Was the 1930's Nancy Drew possibly Gay???

[thothguard51]

First I am not sure if this is in the right forum or not. I was going to put it in Erotica, but Nancy Drew is considered YA by most readers.

Anyway, from an article I found on Newflash...

http://www.flashnews.com/news/wfn04100505fn10626.html

Interesting premise, but is the writer Destiny stretching her observations. Could the ghostwriters of the franchise just have been having a little fun and getting back at their bosses?

And to think, I introduced my daughter to the Nancy Drew series.

[Don Allen]

Yes,,, me and her were young lesbians together solving closeted crimes in the thirties

[PoppysInARow]

I don't think it matters eitherway. As long as Nacy Drew is a good protagonist, who cares what the sexuality of a fictional character is?

[Shady Lane]

lol, why would you put this in erotica? because homosexuality is automatically dirty?

*sigh*

ETA: "and to think, I introduced my daughter..." yeah, christ, you really corrupted her there. ugh.

[althrasher]

No way. My moms never would have exposed me to such filth.

[Shady Lane]

:D

[Medievalist]

I dunno, but I heard Wonder Woman was, like, an Amazon!

[Shady Lane]

*snort*

[mscelina]

Oh for Pete's sake. Are you effing kidding me?

Hate to sink the homoerotic lesbian bondage theory right off the homophobic dock, but don't you think it's far more likely that this *gay* behavior is more indicative of a different societal expectation for girls' interactions with each other? That back in the big bad thirties, girls kissed each other hello? Or slept in the same bed on sleepovers? Christ, Lady Chatterley's Lover was considered obscene.

What's next? Dr. Seuss had ADD? A.A. Milne was into bestiality? Oh no--let me guess: Dumbledore is gay.

The point is that what in the hell difference does it make what the backstory of an imaginary character is or was? I sincerely doubt that the writers of Nancy Drew were having homoerotic lesbian bondage fantasies when the bad guys tied up nosy teenagers. I also seriously doubt that this "article" is anything more than a bunch of fluff designed to stir up shit.

But then again, anyone can place their own interpretations upon literature and determine their *real* meanings from a distance, usually without even reading the books. That's how all the good book burnings start.

Nancy Drew a lesbian! Quel horror--no wonder we're all so f*cked up.

Jesus. Yeah, I'd be worried about introducing my daughter to that too. It's so much more horrifying than video games with great splatter effects if you shoot someone (which is the object of the game) or last night cable television or even (gods help us!) the local news. Goodness gracious me--Nancy Drew...a lesbian?

What will the book burners think of next?

[The Kidd]

At different points Nancy shares a bed with a girl, admires lingerie with another, gets tied up, and even kisses a gal pal.

Because normal girls don't do these things? Sorry to break it to you flash news, but I think ALL teenage girls do these things. Guys. I don't think the OP meant it in in an anti-homosexual way. I think he meant more along the lines of 'Oh gee, whoda' thunk it?'.

[Shady Lane]

The idea that the implication that a character is gay is sexual enough to warrant the erotica section--good thing she's only 12, so she's here--is pretty offensive to me. It's a pretty common homophobic standpoint to equate homosexuality with sexual activity. It's the same thing we discussed in the kids' forum, with people saying MG books can't have gay characters because MG books can't have sex. It's apples and oranges. Gay kids can hold hands and kiss each other on the cheek and blush about it just like straight kids.

And the "to think I introduced my daughter" sounds like she accidentally introduced her daughter to something immoral.

[leahzero]

You guys are all being way too serious about this.

Take it how it should be taken: as super hot.

[althrasher]

I don't think anyone's responses have been too serious. Homophobic statements like this really shouldn't be seen as OK, cute, or acceptable. And if they're unchallenged it's tacit approval.

Call it learning. :)

[The Kidd]

The idea that the implication that a character is gay is sexual enough to warrant the erotica section--good thing she's only 12, so she's here--is pretty offensive to me. It's a pretty common homophobic standpoint to equate homosexuality with sexual activity. It's the same thing we discussed in the kids' forum, with people saying MG books can't have gay characters because MG books can't have sex. It's apples and oranges. Gay kids can hold hands and kiss each other on the cheek and blush about it just like straight kids.

