UK General Election - May 6

[Shakesbear]

After months of speculation ...

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/6-may-election-battle-set-to-commence-1936532.html (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/6-may-election-battle-set-to-commence-1936532.html)

[Gregg]

Wish we could get away with a one month election campaign here in the good old US of A. The 18-24 month marathons we now have are annoying and tedious.

[Priene]

My prediction: hung Parliament, Tories to form the next government with the informal support of hatchet-faced Ulster Unionists.

[Shakesbear]

Whitehall have already made plans for a hung Parliament.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/feedarticle/9012393

Which is depressing as Brown could stay on as PM! blech!

I'm wondering if the thought of a hung Parliament might encourage more people to vote in the hope of averting a coalition government and also, hopefully, keeping some of the tackier elements of British politics out of Parliament.

[Priene]

Imagine this man

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/27/George_Osborne_0437.jpg/400px-George_Osborne_0437.jpg

walking into number eleven. The very thought has me playing Eton Rifles on rotation. Even though he never went there.

[dpaterso]

Gordon Brown prepares to call 6 May general election
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8603591.stm
Prime Minister Gordon Brown is preparing to announce that the general election will be held on 6 May.

Following a cabinet meeting, he will go to Buckingham Palace to ask the Queen to dissolve Parliament.

On returning from the Palace he will confirm the widely-predicted date and call the election "the big choice".

Conservative leader David Cameron said his party had the "big ideas" for the country while Lib Dem Nick Clegg said only his party offered "real change".

The economy, taxation and public services will be key battlegrounds.
Unfortunately, "dissolve Parliament" doesn't involve laser guns.

-Derek

[Shakesbear]

The phrases "big ideas" and "real change" fill me with foreboding as neither has any serious grasp on what the people of the country really need.

[seun]

The policies of the three main parties:

http://www.labour.org.uk/policies/home
http://www.conservatives.com/Policy.aspx
http://www.libdems.org.uk/what_we_stand_for.aspx

[JimmyB27]

Have you got a second link for each detailing what they'll actually do?

[seun]

Have you got a second link for each detailing what they'll actually do?

1. Lie.
2. Cheat.
3. Steal.
4. Repeat.

[Fran]

1. Lie.
2. Cheat.
3. Steal.
4. Repeat.

:ROFL:

I was watching the news last night and they were talking about canvassers knocking on people's doors. That has NEVER happened to me. Maybe because I've always lived in safe Labour seats so the parties don't bother their arses, but has anyone had it happen?

[JimmyB27]

:ROFL:

I was watching the news last night and they were talking about canvassers knocking on people's doors. That has NEVER happened to me. Maybe because I've always lived in safe Labour seats so the parties don't bother their arses, but has anyone had it happen?
There was a knock at my door the other day, which I didn't answer because I was still lounging in my dressing gown at 1pm, but it was followed by a party leaflet fluttering through the letterbox.

[Priene]

I've just seen Nick Clegg explaining the Liberal Democrat plans for reforming the winter fuel allowance to a group of Watford sixth-formers.

It's going to be a long month.

[seun]

:ROFL:

I was watching the news last night and they were talking about canvassers knocking on people's doors. That has NEVER happened to me. Maybe because I've always lived in safe Labour seats so the parties don't bother their arses, but has anyone had it happen?

The only people who knock on my door are the Godsquad. And of course, I'm just thrilled to see them.

[IdiotsRUs]

The only people who knock on my door are the Godsquad. And of course, I'm just thrilled to see them.

Ooh snap.

I've made a resolution - no news till it's over. Or I may snap and go all Hungerford on some poor unsuspecting local councillor going about his business...

[Fran]

I don't even get the Godsquad. Maybe people in safe Labour seats are heretics and damned to hell whatever happens. :D

[Shakesbear]

I used to get canvassers knocking on the door when I lived in London. The only difference between the canvassers was the colour of the rosette they wore. They were mainly patronising and - well, political!

Seun I like the list. Perfect job description for some MPs.

1. Lie.
2. Cheat.
3. Steal.
4. Repeat.

[HJW]

Imagine this man

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/27/George_Osborne_0437.jpg/400px-George_Osborne_0437.jpg

walking into number eleven. The very thought has me playing Eton Rifles on rotation. Even though he never went there.

Please do not post obscene pictures on the forum.

[Priene]

Gordon Brown was Chancellor for ten years. Georgy could be sneering at us until 2020. And then a stint as PM...


(Priene is experiencing deathly shudders)

[seun]

To be honest, it wouldn't surprise me if Labour won, again. Remember how everyone hated the Tories in the 80s and yet they kept winning? That was down at least partly to them not having any competition. Doesn't sound a million miles from where we are now.

[seun]

Imagine this man

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/27/George_Osborne_0437.jpg/400px-George_Osborne_0437.jpg

walking into number eleven. The very thought has me playing Eton Rifles on rotation. Even though he never went there.

Imagine his face contorted in the throes of sexual ecstasy.

Go on.

You can't, can you?

[Fran]

I had to laugh at Alex Salmond, in his customary weasel fashion, saying he wouldn't form a coalition with Labour or the Tories at Westminster. Who ASKED him exactly?! I doubt Gordon or Dave will be bowing and scraping in front of him, desperate to win his all-important favour and blessing. Get over yourself, man. He's like one of those people who jumps up and down behind people he doesn't know to try and get in their holiday photos.

[Fran]

Imagine his face contorted in the throes of sexual ecstasy.

Go on.

You can't, can you?

That made my legs clamp shut. I may never open them again. *throws up*

[Priene]

To be honest, it wouldn't surprise me if Labour won, again. Remember how everyone hated the Tories in the 80s and yet they kept winning? That was down at least partly to them not having any competition. Doesn't sound a million miles from where we are now.

Funnily enough, there is a 1992-ish feel in the air. Long-time government with new uncharismatic leader. Unconvincing opposition without a coherent programme. Five more years didn't do the Tories too much good, as it turned out.


Imagine his face contorted in the throes of sexual ecstasy.

Go on.

You can't, can you?

Kirstie Allsop poster on the ceiling, trousers folded neatly over the chaise longue, a big box of tissues to the side and the 1984 Tory Manifesto in his action-free hand. I see it all too clearly.

[Shakesbear]

One of the things I find so offensive about our present PM and his entourage is that they are just so dreary. They couldn't inspire a Christmas pudding to self combust.

[Priene]

One of the things I find so offensive about our present PM and his entourage is that they are just so dreary. They couldn't inspire a Christmas pudding to self combust.

Thatcher wasn't dreary. She was completely mental, though.

[Fran]

One of the things I find so offensive about our present PM and his entourage is that they are just so dreary. They couldn't inspire a Christmas pudding to self combust.

I wouldn't mind them being so dreary if any of them were halfway competent.

[Shakesbear]

Drearily incompetent! Thinking about them gives me an insight into why some people become religious.

"Always look on the bright side of life..."



The Baroness may have been mental - but at least she had style.

[Sophia]

I wouldn't mind "drearily incompetent" when compared to what we often have: frustrating, smug, enraging, self-serving, crony-serving incompetents.

Has anyone been following the news about the Digital Economy bill (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/8605648.stm)? Hubby wrote to our MP twice over it, once over Clause 34 that concerned him as a photographer, and then again about the whole cut-off-your-broadband-access-without-trial part for persistent content pirates. Do you have complete faith that your account will never be hacked; that your wireless connection is secure, and you won't end up ever being accused of something like that? I don't think MPs understand enough about the internet to debate the bill properly even if they did agree to "scrutinise" it, and generally find the whole thing terrifying.

[Fran]

I wouldn't mind "drearily incompetent" when compared to what we often have: frustrating, smug, enraging, self-serving, crony-serving incompetents.

Has anyone been following the news about the Digital Economy bill (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/8605648.stm)? Hubby wrote to our MP twice over it, once over Clause 34 that concerned him as a photographer, and then again about the whole cut-off-your-broadband-access-without-trial part for persistent content pirates. Do you have complete faith that your account will never be hacked; that your wireless connection is secure, and you won't end up ever being accused of something like that? I don't think MPs understand enough about the internet to debate the bill properly even if they did agree to "scrutinise" it, and generally find the whole thing terrifying.

I saw the Panorama about this (presented by Jo Whiley which dented the credibility somewhat) and the ISPs aren't playing. The government's trying to keep the record and film companies happy by talking about being tough, but in my view it's utterly unworkable. And if the EU makes internet access a human right, which there's talk of them doing, they won't be able to disconnect people anyway.

Or of course, they could always follow China's example. They seem to regulate internet access pretty effectively...

[Priene]

And the parties are lining up celebrity supporters. The Lib Dems have a daunting array of bedwetting indie strumsters (Chris Martin, the Kooks and Razorlight - someone clearly forgot to issue an invite to the Maccabees), Colin Firth for the Regency vote and (I confess I'm sweet on her) Kate Winslet. The Tories have a dragoon of antiquated dread: John McCririck, Paul Daniels and Carol Vorderman should combine to keep a few marginals socialist. Labour wins hands down with David Tennant, JK Rowling, Eddie Izzard and Patrick Stewart. That's Doctor Who and Captain Picard. They should be running the cabinet.

[Shakesbear]

Labour do indeed have a winning lot of celebrities. Given the state of the Arts in the UK and the number of recent cuts in funding they really ought to be ashamed of themselves for supporting any party!

[Don]

Labour do indeed have a winning lot of celebrities. Given the state of the Arts in the UK and the number of recent cuts in funding they really ought to be ashamed of themselves for supporting any party!
So one's support should be predicated on the amount of loot allocated for one's pet cause?

[seun]

That's Doctor Who and Captain Picard. They should be running the cabinet.

At least they'd know what to do when the Daleks and Klingons launch a joint attack.

[Fran]

Mmmmm, David Tennant.... :e2cloud9:

Oops! Sorry about that.

The Tories have a dragoon of antiquated dread: John McCririck, Paul Daniels and Carol Vorderman...

Are you just using this thread to induce uncontrollable vomiting?

Jeremy Vine was just talking about the leaders' wives on Radio 2 before I switched it off - does anyone really vote for a man because they like his wife? Should people who do really be voting? I saw some witless journalist on the BBC saying Samantha Cameron's pregnancy would boost support for Dave, and I can't think of one single instance where that would be of any relevance whatsoever. "Ooh, let's vote for him because then in September we'll see pictures of an ickle baby on TV." Urgh. Really?

[seun]

Jeremy Vine was just talking about the leaders' wives on Radio 2 before I switched it off - does anyone really vote for a man because they like his wife? Should people who do really be voting? I saw some witless journalist on the BBC saying Samantha Cameron's pregnancy would boost support for Dave, and I can't think of one single instance where that would be of any relevance whatsoever. "Ooh, let's vote for him because then in September we'll see pictures of an ickle baby on TV." Urgh. Really?

Says a lot about me that I read that as readers' wives.

I can easily see a pregnancy adding to his chances. Remember when Cherie Blair was up the duff? Tony's approval rating went up as a result.

People are idiots.

[IdiotsRUs]

People are idiots.

Are you insinuating something?

And yeah, like a baby will affect his policies. *rolls eyes* However, for Cameron and his wife personally I'm made up for them, considering. That doesn't mean I'm more likely to vote for him / the tories

[Fran]

People are idiots.

*sigh* Yeah. That universal suffrage thing wasn't such a good idea after all. ;)

[Priene]

Ordinarily, having a baby on the way would probably make me less likely to vote for someone. Lead a major western country and pacify a swadded bawling nightmare every three hours? Nah.

