Okay, what's this complaint of Prince of Persia about? [Archive]

spacecatlucky

05-26-2010, 07:20 AM

I'm talking about the movie here, not the video games.

I just found out on the news today that people are complaining that the Prince of Persia is white instead of Persian and I'm thinking, "Does anyone even think anymore?!"

Firstly, in case anyone hasn't noticed, Hollywood hardly has any middle-eastern actors other than Omar Sharif who's like what, 80, now? Secondly, who the HELL cares?!

Hollywood has a long history of white actors playing other races and no one has ever complained about them. John Wayne played as Genghis Kahn, a Mongol, in The Conquerer. Charlton Heston played the lead role, a Spaniard, in El Cid. Hell, even Antonio Banderas played an Arab in The Thirteenth Warrior. And all of them were well performed.

So what's the big complaint about?! This just shows just how stupid people are today! We used to have the best education in America! Now it's all gone the drain because of stupid people like this! God! These people make me sick!

Sorry eveyone, but I just get really furious whenever I see something like this. They say the Jake Gylleanal is an insult to Prince of Persia because of the color of his skin, but in truth, they're the real insults because of their stupidity.

KTC

05-26-2010, 07:21 AM

I find your post insulting.

Cyia

05-26-2010, 07:23 AM

I find your post insulting.

Ditto.

mscelina

05-26-2010, 07:38 AM

Once upon a time, Caucasian actors performed in blackface to do minstrel shows (Al Jolsen anyone? Even Shirley Temple?)and in red makeup to portray Native Americans.

and you don't see a problem with this?

The REASON people are complaining about this is not because they're STUPID but because they're NOT STUPID ENOUGH to think there aren't any actors of Middle Eastern descent in Hollywood to play the role.

Here's some advice for you: brace your legs, pull really hard and pop that head right up out of the sand. The Prince of Persia is NOT a Disney animated feature and their racial travesties. It is a movie about a prince of PERSIA--you know, Persia? The Middle East? There are thousands of actors of Middle Eastern descent, and Hollywood of all places shouldn't be too chicken shit to let a man of color portray a member of his own race.

Smish

05-26-2010, 07:48 AM

:Wha:

Seriously? Wow.

CACTUSWENDY

05-26-2010, 08:03 AM

Sorry Space, but I too think your rant is misguided. I like the actor that plays the part, but do think that Hollywood missed the boat on this one. They always seem to be a few years behind the rest of the world. I'm afraid you will not find many on the AW forums that feel the same way you do because as writers we tend to view things in a more real life way.

slcboston

05-26-2010, 08:10 AM

Antonio Banderas at least *looked* somewhat of Middle Eastern descent... a little.. if you squinted.

(and hey, Moors in Spain, not so far off)

but, yeah, there were a lot of options other than the white bread they found for the role. Plenty of whom can act, too.

vnNichols

05-26-2010, 08:36 AM

LOL. Fer real? No one has ever complained about this before?

Wavy_Blue

05-26-2010, 08:42 AM

Mmmmm no. I think it's a completely legitimate complaint.

Will I boycott the film because of it? No. Was it a serious missed opportunity? Yes.

Cyia

05-26-2010, 08:56 AM

Picture Gone With the Wind cast with Scarlet O'Hara as a Korean woman given blue contacts and Rhett Butler as a man from Somalia wearing pancake make-up to lighten his skin. The lines are the same, the acting is terrific, but something would still not ring true.

Or imagine Ghandi played by a skinny white guy with a lot of bronzer. It just doesn't work when there are actors available who actually fit the role.

(Michael Clarke Duncan playing Kingpen is an exception to this, IMO. There was no other actor who could play that part and he was the only thing worth watching in Daredevil. KP should have been a Spider-Man villain for the film franchise with MCD playing him.)

maestrowork

05-26-2010, 09:06 AM

Naveen Andrews played an Iraqi in Lost.

Jake Gyllenhaal is Greek. if you suggest Banderas, who is Spanish, to play a Persian, then you should also agree that a Greek could play one. after all, Greece was closer to Persia. ;)

Anyway, yes, white actors have played ethnic roles before, but I find this "who cares" attitude troubling and insulting. I'm a minority actor and I for one would be seriously insulted if some said, "have a white guy play Asain [a la Micky Rooney in Breakfast at Tiffany's or Charlie Chan] and who cares?"

maestrowork

05-26-2010, 09:08 AM

And seriously, OP, if the only middle eastern actor you can think of is Omar Sherif, then you have no right to call other people stupid.

envision

05-26-2010, 09:38 AM

1. Hollywood has way more Middle Eastern actors than you know. Selma Hayek, Keanu Reeves, etc. They may not be pure Middle East, but Hollywood is powerful enough to find famous Middle East actors (whether they're famous in the U.S., in Bollywood, or in their own countries).

2. People do rip into the decision of letting John Wayne play Ghengis Kahn. It's actually listed by many people as the worst John Wayne film ever. Also, back in those days, there were truly very few people in Hollywood who could look like a Mongol and they didn't have fancy ways of contacting people in an instant such as the Internet.

People also make jokes about the great Sir Anthony Hopkins playing the father of Benicio del Toro because he doesn't look anything like Benicio. He's a talented actor, but it's still a bit questionable.

I can sort of get where you're coming from b/c I didn't agree with people claiming that Avatar was racist toward Native Americans (and I'm part Native American). Maybe you don't like everyone waving the race card at every single thing and that's understandable. However, calling people stupid b/c they believe that the Prince of Persia should look Arabic--even though he quite light-skinned in the video game photos--is a bit rude. Especially since Hollywood took a risk by making a film based on a popular game in which not everyone has played. Therefore, they may not realize the resemblance and they may think that Hollywood was once again turning down talented individuals for someone with a big name (regardless of talent).

TrickyFiction

05-26-2010, 10:00 AM

Anyway, yes, white actors have played ethnic roles before, but I find this "who cares" attitude troubling and insulting. I'm a minority actor and I for one would be seriously insulted if some said, "have a white guy play Asain [a la Micky Rooney in Breakfast at Tiffany's or Charlie Chan] and who cares?"

This. It's a cycle, and a bad one. There are quite a few middle-eastern actors out there, but MAYBE we don't see them as often as we should because white actors keep getting their roles. That takes an opportunity away from the people the roles should have gone to, and it diminishes the script with poor casting. It will bother me, for sure, and I plan to avoid Prince of Persia for that reason. Hollywood needs to start casting appropriately. Between this and the uproar over The Last Airbender, hopefully they get the hint.

BenPanced

05-26-2010, 10:04 AM

Firstly, in case anyone hasn't noticed, Hollywood hardly has any middle-eastern actors other than Omar Sharif who's like what, 80, now?
Google's your friend.
Secondly, who the HELL cares?!
The Middle Eastern actors and actresses who were passed over for the roles in the movie?
Hollywood has a long history of white actors playing other races and no one has ever complained about them. John Wayne played as Genghis Kahn, a Mongol, in The Conquerer. Charlton Heston played the lead role, a Spaniard, in El Cid. Hell, even Antonio Banderas played an Arab in The Thirteenth Warrior. And all of them were well performed.
Tell that to the Korean or Japanese actresses who were always typecast as whores or maids or the actors who were always typecast as mystics, kung-fu experts, and mystic kung-fu experts.
So what's the big complaint about?! This just shows just how stupid people are today! We used to have the best education in America! Now it's all gone the drain because of stupid people like this! God! These people make me sick!
Yeah, damn those non-white people who don't know when they have it so good and can actually work at a decent job for decent pay. How dare anybody complain when we're a nation of total equality.
< /sarcasm >
Sorry eveyone, but I just get really furious whenever I see something like this. They say the Jake Gylleanal is an insult to Prince of Persia because of the color of his skin, but in truth, they're the real insults because of their stupidity.
I hope you realize how stupid you sound.

TrickyFiction

05-26-2010, 10:08 AM

Hollywood has a long history of white actors playing other races...

Also, the theater has a long history of having boys play all the women's roles and not allowing girls to act. We eventually realized how stupid that was and started casting women to play women.

Mac H.

05-26-2010, 11:12 AM

.. I just found out on the news today that people are complaining that the Prince of Persia is white instead of Persian and I'm thinking, "Does anyone even think anymore?!"

...
Now it's all gone the drain because of stupid people like this! God! These people make me sick!I appreciate that you don't particularly care about the issue (I can't get excited over it either) - but why are you convinced that people who do care about it are stupid ?

There are plenty of issues I don't care about - should I assume that people who do care about those issues are stupid ?

How about you give a list of issues that you care about, so people who feel differently can brand you as stupid ?

Mac

kaitie

05-26-2010, 02:30 PM

Yeah, Maestrowork. My first thought was wow, someone who managed to not ever watch Lost. There are definitely Middle Easter actors out there. Granted, they're currently being cast as bad guys in just about every movie they're in, but that's another story.

Anyway, yes, I do think this is a missed opportunity. Maybe because they didn't have a big name Middle Eastern actor and they weren't willing to give the part of a potentially big movie to anyone who didn't have a big enough name to help sell it. I imagine in Hollywood that's what it comes down most of the time. The sad thing is that things like this are part of what causes minority actors to not have the same kind of standing, IMO. The really sad thing is that minority actors are often typecast into certain roles as well. Think of Jackie Chan, for instance.

Anyway yes, I think they definitely could have done much better than this. And I definitely feel bad for any of the actors who were passed over to give another already famous white guy another big role.

DeleyanLee

05-26-2010, 03:47 PM

They could've given the job to Oded Fehr (Ardeth from the Mummy movies). There's tons of us fangirls who would've gone to see a stupid video game movie if he'd been starring. He's Israeli, but he is at least from the right region of the world and has played an Arab before.

Yeah, I think their cast is a reoccurring blindness in Hollywood. Not much excuse for it in this day and age at all.

Cyia

05-26-2010, 03:52 PM

There are some actors who were on 24 who would fit the role nicely.

(Isn't it amazing how Hollywood has no trouble finding actors of Middle Eastern or Arab descent when they want to fill the role of terrorist in a TV show or film? And not a one of them is Omar Sharif.)

aruna

05-26-2010, 04:00 PM

Wow. Just wow. I'm glad that my automatic first reaction to the OP post doesn't make me an outsider!

KTC

05-26-2010, 04:05 PM

Wow. Just wow. I'm glad that my automatic first reaction to the OP post doesn't make me an outsider!

Good God, no. For what it's worth, I exercised a truckload of restraint in my first reply. A TRUCKLOAD.

