Dialogue tags...

[Jabberwokky]

I was reading another thread, seen here (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=177739), and it brought to mind another problem I was having with writing dialogue.

Firstly, I am the type that uses a lot of speaker tags. It's not that I avoid the word "said" so much that you'll only see it twice on a page, but I have never really liked books that used nothing but "and then he said...and then she said... and that's when he said..." It bores me, and I actually notice it more than the "saidisms" that are often used.

Anyway, back to the problems. I have two with dialogues, the first is that I use a lot of dialogue and sometimes one character would end one sentence with a quote, and the next would begin with one. It makes for a very messy scene. The way I've been trying to avoid having this happen, is by commenting on what's going on in the scene between pauses. But in the end it sounds like rubbish because there are a million comments about trivial things.

Also, I tend to brake up my dialogue. Like for example, instead of writing

"Hello Brandy. It's a pleasure to finally meet you. I've heard ever so much about you," said Thom, smiling as he looked at her.

I would write:
"Hello Brandy, it's a pleasure to finally meet you," Thom said, smiling as he looked at her, "I've heard ever so much about you."

I was just curious to know if people find this way of writing too tiring to read. I've heard it's to be avoided when possible.

[Birol]

Inserting dialogue tags and description between the dialogue is part of rhythm and pacing. If it helps create the flow that you're going for, it's perfectly fine.

[Matera the Mad]

It's best to use a tag early on, not let a long sentence or two go by without identifying the speaker (when that is necessary). So your break can hold its head up high.

[gmglenn13]

Everyone writes differently. I would suggest to look at how your favorite authors use dialog tags and go from there. Someone Like Robert Parker doesn't use them much at all, while Stephen King uses them all the time. The main thing you're trying to create with dialog is rhythm and clarity. Your two samples are both right. Even though with this sample "Hello Brandy. It's a pleasure to finally meet you. I've heard ever so much about you," said Thom, smiling as he looked at her.

You probably want to change that to something more like "Hello, Brandy," Thom said. "It's a pleasure to finally meet you. I've heard ever so much about you."
Putting the tag closer to the front lets the reader know right away who's talking. Again for clarity sake. As for the split infinitive (insert smiley face here), most people talk with split infinitives. Hope this helps.

[shadowwalker]

I don't have a problem with dialogue being broken up, as long as it's done in a place that makes sense, both pace-wise and thought-wise - in other words, the break has to make sense for the context. The other thing to remember is, like everything else, not to over-do. When the use of the technique is noticed more than what's being said, you need to re-evaluate. ;)

[Danthia]

It all depends on the scene and who's talking when and how many people. If you have a conversation between two people, tagging at the end works fine because there's a back and forth that's easy to follow. The reader can keep up with only a minimum of tagging to remind them who is who.

If you have more than two speakers, it gets more complicated. Add in a new speaker during another speaker's "turn" and you usually want to tag quickly to show that a third speaker had joined and it hasn't gone back to speaker two as expected. Readers should know a third speaker has come in before they start speaking, or soon after.

And then there's the rhythm of the words to consider. Sometimes it just sounds better to tag in the middle of the dialog. Or you want a sense of a pause between phrases.

Any tag done too often in a row is going to get tedious no matter what it is. Mixing it up is what makes it read well.

As for "tiring" writing...

I personally find the speak-move-speak-move-speak-move sections annoying because they slow things down and make it read clunky. As is: "Wow, look at that," Bob said, running to the window, "It's like--" he pushed aside the curtains. "I don't know, something's lumbering toward us." He turned back and shrugged. "Could be a zombie."

In your example, I'd write it: "Hello Brandy, it's a pleasure to finally meet you," Thom said, smiling. "I've heard ever so much about you." (I'd cut the "as he looked at her" to smooth it over, because he's talking to her, so we can assume he's looking at her. That tightens the sentence and leaves fewer words between the dialog)

[bonitakale]

I think Danthia's rewriting of your bit is an improvement, in that the specifically looking part is left out, but I didn't mind the way you had it, either. (You would only have to mention it if he didn't look at her for some reason.)

I can see that your punctuation could get messy with all those quotes, but the stuff you put in doesn't have to be trivial. And it doesn't have to be in the middle of the quote, either.

"Hello Brandy, it's a pleasure to finally meet you. I've heard so much about you." Thom smiled a toothpaste-ad smile, but his eyes were very cold.

or

"Hello Brandy, it's a pleasure to finally meet you. I've heard so much about you."

