Past Tense Issue

[Cheryl_Anne]

Hi All,

current WIP is a YA Fantasy 20K and I find myself constantly switching to past tense. This is my first attempt at a novel and it's been a little slow going while I work through what works best for me etc.

One of the biggest problems I've run into is switching to the past tense which I think may be more of a tell vs. show issue where I start to narrate as opposed to letting action show what is happening.

If anyone else has had this problem, any suggestions on what helped or what to look out for is much appreciated. :) Thanks much!

[Maryn]

Let me be sure I understand: You're trying to write it in present tense, and you accidentally write parts in past?

Several approaches could work. One is to forge onward, screw the tense issue, and complete a first draft filled with such mistakes, and many more. Which is fine, because you're going to have to rewrite anyway.

Another is to go over your work daily, weekly, whatever, and fix the damned verbs you're messing up as you write.

Another is to post a sample at the appropriate SYW board, seeking help specifically with two things and two things only: verb tense and show vs. tell. While showing is important, if you show every little thing you're setting yourself up for length problems. Some telling is a good idea, and it's up to you to decide how much and what.

Any of these might do the trick. Or maybe it'll take all, plus the suggestions sure to come from others. But whatever's needed, we'd be glad to lend a hand.

Maryn, who'll remove her chipped nail polish first

[CACTUSWENDY]

IMHO I might be wrong, but..., do you think it's because in your head you already know what is going to happen? For me to stay in present tense I keep my thinking in the here and now. I don't think ahead. What is my MC/action/dialog doing right this moment is where I stay.

If you keep looking two steps ahead you will see things as if they have already taken place. (past tense) I personally love present tense. I try to make each scene unfold in the 'now' time. I hope this helps.

[Cheryl_Anne]

Thanks Maryn. Yes, your understanding is correct.

I think that the "just keep going" approach may be just what I need! I have a habit of revising constantly which is the death of forward momentum for me.

Thanks for your thoughts!

[Cheryl_Anne]

IMHO I might be wrong, but..., do you think it's because in your head you already know what is going to happen?

I think you are on to something here :)
I've never looked at it that way but I do think of the action as having already happened and now I'm telling about it. Keeping my mind in the action with the characters can change my own perspective! Much Thanks!!:D

[justAnotherWriter]

There seems to be an obsession with show don't tell and I think it needs to stop. I have never, ever read a novel that did not have a lot of telling in it.

There are no rules in writing. There are guidelines that new writers and those who are learning should understand, but that's it. The only rule is it has to be good. If it was structured and rigid and inflexible it would be computer code, not prose.

Tense switching is problematic, particularly when unintentional, but telling isn't a problem, if that's what that part of the story needs. You can always edit out the tense switches at a later time.

[maestrowork]

I second the "just keep going" approach and you can always fix things in rewrites. Try not to bog yourself down.

Also, just because you use past tense doesn't mean it's tell and not show. Tell vs. show has nothing to do with tenses -- but the way you write the story: do you show us what's happening, or describe things by showing us, or do you just tell us what we need to know? Again, that has nothing to do with tenses.

[maestrowork]

I think you are on to something here :)
I've never looked at it that way but I do think of the action as having already happened and now I'm telling about it. Keeping my mind in the action with the characters can change my own perspective! Much Thanks!!:D

That's the biggest mindset adjustment, especially if you're used to reading past tense -- things have already happened. With present tense, you will have to "live in the moment" more, even though the writer in you know what is going to happen. The NARRATOR must not know - the narrator must live in the moment and have no prior knowledge what is going to happen next. That's what makes "present tense" so much fun sometimes.

[Jamesaritchie]

Hi All,

current WIP is a YA Fantasy 20K and I find myself constantly switching to past tense. This is my first attempt at a novel and it's been a little slow going while I work through what works best for me etc.

One of the biggest problems I've run into is switching to the past tense which I think may be more of a tell vs. show issue where I start to narrate as opposed to letting action show what is happening.

