All Teachers at a Rhode Island High School Fired

[Lyra Jean]

I was watching "The Morning Express with Robin Meade" this morning and heard about this. Every single teacher at a local Rhode Island high school was fired because test scores and graduation rates were so bad. The commissioner apparently said that teachers need to give extra tutoring after classes but teachers refused because there was no extra pay.

Some teachers will be able to get rehired but they have to reapply.

I didn't see this topic posted yet so I was excited to post this. This is my first time starting a thread in P&CE

Edited to add: Here is a link to the story Central Falls High School Teachers to Receive Pink Slips (http://www.wpri.com/dpp/news/central-falls-high-school-teachers-to-receive-pink-slips)

[Don]

Part of me wants to say "Gee, that seems like a collectivist mindset to me. There wasn't one single teacher in the whole school worth saving?"

But the other part says "Too bad we can't do that with congress." :D

[MattW]

We had a similar case in NJ recently.

What about the administrators? Don't they share some of the blame?

While we are at it, can we fire the parents too? Aren't they ultimately responsible for their children?

Perhaps the children should be decimated, literally. That would improve test scores for sure, yes? And that's the real goal, not to create educated and functional members of society.

[Lyra Jean]

The commissioner said it was about changing the culture of the school and that they are even looking for a new principle. I'll find a link to the story.

[Norman D Gutter]

Ah, too many years since I moved away from Little Rhody, my native state. At least it wasn't Cranston East. I'll contact some old high school buddies and see what their take is on it.

Maybe that would be a good model for the voters to follow in November with the State Legislature.

ETA: Oh, I see Don and I are of the same mindest today.

NDG

[Gretad08]

IMO there are enormous problems with firing based on test scores. Numero uno being, no matter how hard you try, you can't legislate intelligence.

Last school year a friend of mine had the top test scores in the district through the whole year...this year she's in the bottom 50th percent b/c her kids are not the greatest. She's tried everything...staying late, offering tutoring, and anything else she can think of. Does this mean she's a bad teacher b/c on paper her numbers aren't high? Not in my book.

[charlotte49ers]

So, so, so the wrong way to handle this situation.

[Lyra Jean]

It's just another reason for me not to become a teacher.

[mscelina]

It occurs to me that perhaps they should have considered firing the parents.

Or the kids.

[Don]

It occurs to me that perhaps they should have considered firing the parents.

Or the kids.
Good dog, don't give them ideas, Celina. :D

[backslashbaby]

I'd have to see the details, of course, but it says they were fired for refusing an improvement plan. Hmmmm.

Superintendent Frances Gallo announced this month she would fire the teachers at the low-performing school for refusing an improvement plan. It includes an extra 25 minutes in the school day, required teachers to offer tutoring to students and forced teachers to get two weeks of summer training.

The teachers' union says it wants more pay for the additional work. Teachers, along with their supporters, held a rally at 4 p.m. on Tuesday to protest the decision.


It's not necessarily insane. It depends on what is actually happening and where the problems lie, imho. And the applicant pool in the area :)

[blacbird]

ETA: Oh, I see Don and I are of the same mindest today.

Duly noted is that you qualify this statement with "today".

caw

[veinglory]

If an improvement plan involved me staying, unpaid, after work for remedial lessons I might baulk too.

[stormie]

Sad that they all would be fired. Education begins at home. Yes, there are some poor teachers ( I taught for ten years and could name a few who shouldn't be in the profession), but then, there are poor employees in other professions too. The majority are good.

As for teaching nowadays teachers have to put up with parents who think their children walk on water, administration that generally caters to the parents in case of lawsuits, and a ton of paperwork and workshops and meetings that they are not compensated for. And then there is teaching to the test.

If someone who is not a teacher thinks it's easy, they should spend a week in a classroom as a teacher, no matter what grade.

[Haggis]

If an improvement plan involved me staying, unpaid, after work for remedial lessons I might baulk too.

Yet that's very common in business. In fact, if one refuses to put in more than the required 40 hours, he or she can be considered someone who is not a team member. And, yes, it can lead to firings.

