Writers who don't do drugs (Writing about people who do)

[BelmontHeir]

Here's the thing: I don't do drugs at all, yet frequently find myself writing about a subset of people in this country who do. I've had at least one person tell me that a story suffered from my lack of knowledge on how drugs affect a person's perception of reality.

So if I'm trying to write from the POV of someone who is stoned or tripping on acid, what could I do to make my writing more authentic...bar actually getting stoned or dropping acid myself? Heh.

[CaroGirl]

Same here. I've been drunk and smoked marijuana but I've never dropped acid or shot heroin or smoked crack any of those hard (scary, to me) drugs. I often write about it, though. My answer is: research. I've read a lot about individual drug experiences and I've observed people under the influence of various substances. Do you have any friends who do drugs or who know people who do drugs? Ask if you can attend a party where people will be doing the drugs you're interested in.

[OneWriter]

Google has a number of resources for parents on how to tell their kids are doing stuff... It depends on how much detail you need, there's also support groups on line. For what I needed (but I'm writing a detective story) the chapter dedicated to drugs on Lofland's book (http://www.amazon.com/Howdunit-Book-Police-Procedure-Investigation/dp/1582974551) sufficed. He explains how drugs affect people.

[WriteKnight]

Research is the answer to anything you can't or won't experience yourself. This includes anything that might be illegal (Drugs to murder) or exceptionally dangerous (Extreme sports to warfare) or simply 'out of rich' (Lifestyles of the rich and famous, or some career you can't achieve in short order IE Surgeons, Astronaut etc.)

Research includes reading up on the angle of course. Internet has made this extremely accessible . But really first hand accounts - talking face to face is absolutely the best way to get 'insight'.

Once the details are lined up - then the writer must reach down into their own experiences to find some sort of emotional connection - and help give the issue that ring of truth. Ever WANTED to kill someone? That depth of emotion. Ever FALLEN from a great height safely? Whatever you can do to help relate to the subject matter will infuse it with authenticity. One does not have to be addicted to DRUGS to have an understanding of addiction or compulsive behavior.

[PeterL]

So if I'm trying to write from the POV of someone who is stoned or tripping on acid, what could I do to make my writing more authentic...bar actually getting stoned or dropping acid myself? Heh.


You might try hanging around people who were taking drugs, but I really don't think that it is possible to communicate the experience of tripping without tripping. You should consider taking acid. Actual pure LSD is perfectly safe, and the experience is good for the mental health of about 998 out of 1000 people. The only person I know who was harmed by acid eventually made the experience profitable by using it as a basis for a novel.

[RJK]

I haven't done heroin but I had the next best thing. Many years ago I had my appendix out. They gave me morphine for the pain. Apparently gave me more than I needed because I still remember how good I felt. I lay in the hospital bed floating about four inches above the mattress. Relatives came to visit, I smiled, waved to them and ignored their presence. I truly learned the meaning of euphoria that day.

Pot smokers feel good, mellow, high, but nothing like the high from morphine or heroin (which is purified morphine).

Speed users are agitated and paranoid. They jump at anything, they live in a fight or flight condition and have significantly more strength than they would normally. I had to fight a guy tripping on speed once. I had him face down on the ground with his arms behind him, and he bucked me (200+ pounds) off. I ended up clubbing him unconscious, giving him a minor skull fracture. (he had been trying to beat his GF to death with a long-handled shovel when I got there).

Acid users are in a whole nother world. They can be on a mild trip, where things are just enhanced, to a major psychotic event where reality has taken leave. I watched a man take a swan dive off a seven story building, flapping his arms as if he was flying. He flew, straight down, bouncing about 6 feet. He probably died on impact. He was dead when I got to him.

I don't know if this helps.

[ChristineR]

You might try hanging around people who were taking drugs, but I really don't think that it is possible to communicate the experience of tripping without tripping. You should consider taking acid. Actual pure LSD is perfectly safe, and the experience is good for the mental health of about 998 out of 1000 people. The only person I know who was harmed by acid eventually made the experience profitable by using it as a basis for a novel.

That's really bad advice, for two reasons. First, most of what's sold as acid is not pure acid, and many of the adulterants are not safe at all. I've heard estimates that around 75% of "acid" isn't, and I've personally seen people messed up by taking something that was sold to them as "acid" but was completely different. And even genuine pure acid is often contaminated because it's so hard to manufacture.

Secondly, that's illegal. I'd think long and hard about doing anything that could land me in prison just to help my writing.

[Fresie]

I don't do drugs but I used to live in Amsterdam for quite a few years which is the next best thing :) Although I understand where the advice PeterL gives you is coming from, I'd say doing it yourself is not really necessary because what you need is not the actual experience, it's the words you put this experience into. It's common knowledge that a drunk actor can't play a drunk convincingly :) and you might profit much more from meeting (online or in person) people who can describe their experience for you. So that actual drug users can read it and say, "Oh yes, he obviously knows what he's talking about!":) while all you've done you've used the right words to describe the experience.