Maryn

05-26-2010, 05:08 PM

For the record:

Jake Gyllenhaal is not Greek. "His father is of partial Swedish heritage and his mother is of Ashkenazi Jewish heritage." (IMDb.com) He was born in Los Angeles.

Keanu Reeves is not Middle Eastern. He was born in Lebanon, to a British mother and a father "of Hawaiian, Chinese, Portuguese and English descent." (Wikipedia.)

Maryn, who likes Gyllenhaal well enough, but not in this role

ether

05-26-2010, 05:42 PM

Or imagine Ghandi played by a skinny white guy with a lot of bronzer. It just doesn't work when there are actors available who actually fit the role.

I completely agree with your comments, although in the case of Gandhi... He was played by Ben Kingsley in the 1982 movie. And while I think his dad was Indian (I think?), Ben himself looks... pretty white. He also played one of the main Jewish characters in Schindler's List.

Although in his case, I consider him to be an actor that can pull off pretty much any role.

They could've given the job to Oded Fehr (Ardeth from the Mummy movies). There's tons of us fangirls who would've gone to see a stupid video game movie if he'd been starring. He's Israeli, but he is at least from the right region of the world and has played an Arab before.

Ohmygod. I would've been all over going to see it if Oded Fehr were in it. He would've been an amazing choice.

IdiotsRUs

05-26-2010, 06:04 PM

They could've given the job to Oded Fehr (Ardeth from the Mummy movies). There's tons of us fangirls who would've gone to see a stupid video game movie if he'd been starring. He's Israeli, but he is at least from the right region of the world and has played an Arab before.

Hell yes. I wouldn't care how much the film sucked if I could dribble over him a bit...

*gazes dreamily at picture of Oded sitting above her PC*

aruna

05-26-2010, 06:43 PM

Actually, I'd never heard of Prince of Persia (movie or game or controversy) before reading this thread.

I immediately thought it was referring to my own favourite Prince of Persia, the Mughal Emperor Akbar; as played in the Bollywood movie Jodhaa Akbar by the absolutely gorgeous Hrithik Roshan. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6TwGQ7qfbvc&feature=related) Now THAT's an actor who could play the part...
(assuming that the Prince of Persia is supposed to be gorgeeous)

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h266/arunadasi/funny%20stuff/normal_Hrithik20Roshan20Aishwarya20.jpg

BenPanced

05-26-2010, 06:53 PM

Hey, look what came up on Goodsearch: an entire casting agency devoted to Middle Eastern actors and actresses! (http://middleeasterncasting.com/)

But I guess since the producers wanted a huge return on the investment, they went for a "name" first.

Jcomp

05-26-2010, 07:00 PM

I think the "whitewashing" of the upcoming Last Airbender flick might be even worse. Gyllenhall's casting is controversial for obvious reasons, but from a business standpoint an argument could be made that his "star power" trumped the need for ethnic accuracy (a fairly weak argument as Gyllenhall is far from a huge box office draw and the majority of people going to see this flick are doing it for the effects and action, not the star, but at least it's an argument that exists).

In the Last Airbender the cast is going to be largely unknowns either way. There just aren't that many big name child actors. So the "whitewashing" there is all the more inexcusable.

Cathy C

05-26-2010, 07:02 PM

I wasn't aware the controversy existed until now, but I did find myself thinking the other day when I saw the advertisement on TV, "Wow, there was a Prince of Persia who was from a caucasian country?" It's possible for it to happen. Invasions of other blood lines happened. But if that's not what happened in the plot, then yeah--they missed the boat. Bollywood is full of actors who would have leapt at the role.

Pity. :(

aruna

05-26-2010, 07:05 PM

Slumdog Millionaire went a long towards showing that even a movie with no-name ethnic actors can, surprise surprise, be successful. But knowing Hollywood, they would probably have cast Brangelina in the leading roles...

Cranky

05-26-2010, 07:08 PM

Nobody told me there was a meeting of the Oded Fehr fan club in here! *fans self*

Okay. More seriously, my thought upon seeing the trailer, spoken aloud to my husband was: "Jake Gyllenhall? Seriously? I like him well enough in most everything I've seen him in (especially October Sky), but as the Prince of PERSIA? Nu-uh."

Guess that lumps me in with the stupid crowd, which puts me in pretty good company, IMO.

BenPanced

05-26-2010, 07:13 PM

:e2hammer:

It feels so good when I stop!

maestrowork

05-26-2010, 07:23 PM

Oded Fehr is a bit too old. Naveen Andrews would have been great.

I can understand the "star power" thing but do we need to cast Hugh Jackman as the King of Siam just to make a few bucks at the box office? (At least Yul Brynner was part Mongolian)

ChaosTitan

05-26-2010, 07:26 PM

I hadn't heard of this movie until last week, when I first saw a trailer for it on TV. My first thought was, "They're trying to make Jake G. an action star? Seriously?" Actually, that was my only thought, because I have no desire to see the movie.

I looked up the summary on IMDB anyway.

Set in medieval Persia, the story of an adventurous prince who teams up with a rival princess to stop an angry ruler from unleashing a sandstorm that could destroy the world. Which is why after the prince was tricked by a dying Vizier to unleash the Sands of Time that turns out to destroy a kingdom and transforms its populace into ferocious demons. In his effort to save his own kingdom and redeem his fatal mistake, it's up to the prince and the princess to return the sands to the hourglass by using the Dagger of Time, which also gives him a limited control over the flow of time.

Bolding mine.

This movie isn't real life or based on real historical figures. It's a video game fantasy. Historical accuracy went out the window with the plot, so the casting of a Hollywood "name" doesn't really surprise me.

maestrowork

05-26-2010, 07:28 PM

Maybe they'll try to explain that the Prince of Persia came from Scandinavia and was once a Viking but now he's a Persian Prince!

JamieFord

05-26-2010, 07:34 PM

Wow. Looks like the original poster has now retreated to his doomsday bunker in upstate Idaho.

Speaking of racebending, here's a fun clip. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FbibEFBkQGk&feature=player_embedded) The Airbender bit is at the end.

Shadow_Ferret

05-26-2010, 07:35 PM

Hollywood has a long history of white actors playing other races and no one has ever complained about them. John Wayne played as Genghis Kahn, a Mongol, in The Conquerer.

Seriously? You're using the WORST MOVIE EVER MADE as the basis for your argument?

BenPanced

05-26-2010, 07:41 PM

Seriously? You're using the WORST MOVIE EVER MADE as the basis for your argument?
"She is a woman - much woman. Should her perfidy be less than that of other women?"

"I feel this Tartar woman is for me, and my blood says, take her. There are moments for wisdom and moments when I listen to my blood; my blood says, take this Tartar woman."

Meh. You work with what you got.

Jcomp

05-26-2010, 08:17 PM

Seriously? You're using the WORST MOVIE EVER MADE as the basis for your argument?

Ha. Right. The movie literally killed John Wayne, amongst several other actors involved.

Cyia

05-26-2010, 08:34 PM

In defense of Ghengis Khan's casting. (i fell sorry for the poor movie getting all dog piled :( You meanies!)It's hard to find a real Mongol these days with red hair and grey eyes.

(Of course, JW had neither of those...)

ChaosTitan

05-26-2010, 08:37 PM

Maybe they'll try to explain that the Prince of Persia came from Scandinavia and was once a Viking but now he's a Persian Prince!

Or he's not even Persian, because he's an orphan discovered by the Queen floating down the river in a basket....

Wait...wrong movie...

maestrowork

05-26-2010, 08:38 PM

I have a strange feeling that the OP is white.

IdiotsRUs

05-26-2010, 08:42 PM

Oded Fehr is a bit too old.

You take that back!

som1luvsmi

05-26-2010, 08:44 PM

You know, my first reaction to a Prince of Persia trailer was "Why the hell does the Prince of Persia have a British accent???" Followed by "Jake Gyllenhal isn't Persian!" And then, of course,"Jake Gyllenhal isn't even British! WTF!!!"

And just to add to everyone else: Oded Fehr = yummm :)

Kitty27

05-26-2010, 09:00 PM

First,Oded Fehr is MY man. *stalker cackle*

If they had cast him,I'd have camped outside the theater.

Second,Jigga what?

There is a complaint because us minorities,well,we LIKE to see someone who looks like us onscreen. Especially because dude is supposed to be Persian!

Imagine a blonde playing Queen Nzinga of Angola. Or a black guy playing King Henry VIII.

There is no excuse. Jake Gyllenhaal,while I adore him,is NOT a box office draw. Nor is he suitable to play the Prince Of Persia. This BS about Hollywood not casting unknowns in big budget films is a lie.They do it all the time.

They couldn't give a promising young actor who IS Middle Eastern a chance? They couldn't conduct a search?

With this horrendous miscast and the atrocity of The Last Airbender,the whitewashing is insulting and extreme. It insults white movegoers by implying they wouldn't DARE go to a movie with minority leads and it tells minorities that we aren't valued whatsoever.

Those movies mentioned happened during an era of segregation and minorities were barely cast in anything. In 2010,there is NO excuise for this sort of mess. None.

Kitty27

05-26-2010, 09:08 PM

autumnleaf

05-26-2010, 09:10 PM

The OP was a bit trollish, I hate stupid casting like John Wayne as Ghengis Khan, and I was fully on Ursula Le Guin's side when she complained about a whitewashed Earthsea. But in the interests of sheer pedantry....

"Wow, there was a Prince of Persia who was from a caucasian country?"

Well, yes. From Persia.

Persia/Iran is an ethnically diverse part of the world. It's been on a major trade route for centuries. Most of its people have caucasian features along with brown skin and dark hair, similar to southern Europens and northern Africans. There are also minorities such as the Kurds (who tend to be fair-skinned and light-eyed) and Turkmens (who are of asiatic ancestry).

Wavy_Blue

05-26-2010, 09:16 PM

I actually think this is a worse situation that The Last Airbender one. The world of TLA was inspired by Asia, but it doesn't take place in a real Asian setting, like Prince of Persia takes place in a real Persian setting. Also, if the rumors about Noah Ringer (Aang) being half-Asian are true, then the only serious miscasts were Katara and Sokka, who would have been played by young Inuit actors.

I think it's also important to point out that M.Night, recognizing the casting controversy, has decided to cast a Chinese actor for the part of Toph in the second movie. Since she's arguably the most popular character, I think this is a big step forward. The backlash is making a difference. Sometimes mistakes are the only way to make changes for the better. It's still not right, but at least the TLA crew is trying to make things better after their initial miscasts. They did, after all, bump Jesse McCartney for Dev Patel for Zuko, and cast an entirely Asian Indian Fire Nation and an entirely Chinese Earth Kingdom. That's a step in the right direction.