[SPMiller]

Damn. Why did Bush have to propose that NCLB bill?

[Julie Worth]

They can either fire the teachers as they did here, or cheat on the tests as a school recently got caught doing in Atlanta, or just get rid of Bush's No-Moron-Left-Behind program.

[Perks]

Sad that they all would be fired. Education begins at home. Yes, there are some poor teachers ( I taught for ten years and could name a few who shouldn't be in the profession), but then, there are poor employees in other professions too. The majority are good.

I've been volunteering in public schools for the past five years and from what I've seen, the problem is not the teachers. It's the precious, too-individual-by-half, self-esteem-bubbled, oh-so-special, spoiled, entitled, wii-addicted, television junkies in the student desks. Student behavior is disgraceful and it's a hair-tearing feat to get command of a classroom to teach a lesson.

So either the parents are falling down on the job, or something in the processed foods is making them all slightly insane.

[mscelina]

It only took one year of teaching for me to realize that I just don't have the right combination of talents and personality traits to do the job. *shrug* My students got good grades on their tests, but we hated each other cordially. *gee, wonder why?* I have all kinds of respect for teachers, who work very hard at a basically thankless job for peanuts and then get blamed because their video game addicted, text messaging, pron downloading, stealing meds from their grandparents' medicine cabinet students can't cut the mustard on a standardized test I could have passed blindfolded in the third grade.

That being said, this is just another consequence of a society that is increasingly dependent upon instant gratification and the ideology that we are *owed* something for nothing. Some kids pull themselves out of this pit, whether because of good, interested parenting or single-minded ambition, but the majority of them have become accustomed to skating along at levels far beneath what they are capable of doing because no one, not even the kids or their parents, cares about the outcome.

[Gretad08]

I think we can safely blame NCLB on both parties. For once all are equally guilty.

[Perks]

Two ladies I was speaking with were incredulous that I wasn't lobbying (read: harassing) the school administrators to secure a particular teacher for my daughter as she went into the third grade. For one, I told them, the school specifically pleads that we not do this. They can't accommodate the requests anyway and the frantic back and forth messaging bogs down the process. But more importantly, my children need to learn to extract what they need from teacher relationships and classroom chemisty of all flavors.

The women clearly disapproved. And surprise, surprise, their children are assholes.

Teachers have a really tough job.

[Shadow_Ferret]

The commissioner apparently said that teachers need to give extra tutoring after classes but teachers refused because there was no extra pay.


Wow. Really? I guess I didn't realize it's just a 9-5 job to them. I thought they had more dedication and concern for the students then that.

[TerzaRima]

Shadow, I think that's a tad unfair. Many teachers I know (and I was raised by two) work on lesson plans at night and pay for many supplies out of their own pocket, while making meagre salaries. Our culture seems to expect this kind of devotion, because it's for the childrrreeeen.

[stormie]

Shadow, I think that's a tad unfair. Many teachers I know (and I was raised by two) work on lesson plans at night and pay for many supplies out of their own pocket, while making meagre salaries. Our culture seems to expect this kind of devotion, because it's for the childrrreeeen.
And when they do work at night, it's usually at least until 9pm. And they do work in the summer too, getting ready for the next year. And many times pay for supplies out-of-pocket.

[mscelina]

People who make more than the paltry 35k a year a lot of teachers receive bitch and whine and moan if their job cuts into their personal time. Why should teachers be any different? Seriously--are they somehow expected to be held to a higher standard of dedication and concern because they willingly chose a profession that puts them into contact with the young? That's an unfair expectation to have, imo, especially since quite a few teachers have to hold second jobs in order to eke out their miniscule and completely inadequate pay.

[backslashbaby]

Don't get me wrong; I'm not saying a thing about most teachers, and certainly not all teachers.

In one school, it's possible that our view on what we have seen doesn't apply. It's possible it does. The school may have a strange and unworkable way of doing things. It might not.

