How much coincidence is too much?

[Captcha]

We're writing romance, so I'd like to think that means we can be a little loose with strict realism, even in an otherwise realistic story. But how far is too far?


My set-up: two men meet at a bar in Vancouver (population over two million), and then the next day meet again, at a horse barn half-an-hour's drive away from the bar. (Obviously there's more to the story, but that's the coincidence part). They weren't at the bar for a horse-related activity, and it's not a gay barn (if such a thing even exists), so there's nothing really to make it anything other than a pretty huge coincidence. Would that pull you out of a story, if you were reading it? And if I do go ahead with this setup (because everything else would work really well this way), is it better to acknowledge the coincidence, or ignore it?

Thanks for any opinions!

[scarletpeaches]

I hate coincidence. Hate it, hate it, hate it. Yes, I've been known to say it's a piss poor plot device, but no, I wouldn't throw your book against the wall.

Mainly because it'd be on an ereader, I assume. :D

But...damn it. I. Hate. Coincidence. And it being romance wouldn't make me give the author any leeway. I don't see what difference that should make at all.

[Karen Junker]

It might work, but it might also be better to explain the coincidence somehow, like make the bar scene a place where horse people hang out when they're in town, or something. PS I love the idea of a gay barn. What if the owner just happens to be gay and is a friend of one of the guys from some other arena of their lives? What if he also owns the bar? Just brainstorming...

What works in real life as a coincidence may seem too coincidental to work in fiction.

[Captcha]

I think I hate it, too. Damn it.

I wonder if I could make it a smaller town - It's a HUGE coincidence in Vancouver, but it wouldn't be that big of deal if it was somewhere smaller...

[scarletpeaches]

For the record, I once said to thethinker42 when she was mid-first-draft, "It's a fucking coincidence - SORT IT, SHITHEAD."

Yes, I really did call her Shithead.

She changed it. Good girl. :D

[ebennet68]

I think that Karen's ideas would work. Coincidence is just too easy.

[sunandshadow]

Personally I'm fine with coincidences if they happen at the beginning for the story. It's so common for a story to need one unlikely or unexplainable event to kick-start them - like the heroine suddenly finding herself a few hundred years in the past or abducted by aliens.

[scarletpeaches]

A heroine finding herself hundreds of years in the past isn't a coincidence. It's a plot device.

It would be a coincidence if she fell through a wormhole and while in the past met someone who used to be her neighbour when she was a kid.

[IdiotsRUs]

Two guys are talking in a bar

Third guy/friend/secondary character that pops up later says 'hey there's X event going down at the barn tomorrow. Be there or be an oviod!'


Have a big local event there, one both the MCs would perceivably either be interested in or could be persuaded to be interested in. Even against their will. 'But Great Aunt Agnatha has missed you so! Plus she wants you to sign the new will that leaves you billions'


Okay it's not great. It;s better than 'wow this whole big city and we bump into each other' (though I'd kinda buy that if they had a friend/friends in common who had separately invited them to said event. )

[Captcha]

The way I've got it set up, one of them is applying for a job at the barn where the other works. And the one applying for the job turned down the advances of the already-employed one the night before, so he's really got no reason to be deliberately pursuing the guy. Damn. Back to the old drawing board...

[Camilla Delvalle]

My set-up: two men meet at a bar in Vancouver (population over two million), and then the next day meet again, at a horse barn half-an-hour's drive away from the bar.
If this is the only coincidence in the book it doesn't sound like too much. Such things happen all the time. Friendships and relationships often begin with a coincidence. You can view it as the coincidence that put the story in motion.

[scarletpeaches]

Yes, such things happen all the time but fiction must make sense - real life rarely does.

And yes, I'm rabidly anti-coincidence. I'm only one reader, but if I read a glaring coincidence in a book, I'd be reluctant to read anything else by its author.

[Captcha]

I think maybe I can introduce a friendly 'bystander'. The employed one had made friends with the bartender (because he's been spending so much time at the bar pining over the one who applies for the job). I think I'll have the bartender let the guy know about the job opening, without telling him that the pining-one works there. So I still get the surprised first viewing, but without the huge coincidence.

Of course, now I have to flesh out the bartender a bit, so we'll know why he bothered...

[scarletpeaches]

God damn it, I can't wait 'til I get my ereader back. There's so much filth out there to be read.

Lookin' at you, Kate 'M/M/M' Sherwood...

Okay, back on topic, people!