But as it happens, posh people don't actually see their offspring before they reach the age of rationality, so I don't suppose it will make any difference.

[Fran]

Lead a major western country and pacify a swadded bawling nightmare every three hours? Nah.

You mean George Osborne? Oh, right, the baby...

[Shakesbear]

So one's support should be predicated on the amount of loot allocated for one's pet cause?


The industry the celebrities work in is being starved of funds - though I suppose that being celebrities and not jobing actors they can forget their roots.

Is there a difference between supporting a political party and supporting "one's pet cause" ? And NOT loot but taxes taken from hard working people like me!

[Momento Mori]

You know, I was going to add something intelligent to this thread and then I read the post about George Osbourne wanking off to a picture of Kirstie Allsopp so now I'll have to wait for my eyes to stop bleeding and my brain to reboot.

MM

[seun]

I bet George is hung like Action Man. Which explains everything.

[Fran]

For heaven's sake, seun! Yeurgh.

Could one of the mods please put (May Induce Nausea) after the title of this thread? :D

[Priene]

I read the post about George Osbourne wanking off to a picture of Kirstie Allsopp

If you think you've got problems, imagine being the one who came up with the image in the first place.

[IdiotsRUs]

You know what's weird. Or maybe not....only the American Politics threads are all serious ( okay mostly) and yet the British politics threads degenerate into Allsop-Wanking For Britain, Is it an Olympic Sport? in what, a page and a half?

Anybody would get the impression we don't take our politics seriously

Of course for that you'd need politicians that weren't fecking laughable....


The Baroness may have been mental - but at least she had style. Barking - but at least the French were afraid of her. That's got to be worth some points! Handbags at dawn!

We seem to swing between 'barking' and 'borinzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz'

[seun]

Thatcher was a mad cow. Anyway, how is she still alive? She's got to be at least four hundred years old.

[Fran]

Thatcher was a mad cow. Anyway, how is she still alive? She's got to be at least four hundred years old.

They've probably done the same mechanisation job on her they did on the Queen Mother.

[IdiotsRUs]

Thatcher was a mad cow.

I'm a mad cow. *raises imperious eyebrow*

Oh, wait, is this you telling me subtly I should run for office? Oooh my policies shall be all fit men naked every Thursday, except when it's snowing. I shall lower taxes on beer in pubs and raise it through the roof for beer in supermarkets ( that way landlords will love me and I will get free beer wherever I go. Plus it'll stop so much of the teenagers binge drinking round the back of One Stop). Under employed civil servants from Whitehall will be forced to scrub hospitals and empty bedpans to make themselves earn their pensions. Or I might give them the choice of that or serve on the frontline in Afghanistan. School heads given less powers to be arses ( don't ask). Paint Whitehall pink with purple spots. Make French scared of me via big stick wiv nails in it cunningly disguised as a handbag. Ummm.....

what else?

They've probably done the same mechanisation job on her they did on the Queen Mother.

I don't know, have they managed to get teh gin stockpiles up enough

[Fallen]

Phew. We're safe. Our Local Torie candidates lives in London (some 100 odd mile away), so there's no change HE'LL be knocking on our door on the run-up to the general + locals.

Now, all I have to do is keep my baby out of town for the next month from the rest of the little beggars...

[Priene]

Thatcher was a mad cow. Anyway, how is she still alive? She's got to be at least four hundred years old.

Apparently her facial hair is now so extensive she's got the nickname 'Ho Chi Minh'.

[IdiotsRUs]

Quick question

Alistair Darling, collar and cuffs?

Is he a badger? I shudder to think of the stripes tbh

[ReallyRong]

:ROFL:

I was watching the news last night and they were talking about canvassers knocking on people's doors. That has NEVER happened to me. Maybe because I've always lived in safe Labour seats so the parties don't bother their arses, but has anyone had it happen?

it's getting MUCH worse than that in my neck of the woods.

During the local council elections, the Conservative candidate knocked on my door. "Can I count on your support?" says he. "Oh yes" says I with a thumbs up and he went away happy.
Then the Labour candidate knocked on my door. "Can I count on your support?" says he. "Oh yes" says I with a thumbs up and he went away happy.
Then the LibDem candidate knocked on my door. "Can I count on your support?" says he. "Oh yes" says I with a thumbs up and he went away happy.

Late evening on polling day the Conservative candidate PHONED ME UP AT HOME to say that it appeared that I hadn't yet visited the polling station. I had to tell him to fuck off to get rid of him.
Then the Labour candidate PHONED ME UP AT HOME to say that it appeared that I hadn't yet visited the polling station. I had to tell him to fuck off to get rid of him.
Then the LibDem candidate PHONED ME UP AT HOME to say that it appeared that I hadn't yet visited the polling station. I had to tell him to fuck off to get rid of him.

These people are getting to be more tiresome than people from call centres in Bombay/Mumbai trying to sell me Sky subscriptions.

[Fran]

it's getting MUCH worse than that in my neck of the woods.

During the local council elections, the Conservative candidate knocked on my door. "Can I count on your support?" says he. "Oh yes" says I with a thumbs up and he went away happy.
Then the Labour candidate knocked on my door. "Can I count on your support?" says he. "Oh yes" says I with a thumbs up and he went away happy.
Then the LibDem candidate knocked on my door. "Can I count on your support?" says he. "Oh yes" says I with a thumbs up and he went away happy.

Late evening on polling day the Conservative candidate PHONED ME UP AT HOME to say that it appeared that I hadn't yet visited the polling station. I had to tell him to fuck off to get rid of him.
Then the Labour candidate PHONED ME UP AT HOME to say that it appeared that I hadn't yet visited the polling station. I had to tell him to fuck off to get rid of him.
Then the LibDem candidate PHONED ME UP AT HOME to say that it appeared that I hadn't yet visited the polling station. I had to tell him to fuck off to get rid of him.

:eek:

That sounds like harassment to me. I would consider it harassment, anyway.

I sort of hope it does happen, because while my years of call centre work have given me the useful talent of being incredibly rude to people on the phone without sounding rude, my dad is the black belt grand master World Cup winner at it. A Tory phoning my dad. It would be worth it.

ReallyRong, out of interest, is your constituency marginal?

[Priene]

it's getting MUCH worse than that in my neck of the woods.

You let yourself in for it. You told them you'd support them. That goes on a database. Party agents at polling stations do their best to find out your identity, and the fact that you've voted goes on the DB as well. Near the end of polling day, they go through their list of party supporters who haven't voted and start offering lifts. It's usually a sign of a marginal constituency.

[JimmyB27]

You let yourself in for it. You told them you'd support them. That goes on a database. Party agents at polling stations do their best to find out your identity, and the fact that you've voted goes on the DB as well. Near the end of polling day, they go through their list of party supporters who haven't voted and start offering lifts. It's usually a sign of a marginal constituency.
Cool. Is there any way to find out which of them has the nicest car? I mean, you don't have to actually vote for them just because you said you would.

[Priene]

Cool. Is there any way to find out which of them has the nicest car?

The Tory. They'll splatter you with nonsense about Europe and immigration, though. And they won't signal when they overtake.

[ReallyRong]

ReallyRong, out of interest, is your constituency marginal?

At MP level, no chance - This is John Redwood (aka Mr Vulcan) country. At council level I'm not sure; there are certainly a number of LibDem and Labour pockets around and about. I guess I really should take more of an interest in local politics.

[seun]

During the local council elections, the Conservative candidate knocked on my door. "Can I count on your support?" says he. "Oh yes" says I with a thumbs up and he went away happy.
Then the Labour candidate knocked on my door. "Can I count on your support?" says he. "Oh yes" says I with a thumbs up and he went away happy.
Then the LibDem candidate knocked on my door. "Can I count on your support?" says he. "Oh yes" says I with a thumbs up and he went away happy.

Late evening on polling day the Conservative candidate PHONED ME UP AT HOME to say that it appeared that I hadn't yet visited the polling station. I had to tell him to fuck off to get rid of him.
Then the Labour candidate PHONED ME UP AT HOME to say that it appeared that I hadn't yet visited the polling station. I had to tell him to fuck off to get rid of him.
Then the LibDem candidate PHONED ME UP AT HOME to say that it appeared that I hadn't yet visited the polling station. I had to tell him to fuck off to get rid of him.


If fuck off is all you told them, I consider that exceedingly polite.

[Priene]

Well, if we're talking about John Redwood...

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[Torgo]

Thatcher was a mad cow. Anyway, how is she still alive? She's got to be at least four hundred years old.

She can't be dead, I would remember pissing on her grave.

[Fran]

At MP level, no chance - This is John Redwood (aka Mr Vulcan) country. At council level I'm not sure; there are certainly a number of LibDem and Labour pockets around and about. I guess I really should take more of an interest in local politics.

People voting for John Redwood. It's a mad, mad, mad, mad world.

She can't be dead, I would remember pissing on her grave.

:roll:

[BenPanced]

http://pics.livejournal.com/benpanced/pic/000efds4

http://pics.livejournal.com/benpanced/pic/000ehcrt

[Fran]

Hehehe, Ben. :D

Re all these business leaders declaring support for the Tories because of Labour's National Insurance rise, I think they should all open their books to the public so we know they're paying the correct level of British tax and not syphoning it all off to Luxembourg. I'm sure none of them will mind since they're such fine upstanding citizens and care so much about British jobs. They'll also be closing all their offshore call centres, bringing their manufacturing back from China and India etc to the UK and instructing their accountants to be less creative, because they Care So Much about British jobs. Bunch of :censoreds.

[Shakesbear]

Fran you are just so :evil:roll:

[Priene]

She's a damn Commie, our Fran.

[Priene]

Sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry. Dave Cameron makes a royal mess (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBlDfp85gP8&feature=related) of a Gay Times interview.

[Fran]

Sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry. Dave Cameron makes a royal mess (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBlDfp85gP8&feature=related) of a Gay Times interview.

Argh. I nearly put my fingernails through the sofa watching that. Bye bye, gay vote. Assuming of course all gays vote the same way, which I suspect they don't. Cameron doesn't demonstrate any real idea of what his MEPs are up to or what's going on anywhere at all really.

[petec]

A little boy goes to his
dad and asks, 'What is Politics?'

Dad says, 'Well son, let
me try to explain it this way:

I am the head of the
family, so call me The Prime Minister.

Your mother is the
administrator of the money, so we call her the Government.


We are here to take care
of your needs, so we will call you the People.

The nanny, we will
consider her the Working Class.

And your baby brother,
we will call him the Future.

Now think about that and
see if it makes sense.'

So the little boy goes
off to bed thinking about what Dad has said.

Later that night, he
hears his baby brother crying, so he gets up to check on him.


He finds that the baby
has severely soiled his nappy.

So the little boy goes
to his parent's room and finds his mother asleep.


Not wanting to wake her,
he goes to the nanny's room. Finding the door locked, he peeks
in the keyhole and see's his father in bed with the nanny.

He gives up and goes back to bed.

The next morning, the
little boy say's to his father, 'Dad, I think I understand the
concept of politics now. '

The father says, 'Good,
son, tell me in your own words what you think politics is all
about.'

The little boy replies,
'The prime Minister is screwing the Working Class while the
Government is sound asleep. The People are being ignored and
the Future is in deep
shit.'

[Fran]

Gordon Brown is promising to make a bigger middle class than ever before. How can he do that when Tony Blair *spit* has already declared we're all middle class now?

