Questions on using lyrics or a song in Novel

[writing_diva]

Hello everyone.
I'm pretty much stuck right now. I remember once reading somewhere you're allowed to use lyrics or the name of a song in a novel. Which is it?

I'm at a point in the book where a song is suppose to play which takes the character back to a point in her life and I need to know if anyone can remember or knows if I can use the name of the song or parts of the lyrics.

Help me please!
Diva

[aruna]

Hello everyone.
I'm pretty much stuck right now. I remember once reading somewhere you're allowed to use lyrics or the name of a song in a novel. Which is it?

I'm at a point in the book where a song is suppose to play which takes the character back to a point in her life and I need to know if anyone can remember or knows if I can use the name of the song or parts of the lyrics.

Help me please!
Diva

You can use the song title but not the lyrics unless you ask permission - and pay. And it's very expensive.

[Mistook]

you can't use copyrighted lyics of well known songs.... sorry. Titles are up for grabs, but lyrics aren't your's... they're theirs. Editors won't be thrilled that you've inclued other works into your book. It's no easy thing to get permission and pay for its use.

Name the title, describe the mood of the song, but you can't quote the lyrics.

[writing_diva]

Okay, so I can write in the manuscript,
In the background Jack heard Sway and thought back to the days.....

And writing any part of the lyrics is a no no.

Thank you for your help. I appreciated it!
Diva

[Jaws]

you can't use copyrighted lyics of well known songs.... sorry. Titles are up for grabs, but lyrics aren't your's... they're theirs. Editors won't be thrilled that you've inclued other works into your book. It's no easy thing to get permission and pay for its use.

Name the title, describe the mood of the song, but you can't quote the lyrics.
This is incorrect, regardless of the nonsense put forth by BMI and ASCAP (and the Harry Fox Agency, which is not an agency but a wholly owned rights-protection racket!). Admittedly, quotation of song lyrics is very limited; but the fact that they're song lyrics does not mean that there's no fair use. I have yet to find a reported opinion holding that two lines (or less) of lyrics that do not contain a proper name fall outside of fair use—and it's not for lack of looking.

Consider this example:
Hello darkness, my old friend,
I've come to speak with you again.
This does not create a copyright problem. The rights agency lost this one, and is bound by that result.

[maestrowork]

I don't think fair use extends to commerical works (such as novels).

It's probably safe to assume that everytime you want to use copyright materials in your works, you need permission.

[Jaws]

Fair use absolutely does extend to commercial works such as novels. That particular factor may (or may not) weigh against fair use, but the other three factors might very well weigh in favor of it.

I suggest reading the 2Live Crew decision, formally called Campbell v. Acuff-Rose Music, Inc., 510 U.S. 569 (http://www.authorslawyer.com/case/510US569.html) (1994) to see how the four-factor test works. In that instance, an avowedly commercial work—a song parody that quoted extensive parts of Roy Orbison's "Oh Pretty Woman"—in a rather raunchy fashion and was reproduced as part of a platinum record (can't get much more commercial than that) was found to be fair use. Justice Souter's discussion is not limited to parodies; it is widely considered, even in the academic community, the definitive description of weighing fair use factors.

All of that said, it's good practice to obtain permission for anything more than a de minimis use. It is not, however, a legal requirement, except if the publishing contract explicitly makes it so (which is, in the end, essentially unenforceable, but that's for another time).

[Clamsofcorn]

Aright, I've got a question; What would the rules be for the paradying of a song in the body of a novel?
Exempli Gratia:

(Original section of song Lyrics)
The night I was born,
The moon turned a fire red,
and my poor mother cryed,
She said, 'The Gypsy was right,
And she fell right dead.... ect. ect. some business about voodoo...
(Hypothetical Novel passage)
The night that Bob Roberts was born, the moon burned a flaming, fire red. His mother had been warned months before that the child would be the death of her, and as she lay upon the hospital cot, she screamed that the gypsy was right, and fell dead.

Granted that this Hypothetical example is horridly written, abrupt, and riddled with mediocrity, I would certainly appreciate an answer. Thanks.

[ccarver30]

I wrote a song for my novella A Precise Moment. Maybe that's an avenue for ya?