...I don't know much about the Prince of Persia movie, but are there any Middle-Eastern actors in the cast at all?

Kitty27

05-26-2010, 09:32 PM

Cyia

05-26-2010, 09:33 PM

This BS about Hollywood not casting unknowns in big budget films is a lie.They do it all the time.

No kidding. Check the LOtR cast against how well they were known before that movie.

John Rhys-Davies or Ian McKellen were the closest thing to a "name" star they had in it. (great actors, both, but hardly names that could have carried a major blockbuster) Other than that, it was "that guy who was an actor as a kid" (Elijah Wood), "Oh, that guy who was the villain in...." (Sean Bean) and "wasn't he the drill sergeant from GI Jane?" (Viggo) and a whole lot of unknowns.

Didn't seem to hurt that movie any.

maestrowork

05-26-2010, 09:45 PM

BenPanced

05-26-2010, 09:50 PM

Still: it's a major Hollywood blockbuster with major exposure.

Cyia

05-26-2010, 09:56 PM

We are talking about an action movie based on a video game... Suddenly I feel like I shouldn't take it so seriously.

But anyway. How about the Rock? At least he's half Samoan and he's naturally dark enough to pass as Persian, and he doesn't have to put on 15 pounds to play that role... (I can feel all the thrown tomatoes now...)

NO!

The previews already look enough like The Scorpion King without that!

NO!

Kitty27

05-26-2010, 09:58 PM

We are talking about an action movie based on a video game... Suddenly I feel like I shouldn't take it so seriously.

But anyway. How about the Rock? At least he's half Samoan and he's naturally dark enough to pass as Persian, and he doesn't have to put on 15 pounds to play that role... (I can feel all the thrown tomatoes now...)

Hmmmm.

If he displayed massive amounts of nudity,I would so be there.

BUT he's not Middle Eastern and mad lust cannot win the day.

I go with your choice of Naveen Andrews.

Wavy_Blue

05-26-2010, 10:01 PM

Naveen Andrews would have been perfect.

Lady Ice

05-26-2010, 10:08 PM

They should have made more of an attempt to find a non-white actor.

Cyia

05-26-2010, 10:09 PM

Jersey Chick

05-26-2010, 10:09 PM

Oded Fehr is NOT too old... well, okay. Maybe he is, but who cares? Yum. :)

Kitty27

05-26-2010, 10:15 PM

Oded Fehr is NOT too old... well, okay. Maybe he is, but who cares? Yum. :)

Amen.

Crazed Oded Fehr fangirls unite!

Kitty27

05-26-2010, 10:20 PM

Ha! Finally remember the name of the guy I was looking for. (Okay, so he's not Persian. I thought he was half Middle Eastern, but the profile says he's Hawaiian/Native American/Irish, but he certainly looks more the part than Jake G.) And he can definitely do action scenes!

Jason Momoa:

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg274/ErisFury/Jason-Momoa.jpg

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg274/ErisFury/jasonmomoa.jpg

*Restrains self from mad lust and glares at Cyia for bringing such distracting hotness*

Ahem.

We must stick to proper casting here.

I choose this gentleman:
Hani Salama

http://i604.photobucket.com/albums/tt122/Kitty27_Album/HanySalama_13.jpg

Cranky

05-26-2010, 10:22 PM

Oded Fehr is NOT too old... well, okay. Maybe he is, but who cares? Yum. :)

Too old? TOO OLD? *weeps* He's only 39.

Okay, I know, that's not the point. But I've never played the game so I have no idea how old the Prince of Persia is supposed to be, anyway.

Jersey Chick

05-26-2010, 10:23 PM

Me, neither.

Oded's not too old for me - but I'm getting the feeling 39 is too old for this movie role. I think.

aruna

05-26-2010, 10:28 PM

OT:
for all those ladies who repped me for Hrithik Roshan, a special treat. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOP-z4N2nOk&playnext_from=TL&videos=VIHVo_0JuxY)Note minute 1:58, sword fighting...

Jcomp

05-26-2010, 10:39 PM

Oded Fehr actually could have been perfect. Star power / name recognition might be lacking, but he'd be instantly recognizable to many genre film fans as one of the stars / best parts of The Mummy, another summer blockbuster set largely in sandy dessert environments.

BenPanced

05-26-2010, 10:46 PM

Amen.

Crazed Oded Fehr fangirls unite!
And fanboys!

*squeals like the 16-year-old girl he really is*

Wicked

05-26-2010, 10:47 PM

Ahem.

We must stick to proper casting here.

I choose this gentleman:
Hani Salama

http://i604.photobucket.com/albums/tt122/Kitty27_Album/HanySalama_13.jpg

Seconds that choice. :D
Though I would be equally happy with Ardeth, age be damned.

Just for reference sake, here is the cover of one of the Prince of Persia games.

http://media.photobucket.com/image/prince%20of%20persia/partietime/princeofpersiaforgottensands.jpg?o=10

IdiotsRUs

05-26-2010, 11:26 PM

set in sandy dessert environments.

Banoffee pie? Oooh naked toffee fight!

maestrowork

05-26-2010, 11:41 PM

I think J just had a Freudian slip.

Hey how about RDJ? Seems like he can do no wrong anyway. Too white? I don't think anyone would object....

/sarcasm

IdiotsRUs

05-26-2010, 11:44 PM

So no naked toffee fight among the banoffee pie?

OooooOOOOOooooooooh Ray, you spoilsport! *sulks*

maestrowork

05-26-2010, 11:57 PM

This is Persian after all... the best I can up with is Turkish Delights...

Jcomp

05-27-2010, 12:11 AM

Banoffee pie? Oooh naked toffee fight!

Ha. Dammit. I must've had Pecan Sandies on the brain or something.

vnNichols

05-27-2010, 12:53 AM

I wonder how hard it was for them to find Middle Eastern bad guys and red shirts? I'm guessing--not very.

Characters that had names:

Jake Gyllenhaal ... Dastan
Gemma Arterton ... Tamina
Ben Kingsley ... Nizam
Alfred Molina ... Sheik Amar
Steve Toussaint ... Seso
Toby Kebbell ... Garsiv
Richard Coyle ... Tus
Ronald Pickup ... King Sharaman
Reece Ritchie ... Bis

But, when we hit the nameless characters:

Gísli Örn Garðarsson ... Hassansin Leader
Claudio Pacifico ... Hassansin Porcupine
Domonkos Pardanyi ... Hassansin Double-Bladed Halberd
Massimilano Ubaldi ... Hassansin Long Razor
Vladimir 'Furdo' Furdik ... Hassansin Grenade Man (as Furdik Vladimir)
Selva Rasalingam ... Persian Captain
Daud Shah ... Asoka
Rohan Siva ... Bloodied Alamut Soldier
Dimitri Andreas ... Head Servant
Rachid Abbad ... Rafa
Farzana Dua Elahe ... Tamina's Maid Servant
Aziz El Kibachi ... Mughal Sultan
Felix Augusto Quadros ... Spy
Amin Mohammad Fouladi ... Musician
Masoud Abbasi ... Musician
Mehrdad Azmin ... Musician
Zartosht Safari ... Musician
Ali Nourbakhsh ... Musician
Parham Bahadoran ... Musician
Ehsan Parvizian ... Musician
Shohreh Shojaeifard ... Musician
Babak Babakinejad ... Musician

That's from imdb.

vnNichols

05-27-2010, 12:54 AM

And, to whoever mentioned brAngelina? She's had this problem before, too.

This is her as Mariane Pearl
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/106/266095229_d9820697fd.jpg

robeiae

05-27-2010, 02:29 AM

The Prince of Persia had a production budget of $150 million dollars. And it's about a video game. Given those two tidbits, I think the film's producers are entitled to cast whomever they desire for any part. And I don't see any real strong arguments as to why they shouldn't. I mean, it's not like "historical accuracy" is the goal, here. The goal is to make money, and that's pretty much it. Of course in that light, maybe they would have fared better with Will Smith in the lead...

That said, it's certainly fair and appropriate--imo--to question casting decisions of this type when a film is supposedly dealing with reality and/or history. But this is--imo--the wrong film for such questioning.

vnNichols

05-27-2010, 02:34 AM

robeiae

05-27-2010, 02:38 AM

Well historically, this (http://www.uncp.edu/home/rwb/persian_empire_map.gif) is the Persian Empire at its height.

So, what does a Persian prince look like? ;)

BenPanced

05-27-2010, 04:13 AM

ChaosTitan

05-27-2010, 04:21 AM

Okay... :ROFL: From a review that you can find here (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100526/ap_en_re/us_film_review_prince_of_persia), I give you this:

He's on the run, having been framed for the murder of his father, King Sharaman (Ronald Pickup), the man who found in him the streets as an orphan boy and raised him alongside his own biological sons, Tus (Richard Coyle) and Garsiv (Toby Kebbell).

Anyone know if the orphan thing is part of the game lore, or did they make this up so they could cast Jake? :tongue

Apparently the movie is pretty forgettable, too.

Mac H.

05-27-2010, 04:45 AM

This BS about Hollywood not casting unknowns in big budget films is a lie.They do it all the time.In fact, its a very good strategy.

In a small film like a rom-com, you often need a known actor to get attention.

In a film like 'Titanic' , 'Superman' , 'Spiderman' ,'Avatar' etc you are relying on other factors to get attention, so casting a big name is a bit of a waste of money. (The biggest name in Titanic was Billy Zane! The two people playing the leads were successful, but certainly not stars at that point)

Logically I know I should be offended at the whitewashing ... but I just can't get emotionally involved. It's like how people are adamant that it's a scandal if Bill Gates uses a Macintosh. Of the President of 'Country X' drives a car made in 'Country Y' - or drinks orange orange juice from 'County Z'.

It's just a movie. It just a car. It's just orange juice.

Mac

Kitty27

05-27-2010, 05:04 AM

In fact, its a very good strategy.

In a small film like a rom-com, you often need a known actor to get attention.

In a film like 'Titanic' , 'Superman' , 'Spiderman' ,'Avatar' etc you are relying on other factors to get attention, so casting a big name is a bit of a waste of money. (The biggest name in Titanic was Billy Zane! The two people playing the leads were successful, but certainly not stars at that point)

Logically I know I should be offended at the whitewashing ... but I just can't get emotionally involved. It's like how people are adamant that it's a scandal if Bill Gates uses a Macintosh. Of the President of 'Country X' drives a car made in 'Country Y' - or drinks orange orange juice from 'County Z'.