It's small enough that it wouldn't be that hard to find out what's really going on. Would that ever make firing all of the teachers and allowing them to reapply a reasonable thing to do? I've seen it in business. It totally depends on the actual environment.

I have seen teachers that needed to be fired, btw. That says nothing about other teachers. If you could fire the parents, that'd really help :) But you can't.

[DeleyanLee]

A teacher can only teach. It's the student that must do the work of learning. The best teacher can't teach an unwilling student.

My experience is that most people (kids and adults) don't know how to learn anymore. People expect that ability is as ubitious as common sense.

[clintl]

Shadow, I think that's a tad unfair. Many teachers I know (and I was raised by two) work on lesson plans at night and pay for many supplies out of their own pocket, while making meagre salaries. Our culture seems to expect this kind of devotion, because it's for the childrrreeeen.

I will likely be buying supplies this evening for a lab, in fact.

[rhymegirl]

I don't think that article mentioned that Central Falls is one of the poorest cities in our state. It's not the teachers. A lot of the kids probably don't go to school every day or simply drop out. There's a high crime rate in CF.

[brainstorm77]

The teachers here have a union behind them, this would not fly.

[backslashbaby]

A new federal requirement mandates that states must identify their lowest-performing 5 percent of schools and fix them by using one of four methods: school closure; takeover by a charter or school-management organization; transformation; or “turnaround” which requires the entire school staff be fired and not more than half be rehired in the fall.

Gallo and the union initially agreed that they wanted to embrace the transformation model — the only one that does not require that the teaching staff be replaced.

But the two parties could not reach agreement on the details of what transformation would entail.

Gallo wanted the union to sign off on six conditions that required teachers to spend more time helping students and with colleagues in professional training sessions. Gallo said she could only afford to pay teachers $30 per hour for some of the extra responsibilities — $1,800 for two weeks of training in the summer, and potentially $1,620 for weekly 90-minute afterschool sessions, if she could secure grant money. Teachers, Gallo said, would not be compensated for the other changes: lengthening the school day by 25 minutes; formalizing a tutoring schedule; eating lunch with students once a week; and submitting to more rigorous evaluations starting March 1.

Union officials said they wanted to be paid for more of the duties and wanted to receive a higher pay rate –– $90 per hour.

But Thursday, another barrier between the two sides came to light: job security....



Am I crazy, or was the union demanding that not one teacher be fired?

Sessums said she recollected the negotiations differently. “Yes, there was discussion about the 80 percent,” Sessums said. “But she could not guarantee to all our members that they would keep their jobs.”

The Providence paper reports that the average base salary of the teachers is $72,000 to $78,000, not counting benefits. The median income for a household in the town of Central Falls is $22,628.


eta: sorry!
http://www.projo.com/education/content/central_falls_letters_02-19-10_2DHGHET_v36.3a65dd5.html
Hmmmm....

[Shadow_Ferret]

Our culture seems to expect this kind of devotion, because it's for the childrrreeeen.
Exactly. Because that's also the reason they give for why they became teachers in the first place.
People who make more than the paltry 35k a year a lot of teachers receive bitch and whine and moan if their job cuts into their personal time.

I've been unemployed for a year. 35k a year doesn't seem paltry at all. Seems like a fortune at this point. Sorry if I'm less than sympathetic.


My experience is that most people (kids and adults) don't know how to learn anymore. People expect that ability is as ubitious as common sense.

Maybe they weren't TAUGHT how to learn.

Am I crazy, or was the union demanding that not one teacher be fired?

That's how teachers' unions work. In our school system, I can't ever recall hearing of a teacher being fired. They merely get transfered to another school within the system to continue with their bad teaching.

[TerzaRima]

Shadow, the man/woman who fixes your car is probably in his line of work because he enjoys it. The next time you need repairs, please inform him (or her) that he has a duty to work for free and report back. I'll be on tenterhooks to see how that one goes.

[backslashbaby]

There's a big difference between free and wanting $90 an hour to tutor your students after class twice a week.