[James D. Macdonald]

The FAQ page (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=657721&postcount=9) on this subject.

[caitysdad]

you can name song titles. like betty is listening to "Sweet Caroline" on the radio as she made herself lunch, but Betty can't sing the lyrics to "Sweet Caroline." No, no, no. You'll just be financing Neil Diamond's next divorce if you do that.

[Robere210]

I'd like to include some verses of several older songs in my novel. One of my minor characters is a girl singer who sings old Cowboy songs in a modern day bar. I'd like to give my readers an inkling of what she likes to sing--then too they're fun songs.

What are the rules about this? Do I put in a footnote at the bottom of the page, giving credit to the writer of the lyrics? I'm only going to include a single verse from 3 different songs. Do I group the credits together at the end of the story? Anybody know?

[IDGS]

I'd like to include some verses of several older songs in my novel. One of my minor characters is a girl singer who sings old Cowboy songs in a modern day bar. I'd like to give my readers an inkling of what she likes to sing--then too they're fun songs.

What are the rules about this? Do I put in a footnote at the bottom of the page, giving credit to the writer of the lyrics? I'm only going to include a single verse from 3 different songs. Do I group the credits together at the end of the story? Anybody know?

Yeah, no. Big no-no.

Unless the lyrics are in the public domain, you need the rights (or permission) to publish these lyrics. Much like if someone published a part of your novel in theirs, it's subject to copyright, and it's illegal.

[L.C. Blackwell]

Off the top of my head--and I'm sort of compiling what I remember: don't quote me on this--

Attributions are the least of it. Unless the songs are so old as to be out of copyright, you or your publisher will have to get permission from all the copyright holders. According to agent Rachelle Gardner, you--not the publisher--will pay for the use. This can get pricey.

Permissions (http://cba-ramblings.blogspot.com/search?q=permissions)

In the meantime, it's probably best to go ahead and write. If your agent, or publisher, suggests changes based on the difficulty of using the lyrics you've chosen, that will be the time to tackle it another way.

Good luck!

[L.C. Blackwell]

Just to add a footnote: Unless you need to quote a familiar song for some reason, you can study the style of the older songs and make up your own lyrics--just Google them and make sure you don't plagiarize by mistake. Much easier, and less expensive.

[IDGS]

Just to add a footnote: Unless you need to quote a familiar song for some reason, you can study the style of the older songs and make up your own lyrics--just Google them and make sure you don't plagiarize by mistake. Much easier, and less expensive.

This. I originally had song lyrics at the beginning of every chapter, and had my MC sing one song (as part of the context of the narrative). Needless to say, my publisher said, "hell no." Maybe not a direct quote, but close enough.

Instead, to sub in, I did what Blackwell suggested - I made up a hokey song (cause I was filling in for a real hokey song) and went along with it. All you need to do is make up a song that fits the tone / rhyming structure of an original song, and it should work.

For a great example of this, see "Year of the Flood" by Margaret Atwood. She has 20+ "songs" from the Gardner's Handbook in there, and they all perfectly fit to the tune, metre and rhyming structure of "For Auld Lang Syne" (the New Years song) - and it probably saved her a hell of a lot of money, while allowing her to be creative with it. Think outside the box!

[Ryan David Jahn]

Write it how you want. If it gets to the point where the novel is accepted for publication, you'll be required by your publisher to get permissions from the copyright holders and/or the publishers.

The notice that permissions were received will then appear on the copyright page, so I don't think you need to include anything formal in the text itself.

I've never had to get clearance to use lyrics, but I've heard it can cost. The process, though, is pretty straightforward. I've gone through it to get clearance on excerpts from books and poems.

Once you have a publisher for your book, you write a letter saying your book is scheduled to be published by so-and-so, you say the format your book will appear in (hardcover, paperback), and you say exactly what text you want to use.

You may have to send this letter to several people (agents, publishers, lawyers who handle estates). Who can actually grant permission is not always clear.

Once you find the right person, though, it's simple, at least in my experience. You say please. They say yes.

That said, and again, I've never gone through the process with lyrics. With them, I think money is often involved, which I haven't had to deal with.

Hope this helps.

