The Un-Heroine

[heyjude]

Okay, so I'm a bit concerned about my new MC. We know that what publishers/readers are looking for is strong women, right? Well, Honey is not strong. She starts out as kind of weak-willed, scared, and in over her head. The first thing that happens to her is that she's saved by the hero.

My intention is to see her grow through the book, to watch her go from wimpy to strong, able to take care of herself, but I wonder if the reader will go along for the ride if she starts out this way.

Let's assume the plot is compelling and the writing engaging. :) Do you think it's an automatic drop-the-book to start out with this kind of character?

[alleycat]

I don't think it's a problem, as long as the reader can see her "potential" fairly early on; that could be as simple as a short scene where we see her overcome some small problem by being stronger than even she thinks she is.

And, while Agatha Christie's Miss Marple wasn't weak-willed or scared, she certainly doesn't fit the traditional "manly" MC mold.

[Spring]

Interesting, HJ. This is what I'm dealing with too. My heroine is not strong or sassy. She's in the situations she's in because of fear and necessity, not an adventuring soul. I'm trying to make her NOT annoying or whiny, and I hope she comes across that way. She will prove herself by the end of the book, but again, her actions are driven by fear. So...ah...I don't know...


If your plot is compelling and the writing is engaging, then I think you'll rope in your readers and have no problem pulling it off.

[heyjude]

Alleycat, that's a great suggestion and might help with another problem I'm having at the beginning. Thanks!

Spring, I'm reading your WIP right now and she doesn't come off as weak at all. She seems very brave to me. Once I tweak my beginning, I'll send you my first chapter and you can see the difference between our gals.

[alleycat]

One of the more recent, fairly popular unhero type of MC that comes to mind is the Monk character on TV. He was even afraid of gum on the bottom of his shoes, I believe.

[Stanmiller]

Heyjude,

One way to have her firm up in a hurry (besides silicone implants) is to have your wimpy MC decide to get a CCW and have her start carrying a weapon after she's saved by the MC. That'll firm her up quite a bit.

No joke. Dealing with issues of concealed carry changes your view of the world. Then she can save the hero in the grand finale.

If your WIP is set in an earlier era, pick the weapon of the era. One of the coolest female chars around is Zena. Sword and bow expert. Silicone implants, too.

--Stan :evil

[Ken Hoss]

One of the more recent, fairly popular unhero type of MC that comes to mind is the Monk character on TV. He was even afraid of gum on the bottom of his shoes, I believe.


Loved that show. And I think he was pantophobic. (Fear of everything.) That, and just a little bit obsessive complusive. :D

[heyjude]

Heyjude,

One way to have her firm up in a hurry (besides silicone implants) is to have your wimpy MC decide to get a CCW and have her start carrying a weapon after she's saved by the MC. That'll firm her up quite a bit.
--Stan :evil

Thanks, Stan. This has been my plan, to get her armed. I'm going to (gulp) take a gun safety course. I've never so much as held a gun, so I'll be learning along with Honey. Hopefully it will give it authenticity. :)

[Good Word]

My MC starts out scared to death--not strong, but becomes so over the course of the book.

Is your MC likable? I think that's a really important factor.

[heyjude]

Good question, Good Word. :) I'm afraid her wimpiness makes her unlikeable. I'm going to farm out the first chapter to betas once it's polished up and make sure. I guess that will tell the tale, huh?

[Stanmiller]

Thanks, Stan. This has been my plan, to get her armed. I'm going to (gulp) take a gun safety course. I've never so much as held a gun, so I'll be learning along with Honey. Hopefully it will give it authenticity. :)

Keep your finger out of the triggerguard until ready to fire and you'll do fine. There's plenty here that do carry, so you'll have lots of feedback if you want.

--Stan

[kaitie]

Gosh I hope so because my last one was one of those. Total follower, let herself be manipulated and conned into things by everyone, and by the end of it she was making her own choices and what not.

I do think there's an audience for it, though. I mean, strong women are fine, but not everyone is a strong woman, and variety is good, too, right. :)

[jeseymour]

I'm going to counter with a question to think about. If your main character starts out strong and confident, where's the growth? Part of the arc of the story is the growth of the main character, the change. You don't want her to start out strong and get weak, do you?

[heyjude]

It's a good point, jesey. I'm just worried that the reader won't want to dig in with her. Which is where Good Word's point comes in--she needs to be likable enough that they will.

[backslashbaby]

I have a root-for-the-underdog character, myself :) The Monk example is awesome! He's annoying, but he means so well that you have to love him.

Mine is kind of a Janet in Rocky Horror, or Alice in Wonderland kind of trope. So the strange things she encounters seem even stranger, since she hasn't seen much.

