Plane carrying Polish president crashes

[aruna]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/8612825.stm

A plane carrying Polish President Lech Kaczynski has crashed near a Russian airport, officials say.
Russian media reported that 87 people were killed in the crash, but it is not yet known if anyone survived.
The plane was reportedly heading to an airport in the western city of Smolensk when it crashed.

[Zoombie]

Oh no...

[Dommo]

Hopefully they've got a clear line of political succession. The last thing the poles need, is for there to be a government in total chaos after an event like this.

[leahzero]

Read about this earlier. Depressing.

That footage of the wreckage is deeply eerie. All that broken, burned machinery sprawling in the middle of a stark wood hung with mist...it looks like a film.

Airplane crashes are so sad. Best wishes to the Polish people.

[beezle]

132 dead, I read, including 87 members of an official delegation plus family members.

Here's a list of some of that delegation I pulled from the net.



Mr. Lech Kaczynski, Polish President

Mrs. Maria Kaczynska wife of Polish President

OFFICIAL DELEGATION

1. Mr Ryszard Kaczorowski, former president of Poland in Exile
2. Mr. Krzysztof Putra Sejm Marshal
3. Mr. Jerzy Szmajdzinski Sejm Marshal
4. Krystyna Bochenek Deputy Senate
5. BAHR Jerzy Ambassador of the Russian Federation
6. Mr. Wladyslaw STASIAK Chief Presidential Chancellery
7. Mr. Aleksander Szczyglo Head of National Security
8. Mr. Jacek Sasin Secretary of State, Deputy Head of the Presidential Chancellery
9. Mr. Paul WYPYCH Secretary of State in the President's Chancellery
10. Mariusz Handzlik Undersecretary of State in the Chancellery of the President
11. Mr. Andrzej Kremer, Undersecretary of State for Foreign Affairs
12. Mr. Stanislaw Komorowski, Undersecretary of State in the Defence
13. Mr. Tomasz Merta Undersecretary of State in the Ministry of Culture
14. Gen. Francis Gagor Chief of General Staff of Polish Army
15. Mr Andrew CARRIER Secretary ROPWiM
16. Mr. Maciej Plazynski President of the Association "Polish Community"
17. Mariusz KAZANA MFA Diplomatic Protocol Director


PARLIAMENT REPRESENTATIVES RP

1. Mr. Leszek Deptula deputy to the Sejm
2. Mr. Gregory Dolniak deputy to the Sejm
3. Ms. Grazyna Gesicka deputy to the Sejm
4. Mr. Przemyslaw Gosiewski deputy to the Sejm
5. Mr. Sebastian KARPINIUK deputy to the Sejm
6. Ms. Izabela Jaruga - Nowacka Member of Parliament of the Republic of Poland
7. Mr. Zbigniew Wassermann deputy to the Sejm
8. Ms. Alexander Natallia - WORLD Member of the Sejm
10. Mr. Arkadiusz Rybicki deputy to the Sejm
11. Jolanta Szymanek - Deresz Member of the Sejm
12. Wieslaw WATER deputy to the Sejm
13. Mr. Edward Wojtas deputy to the Sejm
14. Janina FETLINSKA Senator RP
15. Mr. Stanislaw ZAJAC Senator RP


ACCOMPANYING PERSONS


1. Mr. Janusz Kochanowski Ombudsman Citizen Laws
2. Mr Skawomir Skrzypek, President of the Polish National Bank
3. Janusz Kurtyka President of the Institute of National Remembrance
4. Janusz Krupski Director of the Office for War Veterans and Repressed Persons


REPRESENTATIVES Churches and Religious Affairs

1. Tadeusz Ploski Ordinary of the Polish Army
2. Miron Chodakowski Orthodox Ordinary Polish Army
3. Adam PILCH Ewangelickie Duszpasterstwo Polowe
4. Col. Adam Pilch Evangelical Chaplaincy
5. Lt. Col. John OSINSKI Ordinariate of the Polish Army