Talking about the advice PeterL gives you, one thing I've heard often from my Amsterdam "friends" with life-long histories of unrepentant drug using is that LSD, no matter how pure, is absolutely unpredictable. You can never tell in advance whether it's going to be a good or a bad trip, and very few people have survived a bad trip intact. For many, their very first bad trip ended at the graveyard or in a mental hospital. "Dangerous" is an understatement, and that's straight from the horse's mouth.

[PeterL]

That's really bad advice, for two reasons. First, most of what's sold as acid is not pure acid, and many of the adulterants are not safe at all. I've heard estimates that around 75% of "acid" isn't, and I've personally seen people messed up by taking something that was sold to them as "acid" but was completely different. And even genuine pure acid is often contaminated because it's so hard to manufacture.

Secondly, that's illegal. I'd think long and hard about doing anything that could land me in prison just to help my writing.

You first objection is a non sequitur, since I suggested using pure LSD.

The legality of the act is well known, and it doesn't stop people who want to try the stuff. If you don't want to use LSD, then I would suggest that you not use it. However, if you want to learn what it effects are, then you might want to change your mind.

[Celia Cyanide]

You first objection is a non sequitur, since I suggested using pure LSD.

And how is someone who has never used drugs before supposed to know where to get pure LSD, or if it is, in fact, pure LSD? Someone who doesn't know enough about drugs to write about them is probably not going to know enough to actually go and get them and know for certain what they have.

[benbradley]

OP, what about posting a few pertinent pages of your work in SYW, so we can get a better idea of what you reader(s) are talking about?
You might try hanging around people who were taking drugs, but I really don't think that it is possible to communicate the experience of tripping without tripping. ...
Then one can't write about it from reading trippers' accounts? Then maybe it's not possible to communicate the experience of tripping period.

Certainly an experience becomes more "watered down" as its description becomes second or third hand, but that's true of anything, not just the effects of mind-altering drugs.
And how is someone who has never used drugs before supposed to know where to get pure LSD, or if it is, in fact, pure LSD? Someone who doesn't know enough about drugs to write about them is probably not going to know enough to actually go and get them and know for certain what they have.
I was thinking just that, and its illegality makes determining purity much more complicated.

For going that route, I'd suggest a chemistry degree, which would help you determine purity or to make the stuff yourself. Of course, that gets back to the thing of becoming a surgeon or astronaut just to be able to write about the profession.

Also, I've never done acid or anything like it. I have rather limited experiences with lesser substances (okay, I DO have a lot of experience with alcohol, though it's all in the receding past) but it was enough to show me how inconsistent the effects can be, and I did hear enough of what I thought of as "legitimate" info in all the anti-drug propaganda in school and elsewhere that scared me away from most drugs. In retrospect I'd likely have been one of the two out of those 1000 (presuming that figure is correct) to have a very negative experience, and might have ended up the way Syd Barret lived the last several decades of his life, which definitely wasn't good.

[shaldna]

I've had a fairly interesting live, but I can say that, other than doing things yourself, the best option is to talk to people who have done those things.

[Libbie]

Talk to people who use drugs. Ask them to describe the experience for you. Translate their descriptions into your own voice.

[Smiling Ted]

Instead of going to a party - anyone doing drugs at a party *doesn't* want to describe it to writer - try getting in touch with your local police department.

They can probably put you in touch with drug users in rehab programs who are willing to talk. This has the added benefit of being in a controlled environment where your relative inexperience won't get you in serious trouble.

[wrangler]

Here's the thing: I don't do drugs at all, yet frequently find myself writing about a subset of people in this country who do. I've had at least one person tell me that a story suffered from my lack of knowledge on how drugs affect a person's perception of reality.

So if I'm trying to write from the POV of someone who is stoned or tripping on acid, what could I do to make my writing more authentic...bar actually getting stoned or dropping acid myself? Heh. too easy...research.

or if your like me, try it.

[wrangler]

Secondly, that's illegal. I'd think long and hard about doing anything that could land me in prison just to help my writing.

interesting...i wouldn't. although there are a few things. doing "illegal" drugs isn't one of them though.

[DrZoidberg]

When it comes to LSD specifically I think you're definitely gimping yourself if you haven't done it yourself. It shifts around your whole perception in ways you need to experience to believe. I think it's impossible to understand without having done it yourself.

But if you don't want to:
http://www.erowid.org/
is a good resource. They've got so called "trip reports". Those might help.

You also have the problem that doing research on drugs is extremely difficult, since all the twisted propaganda on both "sides". Psychonauts are a wee bit uncritical about the harm, and tend to overstate the benefits (ie expansion of the mind etc). And the repression loonies think it's the devil, and don't mind lying through their teeth if it'll "save the children". Those last ones are regrettably represented in our governments.

If you have any specific question about doing LSD, I'd be more than happy to answer. I can speak about it in sober retrospect. It was over fifteen years ago I did it last.