It's just a movie. It just a car. It's just orange juice.

Mac

Not to me. I don't like the practice of whitewashing for obvious reasons.

From Angelina Jolie as Marianne Pearl,Taylor Lautner as Jacob Black,the Last Airbender fiasco and now this mess with POP,it shows a continued practice of NOT giving minority actors a chance at roles.

It gets even more insulting when it is clearly a role that calls for a person of color.

Someone said it earlier,I believe it was Cyia,that LOTR was a big budget movie and they cast no big names in that movie. In other words,they gave them a chance. What was so hard about giving a Middle Eastern actor a chance?

robeiae

05-27-2010, 05:26 AM

The screenshots and cover art for the video games I've been able to find online made more of an effort to make the main character look more of what I'd expect a person from Persia to look like. :Shrug:
Well, here is Darius I: http://www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/Images2/Achaemenid/Bistun/Darius_the_Great_Bistun01_small.jpg

Here is Xerxes: http://www.awesomestories.com/images/user/6b319277da.jpg

Here is the original Prince of Persia game: http://www.edge-online.com/files/Prince%20of%20Persia%20Original%20d.jpg

And here is Xerxes from 300 (played by Brazillian Rodrigo Santoro): http://www.artsjournal.com/popcorn/300-Xerxes.jpg

Meh.

Again, I get the argument--to an extent--when the film is about reality. But a video game-inspired movie? Should we also be outraged that real mutants weren't used (with the exception of Rebecca Romijn) for the X-Men movies?

ChaosTitan

05-27-2010, 05:27 AM

Someone said it earlier,I believe it was Cyia,that LOTR was a big budget movie and they cast no big names in that movie. In other words,they gave them a chance. What was so hard about giving a Middle Eastern actor a chance?

The major flaw in the LOTR argument is that those movies had a huge, built-in audience. Millions of people know those books and would have watched the movies regardless of Peter Jackson casting all unknowns or all marquee stars.

PoP isn't LOTR. Sure, people who know the video game might go see it. But Disney/Jerry Bruckheimer (the dude who brought us Armageddon and all that realism) is banking on appealing to a wider audience by using a recognizable actor and lots of action sequences. They can't afford to have a $150million movie fail.

It sucks, but there it is.

Cyia

05-27-2010, 05:29 AM

Should we also be outraged that real mutants weren't used (with the exception of Rebecca Romijn) for the X-Men movies?

I'm not easily offended, and I'm about as pale a white girl as you're going to find, but this is a horrible statement.

Mutants as shown in the X-men universe AREN'T REAL. People of color are. Comparing them as though two groups of equal stature is ridiculous.

:Soapbox:

Kitty27

05-27-2010, 05:30 AM

The major flaw in the LOTR argument is that those movies had a huge, built-in audience. Millions of people know those books and would have watched the movies regardless of Peter Jackson casting all unknowns or all marquee stars.

PoP isn't LOTR. Sure, people who know the video game might go see it. But Disney/Jerry Bruckheimer (the dude who brought us Armageddon and all that realism) is banking on appealing to a wider audience by using a recognizable actor and lots of action sequences. They can't afford to have a $150million movie fail.

It sucks, but there it is.

I get what you're saying. But like you said,it still sucks.

I wish a studio would just give it a try one day. The results might surprise them.

If that ever happens and mega money gets made,it'll change things. Hollywood loves a dollar. But then again,it might not. Tyler Perry's success hasn't had much of an impact.

Kitty27

05-27-2010, 05:34 AM

Well, here is Darius I: http://www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/Images2/Achaemenid/Bistun/Darius_the_Great_Bistun01_small.jpg

Here is Xerxes: http://www.awesomestories.com/images/user/6b319277da.jpg

Here is the original Prince of Persia game: http://www.edge-online.com/files/Prince%20of%20Persia%20Original%20d.jpg

And here is Xerxes from 300 (played by Brazillian Rodrigo Santoro): http://www.artsjournal.com/popcorn/300-Xerxes.jpg

Meh.

Again, I get the argument--to an extent--when the film is about reality. But a video game-inspired movie? Should we also be outraged that real mutants weren't used (with the exception of Rebecca Romijn) for the X-Men movies?

Let's keep it 100 here. POC aren't mutants and cannot be compared to anything like that. Doing so isn't a good look,sir. Jaysus take the wheel.

The title says Prince Of Persia. A real place with real folks living there. Yes,it's a video game. With a title character who is Middle Eastern.

Now when casting said character, a Middle Eastern actor should have been given a shot.

robeiae

05-27-2010, 05:38 AM

I'm not easily offended, and I'm about as pale a white girl as you're going to find, but this is a horrible statement.

Mutants as shown in the X-men universe AREN'T REAL. People of color are. Comparing them as though two groups of equal stature is ridiculous.

:Soapbox:The Universe of The Prince of Persia ISN'T REAL. Neither is the Universe of the LOTR.

But for those that need it to exist within the reality of historical Persia, I'll ask again: what does such a person look like, as a matter of course? Persia was a huge empire. I would humbly suggest that being a "Persian" was much less about appearance then than being a "whatever" is, today. The same was true for Romans. And Egyptians, really.

So either way--the faux reality of a video game or the historical reality of the Persian Empire--I can't see the issue, here. Sorry, I just can't.

Again, there are many situations where I would agree with these kinds of complaints. But this isn't one of them, in my view.

maestrowork

05-27-2010, 06:03 AM

Rob, we can argue about if Jake Gyllenhaal is well cast despite his race, etc. for THIS movie, whether since it's a video game blockbuster we shouldn't really be too serious about it. Or that perhaps the character is Caucasian after all! What did a Roman in the Roman Empire look like...

But that's not really what the OP was bitching about. The OP basically said, "who cares? Hollywood has been casting white actors in racial minority roles anyway. Who gives a shit, and if you do, you're stupid."

robeiae

05-27-2010, 06:19 AM

But that's not really what the OP was bitching about. The OP basically said, "who cares? Hollywood has been casting white actors in racial minority roles anyway. Who gives a shit, and if you do, you're stupid."
The OP went over the line, imo. As I've said, there are certainly situations where Hollywood doesn't cast minorities when they easily could and should.

But if someone wants to argue that the casting here was wrong, that a "Persian" should have been cast, they're gonna need to demonstrate what actually qualifies as a Persian, with regard to the period when this movie takes place. And even then, I think it's a "meh" moment, since the movie makes no claims to be historically accurate, and it's not actually based in reality, regardless.

The movie was made only because the game has been insanely popular and people saw dollar signs. I have no reason to expect that any decision made--with regard to this movie--would be driven by anything else.

Now all that said, there's no reason why any actor shouldn't be able to compete for this role. I don't know who the producers looked at and why they went with what they did. You might. And certainly, there 's always the possibility of asinine-type thinking like "well, we don't want to risk casting a minority." But on it's face, I don't see anything here, simply because a "real Persian" wasn't cast in the lead.

joeyc

05-27-2010, 06:37 AM

If it helps, all of the voice actors for the modern Prince of Persia games have been American/British.

So, yeah.

IdiotsRUs

05-27-2010, 05:15 PM

Again, I get the argument--to an extent--when the film is about reality. But a video game-inspired movie? Should we also be outraged that real mutants weren't used (with the exception of Rebecca Romijn) for the X-Men movies?

So, in The Mummy, if Oded's tribesman had been played by a pale blue-eyed blond, would it have looked stupid? Yes.

If in Outlander, the Viking Rothgar hadn't been played by John Hurt but by Morgan Freeman, would it have looked stupid? Yes.

The source material is, well, immaterial. It's a film with fantasy elements but based in a real place that actually exists. They could at least make an effort to cast someone who looks like they might actually be Perisan, because this looks stoopid especially when they had so much choice.

trocadero

05-27-2010, 06:14 PM

Persia/Iran is an ethnically diverse part of the world. It's been on a major trade route for centuries. Most of its people have caucasian features along with brown skin and dark hair, similar to southern Europens and northern Africans. There are also minorities such as the Kurds (who tend to be fair-skinned and light-eyed) and Turkmens (who are of asiatic ancestry).

While I think it's ridiculous and disrespectful to try and pass off a Caucasian actor as anything else, I don't think that's what's happening in Prince of Persia. In addition to Autumnleaf's very rational post, is the important fact that POP is NOT trying to pass itself off as an accurate historical image.

It's based on a video game. The characters in the video game have British accents and the main character actually does look a bit like Jake Gyllenhaal. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7tA-6mlbNY)
The movie is a product of American video game culture. It's not trying to be authentic. Just like the local kids I've seen performing Oliver here in Hong Kong aren't trying to pass themselves off as British. The shows are still great.

And the arguments are sounding a little Pythonesque to me. Why can't an Indian, Lebanese or Jewish guy play an Iranian guy? Near enough is good enough?

I disagree with a lot of what the OP said, and I think a lot of the actors other posters have suggested are very attractive, but I don't think the casting of Jake Gyllenhaal is 'atrocious'.

JMBlackman

05-27-2010, 06:16 PM

The source material is, well, immaterial. It's a film with fantasy elements but based in a real place that actually exists. They could at least make an effort to cast someone who looks like they might actually be Perisan, because this looks stoopid especially when they had so much choice.

Thank you! Yes, it is made up. But are we really trying to say anything with any fantastical elements doesn't/shouldn't maintain ANY realism? This wasn't even something hard to do.

There aren't hundreds of people who aren't white who wouldn't die to play this role?

Sure, the Persian Empire went far and wide, but looking at a map of that area, it still seems like the majortiy of the people in that area? Probably weren't of Swedish decent with fair skin and bright, baby blue eyes. Maybe I'm looking at this wrong?

JamieFord

05-27-2010, 06:19 PM

JMBlackman

05-27-2010, 06:31 PM

It's probably worth mentioning that this sometimes happens the other way around. So far in the Iron Man movies we've seen a bit of the character named Nick Fury, who in fiction is white, but on-screen is played by Samuel L. Jackson.

You're right. That is worth mentioning. But then the problem I see there is, they change certain people to being different races because otherwise, there wouldn't be any. Which stems from a bigger, entirely different problem that I'm not sure how to even address. Comics just don't seem to have many, predominant characters of different races. I read a pretty wide range of comics and there just doesn't seem to be a large selection. And don't get me wrong, I know they are out there (I do not need a list, thank you). But I read everything from X-MEN to Hack/Slash to Doktor Sleepless to Girls (which is pretty interesting so far!) and people of color (I don't know why I don't like that term but it worked there) are always minor characters or background.