EDIT: And if specific songs aren't necessary, only a certain style of song, making up lyrics as suggested above is certainly the simplest way to go. If you think real songs add something, though, keep them in and try to get clearance. If you can't, or if the price is too high, you know you have an alternative.

[blacbird]

This issue gets discussed with regularity here, and you can find numerous other threads addressing the issue. Aspects of which summarize to:

1. If the lyrics are in public domain, you may quote them freely. Essentially, in the U.S., this means something published prior to 1923. So you have to define "old". Things by the Beatles, in this definition, aren't "old".

2. If the lyrics are still protected by copyright, you'll get general advice from the most experienced and best writers here that basically goes:

DON'T. Just don't. It ain't worth it.

3. Beyond the legality issues, there is the issue of artistic effect. What do you gain by quoting lyrics? In general, there is a tendency for inexperienced writers to think they get a lot more mileage among readers by quoting lyrics than they actually do. To which the best advice is probably:

DON'T. Just don't. It ain't worth it.

[JudyS]

One of the big issues in copyright is, "How much of an entire work have you quoted?" Song lyrics are generally quite short, so even a single line can be a substantial part of the work. A verse is generally a very substantial part of the work -- one song verse is often around 20% or 25% of the whole song. So, in terms of how much of the work you've quoted, quoting one verse would be like quoting 50 pages verbatim from a 250 page novel.

Both writing your own lyrics and using public domain lyrics are good ideas. Since you want old cowboy songs, you can probably find plenty from the 19th century.

[Terie]

I've never had to get clearance to use lyrics, but I've heard it can cost. The process, though, is pretty straightforward. I've gone through it to get clearance on excerpts from books and poems.

Actually, finding the copyright holder for lyrics can be very much the opposite of straighforward. The older the song, the more difficult. There are experts in the field who talk about how very very difficult it is.

Not to mention that it can be prohibitively expensive.

And if your reader doesn't know the song anyway, why bother with the hassle and expense?

As blacbird said, your best option is just not to do it.

If it makes it easier for you to write the book, there's no harm in putting them in your manuscript. But even if you decide to leave them in for submission, make sure they're easy to extract, because if you sell the book, the publisher is likely not to want to keep them.

[JudyS]

...
I've never had to get clearance to use lyrics, but I've heard it can cost. The process, though, is pretty straightforward. I've gone through it to get clearance on excerpts from books and poems.....Thanks for your comments! I need to ask for permissions for quotes to use in my nonfiction book that I'm writing, and it's pretty intimidating. It's nice to hear from someone who made it through the process.

Did you have anyone turn you down at all?

[Ryan David Jahn]

Actually, finding the copyright holder for lyrics can be very much the opposite of straighforward.


Yes, I said exactly that two paragraphs on.

Even so, I have a shelf full of books with lyrical quotations in them, so it's neither impossible to obtain permissions nor something that nobody does. It may be a pain, it may not be worth it, but that depends on how important it is to the person who'll have to go through the work of getting permissions.

EDIT: I do think your point about how difficult it is with an older work should be emphasized though. Good Lord, it's a pain. Finding out who controls a novel from the 1930s or 1940s -- written by a writer who's now dead -- can be nearly impossible, and, from what I've heard, that's a cakewalk compared to dealing with music.

But I still tend to think writers should go for what they want, try to get clearances, and only give up after it's proved to be more work than it's worth. Yeah, it might mean pointless effort; but it also might mean you get exactly what you want instead of an approximation of what you want.

[BigWords]

Old cowboy songs (http://www.lonehand.com/cowboysongs/cowboy_songs.htm)? Depending on how "old" you are talking about, there are some brilliant songs which are out of copyright (and have been for decades), so there is no reason to abandon the idea entirely. Of course, even if you think a song is out of copyright, you still have to do the necessary checks to make sure that it is so.

[Ryan David Jahn]

Thanks for your comments! I need to ask for permissions for quotes to use in my nonfiction book that I'm writing, and it's pretty intimidating. It's nice to hear from someone who made it through the process.

Did you have anyone turn you down at all?

Not yet, but I've only hunted down four permissions, so my experience is limited, and even so, I almost gave up on one of them. It was simply a pain to find out who controlled the work. But in the end I managed and am glad I did.