[PeterL]

And how is someone who has never used drugs before supposed to know where to get pure LSD, or if it is, in fact, pure LSD? Someone who doesn't know enough about drugs to write about them is probably not going to know enough to actually go and get them and know for certain what they have.

You might ask around. There are laboratories that will test the drugs.

[PeterL]

Then one can't write about it from reading trippers' accounts? Then maybe it's not possible to communicate the experience of tripping period.

That is possible.

[/QUOTE]Certainly an experience becomes more "watered down" as its description becomes second or third hand, but that's true of anything, not just the effects of mind-altering drugs.
[/QUOTE]

I agree.

[stephenf]

The experience people have with drugs varies from one to another.Also, most people who take recreational drugs have know idea what they are actual taking or the dosage.There is plenty of drug related books out there ,The doors of perception and heaven and hell, by Aldous Huxley would be a good start.The Idea that a writer must experience what he writs must be wrong.Not much would ever get written if it was true.

[RobinGBrown]

You should consider taking acid.

First I'd have to say that that is really bad advice, I'm not against people using drugs but it would be very silly to take something in order to do research for a novel.

but I really don't think that it is possible to communicate the experience of tripping without tripping.

Secondly, that amounts to the Courtier's Reply - it's perfectly possible to _imagine_ the effects of LSD without taking it. Drugs aren't _magic_, they don't let your brain do stuff it it can't do normally, they help it do stuff easier that you would have a hard time doing without drugs.

http://rationalwiki.com/wiki/Courtier's_reply

[PeterL]

First I'd have to say that that is really bad advice, I'm not against people using drugs but it would be very silly to take something in order to do research for a novel.

Why do you consider that bad advice? The opening poster is the one who wants to know how to describe drug experiences, not me. If you want good advice, then you might consider the old "Write about what you know."

Secondly, that amounts to the Courtier's Reply - it's perfectly possible to _imagine_ the effects of LSD without taking it. Drugs aren't _magic_, they don't let your brain do stuff it it can't do normally, they help it do stuff easier that you would have a hard time doing without drugs.


Since you will be writing fiction, why are you concerned about what something really is?

[CaroGirl]

You should consider taking acid. Actual pure LSD is perfectly safe, and the experience is good for the mental health of about 998 out of 1000 people.
I agree this is bad advice. LSD is not perfectly safe. It's been proven to kickstart psychiatric disorders in vulnerable members of the population. What if you're person #999? Not worth it, IMO.

Any skilled writer can write anything outside his experience convincingly through research and observation.

ETA: PeterL - You have a fundamental but common misunderstanding of the adage "write what you know". It does NOT mean that if you've never taken an airplane you absolutely canNOT write convincingly about air travel. What it means is that whenever you relate an experience to the reader, tap the emotions and experiences that you HAVE had in the telling of the new experience. If the air travel character is afraid to fly, use something you're afraid of to relate the experience of fear. That's all the adage means.

[PeterL]

ETA: PeterL - You have a fundamental but common misunderstanding of the adage "write what you know". It does NOT mean that if you've never taken an airplane you absolutely canNOT write convincingly about air travel. What it means is that whenever you relate an experience to the reader, tap the emotions and experiences that you HAVE had in the telling of the new experience. If the air travel character is afraid to fly, use something you're afraid of to relate the experience of fear. That's all the adage means.


You have a clear misunderstanding.

[RJK]

Tell me, Peter, if there were 500 handguns on a table and one was loaded, would you randomly pick one up, point it at your head and pull the trigger? Just for kicks, you know.

I worked security at a Grateful Dead concert once. It was a once in a lifetime experience to observe so many people, young, middle 20's, 30's, 40's and 50's, all in their own world. Some would sit or stand and stare int nothingness. Others would dance in circles. Another guy hopped wherever he went. They sang along with the band, but made up their own words. It was strange to the point that I was uneasy being around so many people so far disassociated with reality. That was the good part of the concert.

The bad part was the first aid station. There were so many people being treated for bumps, bruises, scrapes and cuts that they were lined up in the hall. Then came the bad trippers. We have six ambulances in the city and they were all in use transporting people to the psych ward via the emergency room. They just ran back and forth between the convention center and the hospital for hours. There had to be over 30 people who had to be taken out screaming about some unseen horror. And the band played on.

Bad acid? Maybe. Just plain bad trips? probably. Luckily, most of the people recovered when they came down from the trip. several didn't.

[PeterL]

Tell me, Peter, if there were 500 handguns on a table and one was loaded, would you randomly pick one up, point it at your head and pull the trigger? Just for kicks, you know.



That's a false analogy.

As for the rest. I hope that you had a good time.

[Rowan]

You might try hanging around people who were taking drugs, but I really don't think that it is possible to communicate the experience of tripping without tripping. You should consider taking acid. Actual pure LSD is perfectly safe, and the experience is good for the mental health of about 998 out of 1000 people. The only person I know who was harmed by acid eventually made the experience profitable by using it as a basis for a novel.