You know, Casey Blue is black. I think. Sorry, OT. But you know what I mean.

robeiae

05-27-2010, 06:49 PM

So, in The Mummy, if Oded's tribesman had been played by a pale blue-eyed blond, would it have looked stupid? Yes.

If in Outlander, the Viking Rothgar hadn't been played by John Hurt but by Morgan Freeman, would it have looked stupid? Yes.

The source material is, well, immaterial. It's a film with fantasy elements but based in a real place that actually exists. They could at least make an effort to cast someone who looks like they might actually be Perisan, because this looks stoopid especially when they had so much choice.
Question: was the casting of Denzel Washington as Don Pedro and Keanu Reeves as Don John in Much Ado a major problem for you? It wasn't for me.

Ultimately, I think acting ability should trump "race," but then I don't much go in for race, to begin with.

I wouldn't have a problem with the Morgan Freeman example at all, and I wouldn't say it would have looked stupid, as a matter of course.

That said, there are two caveats for me:

1) Historical accuracy--with regard to race--is important when race is important in that context. For instance, it would be beyond stupid to have switched Mathew Broderick's and Denzel Washington's roles in Glory. Race mattered in the story, so it's fair for it to matter in the casting, I think. Of course, not every film is from Hollywood. If a group in, say, upper Mongolia decided to make a film about the US Civil Rights movement, but could only draw from local talent, I wouldn't have much of a problem with it.

2) There is the greater issue of discriminatory practices. As I noted already, that's always a problem and always wrong, when it occurs.

And still, I don't see the problem with Prince of Persia, at all.

ChaosTitan

05-27-2010, 06:56 PM

Actually the Nick Fury/Samuel L Jackson argument doesn't really work here. There is precedent in the comics for this, as seen in Ultimate Nick Fury (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultimate_Nick_Fury), where the character was revamped and specifically designed with Sam J. in mind. The African-American version of Nick Fury first appeared in comics 2001.

The producers chose to go with this version of the character when they put the character in Iron Man.

IdiotsRUs

05-27-2010, 07:03 PM

Sorry to snip, but I'm ni a bit of a rush.

Question: was the casting of Denzel Washington as Don Pedro and Keanu Reeves as Don John in Much Ado a major problem for you? It wasn't for me. As I've never heard of them being cast as such and know nothing about the story or characters....

I wouldn't have a problem with the Morgan Freeman example at all, and I wouldn't say it would have looked stupid, as a matter of course.

You think a black Viking would be fine? I prefer things to a) be likely and b) make sense, but hey that's me. (If Morgan Freeman had played a Viking all I would have thought of through the movie is - how come, since everyone else is white? Where did the genes come from? And how come the other Vikings aren't noticing because you know, black Vikings were as rare as lion's feathers. Unless of course it was explained in the plot how come he's closely related to all these white guys. Which would take some explaining)

1) Historical accuracy--with regard to race--is important when race is important in that context. For instance, it would be beyond stupid to have switched Mathew Broderick's and Denzel Washington's roles in Glory. Race mattered in the story, so it's fair for it to matter in the casting, I think. Of course, not every film is from Hollywood.
It's important then and it's (to me) important when the location/ character makes it clear what ethnicity someone is. It's all part of your worldbuilding and the internal culture of your story. There's such a thing as consistency, after all, and when we write(particularly fantasy) we know consistency is key.

If you can keep internal consistency without any harm done to anything else, why don't you? Because if you don't people WILL call you on it. Same goes for films.

I'd feel the same if the Prince of Persia hopped on a motorbike to escape at any point. Breaks consistency.

If a group in, say, upper Mongolia decided to make a film about the US Civil Rights movement, but could only draw from local talent, I wouldn't have much of a problem with it.

I'd have no problem with that either. But Hollywood wasn't restricted in that way. Quite the opposite.

And still, I don't see the problem with Prince of Persia, at all.

In that case shall we agree to disagree?

Rhoda Nightingale

05-27-2010, 07:06 PM

I have only two things to add to this discussion:

1) Please stop saying that only films based in reality ought to quibble over silly things like realism and historical accuracy. That's insulting to every fantasy/sci-fi/paranormal writer in the room. And I'd like to think that every one of us, if--god willing--one of our stories got picked up for a movie adaptation, we'd raise a stink if something like the race or gender of a character was changed.

2) Yes, acting ability trumps all, but look at the film that's up for discussion. Is it really going to require a massive amount of quality acting? I don't think so.

maestrowork

05-27-2010, 07:07 PM

But if someone wants to argue that the casting here was wrong, that a "Persian" should have been cast, they're gonna need to demonstrate what actually qualifies as a Persian, with regard to the period when this movie takes place. And even then, I think it's a "meh" moment, since the movie makes no claims to be historically accurate, and it's not actually based in reality, regardless.

I don't think anyone says "real Persian." Oded, for example, is Israeli. I think people are saying at least an appropriate racial minority (Indian, Egyptian...) and not someone who is decidedly white. It wouldn't be right to cast Chow-Yun Fat in that role either, so why should it be okay to cast Gyllenhaal?

It may have been a video game, but it's still a MOVIE we are talking about. There is something called realism even if you're talking about a special effect video-game movie. And in the video game, the characters look middle-eastern. It's about a PERSIAN prince, not some generic "anything goes" kind of characters that can be changed (say, an all black-cast of The Carousel -- that could happen; there's nothing in the script that says they are white!) So in the movie, they just spray-tanned a white guy to pass as Persian? (the fact that they "darkened" him means they KNOW the guy isn't supposed to be white)

robeiae

05-27-2010, 07:24 PM

I don't think anyone says "real Persian." Oded, for example, is Israeli. I think people are saying at least an appropriate racial minority (Indian, Egyptian...) and not someone who is decidedly white. It wouldn't be right to cast Chow-Yun Fat in that role either, so why should it be okay to cast Gyllenhaal?I'd be fine with Chow-Yun Fat. Who says it wouldn't be right?

JimmyB27

05-27-2010, 07:42 PM

I wouldn't have a problem with it if they can say the they had a load of actors of the appropriate ethnicity audition, but none of them could act for toffee, or weren't the best fit for the role.
But I sort of suspect that's not the case here.

Cyia

05-27-2010, 08:07 PM

Question: was the casting of Denzel Washington as Don Pedro and Keanu Reeves as Don John in Much Ado a major problem for you? It wasn't for me.

It was major enough that our English Lit teacher warned us before we watched it in class. She said to pretend it was a live action play and no one else tried out, or something like that, because it was distracting.

I'd be fine with Chow-Yun Fat. Who says it wouldn't be right?

For one, he IS too old for the part. For another, anyone who can tell a Chinese man isn't Persian (which, at least in the modern usage, = Iranian)

TrickyFiction

05-27-2010, 08:19 PM

I think the biggest disappointment, for me, other than weirdness of the main characters all being caucasian, while the extras are middle-eastern, is the missed opportunity for actors who don't have the standard "Hollywood" face. I'm tired of seeing that face over and over again. More variety on the screen would be a beautiful thing, and I think it might just help to build more culturally-diverse, socially-tolerant entertainment, which will, in turn, start to push our culture in a better direction. At the very least, we need to widen our hyper-commercialized idea of beauty, and Hollywood could easily lead us in that direction.

I'm not saying it's their responsibility, as I dislike the idea that an artist is morally responsible to produce any kind of art, but this sort of institutional racism has been in the entertainment industry far too long, and this was a missed chance to start correcting it. I feel the same way about AIRBENDER. While it didn't HAVE to be asian actors (it was just a fantasy that used asian culture for its world building, after all) it missed a great chance to push Hollywood's doors open for a more diverse group of actors.

aadams73

05-27-2010, 08:20 PM

I don't know anything about Persian princes, but I think their rugs are pretty cool.

robeiae

05-27-2010, 09:15 PM

Sorry to snip, but I'm ni a bit of a rush.That's what my doctor said before my vasectomy...

As I've never heard of them being cast as such and know nothing about the story or characters....It's Shakespeare's Much Ado About Nothing, The Kenneth Branagh production. Excellent, imo.
You think a black Viking would be fine? I prefer things to a) be likely and b) make sense, but hey that's me. (If Morgan Freeman had played a Viking all I would have thought of through the movie is - how come, since everyone else is white? Where did the genes come from? And how come the other Vikings aren't noticing because you know, black Vikings were as rare as lion's feathers. Unless of course it was explained in the plot how come he's closely related to all these white guys. Which would take some explaining)So, it's all about skin color? What about height? Eye color? Hair color? General bone structure? Etc? Etc? Etc? How about sexual orientation?

I think this is an interesting thing, this overt fixation on skin color/race.

I also think it stinks.
It's important then and it's (to me) important when the location/ character makes it clear what ethnicity someone is. It's all part of your worldbuilding and the internal culture of your story. There's such a thing as consistency, after all, and when we write(particularly fantasy) we know consistency is key.Consistency is fine. But I reject the idea--outright--that an actor is limited by his skin color. Period.

If race/ethnicity is an unimportant element of a story, then I think it shouldn't matter a whit what color or race the actors are. Obviously, I'm largely on island here. And honestly, I'm disappointed with that.

robeiae

05-27-2010, 09:22 PM

It was major enough that our English Lit teacher warned us before we watched it in class. She said to pretend it was a live action play and no one else tried out, or something like that, because it was distracting.Wow. That's sad and scary, imo. "Warned" you?
For one, he IS too old for the part. For another, anyone who can tell a Chinese man isn't Persian (which, at least in the modern usage, = Iranian)Heh. Modern usage is not reflective of historical reality. If you want to have the "right" ethnicity for a character, you're gonna need to do some research into the period. And even then, the "right" ethnicity may not be available. Now, with something that intends historical accuracy, I can understand that goal. With this movie? Please.

But everyone's free to feel differently, of course.

robeiae

05-27-2010, 09:26 PM

I don't know anything about Persian princes, but I think their rugs are pretty cool.

So were some of Sean Connery's.

IdiotsRUs

05-27-2010, 09:39 PM

That's what my doctor said before my vasectomy...

It's Shakespeare's Much Ado About Nothing, The Kenneth Branagh production. Excellent, imo. k. Never read it. Never seen it.

So, it's all about skin color? What about height? Eye color? Hair color? General bone structure? Etc? Etc? Etc? How about sexual orientation?

I think this is an interesting thing, this overt fixation on skin color/race.

I also think it stinks.
Consistency is fine. But I reject the idea--outright--that an actor is limited by his skin color. Period.