[IdiotsRUs]

Gordon Brown is promising to make a bigger middle class than ever before. How can he do that when Tony Blair *spit* has already declared we're all middle class now?

Well yes, but then Tony Blair's definition of middle class is 'can write own name, even if prompting required'

[Sophia]

We often have people coming to our doorstep during elections. For the past couple of weeks, it's happened on most days. Over the weekend, our MP was around, so hubby jumped at the chance to have a face-to-face chat with him. (Slight tangent: they send volunteers round to knock on doors first to see if anyone has anything they want to ask the MP about. The guy who came to us didn't have a clue what the Digital Economy bill was, and even got the date of the election wrong). Anyway, the MP was pretty chatty, laid back, and not at all surprising. He was trying to convince us that the Lib Dems are the most with-it party technologically speaking by saying how they have more members than any other party using Twitter and Facebook. Hubby politely pointed out that this doesn't indicate that a party is tech savvy in any meaningful sense. I got the strong sense that the MP didn't have any passions of his own, but just parroted what he thought his constituents wanted to hear on various issues. I'd love it if a MP displayed some fire, but sadly the only ones who tend to do that are the hateful ones. Still, both of us will likely vote for him again. We're in a Lib Dem area, and Labour have no chance here. It's either Lib Dem or Tory, and I can't see any reason to vote Tory.

[Fran]

Well yes, but then Tony Blair's definition of middle class is 'can write own name, even if prompting required'

Oooh. I can write mine without any help at all. Does that mean I'm aristocracy or something? :D

[IdiotsRUs]

Oooh. I can write mine without any help at all. Does that mean I'm aristocracy or something? :D


Only if you drink your Special Brew out of a glass, you know, classy like :D

[JimmyB27]

We often have people coming to our doorstep during elections. For the past couple of weeks, it's happened on most days. Over the weekend, our MP was around, so hubby jumped at the chance to have a face-to-face chat with him. (Slight tangent: they send volunteers round to knock on doors first to see if anyone has anything they want to ask the MP about. The guy who came to us didn't have a clue what the Digital Economy bill was, and even got the date of the election wrong). Anyway, the MP was pretty chatty, laid back, and not at all surprising. He was trying to convince us that the Lib Dems are the most with-it party technologically speaking by saying how they have more members than any other party using Twitter and Facebook. Hubby politely pointed out that this doesn't indicate that a party is tech savvy in any meaningful sense. I got the strong sense that the MP didn't have any passions of his own, but just parroted what he thought his constituents wanted to hear on various issues. I'd love it if a MP displayed some fire, but sadly the only ones who tend to do that are the hateful ones. Still, both of us will likely vote for him again. We're in a Lib Dem area, and Labour have no chance here. It's either Lib Dem or Tory, and I can't see any reason to vote Tory.
Incidentally, did you read dot.Rory on the BBC news website? He gave a link (http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200910/cmhansrd/cm100407/debtext/100407-0032.htm#1004088001556) to how the vote was split on the digital economy bill. My MP apparently didn't even bother to vote.
I think I'm going to continue my stance of 'they're all jerks, I don't want any of them representing me.'

[Fran]

Only if you drink your Special Brew out of a glass, you know, classy like :D

One drinks one's Special Brew from the finest Edinburgh crystal glasses. :D

[Priene]

I think I'm going to continue my stance of 'they're all jerks, I don't want any of them representing me.'

That's understandable, but in a month's time one of them is going to be representing you.

[JimmyB27]

That's understandable, but in a month's time one of them is going to be representing you.
I know, depressing isn't it?

[Fran]

I know, depressing isn't it?

Not as depressing as the BNP getting in because no one else has bothered to vote. They're not a sure thing so their voters turn out. Although as soon as the turnout drops below 50% (I'm not saying that'll happen in this election it's a general question) is the UK entitled to call itself a democracy anymore?

[seun]

I got a leaflet through my letterbox today from the English Democrats.

I know what they can do with their leaflet. It involves shoving.

[Fran]

I got a leaflet through my letterbox today from the English Democrats.

I know what they can do with their leaflet. It involves shoving.

I used to put BNP leaflets in my cat's litter tray.

[Sophia]

Incidentally, did you read dot.Rory on the BBC news website? He gave a link (http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200910/cmhansrd/cm100407/debtext/100407-0032.htm#1004088001556) to how the vote was split on the digital economy bill. My MP apparently didn't even bother to vote.

Yes. We asked ours why he hadn't voted, and he said he'd had a constituent engagement at the same time, but would have voted against the bill.

[JimmyB27]

Not as depressing as the BNP getting in because no one else has bothered to vote. They're not a sure thing so their voters turn out. Although as soon as the turnout drops below 50% (I'm not saying that'll happen in this election it's a general question) is the UK entitled to call itself a democracy anymore?
Yeah, that's a point. There's a BNP candidate and a BNP Junior (UKIP) candidate running in my constituency. Can I use my vote to vote against someone?

[Don]

That's what most people do in the US, Jimmy. It's called voting for the lesser of two evils.

[Fran]

Yeah, that's a point. There's a BNP candidate and a BNP Junior (UKIP) candidate running in my constituency. Can I use my vote to vote against someone?

In those circumstances I might do. Does the BNP candidate have a chance? I suppose they all have a chance. For some reason I've never fully understood, but won't complain about, the BNP don't get much business up here. Maybe it's because Scottish Labour are a bit more red up here so the working class vote isn't as divided, and having the SNP splits the vote further.

The BNP showed up in Glasgow after the Kris Donald murder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kris_Donald) and were promptly ran out of town. I've never been prouder of Glasgow. They haven't bothered much since.

[IdiotsRUs]

I liked the fact it was a Muslim MP intervened , got them extradited and done.

[Priene]

Although as soon as the turnout drops below 50% (I'm not saying that'll happen in this election it's a general question) is the UK entitled to call itself a democracy anymore?

It'll still be a democracy. Just a crap one where the parties have triangulated themselves to the point that no-one can tell them apart.

In those circumstances I might do. Does the BNP candidate have a chance? I suppose they all have a chance. For some reason I've never fully understood, but won't complain about, the BNP don't get much business up here. Maybe it's because Scottish Labour are a bit more red up here so the working class vote isn't as divided, and having the SNP splits the vote further.

The BNP showed up in Glasgow after the Kris Donald murder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kris_Donald) and were promptly ran out of town. I've never been prouder of Glasgow. They haven't bothered much since.

Scotland has its own nationalist party, so presumably most of the Braveheart brigade are voting there. I suppose a section of the loyalist community could be tempted by the BNP's combination of bigotry, illogic and murder plots (http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2010/apr/04/bnp-mark-collett-nick-griffin).

But even in England, fascist support has always been extremely localised: the East End of London, Lancastrian mill towns and grim slums like Stoke.

[seun]

From the English Democrats site:

http://www.englishdemocrats.org.uk/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=13&Itemid=27

What's your view on fox hunting, abortion and other contentious issues?

The English Democrats have sought to steer away from issues which are largely a matter of conscience. Legislation is not always the answer to everything. Sometimes education and changing social attitudes is a better way to deal with the activities society finds problematic. The English Democrats hold dear original English Liberal values of freedom of choice and freedom from the state on the activities of the individual. Also, legislation can only really be considered if it is likely to be enforceable at a realistic cost. We know some people feel very strongly about animal rights and the right to life for the unborn child as well as matters such as euthanasia and stem cell research are also crowding an area of policy which is controversial and full of lively debate. The party trusts its representatives to make decisions on these matters using their own conscience, guided by our Christian heritage and the need to protect society. It is for this reason that the party has no firm policies on such issues and would leave them as a "free vote" to our representatives.

Says it all, really.

[JimmyB27]

That's what most people do in the US, Jimmy. It's called voting for the lesser of two evils.
But, I don't want to vote for anyone else. I want my vote to count as -1 for the BNP.

:tongue

[Priene]

Wonder what would happen if the English Democrats met up where the British Nationalists were having an argument with UKIP. It'd probably be like Life of Brian, with knuckledusters.

[Fran]

Scotland has its own nationalist party, so presumably most of the Braveheart brigade are voting there.

Possibly, but the SNP don't have outwardly bigoted views. Alex Salmond is many thing, but he's not a racist. And the SNP have said if Scotland became independent they would increase the numbers of immigrants. It's not to say no one who votes for them is a bigot, because that's ridiculous, but it's not the central plank of the party. And they've proved themselves more left of Labour on some issues - free personal care for the elderly, prescription charges down to £3 an item, free bus travel for pensioners. How they would pay for all that if Scotland was independent is another matter.

I suppose a section of the loyalist community could be tempted by the BNP's combination of bigotry, illogic and murder plots (http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2010/apr/04/bnp-mark-collett-nick-griffin).

The BNP have trouble finding candidates because so many of their potential Stormfuhrers MPs have criminal records, which bars them from standing.

But even in England, fascist support has always been extremely localised: the East End of London, Lancastrian mill towns and grim slums like Stoke.

Which makes me wonder if the BNP are given altogether too much attention. Maybe if we ignore them they'll go away, but at the same time I think their grubby views and practises should be as well-known as possible.

[Priene]

Which makes me wonder if the BNP are given altogether too much attention. Maybe if we ignore them they'll go away, but at the same time I think their grubby views and practises should be as well-known as possible.

The tried-and-tested technique has always been the media ignoring them (so no Question Time appearances for Nick Griffin) plus plenty of hard lads waiting to give them a kicking when they organise demos. Falling voter turnout, as you say, is making them more noticeable. Stoke and (the wonderfully appropriate) Barking could be uncomfortable on election night.

Incidentally, are there any election posters up in windows down your way? There's almost none here. Never seen anything like it.

[Fran]

Incidentally, are there any election posters up in windows down your way? There's almost none here. Never seen anything like it.

No. There's a placard on a lamppost for Jim Sheridan (Lab) and Annabel Goldie has a "Vote Conservative" poster in her window. Since she's the leader of the Scottish Conservatives and they probably meet comfortably in her living room that's hardly surprising. No canvassers, no election leaflets, nothing.

It was gently pointed out in Reporting Scotland last night that a lot of Labour's manifesto promises don't apply to Scotland, since Holyrood controls policing, the NHS and education. Score one for the SNP...

[Priene]

It was gently pointed out in Reporting Scotland last night that a lot of Labour's manifesto promises don't apply to Scotland, since Holyrood controls policing, the NHS and education. Score one for the SNP...

Jeez, they were the ones who wanted devolution in the first place. They can't demand control of those areas and then complain when Labour comes up with plan for England. What are they supposed to do? Not mention the police, the NHS and education at all. Never change anything in England ever again?

[Fran]

Jeez, they were the ones who wanted devolution in the first place. They can't demand control of those areas and then complain when Labour comes up with plan for England. What are they supposed to do? Not mention the police, the NHS and education at all. Never change anything in England ever again?

The SNP are going for the "Look what Labour are doing for you in Scotland - nothing! All the things they say are for the Englanderlanders!" approach. It's not an angle I would pursue too vigorously - the fact is, Holyrood's little more than an expensive talking shop with no more powers than the previous Scottish Office had, and we wouldn't want Scotland to realise that and all those poor MSPs to lose their generous salary + benefits now, would we? The whole place is an enormous bloody waste of time, introduced by Labour to stymie calls for independence. Depending on what polls you read anything between 20 and 30% of Scots support independence - certainly it's never been in the majority, but if there's one thing Labour are very guilty of it's taking their Scottish vote for granted. I don't think they thought for a moment the SNP would end up in charge.

