Prologue with Sample Chapters?

[Sleepyhead]

I haven't even queried yet (not even close to finished), much less been asked for sample chapter. I'm asking about this only because I'm a crazy optimist and want to know what to do should the time come.

The place I'd most like to submit to says it asks for the first three chapters if interested. For submission purposes, does the prologue count as a chapter? Should it be included at all? Which of the following should my submission include?

1. Prologue and Chapters 1, 2, and 3
2. Chapters 1, 2, and 3 only
3. Prologue and Chapters 1 and 2

I would think #1, but I'm often wrong, so I thought I'd check in here. Thanks for any insight you can give.

[isabella19]

It makes sense to send the book from the beginning. If you buy a book you wouldn't start reading it in the middle.

[AnnieColleen]

Kristin Nelson's (http://pubrants.blogspot.com/2010/02/why-prologues-often-dont-work.html) perspective on prologue with sample chapters (skip to the second-to-last paragraph).

Beyond that...finish the book, and then worry about it? You might not even decide that it needs a prologue, once you get to that point.

[Sleepyhead]

Thanks for the link. That's the information I was looking for. Shame, though, since I'm actually very pleased with the tone the prologue sets.

I may decide to cut it, but right now I can't picture doing so.

[AnnieColleen]

Not saying you would or wouldn't. And Kristin did say that when it works, it really works.

Just suggesting -- what you acknowledged in your first post -- that it's a bit premature to be worrying over. :)

[Falen]

Just suggesting -- what you acknowledged in your first post -- that it's a bit premature to be worrying over. :)

Indeed.
I LOVED my prologue, but i know it's mostly just backstory then can be crammed in later. So even though it's good and has some nice characterization and tone, it's going in the garbage. Better to start with your inciting incident and surface problem

[Sleepyhead]

Okay, I swear I'm not trying to be rude here. But I've been lurking on AW for a really long time now, and one of the things that made me most hesitant to jump in and post was the tendency people have to answer questions that aren't asked, while ignoring the ones that have been.

Case in point, the other day I read a "should I take this approach or that approach" kind of question. Five people jumped in to tell the poor poster that his/her idea sucked.

Now, had the poster said, "Does my idea suck?" I would have understood. But that's not the case.

What makes anyone think I'm worried about anything? Not worried, never was. I was curious, so I asked a question. A question that, if it turns out to be irrelevant to me for this particular book, may not be irrelevant to me down the road. A question whose answer will probably be useful to someone eventually even if never useful to me.

I'm not tied to my prologue, although I happen to believe in this moment that it adds to the story and I don't see that changing. Doesn't mean that it can't or that I don't very well recognize that it can't.

I've been writing a very long time. True, this is my first attempt at a novel. But just because I'm a newbie to the board doesn't mean I'm a newbie to writing who has to be talked down from lofty ideas with reality checks and warnings. And if I were, those things would still be inappropriate if unprovoked and unsolicited.

I really wanted to know if, for submission purposes, prologues should be considered chapters or extraneous material. If extraneous, should they be included or not? That's all I asked.

[Matera the Mad]

That question has already been answered in other threads.

[defcon6000]

Okay, I swear I'm not trying to be rude here. But I've been lurking on AW for a really long time now, and one of the things that made me most hesitant to jump in and post was the tendency people have to answer questions that aren't asked, while ignoring the ones that have been.

Case in point, the other day I read a "should I take this approach or that approach" kind of question. Five people jumped in to tell the poor poster that his/her idea sucked.

Now, had the poster said, "Does my idea suck?" I would have understood. But that's not the case.

What makes anyone think I'm worried about anything? Not worried, never was. I was curious, so I asked a question. A question that, if it turns out to be irrelevant to me for this particular book, may not be irrelevant to me down the road. A question whose answer will probably be useful to someone eventually even if never useful to me.

I'm not tied to my prologue, although I happen to believe in this moment that it adds to the story and I don't see that changing. Doesn't mean that it can't or that I don't very well recognize that it can't.

I've been writing a very long time. True, this is my first attempt at a novel. But just because I'm a newbie to the board doesn't mean I'm a newbie to writing who has to be talked down from lofty ideas with reality checks and warnings. And if I were, those things would still be inappropriate if unprovoked and unsolicited.

I really wanted to know if, for submission purposes, prologues should be considered chapters or extraneous material. If extraneous, should they be included or not? That's all I asked.
It's understandable, most of the time I think people don't even bother reading the OP's questions, they just go off on what the title said. :tongue

But there's still those who offer genuine help, they sometimes just get buried and you have to pick 'em out.

To answer you OP question, I guess it depends, what is you prologue like? If it's background history, you could probably rework it into the story, but if it's an important event that kicks off your story, then yes it should be included.

[Sleepyhead]

That question has already been answered in other threads.

I searched the forum. I did see the issue come up in related questions, but it didn't seem that people had reached a consensus. I was hoping to find something more definitive.

Perhaps it's there and I just missed it, or perhaps there is no one "right" way to address the issue?

[agentpaper]

I agree with defcon, that if it's important you should include it, and then send the first 3 chapters. The reason I say that is because Colleen Lindsay (and others have agreed with her) that she skips the prologue completely. Never reads it, because she's going to make you remove it before she signs you. If you send the prologue and the first 3 you're still giving her three sample chapters she won't skip over. Hope this helps.

