What is a Scene?

Diviner · Sep 1, 2005

I keep mulling over this bit of advice taped to my computer. "It isn't a scene until something changes. When it does, move on." The advice (Sol Stein?) indicates life changes, like love to hate, fear to trust, etc., not just learning someone's phone number.

I also have the scene, sequel reminder there:
Scene: goal, conflict, disaster
Sequel: reaction, dilemma, decision.

These little reminders confuse me, for I sometimes write what I think of as scenes where there is little conflict, just a sort of showing of relationships or mindsets.

I am wondering if some types of writing (like literary novels) need more space, as opposed to action or adventure novels. If I am a writer who likes to explore nuance, does that make an acceptable scene, even it the only change is in the reader understanding, not so much that of the characters? Is conflict the only thing that draws readers into a story?

Valona · Sep 1, 2005

Conflict can take on many guises. It doesn’t have to physical. To me, the best books are those in which a character undergoes conflicts in his mind, emotions, etc.

Yes, I agree in a scene, something has to change, but it can be as minor as learning a phone number, if that phone number is very important to the story.

As for your scene - sequel criteria:

"Scene: goal, conflict, disaster
Sequel: reaction, dilemma, decision."

Those are good. I read that in Jack Bickham's book on scene/sequel novel construction. Again, however, the conflict and disaster don't have to be earth shattering, or even physical. They can be emotional, mental, or whatever causes the reader to say "Oh, my!"

Hope this helps.

victoriastrauss · Sep 1, 2005

Diviner said:
I also have the scene, sequel reminder there:
Scene: goal, conflict, disaster
Sequel: reaction, dilemma, decision.

I think these kinds of deconstructions of story structure (and there are lots of them) are akin to mnemonic memory aids: they are supposed to stimulate a thought process, not to be a rigid mold into which you have to cram your writing. If you find them helpful, that's great; but if they confuse you, don't sweat it--without a doubt, there's some alternative deconstruction out there that might work better for you. Or perhaps you should just follow your own instinct, instead of someone else's.

I find the whole scene/sequel thing extremely hard to conceptualize; it doesn't speak to me at all.

- Victoria

alleycat · Sep 1, 2005

victoriastrauss said:
I find the whole scene/sequel thing extremely hard to conceptualize; it doesn't speak to me at all.

- Victoria

One of the best explainations of “beats, scene, sequences” that I’ve come across is in the book Story by Robert McKee. The book was written for screenwriters but much of the information could be used by any writer. I think you would find it helpful.

ac

Euan H. · Sep 1, 2005

Diviner said:
If I am a writer who likes to explore nuance, does that make an acceptable scene, even it the only change is in the reader understanding, not so much that of the characters? Is conflict the only thing that draws readers into a story?

I think the answer to all of them is: it depends.

First, conflict doesn't always have to be overt. You could have a scene in which two characters are struggling for something, but neither of them realises that's what's happening, and maybe the reader won't either until later on in the book.

Second, scenes are not the only way to construct a story. Damon Knight has an article on the different types of short story (1). One of the types he gives is the 'revelation' story, where the story is not about the conflict going one way or another, but about the reader coming to understand something. (He uses 'The Lottery' as an example of this type of story.)

Third, I think that the scene-sequel structure (yes, I've got that guy's book, too), is useful, but it's only a schema, and it works better with some kinds of fiction (thrillers, IMO) than others. If you think your story is going to move differently, then do it.

Last, is conflict the only way to pull a reader into the story? IMO, no. You could also use the reader's desire to find out what's going on to pull them onward (like the first line of 1984). But, I think the only thing that's going to keep readers reading past the first couple of pages is having a character who in conflict.

Anyway, my 2c.

(1) http://www.theroseandthornezine.com/Article/33Plot.html

(Sorry, I don't know how to do the nifty link-inserting thing.)

Mistook · Sep 1, 2005

Diviner said:
I am wondering if some types of writing (like literary novels) need more space, as opposed to action or adventure novels. If I am a writer who likes to explore nuance, does that make an acceptable scene, even it the only change is in the reader understanding, not so much that of the characters? Is conflict the only thing that draws readers into a story?

This same question has been coming up in different forms lately. I know I've been struggling with it. Obviously there's more to any story than conflict. If action and conflict were the only important things to master, then nobody would be out here scoffing at cardboard characters and ill-defined scenery.