[Namatu]

I'd think scared and wimpy doesn't have to equal weak unless it's portrayed as such. Example: Gunman enters a room and un-heroine is saved from certain death by hero. If you have her flailing around and screaming, putting herself in more danger, yeah, that's weak. If you have her hit the ground and hide behind a nice solid desk, that's smart. Maybe later on she can take the gunman out with some snazzy-fu, but until she learns it, smart's the way to go.

To continue with this scenario, if she's going to freak out in the aftermath, that's perfectly acceptable. But she'll have to pull it back and swallow it down before it starts to annoy both the reader and the hero (and maybe the un-heroine too). Make sure she has self-awareness of these scared and wimpy moments.

Layer actions v. thoughts/feelings well, and determine what moments are going to be turning points for the un-heroine. That tends to be where I falter and need to revise - thoughts/feelings, not enough of them at pivotal moments.

[MarkEsq]

I think the distinction you have to make is between weak and scared (which is okay) and passive (which is not). Monk may be a paranoid, compulsive, scaredy-cat but he does stuff. He shows us the strength of his intellect, which enables him to bypass the stuff he can't handle, and to overcome the bad guys.

Similarly, it's okay for your MC to be afraid. But you must give her some sort of impetus, even use the fear itself as impetus. The death-knell for a character, in my book, is one who is on the page for things to happen to. That passivity equals boring and even if there's development I (and an agent/editor) will have a hard time getting past the initial problem.

I hope that makes some sense, and I don't mean to suggest that having your MC rescued at the beginning automatically makes her passive, because it doesn't. It could, but it doesn't have to. :) If you would do me the honor, I'd love to beta the first chapter and give you my thoughts.

[heyjude]

Very good advice! Thank you so much! Yes, Namatu, she is the hide-behind-the-desk kind. And Mark, such a good point about making fear the impetus. That fear, combined with the anger, is going to drive her. Right to the gun range, haha.

[MarkEsq]

And Mark, such a good point about making fear the impetus. That fear, combined with the anger, is going to drive her. Right to the gun range, haha.

Then I think you are fine. A woman who is scared and has a gun in her hand is someone we can empathize with and root for. And kinda hot....

[Stanmiller]

MarkEsq said...
"Then I think you are fine. A woman who is scared and has a gun in her hand is someone we can empathize with and root for. And kinda hot...."


Jeez. Don't let my wife hear you say that. She'll spend even more on ammo than she does now.
:evil

[bigb]

Armed women are pretty hot, maybe a tatoo as well, by the end of the story she will be smoking hot.

I like characters that kind of get pushed to be stronger or more confident, even if they are doing the pushing. It seems more believable, like the soccer mom next door could kick some ass if the situation called for it.

[STKlingaman]

In my second complete story - Time Sweep
My hero became a heroine, but not until a
third of the story in. Yet she kicks a$$, subjects
herself to a near death experience, etc...
I was truly amazed at what I put her
through, and to what she became.
It's a light fantasy/sci-fi action thriller with
a (something we'd all like to believe) unique twist.

[heyjude]

Okay, my extremely helpful friends, I'm reviving this thread so that you can tell me:

When my heroine says "I want a gun," what kind of gun is she going to get? The hero of the story is a former Marine, and he will be the one helping her, if that matters at all.

Thank you!

[MarkEsq]

The "Baby Glock", the Glock 26, is a 9mm and is perfect for a woman.

And you can get it in pink cammo (http://www.jimsgunsupply.com/DuraCoat/dc/Duracoat_glock_bdupink_51609.jpg)... :)

[Stanmiller]

Okay, my extremely helpful friends, I'm reviving this thread so that you can tell me:

When my heroine says "I want a gun," what kind of gun is she going to get? The hero of the story is a former Marine, and he will be the one helping her, if that matters at all.

Thank you!

Hey, Jude, :evil here.
Former Marine, eh? Well, that stuffs the nines. No wimpy nine millimeter mouse guns for the Corps. Most likely he will recommend the Government Model 1911A1, 'cause that's what he used (if he was in 1st MEU or Force Recon). The iconic 'forty-five automatic.' Either in the full-size model or the shorter, lighter (but more recoil) Commander model.

Did she get her CCW? Some women have a hard time carrying something that size, because the flare of the hip pushes the muzzle out, making the hammer dig into the side of the body just below the ribs. There are purses designed for concealed carry. Put some Google-fu to work on Galco. They make some nice ones, along with female-specific holsters.

Shooting? The .45 ACP is a low pressure round and has more of a shove than a snap like the higher pressure .40 and 10mm rounds. They are comfortable and controllable. Mrs Stan is 5-5, 110, with small hands and she shoots the full-size Colt just fine, but does prefer her Browning Hi-Power. (Which Mr Stan keeps trying to get away from her, because he likes it too.)

If concealability is an issue, Kahr makes some of the smallest semi-autos around in useful calibers (9mm and up). But keep in mind the smaller the gun, the more difficult they are to shoot, with more recoil and muzzle blast. that's especially true of the small-frame revolvers (S&W J-frames, for example.) They are really experts' weapons.