You are misrepresenting my stance here. It's way more than just skin colour. No, an actor should not be limited by skin colour unless there is a reason. That reason can be historical authenticity - even in a story with fantastical elements. Just because there's an alien in Outlander does not mean Vikings were suddenly genetically different.

And as I posted earlier - I'd have the same problem if Princey boy jumped on a motorbike. Not right for the time/place in which it was set.

If race/ethnicity is an unimportant element of a story, then I think it shouldn't matter a whit what color or race the actors are. Obviously, I'm largely on island here. And honestly, I'm disappointed with that.

I'd agree that if race/ethnicity is unimportant to the story or setting, then it is irrelevant. If Prince of Persia was set in LA, they could have cast any actor they wanted. However, it's set in historical Persia. Many people look for cultural authenticity in their films and books, and why shouldn't they? This does not make it a 'fixation with skin colour' and I'm not too keen on the implication here that wishing for accuracy in fiction is somehow abhorrent.

Namatu

05-27-2010, 09:41 PM

You've all covered it pretty well. I side with Oded Fehr. (And the other handsome gentlemen offered up. Why do we have to just have one?)

Rhoda Nightingale

05-27-2010, 09:44 PM

Cyia

05-27-2010, 09:55 PM

Answer me this: Name me some roles that were given to non-Caucasian people that were originally written as white, roles that were switched because the actors were Just That Great.

Michael Clarke Duncan as Kingpen in Daredevil. I restate my belief that it was brilliant casting because NO ONE else could have touched that part and it was the only decent one in DD/should have been a major featured villain role in one of the Spider-Man movies.

Duane Johnson took the lead in the re-make of Walking Tall (but I'd argue that neither the movie nor the acting were "great" in any way.)

Morgan Freeman

Makes me think of Kiss of the Girls and how Alex Cross is the kind of character that would almost certainly been cast as a white guy/blockbuster sure money actor had James Patterson not made it abundantly clear that he was African American. (& "unputdownable" ;) )

Sean Connery in Highlander (he's supposed to Egyptian, yes, EGYPTIAN); even as a kidlet muchkin I never bought that one.

Don't forget one of the principle characters on Lost. Richard Alpert was scripted to be a black man marooned when the slave ship he was on crashed on the island.

Rhoda Nightingale

05-27-2010, 10:03 PM

^I was going to bring up Lost, but I thought we were talking strictly about movies. Another good one, though.

robeiae

05-27-2010, 10:34 PM

You are misrepresenting my stance here. It's way more than just skin colour. No, an actor should not be limited by skin colour unless there is a reason. That reason can be historical authenticity - even in a story with fantastical elements. Just because there's an alien in Outlander does not mean Vikings were suddenly genetically different.So, all Vikings must be played by actual Vikings, then? Or is just looking like a Viking sufficient?

I'd agree that if race/ethnicity is unimportant to the story or setting, then it is irrelevant. If Prince of Persia was set in LA, they could have cast any actor they wanted. However, it's set in historical Persia. Many people look for cultural authenticity in their films and books, and why shouldn't they? This does not make it a 'fixation with skin colour' and I'm not too keen on the implication here that wishing for accuracy in fiction is somehow abhorrent.1) "Historical Persia" is not homogeneous, when it comes to race. And supposing that "middle eastern" is somehow sufficient strikes me as a kind of pandering. Do you know of the film Selena? Jennifer Lopez's big breakout role? When she was cast for the part, some were outraged because she was of Puerto Rican descent, not Mexican. Where does it end? Where is the line for deciding the "appropriate" race for a given part?

2) The "accuracy" bit is a red herring, in my view. Actors are playing a role. They are not the person they are playing, by definition.

IdiotsRUs

05-27-2010, 10:44 PM

*casts Sidney Poitier and Susan Sarrenden as BD Wong's biological parents*

Yeah, Wong has Sarrenden's cheekbones and Sidney's dark eyes. No problem, that'll work. It'll look realistic, right?

Cos that line works both ways there.

No - we don't need to genetically profile actors to check they are the 'right' ethnicity. I never said we did. And yes, of course they aren't the characters *rolls eyes* I'm not completely insane you know. It helps if they can be believable both physically and acting wise. Would you cast a seven foot tall guy to play a 5ft tall chick?

robeiae

05-27-2010, 10:46 PM

Okay, robeiae. Your point is that skin color shouldn't be an issue in Hollywood or anywhere else. I can swing with that. In a perfect world, the general public wouldn't notice things like race, gender, or sexual orientation when choosing what movies to flock to, and production companies wouldn't look into those things either when casting roles. HOWEVER, we don't live in a perfect world, and the fact that people are noticing the race of a particular character in a particular role means it IS an issue. It'd be nice if everyone could overlook skin color entirely, but they don't. The fact that we're having this discussion is proof positive of that. In fact, I think it's fantastic that people are actually starting to notice and call Hollywood out on it.So if the goal is to pacify the general public to get them in the theater, then what is the right decision?

Answer me this: Name me some roles that were given to non-Caucasian people that were originally written as white, roles that were switched because the actors were Just That Great.

I can think of two off the top of my head: Morgan Freeman in The Shawshank Redemption (originally written by Stephen King as a red-haired Irishman); and Duane Jones in Night of the Living Dead (chosen by George Romero for the simple reason that he played the part better than anyone else who tried out, race notwithstanding).

Now think of the number of roles that were originally written as non-Caucasian and where given to white folks anyway.

I'll throw out a few, barring PoP and Airbender since they've been brought up already:

Elizabeth Taylor in Cleopatra; Laurence Olivier in Othello; Sean Connery in Highlander (he's supposed to Egyptian, yes, EGYPTIAN); Al Jolson in The Jazz Singer.

Are you seeing the problem here?
Yes, I see a problem in some cases. Do I need to go back and quote my own previous posts in this thread?

See, that's the problem with this kind of discussion. Everyone wants the high ground (me included).

But I'll restate: acting ability should trump skin color/ethnicity, except when skin color (really, differentiating skin color/ethnicity) is central to the storyline.

I don't see a problem in this film--for reasons I've given--and as far as I'm concerned, the Prince could just as easily be a any other race or color or ethnicity that anyone might care to name.

When another film about, say, Martin Luther King gets made and Keanu Reeves gets the part of Dr. King, I'll be right with everyone that thinks that would be outrageous and wrong.

robeiae

05-27-2010, 10:52 PM

*casts Sidney Poitier and Susan Sarrenden as BD Wong's biological parents*But see, I'm OKAY with that. What can I say?
Would you cast a seven foot tall guy to play a 5ft tall chick?I don't know. Does it matter that the character is a chick and five feet tall? Can a seven foot tall guy play the role effectively, without changing the story?

Lyra Jean

05-27-2010, 10:54 PM

I like both Naveen and Oded. Too bad they weren't cast in PoP.

IdiotsRUs

05-27-2010, 11:00 PM

But see, I'm OKAY with that. What can I say?

That I care more about the laws of genetics and / or any kind of plausibility? (although I'd buy that casting in a comedy maybe) And while you not caring is fine, me caring is not a bad thing. I am not 'skin-colour fixated' just because I like things to be realistic.

I don't know. Does it matter that the character is a chick and five feet tall? Can a seven foot tall guy play the role effectively, without changing the story?

Yes and I doubt it :D

Thing is, even if he could, it's jarring to the viewer. (Not to mention, let's face it, in most auditions an actor's looks - not only skin colour but the whole thing -are, rightly or wrongly, very important. It's part of the business. An actor who is the 'right' colour but with the wrong look just ....it makes it all harder work)And while a person's skin colour doesn't affect their acting ability or whether I like them or anything like that, if it's jarring or anachronistic to the culture presented in the film - especially with film being like, you know, a visual medium - then it will matter to people. Possibly quite a lot of people. Not you maybe, but others. And why jar people out of your story? Once that happens they start looking for plot holes....

I don't like to be jarred. It makes me spill my beer.

Cyia

05-27-2010, 11:02 PM

And while a person's skin colour doesn't affect their acting ability or whether I like them or anything like that, if it's jarring or anachronistic to the culture presented in the film - especially with film being like, you know, a visual medium - then it will matter to people. Possibly quite a lot of people. Not you maybe, but others. And why jar people out of your story? Once that happens they start looking for plot holes....

I don't like to be jarred. It makes me spill my beer.

*pictures Angelina Jolie as the lead in The Life of Harriet Tubman*

IdiotsRUs

05-27-2010, 11:09 PM

*pictures Chris Rock playing Hitler*

Cyia

05-27-2010, 11:13 PM

George Lopez as Henry VIII

aruna

05-27-2010, 11:29 PM

If race/ethnicity is an unimportant element of a story, then I think it shouldn't matter a whit what color or race the actors are. Obviously, I'm largely on island here. And honestly, I'm disappointed with that.

It matters in that people of different races DO look different, that it is natural to notice those differences, and I don't see why we should pretend we don't; and I don't see why on earth we should keep up that pretence in movies.

I'll give you an example. The Mahabharata is an ancient Indian epic, filmed many times. Recently I watched the first part of a two-part adaptation. It was a very very modern adaptation, in that it really didn't matter what races the protagonists were. There were white, Indian, Chinese, Black, everything under the sun. Now, all were excellent actors. But it simply looked wrong to see, for instance, a jet black actor playing the major role of Bhishma. We know the figure Bhishma was Indian. True, his race isn't important for the story but we know what it's supposed to be. Why change things?

HOWEVER, we don't live in a perfect world, and the fact that people are noticing the race of a particular character in a particular role means it IS an issue. (snip) It'd be nice if everyone could overlook skin color entirely, but they don't. The fact that we're having this discussion is proof positive of that. In fact, I think it's fantastic that people are actually starting to notice and call Hollywood out on it.

Actually, I don't think that would be a perfect world. We notice what a person looks like just as we notice what sex they are. Why shouldn't we? What's wrong with noticing?
The problem only starts when one ethnicity is preferred over another in a situation where it really doesn't make sense.
In cases like Morgan Freeman in Shawshank Redemption race didn't matter because it was a US prison and there are plenty of blacks in that setting. It made sense. Casting black or white of Chinese actors in a Bollywood movie -- say as the lead actor or actress -- would make absolute no sense and be thoroughly jarring. That would not be a perfect world; it would just be a pretence. Equality does not mean that differences have to be erased out. It's those differences that make humanity so very fascinating!

CaroGirl

05-27-2010, 11:35 PM

I haven't kept up with this whole thread, so forgive me if it's been mentioned, but: Linda Hunt as Billy Kwan.