[Brutal Mustang]

They weren't at the bar for a horse-related activity, and it's not a gay barn (if such a thing even exists), so there's nothing really to make it anything other than a pretty huge coincidence.


My barn is sort of a 'gay barn'. The woman who takes care of my horses, (one of the best people I know) is a lesbian. While a lot of straight people train and board there, it is a magnet for gays and lesbians.

In country culture, which generally isn't very gay friendly, gay people will travel far to ride at a gay-friendly ranch, where they don't feel like they have to hide who they are. So all you need is some kind of gay connection in your story's barn that would make the people there more open towards gays. Then it would be totally believable they'd travel all that way.

[Steam&Ink]

The way I've got it set up, one of them is applying for a job at the barn where the other works. And the one applying for the job turned down the advances of the already-employed one the night before, so he's really got no reason to be deliberately pursuing the guy. Damn. Back to the old drawing board...

The trouble with coincidence is that it makes the author look lazy. We're not lazy, dammit, we're desperate. Big difference. :D

Anyway, I have a suggestion:

Bar scene ~ While A (who works at the barn) is getting ready to make a move on B (unemployed), B mentions that he's unemployed and loves horses (or whatever). Then A tells him about his work, you know, to get on B's good side. Then A makes his move, B tells him to go soak his head; end scene.
The next day B shows up at the barn. Sure, B didn't want to do the smexy stuff with A last night, but that doesn't make him any less unemployed. And B thinks, screw it, why shouldn't I apply for the job?

Of course, this all assumes there was some chat-up in the bar before A made his move.

Feel free to ignore my suggestion ;)

[Captcha]

Nope, all suggestions welcome...

Hmmm...

[Camilla Delvalle]

There's a difference between coincidences that occur early in the book and such that occur late in the book, I think. Ones that occur in the beginning can sometimes be tolerated as the thing that made the story begin.

But if we take a book like Les Miserables, with a lot of coincidences in the end of the book that seem very improbable, that everyone in the book are revealed to be relatives or connected somehow and happen to stumble upon each other again and again. I think such coincidences are more difficult to tolerate.

[heza]

Could Guy#1 (who already works at the barn and is making the advances) put up a flier on the bulletin board about the position when he gets to the bar (assuming it's a western bar and he figures someone there might know horses)? And then he hits on Guy#2 (the rebuffer/applicant) and gets dissed. And then Guy#2 sees the flier independently?

(Coffee houses have boards; techno clubs don't... I'm not sure about "bars," not knowing what kind of bar it is.)


Or, I also like the idea of the bartender knowing about the job and being the go between.

Are neither of these guys regulars of the bar?


~Hez

[Gillhoughly]

Coincidence is the death of plot. - J. M. Straczynski

Real life can have coincidence. It often does.

Fiction can't.

Figure out a reason why at least one of them ends up at the next meeting place.

But why bother? If they hit it off from the get-go, they will agree to meet later or jump in the sack the same night. Problem solved.

[Captcha]

But why bother? If they hit it off from the get-go, they will agree to meet later or jump in the sack the same night. Problem solved.

Well, it would solve THAT problem, but it would create a whole new problem in that I would no longer have any conflict in the story! (they don't get along at first. Well, at the VERY first, they do, but then the one with the job reveals that he's an innocent virgin looking for love, and the one without a job runs away because he's afraid of commitment and doesn't think that he's a good enough guy for the virgin. Hence his chagrin when he shows up at the barn the next day and runs into the guy...)

[Gecko Girl]

I don't mind a coincidence early in a story. I think it's okay to set up conflict with a coincidence, but I would be really turned off if you resolved the conflict with one.

[MissMacchiato]

If I'm honest, when I read romance, I'm reading it for the interraction between the characters. The setting, the conflict from external sources, the way they meet....

it's all just a backdrop for the main show, which for me, is how the couple work through their issues in a funny and touching way. That's what I'm looking for - the truth in that emotional response to each other.

Maybe I'm weird like that, and I can totally understand and agree with SP when she says that it's an easy get out and a poor plot device, especially as a writer, but as a reader.. what can I say. It doesn't bother me in the slightest, because with a romance story, you're going into the book with some fairly set expectations. You know that the characters will have to meet, so who cares that it's coincidence. They happen in real life, they can happen in books, so, yeah. I'll stop rambling now :)

[Gillhoughly]

he's afraid of commitment and doesn't think that he's a good enough guy for the virgin.

That's not coincidence, it's insecurity and co-dependence and most people have that, but get past it if they're smart. ;)

I know gay guys and they think the same as straights when it comes to sex: virgin or no virgin, the more the better, often and well, or at least often.