They are getting paid $72,000 to $78,000 base before benefits already. And their kids are failing beyond belief. Something's not adding up, that's for sure.

Why such surprise that in one school the teachers (and/or their union) could be a part of what doesn't add up?

[Toothpaste]

You know, I like Shadow's way of thinking. It's like when Lawyers bill for all the hours they've worked for you, well that can really add up. Surely they love their jobs right? Surely they don't mind taking it home with them? Why should I pay them to do something that they signed up to do?

Honestly Shadow, if I go into detail about what a teacher does with all their time, most of which is unpaid, will that make a difference to you? If I told you my father left the house every day at 7am got home at 5pm, and continued to mark all night (and was only paid for school hours), would that help you at all? That he chaperoned school dances, directed plays, etc, all again not being paid for it. That he actually apologised to me in his retirement speech for feeling like he hadn't spent enough time with me (which was so untrue, he managed (and still is) to be the most attentive father). And besides all of that he worked in a profession that no one respects, that everyone thinks they know better how to do than the people who were trained for it, and where people think you are lazy and don't do any work and that, some people, think they should do everything for free. If I told you all that would any of it make a difference? I don't think honestly it would. You seem determined to think ill of teachers.

It's truly fascinating actually. I've been arguing on the side of teachers for forever, and friends who once took the opposing view who now happen to be teachers themselves have totally made a 180. Why? Because no one really understands the amount of work involved in teaching until they do it. No one realises the energy it takes to just stand in front of a class alone, let alone everything else. Teaching is damn hard. And gets no respect. And, in the States at least, pretty crappy pay (ironically the poorest paid teachers are the ones dealing with the most difficult students, vs the highly paid private school teachers).

Yeah, you're right, teachers aren't doing enough. Let's make them do more and just to show them how little we think of them, let's not even consider that what they do is valuable enough to deserve equal compensation.

[Toothpaste]

Oh. And btw. If anyone thinks marking papers isn't "work", that filling out report cards don't count, or that really anything a teacher does when she isn't in the classroom is easy, may I remind you how most jobs in the business world are nothing but paperwork, often basic data entry.

[Cranky]

There's a big difference between free and wanting $90 an hour to tutor your students after class twice a week.

They are getting paid $72,000 to $78,000 base before benefits already. And their kids are failing beyond belief. Something's not adding up, that's for sure.

Why such surprise that in one school the teachers (and/or their union) could be a part of what doesn't add up?

I'm thinking I should tell my husband we should move there after he graduates. Starting salary around here for teachers is around 35k per year. I think math and science teachers make a bit more (he's going to be a math teacher), but the average teacher's salary is around 45k, I think.

*shakes head*

Also, SF, I've got to agree with Toothpaste. I know my own kids' teachers spend a lot of of their free time and money out of their own pockets on our kids. (Not ours specifically -- all the children) And the good ones, which are most of the teachers I've seen, are worth every penny they get paid and then some.

[robeiae]

You know, I like Shadow's way of thinking. It's like when Lawyers bill for all the hours they've worked for you, well that can really add up. Surely they love their jobs right? Surely they don't mind taking it home with them? Why should I pay them to do something that they signed up to do?

Honestly Shadow, if I go into detail about what a teacher does with all their time, most of which is unpaid, will that make a difference to you? If I told you my father left the house every day at 7am got home at 5pm, and continued to mark all night (and was only paid for school hours), would that help you at all? That he chaperoned school dances, directed plays, etc, all again not being paid for it. That he actually apologised to me in his retirement speech for feeling like he hadn't spent enough time with me (which was so untrue, he managed (and still is) to be the most attentive father). And besides all of that he worked in a profession that no one respects, that everyone thinks they know better how to do than the people who were trained for it, and where people think you are lazy and don't do any work and that, some people, think they should do everything for free. If I told you all that would any of it make a difference? I don't think honestly it would. You seem determined to think ill of teachers.

