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nighttimer
01-29-2010, 10:12 AM
Why is Chris Matthews the man who makes liberals smack themselves upside the head? :e2smack:

Mostly because he goes on live television and says cringe inducing things like his remarks following President Obama's State of the Union speech:

I was trying to think about who he was tonight. It's interesting: he is post-racial, by all appearances. I forgot he was black tonight for an hour. You know, he's gone a long way to become a leader of this country, and passed so much history, in just a year or two. I mean, it's something we don't even think about. I was watching, I said, wait a minute, he's an African-American guy in front of a bunch of other white people. And here he is president of the United States and we've completely forgotten that tonight — completely forgotten it. I think it was in the scope of his discussion. It was so broad-ranging, so in tune with so many problems, of aspects, and aspects of American life that you don't think in terms of the old tribalism, the old ethnicity. It was astounding in that regard. A very subtle fact. It's so hard to talk about. Maybe I shouldn't talk about it, but I am. I thought it was profound that way.

I know exactly what Chris "I feel a tingle" Matthews means. I know I forget I'm Black for hours. Sometimes for the whole day. I'm profound that way.

Sweet Creepin' Jebus. Does MSNBC really have to wonder why they're stuck in third place behind Fox and CNN?

AMCrenshaw
01-29-2010, 10:57 AM
I like the idea of post-racial (perhaps with the ideal of post-racist in my mind), since I feel "race" is a stupidly shallow identifier and thus doesn't extend to anything of common understanding except appearances or impractical, general knowledge. If we're talking, rather, about a "culture," or "cultural group" or a "cultural identity" I think we can be more specific about which culture we actually mean. Much of what constitutes Race is really descriptive of culture, anyway. Conversely, skin color and other shared physical traits can be central - or at least fundamentally significant -- to a culture, and that warrants understanding in and of itself. There's no clearer (more vivid) example for me than, say, 1920s Harlem Black and White cultures, how integrated the colors were in the collective unconscious, if I can call it that. How important the color of skin was then! I'm not sure how important skin color or other shared physical traits are, relative to 1920s, but Chris Matthews' idiotic comment illuminates the exact way we are not post-racial at all.



AMC

blacbird
01-29-2010, 11:43 AM
Been addressed in an earlier thread. Somewhere here.

caw

Don
01-29-2010, 05:49 PM
Chris Matthews strikes me as a real-life version of Ian Miller's parents in "My Big Fat Greek Wedding."


Guatemalan, Greek... is all the same.

rugcat
01-29-2010, 10:24 PM
Jon Stewart:

"Chris Mathews is just one bourbon away from being Ron Burgundy."

William Haskins
01-29-2010, 11:52 PM
obama's black?

Williebee
01-29-2010, 11:58 PM
Jon Stewart:

"Chris Mathews is just one bourbon away from being Ron Burgundy."

Somebody get a glass to Mr. Mathews. At least then he'd be fun to watch.

Cassiopeia
01-30-2010, 12:02 AM
I know exactly what Chris "I feel a tingle" Matthews means. I know I forget I'm Black for hours. Sometimes for the whole day. I'm profound that way.

:roll:

aaand you win the prize today for making me snort water up my nose.

Ruv Draba
01-30-2010, 01:00 AM
I'm married to a woman who's Australian-born but of 75% Chinese descent and she goes months without thinking of herself as Chinese. Essentially, she doesn't think about it until someone reminds her. Which where I live, means that months pass.

And that to me, is the beginning and end of the so-called race question. Culture matters; appearance doesn't. Obama's speech tells me his tribe; his skin tells me nothing.

Elaine Margarett
01-30-2010, 02:04 AM
I saw this the other night. What an utterly stupid thing to say! Guess we can tell how Mathews views the world. And the funny thing is, he said it with a sense of, I dunno, pride. Like gee, the president is so wonderful I forgot what color he is. WHAT??

smcc360
01-30-2010, 02:23 AM
Ah, Chris Matthews. He's like a caricature of a parody.

Maybe it's because Obama is so 'clean' and 'articulate', with none of that 'Negro dialect'?

veinglory
01-30-2010, 02:54 AM
The problem IMHO is not so much the idea that you can not be thinking about race when you talk to some one, but the implication that he/we normally think of Obama constantly as 'our black president'. That's what is insane IMHO. Yes he is black, but he has been in office for a year--who (still?) has that as a constant, minute-by-minute front of mind issue everytime he is on TV?

Inky
01-30-2010, 03:11 AM
I've had the same 'praise' regarding my daughters.
Wow, they don't ACT like black girls...

WTF??????

And, like the above mentioned, this is said to me with a semblance of pride...as if they're just damn proud of their observence and giving some sort of profound compliment.

If it weren't for this black eye blurring my vision, I'd squash my cigerette in their face!
(that was humor...for some of you that will rep me that I sounded like white trash...and I say that with a semblance of pride :) .....)

William Haskins
01-30-2010, 03:14 AM
it shouldn't be surprising that matthews thinks this way. much of obama's appeal for many of his tingling fans rested—and continues to rest—in the symbolism of his race.