That said, I've only dealt with estates. I've never asked a living person for permission to use an excerpt from their work.

[Hillgate]

Or just write: 'Mary-Jane was in the bathroom murdering an Aerosmith song.' Or some such. :) That's absolutely fine.

[Jamesaritchie]

Unless the songs are out of copyright, Don't Do It. Period. It's never a good idea, and as much a form of self-sabotage as anything. You don't need the lyrics, the publisher doesn't want the lyrics, and it's unlikely either of you can pay for them.

[Jamesaritchie]

Thanks for your comments! I need to ask for permissions for quotes to use in my nonfiction book that I'm writing, and it's pretty intimidating. It's nice to hear from someone who made it through the process.

Did you have anyone turn you down at all?

Why do you need permission for quotations? I've written a lot of nonfiction, and I've yet to find a case where I needed permission to quote anyone. It's often polite to ask, but not required.

[dawinsor]

Thanks for your comments! I need to ask for permissions for quotes to use in my nonfiction book that I'm writing, and it's pretty intimidating. It's nice to hear from someone who made it through the process.

Did you have anyone turn you down at all?

When I wrote scholarly articles and books, I usually cited other scholars without permission. That's part of fair use.

However, I had to get permission twice. Once was for a quote from a novel that I wanted to use as an epigraph for one of my own books. The book's publisher took care of that. I believe the cost was supposed to come out of whatever I earned on the book, but with scholarly stuff, that's usually zero to start with, so I'm not sure. The second time, I wanted to reproduce a chart from another scholar. The journal editor asked me to write the original author myself asking for permission, because the other scholar was less likely to turn me down or charge me than the publisher. And sure enough, that author just gave me permission.

[CAgirlforever]

I ran in to the same problem with my own novels. I originally had lines from several songs in my books because the MC always has a song stuck in her head and often thinks in lyrics. The book series takes place in the 80's and the songs are from the 60's-80's, much too new to be in the public domain.

So, when I put the first two novels up as eBooks on B&N and Amazon, I decided to remove all the lyrics because there's no way I could afford to obtain permission to use them all. Instead, I just mentioned the artist or song title, or even a line from the song as long it wasn't a direct quote. For example, in the beginning of Secrets, the MC is leaving her home in IN for CA, and she hears Led Zeppelin's "Going to California" on the car radio. She sighs and says, "My heart is aching right along with yours, Robert Plant." That way the mood is still conveyed, the song is mentioned, but I didn't quote it directly so I don't have to worry about copyright problems. I hope this gives you some new ideas!

Shannon

http://willowwriter.blogspot.com

[PortableHal]

Okay, I think I've got it: Don't use song lyrics.

But what about a random quote? I'd love to use this -- "What is Love but the Demon inside or is an Angel, with play on his mind?" -- but I can't find where it comes from. Some sources say it's anonymous (which leads me to think, I can use it), others say 'John A' ... but it's not clear to me.

I'm just hoping it's not a song lyric.

[JudyS]

Okay, I think I've got it: Don't use song lyrics.

But what about a random quote? I'd love to use this -- "What is Love but the Demon inside or is an Angel, with play on his mind?" -- but I can't find where it comes from. Some sources say it's anonymous (which leads me to think, I can use it), others say 'John A' ... but it's not clear to me.

I'm just hoping it's not a song lyric.
Have you tried Googling the phrase, or part of it? That often will lead you to the source.

The issue isn't so much whether a phrase is part of a song or not; the issue is the length of the original work. In other words, quoting song lyrics is problematic because lyrics are typically short, so even a line or two is a major part of the work. So, if this phrase turns out to be from, say, a poem instead of an actual song, there's still the same problem. If it's from a play or novel, you'd probably be OK, because it's only a short portion of the whole work. (Bear in mind, though, that individual songs from musicals are each whole, entire works, the same way short stories in an anthology would be.)

[JudyS]

Dawinsor, thanks for the info!

Why do you need permission for quotations? I've written a lot of nonfiction, and I've yet to find a case where I needed permission to quote anyone. It's often polite to ask, but not required.I should have been more clear. The quotes I plan to use are from other books, not from people I've spoken to. In some cases, I want to use several fairly long quotes from a single book, so I expect I'll need permission.