It's truly fascinating actually. I've been arguing on the side of teachers for forever, and friends who once took the opposing view who now happen to be teachers themselves have totally made a 180. Why? Because no one really understands the amount of work involved in teaching until they do it. No one realises the energy it takes to just stand in front of a class alone, let alone everything else. Teaching is damn hard. And gets no respect. And, in the States at least, pretty crappy pay (ironically the poorest paid teachers are the ones dealing with the most difficult students, vs the highly paid private school teachers).

Yeah, you're right, teachers aren't doing enough. Let's make them do more and just to show them how little we think of them, let's not even consider that what they do is valuable enough to deserve equal compensation.I come from a family of teachers. And principals. And school admins. I would agree that there's very little that's easy about the teaching profession. And I would agree that most teachers are underpaid (some, however, are truly overpaid).

But I'm trying to wrap my head around some of what you've said here and I just can't. Having been friends with many children of teachers and having a teacher for a mother, I have to note that my personal experiences and knowledge don't support this "teachers work WAAAY more than anyone understands." My mom was home way more than my father, way more than the dual-working parents of friends, way more than pretty much all parents that I knew, except for those that were also teachers or that didn't work. Plus, there were the breaks: winter, spring, summer. All and all, I thought--and my mother thought--it was a pretty fair deal, though a little more money would have been better.

As to pay, I would like to note that teachers in New York State do pretty good. I know because my ex-uncle retired early, bought a summer home, and is living great, all from his and his wife's teaching career. That's all they ever did.

Of course, there are plenty of other places where teachers get the shaft. But it's not the all-encompassing shaft that is so often presented.

[backslashbaby]

I'm thinking I should tell my husband we should move there after he graduates. Starting salary around here for teachers is around 35k per year. I think math and science teachers make a bit more (he's going to be a math teacher), but the average teacher's salary is around 45k, I think.

*shakes head*

Also, SF, I've got to agree with Toothpaste. I know my own kids' teachers spend a lot of of their free time and money out of their own pockets on our kids. (Not ours specifically -- all the children) And the good ones, which are most of the teachers I've seen, are worth every penny they get paid and then some.

I'm betting they are looking for people like your husband! Ours don't get paid like that, here, either. And they should get paid more!

It sounds as if many of them work for nearly half as much as these teachers and welcome students after class. Really, they are awesome.

Well, not my freshman math teacher. She didn't even teach; she sat down and we were on our own to do whatever we wanted as long as we were quiet. That one, I'd fire. Sorry, I just would.

[SPMiller]

Teaching is already far more than a 40 hr/wk job, and they get paid shit for it. You hear me? Shit. To ask them to add even more hours on top of their ridiculous workload is outrageous, and I'm not surprised they'd refuse.

[kikazaru]

What I find astounding is not that the teachers are paid over 70,000 but that the average salary for the general populace is 22,000 - that is poverty level and seems to me to be a big part of the problem right there. To speak in generalities, the lower the salary, the less education people have, the less education they have, the more hours they have to work to make ends meet, and the less time they have to spend with their kids. If they aren't spending time with their kids, how can they help them with school work and how can they guide them especially if they don't have the education themselves.

Also, it seems to me that there will always be a segment of the population, who will just not do well academically. At one time not too long ago, if you couldn't handle school work, you dropped out and learned a trade or got a job that would still allow you to earn a good living and support a family. Now to get a good job, you need a high school diploma plus further education at a college or university - which may be beyond the reach of a lot of students - not because they don't try (although that could be for some) but simply because they are not academically inclined.

And as one who works in the school system, I can attest that almost every teacher I know earns their salary. Dealing with kids who don't want to be there, who have learning difficulties, who are neglected, who don't get enough to eat is difficult enough, you couldn't pay me enough to deal with the nutty parents and the administration.

[Haggis]

Teaching is already far more than a 40 hr/wk job, and they get paid shit for it. You hear me? Shit. To ask them to add even more hours on top of their ridiculous workload is outrageous, and I'm not surprised they'd refuse.

In my town, a teacher with 15 or so years experience and a Masters (paid for by taxpayers) can earn about $65K to $70K plus outstanding health care and retirement benefits. Lots of folks I know would love that shit, and many of them are salaried, already working more than 40 hours per week.

