more about the shady advice and way of business that keeps pissing me off.

My own opinion is that paying an editor to edit grammar and content is a big red flag. A writer who can't edit his own content is very unlikely to find anyone else who can do it for him. I seldom, if ever, see a good novel that had a paid editor edit content. And, shoot, from my experience, nothing is as untrustworthy as a beta reader who loves your novel. If there's any value in beta readers, it's finding ones who hate your novel. Odds are they're telling the truth.

But it sounds to me as if you're caught in a loop. If you don't like what this woman says, find another. That's how it works. There are a lot of good agents out there, and sometimes you just have to go from one to another until you find one who shares your vision. Forget about paid editors, and forget whatever beta readers have to to say. Neither matters a damn.

Go through more agents. Keep looking until you find one that shares your vision, or until you become convinced that the agents are right and your beta readers werre wrong.

And write another novel. One that you edit, not some paid editor. Then write another novel and another novel and another novel.

Personally, I see no distinction at all between self-publishing and vanity publishing. Both are done because the writer can't find a real publisher.

But get out of the loop, stop worrying what this agent says, what that beta reader says. Neither matters, and neitehr has any bearing whatsoever on the quality of your novel. Keep looking for an agent who agrees with you.

In all likelihood, self-publishing will get you nowhere except lost.

[Jamesaritchie]

I believe the definition of "vanity press" is when an author pays the publisher. The companies you mention are all in that category, except for Publish America.

Publish America is worse than any vanity publisher. Vanity publishers acknowledge what they are upfront, and do not pretend to be anything other than vanity publishers. PA is a scam, worse than a vanity press, and still pretends to be a traditional publisher.

[Silverhand]

James,

I paid the editor without really knowing what I was doing. In fact, I still do not know what I am really doing. :) Though I am college graduated, I never took writing classes, nor did I even like to write. Then, one day, I stood up and decided that I wanted to write a novel, fully aware that my grammar is not very good. Thus, I went to the editor to start the process.

Anyways, maybe the readers are wrong. I keep telling myself they are. BUT, it has been very very hard to hear such drasticly different opinions / advice coming out of my agents mouth. I say this because 3 of the beta-readers absolutely hated the meaning behind the story and what I stood for, yet loved the main character, the detail, and the pace with which I write. Honestly, thats ALL they liked about the novel, which was kind of hard to hear as well, but at least it was constructive....heh

Lemme ask this, since self-publishing would be screwing myself over, would you recommend to start researching small press publishers as my next step---or, should I spend another 3-4 months looking for a quality agent?

Eric

[Cathy C]

or, should I spend another 3-4 months looking for a quality agent?


What's the hurry? Setting a time limit on finding a quality agent is almost a guaranteed recipe for failure. It might take you 3-4 months to find a LIST of the quality agents that are looking for your genre. But, as a niceness, here's a couple of helpful hints:

Buy a subscription to Publisher's Weekly (http://www.publishersweekly.com ) and watch the "People" section. Look for agents with well established agencies who are splitting off to go on their own. They'll be looking to fill up a clientele so they can pay the rent. ;)

Also buy a subscription to Publisher's Marketplace (http://www.publishersmarketplace.com) and frequently check out the "Deals" section (only available after you pay to play. I think it's $20/month) You'll see which agents are selling in your genre pretty quickly.

[LightShadow]

Patience is a virtue.

[scarletpeaches]

I'd rather bin everything I'd ever written and start again from scratch* to write something someone will pay for, than self-publish.

*That stupid back-up mistake still haunts me. At least I only lost 4,000 words of my latest book.

[LightShadow]

I print everything and then forget it. When I pull it out of mothballs I re-write it better, and then have a better product to offer the industry. I will never pay for what others ought to pay me for.

[Yeshanu]

How about this: Write another, more commercial, book. Use it to build a fan base. A book that would do well as the third or fourth novel by a best seller might not work at all as the first novel by an unknown. Not because the publishers don't know you, but because the readers don't know you.


I'd go with this advice, too, if you're truly satisfied with this first book. Remember, LOTR was not Tolkien's first book -- he wrote an action-packed prequel with not nearly as much history in it called The Hobbit. LOTR was then written mainly due to the first novel's success. By that time, he could write as he pleased...

Anyways, maybe the readers are wrong. I keep telling myself they are. BUT, it has been very very hard to hear such drasticly different opinions / advice coming out of my agents mouth. I say this because 3 of the beta-readers absolutely hated the meaning behind the story and what I stood for, yet loved the main character, the detail, and the pace with which I write. Honestly, thats ALL they liked about the novel, which was kind of hard to hear as well, but at least it was constructive....heh


I think you're on the wrong track. The question I'd ask myself in your position is: Am I satisfied with the novel? Because if I am, it's finished. Time, as JamesA says, to start writing the next one. Then the next one...

You can spend so much time trying to sell a finished but unsaleable novel that you lose track of the far goal, which is to make a career out of writing. Which you can't do if you're constantly fiddling with something that's finished. (I think I'm talking to myself here :) )