Katyn Families REPRESENTATIVES AND OTHER ASSOCIATIONS

1. Mr. Edward Duchnowski Secretary General of Association of Siberian Deportees
2. Ks. Fr. Monsignor Bronislaw Gostomski
3. Ks. Fr. Parafiada Association President Joseph Joniec Parafiada
4. Ks. Fr. Zdzislaw KING Chaplain Warsaw Katyn Families 1987-2007
5. Ks. Fr. Chaplain Andrew Kwasnik Federation of Katyn Families
6. Pan Tadeusz LUTOBORSKI
7. Bozena Lojek President of the Polish Foundation for Katyn
8. Mr. Stefan Melaka Katyn Committee Chairman
9. Mr. Stanislaw Mikke Vice ROPWiM
10. Mrs. Bronislaw Orawiec - Löffler
11. Ms. Catherine Piskorska
12. Mr Andrew SARIUSZ - SKAPSKI President Federation of Katyn Families
13. Mr Wojciech SEWERYN
14. Mr. Leszek Solski
15. Ms. Teresa Walewska - PRZYJALKOWSKA Foundation "Golgotha of the East"
16. Ms. Gabriela Zych
17. Ewa Bakowska granddaughter of Brig. Mieczyslaw Smorawinski
18. Mrs. Maria Borowska
19. Mr. Bartosz BOROWSKI
20. Mr. Dariusz MALINOWSKI


REPRESENTATIVES OF THE ARMED FORCES RP

1. Gen. Gen. Bronislaw KWIATKOWSKI Operational Commander of Polish Armed Forces
2. Gen. broni pil. Gen. pil. Andrew Blasik Polish Air Force Commander
3. Gen. dyw. Maj.-Gen. Tadeusz BUK Commander of Land Forces of Poland
4. Gen. dyw. Maj.-Gen. Wlodzimierz POTASINSKI Polish Special Forces Commander
5. Andrzej KARWETA Dowódca Marynarki Wojennej RP Vice Admiral Andrzej Karweta Commander Navy
6. Gen. bryg. Brig. Kazimierz GILARSKI Commander Training Centre Warsaw

[Gretad08]

RIP to you all.

[KTC]

Oh my god! That list is scary. Who's going to run Poland! That is so terrible. Terrible that they died...and terrible for the country. What will they do now? RIP to all.

[regdog]

:(

[Priene]

Can't say I'll miss the old bigot (http://www.bigqueer.com/index.php?/plugin/tag/lech+kaczynski). What on earth were the Poles thinking of, allowing so many important officials to fly on the same plane?

[Kateness]

Eh, at least it *appears* that the Polish government won't immediately collapse.

The deaths were not expected to directly affect the functioning of Polish government: Poland's president is commander in chief of its armed forces but the position's domestic duties are chiefly symbolic. The prime minister and other top government ministers were not aboard the plane.

However, the constitution says the parliament speaker, who takes on the duties of president, must announce early elections within 14 days of the president's death.

The vote must be held within another 60 days. This means Poland will be holding early presidential elections before June 20.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100410/ap_on_re_eu/eu_russia_plane_crash

[emilycross]

God, this is so terrible. RIP to all of them.


A new presidential election date must be announced within two weeks and an election held within the following two months.

"In line with the constitution, we will have to hold an early presidential poll," government spokesman Pawel Gras said.

"For now, the speaker of the lower house of parliament, Bronislaw Komorowski, is automatically... the acting president."


Sky News (http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Polish-President-Lech-Kaczynski-Killed-When-Plane-Crashed-On-Approach-To-Smolensk-Airport-In-Russia/Article/201004215598482?lpos=World_News_Carousel_Region_0&lid=ARTICLE_15598482_Polish_President_Lech_Kaczyns ki_Killed_When_Plane_Crashed_On_Approach_To_Smolen sk_Airport_In_Russia)

[icerose]

Terrible time for them.

At the same time the conspiracy part of my brain is saying, "What are the chances this wasn't just an accident?"

[Kateness]

I think the irony is too fantastic for it to be deliberate.

[Romantic Heretic]

So sad. Vaya con Dios.

Icerose? I wondered about that for a second as well. ;)

[seun]

What on earth were the Poles thinking of, allowing so many important officials to fly on the same plane?

I wondered the same thing. In any case, it's some very sad news.

[Fenika]

:cry:

My mom told me a similar issue happened before but the pilot refused to land and was fired. This is bad.

[SaraP]

Crazy crazy thing to happen.