If anyone else has had this problem, any suggestions on what helped or what to look out for is much appreciated. :) Thanks much!

Past tense has no more tell than present tense, and almost ninety percent of published novels are written in past tense. For me, the question is why are you trying to write your first novel in present tense when this is not the norm, and makes writing a good, publishable novel far more difficult?

[Jamesaritchie]

There seems to be an obsession with show don't tell and I think it needs to stop. I have never, ever read a novel that did not have a lot of telling in it.

There are no rules in writing. There are guidelines that new writers and those who are learning should understand, but that's it. The only rule is it has to be good. If it was structured and rigid and inflexible it would be computer code, not prose.

Tense switching is problematic, particularly when unintentional, but telling isn't a problem, if that's what that part of the story needs. You can always edit out the tense switches at a later time.

Then we have never, ever read any of the same novels.

Yes, the only rule is that it has to be good, but those guidelines are how you make it good. Ignore them, and you'll be another rejected writer.

[Cheryl_Anne]

Thanks to all for such great comments and for taking the time to respond! I appreciate the different perspectives and have some things to think about on this topic.

[kaitie]

Technically, a novel is all tell. The author is telling the story, ne? It gives information about what is going on to the reader, thus telling. The thing is, when we say show don't tell, that particular "tell" is of the boring info dump variety. If it's interesting and done well, information can be conveyed and still be a great book. If done poorly, it comes off like "telling" and inhibits the reader's ability to connect to the book and/or is boring.

Yes, there are a lot of books out there with an abundance of (what I'd consider) bad telling. I've seen that most often in fantasy, if that happens to be your genre of choice, though it's of course not alone. The book I'm reading right now is filled with the author just telling things, sometimes for pages on end, and it's actually frustrating to the point that I want to go and scribble out sentences/paragraphs. So yeah, there are definitely books out there that do it. A lot of times, though, particularly when not done all that well, it would actually have added a lot to the book to fix those scenes up.

Anyway, as to switching tenses...my first thought is to say go change it to past tense. I have a tendency to switch into present, actually, though for some stories more than others, and the first time I ever wrote present tense (which I actually despise 99% of the time lol) it was because I kept switching into it on accident and just figured the story was trying to tell me something. If you keep switching, I'd say it's worth a good, objective look. Ask yourself why the story needs to be told in present, and make sure you're not trying to force the story into a mold in which it doesn't fit.

[seun]

For me, the question is why are you trying to write your first novel in present tense when this is not the norm, and makes writing a good, publishable novel far more difficult?

Writing in present might put some people off but I don't think it automatically means selling a book will be harder. Or has anything to do with how good it is.

[Dr.Gonzo]

I don't really think past/present tense has much to do with show and tell. From my own experience the pros for present tense are easy to see when reading my novella 'The Manager'. The protagonist is on the verge of insanity for the main of the story until his issues are resolved. Past tense would not have worked for this story; in present tense his mood at the time of the scene flavoured the words he used. Also, the twist in the story worked much better with the POV character discovering it with the reader.

As for the whole 'show and tell' fiasco, I think it's widely misunderstood ... and I think the main thing with this rule is finding an answer you can be happy to live by. Being a writer you're always telling a story, so it's obvious people will get confused with this ill-worded rule. Just avoid things like this and you'll be fine:

Kate was sad.

Thank you, O godly narrator with your dull three-word sentence. Surely there must be a better way of getting this information to the reader...? A snippet of mood-flavoured dialogue, slack shoulders, it's three in the afternoon and Kate's still not dressed and is halfway through a bucket of ice-cream....? Maybe. Or maybe Kate already has depth from the excellent prose you've already written and your readers will have an idea how she's feeling because they've become familiar with her and witnessed the events leading to her being O so sad. It's possible. But you're always going to be telling to a certain degree, whichever way you decide to do it. If you're a good writer you shouldn't need to spell things out to the reader. You should have faith in the tone you are using and the words, descriptive and otherwise, that you are giving your characters to say. Your readers will get the message; they are not idiots.

