Do you have someone preview your book?

[Stacey Sweeney]

Do you guys have someone read your manuscript and tell you their opinion before you send it to an agent or publishing house? I've finished my first novel and am working on the final editing (again). Before this revision, I sent it to a few agents. One sent some very detailed advice in his rejection letter. I've listened to all of it (I happen to agree with him, plus he's a pro and I'm not) but now that I have something that I think is done and good, I'm scared to send it.

My book is a teenage Christian romance novel. Should I have a teen read it since that's my intended audience? Or should I try to find someone who's been published and ask them to read it? I can't currently afford to join the Romance Writers of America so I'm not sure where else to go for advice.
Thanks,
Stacey

[Saanen]

Oh yeah--in fact, the term "beta reader" refers to the person who reads and critiques a polished draft. The ideal beta reader is widely read in the genre you write, is able to give constructive criticism rather than just "I don't like chapter two," and is alert to plot, characterization, and other important factors in the book as well as the overall feel. It sounds really daunting, but you probably already know someone who'll fit the bill. My beta reader is one of my cousins whom I see fairly often, and I also press my mother into service with short fiction.

Incidentally, if you're getting critiques from agents, that's a fantastic sign!

[spacejock2]

If you're asking family or friends to read it, be sure to tell them that it's okay for them to tell you what's wrong with it. The last thing you need is a fluffy response like 'it's good' or 'I loved every page'
When I hand out copies to beta readers I ask them to write in the margins. I'm not worried about grammar or language usage, just whether the story is confusing, or whether there are plot holes to fix, or whether any parts of it drag on the reader.

[Jamesaritchie]

Good God, no! Why would I do that? If they tell me it's good, it was wasted effort. If they tell me things are wrong, it's a confidence shaker. And what do they know, anyway?

I know more about writing than anyone I can think of who might be willing to read my writing. Really, who is there to show it to? If there were a couple of professional writers, ones in my genre, sitting around doing nothing, I might pass around the manuscript. But other than this, heck no.

[spacejock2]

If you want your book to sell well after it's published, it has to appeal to a wider audience. Beta readers (in my opinion) form part of that audience, so I'm more than happy to hear their opinions. And if a couple of them tell me chapter 15 is too slow, or they got confused at the end, I'm going to listen. Stephen King uses beta readers, and they're not best-selling authors or famous editors. They're people he trusts to tell him the truth.
Beta readers don't have to be industry professionals. It's just a market survey amongst your target audience. You can always discard lone objections and concentrate on those which are in agreement.

[Jamesaritchie]

If you want your book to sell well after it's published, it has to appeal to a wider audience. Beta readers (in my opinion) form part of that audience, so I'm more than happy to hear their opinions. And if a couple of them tell me chapter 15 is too slow, or they got confused at the end, I'm going to listen. Stephen King uses beta readers, and they're not best-selling authors or famous editors. They're people he trusts to tell him the truth.
Beta readers don't have to be industry professionals. It's just a market survey amongst your target audience. You can always discard lone objections and concentrate on those which are in agreement.

Yep, Stephen King uses beta readers. But have you ever read about the kind of things he says they tell him? I'm sure some of it is useful, but not much that I've read about. And do you think for a seocnd he couldn't write just as well without them? Most of what I see them catching are things that aren't important, and that any editor would catch without thinking about it.

The concept of beta readers is a pretty new idea. It was sometimes done in days of old, but not very often, and usually not with good results. And somehow I just can't see Sgakespeare or Dickens or Faulkner passing around copies of manuscripts to beta readers. Thank God.

I don't care if you have a hundred beta readers, their reaction will not be the same as the audience that reads your published book. Try it out for yourself. Find a published magazine story and type it, then print it out. Give it to ten readers and tell them you wrote it. Now give the same story in published form to ten other readers, and just ask how they like it. I'll guarantee the two groups will give answers that will be completely different. I can't count the times I've seen this done, and the results are always amazing.

Nothing matters less than whether or not beta readers like or dislike a story. Even asking is dangerous.

