Slow Starts - What's critical in the 1st 3 Chapters? [Archive]

Mistook

08-19-2005, 06:41 AM

maestrowork

08-19-2005, 06:51 AM

It depends... what genre? I think a relatively sleepy second chapter is okay as long as you have a great first chapter. I think once you hook the readers with your chapter one, they will be willing to tolerate some character development, etc. However, if your first chapter is slow as well... you will risk losing the readers fast.

It doesn't have to be a huge crisis looming... but there has to be questions the readers are dying to get answered... who is she? where is she going? etc. etc. and they have to be relevant and not "who cares" type of questions. You have to somehow hook the readers to want to find out what's going on... and it's probably wise to NOT tell them everything they need to know about your protagonist up front... keep some distance... string the readers along. It helps if your first chapter ends with even more questions (but you need to answer them rather quickly in subsequent chapters)...

StoryG27

08-19-2005, 06:55 AM

Oh, this is my problem. I ALWAYS have to rewrite (and I mean seriously REWRITE) the first few chapters, even though I had once thought I was starting out with a good pace.

Are you referring to the work you posted? 'Cuz that's not slow. Setting the scene is fine because the reader can feel the tension building, knows something important and exciting is going to happen soon. But I'm with you on the 'how much is too much?' dilemma.

I've been rereading books that I remember being hooked on from the very beginning and disecting how the author paced the first few chapters. And ya know what, they had to set a scene too, put in the characters mind and make you care about the MC and what happens to him/her. What I found is that within the first five pages, something happened to change or alter the character and the conflict was set and the excitement unfolding.

Personally, I don't think you have anything to worry about. Your pace seems natural. Your story and characters are interesting, and the pace isn't rushed or dragging. But if anyone has an actual definitive answer to your question, I'm more than interested in the answer myself.

Pat~

08-19-2005, 07:38 AM

If you haven't read it, Noah Lukeman's The First Five Pages is a great book on this topic...

James D. Macdonald

08-19-2005, 08:45 AM

Delete chapters 1-3.

Mistook

08-19-2005, 09:37 AM

Delete chapters 1-3.

Dammit, you're probably right.

loquax

08-19-2005, 12:11 PM

Swoop - BAM - fixed! - UJ to the rescue!

Mike Martyn

08-19-2005, 09:08 PM

Delete chapters 1-3.

I knew he was going to say that.http://absolutewrite.com/forums/images/icons/icon7.gif

Datoen

08-19-2005, 09:19 PM

Tish Davidson

08-19-2005, 11:07 PM

Going back to what I have read from UJ. Keep going! Dont keep starting over. Get your work done and then go back and rewrite, rewrite, rewrite, revise.
See the work in it's entirety and then go beef it up, shorten it, whatever.

This is certainly one stragegy, but not the only one. Some of us find it very effective to work on the book in chunks, writing a rough draft of the next chunk while revising earlier spots we know don't work. We don't all work the same way, so try a couple of strategies and see what works for you.

sunandshadow

08-19-2005, 11:43 PM

Datoen

08-19-2005, 11:58 PM

Completely agree @ Trish.

Mistook

08-20-2005, 04:08 AM

What's critical in the first 3 chapters:
(Disclaimer - of course there are several ways to open a novel, this is just one I have found in my editing to be effective.)

1 - Establish a rich, immersive sensory environment, main character's appearance, immediate goal, motivation for that goal

2 - Either do the same for a second character, or show the main character persuing their goal, using this to explore the world, the main character's personality and the backstory of how he/she ended up persuing that goal.

3 - Resolve the initial goal and drop the main initial incident of the book on everyone's heads. If there are multiple main characters, now's a good time to have them meet.

That sounds pretty close to what I'm attempting. My CH1 is pretty much as you describe. After the setting and character are introduced, her goal becomes clear - to catch a mugger. Big action scene follows. Chapter ends with clues to her motivation - She's a PI just starting out, wants to grab headlines by solving a case the police are ignoring, thus starting illustrious career while reward money pays for looming rent. Chapter ends with angry cop detective calling her on the carpet.

CH2 opens with cop detective ripping her a new one. She finds out there will be no press, and no reward. She's back at the drawing board, with rent still looming.

After that I have her looking trough the classifieds. Best friend/waitress stops at her table for a chat - tidbits revealed, many questions arise, foreshadowing, nice chance to show MC isn't just a carboard character who only knows how to curse and fight, yadda, yadda.

-------------------------//

As much as I respect UJ, I'm not gonna delete chapters 1-3, but the advice has thrown me onto a new tack. Since CH3 is not written, I'll pitch it. I can link up with what's already there if I do CH2 the right way. I can pick up the pace, and pack more action into CH2 - ending with the MC taking the assignment that will consume the rest of the story.

The reason I can't just jump into the story after she's on the case, is because this is a case she would never have taken if she wasn't despirate. The reason she would've turned it down is because it's in "Loser Town" (see title).

Without taking some time to show the MC in her native habitat - the exciting city of Chicago - the reader has nothing with which to contrast the lameness of "Loser Town". There is less empathy for the MC, who, by the time she's on the case, does a lot of griping. Also, there's less appreciation for the amazing things she discovers there - since the reader wouldn't know off the bat that such things shouldn't be expected in such a place.