[Jamesaritchie]

Writing in present might put some people off but I don't think it automatically means selling a book will be harder. Or has anything to do with how good it is.

With how good it is, probably not. With making it tougher to sell, it sure can. It does depend on genre, but all things being equal, it definitely is tougher to sell a present tense novel.

It's also much tougher for new writers to write a good one.

[seun]

It's also much tougher for new writers to write a good one.

I definitely agree with this. I did it myself with my first two books and they were both awful. Saying that, I did again with my fourth and it wasn't too bad.

[CheyElizabeth]

It does depend on genre, but all things being equal, it definitely is tougher to sell a present tense novel.


Seriously? ughh.... Now I'm questioning all 50k words of my WIP I've written :cry:

[Dr.Gonzo]

Seriously? ughh.... Now I'm questioning all 50k words of my WIP I've written :cry:

Don't worry about that. Finish it and see how it fits. It doesn't take long to change it to past tense. You could always make a fresh save and spend a few days making the changes and compare which is better. It's grunt work mainly - mindless stuff for the most part.

[seun]

Seriously? ughh.... Now I'm questioning all 50k words of my WIP I've written :cry:

Don't do that at all. Just write your book as well as you can, finish it, leave it for a few weeks and then get on to your edits and rewrites. That's all you have to worry about it.

[PeterL]

You are unconsciously switching into the past tense, because your brain knows that the events have already happened, so they should be expressed in the past tense. That is why works of fiction should be written in the past tense.

Since your mind is working in the past tense, you should abandon the unnatural attempt to tell past events in the present tense.

[seun]

You are unconsciously switching into the past tense, because your brain knows that the events have already happened, so they should be expressed in the past tense. That is why works of fiction should be written in the past tense.


Utter crap.

[dpaterso]

Bit of diplomacy would be nice, Seun.

PeterL, maybe you could elaborate on "That is why works of fiction should be written in the past tense." which doesn't ding a bell. Plenty of works of fiction are written in present tense (of course) so maybe something got lost in translation?

-Derek

[PeterL]

PeterL, maybe you could elaborate on "That is why works of fiction should be written in the past tense." which doesn't ding a bell.

I thought that my comment was perfectly clear. A novels is a fictional account of something. The account has to have been written after the fact, so the events must have occurred in the past. I didn't go into the special case of some pseculative fiction, but the grammar can become very complicated, and most people try to avoid the future perfect.

I would also go into the matter of "natural grammar", which underlies all grammar and logic, but that would be inappropriate to this forum.

Plenty of works of fiction are written in present tense (of course) so maybe something got lost in translation?


I know of very little fiction of good quality that was written in the present tense. One exception that comes to mind was Foucault's Pendulum, and the use of the present tense was rather annoying in that.

[Bufty]

Someone else said it and got a mild reprimand so...

I thought that my comment was perfectly clear. A novels is a fictional account of something. The account has to have been written after the fact, so the events must have occurred in the past. I didn't go into the special case of some pseculative fiction, but the grammar can become very complicated, and most people try to avoid the future perfect.

I would also go into the matter of "natural grammar", which underlies all grammar and logic, but that would be inappropriate to this forum.




I know of very little fiction of good quality that was written in the present tense. One exception that comes to mind was Foucault's Pendulum, and the use of the present tense was rather annoying in that.

[PeterL]

Someone else said it and got a mild reprimand so...

Then I take it that you agree that prose fiction in the present tense makes no sense at all.

[Bufty]

You take it wrong. I agree with seun.

Then I take it that you agree that prose fiction in the present tense makes no sense at all.

[aadams73]

I know of very little fiction of good quality that was written in the present tense. One exception that comes to mind was Foucault's Pendulum, and the use of the present tense was rather annoying in that.

Let me think...