And the "to think I introduced my daughter" sounds like she accidentally introduced her daughter to something immoral.

I think he was concerned about the implied bondage rather than the homosexual overtones. Lets just see what he has to say. I know how you feel and I share your belief on this.

[Shady Lane]

You guys are all being way too serious about this.

Take it how it should be taken: as super hot.

:roll:

[JulieHowe]

I was an unusually sharp kid, way ahead of my age, and I didn't pick up on any gay vibes in the Nancy Drew books I read - these were the original hardcovers from the 1930s, not the edited reprints or newer books in the series that were written in the 1970s.

When I say I was way ahead of my age, I mean it - I read Judy Blume's Then Again, Maybe I Won't when I was seven years old. I still remember the near-heart attack I gave a caretaker when I asked her 'What's a wet dream?' I'm glad she recovered enough to answer my questions (after she found out why I'd asked) in a way I could process and understand, without telling me sex was evil and dirty, and the only place I was going was straight to hell.

I didn't set foot on the path to hell until I was eleven, the year I met Harold Robbins. Goodbye Janette damaged me for life. Even if I'd had an adult supervising my reading habits, it wouldn't have mattered - all of my friends' mothers were reading the book, so we always had a borrowed copy of the book to pass around during lunch and recess. Someone ought to take a poll of forty-year-old dominatrixes, madams and female prison guards and ask what books they were reading in junior high. I'm sure Goodbye Janette is high up on the list.

Had to add: The other book I'm positive warped my young mind was The Lonely Doll. It was the only picture book I ever read, and I was completely obsessed with it, at four years old.

[CACTUSWENDY]

Sounds like folks have way too much time on their hands and nothing better to do....lol.

Carry on.....................

[BenPanced]

I dunno, but I heard Wonder Woman was, like, an Amazon!
She started an online bookstore?

[mscelina]

She started an online bookstore?

Impossible. I think you have the Amazons mixed up. The Wonder Woman Amazons were obviously gay. I mean...that whip. Hello.

The bookstore Amazon doesn't like the ghey either.

So they can't be the same.

Carry on.

*whistles innocently and tries not to be 'too serious'*

[The Kidd]

She started an online bookstore?

LMAO XD

[Wayne K]

At different points Nancy shares a bed with a girl, admires lingerie with another, gets tied up, and even kisses a gal pal.

I was tipped off by all the comfortable shoes she owned

[^Graff]

She might have been a huge lesbian, but she ain't got nothin' on the Hardy Boys (http://rottenindenmark.vox.com/library/post/the-hardy-boys-were-gay.html):

"Nobody knows. But there's been queer lights seen down around them caves. And shootin'. Guns goin' off. Mighty queer doin's, they say..."

Chet whistled softly. "This sounds good! We may stay longer than we had intended..."

"The one thing we're afraid of is a quiet outing. Excitement," he added slangily, "is our meat."

"Ye'll get lots of it if ye go pokin' around them caves," the old gentleman predicted.

Frank halted and peered through the fog at the base of the rocks some distance ahead.

"Do you see somebody lying there, Joe...? Seems like a man sprawled on the sand...."

The boys hastened across the rocks in the direction of the figure on the shore...

They came up to the man sprawled on the sand. He was not dead. An empty bottle lying by his side told the reason for his slumber.

"He's drunk!"

"What shall we do with him?" asked Joe.

Frank groped in his pocket and produced a length of stout cord.

"We'll tie him up first!"

"What if he puts up a fight?"

"He's too drunk."

"Hey! What's this?" roared the car thief indignantly. He had just discovered that his wrists were bound.

"Just a little joke," said Frank.

Water was streaming down the man's face. He was thoroughly aroused by now.

Now those are some queer doin's, if you ask me.