After posting on this thread, I realize that songs lyrics are an issue in my own book. I'm writing an unauthorized biography of Michael Jackson. There are a couple of places where I want to discuss his approach to lyrics, and I'm not sure I can do that without quoting at least very short parts of the lyrics. For example, Michael Jackson often deliberately mispronounced words because he felt the "new" pronunciation did a better job of conveying the emotions of the song. I want to give an example of this: he often pronounced the phrase "come on" as "shamone." I think it's probably OK to quote the phrase "come on," because it's both very short and a very common phrase, so it probably not protected by copyright even when used in a song.

A more difficult problem occurs with his use of lyrics as a form of percussion. For example, his song "Smooth Criminal" uses a staccato repetition of the phrase "Annie, are you OK?" over and over again. I have seen reviewers mention that specific phrase ("Annie, are you OK?") in published reviews of this song. However, I think reviewers may be more entitled to quote from a work they're reviewing than biographers are.

So, instead of the whole phrase "Annie, are you OK?" I'm considering saying something like, "Much of the lyrics in 'Smooth Criminal' consist of multiple repetitions of the name 'Annie' and the phrase 'Are you OK?'"

By doing this, the longest phrase I'll be quoting is "Are you OK?" Again, that's a short phrase and is very common, so I think it's not protected by copyright even when used in a song.

What do people here think?

[Satchan]

Old cowboy songs (http://www.lonehand.com/cowboysongs/cowboy_songs.htm)? Depending on how "old" you are talking about, there are some brilliant songs which are out of copyright (and have been for decades), so there is no reason to abandon the idea entirely. Of course, even if you think a song is out of copyright, you still have to do the necessary checks to make sure that it is so.

This. I've used bits of old folk songs in stories before. Most of them don't have a single "creator" and are too old to still be under copyright in any case. I have seen songs that are still under copyright quoted in books, but I think it is expensive to get permission. And I am regrettably not Neil Gaiman or Terry Pratchett. ;)

[IDGS]

I grew up - and still grow up - on a steady diet of Stephen King. King loves to use song quotes (especially in his earlier works, including the Bachman books) between paragraphs and within the narrative itself.

However, the big difference between he and the rest of us? Budget. A thousand dollars for use of a song he feels to be essential for the work vs the hundred thousand or so he'll make off it in the first few years? Not as consequential, to say the least.

[Robere210]

So... let me see if I have this straight. It absolutely OK to use any lyric I want to... right? HEY... I'm kidding!!! :)

Thanks for the excellent advice. I do appreciate it. I will not, repeat, not use any old Cowboy song lyrics unless the song is ancient, and even then I probably won't take the chance.

I wanted to use the old cowboy lyrics because some of those are just beautifully descriptive. I did write a verse to an old Country song and I put it in. I'll do some more. THANKS!!!

[Devil Ledbetter]

Aside from the legal issues, there is another consideration when including song lyrics in a novel. Lyrics tend to fall pretty flat on their own. This is especially true when the reader is unfamiliar with the song. When the author adds lyrics she believes they contribute a lot because she's hearing the song in her head, with all of its emotion and musicality. But to the reader those same "wonderful" lyrics may be a tedious read. They probably don't add much to plot or characterization either.

If more writers realized this, the "can I include lyrics" question would probably pop up less often.

[Jamesaritchie]

Dawinsor, thanks for the info!

I should have been more clear. The quotes I plan to use are from other books, not from people I've spoken to. In some cases, I want to use several fairly long quotes from a single book, so I expect I'll need permission.



After posting on this thread, I realize that songs lyrics are an issue in my own book. I'm writing an unauthorized biography of Michael Jackson. There are a couple of places where I want to discuss his approach to lyrics, and I'm not sure I can do that without quoting at least very short parts of the lyrics. For example, Michael Jackson often deliberately mispronounced words because he felt the "new" pronunciation did a better job of conveying the emotions of the song. I want to give an example of this: he often pronounced the phrase "come on" as "shamone." I think it's probably OK to quote the phrase "come on," because it's both very short and a very common phrase, so it probably not protected by copyright even when used in a song.