Oh yes, Wolf Hall by Hillary Mantell springs to mind. That won the Man Booker prize. The Time Traveler's Wife is another, and it seemed to do rather well for itself.

[Soccer Mom]

Present tense does work beautifully for some stories, but it is friggin' difficult to write well. I wrote one novel in it and vowed never again.

I happen to love The Time Traveler's Wife, but I hated Foucault's Pendulum. I suppose that's why they make chocolate and vanilla. There is room for both in my refridgerator-- and room for both novels on the bookshelf.

[Chasing the Horizon]

Why would present be more difficult than past? We hear present all the time (it's the default for normal conversation, even here on AW). I've never written present and am genuinely curious why it would be more difficult.

[blacbird]

I don't think present tense is any more difficult inherently to write in than past tense. But the pitfalls may be a little different. In particular, with present tense, the oft-lauded sense of "intimacy" can easily get you into introspective swamps, especially in first-person. With past, it may be easier to drift into head-hopping-land. Point being, in any narrative form, you, the writer, need to consciously control your narrative, and not let it control you.

caw

[seun]

Bit of diplomacy would be nice, Seun.


Sorry. It's just when I see such a blanket statement along those lines, it gets my back up. Experienced writers know it's wrong, but it could be damaging to a newbie.

[kaitie]

I'm with Seun. It can work just fine if done well. The thing is, it has to be done so well that it doesn't feel jarring to readers who are accustomed to another style. That generally takes a certain level of skill. That being said, some people write naturally in present without any problems (I can do it, and I don't consider myself particularly skilled), and others have to work harder at it. We all have our own strengths and weaknesses.

I also don't think having a novel in present is typically going to be a deal breaker. I honestly imagine that if you had a great book and an editor was looking at it and thought it should be in past tense, they'd be more likely to say "rewrite it in past tense." If the story is great and well-written, that's a relatively minor detail.

[blacbird]

Since your mind is working in the past tense, you should abandon the unnatural attempt to tell past events in the present tense.

Since your observation by no means fits all writers or all writing, you should abandon your attempt to pontificate and be prescriptive.

caw

[Lady Ice]

Present tense is a choice, and an unusual one like that. You have to prove through your writing that it was a choice worth taking.

It is unnatural to tell the story in present tense, because at least some of it, if not most of it, has been created before you start writing. It's already happened. Therefore as a writer you have to travel back in time, before any of it was created.

Present tense is easier for a short story or even poem because you can literally write it in a stream of consciousness. You don't need intricate plot details; you can see where it takes you.
For some parts of a novel you can do that but at some point you have to take what's happened previously into account. Stream of consciousness is rarely logical, plot-wise.

[inkspatters]

Hmm, OP you're writing YA which means all the issues about present tense being harder to sell etc probably aren't as important (a lot of YA books are getting told in the present tense right now, Suzanne Collin's Hunger Games series, Lisa McMann's Wake, part of John Green's Paper Towns and Melina Marchetta's Jellicoe Road and a whole slew of others).

The issues about writing present tense without slipping into past, on the otherhand, are important. I used to do that, too, when I first decided I was going to switch to writing present tense. The only thing I can think of is to go back and make sure to edit everything into present once you're done and I think it was mentioned earlier to try and "think" in the moment more. Also, like all writing, it becomes easier with practice, so you'll probably get used to it after a while.

[stitchingirl]

I also have issues with staying within the right tense. Sometimes I can self-edit my story and quickly fix them, but sometimes my beta still has to tell me what the right tense is.

The only thing that I can think of to offer is getting a beta (which is highly recommended anyways). One who can easily pick out the grammar/punctuation/tense problems.

I've heard from other authors that sometimes they've gotten a beta who have actually tried telling the writer what sort of stories to write. A beta is there to make sure that the writing is correct, but to dictate what the author should write.