I have a great deal of respect for good teachers. It's a job I would never want, and I don't begrudge them their pay, benefits or summers off. But the poor mouthing does get old.

[benbradley]

Firing everyone at a school is not the worst thing that could happen (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/29/education/29clayton.html).

[veinglory]

Yet that's very common in business. In fact, if one refuses to put in more than the required 40 hours, he or she can be considered someone who is not a team member. And, yes, it can lead to firings.

It still sucks. I doubt all 80 teachers were useless.

[backslashbaby]

Firing everyone at a school is not the worst thing that could happen (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/29/education/29clayton.html).

No kidding!

This school is the bottom 5%.

From my earlier post:
A new federal requirement mandates that states must identify their lowest-performing 5 percent of schools and fix them by using one of four methods: school closure; takeover by a charter or school-management organization; transformation; or “turnaround” which requires the entire school staff be fired and not more than half be rehired in the fall.

Gallo and the union initially agreed that they wanted to embrace the transformation model — the only one that does not require that the teaching staff be replaced.


That's what the teachers' union turned down. And it could be a lot worse than what they declined, for sure.

[veinglory]

I'm thinking I should tell my husband we should move there after he graduates. Starting salary around here for teachers is around 35k per year.

I gather this is a less than desirable area. Maybe they have to pay more to fill the jobs. In whoch case I wonder how easy it will be to fill those position and how well a line-up of all newbie teachers will do. If they hore a lot of eager new grad there may well be a disaster.

Teachers are not perfect en masse, but in my experience school boards aren't either--and they are not trained education professionals. They are often pretty much the types you find in any kind of local government.

[Haggis]

It still sucks. I doubt all 80 teachers were useless.

Agreed. Absolutely. It's a BS response to the problem--the problem being low graduation rates and test scores, not teacher unwillingness to stay past their allotted hours.

[Cranky]

ETA: Forgot to quote again, drat it. Anyway, this is in response to veinglory's post.

Sorry. I was being a little facetious. :)

Hubby is planning to stay here to teach, and it's a good school system.

[backslashbaby]

Agreed. Absolutely. It's a BS response to the problem--the problem being low graduation rates and test scores, not teacher unwillingness to stay past their allotted hours.

I agree. Yet to fix it, I think you'll need the kinds of teachers who will tutor twice a week for $30 an hour (instead of $90) if the kids need it, you know? It's a chicken and egg thing, probably (again, I'd have to see a lot more to know).

[rhymegirl]

What I find astounding is not that the teachers are paid over 70,000 but that the average salary for the general populace is 22,000 - that is poverty level and seems to me to be a big part of the problem right there. To speak in generalities, the lower the salary, the less education people have, the less education they have, the more hours they have to work to make ends meet, and the less time they have to spend with their kids. If they aren't spending time with their kids, how can they help them with school work and how can they guide them especially if they don't have the education themselves.

You have said it all here.

As I mentioned in my post, Central Falls has many low-income families. There are also many English as a second language families. I'm sure this is a big factor in the school. The parents might not speak English at all or if so, not very well. How can you help with homework if you can't speak English?

[benbradley]

One opinion I've heard is the union in this case has a weaker-than-average contract. In some states it's virtually impossible to fire a teacher (http://www.google.com/search?q=new+york+rubber+rooms).

[TerzaRima]

They are getting paid $72,000 to $78,000 base before benefits already. And their kids are failing beyond belief. Something's not adding up, that's for sure.

While there may be some bad apples in this group of educators, it's not realistic to expect teacher salary to be the balm for a problem that is fed by any number of social ills--lack of early childhood intervention, poor nutrition, bad sleep habits, poor parenting, no parenting, emotional problems, or learning problems that should have been remediated in the early elementary years.

I'm not saying that we should give up on adolescents, or excusing indifferent teachers. But often by the time kids get to high school, the horse is out of the gate. Turning a high school student's problems around is typically tougher than turning a first grader's problems around.