[lucidzfl]

I searched the forum. I did see the issue come up in related questions, but it didn't seem that people had reached a consensus. I was hoping to find something more definitive.

Perhaps it's there and I just missed it, or perhaps there is no one "right" way to address the issue?

That's because there is no consensus. Half the people on the board don't even like prologues at all, much less would they suggest you send it. (I am one of these people)

Then you have the people who will just start arguing over the validity of the prologues, which derails the thread.

Then you have the ever-helpful, "If it works, it works" people, who are so useless as to simply have posted "I just wanted +1 to my post count" in the thread.

I hope this clarifies it.

[GreySpy]

I doubt you'll get much consensus on anything around here, except to never ever say "fiction novel"!

But here is what I did. I have a prologue, which is short and not an infodump and I like it very much thank you. However because there are so many people who are prickly about The Prologue Thing, I never included it with requested partials. You never know which side of that battle any particular agent might be on.

Only when the full request came in did I say, in effect, "hey lady, I got this here prologue, we can talk about it if'n you like." I thought it was better to discuss the issue as part of the rewrite phase, rather than risk irritating somebody for no good reason. [FWIW: I did get an offer of rep but didn't end up taking it. Long story. Sigh.]

They aren't going to rep you or not rep you based on the prologue anyway. So it seemed to me that, even though I like my prologue fine, the risk/benefit ratio didn't hold up.

Just one data point for you!

[maestrowork]

They ask for "chapters" so give them chapters: 1, 2, and 3.

If your prologue is short and great, include it. They're not going to reject you because you have great writing.

[Ken]

... you could exclude it in your samples and mention it briefly in your query along with a sentence summary, if it really isn't integral. Not all prologues are, nor need they be. Extra material is okay, but perhaps not for pitching a project. G'luck.

[maestrowork]

BTW, if your chapter 1, 2 and 3 can't exist without the prologue, then you may want to re-think that. And if your prologue is expendable, you may want to cut it anyway.

Basically, what I'm saying: give them chapter 1, 2 and 3 and they will/should not ask, "is there a prologue? Something is missing..."

[Albannach]

My solution. I just numbered my prologue as chapter 1. Then after I was signed my AGENT suggested it should be a prologue. Simples. ;)

Actually I'm partially lying. I wasn't that smart. I didn't even know that agents skip prologues. That seems really peculiar and -- I'm not sure I'd want someone with that attitude FOR my agent.

My novel needed that chapter whatever you choose to call it. It is a prologue only because there is a substantial gap in time and place. (So I'm assuming not all agents loathe prologues since that was my agent's suggestion which I, of course, accepted.) The assumption that a prologue is "extraneous" by an agent--that blows me away.

ANYTHING in a novel should be necessary and not "extraneous" including the prologue. IF your first three chapters "can't exist without the prologue you should re-think it"????

That is exactly when you should NOT rethink it.

Edit: I'd include the prologue and the first three chapters since they asked for the chapters. You always want to give an agent what they ask for in my opinion. If they're the kind to skip a prologue (*boggle*) then that's their choice.

I'd mention in a cover letter that you have included the chapters per their instructions but also included the prologue which you believe is necessary to the story.

[lucidzfl]

I see no point in risking it. I'm not so in love with my own unproven superiority that I feel the need to defy what those who would be (at least in part) responsible for my income, tell me.

[Sleepyhead]

Thanks, everyone! I like the idea of mentioning its existence in the query, but sending only the first three actual chapters.

The prologue is short, and I do like the way it sets the mood, but I think my chapter 1 opening is also strong and can stand alone. (A note on that, I guess: although the prologue isn't strictly necessary for plot, I think it does really good things for tone. The prologue is narrated by the MC when she's forty; chapter 1 begins when she is eight. Again, I'm not tied to it - just completely reworked a scene last night that I thought I loved - but right now it's an enhancement and not a detraction.)

[maestrowork]

The prologue is narrated by the MC when she's forty; chapter 1 begins when she is eight. Again, I'm not tied to it - just completely reworked a scene last night that I thought I loved - but right now it's an enhancement and not a detraction.)

That's certainly a legit way of using prologue, basically setting some kind of "nostalgic" tone (or maybe not -- but at least some kind of reflective). Many novels use this device (most likely as a frame instead of just a prologue).

[Sleepyhead]

That's certainly a legit way of using prologue, basically setting some kind of "nostalgic" tone (or maybe not -- but at least some kind of reflective). Many novels use this device (most likely as a frame instead of just a prologue).

Yeah, I'm intending to kind of bookend the main narrative with a funeral. Hmm, now that I put that out there, I'm struck by how cliched it sounds. Sigh - self doubt, my old friend, good to see you! Come in and let me fix you a drink.

[FJAR0009]

Sigh - self doubt, my old friend, good to see you! Come in and let me fix you a drink.

He likes vodka in Coke with lemon juice. (He's visited me frequently for, so I know his faves.)

As for sending the prologue and two chapters for the first three "Sample Chapters," that's precisely what I did. The editors are going to know that there will be a few prologues, at least, for submissions. So, basically, chalk it up to the fact that what they want in a 'chapter' is a specific section of story, and a prologue is the very first section.

Besides, if the prologue reveals it has absolutely nothing to do with the first two chapters, and the prologue is intriguing, you've got a better chance at an acceptance letter for a full.