So this was Thom. About five feet five and two hundred pounds, with basset-hound eyes. She liked him immediately

[Chris P]

I would write:
"Hello Brandy, it's a pleasure to finally meet you," Thom said, smiling as he looked at her, "I've heard ever so much about you."


You write a lot like I do. I like the saidisms (yes, I'm saidistic!), and I like combining action with the tag.

However, I'm finding it works better to say:

"Hello Brandy, it's a pleasure to finally meet you." Thom smiled as he looked at her. "I've heard ever so much about you."

It gets rid of the "saids," it's still clear who's talking, and shows the action. Dunno what others think, but this idea has appealed to me lately.

ETA: Reading the other comments, I agree that the prep phrase "as he looked at her" can be nuked; it's redundant. That's another way you write like I do!

[Jamesaritchie]

If you want to avoid an intrusive dialogue tag, I'd suggest putting t action before the dialogue as in:

Tom Smiled. "Hello Brandy. It's a pleasure to finally meet you. I've heard ever so much about you."

If you want to break up the dialogue, "said" is more than enough. I find it very tiring when a writer constantly adds unnecessary actions after "said."

If books bore you that use only said, then there's either a serious problem with the dialogue itself, or you're paying far too much attention to things you shouldn't even be noticing.

[Bufty]

I think the smile should come first anyway, unless for some story reason Tom deliberately chooses not to smile at her before speaking. Dialogue can be interpreted differently depending on the speaker's attitude or mannerism, or lack of it.

There may be the odd exception, but if dialogue is related to an action, placing the action before the relative dialogue usually makes for a better flow.

If you want to avoid an intrusive dialogue tag, I'd suggest putting t action before the dialogue as in:

Tom Smiled. "Hello Brandy. It's a pleasure to finally meet you. I've heard ever so much about you."

If you want to break up the dialogue, "said" is more than enough. I find it very tiring when a writer constantly adds unnecessary actions after "said."

If books bore you that use only said, then there's either a serious problem with the dialogue itself, or you're paying far too much attention to things you shouldn't even be noticing.

[Tracy]

Point of order.

You really, really shouldn't say:
"Hello, Brandy," Thom smiled. "It's a pleasure to finally meet you; I've heard so many good things about you."

as people cannot smile dialogue. They can say it, and then smile. :) (http://www.fiction-writers-mentor.com/novel-writing-software.html)

I do agree though that the OP's phrasing needs a bit of work.

You can definitely take out 'as he looked at her' as it's understood.

[Aggy B.]

I have to admit I loathe dialogue tags other than "said" (or the occasional "muttered"). I myself tend to use action as a tag to indicate who's talking.

"This is the thing you've been so secretive about?" Randall tossed the orb from one hand to the other.

"Don't." Geraldine twitched, fighting the urge to try and snatch it back before he broke it.

Etc. Of course, I wouldn't use action with every line of dialogue. And sometimes I would use a Randall said. Otherwise, I like to break my dialogue with relevant actions when it seems to be getting too long.

[Aggy B.]

Firstly, I am the type that uses a lot of speaker tags. It's not that I avoid the word "said" so much that you'll only see it twice on a page, but I have never really liked books that used nothing but "and then he said...and then she said... and that's when he said..." It bores me, and I actually notice it more than the "saidisms" that are often used.


I would also like to point out that using "said" in that kind of sentence construction is pretty terrible. "And" and "Then" are two words that should almost never come side by side. Also, saying "and then she said" in a book would put massive distance between me (as a reader) and the story.

[SWest]

Anyway, back to the problems. I have two with dialogues, the first is that I use a lot of dialogue and sometimes one character would end one sentence with a quote, and the next would begin with one. It makes for a very messy scene. The way I've been trying to avoid having this happen, is by commenting on what's going on in the scene between pauses. But in the end it sounds like rubbish because there are a million comments about trivial things.


You might want to pick up some Jeffery Deaver titles...he uses dialogue to move his plots forward, and is able to accomplish this with minimal tagging. Even when multiple speakers are involved in scenes. You may not be as "messy" as you think you are!

Everything does not have to be moving at all times; the Viewing Mind is always screening out features of the environment. You do not hear, see, feel, smell, taste, experience everything that is going on around you.