And that's about the best I can explain it.

Mistook

08-20-2005, 04:12 AM

Mistook

08-20-2005, 04:17 AM

This is certainly one stragegy, but not the only one. Some of us find it very effective to work on the book in chunks, writing a rough draft of the next chunk while revising earlier spots we know don't work. We don't all work the same way, so try a couple of strategies and see what works for you.

When I get stuck, I go back and tweak things. It doesn't stop me from moving forward. The thing about CH 1 & 2 is that they didn't require simple revisions or even re-writes, but a completely different approach. Without going into too much detail, much of what happens in upcoming CH27, depends on how I decide to go with 1 & 2. That's why I have to resolve the intro before I go on.

Not that I have to get them perfect, either. I just have to have new drafts of those chapters before I can write 26 through to the end. It's just one of those situations.

reni

08-22-2005, 12:19 AM

but it seems to me it's a heck of a lot easier to cover the intro for a story when it's written in 1st person. The protag simply tells the reader exactly what's up. In 3rd Limited, you don't have that luxury.

Very true. Back story is such a tricky trick to pull off. I've only once used first person to start a novel, but it worked beautifully. In that particular case, I wrote a prologue in which the MC sits in a motel room writing his wretched confused thoughts out in a journal, where we pick up right where he's at and learn along. At the start of Chapter One, he's interrupted and we are jerked from his head into the fast-paced world of third person narrative.

In another novel, I stayed away from first person but accomplished the same thing by opening with my pitiful drunk MC whining and moaning to the bartender about how he got here.

Just a few tricks I've tried. Back story is one of my favorite parts of character building. Finding new ways to weave it into the action is a challenge, but once it's accomplished, what a tapestry it makes.

sunandshadow

08-22-2005, 04:07 AM

Also, I should say, this is written in third person. Maybe this is fodder for another thread, but it seems to me it's a heck of a lot easier to cover the intro for a story when it's written in 1st person.

The protag simply tells the reader exactly what's up. In 3rd Limited, you don't have that luxury.

But on the other hand in 1st person it's so hard to find a good excuse for describing what the protag looks like and is named...

mistri

08-22-2005, 02:07 PM

But on the other hand in 1st person it's so hard to find a good excuse for describing what the protag looks like and is named...

Do we really need to know what a protagonist looks like? I find a vague impression serves well enough, most of the time. Naming is harder - until there's dialogue.

brokenfingers

08-22-2005, 02:42 PM

Howdy Mistook,

Here's a suggestion that MIGHT help. If chap 2 is the weak one, try to ramp up the prob a little. As an example, while she's sitting waiting for the waitress friend or whatever, have her landlord happen to drop by and comment that since her lease expired, if her rent's not paid by the 5th, then she's out of there etc. or have her friend make a comment about how she's glad that the heroine is helping her leave her brutal husband finally (with financial assistance?) and she told him last night and they got into a fight but she doesn't care because HEROINE is gonna help her move etc and there's nothing he can do now.

Basically create a situation in chap 2 where the HEROINE is put even more on the spot and so gains more sympathy from the reader and becomes more desperate to take any case.

My belief is that as long as there's some kind of opposing force to the protag's goal, the reader will keep reading. So basically:

Chap 1: She tries to get mugger and reward but that gets screwed up.

Chap 2: Now you show the desperateness of her situation. The results of her not getting the reward or not achieving her goal and her sorry plight. By the end of chap 2 have the reader think - what's she gonna do now?

Chap 3: Initiate story goal with mission she undertakes that she doesn't really want to but has to because of the dire situation shown in chap 2.

Anyways, just my thoughts. Hope they help.....

HapiSofi

08-24-2005, 01:42 AM

My situation: My WIP from CH4 onward is great, but the first three were garbage (for reasons I won't dive into here). So while I've been blocked a bit past midbook, I've taken to re-writing those all important first three chapters.

I find that I'm taking more time to develop my MC, and her world. Even in CH1, which is meant to open with a bang, I take several pages to set the stage before the action really heats up. Now, in CH2, I'm taking even more time to explore different sides of the MC as she goes about her business on a fairly eventless day.

The plot and the themes are being slowly amped-up with every scene, but in subtle ways. I feel it will all pay off by the end of chapter 3, because when she's finally catapulted into the thick of things, the reader will have all kinds of expectations, not to mention a deeper understanding of the MC.What Jim said: Delete chapters 1-3. No matter how perfectly written they are, they're a mistake. Nobody cares about your character and her world until there's a story going on in them. And I don't mean a story that's going to start Real Soon Now; I mean now. Get it started. Make it move. Explain only as needed.

The story starts when someone commits an irrevocable action. Make sure the book starts there too.

Also: don't write and rewrite the opening chapters. Get all the way through the book, complete first draft, and then come back and address your opening.

What's critical in the first 3 chapters:
(Disclaimer - of course there are several ways to open a novel, this is just one I have found in my editing to be effective.)