Bolding is mine.
OMFG, BelmontHeir... I really hope you don't take this advice. I'm stunned... I've never used narcotics, but I've arrested many people who have. I can tell you that I learned a great deal just from interviewing said people. You don't need to drop acid, snort coke or chase the dragon to accurately describe how drugs make your characters feel. I can't believe I've just witnessed someone suggesting you drop acid to write a book! Just when I thought I'd seen and heard it all... wow, just wow. I have characters who get shot or ripped up by shapeshifters, but I'm not about to get shot myself (and something tells me that I'm not likely to run across anyone who's been shredded by a shifter ;) ).

Just as others have said, research is key and talking to people who've been in the shoes your characters will be wearing. However, I would avoid attending parties where drugs are prevalent--you really never know who might show up. :) If you have any questions, please feel free to PM me and I'll do what I can to help. Having said that, I somehow doubt your target audience is full of drug users so that person who said you "missed the mark" when it came to realistic drug trips...I say take that opinion with a grain of salt.

Cheers!

[blackrose602]

I'm not sure what's up with the anti-drug propaganda here. I don't agree with the advice for the OP to go out and try LSD for research, since it's tough to know what you're getting and how pure it is unless you know the chemist. At the same time, some of the stories that have been shared are, well, questionable. RJK, are you positive that the guy who took a swan dive was on acid? Because that's classic PCP behavior, not LSD. The people at the Grateful Dead concert? Same thing. A bad trip on LSD does not, in fact, make you crazy or cause you to shriek in horror at unknown assailants. It's perfectly possible for someone who knows what's going on, is familiar with the drug, knows you took it and is calm to talk you down from a bad acid trip. As I said earlier, though, PCP is an entirely different ballgame.

Slightly off topic: There are, at this very moment, over a dozen government-approved research studies currently being conducted on the use of psychedelic drugs to enhance anxiety therapy. (Source: Scientific American). Real live people taking acid or psilocybin in controlled doses in a therapist's office. And so far it's having dramatic positive results. So no, acid is not a scary bad drug that makes people go insane. It's a much maligned victim of the War on Drugs. /off topic rant

Back to the topic: I think research can suffice, but it needs to be good research, not propagandized websites or the measured stories of rehabilitated individuals contacted through the local police department. I agree with the idea of going to parties. Listen to the music. Watch the behaviors. Talk to people who are tripping, not from a "I'm a writer and want to interview you" perspective, but from a "Hey man, what's going on" perspective. Let people ramble.

Then, as others have said, find a way to relate what you see/hear/experience to your own memories. That's where being a good writer, or any kind of artist, comes into play. But without witnessing the experience, how can you ever hope to find something to relate it to?

[BelmontHeir]

Having said that, I somehow doubt your target audience is full of drug users so that person who said you "missed the mark" when it came to realistic drug trips...I say take that opinion with a grain of salt.


That's a good point. A friend of mine is actually the one who told me that my unfamiliarity with drugs showed through in my work. He is a recreational drug user so I suppose I should be asking him. However, our friendship has become strained as of late and he has a very clinical, detached mind when it comes to most things in life so I don't think that his drug experiences are necessarily going to be of the same variety as your average party-goer, the latter of which is who I'm trying to capture in my writing.

Upon reflection, I think in the past I've relied too much on the "edginess" factor of featuring drug-abusing characters in a story and not really treated the subject with authenticity or sincerity. I'm going to take what everyone says into consideration but, yeah, I feel like I need to do some observation or interviewing of drug users.

[benbradley]

Instead of going to a party - anyone doing drugs at a party *doesn't* want to describe it to writer - try getting in touch with your local police department.

They can probably put you in touch with drug users in rehab programs who are willing to talk. This has the added benefit of being in a controlled environment where your relative inexperience won't get you in serious trouble.
Or you can call any rehab, and likely a counselor will be willing to tell you his or her personal experiences (virtually all such counselors are "recovering" people themselves).

But your best bet it to talk to someone freshly in for only few days, and in rehab for the first time, otherwise you're bound to get a skewed picture. Rehab teaches (actually, more like programs) them to think of drugs as really bad, horribly bad, the Devil Incarnate, and all their life experiences before rehab as being totally negative.

[DrZoidberg]

The problem with asking rehab people, medical professionals or law enforcement officers is that you only get into contact with people who in one way or another have had problems with drugs.

There's plenty of research that shows that the vast majority of people who do drugs have no problems with it, apart from hangovers. That includes LSD, and me. It's a lot harder to come into contact with people like that, because they have every reason to lie about it. So their voices are completely missing from the debate. And since they don't have any problems from drugs they're invisible in the media. But we know they exist. Somebody must be snorting up, and pissing out the rivers of metabolised cocaine we have in our sewers. If we do the numbers it's pretty unlikely they're all drug addicts, even though it can't be ruled out.