[Silver King]

My daughter, who teaches third grade, was bitching about her salary recently, which is close to 50k per year. When I pointed out that she works less than nine months per year, which effectively ups that figure to over 62k per year, she took great exception to my way of thinking.

But the fact still remains that she gets more time off per year than just about any other profession out there, which should be calculated into the whole when accounting for yearly income.

[Dommo]

I agree. A teacher who makes like 35k a year, is still making a good 50k equivalent if you factor in the time off.

It's a quality of life thing. If I made as much as I do now as an engineer(50k), but enjoyed 3 months of vacation, I'd be as happy as a pig in shit. Hell, I could go the next ten years without a raise, and I'd still be happy because I'd only be working for 2/3 of the year.

I don't want to hear the whining "waaah teachers have to work extra hours" when guess what? Most salaried people are in that same boat, only they aren't represented by a powerful union, have shittier benefits, 2 weeks of vacation, no tenure, and don't get paid any more money. Seriously, who makes out better someone, who gets paid 2k a week for 25 weeks, or someone who gets paid 1k a week for a whole year?

[Toothpaste]

But I'm trying to wrap my head around some of what you've said here and I just can't. Having been friends with many children of teachers and having a teacher for a mother, I have to note that my personal experiences and knowledge don't support this "teachers work WAAAY more than anyone understands." My mom was home way more than my father, way more than the dual-working parents of friends, way more than pretty much all parents that I knew, except for those that were also teachers or that didn't work. Plus, there were the breaks: winter, spring, summer. All and all, I thought--and my mother thought--it was a pretty fair deal, though a little more money would have been better.



Well I'm not lying, if that's what you're implying :) .

Everything I said about my father's schedule was true (oh and just because you're home doesn't mean you aren't working, that was what my second post was in aid of - marking papers etc, um, that's still work). Now maybe he went above the call of duty in his involvement with extra curricular activities. He was also the head of the english department so had more duties than some teachers. It also really depends what you're teaching. For example teaching high school english, as he did, requires a lot more marking than teaching high school math. It just does.

I don't know what your mother taught, what grade level, etc, but my father started planning his classes for the following year in August. Yes, he had the summer off, and he took time off (built things - like the pool deck and my tree fort, he also traveled, had a nice summer), but he was still consistently working during the summer as well.

What I meant by teachers work WAAAY more (which I never wrote like that, so I think you are reading a bit into my use of the word WAY) than people think, is just that. People really do tend to think that teachers don't work that hard. For example, they truly don't understand why a teacher needs a spare in their work day, and often such free time has been filled by board decisions because they don't understand that the teacher needs the time to prep for the next class, and heck, just gather their thoughts for the next class. I defy anyone who thinks teachers don't need a moment to rest during the day to spend the whole day on their feet talking to a group of people who don't want to be in front of them. I do readings at schools, presentations that last 45 minutes. After one of those I am physically exhausted.

Truthfully, the fact is, the second anyone stands in front of a class for a period of time, that alone reveals to them how hard teachers work, how much harder they work than most people think. I've seen it time and time again. And that doesn't begin to scratch the surface with, you know, the actual act of teaching, the marking, the report cards, the politics with the wonderful parents these days.

People think "Well they get all vacations off" but I've never seen a teacher (though you evidently have) who has taken the whole of their vacation off. My friend teachers Grade 2, and again, come August, she's in her classroom a few times a week, getting it all prepped for the new year.

Obviously you and I have very different experiences with the teachers in our family (and btw, I've only used my dad as a reference, but my mother was also a teacher and about her I can also say "ditto" - and my aunt, and my uncle, and my other aunt . . . )

[Cranky]

Looks like to me that there's plenty of righteous indignation to go around, so I'm going to ask that deep breaths be taken by everyone before posting.

It won't break my heart any to lock another thread, as I'm on a roll this week. It's been twelve whole hours since I locked one, and my trigger finger's getting itchy.

[Cranky]

*pulls trigger*

I may reopen in the morning, if folks can cool down.