See Folkchick's thread in Story Research: Experts and Interviewees Wanted for more along these lines.

--Stan

[cbenoi1]

> She starts out as kind of weak-willed, scared, and in over her head.

I remember Evans in Crichton's State of Fear. The problem with wimps is that they stay wimps in the reader's mind for a looong time. Even after I finished the novel and Evans had shot his way out of trouble, he was still - and by far - a wimp with a gun.

The thing with a character like Evans is that wimpy and scared were his natural state and his potential to become a hero never came across. If there is something you can do to avoid this trap is to have your character's natural state to be a few steps beyond that point, but with something holding her back into a wimpy state. And once that barrier is smashed, then her progression comes naturally.

Just my usual C$0.019243.

-cb

[heyjude]

You guys rock. Thank you SO much.

(Is it wrong that just the words "Baby Glock" turn me on?)

[Stanmiller]

You guys rock. Thank you SO much.

(Is it wrong that just the words "Baby Glock" turn me on?)

Yes. That's wrong in sooo many many ways. Her he-man USMC gun guru will turn up his nose at 'that plastic pistol,' calling it $%^& Tupperware.

Psst, Glock does make a small format model of their .45. I don't know the model number but a bit of Google-fu will pop it out. That could be her BUG (backup gun)
:evil

[jeseymour]

I have a Colt Commander in 38 super. Lighter and shorter than a full size Colt 1911, which is what my MC carries, (he's a former Marine) but he's bigger than I am. My Colt is the best gun ever. :D

[kaitie]

http://www.thegunzone.com/images/ar_kitty.jpg

:D

Anyway, I'd say something small and lightweight that's easy to conceal. I uh...would have to go look one up because I don't know guns.

[heyjude]

Yes. That's wrong in sooo many many ways. Her he-man USMC gun guru will turn up his nose at 'that plastic pistol,' calling it $%^& Tupperware.


Permission to use this as an exact quote from my guy? :tongue

And Mark? Pink cammo? And kaitie? Hello Kitty? I'm trying to toughen her up, people! :D

[Stanmiller]

heyjude,

Permission granted. That's a common term among a certain crowd when talking about Glocks. Not me. I never use that term. Ever. Are you paying attention, Glock fanatics? (they're a sensitive bunch.)

kaitie, where on earth did you find that...thing?

--:evil

[Stanmiller]

I have a Colt Commander in 38 super. Lighter and shorter than a full size Colt 1911, which is what my MC carries, (he's a former Marine) but he's bigger than I am. My Colt is the best gun ever. :D

Hi, je,

That's a good round, if somewhat uncommon. Are you finding ammo for it? The supply dried up for a while, even worse than 9mm and .40.

--Stan

[kaitie]

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3321/4618469761_fbeb29954a.jpg

I made it better! :D

I should really be in bed.

[heyjude]

Good night, kaitie. :D

[Stanmiller]

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3321/4618469761_fbeb29954a.jpg

I made it better! :D

I should really be in bed.

Arrgh! Stop that! It's indecent.

[backslashbaby]

Yeah, is it his gun? If he's buying her one, he might -- might -- get a 'woman's gun', but he might just have her suck it up, as military folks are wont to do ;)

We're a Glock family. I don't know which Glocks, cos I'm not into guns, but I shot it as a kid. I was better with rifles back then cos handguns are heavy for a kid's hand.

I bet she'll be fine with a regular gun. Is she weak at all at this point for some reason? Generally, women don't need different guns, I don't think (to shoot, not conceal). My prissiest friend had strong enough wrists to shoot a 22 just fine. Her aim was even good!

What you want out of the plot can matter a lot to which way you go, but I thought I'd note that we don't need extra-light, tiny, pink or Hello Kitty for any particular physique reason ;)

[heyjude]

I'm guessing that Garrett will give Honey a gun from his own personal arsenal, but I'm open to him having something a bit more "girly" around, maybe from an ex? Do armed women leave behind weapons like lipstick? :D

Or he could buy her one. I'm so lame, I don't even know how to go about this, and all my gun-friendly friends are in a different state so I have no one to take me... I'm going to take those shooting lessons this summer though. Honey and I are on the same learning curve. :)

[Namatu]

Mrs Stan is 5-5, 110, with small hands and she shoots the full-size Colt just fine, but does prefer her Browning Hi-Power. (Which Mr Stan keeps trying to get away from her, because he likes it too.)Oh, good. This is the one my MC uses, randomly selected after Google-fu. I'm so pleased my research bears legitimate fruit!

Someone take the PhotoShop away from kaitie. (Although the green one's kinda pretty with the monster thing and little flowers.)