[Rowan]

The problem with asking rehab people, medical professionals or law enforcement officers is that you only get into contact with people who in one way or another have had problems with drugs.



I have to disagree. Some of these professions come into contact with people who DON'T believe they have a problem with drugs... often multiple times! ;) And you'd be surprised how candid these people are when asked "why" and whatnot. Do drug users lie? Sure. So like I said, you must take everything with a grain of salt.

On that note, whether or not someone "has a problem with drugs" or not (not sure how that 's even relevant to the issue)--the effect of drugs is the same. But everyone will describe their experience somewhat differently, which is why the OP can use her imagination to describe her character's thoughts, reactions and feelings when shooting up (or snorting/smoking, etc.). The easier part is figuring out how to describe the method of delivery and the slang---by easy I mean research-wise...

[DrZoidberg]

I have to disagree. Some of these professions come into contact with people who DON'T believe they have a problem with drugs... often multiple times! ;) And you'd be surprised how candid these people are when asked "why" and whatnot. Do drug users lie? Sure. So like I said, you must take everything with a grain of salt.


Are you seriously claiming that all who use drugs are addicts? That it's simply a question of them being in denial or not? That is what you are implying.

FYI, LSD isn't addictive.

edit: On topic. I suggest reading Alice in Wonderland. It doesn't get more tripy than that.

[ChristineR]

I'm not sure what's up with the anti-drug propaganda here. I don't agree with the advice for the OP to go out and try LSD for research, since it's tough to know what you're getting and how pure it is unless you know the chemist. At the same time, some of the stories that have been shared are, well, questionable. RJK, are you positive that the guy who took a swan dive was on acid? Because that's classic PCP behavior, not LSD. The people at the Grateful Dead concert? Same thing. A bad trip on LSD does not, in fact, make you crazy or cause you to shriek in horror at unknown assailants. It's perfectly possible for someone who knows what's going on, is familiar with the drug, knows you took it and is calm to talk you down from a bad acid trip. As I said earlier, though, PCP is an entirely different ballgame.

Slightly off topic: There are, at this very moment, over a dozen government-approved research studies currently being conducted on the use of psychedelic drugs to enhance anxiety therapy. (Source: Scientific American). Real live people taking acid or psilocybin in controlled doses in a therapist's office. And so far it's having dramatic positive results. So no, acid is not a scary bad drug that makes people go insane. It's a much maligned victim of the War on Drugs. /off topic rant

Back to the topic: I think research can suffice, but it needs to be good research, not propagandized websites or the measured stories of rehabilitated individuals contacted through the local police department. I agree with the idea of going to parties. Listen to the music. Watch the behaviors. Talk to people who are tripping, not from a "I'm a writer and want to interview you" perspective, but from a "Hey man, what's going on" perspective. Let people ramble.

Then, as others have said, find a way to relate what you see/hear/experience to your own memories. That's where being a good writer, or any kind of artist, comes into play. But without witnessing the experience, how can you ever hope to find something to relate it to?

I don't think of myself as anti-drug. I were queen of the world, LSD would be legal, regulated, and come in a box with a list of potential drug interactions.

It's entirely possible that what RJK saw was someone on PCP that had been sold as acid, which sort of proves my point. Real, pure, uncut and properly manufactured acid is the exception, not the rule. It would do BelmontHeir no good to go to a party, drop PCP, possibly end up arrested in the emergency room. He still wouldn't even know what a real acid trip was like.

[PeterL]

The problem with asking rehab people, medical professionals or law enforcement officers is that you only get into contact with people who in one way or another have had problems with drugs.

There's plenty of research that shows that the vast majority of people who do drugs have no problems with it, apart from hangovers. That includes LSD, and me. It's a lot harder to come into contact with people like that, because they have every reason to lie about it. So their voices are completely missing from the debate. And since they don't have any problems from drugs they're invisible in the media. But we know they exist. Somebody must be snorting up, and pissing out the rivers of metabolised cocaine we have in our sewers. If we do the numbers it's pretty unlikely they're all drug addicts, even though it can't be ruled out.


Perfectly true. I get the impressions that some of the posters here believe the propaganda against drugs.

[kuwisdelu]

I have to disagree. Some of these professions come into contact with people who DON'T believe they have a problem with drugs... often multiple times! ;) And you'd be surprised how candid these people are when asked "why" and whatnot. Do drug users lie? Sure. So like I said, you must take everything with a grain of salt.

That doesn't change the fact that it's likely those professions have a negative view of drugs. I mean, just taking your own post as an example, not everyone who does drugs has a problem with them.

If the writer doesn't want to do the drug in question himself, I'd suggest the best course of research would be to talk to current users, not ex-users or people who only work with users but aren't users themselves. It will give a much clearer, less biased description of the experiences.