Diviner · Sep 2, 2005

[/QUOTE]
Second, scenes are not the only way to construct a story. Damon Knight has an article on the different types of short story (1). One of the types he gives is the 'revelation' story, where the story is not about the conflict going one way or another, but about the reader coming to understand something. (He uses 'The Lottery' as an example of this type of story.)

Third, I think that the scene-sequel structure (yes, I've got that guy's book, too), is useful, but it's only a schema, and it works better with some kinds of fiction (thrillers, IMO) than others. If you think your story is going to move differently, then do it.

Last, is conflict the only way to pull a reader into the story? IMO, no. You could also use the reader's desire to find out what's going on to pull them onward (like the first line of 1984). But, I think the only thing that's going to keep readers reading past the first couple of pages is having a character who in conflict.

Anyway, my 2c.

(1) http://www.theroseandthornezine.com/Article/33Plot.html

[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the link and also your comments. Like some of the others suggested, my little post-its are effective guides, but I am glad to get some support that other ways of approaching story telling also have their place.

One of the things that troubles me is when exactly to move on. It is easy enough to make a resounding conclusion with the "decision," but sometimes the post-scene transitions seem worthy of attention, too, almost new scenes. When is a summary better story telling and when is detailed "in the moment" writing effective?

Euan H. · Sep 5, 2005

Diviner said:
When is a summary better story telling and when is detailed "in the moment" writing effective?

Heh. I don't think anyone can tell you that. Maybe try writing it both ways and then seeing which one you like more (but in the context of the whole flow of the story, not just as an isolated chunk of text).

zornhau · Sep 6, 2005

IMHO, the classic scene goes conflict-resolution-implication.

Big However: Some short scenes have no immediate conflict, but are part of a larger arc. In effect, these scenes show the pieces getting into position for the clash.

A classic instance of this is in Tom Clancy's Red Storm Rising. In the first part of the novel, we see the USSR gearing up for war, and the USA trying to work out what's happening - a classic race against time. (I had a stab at explaining this here: http://www.livejournal.com/users/zornhau/28245.html)

Short scenes like this only work if the arc's conflict is clearly established right from the start. It also helps if the scenes interract: I'll do this... Right, he's done that, I'll do this!... She's done that, so I'll do this.

IMHO, long scenes with no immediate confliict suck. There's a very good article on this from a scriptwriter POV here: Site link removed per request of other site's Webmaster

Diviner · Sep 7, 2005

zornhau said:
IMHO, the classic scene goes conflict-resolution-implication.

Big However: Some short scenes have no immediate conflict, but are part of a larger arc. In effect, these scenes show the pieces getting into position for the clash.

A classic instance of this is in Tom Clancy's Red Storm Rising. In the first part of the novel, we see the USSR gearing up for war, and the USA trying to work out what's happening - a classic race against time. (I had a stab at explaining this here: http://www.livejournal.com/users/zornhau/28245.html)

Short scenes like this only work if the arc's conflict is clearly established right from the start. It also helps if the scenes interract: I'll do this... Right, he's done that, I'll do this!... She's done that, so I'll do this.

IMHO, long scenes with no immediate confliict suck. There's a very good article on this from a scriptwriter POV here: Site link removed per request of other site's Webmaster

This helps, especially the comments about when and how to leave a scene. My book, an adventure story with multiple points of view, jumps some, from an exciting and tragic event in history to the lives of common people who are affected by it. There is a definite contrast in the drama being played out that I hadn't thoughtabout the implications of story-telling wise. The screenwriters suggestion that the reader needs to be ready to leave a scene by following it with and equally interesting scene that pushes the story along is something I need to deal with.

Thanks.

LightShadow · Sep 8, 2005

I don't worry about technicals. I read a lot, so the right thing to do is ingrained on my soul. I mainly provide conflict (of all kinds), be my characters until they live and breath in my mind, omit unnecessary words, remove needless dialogue attribution, and get rid of most of the to-be verbs. mainly, it's all about the characters. characters are plot. playing with pov sometimes helps with providing distinct scenes.

zornhau · Sep 9, 2005

An equally valid philosophy, of course. However, OP was stuck on technical problem, so this evidently didn't work for them!

What is a Scene?

Diviner

Valona

victoriastrauss

Writer Beware Goddess

alleycat

Still around

Euan H.

Unspeakable

Mistook

Neverending WIP

Diviner

Euan H.

Unspeakable

zornhau

Swordsman

Diviner

LightShadow

defender of the blahs!

zornhau

Swordsman