A more difficult problem occurs with his use of lyrics as a form of percussion. For example, his song "Smooth Criminal" uses a staccato repetition of the phrase "Annie, are you OK?" over and over again. I have seen reviewers mention that specific phrase ("Annie, are you OK?") in published reviews of this song. However, I think reviewers may be more entitled to quote from a work they're reviewing than biographers are.

So, instead of the whole phrase "Annie, are you OK?" I'm considering saying something like, "Much of the lyrics in 'Smooth Criminal' consist of multiple repetitions of the name 'Annie' and the phrase 'Are you OK?'"

By doing this, the longest phrase I'll be quoting is "Are you OK?" Again, that's a short phrase and is very common, so I think it's not protected by copyright even when used in a song.

What do people here think?

That makes sense. You can use song titles, of course, and there are ways of gettoing almost anything in. I had a character go into a bar, and he hears Frank Sinatra on the jukebox, singing about doing it his way.

[Lady Ice]

Aside from the legal issues, there is another consideration when including song lyrics in a novel. Lyrics tend to fall pretty flat on their own. This is especially true when the reader is unfamiliar with the song. When the author adds lyrics she believes they contribute a lot because she's hearing the song in her head, with all of its emotion and musicality. But to the reader those same "wonderful" lyrics may be a tedious read. They probably don't add much to plot or characterization either.

If more writers realized this, the "can I include lyrics" question would probably pop up less often.

Agreed.

[Bluetrane]

I realize this is a pretty old thread, but it's a topic extremely relevant to the novel I just completed. The story revolves around music - specifically a band. Removing the song references and lyrics will hurt because they inform the influences of the characters.

Since no one on the forum as far as I've seen has actually done the deed - gotten permissions, investigated the cost, etc. I will report back with what I find out.

[seun]

I believe you can use lyrics provided you ask permission

No. You can use them provided you get permission and (very likely) pay a load of money.

[Maryn]

I believe you can use lyrics provided you ask permissionNope. Asking permission is not enough. Giving credit to the lyricist and/or band is not enough. Oral permission is not enough.

You need a written contract, crafted by an attorney giving you permission to quote exactly what and for what purpose(s). In all likelihood, even if the musician is your friend it will not be free. It may not even be available, as record labels strive to keep a band's or musician's 'brand' pure. Whoever owns the rights calls the shots, and it's often the label rather than the person who thought it up.

Maryn, sure on this

[Loretta]

This is incorrect, regardless of the nonsense put forth by BMI and ASCAP (and the Harry Fox Agency, which is not an agency but a wholly owned rights-protection racket!). Admittedly, quotation of song lyrics is very limited; but the fact that they're song lyrics does not mean that there's no fair use. I have yet to find a reported opinion holding that two lines (or less) of lyrics that do not contain a proper name fall outside of fair use—and it's not for lack of looking.

Consider this example:
Hello darkness, my old friend,
I've come to speak with you again.
This does not create a copyright problem. The rights agency lost this one, and is bound by that result.
Thanks for the info on this. I've been stuck in limbo for several hours, trying to make sure I could use the title of a song. I'd wanted to use two lines of the lyrics, but I'm giving that up. LOL I don't think I could take the stress of wondering if the lyric police were coming after me or not!:)...This thread has been very informative, thank ya, Jaws for your special info:)(Oddly enough, the lyrics were, Oh the shark has, pretty teeth dear, and he shows 'em, pearly white:) Talk about coincidence!:)

[cmi0616]

This is actually relevant to me, as I am using a lyric (mind you, not the whole song or even a complete verse, but a lyric) as an epigraph for my novel. Is that allowed?

[Jamesaritchie]

The simple answer is just don't do it. Fair use is the most abused thing in law. Nowhere in fair use law does it say you can use any copyrighted material in your own fiction, outside of writing a parody.

There's never a good enough reason to use lyrics, any lyrics, without written permission. Finding out you were wrong by getting sued makes no sense for one or two lines that your book can certainly do without.

[Medievalist]

There's a stunning, emotionally moving copyright FAQ right here on AW (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58845), but yeah, don't use lyrics unless you've got lots and lots of money to spend on licensing or legal costs. And I do mean lots.