Nope, I'm the writer. I'm the one who knows what good writing is, what bad writing is, and what makes a story publishable or unpublishabe, something darned few beta readers have a clue about. If I don't know these things, beta readers are going to be zero help. If I do know these things, the last thing I need is a beta reader who doesn't know complaining about something. If I miss something, I trust an agent or an editor to catch it. I do not trust beta readers to catch it.

Beta readers are, I think, far more a matter of comfort and confidence that of actual benefit.

Though, as I said, give me a professional writer in my own genre, a top agent in my genre, or an acquisitions editor in my genre, someone who actually knows what makes a story publishable or unpublishable, and I'm all for a beta reader. I might not do as they say, but I will listen carefully.

Other than this, I like writers being writers, readers being readers, and never the Twain shall meet the critic.

[spacejock2]

Though, as I said, give me a professional writer in my own genre, a top agent in my genre, or an acquisitions editor in my genre, someone who actually knows what makes a story publishable or unpublishable, and I'm all for a beta reader. I might not do as they say, but I will listen carefully.

They can pick publishable/unpublishable but they're not so hot on picking bestsellers, otherwise every published book would sell up a storm.

What I'm getting at is appeal to the end-user (if I can use that term.) A book might be technically perfect, publishable, etc, etc but not appealing enough to the non-industry reader for word of mouth to do its thing.

I've seen industry professionals and reviewers bemoan the so-called poor writing in JK Rowling's and Dan Brown's books, but you don't hear many complaints from the people buying copies by the truckload. The fact is, they're entertaining and people want to read them. Maybe they could have been edited to a higher plane, but the authors have a knack for engaging stories and you don't hit too many slow parts. (Ditto Stephen King)

When I think my latest WIP is ready I like to canvas opinion from a bunch of readers, and I always ask them to put a big red cross on the page(s) where they put the book down. I realise novels don't have to be non-stop ball-breaking action from beginning to end, but I do think authors have a duty to keep the reader's interest up right the way through.

I'm certainly not trying to convince everyone to use beta readers - I'm only outlining what works for me.

[aruna]

Though, as I said, give me a professional writer in my own genre, a top agent in my genre, or an acquisitions editor in my genre, someone who actually knows what makes a story publishable or unpublishable, and I'm all for a beta reader. I might not do as they say, but I will listen carefully.

Other than this, I like writers being writers, readers being readers, and never the Twain shall meet the critic.

I agree with James.
I sent out my manuscript soon after writing the first draft; I snet it to my then agent and editor. I knew it was still flawed, I knew it needed work. I was also planning to get rid of both of them for a variety of reasons. And anyway, they always got early drafts because that's what my editor wanted.

So I got their comments back and as a result I was able to rewrite the whole thing and make massive changes so that it's almost a different story, with a whole new focus of plot and a major side-plot. Plus huge chunks were deleted. I've since moved away from them both and am looking for a new agent and editor; but I still respect their comments; some I used, some I didn't. Most of all I objected to their opinion that the location I chose to write in was not salable.

Later on, I posted the first chapter on a writers' forum for comment - I just wanted to see what the first reader reactions would be. They were excellenet - but there were questions I was able to address, and more major changes resulted.

Only one person has read the full manuscript since then- several months ago, an agent rejected it, and told me why. I fixed that problem. It's now new and fresh and ready to go out again, and no beta reader has read it, and no beta reader will.

I am sure that there are still flaws in it I can't see myself, but I am hoping that these are flaws that my future editor will advise on.

[maestrowork]

Even the best writers can use a second pair of eyes and another mind to bounce things off of.

It's great that someone like James has an editor and or an agent to serve as that second brain. But for a newbie, who has no agent or editor, it is paramount that you get some betas (good ones, I may add), get their feedback, and polish your work accordingly before you send it off. Now how much you're going to agree and disagree and get out from your betas' feedback is up to you. You may not agree with them AT ALL and the ms. stays the way it is written...

But from my own experience, I always get something insightful out of my betas.