[Libbie]

This has turned into a rather interesting thread. Let me throw in my "official" stance on drugs:

I have never and never will use drugs other than alcohol or caffeine (yes, they are drugs. Any ingested substance that induces physical and/or mental changes is a drug.) I almost never drink alcohol, and I never get drunk. I have made this choice because of my family history; because we really don't know yet whether addiction is genetic or environmental or both or neither. I have chosen not to risk it. Writing is too important to me -- I don't want my creativity to be killed by drugs, the way my artist father's was killed by his drug use.

That being said, I know lots of people who are regular drug users and who, based on their behavior, their intelligence, their creativity, and their capability, you would never suspect of using drugs, ever. I was shocked when I found out some of them used anything other than the typical occasional beer. I have watched some of them get high, so I've witnessed this drug use with my own eyes. When they came down, they were the same reliable, smart, creative, functional members of the citizenry they were before. These people do not have the typical "stoner" affect. They don't dress like scuzzy drug people. They don't have druggie laughs. They are certainly not addicts -- their drug use has no negative consequences in their lives -- it doesn't interfere with work or relationships. They are successful, kind, and could pass for Mormons if they wanted to. Drug use to them is a true recreational activity -- something they do occasionally to unwind and to enjoy themselves, the way I go for walks or go birding or paint pictures. For these people, it's totally harmless in every conceivable way. They even vaporize instead of smoking, so they're inhaling less particulate matter and sparing their lungs.

Drugs do not negatively effect everybody. I'd venture a guess that way, WAY more people than you suspect smoke pot and you don't even know they do it. Not everybody "shows" that they are a user. I suspect that the majority of users don't "show."

If you ask some of your friends or relatives, I bet you'll find people who use, and they'll surprise you. Tell them you want to talk to them while they're sober about what using is like. They'll tell you. They'll be honest with you. (Just don't talk to them while they're high -- they'll probably mostly just jump around and giggle about comic book villains.)

Yeah, you'll be shocked, but it'll make you re-think everything you thought you knew about who drug users are and what drugs are like. You don't want to talk to people in rehab unless you want to write a character who's in rehab. A person in rehab is going to have a vastly different perspective on drug use than a person who is a true recreational, non-addicted user. If you want to write a character who's got his shit together and who occasionally uses drugs for fun, and doesn't have a lot of negative consequences for it, talk to the people who have that experience. They are everywhere.

Once you realize how prevalent they are, you'll really wonder why drugs are illegal.

Final note: Carl Sagan smoked pot every day for most of his life. He was one of the most intelligent, creative, brilliant and successful human beings I can think of.

(Again I reiterate: I do not use any drugs except the very rare drop of alcohol and the more regular cup of coffee. It's a personal choice for everybody.)

[benbradley]

Are you seriously claiming that all who use drugs are addicts? That it's simply a question of them being in denial or not? That is what you are implying.
That's a common, virtually universal belief among those in the alcohol-and-drug treatment industry. Alcohol is believed to be unique in that only some people get addicted to it.

[Celia Cyanide]

You might ask around. There are laboratories that will test the drugs.

And probably find out you've wasted a lot of time and money.

[PeterL]

And probably find out you've wasted a lot of time and money.

More likely wasted a little time and money. Of course, there is the all natural solution; there is a plant that produces LSD.

[CaroGirl]

More likely wasted a little time and money. Of course, there is the all natural solution; there is a plant that produces LSD.
OMG. No need!

Do I need to live on the streets to write a homeless character? Do I need to jump out of an airplane to write a skydiving scene? Do I need be schizophrenic to write a psychotic character? Do I have to have lived during the Vietnam war to write a scene that was set there, at that time? I do NOT.

Research can help me convincingly write any of those things without actually experiencing them for myself. There are things I CAN'T experience, like different time periods, different sex, or mental illness. Does that mean those subjects are off limits to me and to my imagination? BS.

Tell Arthur Golden a white man in the 20th century CAN'T convincingly write from the perspective of a Chinese woman living more than a century ago. Tell him. Dare ya.

[PeterL]

OMG. No need!

Do I need to live on the streets to write a homeless character? Do I need to jump out of an airplane to write a skydiving scene? Do I need be schizophrenic to write a psychotic character? Do I have to have lived during the Vietnam war to write a scene that was set there, at that time? I do NOT.

Research can help me convincingly write any of those things without actually experiencing them for myself. There are things I CAN'T experience, like different time periods, different sex, or mental illness. Does that mean those subjects are off limits to me and to my imagination? BS.

Tell Arthur Golden a white man in the 20th century CAN'T convincingly write from the perspective of a Chinese woman living more than a century ago. Tell him. Dare ya.


It's OK. You don't have to take drugs, if you don't want to. Whether you could write about the experiences of taking drugs without personal experience is an open question.I have never read convincing prose about being high that was written by someone who had not used drugs,
but I may someday.

OK, since you dare me, where is Arthur Golden. I don't think that he wrote convincingly from the point of view of a Chinese woman of some pst time. Quite honestly I don't think that any man has ever completely captured the experience of being a woman, and no woman whose prose I have read ever captured what it is to be a man.