You may need to re-think your conflict. I wouldn't buy this as a hetero situation.

Consider external factors for a conflict: does one of them have a doting mother (he's not good enough for you, dear!), a bitchy ex who won't go away, a straight best friend offering relationship advice?

Those three fit one of my gay friends; he's dealt with all of them! http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/icons/icon10.gif

[LorelieBrown]

The woman who takes care of my horses, (one of the best people I know) is a lesbian. While a lot of straight people train and board there, it is a magnet for gays and lesbians.

In country culture, which generally isn't very gay friendly, gay people will travel far to ride at a gay-friendly ranch, where they don't feel like they have to hide who they are.

QFT. My mom drives abt three hours round-trip to her barn for this same reason. She could have easily relocated nearer, but has chosen not to because everyone there knows & is friendly w/ her and her partner.

Hence his chagrin when he shows up at the barn the next day and runs into the guy...)

Does it have to be the very next day? I'd find it more believable if it's like six months later. Even in the biggest cities, given enough time you can run into the same people.


I know gay guys and they think the same as straights when it comes to sex: virgin or no virgin, the more the better, often and well, or at least often.

You may need to re-think your conflict. I wouldn't buy this as a hetero situation.

Not everyone's cookie cutter. I knew a gay guy who refused to "break in" other guys because he didn't want to be seen as an "experiment." Again, I should say, he'd been down that path & burned for it.

[heza]

You may need to re-think your conflict. I wouldn't buy this as a hetero situation.




I'm not a gay man, but I would totally buy that as a hetero situation. I've not dated two different men because they were more "innocent" than I am, and I feared I would screw them up. I figured I should go find someone as screwed up as I am, who had made the same bad life choices. I know hetero guys who thought a woman was too good for them and that they didn't deserve her because of choices they had made or the lifestyle they lived.

Again, I'm not gay, but I don't see why a gay man can't also feel the same way. Gay, straight, man, woman... we all put things on pedestals at one time or another and then act accordingly.

[Inkblot]

I think it's fine to have a coincidence like that early in the book. Coincidences happen in real life all the time and everyone knows it. What you should avoid under any circumstances is a coincidence toward the end of the book that solves your character's problems.

[Gillhoughly]

Once, again, coincidence is the death of plot.

Just because it happens in real life doesn't mean it works in fiction.

Unless you're writing a paranormal, you have to have logical, rational reasons for things to happen in a book or a mean editor like myself will call shenanigans and toss it right back to the writer.

Yes, some books that reach publication rely on coincidence for their plot. I feel cheated when it happens and knock that writer off my reading list.


A fair coincidence: both characters like the same TV show.

Unfair coincidence: days later both "just happen" to run into each other again out of the blue.

The latter has happened to me, to many of us, but it's not something that happens to characters.

The writer has to be in control of the plot and set up ahead of time a common interest that would draw characters to the same area.

Fair coincidence: both characters discover they like the same TV show and BBQ.

Fair plotting coincidence: both characters attend a BBQ cook-off and meet again over smoked ribs.

It's a simple fix, the writer just has to tweak things at the initial meeting and then the mean editor will smile and keep reading.

[Adobedragon]

It would be a coincidence if she fell through a wormhole and while in the past met someone who used to be her neighbour when she was a kid.I confess I find this premise interesting. *cringes*

But, then I also find this interesting.

The way I've got it set up, one of them is applying for a job at the barn where the other works. And the one applying for the job turned down the advances of the already-employed one the night before, so he's really got no reason to be deliberately pursuing the guy. Damn. Back to the old drawing board... and this.

(they don't get along at first. Well, at the VERY first, they do, but then the one with the job reveals that he's an innocent virgin looking for love, and the one without a job runs away because he's afraid of commitment and doesn't think that he's a good enough guy for the virgin. Hence his chagrin when he shows up at the barn the next day and runs into the guy...)I'd be the first to admit, I absolutely suck at plotting. But the scenario you've described works for me. I like the whole "Oh, crap, it's you?" reaction that the job seeker is going to have when he goes to apply for the job.

I'd love it if I knew that one was looking for a job, the other an employer with a job opening, and that these two, despite the turn down at the bar, are on a collision course for another meeting. If I know what they don't, that "coincidence" is going to throw them together again, I'm fine with coincidence. Especially, if it's clear that these two are really hot for each other, the perfect match, etc. I'll be turning the page, eager to see what happens when the job seeker shows up at the barn the next day.

Just sayin'.