[JayG]

Present tense? Past tense? It’s an author’s choice. There’s damn little difference between, “He raised the pistol, hoping he had the nerve to go through with it, as he said…” and “I raised the pistol, hoping I had the nerve to go through with it, as I said…” and “He raises the pistol, hoping he has the nerve to go through with it, as he says…”

Tense and personal pronouns have little to do with anything but the author’s personal preference. Yes, there’s a slightly different feel for the reader, but it’s mostly cosmetic and not plot related.

I really wish every profile on this site included room for a 500 word sample of the writer’s work, so we could see the questioner’s writing, and identify the real problem. As a bonus it would also show if an advisor not only follows their own advice, but that the result is what the questioner is seeking.

But that lacking, I have to guess that the past tense problem mentioned is the one that comes when you say something like, “Susan had been thinking about that all day.” That would seem to be a violation of present tense. But it’s not. In fact, it works because it differentiates between the character’s present and past, in a way that telling a story in past tense can’t because the event being describes would be in the past tense of past tense, which can be confusing.

But that being said, any time you use “had” in that sense, you rip the reader out of the character’s “now” because only the author can go back in time. And that stops the scene-clock. If that’s the problem the Cheryl Anne is facing, one solution would be to rephrase in the present tense—the result of the “had” rather than the doing of it. It’s not a perfect solution, because there are situations where it can’t be applied, but it works in most places.

[xcomplex]

So you are trying to write in present tense? Let me just say that past tense is more liked and accepted overall so you might stick what naturally comes well but with present tense you just really have to pay attention. Its like describing your own life sort of. For example:

She types this post to answer your question, as she think she should attempt present tense someday. Past tense comes more naturally to her but maybe present tense is worth a try. She shrugs, forgets the idea and moves on.

Pretty much. Hope I didn't mess up though because I do find it lets just say unnatural compared to past. Particularly when in third person.

[Lady Ice]

The danger is it turning into a list, I agree. A way of breaking that up in past would be to show characters' reflections on action. Too much of that in present and you might as well be writing past because that's where your character is.

[Julie Worth]

I really wish every profile on this site included room for a 500 word sample of the writer’s work, so we could see the questioner’s writing, and identify the real problem. As a bonus it would also show if an advisor not only follows their own advice, but that the result is what the questioner is seeking.


You can get an idea on the SYW threads.

[Bufty]

I don't mean to be insulting, Jay, but you are forcing the question - where's your sample?


I really wish every profile on this site included room for a 500 word sample of the writer’s work, so we could see the questioner’s writing, and identify the real problem. As a bonus it would also show if an advisor not only follows their own advice, but that the result is what the questioner is seeking.

[JayG]

I don't mean to be insulting, Jay, but you are forcing the question - where's your sample?

No insult taken. The link is right there on my home page. There are samples of my writing, my feeble attempts at poetry, a deconstructed scene, and some articles with writing tips—some of them actually useful.

[mscelina]

I really wish every profile on this site included room for a 500 word sample of the writer’s work, so we could see the questioner’s writing, and identify the real problem. As a bonus it would also show if an advisor not only follows their own advice, but that the result is what the questioner is seeking.
.

*snipped for brevity*

No one here has to prove themselves to some imaginary standard you've preset for them. There are many, many writers on this site that do not have to provide writing samples as a result of their publishing history and professional work--or in some cases because of the years of helpful, courteous assistance they've offered to countless young writers. Remarks like this in a basic writing questions forum are not only unnecessary but counterproductive. Kindly refrain from slapping everyone over the head with your imagined superiority and offer advice with the purpose of assisting a writer who is not as far along as you instead of stepping on their little heads so you can reach your literary halo--you know: just to be different.

Thank you.

Back to the person this thread is really about--

One of the most common problems I'm seeing in the slush pile these days are awkward attempts at present tense or curiously skewed attempts to jump back and forth between present and past tenses. First off, keep it simple is probably the best advice for anyone in regards to writing. Past tense is inherently more comfortable for a young writer. However, the best advice to follow IMO is to get the story on paper and worry about the tense later. That's what revisions are for. So write the story, let it sit for a couple of days and then pick it back up and read the first few chapters out loud. You should be able to detect not only which tense is better for the story, but whether it is effective with the narrative voice of the piece.