I suppose that the whole matter is about how much a reader is willing to suspend disbelief. Someone who wants something that is right next to reality will expect one thing, while others will be willing to settle for something that speaks about the matter at hand.

[CaroGirl]

It's OK. You don't have to take drugs, if you don't want to. Whether you could write about the experiences of taking drugs without personal experience is an open question.I have never read convincing prose about being high that was written by someone who had not used drugs,
but I may someday.

OK, since you dare me, where is Arthur Golden. I don't think that he wrote convincingly from the point of view of a Chinese woman of some pst time. Quite honestly I don't think that any man has ever completely captured the experience of being a woman, and no woman whose prose I have read ever captured what it is to be a man.

I suppose that the whole matter is about how much a reader is willing to suspend disbelief. Someone who wants something that is right next to reality will expect one thing, while others will be willing to settle for something that speaks about the matter at hand.
Ah, but we approach it with the perspective of knowing the author was a man writing a woman character, or vice versa. Would you have read Memoirs of a Geisha differently if you hadn't known it was written by a man? I got completely immersed in this wonderful novel (matter of opinion, I know) and I was completely convinced by all the female characters. What about P.D. James? Is Dalgliesh (for example) less convincing when you discover the writer is a woman? Was he always written unconvincingly? Or is he a great male character no matter what the "PD" stands for, or JK or what have you?

I absolutely believe plenty of men have written convincing female characters and vice versa. It depends on what you know about a story while you're reading it that can colour your perception of it. Plus, everyone's experience is different. When I smoked pot this happened to me, but when you smoked it, something else happened to you. Does that mean my scene about pot smoking suddenly won't be convincing to you, whether you know I've smoked before or not?

In this case, it's only suspension of disbelief when you have a disbelief to suspend.

I hope I'm expressing myself clearly, but the gist is: I think you're wrong.

[PeterL]

Ah, but we approach it with the perspective of knowing the author was a man writing a woman character, or vice versa. Would you have read Memoirs of a Geisha differently if you hadn't known it was written by a man? I got completely immersed in this wonderful novel (matter of opinion, I know) and I was completely convinced by all the female characters. What about P.D. James? Is Dalgliesh (for example) less convincing when you discover the writer is a woman? Was he always written unconvincingly? Or is he a great male character no matter what the "PD" stands for, or JK or what have you?

Since geishas were traditionally both men and women, I don't believe that the sex of the author of a memoir of a geisha would not be significant. I once started a novel by Phyllis Dorothy James, but i quickly learned that I did not like the slow, overly descriptive style.

I absolutely believe plenty of men have written convincing female characters and vice versa. It depends on what you know about a story while you're reading it that can colour your perception of it. Plus, everyone's experience is different. When I smoked pot this happened to me, but when you smoked it, something else happened to you. Does that mean my scene about pot smoking suddenly won't be convincing to you, whether you know I've smoked before or not?

In this case, it's only suspension of disbelief when you have a disbelief to suspend.

While it is possible that a few men have done female characters, and that a few female writers have captured some male characters well, but I can't think of any.

You may be right in some cases about someone describing drug experiences. I haven't read anything in quite a long time in which drugs were a significant part of the story. More often the use of drugs or alcohol are peripheral to the plot, so the details are not important.

I hope I'm expressing myself clearly, but the gist is: I think you're wrong.

I think that you meant to write that you think that you disagree with me.

[CaroGirl]

I think that you meant to write that you think that you disagree with me.
Um, no. I know I disagree with you because I think you're wrong.

I also think you missed the point of some of my arguments making this cyclical and pointless. So... Caro, OUT!

[RJK]

Larry Niven wrote from a two-headed, three-legged Puppeteer's POV. I've yet to hear a Puppeteer say he didn't grasp their essence.

[kuwisdelu]

Larry Niven wrote from a two-headed, three-legged Puppeteer's POV. I've yet to hear a Puppeteer say he didn't grasp their essence.

How many of them have two heads and three legs?

[Rowan]

Are you seriously claiming that all who use drugs are addicts? That it's simply a question of them being in denial or not? That is what you are implying.

FYI, LSD isn't addictive.

edit: On topic. I suggest reading Alice in Wonderland. It doesn't get more tripy than that.

Where in my statement did I imply/suggest that all drug users are "addicts"? I said that most LE/medical professionals come across many individuals who don't believe they have a problem. Having said that....IMHO, you don't just sit down and shoot up because you're bored. You don't take that sort of risk just because you've got nothing better to do... then again, maybe you do. :Shrug:

I'm just speaking from personal experience here (and from the other side of the fence)--and I'm not going to go into detail because for the most part I can't. I've seen shit that I'd rather just forget and erase from my memory. But by all means, go ahead and drop acid if you so desire. Inject yourself full of heroin or snort some lines of cocaine. It's your body and it's your life.