Also keep in mind that lyrics can date your book. Don't you want to be timeless? Constantly adored and in print?

[Megg33k]

Okay, I know the last post here was a few months back, but it seems silly to start a new thread. I only sort of want to use a song lyric. What I really want to do is use an altered song lyric, but I don't know if that counts as parody... or maybe something else?

The song is Haddaway's "What Is Love"

Original Lyric: What is love/Oh baby, don't hurt me/Don't hurt me no more

Proposed Lyric: This is love/Badger, don't hurt me/Don't hurt me, I implore

Is that acceptable? I don't feel like it's ACTUALLY a song lyric anymore at that point. I mean... Other than the fact that they're singing it... They could very well just be words I strung together. In fact, they ARE words I strung together. I feel like it would be hard to prove that I had any intent of using a specific song lyric with so many of the words changed, but I'm trying to cover my bases. I'm self-publishing, so I won't have a publisher there to tell me "no, this can't stay."

Thanks in advance!

[James D. Macdonald]

Well, this post, which now exists forever on the Internet, proves intent.

What does this lyric get you that you can't get by other means? How does it advance the plot, reveal character, and support the theme?

It's my firm opinion that most novels that include lyrics, whether original or quoted, would be improved by deleting them. So ... let your conscious be your guide.

But don't do it anyway.

And for heaven's sake, why are you self-publishing? Has the book already been rejected by everyone in Writers' Market?

[Lady Ice]

If the reader isn't familiar with the song, the lyrics won't have the effect you want them to.

[Megg33k]

The song itself wasn't meant to have any effect. I just liked the cadence of the words, but I couldn't get far enough away from the actual song to stop reminding people of it (if that makes sense). I didn't really want it to be THAT song... I don't really care about that particular song at all. Regardless, it's been re-written, and I love the new version (which won't get me sued).

RE: Writers' Market... No, it's never been rejected by anyone. I've never submitted it to anyone. I'm simply making a personal choice on how I go about getting my feet wet. I do have a novel I intend to submit for traditional publishing once this is done, though. I'm curious to be able to investigate both options, and I've just chosen to start with self-publishing.

Anyway... Thank you for the input. I sort of knew the answer already, but I had to hear... er... read it for myself. I appreciate it!

[dangerousbill]

I don't think fair use extends to commerical works (such as novels).


Yes, it does, but since the law assumes novels are written to make money, the standards of fair use are stricter for fiction than, for example, classroom use.

But the RIAA is so aggressive about pursuing perceived copyright infringements, the concept of fair use doesn't really exist with song lyrics.

Titles, on the other hand, are not copyrightable.

[Spectral Aggressor]

Sliiiiiiiiiiiight deviation from the topic but is it okay to reference band and album/EP/demo/etc. names in a story of your own?

[Lady Ice]

Sliiiiiiiiiiiight deviation from the topic but is it okay to reference band and album/EP/demo/etc. names in a story of your own?

Bear in mind that it might really date your work or could give the wrong impression- for example, if your character was meant to be a music connoisseur and then cited a band that you think is cool but other people think is really cheesy.

Unless you're using it to date a novel (for example, someone in the sixties listening to the Beatles), I'd be cautious.

[Lady Ice]

Sliiiiiiiiiiiight deviation from the topic but is it okay to reference band and album/EP/demo/etc. names in a story of your own?

If you mean "story of your own" as in a private and unpublished story, then yes.

[blacbird]

What Lady Ice just said, reiterated. The very first questions you, as author, should ask yourself are: What does mention of such a thing actually do for my story? How specific do I need to be (e.g., does it make a difference if your character is listening to "Styx" or just to "cheesy overblown pompous seventies rock")?

And, above all, don't assume readers are going to know about the band or song you decide to name, unless it's a really well-known thing. The last thing you want a reader to be doing is scratching his head, wondering WTF that reference meant?

Similar cautions can be issued for the use of other kinds of pop culture references, such as to fashion, or movies, etc.

caw

[Once!]

Sad to say but this thread is going to make me revise chapter four of my science fiction comedy. To set the scene, a violent war-mongering race are about to enter Earth's orbit and generally frighten everyone.