My bet is that past tense will work better for you.

Good luck to you.

[JayG]

No one here has to prove themselves to some imaginary standard you've preset for them.

You miss the point. If you and someone else were to give conflicting suggestions for improvement, I’d want to see which of you I’d rather write like. I’d also like to see if you follow your own advice, the result of that, and that your writing seemed more professional than mine is at present.

Someone without a clue of how to write, but with the certainty that they’re a writing genius gives their advice with the same sincerity as do those who actually know. Sure, you can say to take the advice that you like best, but if you knew what was best you wouldn’t be asking what to do. And, lots of things that sound reasonable actually aren’t when you have all the information. With something to look at, you can at least see what the advice looks like in practice. Surely you don't object to the people you’re advising being able to read a sample of your work? Hell, if they like it, maybe they’ll buy a copy. Win/win.

Remarks like this in a basic writing questions forum are not only unnecessary but counterproductive.

Attacking another writer in such a forum for holding an opinion about a possible site improvement, when there are emails and messages available, would seem far more counterproductive—especially when given as a fiat, with no discussion.

[Chasing the Horizon]

How about we don't derail this thread?

Just a friendly suggestion.

[Lady Ice]

I think it's good to provide an example to clarify a point but the worst thing (I've been guilty of it too) is treating it as if it is an indication of the quality of that writer's work. Even if it is actually an extract from their work and someone doesn't like it, if it proves the point that the poster has tried to make then it's succeeded.

[mscelina]

It's not a good idea to make a site whose primary purpose is the support and education of writers of all ages to implement a policy that will satisfy an arbitrary concept of "good" writing. We are all experts; we are all novices. We all have much to learn.

AW is here to help people--not to make some feel superior while others are made to feel incompetent and no number of writing samples will ever bring a community like this to a determination of what is 'good' writing. To suggest, after less than 200 posts, that this forum is in need of someone's 'expert' opinion on the best way to function is not only ridiculous, it's insulting.

We are not here to judge. We are here to help and to learn. It seems to me that no one here should have any problem with that. If you or anyone else wants to look at my writing samples in order to gauge my qualifications to be here or to offer advice, they are more than welcome to buy my books and judge for themselves--or buy the books I've edited, which is now well over a hundred--and judge from that. Until that happens, however, I shall continue to offer the input I've learned from experience and from AW sages like Uncle Jim or Medievalist or any of the wonderful and selfless writers on this site who give so kindly of their knowledge without prejudice or precondition.

I would seriously advise you--and anyone else--to take those opportunities as well.

[HAWKEYE]

It's not a good idea to make a site whose primary purpose is the support and education of writers of all ages to implement a policy that will satisfy an arbitrary concept of "good" writing. We are all experts; we are all novices. We all have much to learn.

AW is here to help people--not to make some feel superior while others are made to feel incompetent and no number of writing samples will ever bring a community like this to a determination of what is 'good' writing. To suggest, after less than 200 posts, that this forum is in need of someone's 'expert' opinion on the best way to function is not only ridiculous, it's insulting.

We are not here to judge. We are here to help and to learn. It seems to me that no one here should have any problem with that. If you or anyone else wants to look at my writing samples in order to gauge my qualifications to be here or to offer advice, they are more than welcome to buy my books and judge for themselves--or buy the books I've edited, which is now well over a hundred--and judge from that. Until that happens, however, I shall continue to offer the input I've learned from experience and from AW sages like Uncle Jim or Medievalist or any of the wonderful and selfless writers on this site who give so kindly of their knowledge without prejudice or precondition.

I would seriously advise you--and anyone else--to take those opportunities as well.

Did JayG really get banned? If so that's pathetic.