I've often wondered why they don't do it the other way, and ask the English to vote on whether they want Scotland and Wales to be independent. I don't have the first idea what the outcome would be, but it'd be an interesting question to ask anyway.

[Priene]

If I was running Scottish Labour, I'd have a big poster of Fred Goodwin with "Do you want to pay for this man's mistakes?" as a logo. Scotland dodged a huge bullet over that one, thanks to the union. Not that (from what I remember) the benefits of the union ever get much airplay in Scotland. Labour takes all its voters for granted, of course: that's what our electoral system is all about. Ignore your core vote and whore yourself after 50000 swing voters in crap towns like Basildon.

I suppose it would have to be a vote on English independence. Not sure. There's very little English national sentiment, which is one of the things I love about the place. And there's enough residual unionism south of the border not to want to destroy the UK. We actually like Scotland and Wales. I imagine Northern Ireland could be set loose without too many English tears.

[Fran]

Scottish nationalism is utterly depressing. Bannockburn was in 1314 for Christ's sake. Have we done nothing since?

I'm not much of a nationalist, or much of a patriot in general. My great-grandmother was Irish, my gran's Welsh, my mum's English and I'm Scottish. (I got called an "allsorts girl" the other day, which I like. :D) Your Fred Goodwin idea's a hoot - just before that enormous mess the SNP were claiming the Royal Bust of Scotland was one of the fundamental institutions that could prop up an independent Scottish economy. Brilliant. Salmond also said we should model ourselves on Iceland. The man's obviously some kind of portent of doom.

[JimmyB27]

Scottish nationalism is utterly depressing. Bannockburn was in 1314 for Christ's sake. Have we done nothing since?

I'm not much of a nationalist, or much of a patriot in general. My great-grandmother was Irish, my gran's Welsh, my mum's English and I'm Scottish. (I got called an "allsorts girl" the other day, which I like. :D) Your Fred Goodwin idea's a hoot - just before that enormous mess the SNP were claiming the Royal Bust of Scotland was one of the fundamental institutions that could prop up an independent Scottish economy. Brilliant. Salmond also said we should model ourselves on Iceland. The man's obviously some kind of portent of doom.
I have the patriotism argument with my Dad all the time (he reads the Mail on Sunday :crazy:). I don't get it - Should I still be angry at Wessex for taking over Mercia? Where do you draw the line?
In answer to your query about the English voting for Scotland and Wales being independant - personally, I couldn't give a monkey's. Unless it was done the way my Welsh flatmate at uni wanted it. Independence from everything except English money...

[seun]

Scottish nationalism is utterly depressing. Bannockburn was in 1314 for Christ's sake. Have we done nothing since?


Was that the barny that Mel Gibson won by painting his face blue?

[Priene]

Was that the barny that Mel Gibson won by painting his face blue?

The funniest thing about that was sections of Scottish society taking it seriously. You started getting skinhead yobboes painting their faces with saltires to match that mulleted anglophobic antisemite.

[Priene]

Sweet lord, my AW ads have started including Tory propaganda:

Labour have failed
Watch the latest videos from theConservatives and Vote for Change!
youtube.com/webcamerondickbrainuk

[Fran]

In answer to your query about the English voting for Scotland and Wales being independant - personally, I couldn't give a monkey's. Unless it was done the way my Welsh flatmate at uni wanted it. Independence from everything except English money...

I wonder how many feel the same as you. I wouldn't be surprised if they did. If Scotland can't generate enough wealth to keep itself going I don't see how Wales could with less than half the population.

Was that the barny that Mel Gibson won by painting his face blue?

Yeah. He prepared for the role by pretending the English were Jews.

Sweet lord, my AW ads have started including Tory propaganda:

Just vote Tory. You know you want to. :tongue

[Torgo]

Sweet lord, my AW ads have started including Tory propaganda:

I really wish that were the real URL.

[IdiotsRUs]

The funniest thing about that was sections of Scottish society taking it seriously.
Most of the Scots I know either giggled inanely at the ludicrousness of it or snorted whiskey outta their nose in indignation.


I wonder how many feel the same as you. I wouldn't be surprised if they did.

Me neither. Sort of a 'you chaps are rather spiffing, but if you want to move out and have your own space, that's fine too' I would be rather sad to see it go, but...

As for who to vote for. well my local MP is a v v posh Tory - but as he's well known for doing all he can to help constituents out ( I know several people, including myself, he's helped when they aren't getting the services they're due with a well aimed vitriolic letter and a promise to follow up :D Funny how all of a sudden the Government Agency that was giving you so much grief phones you up and falls over themselves to give you what you should have had, and more besides. They tend to go all grovelly too, which is nice) so I'm kinda dithering. Not that it'd make any difference, he'll get in anyway.

[JimmyB27]

Oh for a Monster Raving Loony party candidate in my constituency.

I still haven't even bothered to register to vote. Am I going to be too late?

Also, I think it's time for my favourite quote ever on politics:

"To summarize: it is a well-known fact that those people who must want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it. To summarize the summary: anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job. To summarize the summary of the summary: people are a problem."

Douglas Adams

I think that goes for Prime Ministers too.

[Fran]

I still haven't even bothered to register to vote. Am I going to be too late?

You've got till the 20th. Google About My Vote and it'll tell you how. :)

[JimmyB27]

You've got till the 20th. Google About My Vote and it'll tell you how. :)
Yeah, I printed off the form - it's sitting on my desk at work. Just wasn't sure how long I had to turn it in.

[Priene]

Just vote Tory. You know you want to. :tongue

I'm worried you might be right. I'll go in the polling booth full of righteous proletarian ardour and get struck by lazy 1950s nostalgia, remorse for abusing Thatcher and a desire to ape my betters.. I'll wake up wearing a blazer and old school tie with Cameron in Downing Street.

[Fran]

Okay, well this is interesting. I'm trying to find a list of candidates for my constituency (Paisley & Renfrewshire North) and I can't. Anywhere. Could this explain why there's been no electioneering? Is no one but Jim Sheridan standing? Are the other parties still trying to talk candidates in to it? If anyone knows of a site that lists all the candidates I'd love to know about it. :)

[Priene]

I'm not sure if the deadline for nominations has passed, so that might explain the lack of comprehensive lists. The Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/constituency/1213/paisley-and-renfrewshire-north) has Jim Sheridan, Margaret MacLaren (Nat), Ruaridh Dobson (LibDem) and the superbly named Alistair Campbell (Conservative).

[Fran]

...and the superbly named Alistair Campbell (Conservative).

Hehehe. Because everyone knows how astonishingly popular the other Alistair Campbell is. I can't see it doing him any harm at all. ;)

[petec]

Okay, well this is interesting. I'm trying to find a list of candidates for my constituency (Paisley & Renfrewshire North) and I can't. Anywhere. Could this explain why there's been no electioneering? Is no one but Jim Sheridan standing? Are the other parties still trying to talk candidates in to it? If anyone knows of a site that lists all the candidates I'd love to know about it. :)


http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/guide/seat-profiles/paisleyandrenfrewshirenorth

[Fran]

Rep point for petec, and also a big thank you, because that page has got the video of Michael Portillo losing his seat in 1997 which is the bestest moment in British politics EH-var. :D

[Priene]

Rep point for petec, and also a big thank you, because that page has got the video of Michael Portillo losing his seat in 1997 which is the bestest moment in British politics EH-var. :D

Election night was a gorgeous goolie-kicking fest for our Tory chums, and Portillo's was somehow the most satisfying. But then Portillo spoiled it by subsequently becoming almost human. My personal fave is Prescott giving Mullet Boy a richly deserved slap.

<object width="480" height="385">


<embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/5XTiI1e-wVc&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></object>

[Geek_Pride]

I turned 18 three days ago and get to vote for the first time.

Thanks for the link of what each party stands for. I'm still quite indecisive on who to vote for.

[Priene]

I turned 18 three days ago and get to vote for the first time.

Thanks for the link of what each party stands for. I'm still quite indecisive on who to vote for.

Welcome to the world of voting. It makes me feel rather ashamed at how jaded we've all been in this thread.

[JimmyB27]

Welcome to the world of voting. It makes me feel rather ashamed at how jaded we've all been in this thread.
Given our choices, I don't see any other option but to feel jaded.

[Priene]

Given our choices, I don't see any other option but to feel jaded.

Yeah, but imagine being eighteen, voting for the first time, and there's just a load of old farts going on about how dreadful all the parties are. Going on about Thatcher, fun though it is, is like someone when I eighteen droning on about Harold MacMillan. Get over it, grandad.

Maybe tonight's debate will re-inspire us all...

(leaves ellipses for expected sarcy responses)

[Fran]

I'm still quite indecisive on who to vote for.

Just please don't vote BNP. Other than that, have at it. :)

[Priene]

Just please don't vote BNP. Other than that, have at it. :)

Or UKIP or the English Democrats. Whatever they are.

[JimmyB27]

Yeah, but imagine being eighteen, voting for the first time, and there's just a load of old farts going on about how dreadful all the parties are. Going on about Thatcher, fun though it is, is like someone when I eighteen droning on about Harold MacMillan. Get over it, grandad.

Maybe tonight's debate will re-inspire us all...

(leaves ellipses for expected sarcy responses)
Old farts? Grandad? Steady on, I'm only 28!

[JimmyB27]

Although as soon as the turnout drops below 50% (I'm not saying that'll happen in this election it's a general question) is the UK entitled to call itself a democracy anymore?
Just browsing back through this thread, and I don't think this was answered.
I say yes, because democracy is about the people having a choice, and not voting is a choice too.

[Fran]

Old farts? Grandad? Steady on, I'm only 28!

And I'm only 32. :D But really, the more you find out about politics and politicians, the harder it is to instil a sunny sense of optimism in people who are just starting to vote. At least Geek_Pride wants to vote, and that's a good start, since we're always being told younger people don't care.

Or UKIP or the English Democrats. Whatever they are.

I don't think UKIP stand in Scotland - certainly not in any significant numbers. I've never seen them on a ballot paper anyway, but maybe they'll give it a shot at this election. (Two words - "no" and "chance".) And I don't think we'll be seeing much of the English Democrats either but a rally by them in George Square would be an absolute hoot. No, not a hoot, what's the word... massacre! ;)

[Lady Ice]

I have no idea who to vote for. Probably vote Lib Dem- the lesser of three evils, no? And Tories don't like grammar schools...they all went to public schools! Stupid much?

[Priene]

Old farts? Grandad? Steady on, I'm only 28!

Hey, I was talking about myself.


And I'm only 32. :D But really, the more you find out about politics and politicians, the harder it is to instil a sunny sense of optimism in people who are just starting to vote. At least Geek_Pride wants to vote, and that's a good start, since we're always being told younger people don't care.

For lefties, anyway, I think this apathy is a consequence of 1997. That was a genuinely exciting moment. Thirteen years of (at best) moderately competent government and (at worst) economic stupidity and military adventurism leaves you somewhat cold. But this election does matter. Not least because the economy is way up the crapper, as a direct consequence of pumping so much money into our formerly private sector banks, and the next government is going to have to impose serious measures. Not that anyone's debating that, because it would scare off the voters.