[Wayne K]

From now on, everyone is gay until they prove otherwise

[Wayne K]

http://scottthong.files.wordpress.com/2007/10/cartoonbrokeback.gif

[Wayne K]

http://www.axelhotels.com/live/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/gay-penguins31.jpg

[JulieHowe]

Yeah, they were seriously weird. I don't think I ever finished reading a single Hardy Boys novel. I didn't like the TV series, either. (But I dug Bionic Woman... yeah, I can see there's definitely a thread running through the twisted fabric of my life.)

Now that I think about it, Nancy's best friend was a girl named George.

[Wayne K]

George was a handsome gal

[Thump]

Man... I guess I'm a Lesbian! I had no idea! I mean, all the signs are there! I've kissed my "gal pals", heck, we sometimes hold hands! In public! And we've shared beds, admired each other's undies (while still in them) and even, le gasp, tell each other we love each other!

I'm sorry for the apparently male author of the whole thing if he can't see that this is normal, even healthy behaviour. My guess is that it comes from the fact that girls are allowed to be this affectionate while men are not. It's a terrible double standard and men miss out on the closeness. This is probably why, on an emotional and emotional maturity levels, women are generally better adjusted.

And if Nancy Drew was a lezzie, what about the March sisters? A lot of iffy behaviour then. And the Bennet sisters! And basically all the characters from the books of the Comtesse de Segur!

[The Kidd]

From now on, everyone is gay until they prove otherwise

Um, i'm engaged to a guy? If you count that, it is almost like my teen years never happened :D

[Wayne K]

http://www.roadkilltshirts.com/Assets/ProductImages/PS_0161_FONZIE_GAY.jpg

[brainstorm77]

A writer named 'Destiny', and the mystery continues. For what it's worth, I think the article is a bunch of crap.

[Wayne K]

Yeh, according to my reps

[Wayne K]

Question answered

[MacAllister]

Let's be REAL goddamn careful with terminology like "lezzie."

In fact, let's not use it.

[brainstorm77]

Anyhoo some people love to make assumptions for whatever reason...

[The Kidd]

Peppermint Patty and Marcy...

You know even as a kid I always was like, 'Well. Charlie Brown isn't into Patty but Marcy likes Patty and calls her sir so maybe Marcy thinks Patty is cute.'

Oh the horror when I told this to my mother...

[brainstorm77]

You know even as a kid I always was like, 'Well. Charlie Brown isn't into Patty but Marcy likes Patty and calls her sir so maybe Marcy thinks Patty is cute.'

Oh the horror when I told this to my mother...

In an article by the peanuts creator, he said that when Patty was created he wanted a girl who didn't fit into the stereotype at the time. When asked why Marcy called Patty sir, he said it was due to her bad eyesight. In the beginning it was an annoyance of Patty's but in time she just put up with it.

[poetinahat]

No, wait. This could be the next Da Vinci Code! I'm sure Destiny hasn't thought of that yet!

Don't get him started on Robin Hood, okay? Ho, Ha, Dodge, Thrust, Parry, *THWACK*

(Oh, and just my $0.02, but I read the OP's "to think I introduced..." comment as very much tongue-in-cheek. Just sayin'.)

[shaldna]

You know, that would explain why she dated a tw*t like Ned, he was totally her beard.

Do lesbians have beards?

[M.Austin]

So THAT'S why I turned out a lesbo.

Because my mother introduced me to a lesbian character who in no way, shape, or form spoke of being a lesbian.

HOW COULD YOU DO THAT TO YOUR DAUGHTER!?!?!?!?!?!?!

Kidding.

[~grace~]

I was going to say something witty but the coffee hasn't sunk in yet.

So I'm just going to say the same thing I said when I found out Dumbledore was gay:

Does it matter?

Like, unless a homosexual relationship is actually part of the plot or a character's development, does it matter what (who) they do when they're off-screen? Or hell, even with they're on-screen.

[thothguard51]

To one and all, sorry it took so long to get back to respond to my own thread. Now, a few clarifications...

I posted in hopes of starting a conversation on the differences between writing 70 years ago and writing today, especially about sexuality in young adult books. I think some of the responders clearly noted the differences and I agree.