1 - Establish a rich, immersive sensory environment, main character's appearance, immediate goal, motivation for that goal

2 - Either do the same for a second character, or show the main character persuing their goal, using this to explore the world, the main character's personality and the backstory of how he/she ended up persuing that goal.

3 - Resolve the initial goal and drop the main initial incident of the book on everyone's heads. If there are multiple main characters, now's a good time to have them meet.How's that working for you in terms of getting out of the slushpile? Because I gotta say, I hate having to slog through "rich, immersive sensory environments," and explore worlds and backstories and personal goals, before I have a story telling me why I'm following these people around and watching what they do. If I have to wait too long for something to happen, I'm going to be disappointed no matter what it is, because by then I'm hoping they'll all die horribly and be replaced by more interesting characters.

Of course, that's just my opinion.

Mistook

08-24-2005, 06:09 AM

Nobody cares about your character and her world until there's a story going on in them. And I don't mean a story that's going to start Real Soon Now; I mean now. Get it started. Make it move. Explain only as needed.

The story starts when someone commits an irrevocable action. Make sure the book starts there too.

Okay, well if anybody wants to rip me a new one, the best place to do so in in SYW, where the rough draft of CH1 is currently posted. I'd be only too honored to have a real editor, or a published writer rip the thing to shreds now, when there's plenty of time to change my ways.

sunandshadow

08-24-2005, 06:42 AM

How's that working for you in terms of getting out of the slushpile? Because I gotta say, I hate having to slog through "rich, immersive sensory environments," and explore worlds and backstories and personal goals, before I have a story telling me why I'm following these people around and watching what they do. If I have to wait too long for something to happen, I'm going to be disappointed no matter what it is, because by then I'm hoping they'll all die horribly and be replaced by more interesting characters.

The immediate goal and motivation IS the story telling you why you're following those people around watching what they do. The attempt(s) to achieve the initial goal and resulting setbacks, reversals, and eventual success or failure is 'something happening'.

Unimportant

08-24-2005, 06:53 AM

I've been told, "The story starts when things start happening."

Interesting character in an interesting world has an interesting problem; character tries to solve it; character's attempt ends up catapulting her into some serious doo-doo: as a reader, I expect all that to happen within the first chapter of a novel. I expect to be briefed on the character, world, and initial problem within the first few pages.

YMMV.

HapiSofi

08-24-2005, 07:31 AM

Okay, well if anybody wants to rip me a new one, the best place to do so in in SYW, where the rough draft of CH1 is currently posted. I'd be only too honored to have a real editor, or a published writer rip the thing to shreds now, when there's plenty of time to change my ways.I'm not going to rip anything to shreds. I'm telling you that you should keep writing, finish your first draft, then go back and consider cutting the first three chapters. It's easy, peaceable advice.

HapiSofi

08-24-2005, 07:39 AM

The immediate goal and motivation IS the story telling you why you're following those people around watching what they do. The attempt(s) to achieve the initial goal and resulting setbacks, reversals, and eventual success or failure is 'something happening'.Why should I care about their goals and motivations? Everybody has goals and motivations. Usually, I'm happy not hearing about them. But show me someone in action, trying to do something, and I'm bound to take an interest in them. Once I have enough interest built up, I start caring about why they want to do this, and what they're shooting for long-term.

Knowing your characters' goals and motivations, and what their world is like, belongs in the category of knowledge the author needs to have. The readers only need to have a particular detail if it's necessary in order to tell the story.

Mistook

08-24-2005, 09:41 AM

I'm not going to rip anything to shreds. I'm telling you that you should keep writing, finish your first draft, then go back and consider cutting the first three chapters. It's easy, peaceable advice.

Well now you're just being a tease.

Just so we're on the same page, I'd already settled for two chapters instead of three before she takes the case. Now... and I mean right now... I'm starting to think that my current draft of CH2 (available for critique at SYW in the Mystery thread) can actually pass as a brilliant CH1.

I know I should keep writing to the end of the first draft and all that wonderful jazz, but cut a guy some slack. The first novel's a *****!

I mean, how can you toss out advice that a writer can only learn to write the book he/she's currently working on, and then turn around and say that universally, every PI novel has to start with a slinky blonde walking into the office, offering a case?

Either there's a formula, and once we learn it, we can write like mad, or every book is unique and you can't tell a guy to toss out the first three chapters because they precede the taking of the case. Especially after not reading them. Extra-specially after the three have been boiled down to one chapter.

What's the point of this advice? It's to save you from hours of pointless exposition, lavish description, and three nuttering chapters that establish nothing. I understand that! I'm just saying, can't a guy build some suspense before the gigantic car chase / gun fight get's going?

sunandshadow

08-24-2005, 11:00 PM

Why should I care about their goals and motivations? Everybody has goals and motivations. Usually, I'm happy not hearing about them. But show me someone in action, trying to do something, and I'm bound to take an interest in them. Once I have enough interest built up, I start caring about why they want to do this, and what they're shooting for long-term.

Knowing your characters' goals and motivations, and what their world is like, belongs in the category of knowledge the author needs to have. The readers only need to have a particular detail if it's necessary in order to tell the story.