I don't think UKIP stand in Scotland - certainly not in any significant numbers. I've never seen them on a ballot paper anyway, but maybe they'll give it a shot at this election. (Two words - "no" and "chance".) And I don't think we'll be seeing much of the English Democrats either but a rally by them in George Square would be an absolute hoot. No, not a hoot, what's the word... massacre! ;)

I once saw UKIP campaigning in Edinburgh. Red-faced, bulgy-eyed people. Didn't seem quite sane.

[Fran]

Probably vote Lib Dem- the lesser of three evils, no?

I'm inclined to agree they are, but they pissed me off in the last Scottish Parliament by toadying up to Labour and agreeing with everything they said. Nationally I have more sympathy for them, so may yet vote for them.

For lefties, anyway, I think this apathy is a consequence of 1997.

So basically you're saying the BNP are Blair's fault? I can live with that. ;)

[seun]

So, who's watching the debate tonight?

[Fran]

So, who's watching the debate tonight?

I would, but my mum'll be in charge of the telly and there's no way in hell she'll be watching it. She'll be watching Escape To The Location Of Britain's Best Homes Under The Hammer In The Country or some such other dross. I'll try to catch it on the iPlayer later.

[seun]

I'll try to catch it on the iPlayer later.

It's on ITV, I think. Isn't IPlayer something to do with the Beeb?

[Fran]

It's on ITV, I think. Isn't IPayer something to do with the Beeb?

Oh. My mistake. The way the BBC were banging on about it I assumed it was on the BBC. I'll Sky+ it and watch when my mum goes to bed.

[Priene]

So basically you're saying the BNP are Blair's fault? I can live with that. ;)

Only to the extent that the BNP are lumps of shit that rise to the surface when everyone stops voting. Anyway, everything that ever happened was Thatch's fault. Her and Harold MacMillan.

[Sophia]

The debate was really good, wasn't it? I thought Clegg came across the best; I was pretty impressed. I listened to it on Radio Five Live rather than watching it on TV, so missed the body language. Twitter proved highly entertaining throughout, too. :D

[Fran]

I haven't watched it yet. I've got it on the Sky+ after cunningly bumping Grey's Anatomy to Living +1. :D

[Shakesbear]

Did not and will not watch it. All three contenders give me the heebie jeebies.

[Priene]

I got through twenty-five minutes before giving up and watching Lost. Inspired by Nick Clegg, I've been trying to find out if my wife is a Good Immigrant (hooray!) or a Bad Immigrant (boo!), but she won't tell me.

[seun]

I missed the first 25 minutes but watched the rest. Clegg came out on top. Brown is a cyborg; Cameron is a smug twat, and Clegg was easily the winner. What that means for the Election is still up in the air, but he definitely won it last night.

[Torgo]

I have no idea who to vote for. Probably vote Lib Dem- the lesser of three evils, no? And Tories don't like grammar schools...they all went to public schools! Stupid much?

I'd be voting Lib Dem if (a) they had a chance in my constituency and more importantly (b) my MP was not Jeremy Corbyn (for it is he.) Much though it pains me to cast my vote for Labour, as an MP in the Commons Corbyn represents me about as well as I could hope.

[Fran]

The stupid Sky+ cut the ending off so I missed the lightening hitting the biggest liar. That did happen, didn't it? No? Oh...

Brown really didn't want to do it. Cameron was doing that Blair "sincerity drone" act. I think Clegg did come off best, but if the Lib Dems actually won there'd be a few headless chicken impressions going on at Westminster.

I'd be voting Lib Dem if (a) they had a chance in my constituency...

If everyone in your constituency who doesn't vote Lib Dem because they don't have a chance voted Lib Dem, maybe they would win. :D I don't doubt you're right, but I've always wondered how much difference it would make if people didn't think like that. :)

[Torgo]

If everyone in your constituency who doesn't vote Lib Dem because they don't have a chance voted Lib Dem, maybe they would win. :D I don't doubt you're right, but I've always wondered how much difference it would make if people didn't think like that. :)

Believe me I have been arguing with myself on this issue many times over the last few weeks. The Lib Dem candidate, who seems a nice chap but is about 12, is clearly not expected to win even by his own party; Corbyn has won 40-50% of the vote every year since 1987 if memory serves and is clearly beloved of Islington's lefties. I don't think there's much prospect of the left vote splitting.

I wrote to Corbyn a few weeks ago about the Digital Economy Bill, and he replied, turned up for the debate, asked a good question and voted just the way I'd want him to. So it's good enough for me. Still, it won't be without some gritting of the teeth that I cast my vote for the Labour Party.

A couple of years ago when I was living down the road in Camden my MP was Frank Dobson. One December my water supply trickled to a halt for six weeks due to a SNAFU involving the council and Thames Water - everyone over the 5th floor on the estate was without it until about 2am each day. I went to see Dobbo when I couldn't get anyone to take responsibility, he promised to do something about it, then did absolutely nothing. Now him it'd be a pleasure to vote against, even in a lost cause...

[Lady Ice]

Clegg came off as sincerest; Cameron was too smug and kept shaking his head at everything Brown said; Brown was just dull and kept shaking his head at what Cameron said.

From the reaction poll on ITV news, Clegg got 43%, Cameron 28% and Brown 20%.

[seun]

I'd be voting Lib Dem if (a) they had a chance in my constituency

I don't understand that way of thinking. Shouldn't you vote for who you think best represents you and who you want to win, not who has the best chance of winning?

[Torgo]

I don't understand that way of thinking. Shouldn't you vote for who you think best represents you and who you want to win, not who has the best chance of winning?

Well, exactly, yes - but after some consideration I think that person is Jeremy Corbyn, who is way to the left of the PLP and has voted against the party about one time in four (including against the Iraq war.) I think there is a place for tactical voting but the guy the Lib Dems have put up in Islington North is classic safe-seat cannon fodder and I think wouldn't be as effective even if he did win.

[aruna]

Well, it's a three way race now. Clegg is at 30%, in front of Labour.
I can't vote but if I could that's the way I'd go.

[eyeblink]

I don't understand that way of thinking. Shouldn't you vote for who you think best represents you and who you want to win, not who has the best chance of winning?

Because we don't have a form of proportional representation and some people's votes count more than others'. Short of a demographic shift measurable on the Richter Scale, an opposition vote in a safe seat is worth far less than an opposition vote in a marginal.

However, I always vote in a general election, on principle. People in the past and other countries have died for the privilege of voting, so the least I can do is use mine. I have voted in every general election since 1983 and I've voted Lib Dem each time.

Aldershot has always as far as I know (and certainly always in my lifetime) returned a Conservative MP. However, for many years that MP was the late Julian Critchley, who was disliked by the local Tories - he was a known anti-Thatcherite and he didn't live locally. But he still had a majority of 17,000 or so. The current MP is Gerald Howarth, who was very Thatcherite in his previous stint in Parliament in the 1980s, and is someone I wouldn't vote for whichever party he stood for. However, the seat is now a three-way marginal: the Lib Dem and Labour votes combined totalled more than Howarth's last time. He'd be vulnerable to tactical voting, but no-one seems to want to do that here. I guess there's been some demographic shift in Aldershot over the last decade or so, with the Army less present than they used to be, and that's had an effect on voting patterns.

[seun]

The Mail proves yet again what a fair, balanced and not at all full of shit paper it is:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/election/article-1266826/The-United-Nations-Nick-Clegg.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/election/article-1266826/The-United-Nations-Nick-Clegg.html#comments)

[Fran]

From the article seun linked to:

The Spanish wife of Lib Dem leader Nick Clegg...

Hear that? Hear that? She's a... she's a FOREIGNER!!!!!

The multilingual Lib Dem leader was born to a Dutch mother and a half-Russian father, and employs a German spin doctor.

He's a FOREIGNER too!!!!! And he employs FOREIGNERS!!!!!! Don't vote for foreigners, people. They're not like us.

I'm never reading a link to the Daily Mail again. It's too depressing...

[waylander]

From the article seun linked to:

He's a FOREIGNER too!!!!! And he employs FOREIGNERS!!!!!! Don't vote for foreigners, people. They're not like us.



And he is at least as posh as Cameron - educated at Westminster and Cambridge

[Priene]

Yeah, but is she a Good Immigrant (http://www.chickyog.net/2010/04/12/general-election-2010-nick-cleggs-good-and-bad-immigration/) or a Bad Immigrant? Makes a difference, apparently.

[Fran]

And he is at least as posh as Cameron - educated at Westminster and Cambridge

Yeah, which just goes to show being super-posh is always trumped by being foreign in the Daily Mail.

Yeah, but is she a Good Immigrant or a Bad Immigrant? Makes a difference, apparently.

I don't know. Have you worked out whether your wife is a Good or Bad Immigrant yet? Phone the Daily Mail, they'll tell you. ;)

[Priene]

I don't know. Have you worked out whether your wife is a Good or Bad Immigrant yet? Phone the Daily Mail, they'll tell you. ;)

Well, she seemed to be a Good Immigrant when I married her, but who knows? She's started reading Stephenie Meyer instead of Evelyn Waugh, which has me wondering. Can Good Immigrants turn into Bad Immigrants?

Maybe Good Immigrants have some sort of sell-by date. Too long in the country and they start getting whiffy. We need a Clegg(TM) Immigrant Quality Test. It's the only way to be sure.

[Fran]

Well, she seemed to be a Good Immigrant when I married her...

So you've corrupted her, then? Maybe we should keep her and send you away. ;)

[Priene]

OK, here (http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2010/apr/19/liberal-democrats-guardian-icm-poll)'s a good one. The election finishes in line with this opinion poll:

Con 33%
Lib 30%
Lab 28%

This gives a Parliament with

Lab 275 seats
Con 245 seats
Lib 99 seats

Under the circumstances, precedent (notably 1951, where Churchill formed an administration despite Labour having obtained 4% more votes) suggests Gordon Brown, as leader of the largest Parliamentary party, would be the first called on to form a new administration. Would this be remotely acceptable? The third party, especially one that's been in government for 13 years, becoming the new government.

Presumably the new admin would fall to a vote of no confidence very quickly unless Labour formed a coalition with the Libs. Would Clegg accept Brown as PM? Would he accept anyone from the smaller party?

It's a strange election.

[aruna]

I don't know. Have you worked out whether your wife is a Good or Bad Immigrant yet? Phone the Daily Mail, they'll tell you. ;)

Please someone tell me if I'm a good or a bad immigrant!

[JimmyB27]

Got my registration form in today - last minute as usual! But it does mean I might actually bother to vote again this time.

[Fran]

Presumably the new admin would fall to a vote of no confidence very quickly unless Labour formed a coalition with the Libs. Would Clegg accept Brown as PM? Would he accept anyone from the smaller party?

I think if any party gets no clear majority, and Brown remains Prime Minister, the Tories and the Lib Dems would force a vote of no confidence and we'd have to have another election.

Please someone tell me if I'm a good or a bad immigrant!

Ooooh, don't know about you. You are a bit of a troublemaker. ;)

[Priene]

I think if any party gets no clear majority, and Brown remains Prime Minister, the Tories and the Lib Dems would force a vote of no confidence and we'd have to have another election.

I'm not sure that's true. Elizabeth Windsor, believe it or not, gets to decide. She'd invite Posh Boy or Cleggy, according to inclination, to try to form a government. But if Labour was the biggest party in Parliament, what's to stop them blocking whatever the new govt decides to do?

[Fran]

I'm not sure that's true. Elizabeth Windsor, believe it or not, gets to decide. She'd invite Posh Boy or Cleggy, according to inclination, to try to form a government. But if Labour was the biggest party in Parliament, what's to stop them blocking whatever the new govt decides to do?