An author does not have to update everyone's movements in order for me to gain a full understanding of what is happening. Writing that gives too much detail of this type feels unnatural because it is unnatural.

Cut the phrases that do not serve your plot. You may not always know which movements and tags these are early on. This is what review-and-rewrite sessions are for.

[blacbird]

You might want to pick up some Jeffery Deaver titles...he uses dialogue to move his plots forward, and is able to accomplish this with minimal tagging.

Two observations:

1. Most inexperienced writers use way too many dialogue attributions.

2. Most inexperienced writers do not pay close enough attention to how really good narrative writers handle dialogue.

caw

[Jamesaritchie]

I would also like to point out that using "said" in that kind of sentence construction is pretty terrible. "And" and "Then" are two words that should almost never come side by side. Also, saying "and then she said" in a book would put massive distance between me (as a reader) and the story.

I actually wish more writers would put the words "and" and "then" side by side, rather than dropping the "and" when grammar says it should be there.

[Aggy B.]

I actually wish more writers would put the words "and" and "then" side by side, rather than dropping the "and" when grammar says it should be there.

Hmm. Well, I suck at explaining grammar. I do know that my stuff reads better when I take out the "and" and replace it with ",". Otherwise it gets to sounding redundant. To me, anyway.

However. I'm one of those "obnoxious" writers who likes to replace the "and" with a "," to speed up my pacing. Taking out the "and" in "and then" seemed a logical move for me.


He shoved his arms into his coat, grabbed his keys. "Come on. There's not much time."

Sarah took a last look at the living room, then struck a match and dropped it into the wastebasket. Good-bye, lazy summer afternoons. Good-bye, Gram.

But I could be wrong in that approach. I only do what seems to work for my novels.

[Chris P]

I actually wish more writers would put the words "and" and "then" side by side, rather than dropping the "and" when grammar says it should be there.

Perhaps this isn't what James was saying, but "and then" is a perfectly useful construction when used properly. If the order of three actions is important then it is needed.

"Bob had a lot to do that day. He needed to pick up his paycheck, cash it, and then fork over a good portion of it to the ex. He hated it, but the alternative was jail."

[Aggy B.]

Perhaps this isn't what James was saying, but "and then" is a perfectly useful construction when used properly. If the order of three actions is important then it is needed.

"Bob had a lot to do that day. He needed to pick up his paycheck, cash it, and then fork over a good portion of it to the ex. He hated it, but the alternative was jail."

That may be true. I just see "and then" overused in the worst possible way. The OP's example of what he hated all had "and then he/she said" which is a lousy sentence construction the vast majority of the time. Which prompted me to point out that "and" and "then" should ALMOST never be used next to each other.

There are instances where it is the proper construction. Frequently it is not.

[Chris P]

There are instances where it is the proper construction. Frequently it is not.

Agreed. Any tool can be used improperly.

[hannah_92]

[QUOTE=Jabberwokky;4878401]I would write:
"Hello Brandy, it's a pleasure to finally meet you," Thom said, smiling as he looked at her, "I've heard ever so much about you."[QUOTE]

I would also use this. I find that it breaks my writing up from being one continual sentece and makes it flow better. I prefer to read these rather than the "he said, she said" that some writers use all the time in their work. Not that I've got anything against that at all and I do use it occasionally but I break it up with the above.

[dpaterso]

Yup, if the identity of whoever's speaking isn't clear -- either insert a dialogue tag (using a verb associated with speaking), or marry the dialogue with action that identifies the speaking character. I see this in novels all the time.

-Derek

[Bufty]

You see that in novels all the time?

You're kidding -right?

You can not be serious! :evil

Yup, if the identity of whoever's speaking isn't clear -- either insert a dialogue tag (using a verb associated with speaking), or marry the dialogue with action that identifies the speaking character. I see this in novels all the time.

-Derek

[Jabberwokky]

As is: "Wow, look at that," Bob said, running to the window, "It's like--" he pushed aside the curtains. "I don't know, something's lumbering toward us." He turned back and shrugged. "Could be a zombie."


Well, after looking at this, I can see what you mean by "clunky" writing. I have to admit, though I'm not nearly that bad, my writing can sound awkward like this.

It seems that a lot of people agree that I need to do some trimming on my needless descriptions. After seeing the examples and the way it flows better, I do agree. I'll have to look out for that kind of thing in my next revision.

Thanks guys!