Hmm, you're probably a different kind of reader than I am. Character psychology and emotion is always the thing I am most interested in reading about. That's why I love romance and psychodrama. My second favorite thing to read about is unique elaborate worldbuilding, which is why I prefer my romance and psychodrama science fiction or fantasy flavored. I rarely give a damn about what physical actions the characters do, which is why I am not interested in action - chases, shooting, martial arts, explosions are all boring to me, something I have to wait through until the author gets back to the good part.

So, the sort of hook a writer should use to catch readers' interest in the first chapter should be different depending on their genre and intended audience, and should be a true promise of what the rest of the book will deliver. E.g. something romantic for a romance, something action-packed for an action novel, something mysterious for a mystery, etc.

James D. Macdonald

08-25-2005, 12:20 AM

"Action is character."

-- F. Scott Fitzgerald

sunandshadow

08-25-2005, 02:16 AM

*looks dubious* Let's say we have a typical adventuring party fantasy. All 5 characters are doing the same thing - journeying to where the bad guy is to beat him up. They may have different methods of beating the bad guy up (fists, sword, arrows, magic, etc.) but do these small differences in action accomplish much characterization? No. Characterization happens mostly inside each character's head, in moments of introspection or intense emotion. This is because people live mostly inside their heads, and their words and actions only reveal a small part of what is going on inside their minds. So if you really want to explore a character's psychology the way to do so is by listening directly to their thoughts.

maestrowork

08-25-2005, 02:24 AM

Thoughts and feelings and attractions and emotions... are boring if the characters don't do something about it. If you have five chapters of five characters all thinking about killing someone... I'd bet your readers would drop the book and read something else.

In real life, it's true that many people live inside their heads and they never act on their thoughts -- be it adultery or murder or having a crush on someone or simply wanting ice cream after dinner... but in fiction, action is always more "telling" and interesting than thoughts and feelings.

By action, it doesn't mean it has to be what A does. It could very well be what A doesn't do. The lack of action is also an action -- "doing nothing." I think a novelist should learn how to externalize your characters' psyche in terms of "action" and "non-action."

Unimportant

08-25-2005, 02:31 AM

To play devil's advocate, s&s, how many people/characters are interesting enough that you'd want to spend three chapters just listening to them think? The Dali Lama (sp?), yes. Hannibal Lector, yes. But the average Frodo or Harry Potter or Sir Lancelot or Detective Plod or Masterharper Wossname? Nope. They'd bore me to death within a chapter. They're only interesting when they're put under pressure -- which, to me, means something is _happening_. Even better if they're introducing me to a fascinating world at the same time, a la Pern or Camelot or the Mafia underworld.

sunandshadow

08-25-2005, 04:22 AM

I didn't say the character should do nothing, did I? *scratches head* I meant that the character's actions and speech should be couched within the context of the character's thoughts.

Unimportant

08-25-2005, 04:27 AM

Mistook

08-25-2005, 06:14 AM

I'm thinking about all this in the context of what they're saying on the current DVC thread, where Brown is being blasted again for having too thin of characters.

And it's true, there are so many things to figure into the equation. What's the genre? Who's the audience? Page count. And I guess playing to your own strengths.

My WIP is meant to be pulpish. The characters can never truly seem as "realistic" as they would in a different kind of story. The heroes and villains are larger than life. They don't have to have too much depth to get the job done, but at the same time, I want them to be real enough to care about.

And the plot is part action, and part mystery, so there while there will be chase and fight scenes, there's also going to be chapters where the MC is picking up clues, peicing things together, thinking.

I'm trying my best to layer things so that the less action oriented scenes are always layered with suspense and mystery while the talking or the thinking is going on. Of course there's also backstory to fill in too.

sunandshadow

08-26-2005, 12:08 AM

Kinda depends on the POV the author uses, though, yes?

I don't think I agree that "characterisation happens mostly inside each character's head". A character can leap off the page and become a real, three-dimensional, living, breathing person to the reader within a paragraph even if s/he's not a POV character. Personally, I think dialogue is the writer's best tool for characterisation, with action/reaction running a close second.

It's true that it does depend on POV - something like limited 3rd or screenplay format pretty much prevents getting inside characters' heads. On the other hand 1st, close 3rd, and omniscient 3rd, probably the three most popular POVs for novels to be written in, all allow for access to the thoughts of at least one character.

I personally write rotating 1st and close 3rd, and in both cases I have found the viewpoint character's thoughts and feelings to be so useful for characterization that any character who is a viewpoint character for at least a chapter pretty much automatically becomes a deep, 3-dimensional character, while I would have to do a lot more work over more chapters to accomplish the same thing for a non-viewpoint character.

Mistook - I think that the phrase 'larger than life' is very interesting. When we're talking about pulp heros and villains, or in my case anime characters and idealized romantic object characters, 'realistic' is not our goal in characterization. But on the other hand 'thin and 2-dimensional' does not equal 'larger than life'. What we want is vividness. An extreme emotion, an unbreakable vow, a beloved object to protect... good pulp characters are 'purer' and 'less realistic' because to make them vivid and larger than life we take away the indecision, temporization, and other averages, we push them to archetypal extremes. But that shouldn't make them flat or unbelievable or thin. Their very intesity and archetypality should be what makes them resonate powerfully with readers.