Well, it would be nice seeing Auld Lizzie doing something useful for a change, but if the party with the largest number of seats aren't in power the next four years are a waste of bloody time.

Maybe we'll get that revolution I've been waiting for... :e2cloud9:

[Priene]

seeing Auld Lizzie doing something useful for a change

It'd be a bloody miracle.

There's a precedent for the largest party not forming the government. In 1922 the incumbent Tories lost their majority, and the much smaller Labour Party formed its first, not entirely successful administration.

[Torgo]

I'm not sure that's true. Elizabeth Windsor, believe it or not, gets to decide. She'd invite Posh Boy or Cleggy, according to inclination, to try to form a government. But if Labour was the biggest party in Parliament, what's to stop them blocking whatever the new govt decides to do?

Actually I think Brown has to resign before Lizzie can offer the job to anyone else. If he doesn't end up with a majority, he can still struggle on until he loses a vote of no confidence - and there's one built into the vote on the next Queen's Speech, so he'd have until then to do a deal to get a working majority (say a Lib-Lab pact). Heath didn't resign right away when he failed to win a majority in '74.

[aruna]

Ooooh, don't know about you. You are a bit of a troublemaker. ;)

yep. I came here to undermine the British Way of Lofe.

I have to say, British politics were so boring up to now I wasn't even bothering to follow this thread. Suddenly, things got interesting...

[Priene]

Actually I think Brown has to resign before Lizzie can offer the job to anyone else. If he doesn't end up with a majority, he can still struggle on until he loses a vote of no confidence - and there's one built into the vote on the next Queen's Speech, so he'd have until then to do a deal to get a working majority (say a Lib-Lab pact). Heath didn't resign right away when he failed to win a majority in '74.

Agreed, but what I was saying is that there doesn't have to be a new election following a vote of no confidence. In theory Windsor could just keep on asking different leaders if they could form a government. At some point everything would become untenable, I suppose.

[Sophia]

This Flickr group of photos of election posters (http://www.flickr.com/groups/electionposters/) taken from around the UK is good fun. It's the graffiti on most of them that is the highlight, and one of the things I love about this country. :)

[Priene]

And the Torygraph is now trying to smear Nick Clegg by alleging (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/election-2010/7616526/General-Election-2010-Nick-Clegg-the-Lib-Dem-donors-and-payments-into-his-private-bank-account.html) he took money from donors and then, er, remembered to declare them.

But he banked the money in the wrong account. Which apparently makes him the worst desperado since John Dillinger.

Given the Torygraph admits this

Records of Mr Clegg’s personal bank account show the three men each paid up to £250 a month into the account.

He should call the police. I'd love to see a national newspaper editor get sent down.

[aruna]

heehee!
The Daily Mail is going apoplectic about Clegg.
In an astonishing attack on our national pride, the Liberal Democrat leader said we suffered from ‘delusions of grandeur’ and a ‘misplaced sense of superiority’ over having defeated the horrors of Nazism.

He said we found it hard to accept that Germany had become a ‘vastly more prosperous nation’ and that ‘we need to be put back in our place’.

His views, outlined in a newspaper article when he was a member of the European Parliament, cast grave doubts over his judgment of international affairs ahead of the second leaders’ debate this evening, when the topic will be foreign policy.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/election/article-1267921/GENERAL-ELECTION-2010-Nick-Clegg-Nazi-slur-Britain.html#ixzz0loHtmdJN

[seun]

heehee!
The Daily Mail is going apoplectic about Clegg.

Just when I think the Mail can't get any worse, it proves me wrong.

[Priene]

Apparently Louis Theroux used to be (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/election-2010/7604138/General-Election-2010-Louis-Theroux-claims-he-was-Nick-Cleggs-fag-at-public-school.html) Nick Clegg's fag. This election is so weird I need to refocus my reality-glasses.

[seun]

Apparently Louis Theroux used to be (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/election-2010/7604138/General-Election-2010-Louis-Theroux-claims-he-was-Nick-Cleggs-fag-at-public-school.html) Nick Clegg's fag.

Waits for our American friends to wonder what we do at public school...:D

[Fran]

He said we found it hard to accept that Germany had become a ‘vastly more prosperous nation’...

Okay. Anyone want to dispute that Germany has become a 'vastly more prosperous nation'? Anyone? No? So the Mail can't dispute the facts, so it's going after the man who said it. When it was kinda into Germany in the mid- to late-thirties.

The Daily Mail is nothing but a poisonous self-interested Nazi rag, who thinks anyone who doesn't have a 4x4 and little Tarquin and Jemima in private school is out to wreck the country. A friend of mine reads it and she's turning in to a paranoid, right-wing nutjob. She sent me an email the other day saying France and Germany will invade us if we don't accept the Euro - I mean, really - what the fuck? What's the betting if the BNP do well the Mail will throw its hands up in horror while secretly getting the staff fitted for their brown shirts and launching Nick Griffin's official magazine? If the BNP do well, it was the Mail wot won it.

Oh, and if my friend does vote BNP like she said she's going to, she and I are done.

[Priene]

I've been trying to find an online image of the Daily Mail's "Hurrah for the Blackshirts!" headline, but I'm having no luck. That's the sort of people they are and were.

[seun]

http://www.voiceoftheturtle.org/dictionary/dict_h1.php#hurrah

[Priene]

Wow, the Daily Mail actually liked the Germans in those days.

[Fran]

I've had a horrifying thought.

Who's going to clean the Mail readers' houses and au pair their weans if all the immigrants are sent home? :eek:

[Priene]

I imagine they'll have fags to take care of all that.

[Shakesbear]

Wow, the Daily Mail actually liked the Germans in those days.

Great example of understatement!

[Sophia]

One of the trending topics on Twitter today: "Many stories in the press are blaming UK Liberal Democrat leader Nick Clegg for various things, so people have begun tweeting their own suggestions."

Nick Clegg's fault (http://twitter.com/#search?q=%23nickcleggsfault) for the latest. :D

Hubby posted this one: :D

Mega City One genocide? #nickcleggsfault

http://i922.photobucket.com/albums/ad65/elarasophia/89992170-d48304b2aba3602d5ae7dfcaf5.jpg

[Priene]

Clegg, not-Clegg, I'm just undecided. On the one hand, I'm worried he'll support Cameron as PM. On the other hand, if the Tories press are so desperate to smear him (the Torygraph used a bigger font for yesterday's pathetic headline than they did to report 9/11), he can't be all bad.

[Torgo]

Clegg, not-Clegg, I'm just undecided. On the one hand, I'm worried he'll support Cameron as PM. On the other hand, if the Tories press are so desperate to smear him (the Torygraph used a bigger font for yesterday's pathetic headline than they did to report 9/11), he can't be all bad.

I really don't think he'd support Cameron.

[Priene]

I'm not so sure. Using the latest poll of polls (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/election_2010/8609989.stm) as an example, you'd up with

Con 33% (258 seats)
Lib 30% (102 seats)
Lab 27% (261 seats)

Labour returns to the Commons as the largest party with the third-largest number of votes. Unless Gordon promises an immediate referendum on electoral reform, I don't see Clegg being able to support him. Dave realises that after thirteen years and four leaders, the Tories have managed to increase their share of the vote by 3% from where John Major left them. He figures the only way to detoxify the "Tory brand" (my apologies for the advertising speak) is to govern without acting like lunatics. He offers Clegg a free vote on a referendum, citing the manifestly unfair election results. The Liberals haven't had a sniff of power since Herbert Samuel got in bed with Ramsay MacDonald. I just don't think Clegg would turn it down.

[Torgo]

But didn't Brown get backed into a corner by Clegg in the first debate over electoral/constitutional reform? He had to pretend he thought it was a marvellous idea, and all his own work, and that he'd get on with it in the next Parliament. I think Brown could well do as you suggest and offer an immediate referendum if he feels it's the way to save his job.

I just can't really imagine a workable Con/Lib coalition; just on policy I can see too many votes on Govt bills splitting it right down the middle..? Would Clegg really whip his MPs to vote for policies they campaigned against just to stay in government? I think that would risk squandering the gains they've made over the last few weeks.

[Fran]

Con 33% (258 seats)
Lib 30% (102 seats)
Lab 27% (261 seats)


30% and fewer seats than the party who poll 27%. Ain't democracy grand?

[Priene]

I just can't see Brown coming third and ending up staying as PM, even with a referendum agreement. They might be able to swing it in Parliament, but people would go apeshit. Maybe Clegg could do a deal with one of the Milibands to get Gordon removed?

[Fran]

I just can't see Brown coming third and ending up staying as PM, even with a referendum agreement. They might be able to swing it in Parliament, but people would go apeshit.

I'm sure it'd be thrown in his face at every opportunity. The public may just go with it, but only if serious electoral reform is introduced to ensure it doesn't happen again.

Maybe Clegg could do a deal with one of the Milibands to get Gordon removed?

Yeah, one of the Milibands would be ideal. Then Labour could have a privately-educated super-posh leader too. ;)

[Priene]

The Milibands are the sons of a Marxist theorist and went to Haverstock Comp. Nothing posh about that.

(Incidentally, Stephen Byers went to my old school, and I say that without a swelling of pride)

[Fran]

Oh. I thought the Milibands went to posh school. My apologies.

Stephen Byers is creepy.

[aruna]

Eek! Something happened today.I was in town, walking through the pedestrain pavement not a care in the world. There's a stand on my right, honouring "St George's Day" and some guys handing out drinks - some kind of punch, methinks. I walk by, and one of them says, "come on, have a drink, it's St George's Day!" I smile, say no, and walk on. He smiles broadly, says encouragingly "Oh, come on! Just raise your glass!" holding out a plastic cup to me. And I thinks, why not.
So I turn, smiling, to take the cup and then I see his button.

BNP.

Oh.

So I smile again and say, No Thank You.
That was weird.

[Fran]

Eek! Something happened today.I was in town, walking through the pedestrain pavement not a crae in the world. There's a stand on my right, honouring "St George's Day" and some guys handing out drinks - some kind of punch, methinks. I walk by, and one of them says, "come on, have a drink, it's St George's Day!" I smile, say no, and walk on. He smiles broadly, says encouragingly "Oh, come on! Just raise your glass!" holding out a plastic cup to me. And I thinks, why not.
So I turn, smiling, to take the cup and then I see his button.

BNP.

Oh.

So I smile again and say, No Thank You.
That was weird.

Run back and spike the drink with laxatives. :evil

[Priene]

Eek! Something happened today.I was in town, walking through the pedestrain pavement not a care in the world. There's a stand on my right, honouring "St George's Day" and some guys handing out drinks - some kind of punch, methinks. I walk by, and one of them says, "come on, have a drink, it's St George's Day!" I smile, say no, and walk on. He smiles broadly, says encouragingly "Oh, come on! Just raise your glass!" holding out a plastic cup to me. And I thinks, why not.
So I turn, smiling, to take the cup and then I see his button.

BNP.

Oh.

So I smile again and say, No Thank You.
That was weird.

That's so strange I can't begin to explain it. He probably couldn't either.

[aruna]

It was surreal. And afterwards, I felt really guilty. Because I had judged him on account of his badge. Instead of seeing the human being in him, reacting to his smile as my instinct told me. Morally, I think I should have taken the drink. Politically -- not so.
I'm still thinking about it.
ANd in the end it wa probably just a publicity stunt. See, we lurves you furriners, you immigrants!