I choose my betas very carefully. My criteria:

- honest and not afraid to speak their minds
- at least one who reads often, preferrably the genres I'm writing
- at least one who doesn't really read that much, or who doesn't really care for my genres -- this beta is my "benchmark." If he keeps turning the page and likes the book, that means I have done something pretty well...
- one person who is analytical, logical and knowledgeable in many things, to point out local flaws and inconsistencies and wrong information...

[scarletpeaches]

I would be wary of giving my MSS to a beta-reader; would that not lend itself to allowing their opinion to influence the story? Of course, you could say, "I know which way I want to take it, and I'll stick to my plan," which is fair enough, but...then why would you want someone else's opinion if you're going to stick to your vision, regardless?

That said, I would like to get some feedback, so I think I'll cheat and give it to people I know will be nice to me, just as a little ego-boost. *chuckle* :D

[maestrowork]

then why would you want someone else's opinion if you're going to stick to your vision, regardless?

That said, I would like to get some feedback, so I think I'll cheat and give it to people I know will be nice to me, just as a little ego-boost. *chuckle* :D

Because my experiences (as a consultant) taught me that brainstorming sometimes yeilds better results. Two minds are better than one... yada yada yada. Obviously, if you have a vision, you definitely should stick with it. But sometimes someone could say something that sparkles that "wait, that's a great idea. Why didn't I think of that?"

I love that part of the creative process.

IMHO, to get a beta for "ego-boost" is a waste of time. It's probably healthier to eat a big tub of chocolate ice cream.

[Alphabet]

One of the things is this: As you write your first draft of your novel (or anything) you tend to think out different possible paths to take, this one, that one, no, I know, I'll do that one. What can happen in that process is you can get confused between what you know you thought about, and what was in any one path, and what has actually already been mentioned - you end up with gaps and loops and repetitions. You think it all makes sense because the whole thing is in your head - and it gets hard to tell whether the bare words on the page really are enough to convey all that knowledge and/or emotion that you KNOW you feel. And of course you feel it, because you had to feel it to write it, which is the exact problem I am describing.

You think it might get better once you've done your edits and re-edits - well, some of it will get better, but you know the worst thing? some of it will get WORSE.. why? because now you know the whole story as it plays out, and the more times you read through it the more that seems known to you, seems obvious, seems like it is excess words now... so as some parts get more cohesive other parts ...well, begin to fall apart.

You really do need someone who didn't invent the story and hasn't read it fifteen times to come along and tell you what you are now incapable of knowing for yourself - how it reads for the first time.

And that's just one thing - never mind spelling, typos, grammar, word choices, pacing and all the rest of the useful information that any beta tasked with paying attention to those areas could provide.

Beta? You Betcha!

[Birol]

The concept of beta readers is a pretty new idea. It was sometimes done in days of old, but not very often, and usually not with good results. And somehow I just can't see Sgakespeare or Dickens or Faulkner passing around copies of manuscripts to beta readers. Thank God.

I believe in Shakespeare's day, writers passing manuscripts around was far more common than it is today.

For my part, I have a trusted writing group, all professional writers with their own unique strengths, that serve as my betas. They are excellent at catching inconsistencies and things that didn't quite make it out of my head and onto the page. I have every confidence that they greatly increased my chances of getting selected from the slush pile. By working with them, my writing has improved.

[PattiTheWicked]

I use beta readers, but to a limited extent. I ask them to look for plot holes, unresolved stuff, sentences that are contradictory, that sort of things. None of my betas are people who would come back and say, "Well, what if you made the main character an astronaut instead of a bookstore clerk, and then you had some genetically engineered dinosaurs stomping through and decimating the Colonial army?"

And two of my betas are writers, but not in my genre, so it's good to get writerly perspective as well.

[Nateskate]

I'd say that any new writer is going to benefit from a second and third opinion. At some point it doesn't hurt to have the blunt opinion from someone who has some type of literary qualifications.

Friends who are afraid to hurt your feelings may be good encouragement, but aren't likely to point out weaknesses.

[maestrowork]

None of my betas are people who would come back and say, "Well, what if you made the main character an astronaut instead of a bookstore clerk, and then you had some genetically engineered dinosaurs stomping through and decimating the Colonial army?"