I would also like to clarify that I am not against the GLTB crowd and have many friends in this group that I respect. Just to be clear, there was no hidden or obvious reason why I posted suggesting ND was possibly gay. I just found the article somewhat interesting from a topic point of view.

I am also somewhat amazed at the number of members who jumped on the issue of why I made the statement about my daughter, as if I am somewhat embarrassed to have introduced her to Nancy Drew. The fact is, I am very glad I introduced my daughter to not just Nancy Drew, but many different styles of writing, authors, stories and genres.

Perhaps it was a mistake by me to post without explaining more on why I posted, but then that might have tainted the post that followed. I was looking for honest opinion on relevance to the article versus what we feel today. If I have insulted anyone or made them feel I was stirring the pot for no good reason, I do apologize as it was not my intent...

[Medievalist]

I heard that Nancy Drew was like totally dating Beebo Brinker.

[scarletpeaches]

Did she shave her legs, though?

[Medievalist]

She started an online bookstore?

In all seriousness, there was a super feminist/lesbian alternative bookstore in Minneapolis called the Amazon bookstore Coop, long before the 'net.

Amazon went after them; they counter-sued. They won, sort of, and lost huge amounts of money.

They were recently renamed, per an agreement with Amazon, True Colors, because the bookstore changed owners.

http://www.truecolorsbookstore.com/

[Lyra Jean]

I dunno, but I heard Wonder Woman was, like, an Amazon!

I heard Wonder Woman was into BDSM. The History Channel told me so it must be true!

[Lyra Jean]

I was tipped off by all the comfortable shoes she owned

So does this mean if I go with my gal friends to Victoria's Secret to buy lingerie and then go to Macy's to buy shoes we're secret lovers?

[Lyra Jean]

In an article by the peanuts creator, he said that when Patty was created he wanted a girl who didn't fit into the stereotype at the time. When asked why Marcy called Patty sir, he said it was due to her bad eyesight. In the beginning it was an annoyance of Patty's but in time she just put up with it.

And Patty also liked Snoopy. But I love the Peanut Gang. Peppermint Patty was my favorite character.

[brainstorm77]

And Patty also liked Snoopy. But I love the Peanut Gang. Peppermint Patty was my favorite character.

Same interview said that she thought Snoopy was the new kid in school and called him Chuck. :D

[Lyra Jean]

Same interview said that she thought Snoopy was the new kid in school and called him Chuck. :D

So Joe Cool just never caught on.

[PoppysInARow]

My derailitron says this thread is completely off course!


...Or is this my gaydar?

[brainstorm77]

So Joe Cool just never caught on. I think it's hilarious :D

[benbradley]

To the OP, discussion of (allegedly) gay characters probably fits better into the QLTBAG forum, though putting this in YA adds an extra something to the controversy. :D

And don't worry, they allow straight hetronormative people to post there too. ;)
Oh for Pete's sake. Are you effing kidding me?
...
What's next? Dr. Seuss had ADD?
Say it ain't true!
Say it ain't true!
One and one is two,
Oh please say it ain't true!
I also seriously doubt that this "article" is anything more than a bunch of fluff designed to stir up shit.
A writer needs readers to make a living, and something (the interest in this thread) tells me this writer will be eating steak instead of meatloaf this weekend...

What will the book burners think of next?
How did that movie line go ... "Burn 'em all, let God sort 'em out."
She might have been a huge lesbian, but she ain't got nothin' on the Hardy Boys (http://rottenindenmark.vox.com/library/post/the-hardy-boys-were-gay.html):
Oh, no, now you're gonna tell me why Tom Swift likes those big, long rocket ships...
In all seriousness, there was a super feminist/lesbian alternative bookstore in Minneapolis called the Amazon bookstore Coop, long before the 'net.

Amazon went after them; they counter-sued. They won, sort of, and lost huge amounts of money.

They were recently renamed, per an agreement with Amazon, True Colors, because the bookstore changed owners.

http://www.truecolorsbookstore.com/
Yeah, that's a trademark thing. The basic rule appears to be the person who can afford the most lawyers owns the trademark.