Kasey Mackenzie

08-26-2005, 01:00 AM

Mistook

08-26-2005, 03:13 AM

Mistook - I think that the phrase 'larger than life' is very interesting. When we're talking about pulp heros and villains, or in my case anime characters and idealized romantic object characters, 'realistic' is not our goal in characterization. But on the other hand 'thin and 2-dimensional' does not equal 'larger than life'. What we want is vividness. An extreme emotion, an unbreakable vow, a beloved object to protect... good pulp characters are 'purer' and 'less realistic' because to make them vivid and larger than life we take away the indecision, temporization, and other averages, we push them to archetypal extremes. But that shouldn't make them flat or unbelievable or thin. Their very intesity and archetypality should be what makes them resonate powerfully with readers.

Good points. I guess by "unrealistic" I mean, they don't have the ordinary limitations that we can all relate to. In a realistic story, the MC might be squeamish, or back down from a fight, or have any number of other weaknesses that we can all identify with. And the fun in a story like that is seeing average joe (or jane) prevail in a way that we could imagine ourselves prevailing.

And like you say, the fun with an archtypal character is in seeing them exercise that superior strength, brain, courage, looks, or whatever it is. But there's a danger in having a character like that be too perfect. Like you say, character flaws are one way to flesh them out. Giving them some greivous inner pain is another. And the good ol' secret identity is yet another way. To me, there's nothing more fun than showing how an archtypal character like that still has to deal with mundane problems and lifes little annoyances.

HapiSofi

08-26-2005, 03:35 AM

Your book. You can do what you want with it.

StoryG27

08-26-2005, 04:48 AM

I definitely disagree that characterization happens mostly inside a character's head. It happens in large part by what the character DOES and how he or she BEHAVES. It happens in how others perceive them. It happens in how they respond to their environment...how they respond when placed under a great deal of pressure. Sure, some characterization happens inside a character's head and thoughts. But just as much takes place on the outside.

It's hard to know how other characters truly precieve the MC unless you're head hopping, and still that doesn't neccessarily show character, just shows how that other character feels and thinks about the MC.

I don't think character is revealed ONLY through thoughts or ONLY through actions, but through a mixture of both, nicely balanced to keep the pace going. For instance, you may learn some valuable characteristcs about an MC when he/she thinks about ripping off this jerk's fun marbles and shoving them down his throat, but instead, shoves the guy aside and hits him over the head with the perfect sarcastic remark. This displays your MC has some control over his/her temper, yet won't just lie down and be trampled.
Maybe that was a poor example, but I think character is thoughts and action and learning the balance is the trick.

Kasey Mackenzie

08-26-2005, 04:56 AM

It's hard to know how other characters truly precieve the MC unless you're head hopping, and still that doesn't neccessarily show character, just shows how that other character feels and thinks about the MC.

You don't necessarily have to head hop. You can show how people react to others in their body language, facial expressions, and what THEY say and do in response. In addition, if you switch POV's from scene to scene you can also further that characterization. I'm not saying this is the only way but a good part of it. Just showing characterization through an individual character's thoughts OR through actions can be insufficient, in my opinion. You have to put it all together to achieve a well-balanced whole.

Unimportant

08-26-2005, 04:58 AM

"...any character who is a viewpoint character for at least a chapter pretty much automatically becomes a deep, 3-dimensional character, while I would have to do a lot more work over more chapters to accomplish the same thing for a non-viewpoint character."

There's no one right way to write. If it works, it works, and if it doesn't, it doesn't. If your agent/editors/readers are happily buying and reading, then obviously it works; and if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

However, moving this from a specific instance/author to a general discussion of the craft, I think we'd all agree that the more screen time a character gets (MC versus sidekick versus spear-carrier), the deeper and more 3-D they should be; however, even the spear-carriers need to seem believable, and it's my opinion that the author should be able to make it happen right from the the word go with all characters, POV or not.

YMMV.

StoryG27

08-26-2005, 05:04 AM

I think we're all actually trying to say basically the same thing, just maybe saying it a bit differently.

Make all characters real and believable the best way you know how through various forms of action, preception, thoughts, and reaction.

Bottom line, when it works it works and a lot of it has to do with style.

Mistook

08-26-2005, 07:52 AM

Your book. You can do what you want with it.

Well, don't think your advice doesn't haunt me in my dreams. For what it's worth, my little opening chapter experiments are done for the moment. Tonight I finally broke through the block - the plot problem that had been dogging me since I hit the middle of the manuscript.

I've just finished a rough outline for the second half and will commence writing tonight, and over the weekend. I fully intend to finish draft 1 before going back to edit anything else.

Mistook

08-26-2005, 07:55 AM

For instance, you may learn some valuable characteristcs about an MC when he/she thinks about ripping off this jerk's fun marbles and shoving them down his throat, but instead, shoves the guy aside and hits him over the head with the perfect sarcastic remark.

That reminds me vaguely of a certain scene with a certain heroine I know. :)

HapiSofi

08-26-2005, 07:57 AM

Well, don't think your advice doesn't haunt me in my dreams. For what it's worth, my little opening chapter experiments are done for the moment. Tonight I finally broke through the block - the plot problem that had been dogging me since I hit the middle of the manuscript.