And two of my betas are writers, but not in my genre, so it's good to get writerly perspective as well.

Good points. If my beta says something like that, he will no longer be my reader.

Except for my writing group (which is a mix of really good people whom I can trust), I tend to avoid getting "writers" as my readers. First, I just want a nice, straightforward reader's perspective. None of that "if I were you, I would have written it this way..." crap. Second, I write for readers, not writers. I want to see if my book makes sense without any glaring plot holes and mistakes, and if the book is engaging to read. Writers (as readers) tend to carry some baggage with them... I know! I can be like that, too. It takes me a while to get into a story because I would be doing that "why does she write it this way? What POV is she using? Why this word?"... it's very counterproductive as a reader....

[scarletpeaches]

It's probably healthier to eat a big tub of chocolate ice cream.

Well, obviously, I do that too.:)

[MarkPettus]

I used a group of readers as a test audience, and I got some great feedback, both positive and negative.

3 professionals:

A well-known writer - told me how to smooth parts of the language, and convinced me to remove most of the almosts and verys from my descriptions.

A female magazine editor - helped me spot some clunky sentences and offered to help me find an agent.

A newspaper editor - along with the first two readers convinced me to relabel my prologue as Prologue (I had labeled it Chapter 1 -- apologies to Uncle Jim - most of your advice worked for me).

6 book buyers (consumers), four of whom read 15 + books a year:

A 23 year old white woman who loves literary fiction. She told me that my writing reminded her of John Irving -- a great help when I started writing my query letter.

A 67 year old female reader with shelves full of James Patterson and Mary Higgins Clark. She read my 90,000 word manuscript in one sitting, and, without saying a word, told me volumes about my pacing.

A woman whose favorite authors are Pat Conroy and Amy Tan, and whose son died in a manner similar to one of my characters, told me that she recognized so many of the details that the story sounded true.

A well-educated black woman who had the story read aloud to her by a gay man convinced me that a sympathetic character can say "******" (the N word) and still be sympathetic.

A gay, white, male doctor who read the story aloud to the black woman -- the two of them convinced me that the one part of the story I thought might drag, a baseball game, was worthy of the extra time (neither was a baseball fan).

A Harvard educated former professor -- an urbane, gay vinophile-- asked me to change the profession of a minor character, a gay man, and the change gave the story more credibility.

The finished novel is much stronger than the draft I gave my early readers, thanks to their suggestions. Several of these people were complete strangers before I asked them to read my ms. I was fortunate to know the writer and the two editors, but if you look through your files for karmic promissory notes, I'll bet every one of you can call on some professional help. If not, newspaper people are very accessible. Call your local paper and ask if anyone on the editorial staff would be interested in reading your ms. They'll do it.

[aruna]

I've written five full-length novels
.
The first one was taken on by an agent who loved it and worked hardon it with me, to bring it up to a standard wheere it might be accepted by a publisher. It stil didn't finr a publisher, but her help was invaluable and I learned mountains of stuff about writing and editing my own work.

The second novel: I wrote a second draft and then desperately needed feedback. I turned toa critique service who gave me a detalied critique, which was excellent. I took on most of the suggestions, after which the lady referred me to an agent, who found me a publisher very quickly. I wokred oin that ms some more with my editor, and learned a wholelot more.

The next two books were written with an editor very close behind me. She saw the first draft of both and was instrumental in grooming them into shape from an early stage. I dicliked that intervention intensely; she was certainly an excellent editor but I already felt the relationship beginning to crack as she tried to move me in a particular direction. I was, however, still two naive and grateful to have a good publisher at all to stand up for myself. But I was not happy with how these two books turned out, and I would have needed far more time until I felt really happy with them.

After that it came to the crunch. I realised I could not be the author my editor wanted me to be and decided not to take a commission for a fourth book; which woul dhave had to be along specific lines. Insstead I abandoned the work I had already started and wrote a novel on my own, without tellng anybody. It was exactly what my editor DIDN'T want, but I didn't care. I believed in it and I knew it was a "true" story that came from the heart. I let her see a second draft in the knowledge that it would be rejected, which was what I wanted. The publisher had a first option and that was the best way of getting out of that.