There was a restaurant in Atlanta for a quarter century or so named the Olympic Restaurant, or something with Olympic in the name. Then around 1993-1994 the "real" Olympics were coming to town, and they had to drop that word from their name.

[PoppysInARow]

There was a restaurant in Atlanta for a quarter century or so named the Olympic Restaurant, or something with Olympic in the name. Then around 1993-1994 the "real" Olympics were coming to town, and they had to drop that word from their name.

"The Resturant" is just so catchy. :D

[History_Chick]

The Hardy Boys quotes had me laughing! Love em.

A gay Nancy Drew is nothing shocking in todays world. HOwever in the 1930s I'm sure some eyebrows would have gone up.

My grandmother tried to get me to read Nancy Drew when I was a kid, but I thought it was dull, so I gave up.

It would be interesting though if someone could get an original 1930s book to see if there are gay undertones to it.

[jennontheisland]

Gay undertones? I think people seem to forget that holding hands is a sign of friendship. Small children do it all the time.

There is supposed to be a certain amount of innocence in YA books and this kind of ridiculous "zomg teh gay!" totally kills that. There's nothing homosexual about two friends expressing their platonic affection for each other.

Subversiveness does not exist in all works. Though some people really seem to want it to.

[veinglory]

Coming soon: 'Mandrake the Magician is a Satanist!' and 'The Phantom is an Illegal Immigrant'.

[Lyra Jean]

Gay undertones? I think people seem to forget that holding hands is a sign of friendship. Small children do it all the time.

There is supposed to be a certain amount of innocence in YA books and this kind of ridiculous "zomg teh gay!" totally kills that. There's nothing homosexual about two friends expressing their platonic affection for each other.

Subversiveness does not exist in all works. Though some people really seem to want it to.

this is so true! I don't know how many times me and my best friends went around with hands held or arms interwined or waist tied together pretending we were siamese twins.

[Medievalist]

It would be interesting though if someone could get an original 1930s book to see if there are gay undertones to it.

Yeah, no, not so much.

[shaldna]

The Hardy Boys quotes had me laughing! Love em.

A gay Nancy Drew is nothing shocking in todays world. HOwever in the 1930s I'm sure some eyebrows would have gone up.

My grandmother tried to get me to read Nancy Drew when I was a kid, but I thought it was dull, so I gave up.

It would be interesting though if someone could get an original 1930s book to see if there are gay undertones to it.


Howso? I'm a straight 28 year old woman, and I still hold hands with my friends in public. When they stya over/I stay over we will share a bed.

I fail to see how that has any sort of gay undertones.

[Zoombie]

There is supposed to be a certain amount of innocence in YA books and this kind of ridiculous "zomg teh gay!" totally kills that. There's nothing homosexual about two friends expressing their platonic affection for each other.

Wait, but...young adult has a load of innocent young love, with hold handing and kissing and stuff.

I see no reason why gay and lesbian children can't have innocent young love...


(Note, I haven't read Nacy Drew, so I can't say one way or the other as to her sexual identity, not that I think its much of my buisness.)


Also, as a side note, due to English being a fucking weird language and American culture being equally as weird when it comes to sex, I'd like to grumble about how when people say homosexual, they always seem to get hung up on the 'sexual' bit.

Heterosexual relationships are not all about sex, for crying out loud. I know other people have pointed this out, but I need to point it out again. Cause its two in the morning and I'm easily irritated when I haven't gotten my beauty sleep.

[scarletpeaches]

Howso? I'm a straight 28 year old woman, and I still hold hands with my friends in public. When they stya over/I stay over we will share a bed.

I fail to see how that has any sort of gay undertones.Holding hands makes you gay.

To prevent catching 'teh ghey', I will link arms with a friend and no more.

When girlfriends (steady!) stay over, we share a bed. It's a double though, and we both wear chastity belts, and there's no touching.

[thothguard51]

This thread did not go as I had thought, my bad...

I didn't want to open an agenda about lifestyles, but about the possible hidden agenda's some writers may slip into their work, or reviewers/critics add where none is warranted. That is all...