I've just finished a rough outline for the second half and will commence writing tonight, and over the weekend. I fully intend to finish draft 1 before going back to edit anything else.Bravo! Let us know when you come back around to what will, by then, be a mellow and well-aged problem.

Mistook

08-26-2005, 08:04 AM

I think good points have been made tonight about the balance between thought and action with an MC, and the challenges of developing non POV characters in real time. Internal VS External actions and reactions. I think it's important to have the skill of betraying internals through externals, because it's going to be necessary for most of the characters.

As StoryGirl pointed out to me on a SYW thread, the main point of going internal with the MC is to help the reader identify with that character as strongly as possible.

So I guess we all agree that character development runs along lines of action both external and internal, fair enough?

But the bigger question is about the balance between character development and plot development.

We can already guess that the best strategy is to develop both simultaneously. So along what lines does plot development unfold? If we knew that, we'd have a better idea how to incorporate that with the development of characters.

Any suggestions?

Mistook

08-26-2005, 08:11 AM

Bravo! Let us know when you come back around to what will, by then, be a mellow and well-aged problem.

Thanks! I will!

Hopefully in the next ten years! :)

sunandshadow

08-26-2005, 09:47 AM

We can already guess that the best strategy is to develop both simultaneously. So along what lines does plot development unfold? If we knew that, we'd have a better idea how to incorporate that with the development of characters.

Any suggestions?

Well, if you agree with the vector theory of plot, wherein each character represents a thematic vector, the story represents the argument or struggle between opposing thematic vectors, and the climax represents one character/theme 'winning' the argument... there you go. ;)

HapiSofi

08-26-2005, 09:22 PM

Well, if you agree with the vector theory of plot, wherein each character represents a thematic vector, the story represents the argument or struggle between opposing thematic vectors, and the climax represents one character/theme 'winning' the argument... there you go. ;)"Cor-chase-my-Aunt-Fanny-'round-the-Psionics-Lab," she breathed, with something approaching awe. "Where'd that come from?"

StoryG27

08-26-2005, 09:26 PM

That reminds me vaguely of a certain scene with a certain heroine I know. :)
;)

sunandshadow

08-27-2005, 12:33 AM

"Cor-chase-my-Aunt-Fanny-'round-the-Psionics-Lab," she breathed, with something approaching awe. "Where'd that come from?"

Lol, great use of dialect! ;) That came from these two books sneaking off into a corner and crossbreeding:
Vector Theory And The Plot Structures Of Literature And Drama by Cynthia Joyce Clay (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1594577781/qid=1125086313/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/102-1761584-3580930?v=glance&s=books)
Dramatica: A New Theory Of Story by Melanie Anne Phillips and Chris Huntley (http://www.dramatica.com/theory/theory_book/dtb.html)

Lenora Rose

08-27-2005, 01:54 AM

I have to admit I'm very wary when someone talks about how character development is all in a character's thoughts, because I have read one book wherein there was a lengthy scene in which a character sat and thought about all her problems, and the person she needed to discuss them with, and what he might say about this rather emotional issue. Then the person arrived on the scene... and the scene ended.

The next scene resumes on the last tail end of the coversation, after all the heart-wrenching things were said, and soon the second character leaves, and the first character sits back and thinks abut all the things that they just said, and how she felt about them...

The same book did this same kind of thing, over and over.

Not that there isn't a place for depictions of a character's attitude and thoughts regarding things while they're doing something. And sometimes there's even space or necessity for a moment of focused introspection. This is just a worst-case-scenario kind of warning.

HapiSofi

08-27-2005, 02:16 AM

Lol, great use of dialect! ;) That came from these two books sneaking off into a corner and crossbreeding:
Vector Theory And The Plot Structures Of Literature And Drama by Cynthia Joyce Clay (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1594577781/qid=1125086313/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/102-1761584-3580930?v=glance&s=books)
Dramatica: A New Theory Of Story by Melanie Anne Phillips and Chris Huntley (http://www.dramatica.com/theory/theory_book/dtb.html)If you're pulling my leg, it's about to come off in your hand. Have you by any chance noticed that neither of those authors have a track record of selling prose fiction to normal publishing houses? Clay's book was published by BookSurge, and her fiction is published by Bookbooters. Phillips' author bio says she's "...amassed some 200 credits in non-union film production, including directing two independent features, editing features and industrials, and writing work ranging from features to television commercials," but I can find only one entry for her in the Internet Movie Database: she did Film Editing on Primadonnas: Rebels Without a Clue, a.k.a. Social Suicide (1991). In both their cases, the author's single biggest writing credit is that they wrote a book about how to write.

reni

08-27-2005, 03:20 AM

If your agent/editors/readers are happily buying and reading, then obviously it works.