[robeiae]

What on earth were the Poles thinking of, allowing so many important officials to fly on the same plane?
Especially considering the military contingent.

Very sad.

[Fenika]

http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/europe/04/10/poland.president.plane.crash.analysis/index.html

[veinglory]

R.I.P. -- very sad.

[AncientEagle]

Terrible time for them.

At the same time the conspiracy part of my brain is saying, "What are the chances this wasn't just an accident?"

Always a possibility, but the plane was an old, Russian aircraft that had a history of problems. Reportedly, this actual plane itself had recently had mechanical problems. Add to that the fact that the pilot was warned not to land but tried to anyway, without clearance, and it sounds like some really bad judgment calls instead of conspiracy.

[veinglory]

Human error is the most common explanation, or more specifically a combnations of small errors by many people. But it seems to me that some time should be given just to recognise the loss and leave the investigation to those with access to the facts.

[Noah Body]

It will be interesting to review the accident data as Europe's investigative body releases it. Tree strikes in fog generally indicate the pilot did not initiate the missed approach procedure, since it seems he never saw the runway, or lost sight of it while on approach and didn't go around. I see Poland is a member of the JAA.

Sad day for Poland, and my God, what a casualty list, from the government perspective.

[Plot Device]

Most nations will arrange for flights with MULTIPLE air planes carrying key people separately so that in the event of an accidental crash (or a deliberate aerial attack) at least some key members will survive.

They were ALL on that one plane together??

[Fenika]

And the LA Times (http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/asia/la-fg-polish-president-crash11-2010apr11,0,7967591,full.story).

In an address shortly after the crash, Russian President Dmitry Medvedev was careful to emphasize recent improvements in relations between the two countries.

"These days we conducted memorial events in Katyn together grieving over the victims of totalitarian times," Medvedev said. "All Russians share your grief and mourning."

Earlier in the week, Prime Minister Tusk traveled to Katyn to commemorate the 70th anniversary of the massacre. In what was regarded as a turning point in the two countries' often frosty relations, Russian Prime Minister Vladimir V. Putin also attended the ceremony.

I hope something good comes of this tragedy.

[dgiharris]

Does anyone know if the Poles have a plane that is specifically the 'President's plane'? You know, an equivalent to the US's Air Force One?

In fact, do most countries have a special plane for their President or is this just a US thing?

I also wonder why protocol wasn't followed in this flight. The thought of so many high level officials on one plane just seems so wrong to me.

Of course, it's not beyond the realm of possibility that the leadership choose to ignore protocol rather than suffern any inconvenience. That happens all the time, that is, important people thinking they are an exception to a rule.

I'm just speculating, I have no idea what happened.

In any event, it is an unfortunate tragedy.

Mel...

[Fenika]

Again, from the LA Times (others are saying the same thing)

As the presidential plane, a 26-year-old Tupolev, winged toward the western Russian city of Smolensk on Saturday morning, thick cords of fog wrapped the city. On the ground, air traffic controllers urged the crew to land either in Minsk, the capital of Belarus, or in Moscow rather than risk navigating the fog, Russian officials said.

But time was pressing. The crew decided to risk the landing, and ignored instructions from the air traffic controllers, the Russian air force said.

"The Polish presidential plane did not make it to the runway while landing," Smolensk region Gov. Sergei Anufriyev told reporters. "Tentative findings indicate that it hit the treetops and fell apart. Nobody has survived the disaster."

So yes, it was the presidential plane. Apparently the entire government fleet is overdue for replacement and now it looks like it will happen, finally :(

Was it simply determination to arrive at the event that caused them to try and land or was their more to it? I don't know that we'll know. They attempted 3 or 4 times to land, which says to me they weren't completely rushing to touch down, but even so...

Anyways, I'm not wanting to discuss that aspect of this morning's tragedy. I'm just providing the information for those not reading as widely.

The real question is, where do we go from here? Not just Poland, but the world?

[Plot Device]

I don't know about the planes of the present-day Polish government. But ...........





When I was 20 years old (back in the year 1986 when Poland was still under Soviet domination, and when the Soviet Union still existed) I worked in a supermarket with a very young guy named Jack Los who was just off the boat plane from Poland (he defected to America with his very life). That was NOT his real name. He picked the name Jack because when he was learning English he read a lot of fairy tales and the name Jack kept popping up repeatedy, so he assumed it was a common name. And he picked Los because of the city of Los Angeles where he really wanted very deeply to live one day. He refused to tell me his real (Polish) name because he said he waned to leave all of Poland behind him and fully embrace his new life and new identity as an American.