[Priene]

Morally, I think I should have taken the drink

I'd rather throat a quart of dog's bile.

[Parametric]

So I went to writing group last night. In a waterfront bar a stone's throw from the Arnolfini. At 7pm.

In retrospect, this may have been a bad plan. :tongue

Zippy police boats. Riot police. Anti-war protesters. Placards. Snipers, allegedly. (My writing friends might have invented the snipers, I didn't see any. Maybe they were ninjas. Sniper ninjas!)

Dramatic to walk through feeling like an ant about to be stomped on, but fun to watch from a safe warm bar. :)

[waylander]

I'd rather throat a quart of dog's bile.

That would be Boddington's then

[Fran]

Morally, I think I should have taken the drink.

Morally, they shouldn't be fascists. Don't worry. I wouldn't have taken anything from them either. :Hug2:

[JimmyB27]

It was surreal. And afterwards, I felt really guilty. Because I had judged him on account of his badge. Instead of seeing the human being in him, reacting to his smile as my instinct told me. Morally, I think I should have taken the drink. Politically -- not so.
I'm still thinking about it.
ANd in the end it wa probably just a publicity stunt. See, we lurves you furriners, you immigrants!
Really, sometimes judgement is ok. Colour of skin is a bad thing to judge people on, because it doesn't have any bearing on....well, anything. However, membership of a bigoted organisation such as the BNP does imply that, at best, he's an easily led moron.

[Slushie]

I have little to no idea what's going on in this thread, but I'd like to share an American perspective on the debate:
<table style='font:11px arial; color:#333; background-color:#f5f5f5' cellpadding='0' cellspacing='0' width='360' height='353'><tbody><tr style='background-color:#e5e5e5' valign='middle'><td style='padding:2px 1px 0px 5px;'><a target='_blank' style='color:#333; text-decoration:none; font-weight:bold;' href='http://www.thedailyshow.com'>The Daily Show With Jon Stewart</a></td><td style='padding:2px 5px 0px 5px; text-align:right; font-weight:bold;'>Mon - Thurs 11p / 10c</td></tr><tr style='height:14px;' valign='middle'><td style='padding:2px 1px 0px 5px;' colspan='2'<a target='_blank' style='color:#333; text-decoration:none; font-weight:bold;' href='http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/wed-april-21-2010/united-kingdom-general-election'>United Kingdom General Election<a></td></tr><tr style='height:14px; background-color:#353535' valign='middle'><td colspan='2' style='padding:2px 5px 0px 5px; width:360px; overflow:hidden; text-align:right'><a target='_blank' style='color:#96deff; text-decoration:none; font-weight:bold;' href='http://www.thedailyshow.com/'>www.thedailyshow.com</a></td></tr><tr valign='middle'><td style='padding:0px;' colspan='2'><embed style='display:block' src='http://media.mtvnservices.com/mgid:cms:item:comedycentral.com:271705' width='360' height='301' type='application/x-shockwave-flash' wmode='window' allowFullscreen='true' flashvars='autoPlay=false' allowscriptaccess='always' allownetworking='all' bgcolor='#000000'></embed></td></tr><tr style='height:18px;' valign='middle'><td style='padding:0px;' colspan='2'><table style='margin:0px; text-align:center' cellpadding='0' cellspacing='0' width='100%' height='100%'><tr valign='middle'><td style='padding:3px; width:33%;'><a target='_blank' style='font:10px arial; color:#333; text-decoration:none;' href='http://www.thedailyshow.com/full-episodes/'>Daily Show Full Episodes</a></td><td style='padding:3px; width:33%;'><a target='_blank' style='font:10px arial; color:#333; text-decoration:none;' href='http://www.indecisionforever.com'>Political Humor</a></td><td style='padding:3px; width:33%;'><a target='_blank' style='font:10px arial; color:#333; text-decoration:none;' href='http://www.thedailyshow.com/videos/tag/Tea+Party'>Tea Party</a></td></tr></table></td></tr></tbody></table>

[Priene]

"Sorry, Videos are not currently available in your country."

It's a controversial perspective, to be sure.

[Sophia]

If it's the interview with John Oliver, comparing the UK debate style and coverage with that of the US, it's brilliantly funny. :D

[IdiotsRUs]

You know what's really bizarre?

The Sun savaging Labour. It's almost like finding out that the Queen is a man or something.

[seun]

Eek! Something happened today.I was in town, walking through the pedestrain pavement not a care in the world. There's a stand on my right, honouring "St George's Day" and some guys handing out drinks - some kind of punch, methinks. I walk by, and one of them says, "come on, have a drink, it's St George's Day!" I smile, say no, and walk on. He smiles broadly, says encouragingly "Oh, come on! Just raise your glass!" holding out a plastic cup to me. And I thinks, why not.
So I turn, smiling, to take the cup and then I see his button.

BNP.

Oh.

So I smile again and say, No Thank You.
That was weird.

I'm betting someone was ready to take a photo of it if you had taken the drink. I can see the headline now in the Mail and Express:

BNP PROVE LEFTY SCUM WRONG: GIVE DRINK TO BLACK WOMAN DYING OF THIRST.

[Fran]

Since I'm going to be in France for a week starting Monday, I'll be relying on you lot for my election coverage. :D

[IdiotsRUs]

Since I'm going to be in France for a week starting Monday, I'll be relying on you lot for my election coverage. :D


I can give you some now.

Blah blah blah, economy, blah blah, NHS, blah blah, smears, blah blah, Nick Clegg outted as posher than Cameron, blah blah, Gordon Brown makes bid on first charisma transplant, blah blah, more smears, blah blah, outright lies, blah blah, Cameron uses wife's pregnancy as election fodder, blah blah, A Party Leader says something laughable, like that's news, blah blah.

[Slushie]

If it's the interview with John Oliver, comparing the UK debate style and coverage with that of the US, it's brilliantly funny. :D

It is. John Oliver is my favorite person on the show.

Sorry the video didn't work. I forget about copyright laws and stuff sometimes.:e2bummed:

[clintl]

Is their any conceivable way Clegg could end up as the prime minister? Because it sounds like he's the best of the three.

[Priene]

Is their any conceivable way Clegg could end up as the prime minister? Because it sounds like he's the best of the three.

If simultaneous asteroid strikes wiped out Labour's industrial heartlands and the Tory shires while sparing the pockets of Liberal support, it could happen. Otherwise, the Liberals would need roughly 42% support, and that's more or less inconceivable. To see why our first-past-the-post democracy is a joke, try playing with the BBC's election seat calculator (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/election_2010/8609989.stm).

[Torgo]

To see why our first-past-the-post democracy is a joke, try playing with the BBC's election seat calculator (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/election_2010/8609989.stm).

Apparently call-me-Dave has no problem with it...

[Fran]

Apparently call-me-Dave has no problem with it...

No, I bet he doesn't, but you can bet your arse if he was in Clegg's position he'd feel very differently. Funny how the Tories were so keen to accept PR in the Scottish Parliament - although I'm sure that was for strictly democratic reasons and nothing to do with having naebdy there otherwise. :rolleyes:

[Priene]

Cameron's changing (http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2010/apr/25/david-cameron-liberal-democrats-nick-clegg-coalition) his position on electoral reform. Cleggy, meanwhile, was on News 24 going on about how he couldn't support a third-place Labour Party in government. You don't need a weatherman to know what the wind smells of.

(Am I mixing metaphors again? Must be election fever.)

[IdiotsRUs]

Cameron's changing (http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2010/apr/25/david-cameron-liberal-democrats-nick-clegg-coalition) his position on electoral reform.

I'm not surprised. I played around with that thingy you posted and without playing about with Lib Dem or Other, the Tories would need 40% of the vote to get in. Labour only need just under35%. If you make their percentages equal (34.6%) then Labour have a majority 328 seats to Tory 232

Unless I'm doing it wrong which is always a possibility

Looking out the poll outcomes though, it does seem to be heading for a hung parliament

[Torgo]

No, I bet he doesn't, but you can bet your arse if he was in Clegg's position he'd feel very differently. Funny how the Tories were so keen to accept PR in the Scottish Parliament - although I'm sure that was for strictly democratic reasons and nothing to do with having naebdy there otherwise. :rolleyes:

Looks like, not for the first time, I'm utterly wrong (http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2010/apr/25/nick-clegg-coalition-conservatives). Interesting psephology from 538.com here (http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2010/04/labour-danger-uniform-swing.html).

[Priene]

Looks like, not for the first time, I'm utterly wrong (http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2010/apr/25/nick-clegg-coalition-conservatives). Interesting psephology from 538.com here (http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2010/04/labour-danger-uniform-swing.html).

Interesting psephology, but I'm not sure I buy it. They're saying that for every three Labour voters who go Lib Dem, another two go Conservative, which I find extremely hard to believe. What tends to happen is former Labour voters either stay away or vote Liberal. Also, there are comparatively few Labour-Conservative marginals, and they mention the shy Tory factor. Unless methodologies have changed again, pollsters have been taking this into account since the prediction catastrophe of 1992.

[Priene]

Right, Cleggy's now changed his stance. He could work (http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2010/apr/26/nick-clegg-hung-parliament-labour) with Labour, but not with the leader of the Labour Party.

Incidentally, the election has now started. Postal votes could be sent out from yesterday.

[IdiotsRUs]

Good grief. I've just heard part of an interview with David Cameron and some voters asking him questions.

(paraphrasing here cos I can't remember the exact wording)

Cameron - On about incentives for couples / those married, cites a case of a young man who, if he moves in with his pregnant girlfriend will be huge amounts worse off as the benefits system is skewed towards single parents, so it's costing him money to be a good father (Even more than normal!) Cameron talks about changing that but introducing tax thingies for married couples. Not much, but some. Blah blah.

Voter number one - You shouldn't give any incentives to couples as it sends the message that single parents are second class citizens and it's not fair.

What? Newsflash - it's already not fair love. Penalising people for being a part of a couple isn't sending a message that couples are stupid for not screwing the system for all they can get? Currently it's silly - My brother and his ex wife earn almost twice as much as me and Old Man and get four times the amount of benefits (tax credits etc) we do. If I left the Old Man I'd be able to afford to give up work! Sorry, but that just pisses me off.

[aruna]

Me too. My son has a girlfriend and a baby but they are better off financially living without him.

[Priene]

Cameron's not planning on tax changes for couples. They're only for married people. A big difference in a country where 2.2 million couples cohabit (http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=1161).

[IdiotsRUs]

Cameron's not planning on tax changes for couples. They're only for married people. A big difference in a country where 2.2 million couples cohabit (http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=1161).

I thought I heard him say he would make it so you wouldn't be penalised benefits wise if you were part of a couple with children. Ie that it wouldn't be more beneficial to stay apart. I may have misheard that ( I only caught a part on the interview). The tax changes were just for married couples though. £150 a year. Woo! *organises party* /end sarcasm.

[Priene]

I think Cameron's just dreaming up policies on a whim. Who knows what he'll do?

[JimmyB27]

I thought I heard him say he would make it so you wouldn't be penalised benefits wise if you were part of a couple with children. Ie that it wouldn't be more beneficial to stay apart. I may have misheard that ( I only caught a part on the interview). The tax changes were just for married couples though. £150 a year. Woo! *organises party* /end sarcasm.
As they said on the News Quiz (or was it the Now Show?), people won't get married for the one hundred and fifty quid a year. They'll get married because they want to fill their house with stuff from John Lewis....