[legendary bum]

LMAO, scarletpeaches! This is the funniest thread ever. :D

[shaldna]

Holding hands makes you gay.

To prevent catching 'teh ghey', I will link arms with a friend and no more.

When girlfriends (steady!) stay over, we share a bed. It's a double though, and we both wear chastity belts, and there's no touching.


The amount of sleeping around I've done (in my past life, i'm a respectable mother now) catching 'teh ghey' is the least of my worries.

Although, once there were five of us in a double bed - thunderstorm, tin roof, not a good combination.

[plunderpuss]

(This comment is kind of serious, and kind of a joke. Unfortunately, the two are conjoined and surgically inseparable.)

I read all the Nancy Drew books when I was a kid, ALL of them, because I liked mysteries so much. But during each book, I would yell at Nancy out loud. "Don't go in that cabin! The bad guy is following you! What is wrong with you? WHY WOULD YOU DO THAT? God you're so STUPID! George and Bess should ditch you!"

Now, I'm not saying lesbians are smarter than hetero chicks, but I am saying that all lesbians are smarter than Nancy Drew. There's a certain amount of healthy fear you pick up from being gay (unfortunately) that precludes you from doing things like marching off in the middle of nowhere without anyone else knowing where your gay ass went except for people who wouldn't exactly shed tears if you got a 60mph back massage from a Buick.

[Medievalist]

This thread did not go as I had thought, my bad...

I didn't want to open an agenda about lifestyles, but about the possible hidden agenda's some writers may slip into their work, or reviewers/critics add where none is warranted. That is all...

The problem is that for large numbers of people queer folk are all about teh sexy.

And in particular, there are problems with language like "agenda" and "lifestyle" in a queer context. They make you look less than bright.

The original article, now THAT was funny and full of subtext, but not the one you think.

[Medievalist]

(This comment is kind of serious, and kind of a joke. Unfortunately, the two are conjoined and surgically inseparable.).

This comment is full of win. Also truth, and black humor.

[BenPanced]

Somebody must have noticed something, as Mabel Maney has written some amusing parodies of the "teen detective" ilk. (http://productsearch.barnesandnoble.com/search/results.aspx?WRD=mabel+maney[/url) Or she did it just to be silly.

[thothguard51]

The problem is that for large numbers of people queer folk are all about teh sexy.

And in particular, there are problems with language like "agenda" and "lifestyle" in a queer context. They make you look less than bright.

The original article, now THAT was funny and full of subtext, but not the one you think.

Medi,

I can assure you there was no hidden agenda on my part in starting this thread in my views on gay issues. I only wished to discuss what authors hide/weave in their work, (subconsciously or otherwise), or how others view an authors intent.

AS to looking less than bright...

I will leave that to others to decide. Yes, I could have chosen my words more carefully and even named the thread differently so my exact intent was clear. Of this, I stand guilty as charged. Still, I have learned something about opinions and will think more before posting again...

Thank you for the honest comments, one and all...

[Epiphany]

At different points Nancy shares a bed with a girl, admires lingerie with another, gets tied up, and even kisses a gal pal.

HOLY SHIT. I'M GAY!?

Great thread, guys. Thanks for the laughs. And I heart Nancy Drew foreva.

[Medievalist]

Medi,

I can assure you there was no hidden agenda on my part in starting this thread in my views on gay issues..

I know that, or you'd have heard my growls.

The problem is that without any malice on your part, you used the language that's usually used to object to queer folk even existing; I realize it wasn't intentional.

I also realize that you didn't get the in-jokes in the original article (http://www.10zenmonkeys.com/2010/04/30/nancy-drews-sexy-secrets/), and that's not your fault either. The article is tongue-in-cheek. It's mostly about the way language has changed, rather than arguing about a lesbian subtext. The article you linked to missed the point entirely.

Keep in mind that the pioneering (but otherwise wretched and soul-destroying) "lesbian novel" was Radclyffe Hall's 1928 The Well of Lonlieness.

[thothguard51]

Medi,

Your comment was more what I had in mind as far as discussion. Thank you...