The rest of the story - I told in an earlier post.
Let's say that a professional eye was essential for the first two books but after that I felt I could do things on my own. I have absoutely no desire to engage beta readers - ever. I want me books to be between my editor and me and God. I don't even like talking about them to anyone.

[azbikergirl]

I use beta readers, but to a limited extent. I ask them to look for plot holes, unresolved stuff, sentences that are contradictory, that sort of things.
Ditto. I hate when people try to tell me, "I'd say it this way" and try to rewrite my sentences. Those folks don't beta read for me anymore. I'm only looking for the kind of feedback PattiTheWicked mentioned above, plus stuff like characters behaving consistently and believably, etc.

[azbikergirl]

Except for my writing group (which is a mix of really good people whom I can trust), I tend to avoid getting "writers" as my readers.
Some readers have a hard time articulating what they liked or didn't like about a book. These folks aren't the ones who write gazillions of reviews on Amazon, of course, but friends and relatives who love to read.

Where do you find non-writer readers aside from your circle of friends/family? All of my beta readers have been fellow writers, but if I knew of a source of beta readers who weren't also writers, I'd be all over that!

[MarkPettus]

Where do you find non-writer readers aside from your circle of friends/family? All of my beta readers have been fellow writers, but if I knew of a source of beta readers who weren't also writers, I'd be all over that!

I went to the library, and to Books-A-Million... pretended I was a creepy stalker, a role I was born to play...

[brinkett]

I ask them to look for plot holes, unresolved stuff, sentences that are contradictory, that sort of things.

That's what I use betas for. I don't mind at all if betas point out clunky sentences or grammatical errors, but that's the sort of thing I'll catch myself when revising.


None of my betas are people who would come back and say, "Well, what if you made the main character an astronaut instead of a bookstore clerk, and then you had some genetically engineered dinosaurs stomping through and decimating the Colonial army?"
If someone said that to me, I'd say, "Write your own story."

[Stacey Sweeney]

Okay, you guys have given me a lot to think about.

I do have someone specific in mind I plan on asking to read the ms. She's the mom of 4 girls, two who are teens. She would be able to tell me if she would allow here daughters to read my book. (They are Christian as is the book.) One of my main concerns is that I'm writing "too old" for my intended audience. I'm not a teen anymore and want to be sure that I'm keeping the book clean enough. She'd also be able to tell me if I'm writing "too young" for my intended audience, causing the readers to feel patronized. From her I wouldn't be looking for plot holes, etc. though I would still appreciate her opinion. I also don't plan on asking her for grammer help/editing. I want the book to sound real, therefore it has some slang and typical grammer mistakes of speech.

I would also like to ask her daughter(s) to read it and just tell me the basics: is it interesting, is it boring, can you relate to the characters, can you get lost in the story, etc.

Other than those two, I wouldn't know who else to even ask. I don't know any other teens.

I guess my only question now would be: Is there any benefits to asking people outside of your intended audience to read it? In my specific case, I've never had a novel published (just shorter children's stories) so I'm pretty new to the publishing world. Until an agent suggested a self-editing book to me, I didn't even know they existed, yet the one he suggested has helped kick my manuscript up a couple notches.

Is there some specific type of person I should be asking to read my ms? If so, where would I find that person? Or would it be better to just try a couple more agents, and wait for their feedback since they are pros?

Also, some of you guys mentioned editors and agents. I have neither. Someday maybe, but not for now. That's normal right? I mean, most people don't work with either an agent or an editor until they are a published author, do they?

Thanks,
Stacey

[spacejock2]

Also, some of you guys mentioned editors and agents. I have neither. Someday maybe, but not for now. That's normal right? I mean, most people don't work with either an agent or an editor until they are a published author, do they?

Agents might make suggestions if they're considering taking you on as a client. Or they might include a few suggestions in a rejection letter.

Editors only work with you once your book has been accepted, unless you're hiring one for a critique.

I have an editor but not an agent. I deal directly with my publisher.