As far as the pink cammo Baby Glock, thank you, MarkEsq, for giving my MC a perfect joke to play on her partner! It will be excellent payback. :evil

[Good Word]

This sort of relates to the hilarious derailment of this thread, but also the original thread intent...

I know I've said it somewhere (so forgive me for repeating), but I think an example of a good MC who is weak but shows growth is Sara Connor in Terminator. She starts out scared and wimpy and becomes the mother of the future.

(It's related to the derailment because she becomes quite handy with various forms of weaponry.)

[Stanmiller]

I'm guessing that Garrett will give Honey a gun from his own personal arsenal, but I'm open to him having something a bit more "girly" around, maybe from an ex? Do armed women leave behind weapons like lipstick? :D

Or he could buy her one. I'm so lame, I don't even know how to go about this, and all my gun-friendly friends are in a different state so I have no one to take me... I'm going to take those shooting lessons this summer though. Honey and I are on the same learning curve. :)

Hey,
I don't know about your guy's spouses, but if my wife left me, the first thing she'd pack would be her Browning, then mine, and my 1911, and the .357s, then my Airweights...I'd better shut up.

If your MC carries, the carry piece has to be legal, with all the necessary paper for the state of choice. Some states are lenient to the point that handguns can be traded privately with no restrictions, some are so strict that nobody but the perps have 'em. Put your Google-fu to work on your state. Try this place to get you started. http://www.nraila.org/gunlaws/

(I know it's the NRA, but it's research, right? Just stay away from the white supremacists sites. You do not want to get on their mailing lists. Truly weird stuff arrives in your inbox if you do.)

:evil

[heyjude]

Thanks Stan! I've used that website before, it's really helpful! (And I promise to stay away from the unsavory people of the web. :tongue)

[kaitie]

Oh, good. This is the one my MC uses, randomly selected after Google-fu. I'm so pleased my research bears legitimate fruit!

Someone take the PhotoShop away from kaitie. (Although the green one's kinda pretty with the monster thing and little flowers.)

As far as the pink cammo Baby Glock, thank you, MarkEsq, for giving my MC a perfect joke to play on her partner! It will be excellent payback. :evil

Cthulhu! It's Cthulhu! You better hope he doesn't eat your brain for the insult...*

:tongue


*such a cute widdle Cthulhu, though...

[Namatu]

Cthulhu! It's Cthulhu! You better hope he doesn't eat your brain for the insult...* Kinda looked like a little squid blobby to me.

[kaitie]

:ROFL:

[Pery Machado]

Just getting back to the thread for a moment from the funny stuff above (love the Hello Kitty gun, brilliant stuff) I actually have a character who starts off weak and becomes a hero at the end (okay, so it's a guy, but the principle applies). He considers himself a coward, surrenders to enemy troops on the first day upon reaching the front lines (within ten minutes, really) and throughout the book he says he's chicken, that there's no way he's going to jump from a plane, disguise himself, go deeper into enemy territory, butat the end of it, he does all these things and what's more, he does it like a pro, which surrprises everyone, espcially himself! I think to have a weak character become strong throughout the story, you have to take leaps outside the comfort zone of that character and slowly build up confidence, just like you would if you were that character.

Hope this helps

[aadams73]

Strength comes in many forms, and we rarely realize our own strength until after we've dealt with disaster or adversity and survived. The ability to kick ass is just one type of strength--one that can also be quickly turned into a weakness if a character doesn't possess the inner fortitude with which to temper it.

That goes for the smart-mouthed heroine, too. She walks a fine edge between mouthy and bitchy, and unless she has some restraint, what might seem like a I-don't-take-crap-from-anyone attitude (usually seen as a positive) can just as easily drag her into Too Stupid To Live territory if she mouths off at the wrong person and puts her life in jeopardy.

If you show your character having other virtues and strengths (perhaps she's resourceful or optimistic), and, as others have said, likeability, it won't be a problem getting readers to warm up to her. Not every heroine can be an ass-kicker. Not every heroine needs to be or should be.

[Namatu]

Well said!

[cbuck1]

I wrote a screenplay once whose heroine was sort of modeled after Ingrid Bergman in Gaslight. The idea was to make her appear weak and scared until the ending twist when you realize it was all an act to lure the villain into a deathtrap. Didn't work. No one empathized with her until the last scene, if they stayed with it that long.

The trick is to give her some sort of strength that helps the reader overlook her weaknesses. She can be scared and fearful as long as she's also funny or insightful or caring or extremely adept at something. Give the reader enough reason to like her and they'll root for her to overcome her more negative traits.

[heyjude]

Sorry, cbuck. :) It sounds like a great idea though! And I love that you know what Gaslight is. So many people don't!

You know, I thought about making Honey funny (hey, that rhymes) but it diluted the pace of the book. She has a talent for interior decorating, which her husband derides as a stupid hobby... And she definitely has a big heart.