Anyway ......


He told me that the airlines in Poland (at the time, back in the early 1980's, so I don't know about today) were TERRIBLE! He said that all the planes found in the Polish fleet were the broken down rejects tossed off to them by the Soviet airline -- like scraps from the dinner table tossed to the dogs. And that's not saying much since the Soviet planes were substandard to begin with. Jack said you took your life into your hands when you flew on a Polish plane, recalling for me flights he took where the engines would all cut out for eight to ten seconds at a time, or the lights would flicker on and off repeatedly, the heat wasn't working, etc. He added that the Polish air plane mechanics were very mediocre, and that in all of Poland if you were REALLY good at anything you did (such as being a mechanic) you got tapped by the Soviets to relocate to Russia and work there instead. So whenever the rare occurance of a truly sklled aviation mechanic arose in Poland, he didn't remain in Polnd very long. Jack also said that because of the poor conditions of the planes, and the inadequate mechanical maintenance they got, crashes were routine in Polish aviation back then, and yet he stipulated that the West never heard about any of those (frequent!) crashes UNLESS there was a Westerner on board.


I'm sure many things have chnaged since Jack defected from Poland back in the 1980's. But I thought I'd toss that little recollection of mine on the table for everyone.

[dgiharris]

As the presidential plane, a 26-year-old Tupolev, winged toward the western Russian city of Smolensk on Saturday morning, thick cords of fog wrapped the city. On the ground, air traffic controllers urged the crew to land either in Minsk, the capital of Belarus, or in Moscow rather than risk navigating the fog, Russian officials said.

But time was pressing. The crew decided to risk the landing, and ignored instructions from the air traffic controllers, the Russian air force said.

"The Polish presidential plane did not make it to the runway while landing," Smolensk region Gov. Sergei Anufriyev told reporters. "Tentative findings indicate that it hit the treetops and fell apart. Nobody has survived the disaster."

Wow, this is more or less along the lines of were I was going in my previous post.

I find that whenever you have a disaster, whether it be commercial, business, military, etc., ego is often a huge part of the problem.

Landing while being unable to see the ground IS NOT trivial. Seriously, it is not. Landing a plane is the most dangerous aspect of flying.

"Risking" and landing when you can't see the ground is so irresponsible that no pilot I know of would ever do it without the blessing of the tower. It takes sophisticated equipment both aboard the plane, the Air Traffic Control Tower, and runway to attempt it safely.

If Air Traffic Control advises a pilot NOT to land due to any condition, you simply MUST listen to them.

I know this is all just preliminary reports, but it amazes me how often people will prioritize 'being late' over 'safety'. It happens all that time.

Mel...

[eyeblink]

R.I.P. to all of them.

[veinglory]

The presidential plane was fully refurbished in 2006 and in good order. but I would suggest having a separate thread for attributing blame--it seems a bit harsh to go from remembrance to trying to work out which if them we think could be culpable.

[Plot Device]

The presidential plane was fully refurbished in 2006 and in good order. but I would suggest having a separate thread for attributing blame--it seems a bit harsh to go from remembrance to trying to work out which if them we think could be culpable.


Sorry. :(

RIP.

[Fenika]

From CNN:

Polish Prime Minister Donald Tusk and Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin appeared together in Smolensk on Saturday night.

I'm glad this did in deed happen, though I'd like more details. My aunt (in Czech) told me earlier they were afraid the weren't going to allow Tusk into Russia, but at that point I'd already heard Putin had already agreed to meet Tusk.

Again, I hope good comes of this. There's lots of talk of Kaczynski's vision worldwide...


ETA: A little more info, from the AP:

Polish Prime Minister Donald Tusk and some cabinet members flew to Smolensk from Warsaw. The president's twin brother, former Prime Minister Jaroslaw Kaczynski, headed to the area in a chartered plane along with party members.

Television showed Jaroslaw kneeling and praying at the crash site. Tusk, joined by Putin, placed a wreath at the site and knelt. When he stood up, Putin hugged him.

:(