If everybody here already had agents/editors/readers, we wouldn't be having these sorts of discussions.

sunandshadow

08-27-2005, 03:54 AM

If you're pulling my leg, it's about to come off in your hand. Have you by any chance noticed that neither of those authors have a track record of selling prose fiction to normal publishing houses? Clay's book was published by BookSurge, and her fiction is published by Bookbooters. Phillips' author bio says she's "...amassed some 200 credits in non-union film production, including directing two independent features, editing features and industrials, and writing work ranging from features to television commercials," but I can find only one entry for her in the Internet Movie Database: she did Film Editing on Primadonnas: Rebels Without a Clue, a.k.a. Social Suicide (1991). In both their cases, the author's single biggest writing credit is that they wrote a book about how to write.

*looks puzzled* I'm not pulling anyone's leg. Researching plot theory is one of my hobbies, so I read all books available on the subject regardless of who wrote them. Personally I believe in judging all books solely on their own content and how useful it is to me, I don't give a damn about the author's publishing credits any more than I would want to know about the author's appearance or political affiliation or sexual preference or shoe size. I have run into a lot of prejudice myself because I don't have any publishing credits yet, but everybody has to start somewhere, just because people haven't established a reputation yet doesn't mean they don't have anything useful to say.

But if it makes you feel any better I have exchanged several emails with Chris Huntley. He's a very intelligent guy who generously gives helpful advice and clear explanations, and is busily involved in several interesting projects.

Mistook

08-27-2005, 04:30 AM

Well, if character developes along lines of action and thought, then maybe it's true that plot develops along lines of character and theme.

If it's better to have characters in action, supported by internal thoughts and feelings. Then It's probably better to develop the plot according to characters, and not dwell so much on the themes. I don't exactly understand what I just said... but it sounds nice.

Aconite

08-27-2005, 07:11 PM

Personally I believe in judging all books solely on their own content and how useful it is to me, I don't give a damn about the author's publishing credits any more than I would want to know about the author's appearance or political affiliation or sexual preference or shoe size.
Except that those things are no measure of their expertise in the field of writing, and so are appropriate to ignore. Their lack of experience and credentials, when they're claiming to be experts, is not appropriate to ignore.

sunandshadow

08-27-2005, 09:01 PM

Aconite

08-27-2005, 10:49 PM

*shrug* In my opinion they are appropriate to ignore. I wouldn't trust what anyone said just because they had good credentials or disregard what anyone said just because they had bad credentials. I judge every piece of information on whether it's consistent with what I know of the world.
Okay. But by what standards, then, do you judge whether or not someone has better knowledge than you do? If what you know of the world is that X is an effective way to show character development, and you trust Author A because Author A agrees that X is an effective way to show character development, but neither you nor Author A are getting your fiction published, how confident ought you to be that X works?

To use another example, would you take investment advice from someone who's never made a profit from investments? If so, for pity's sake, why?

sunandshadow

08-28-2005, 12:24 AM

It's not an issue of an individual person having better knowledge than me, because as soon as I read their book I now have the same knowledge as them, don't I? I'm not trusting Author A - people are never completely right, everyone has a few wrong or even crazy ideas mixed in with the brilliant and wise ones.

Investment advice is a different issue because I don't know the first thing about investment so I would be forced to trust someone else's judgement if I wanted to make an investment. But I've read thousands of novels and possibly a hundred how-to-write books, so based on my knowledge of the field I trust my own judgement to evaluate whether any new piece of writing theory is trustworthy. If I'm wrong, it will have to be proven to me by my own future experiences and observations. But I'm unlikely to be hugely wrong because I've considered all the major existing theories of writing.

Aconite

08-28-2005, 12:30 AM

But I'm unlikely to be hugely wrong because I've considered all the major existing theories of writing.
Not to be snarky, but how's that worked out for you so far, in terms of getting published?

sunandshadow

08-28-2005, 01:33 AM

I haven't completed a novel manuscript yet (I'm awful at plotting because I have no instinct for it at all, that's why studying it has become my hobby lol) and thus haven't attempted to publish anything yet. For the pieces of my writing which I've had critiqued the general response is, "It's readable, fun, the characters are loveable... but where's the plot?"

Mistook

08-28-2005, 01:46 AM

reph

08-28-2005, 02:17 AM

It's not an issue of an individual person having better knowledge than me, because as soon as I read their book I now have the same knowledge as them, don't I?
Maybe not. They know more than they wrote down. You can eat a fine restaurant meal without being able to reconstruct the recipes.

sunandshadow

08-28-2005, 02:19 AM

To be fair, this whole thematic vector theory sounds a lot like the approach taken by Dan Brown for writing DaVinci Code. I'm just speculating here, but it sounds like the idea is to pick a theme, draft a plot, and then interpolate what characters are needed, and what they need to do.

Actually no, you pick a cluster of related themes (for a novel, only one theme for a short story), characters to give you various angles of approaching the themes, then use the logical process of developing the themes (raising the question of each theme, exploring the options of the theme, decisively chosing an answer to the question of the theme, and exploring the consequences of that choice) to draft your plot. That's why it's a theory that I like - the plot is halfway determined for you by your theme and character choices.

Here's an example from my WIP:

1) I know from experience that certain themes always crop up in my writing: social prejudice; friendship, sexuality, and family; freedom, captivity, responsibility and commitment; submission and dominance. I decided that specifically I wanted to write about the formation of a family (through the formation of bonds of friendship, sexuality, and hierarchy between the individuals) despite social prejudice and uneven distribution of social power.