Cheers
Simon

[Mistook]

I'm unagented and uneditored, and still hashing out the first draft of my first serious attempt at a novel. Advice off this board has been priceless, as has been the comments of random "betas" on SYW over the year.

I guess it's important to keep in mind, James' sentiment that you are the writer, you should know what you're doing. Ultimately it does rest with you. You might read all the novels in the world, and study all the advice. You might have three hundred betas giving you feedback, but in the end it's still your writing, and you have to commit to something.

Uncle Jim says when you get to the point where you're changing "and" to "but" in the morning, and changing it back in the afternoon, the MS is done. I'd say if you're on that first draft, and you get to the point where the betas are squabbling back and forth about minor points, you have to look at the big picture.

If they're all reading the whole peice, and if they all care about your characters, and understand the story, you're doing great. That's the time to revise and call the thing done.

With betas, always consider the source. I do a fair amount of critting myself, but I'd hope the writer took into account who I am, and my general bent on things. I'm gripey and critical by nature, and I'm also an unpublished maintenance man. It would be a big mistake to take my feedback as editor-gospel.

Not long ago I received some scathing feedback from a guy I really respected. I knew he was intelligent, and well read. He gave me some of his stuff to look at as a return favor. I was stunned at how bad his writing was. The worst thing in SYW would've put it to shame. I can't begin to describe how awful.

So I made nice and said what I could. I didn't want to pan him, or he'd think I was exacting revenge for his sour criticism of my own stuff. I realized that day you have to know who you're dealing with when you get feedback.

[Cathy C]

I've used beta readers since day one -- but I didn't necessarily call them that. They were just friends who read the genre and knew I expected them to be brutal about the quality, the plot, the characters, etc. I still do it, even though I have a publisher. I make bound manuscripts the same day as I send it to the editor. That way, the readers might catch gaping plot holes, typos and the like during the edit period. Sometimes, they're even ones that the editor MISSED on the first go-round! All of my readers are either professional reviewers, bookstore owners/managers or other authors. The reviewers do the best job, because they're looking for problems when they'd write a review. But I've gotten the most consistently valid comments from the bookstore owners. They love books and have often read much of their stock.


But the thing with beta readers is you have to absolutely know what you expect from them. I expect them to look for poor plot, characterization and general purpose errors. I might change things they spot, but I might not. Sometimes, what might be perceived as an "error" really isn't.

Ultimately, you should NEVER look for a beta reader to validate your skill. If you're looking for an extra pair of eyes, and those eyes are qualified to look for problems in the structure of the book, then great. But I'd hesitate to ask a reader if it's a "good" story, because that's so incredibly subjective as to lack any merit for the salability.

[Nateskate]

Beta readers are all intelligent and well read professionals. However, they are not professional editors. They may have insight on whether something is working in the story, but generally speaking unless they have some editing experience, they may leave you with a general sense of direction.

A Pro will most likely identify specific areas of weakness, and examples. They will make drastic suggestions, like adding a character or deleting a character, or perhaps an entire chapter.

Here are comments a pro might make. "I want to see more of Ed. He is interesting...", "Where did Betty go? I haven't seen her since chapter two?", "You need to describe the room here...what was he wearing?", "Two much narrative here..."

In other words, they don't write a story for you, but they will go chapter by chapter and tell you more specifically what is lacking, what isn't working, and what irks them.

[scarletpeaches]

All those 'pro' comments could be made by a beta-reader as well; they're not stupid. All you have to do is choose an intelligent one, and there are plenty out there. If they are well read (and hopefully you wouldn't choose someone who wasn't) they would be just as observant of characters and plot threads as a so-called pro.

[LightShadow]

Agents before the book is published, editor after. Oh, and my beta reader is my wife. Does a peachy job, because she doesn't hold back. No sweet words about how good it is. She'll come right out and say what needs to be said. Chapter two has me confused. In chapter 8 why did so and so do such and such when obviously in chapter 6 you indicate a personality trait that would not allow him to naturally do what you have him doing in chapter 8? How come after so and so got hurt in chapter 9 he's fine and dandy in 11 without the injury ever being mentioned in 10? Typo here, here, here and here! You get the picture, I think.