The current draft (a little rough around the edges) starts like this:




Chapter Four



WAR! HUH! WHAT IS IT GOOD FOR?



“Absolutely nothing.”

“Say it again?”

It was the late shift at the radio telescope array. Bill and Pete were eating pizza and idly checking their screens for a sign – any sign – of another alien visitor.

“I mean, the area of space I am looking at has absolutely nothing in it. Zero. Nada. Nothing,” said Pete, chewing absent-mindedly on a double meat feast deluxe with extra pepperoni.

[blacbird]

Chapter Four



WAR! HUH! WHAT IS IT GOOD FOR?



“Absolutely nothing.”

“Say it again?”

It was the late shift at the radio telescope array. Bill and Pete were eating pizza and idly checking their screens for a sign – any sign – of another alien visitor.

“I mean, the area of space I am looking at has absolutely nothing in it. Zero. Nada. Nothing,” said Pete, chewing absent-mindedly on a double meat feast deluxe with extra pepperoni.

This is a great example, and glad you posted it. I just cut the offending material (above), and seems to me that loses nothing. And, yes, I'm very familiar with Edwin Starr's classic soul anthem.

You could undoubtedly find another chapter title, or just leave it out. Some people hate chapter titles, but I'm not among them, and often use them myself.

In any case, I don't think the song reference added anything, and it's painless to remove.

caw

[Once!]

I know, but I liked the joke. It seemed fun to have a song lyric bounce from a chapter title to one character's speech and then another.

Ho hum. Murdering our darlings and all that. It's got to go...

[Nymtoc]

This topic has been discussed a couple of gazillion times, but I guess it's still worth talking about if people are uncertain about copyright. :Huh:

This is gonna get me in trouble, but why is it so important to quote song lyrics in your fiction? Is it to extract some meaning from the lyrics (in which case it is the songwriter's meaning, not yours), or is it merely to show that your characters like a certain song or a certain singer or band? If you want to give a particular flavor to a story or to a scene, there are many other ways to do it. If you feel it's important to show that your characters are into heavy metal or grunge or goth or bubble-gum, then say so. You can name song titles and bands if you want, but what's the need for lyrics?

As others have said, putting music in a story can date your writing. "Driving home from the game, I listened to '99 Luftballonen.'" Hmm.

However, I should add that when I'm reading fiction from decades ago, the mention of music can enrich the story. If characters are dancing to Glenn Miller's "String of Pearls," that certainly establishes an era, if it hasn't been established before.

:Guitar:

[Jamesaritchie]

Sliiiiiiiiiiiight deviation from the topic but is it okay to reference band and album/EP/demo/etc. names in a story of your own?

Sure, and I wouldn;t worry about dating your novel. Every novel is dated, and if it matter, no one would read any novel written more than ten years ago. Dating is unavoidable. And what some call "dated", others call setting in a real time and place. This is a good thing.

[Vonpeter]

It is astounding how many conflicting opinions there are here. Fair use does not apply to commercial work, yet others say it does.

One person has said that to get around this, quote only the title, OR one may mention, for instance, that the character is listening to a song on the radio, and then himself sings along.... Does anyone know emphatically that this might be okay without paying for the lyrics themselves? And if so, does one use quotation marks or not, such as ... Mark lay on his back, his headphones firmly in his ears and when he heard the song announced as number one, he sang along, 'Wild thing....you make my heart sing...'

Surely, without paying hundred of dollars for a lawyer to give one advice, there must be someone out there that knows for sure?

[victoria.smith775]

I recently used a song from the movie "The Jerk" in mine... hmm... I probably should check and make sure that's ok, lol

[Medievalist]

It is astounding how many conflicting opinions there are here. Fair use does not apply to commercial work, yet others say it does.

Fair Use is decided in a court. It's not a right; it's a safe harbor determined by a judge and/or a jury after a suit is brought.

[Browland86]

The book I'm reading now (Saints on the River by Ron Rash) makes reference to songs without naming them explicitly or using the lyrics directly. The narrator says "Lucinda Williams was singing about car wheels on a gravel road..." and I knew exactly which song it was. So if you only use a few words to reference a specific song, is that all right? In this case, referencing the song sort of sets the mood of the scene.