2) So to explore these themes I logically needed a dominant character, a submissive character, one character owning or holding captive another character, a character who craved committment, a character who was afraid of commitment, and many other things implied by the above themes. Then I grouped compatable character traits to give me some individual character archetypes, and fleshed them out to create my cast of characters.

3) Now I am attempting to write a plotline which develops the themes, the relationships between the characters, and the characters' internal conflicts in a logical order. I did come up with a workable plot outline, but I wasn't entirely happy with it, so I sent it back to the drawing board. The second draft was better, but still not good enough, and that's where I'm at currently, trying to figure out what I need to change to transform my plot outline from interesting and semi-connected to riveting and seamlessly interwoven.

sunandshadow

08-28-2005, 02:22 AM

Maybe not. They know more than they wrote down. You can eat a fine restaurant meal without being able to reconstruct the recipes.

Well true. But then, as writers we're supposed to be applying the advice to our writing, and we can only do that to the extent which we understand the advice. So if the 'expert' knows better but doesn't tell us about it, it doesn't do us much good. It's more like taking cooking classes than just eating the cooked food.

Mistook

08-28-2005, 04:04 AM

and that's where I'm at currently, trying to figure out what I need to change to transform my plot outline from interesting and semi-connected to riveting and seamlessly interwoven.

I would think this is the point where you need to set the planning aside and jump in. You've got the rough idea of a story you'd like to tell, rough characters, and a rough plot. That's more than enough to go on.

Even though the characters are meant to embody thematic issues, real people aren't as simple as dominant, or submissive, and social power comes in many different forms - money, looks, weaponry, charisma, etc. Even "victim status" is a kind of social leverage. Compelling characters have complexity, and compelling stories have subtle shades of meaning. You can't calculate your way to that. At some point, intuition comes into it, and you only get that by writing about these characters.

Having an idea of where you're going is a good thing, but leave room for the story itself to breathe and move on it's own. You can always go back and recalibrate things at another point.

HapiSofi

08-28-2005, 11:20 AM

Any schema that has consistent internal logic can serve to get an author's imagination working.

Danger Jane

08-29-2005, 01:00 AM

There doesn't need to be a huge, iminent crisis.

If the pace seems slow, take out some of the description. Instead of a paragraph describing whatever it is, try to inject smaller bites of meaningful description into the action. And if you can, cull the first few chapters and get right to the action. Usually exposition can be put in later.

Sharon Mock

08-29-2005, 01:54 AM

What I've figured out from my constant wrestling with the first three chapters of the WIP:

-- Start with forward motion and momentum. If you have to start with equilibrium, make sure it's an unstable equilibrium, right at the cusp of tumbling into the story.

-- There is such a thing as starting a story too late. It's possible to have momentous events happening without enough grounding to let the reader know why the events matter. Then it stops being Action and Motion, and becomes melodrama. This obviously isn't true for every story, but it's continually proven to be the case for mine. (Stupid book.)

Not sure how much this helps...

Aconite

08-29-2005, 02:23 AM

I judge every piece of information on whether it's consistent with what I know of the world.
While it's important to evalute new information for consistancy with personal experience, it's also important to have some form of outside validation. I'll use an example most AWers are familiar with. Many PublishAmerica authors know you can't get published with an advance-paying publisher as a first-time author, so you have to work your way up from a place like PA. That's what they know of the world. They go to websites of other authors who published with PA, and they read that you can't get published with an advance-paying publisher as a first-time author so you have to work your way up from a place like PA; they go to the PA boards and read that you can't get published with an advance-paying publisher as a first-time author so you have to work your way up from a place like PA; they're told by their agents, who are charging them $150 a month, that you can't get published with an advance-paying publisher as a first-time author so you have to work your way up from a place like PA. They believe it, because they already believe it. It's consistant with what they know of the world.

If they had any outside validation from people with publishing credentials, they'd quickly learn that you can so get published with an advance-paying publisher as a first-time author, that you don't work your way up to decent publishers from places like PA, and that you don't pay an agent out of pocket. It's not what they know of the world, but it's true. They're not going to hear this from other PA-published authors, because none of them have any experience in publishing and don't know what's true. They only know what they've heard, which they've accepted as truth.

If you're taking writing advice from people who haven't got publishing credentials, and you yourself don't have publishing credentials, how on earth do you know if what you believe and what you're hearing from them works? Theory is great, but practice is where the proof is.

Euan H.

08-29-2005, 08:21 AM

All true, but...don't forget that any advice from pro writers about how to write is really (IMHO) only what they think about how they write, and should not be taken as gospel. Frex, Stephen King (and JamesARitchie on this site) both say they write better without outlining. That doesn't mean that all writers write better without outlining. The same applies to (nearly all) advice on how to write.

If someone gives advice on how to construct a plot, and that person has publishing credits, all that means is that the method they describe worked for them. It may or may not work for anyone else.

Simply because someone does or does not have publishing credits does not automatically mean that the advice they give is good (cf. the advice given by a writer and its subsequent dissection here: http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/005212.html )