[aruna]

That's one of the reasons I still pay tax in Germany! There's quite a big tax advantage for married couples there. I remember when I separated form my first husband: we stayed married and he gave me the difference between his single income and his married income, so I could support myself while getting a college education. I lived from that difference for four years, and then we divorced. (it was "only" 600 Deutsch Marks: but I managed fine.)

[Fran]

I'm sure I read the average wedding costs £10,000. People will say they can't afford to get married, then the government will have to introduce caps on the cost of flowers and wedding cake and wedding dresses and morning suits.

If ever asked, I could probably get married on less than £150. Apart from the fact I'd never work for Dave, I'd be the ideal wedding tsar. I'd go out on the street and poke couples with a sharp stick in to the nearest church or registry office and give them a charity shop wedding. I'm telling you, there's money to be made here. I can see the TV programme now - Get Married For Less Than £150 And Make A Profit Out The Government. If you make it a challenge, people will play.

[JimmyB27]

I'm sure I read the average wedding costs £10,000.
The *average* wedding? :eek:
I mean, my best mate got married a few years ago, and it was a fantastic shindig - probably a fair bit more than 10k to be fair - his inlaws are loaded. But that's a lot of moolah just for a big party.
But then, I'm pretty cynical about marriage in general. Why would you feel the need to have your love governmentally approved?

[aruna]

I'm sure I read the average wedding costs £10,000. People will say they can't afford to get married, then the government will have to introduce caps on the cost of flowers and wedding cake and wedding dresses and morning suits.

.


WHAAAAAT???
I never understood this big wedding bash thing. Both my "weddings" were no more than the cost of a meal in a restaurant, with our two witnesses, after the registrar's office!
I would not spend even a thousand for a wedding. Not for mine, not formy daughter's or my son's. I'm stingy in that way. Just seems like a huge waste of money.

[IdiotsRUs]

My wedding cost less than £1000 and that included the honeymoon and the booze. :D People still comment that it was the most relaxed and fun wedding they've ever been to. We went to a big posh do a few weeks later and my FIL sidled up to me at one point and said 'food was better at yours'. You don't need to spend money for it to be a great day. I had a Bugatti take me to the wedding for free and a Harley trike for after :D

You can get married for just the cost of the license - Old Man insisted on paying purely so he can say 'I paid fifty quid for you.'

And that's the only bit you need to pay for. The rest is fluff - so the government can quite rightly say 'Okay we'll put a cap on the cost of a license, the rest is luxury / non-essential'.

And yeah people aren't going to get married for £150. But it'd be nice if we weren't at the bottom of the pile when it comes to financial help.

[aruna]

Both times I got married, my husband was quite happy to keep it simple and do it on the cheap. I wonder if it;s the women who usually insist on all the fluff?

[clockwork]

Oh. Dear.

Gordon Brown calls Labour supporter a 'bigoted woman' (http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2010/apr/28/gordon-brown-bigoted-woman)

[Priene]

Oh. Dear.

Gordon Brown calls Labour supporter a 'bigoted woman' (http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2010/apr/28/gordon-brown-bigoted-woman)

From his assailant:

You can't say anything about the immigrants because you're saying that you're … but all these eastern European what are coming in, where are they flocking from?

Anybody who talks about immigrants flocking anywhere is most likely bigoted. As she was female, I reckon Gordon got it about right.

[clockwork]

Maybe he should have said it to her face then. :Shrug: In any case, he's already apologised (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/election_2010/8649012.stm).

It's hardly stunning that politicians slag off people like the rest of us, and it doesn't change my opinion of anything. And I suspect you're likely right about this woman. But it's rather a fuck-up any way you slice it.

[Priene]

He should have slugged her, Prescott-stylee. That would have given the media something to get their teeth into.

[Fran]

Where are all the Eastern Europeans "flocking" from?

Um... Eastern Europe? Just a guess...

If she's a bigot, call her a bigot. If it's justified, she can hardly complain. The media will complain for her.

[Shakesbear]

If she was concerned about all the immigrants from everywhere would she still be a bigot? Is she a bigot because she picked on Eastern Europeans?

[Priene]

The media are melting on News 24 right now, accusing him of all sorts of crimes and feeding the woman leading questions about Gordon. Strangely enough, none of them have commented on her immigration remarks.

And some Conservative bloggers have created unfunny mock posters about it.

[Priene]

Her words sounded bigoted because she used the word flooding.

[IdiotsRUs]

Hmm so what is acceptable. Trickle? Wave? Slightly damp? Would it still be bigoted if it was a flood? Cos there are quite a few round here. But they work (mostly) so I don't mind. I do mind people that come to sponge though. And what there constitutes a flood and is it bigoted to say it's a flood if it is?

[Priene]

It wouldn't be a flood because human beings don't actually flood, not being in any sense liquid.

[IdiotsRUs]

Metaphor is bigotry? Well as writers we're pretty screwed then.

Or she should have said 'A crowd, a host of Golden Czechoslovakians'


:D

plus it need not mean water:
flood (fld)
n.
1. An overflowing of water onto land that is normally dry.
2. A flood tide.
3. An abundant flow or outpouring: received a flood of applications. See Synonyms at flow.
4. A floodlight, specifically a unit that produces a beam of intense light.

I'm not saying she's not a bigot. I'm just saying that using the word flood doesn't make her one. If she has legitimate concerns about the number of people coming into her area and straining local resources, does that make her a bigot?

[Priene]

I don't know whether she is a bigot or not, but I can certainly see why Brown found her so. Of course choice of metaphor can show bigotry. If you're talking about a flood of applications to buy British Gas shares, that's fine. If you're talking about a flood of foreigners coming into the country with all those connotations of natives being drowned in the inundation, that's the kind of talk you'll hear coming from the BNP. If a politician used that term, there'd be a right old stink. Or should be.

[IdiotsRUs]

Of course choice of metaphor can show bigotry, but the fact remains that there are a lot of illegal and legal immigrants coming into Britain. To say the they are 'flooding' in seems not particularly bigoted. We can't not use words just because the BNP use them or we'd only be able to use the long words :D Maybe a tad misguided and / or she doesn't have the vocab to express it any other way. I don't know. If she'd called them all sponging bastards you'd have a point. To use a perfectly legitimate idiom? Not so much.

End result: She asked Gordon Brown what he was going to do about immigration. He hedged the question and avoided a legitimate concern that many people have (ie how are our resources holding up? etc). No shock there then.

[Priene]

Here (http://www.nytimes.com/1996/03/10/weekinreview/the-world-alien-expressions-wretched-refuse-is-just-the-start.html?pagewanted=1)'s a New York Times article on metaphors for immigration.

[IdiotsRUs]

In which it notes that flood is a consistently neutral metaphor for immigration.

Plus, the general hoi poloi don't generally have spin doctors to hand to tell them which words they shouldn't use for fear of being seen naughty.

In some areas it's, oh what word am I allowed to use? Um, an overwhelmation? Is that allowed? of the services in place. People who live there have a right to be a) pissed off about that and b) even more pissed off that ol' GB avoids the question of what he's going to do about it.

I do love the fact that she starts by saying 'You can't say anything about immigrants without being called....Where are all these immigrants flooding from' although a more pertinent question might have been 'When are you going to say stop, we're full'

Looks like she was right, doesn't it?

GB is ignoring large parts of the population he is supposed to represent. Much as it galls me, maybe that attitude of 'If you don't agree with me you're a bigot' has sparked the resurgence of the BNP. And that is unforgivable - that Labour would allow their own blinkers to allow that to happen

[Sophia]

This is from the transcript (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/election-2010/7646088/General-Election-2010-Gordon-Brown-versus-Gillian-Duffy-transcript-in-full.html) of the encounter:

GD: There’s too many people now who aren’t vulnerable but they can claim and people who are vulnerable who can’t claim, can’t get it.

GB: But, they shouldn’t be doing that. There’s no life on the dole for people anymore. If you are unemployed you’ve got to go back to work. In six months…

GD: You can't say anything about the immigrants. All these eastern Europeans what [sic] are coming in - where are they flocking from?

GB: A million people come from Europe but a million have gone into Europe. You do know that there’s a lot of British people staying in Europe as well. Look, come back to your initial principles. Helping people; that’s what we’re in the business of doing. A decent health service; that’s really important. And education. Now, these are the things that we have tried to do. We are going to maintain the schools so that we can make sure that people have that chance to go on. We are going to maintain the health service so that…


The incident did make me see Gordon Brown, as well as the other candidates, as human, for the first time. I think there are a lot of bigots in Britain, and I know that if I had to go out and talk to people as the candidates do, I too would adopt the protection that election language and a confident, sometimes arrogant persona, gives, because otherwise I think I'd give in to anger and a feeling of despair.

I don't support spongers, but the topic of immigration always makes me feel defensive as my father was one (he came over in the 1960s on a national scholarship to be an actuary, got a job to support himself while studying, and remained here the rest of his life). I do think generally that bigots can be instantly recognisable; I'd expect most people to know instinctively when they've heard something that reveals that about someone. Just from an unkind phrasing, perhaps. I believe that Brown got it immediately from "all these Eastern Europeans", and automatically switched into speech mode to get past it. But I know that in his place, that phrase would have been the thing that instantly raised my hackles and that I would dwell on from that conversation, and I'm not surprised that it was his focus when he was in the car.

[Priene]

Looks like it was a flock rather than a flood. Shall we agree to disagree on this one?

[IdiotsRUs]

Twas just what I was about to say

Cos you're too cute to argue with :D

ETA: I did mean to add that I don't think services are crumbling just because of immigration. I think it's a factor. But I can see how some people might think so, depending on their experience and any politician would be a fool not to recognise that.

[Priene]

Anyone watch last night's showdown?

Personally, I thought Hamburg looked solid enough, but Fulham have that lucky knack of scoring goals when they're needed.

[aruna]

Sorry. I watched A Good Wife.

[Priene]

Sorry. I watched A Good Wife.

You mean SamCam?

[aruna]

No, this. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Good_Wife_%28TV_series%29)
It's rather good. Don't know what SamCam is but I'll find out.

[JimmyB27]

No, this. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Good_Wife_%28TV_series%29)
It's rather good. Don't know what SamCam is but I'll find out.
Samantha Cameron, I believe.

[IdiotsRUs]

Anyone watch last night's showdown?



I caught bits of it. It was amusing watching Gordon making himself remember to smile and look personable. Kind of scary really. Then he ruined it by being v patronising in his parting lines.

There was a lot of 'Ah, well to deflect from having to answer this I will point out something ridikkilus in the other person's manifesto' but that's fairly standard.

Cleggy didn't come out so well - but him and Cameron both accusing the other of not answering the question when neither of them had was priceless:D

[aruna]

Samantha Cameron, I believe.

I learn something new each day about this country... I want to get nationalisation next year; wonder if they'll ask me that in the test?

I had the debate saved on Sky+ and watched a bit of it. Cameron did do well, I thought, in the bit that I watched. Brown seemed very insecure.

[JimmyB27]

Y'know, I still have no idea how to vote. None of them stand out as 'yes, that's the guy I want running the country.'
I think I'm going to have to go Tory, just because they're the most likely to push out Big Broth...uh....Gordon Brown.

[aruna]

Have to give it to the Sun: they have a brilliant headline writer! Scrambled Clegg on Toast-- too funny! E

[Priene]

Have to give it to the Sun: they have a brilliant headline writer! Scrambled Clegg on Toast-- too funny! E

Presumably that was dreamt up by their fiction department.