Good acting can trump fitting "type" for a role.

robeiae

05-28-2010, 01:09 AM

That I care more about the laws of genetics and / or any kind of plausibility? (although I'd buy that casting in a comedy maybe) And while you not caring is fine, me caring is not a bad thing. I am not 'skin-colour fixated' just because I like things to be realistic.Plausibility in what sense?

Remember, I've agreed--multiple times--that there are situations where it's certainly appropriate and fair to criticize casting choices.

Laws of genetics? Gimme a break. That's nonsense. There are no laws of genetics being discussed, here. There are just conclusions about appearance, nothing more.

Again, actors play at being another person. If they are good at what they do, I see no reason why there should limits, in almost all cases. There are--again--quite obviously situations where these things do matter.
Yes and I doubt it :D

Thing is, even if he could, it's jarring to the viewer. (Not to mention, let's face it, in most auditions an actor's looks - not only skin colour but the whole thing -are, rightly or wrongly, very important. It's part of the business. An actor who is the 'right' colour but with the wrong look just ....it makes it all harder work)And while a person's skin colour doesn't affect their acting ability or whether I like them or anything like that, if it's jarring or anachronistic to the culture presented in the film - especially with film being like, you know, a visual medium - then it will matter to people. Possibly quite a lot of people. Not you maybe, but others. And why jar people out of your story? Once that happens they start looking for plot holes....You're assuming--I think--that the viewer knows the story already. Samuel Jackson is Nick Fury--as noted upthread--and that's inconsistent with the comic books, with regard to race. So what?

I know--again--that I'm on an island on this, but when I see Jackson in that role, I don't say to myself "oh look, a black Nick Fury...I guess that works." I. Don't. Care. what color the man is.

Regardless, you asked if a seven foot tall man could be cast in a role that was--I guess--written to be a five foot tall woman. And I don't see why not, if being female and five feet tall is not central to the story. Then, the character just becomes a seven foot tall man. That's the link you're not getting. Could a black man play a role that was written as a white man? Again, if race is not central to the story, sure. Why not?

Are we really so lacking in our imaginations that we cannot fathom an actor a playing such a role? Really?

If you say "well, it might be easier if there were some similar charcteristics between the actor and the character being played," I'd agree. But why is race such an overriding one?

Do you think Aaahnuld was well cast as Conan? He looks the part, right? Well, expect that Conan--in the books--was a hulking giant of a man, not the puny 6'2" that is the Governator. Come on, 6'7" is needed, minimum!

Of course, that's kind of silly complaint. Plus, with the magic of Hollywood, height can be easily added. We all KNOW that.

But inconsistency in height is okay, as a matter of course? As is manipulation of camera angles, maybe? While inconsistency in race it an absolute no-no.

That's what I'm hearing in this thread. So, I do think people are fixated on skin color, for whatever reason.

My orginal point was rather simple: the Prince of Persia movie is about making money and is based on a video game. Given this, getting upset because the lead isn't being played by the proper ethnicity seems silly to me.

Cyia

05-28-2010, 01:17 AM

Regardless, you asked if a seven foot tall man could be cast in a role that was--I guess--written to be a five foot tall woman. And I don't see why not, if being female and five feet tall is not central to the story. Then, the character just becomes a seven foot tall man.

There are physical limitations to being 5' tall and 7' tall. Those limitations aren't the same. A role written for a 5'tall woman is going to be based in the assumptions and capabilities of a 5' tall woman - a certain build, weight, etc. A 5' tall woman can be light enough and small enough to fit into something made for a child or even pass for one. A 7' tall man, can't.

Likewise someone who is 7' tall can top a Christmas tree without a stool, or change a lightbulb, or smash his head on the hydraulic closure of office doors. None of those scenarios work for a 5'tall woman.

Characterization is a vital component to any story. The story is crafted around the character to a certain extent. You can have a man and woman of equal skill in sword fighting, but if there's a gag built into the story that you've got a woman passing herself off as a man, then you can't cast a man in that role even though he's got the skill.

You also have to consider what each actor's size will do to the rest of the cast. You don't want a 6'3 "friend" of a 5'9 actor.

robeiae

05-28-2010, 01:27 AM

There are physical limitations to being 5' tall and 7' tall. Those limitations aren't the same. A role written for a 5'tall woman is going to be based in the assumptions and capabilities of a 5' tall woman - a certain build, weight, etc. A 5' tall woman can be light enough and small enough to fit into something made for a child or even pass for one. A 7' tall man, can't.

Likewise someone who is 7' tall can top a Christmas tree without a stool, or change a lightbulb, or smash his head on the hydraulic closure of office doors. None of those scenarios work for a 5'tall woman.

Characterization is a vital component to any story. The story is crafted around the character to a certain extent. You can have a man and woman of equal skill in sword fighting, but if there's a gag built into the story that you've got a woman passing herself off as a man, then you can't cast a man in that role even though he's got the skill.

You also have to consider what each actor's size will do to the rest of the cast. You don't want a 6'3 "friend" of a 5'9 actor.
Reread what I said, please:

"Regardless, you asked if a seven foot tall man could be cast in a role that was--I guess--written to be a five foot tall woman. And I don't see why not, if being female and five feet tall is not central to the story. Then, the character just becomes a seven foot tall man." [my boldface]

And you're ignoring the reality of height manipulation in film, regardless. Ever seen Wesley Snipes in person? Sylvester Stallone? Tom Cruise? They're all below average height, yet somehow all three manage to not be looking up to the vast majority of characters in their films and are often--on film--taller than people they are not tall than. Coincidence?

Cyia

05-28-2010, 01:36 AM

Reread what I said, please:

"Regardless, you asked if a seven foot tall man could be cast in a role that was--I guess--written to be a five foot tall woman. And I don't see why not, if being female and five feet tall is not central to the story. Then, the character just becomes a seven foot tall man." [my boldface]

I know what you said. I'm not talking about something integral to the story, I'm talking about something integral to the character.

If you were to cast a 7' tall man in a role written for a 5' tall woman, it would take a serious rewrite, no matter how much the story relies on them. Every scene they're in changes if they don't say a word.

A guy who has a 5' tall female friend acts one way. The same guy out with a 7' tall man, acts another. The people around them act differently.

If a 5'tall woman makes you angry, you'll likely have a different response than you would if it was a 7' tall man.

robeiae

05-28-2010, 02:49 AM

I know what you said. I'm not talking about something integral to the story, I'm talking about something integral to the character.

If you were to cast a 7' tall man in a role written for a 5' tall woman, it would take a serious rewrite, no matter how much the story relies on them.It may or it may not. You can't make the generalization that it would, no matter what. Suppose the character in question was a bus driver that never got out of their seat?

And how about 5' v. 6'? 5'6" v. 5'10"? 5'7" v. 5'8"?

trocadero

05-28-2010, 03:39 AM

aruna

05-28-2010, 01:12 PM

I suppose if the filmmaker is trying to make an artistic and clever statement that Race Does Not Exist or We Are All One or If You Can See Race then You're Not as Progressive as You Think then it really doesn't matter -- he or she can, in fact is obliged to, cast anyone as anything, so that people can have long intellectual discussions about the above topics.

But if you want to create a realistic story that draws the viewer in -- then no. The actor should look like the character he or she is depicting so as to be faithful to real life.

robeiae

05-28-2010, 03:46 PM

The actor should look like the character he or she is depicting so as to be faithful to real life.Make-up can do that, no? And platform shoes.

But I disagree. The actor should seem like the character. Looking like the character doesn't always do it and an exact double may be a poorer imitation than someone with the mannerisms, attitude, and the like of a character.

aruna

05-28-2010, 03:52 PM

Make-up can do that, no?

.

Why go to the trouble?
The only point I can see is the belief that minority actors can't or shouldn't act.
Or do they make dark people light with make-up?

robeiae

05-28-2010, 04:39 PM

Why go to the trouble?
The only point I can see is the belief that minority actors can't or shouldn't act.Really? Because make-up isn't only used that way. It's also used to make actors look older or younger. To make actors look more attractive or less attractive.

And I'm sorry, but acting skill changes. I mentioned Conan upthread. There's no question that Schwarzenegger looks like the character. And luckily, he only needed the emotional range of a rock to play the part. And it was an action film. So, he pulled it off I guess.

Now, consider Max von Sydow in Flash Gordon. Ho LOOKED exactly like Ming. But he also ACTED exactly like Ming. That makes him better than Aaaahnuld, as an actor, imo.

Now how about George C. Scott as Patton. He's not even close to looking like Patton as the above two look like the characters they played. From what I understand, he doesn't sound much like Patton, either, since Patton had a high-pitched voice and Scott's is deeper. Yet, his portrayal of Patton is considered to be one of the all time greats.

Then there's Samuel Jackson as Nick Fury, mentioned upthread. There was an earlier movie about Nick Fury, starring David Hasselhoff. No contest, in my view. Jackson is much more like the charcter than Hasselhoff could hope to be.
Or do they make dark people light with make-up?It's not always about that. But I think that using white actors to play all roles is wrong and obviously discriminatory. And I think--for minor roles--it's sill to change something like skin color for make-up. So, doing so is also wrong. And intentionally casting a white actor for a role that really requires a specific ethnicity is wrong, as well.

aruna

05-28-2010, 05:14 PM

I haven't seen any of the movies you mention, nor most of the other ones mentioned in this thread except Gandhi and the one about Daniel Pearl, so I can't tell. I don't watch action films or science fiction; I haven't even seen Star Wars! So I can't talk except in a general sense.

Shakesbear

05-28-2010, 05:38 PM

I adored Denzel Washington in Much Ado About Nothing.
Angel Coulby plays Guinevere in BBC’s Merlin. Chinese actors also pop up in this show.
David Oyelowo played Henry vii for the RSS.
Adrian Lester’s Hamlet is one of the most famous and respected of all interpretations of the lead role.
On the other side of the Atlantic it's accepted. And Brit Idris Elba is playing Norse god Heimdall in Kenneth Brannagh’s Thor, currently being filmed in the US.
Why can’t they?

I have a problem with the casting of David Oyelowo as Henry VIII - if he can play a white English king why can't white actors play Othello?

Laurence Olivier as Othello was originally staged at the Old Vic Theatre, London in 1964. Olivier made his entrance from centre back stage. He always got a round of applause as he walked on stage. One performance, after the applause died down the following was heard "Cheeeee.... I didn't know Olivier was black!"

IdiotsRUs

05-28-2010, 08:21 PM

Plausibility in what sense? In the definition of plausible. Ie it at least looks like it could be true.