It's my opinion that suggesting someone else do it as "research" is misguided and irresponsible (as would be suggesting someone go down a bottle of wine or a fifth of Jack). Once again and for the record, that's just my personal opinion. Like I said, I've seen what drugs do to people who "weren't addicted" or who could "quit at any time". It's not pretty. But I'm not here to change your mind and I frankly don't care what you do. You can sing about LSD and your love of it from the rooftops--I for one will not be convinced it's just harmless recreational fun--but please don't suggest that someone just drop some acid so they can write a better book.

Back to the original OP: you don't need to physically do drugs to write about it. There are plenty of people in this world who can describe their experiences for you.

Cheers!

Posted by Ben Bradley: That's a common, virtually universal belief among those in the alcohol-and-drug treatment industry. Alcohol is believed to be unique in that only some people get addicted to it.
For the record, I'm NOT in the "alcohol-and-drug" treatment industry....

[Rowan]

That doesn't change the fact that it's likely those professions have a negative view of drugs. I mean, just taking your own post as an example, not everyone who does drugs has a problem with them.

If the writer doesn't want to do the drug in question himself, I'd suggest the best course of research would be to talk to current users, not ex-users or people who only work with users but aren't users themselves. It will give a much clearer, less biased description of the experiences.

Bolding is mine.

And they (we) have a negative imrpession for a damned good reason. Just step back for a moment and ask yourself "why".

And that's what I suggested--the OP can find a myriad of individuals to talk to without resorting to risking his own life/health by ingesting/snorting/injecting drugs. It's simple.

ETA: I'm out of this debate. It's a no-win situation and I'm not going to enter into pointless arguments wherein I'm forced to defend my personal opinions and views, etc. I've stated my point--that one doesn't have to resort to doing drugs or anything reckless--to write a novel. That's it and I'm done.

[dolores haze]

So if I'm trying to write from the POV of someone who is stoned or tripping on acid, what could I do to make my writing more authentic...bar actually getting stoned or dropping acid myself? Heh.

Read stories/books that are about/by drug users? Or watch movies/documentaries about the same?

[Libbie]

sorry to wiener the place up, but Arthur Golden wrote about a JAPANESE woman living around the time of World War II. And he did it very well, I thought. I had no problem believing in his female character from a culture that was not his own.

[backslashbaby]

It's funny about drugs that folks 'know' this or that, and others
'know' that those things aren't true. It can be very cliquish, I've found.

I've experienced all kinds of tales about drugs, so I generally believe all of you ;)

I'll never agree that they are perfectly safe, or that no trippers shriek at monsters that I can't see. One friend broke his arm, one broke both legs jumping off roofs (on acid, actually), and others you'd never know they used and they were always perfectly happy with things.

It's very variable, imho, but folks will disbelieve you any way you do it ;)

Personally, I don't see how people can veg out and not say a word on pot, for instance; all I do is talk and eat :D But others get quiet. There are generally true things, but if you are looking for 'the way', just know there is a lot of variability with all of it.

[kuwisdelu]

Bolding is mine.

And they (we) have a negative imrpession for a damned good reason. Just step back for a moment and ask yourself "why".

Because they tend to deal with those who were harmed by it. That's obvious. Similarly, someone whose close friend or relative was an alcoholic will tend to have a biased view of alcohol. Most things are harmful in excess, and many leisure activities carry some degree of risk. Drugs are no different.

Drugs are neither good nor bad. They are merely substances, to which many people react differently, both positively and negatively.

And that's what I suggested--the OP can find a myriad of individuals to talk to without resorting to risking his own life/health by ingesting/snorting/injecting drugs. It's simple.

And what I pointed out is talking to someone who has an agenda (as many of those people do) will give a biased report.

[kuwisdelu]

I'll never agree that they are perfectly safe, or that no trippers shriek at monsters that I can't see. One friend broke his arm, one broke both legs jumping off roofs (on acid, actually), and others you'd never know they used and they were always perfectly happy with things.

I have a friend who was shot while on hallucinogens.

Fortunately, we figured out later it was an imaginary bullet.

Ironically, this was actually a good trip. She had a lot of fun poking her finger through the imagined bullet hole and feeling around "inside."

[PGK]

Personally, I don't see how people can veg out and not say a word on pot, for instance; all I do is talk and eat :D But others get quiet.

In my days I got quiet. Not lazy or sluggish or any of that, just quiet. I'd close up into my own little world hating every second of it and wishing it was over.
My in-laws smoke all the time. They start their day with a joint, have one on their lunch break, one when they get home, one after dinner, and a last one before bed. They are also some of the most hard working people I've ever met in my life.

When I was younger I tried LSD on several occasions. All but one were duds (I don't know if I was scammed with the rest or if they had been spoiled or what, but I felt nothing). The one time it did work I started to panic because I became convinced my internal organs had detached from my body and were free-floating inside me.

But I did know of one guy who went to London clean and sober and came back after a year of hardcore tripping. He showed up one day completely shaved (I mean everything. Eyebrows, hair on head, legs, arms, chest . . . everything). He spent the night walking up to people and asking them if they would like to ski on his body.