Laws of genetics? Gimme a break. That's nonsense. There are no laws of genetics being discussed, here. There are just conclusions about appearance, nothing more.

*sigh* I was obviously referring to my example - Sidney Poitier and Susan Sarrenden having a biological child. The laws of genetics make it, well nothing is impossible, but let's say the chances of them having a child that looked anything like BD Wong are billions or more to one. Which makes the casting implausible - and therefore jarring. And to me, stupid.

Like I said, if you don't care about anything in fiction being at least somewhat plausible, that's fine. That I do care does not make me a bad person, 'skin-colour fixated' or anything other than a person who thinks fiction should have at least a nodding acquaintance with reality - even when it's fantasy(if it's set on this world anyway).

*bigger sigh*

robeiae

05-28-2010, 08:38 PM

There's no bad person-good person, here. I just think we put too much stock in race/skin color/ethnicity as being the defining element of a person. I've got no problem with anyone of any race or what not playing almost any role. If it's so critical that people must match the race of a character, it seems to me that only Northern Europeans would ever be allowed to perform in works from Shakespeare--to take one example--and I see that as fundamentally unfair.

IdiotsRUs

05-28-2010, 08:58 PM

There's no bad person-good person, here.

You kinda implied it earlier...

I just think we put too much stock in race/skin color/ethnicity as being the defining element of a person. I've got no problem with anyone of any race or what not playing almost any role. If it's so critical that people must match the race of a character, it seems to me that only Northern Europeans would ever be allowed to perform in works from Shakespeare--to take one example--and I see that as fundamentally unfair.

Um, Shakespeare has other ethnicities in. Not many I'll grant...If it was a re imagining (like West Side Story) fine. If you move the whole shebang to somewhere else, fine But if the version you're filming is obviously set in Italy....

I realise you see it as unfair, but you seem to be failing to see that I, for instance, see it as fundamentally unfair to non white actors that they get the bits parts while a white guy gets the lead. Again.

I name, yeah, if the acting was so damn good awesomesauce...But this is Jake Gylenhall we're talking about.

robeiae

05-28-2010, 09:52 PM

I realise you see it as unfair, but you seem to be failing to see that I, for instance, see it as fundamentally unfair to non white actors that they get the bits parts while a white guy gets the lead. Again.No, I see that. And I think it can absolutely be a fair complaint. People have given good examples of such. And it's consistent with what I'm saying, really. The difference is with regard to the extent that racial characteristics matter, when it comes to casting. Again, I think they only matter when such are integral to the the story/film and there is very clear need to differentiate characters in the story/film. I don't see the Prince of Persia as fitting that, at all. Nor do I see something like Romeo and Juliet fitting it. So, I can accept a "non-Persian" Prince, just as easily as I could accept, say, an Asian Romeo.

No one has brought up Kung Fu. There's a fine example--imo--where race was important to the story and where there was a suitable choice--imo--to play the role, a choice that was Asian: Bruce Lee.

IdiotsRUs

05-29-2010, 03:01 AM

Cyia

05-29-2010, 03:05 AM

:deadhorse

:e2photo::e2shower: <---- no real reason. I just always wanted to post these two and never had an excuse.

IdiotsRUs

05-29-2010, 03:09 AM

Where is my smiley showing the USS Enterprise vaporising someone? Ack! It's lost! *sob*

robeiae

05-29-2010, 03:10 AM

I was avoiding coming back into this thread for the sake of my sanity....

I think our only real difference here is that I think it's not just story that's important - so is setting, to many people (especially fantasy fans). And yes, setting includes what people look like on some occasions. Because setting IS part of the story, and doubly so in a fantasy.

I would totally accept that if it was set in Asia or in some setting where an Asian person wouldn't make me think 'How in heck did he get there?', such as fifth century Britain.
No, our difference is that when I see an actor playing, say, Romeo, I don't much care what his race is. It's unimportant to me. I accept that he's an actor playing a role, specifically a 16th century Italian in love with another 16th century Italian. I don't need him to be a REAL Italian, at all.

As I've said, I accept that I'm pretty much alone, here. That's fine.

kristin724

05-30-2010, 08:52 PM

I'd have to think more on the racial issue at hand, but what struck me more about Prince of Persia was the dang trailer. How is it possible to show all the people, the action, the effects, the scope, scale, and supposed allure with a booming score and volume without actually ever revealing anything remotely related to what the fing plot of the dang movie might be?

Should we even care if the casting is appropriate iIf they are trying so hard to put the visuals before the substance and hide what the storyline is-I'm assuming it has to have one ;0) All these strikes just confirm my notion not to bother-just like Robin Hood's claim to fame is that its just like Gladiator. Not the way to impress me.

katiemac

05-30-2010, 10:42 PM

If you were to cast a 7' tall man in a role written for a 5' tall woman, it would take a serious rewrite, no matter how much the story relies on them. Every scene they're in changes if they don't say a word.

Those interested in this thread may want to check out SALT when it opens later this year. It stars Angelina Jolie, but was originally written for a male lead. Tom Cruise was the first attached.

So not only is Angelina a woman... she's also taller than Cruise. ;)

maestrowork

05-30-2010, 10:59 PM

Ripley in Alien was written for a man.

Roles are rewritten to fit the actors all the time. There are times when it actually works wonderfully when the casting directors "think out of the box." In my experience (as an actor), I see more and more "any ethnicity" on casting sheets now than in the past 10 years, even though the characters are still named and with vaguely "white" descriptions (e.g. John O'Mally, 30s, military officer and well-built, any ethnicity). I was just cast in an industrial where my character's name is Tyler Connors. !

When the details (such as height, weight, gender, race, etc.) don't really matter that much, it's an easy adjustment. Ripley could very easily be a black woman, even though it was originally written for as a white man. However, if you're casting an actor as the King of Siam, I don't really think putting Mickey Rooner there with slant-eye makeup is going to work... at least not in 2010.

This whole debate stems from the fact that it's about a Prince of Persia, and not just some racially-generic character. What complicates this is that it's truly a fantasy, based on a video game, and there's certainly ambiguity about this character.

It is different than, say, imaging Romeo & Juliet with a racially-mixed or all Asian cast. In that case, the director/producer clearly is making a casting choice that says something; also, in that case, it's assumed that the actual ethnic or racial backgrounds of the characters are not an important factor. They did a production of Cinderella where the Prince was Asian and Cinderella was black (and her parents were white). No problem, since the story wasn't called "Cinderella of Persia."

maestrowork

05-30-2010, 11:03 PM

The other side of the coin is that minority actors are already struggling to find roles. They're either confined by racially specific roles or stereotypes (the middle-eastern terrorists, the Asian dry cleaner, the black gangster), or they are always edged out by white actors when being considered for an ethnically ambiguous role. So when a character is clearly Asian, black, middle-eastern, etc. and the role goes to a white actor, it's a very BITTER pill to take for a minority actor trying to find work. So, the issue goes well beyond whether the audiences care or not -- Hollywood should be more sensitive and concerned about actors equity, in addition to the bottom line (besides, it's not like Gyllenhaal is an established box office draw anyway).

maestrowork

05-30-2010, 11:09 PM

Make-up can do that, no? And platform shoes.

It depends on the genre. Eddie Murphy playing a Chinese man using makeup, etc. in a comedy? Yes. That would work, because we all know what it is about.

Mickey Rooney donning fake teeth, yellow skin and slanty-eye makeup to play a Chinaman in Breakfast at Tiffany's? No. Sorry, no amount of excuses could get them out of that one (other than "back then" in the 60s they didn't know any better).

Nicole Kidman using a nose prosthetic to play Virginia Woolf? That's fine. But Zoe Saldana using a prosthetic and white makeup to play Virginia Woolf? Not really.

EFCollins

05-31-2010, 01:10 AM

Answer me this: Name me some roles that were given to non-Caucasian people that were originally written as white, roles that were switched because the actors were Just That Great.

I can think of two off the top of my head: Morgan Freeman in The Shawshank Redemption (originally written by Stephen King as a red-haired Irishman); and Duane Jones in Night of the Living Dead (chosen by George Romero for the simple reason that he played the part better than anyone else who tried out, race notwithstanding).

To answer this:

Thor (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0800369/) (link). Idris Elba as Heimdall. A Norse God. Not that I give shit one, but it is a fact that this is a black male playing a very white male character. And the film hasn't even come out yet. So yes, it happens. Was this the best man for the role? Probably. Guy's a fan-frikkin-tastic actor. Could they have a found a historically accurate Norse-like man to play this god? Yes. Did they? Nope. Does it matter? Honestly, I don't think it does. But he got major shittage for being cast as a Norse God.

I had more, but it sounded very rantish and defensive so I highlighted and cut it out. I may keep it and do a blog post about it. But probably not. Have fun.

STKlingaman

05-31-2010, 01:41 AM

Movies are marketed to the public based on the stars drawing power.
(So when casting takes place, skin color & nationality - take a back seat
to the question - How are we going to get people in the theater to spend
$9 for a ticket and another $15-20 on garbage.)

Not the quality of: the story-line, the actors ability to act,
the directors ability to direct, etc....
(this explains the 'Tom Cruise Effect' - where if you
look nice, can smile at the camera, and preform some
of your own stunts you too can be a movie star)
unfortunately movie star does not mean actor
Hollywood is full of movie stars, but very few actors.

Truly I haven't seen a movie since 'The Matrix' that I
wanted to see again, and thought WOW.
Visually stunning, nice story, good characters.

Just saw Avatar, and while it was visually eye appealing
it was so predicable it became boring knowing what was
going to happen next.

0o0o0ps . . that turned into a mini-rant.

Cyia

05-31-2010, 02:06 AM

Those interested in this thread may want to check out SALT when it opens later this year. It stars Angelina Jolie, but was originally written for a male lead. Tom Cruise was the first attached.

Yeah, but neither one of them can act, so it's not like they had to change much.

:D

kristin724

05-31-2010, 06:25 AM

I understand how this can seriously upset people. I was a little miffed that Avatar was making all these high and mighty anti colonization statements, but all the minority cast are hidden by their mocap blue facades. What does that say, that a black actor can have any part he wishes-if his face can be drawn over. Ouch!

I seriously think this movie shouldn't have anyone's time of day. Obviously they went for the blockbuster money avenue-the trailer shows no plot points whatsoever, its based on a video game, and they cast a name white guy in a non white part. Okay! Why can't anyone ever say, you know, we're making a movie from a video game because we like the story and want to branch it out into something because we love it and want to make an honest, real to life film?