Ruv Draba
01-30-2010, 03:34 AM
If it weren't for this black eye blurring my vision, I'd squash my cigerette in their face!
(that was humor...for some of you that will rep me that I sounded like white trash...and I say that with a semblance of pride :) .....)See... white trash is a culture and skin doesn't matter there either. I'd rep you, 'cept my teen daughter just drank the last of my six-pack and I need to yell at my halfwit boy to go cut me a length of garden-hose to whip her with.

Inky
01-30-2010, 04:37 AM
See... white trash is a culture and skin doesn't matter there either. I'd rep you, 'cept my teen daughter just drank the last of my six-pack and I need to yell at my halfwit boy to go cut me a length of garden-hose to whip her with.
Said son created by your uncle/brother/husband, eh?

Gah...laughed so hard over your post, I choked on pill I was in the middle of downing!!!

Think Gollum's graveling voice: 'it burns...it BURNS!!!'


ha...that's what SHE said...


sorry...

it's the rocking motion of this trailer...strong winds outside...:ROFL:

Sheryl Nantus
01-30-2010, 04:43 AM
I don't really want or need to know what makes Chris Matthews "tingle"...

*shivers*

rugcat
01-30-2010, 04:55 AM
The problem IMHO is not so much the idea that you can not be thinking about race when you talk to some one, but the implication that he/we normally think of Obama constantly as 'our black president'. That's what is insane IMHO. Yes he is black, but he has been in office for a year--who (still?) has that as a constant, minute-by-minute front of mind issue everytime he is on TV?I think you're vastly underestimating the number of people who still think that way.

Gregg
01-30-2010, 07:20 AM
Why is this guy still on TV? Hannity is too much of a cheerleader for me, but at least he engages the opposition. Even shared his program with one.

But Matthews? You tell me. He lost me with the tingle up his leg. Does he give conservatives legitimate airtime? Or does he just giggle when Obama comes on the screen?

I'll admit that I haven't watched him in a long time. Along with a lot of other non-viewers.
Somebody please explain him to me.

nighttimer
01-30-2010, 07:23 AM
it shouldn't be surprising that matthews thinks this way. much of obama's appeal for many of his tingling fans rested—and continues to rest—in the symbolism of his race.

What do you base this upon? Your personal absence of tingling or your decades of expertise understanding how White people interact with intelligent, articulate and charismatic Black men?

blacbird
01-30-2010, 08:33 AM
What do you base this upon? Your personal absence of tingling or your decades of expertise understanding how White people interact with intelligent, articulate and charismatic Black men?

I didn't know you were black.

Or charismatic, either. I'll give you the other two qualities, though.

caw

William Haskins
01-30-2010, 09:32 AM
What do you base this upon? Your personal absence of tingling or your decades of expertise understanding how White people interact with intelligent, articulate and charismatic Black men?

i base it mostly on how his cheerleaders so readily leap to race in order to deflect criticism and demonize his opposition.

it's intellectually dishonesty and cynically manipulative.

blacbird
01-30-2010, 12:08 PM
See... white trash is a culture and skin doesn't matter there either.

Depends on the tats.

caw

nighttimer
01-30-2010, 01:07 PM
i base it mostly on how his cheerleaders so readily leap to race in order to deflect criticism and demonize his opposition.

it's intellectually dishonesty and cynically manipulative.

I don't think it makes someone an Obama "cheerleader" to cite race as a contributing factor in some of criticism leveled against him. All you have to be is a conscious American citizen with an knowledge of this nation's troubled racial history, an understanding of how much of what White people know about Black people comes second hand as many of them have little interaction with members outside of their own racial club.

There's nothing intellectually dishonest or cynically manipulative to note Barack Obama has been treated in ways no Chief Executive has before him.

What is intellectually dishonest and cynically manipulative are those individuals whose disdain and contempt for him is based upon his race. Chris Matthews fawns over Obama because he's never met a Black man like him and that makes him an insufferable boor, but it doesn't make him unique. Many Black people hear those same words but only the phrasing changes. "I don't think of you as Black." It's meant as a compliment, but it's just as big an insult as calling me the N-word.

For those of us who grew up around and learned from exception Black men and women, Barack Obama is not some sort of unicorn or other mythical beast. There's nothing special about Obama in that aspect. I knew and know people like Barack Obama every day of my waking life. They aren't unususal to me as they are to Chris Matthews who apparently was led to believe these kind of Black people only existed in Sidney Poitier films and The Cosby Show.

Haskins, I don't know whether to take you seriously or not sometimes. If you don't believe there's no racial component involved in some--and I emphasize the word "some"---of the criticism leveled at Obama--whether it's the Birthers, the bigots that show up at Tea Party protests, the Joe Wilsons of the world that shout out "You lie!" and are applauded as heroic figures by the Right, and the others who attempt to deny the legitimacy and authority of the president--then I don't know what to tell you and really don't intend to spend my time trying to convince you otherwise.

You and your little persecution complex should be very happy together.

Don
01-30-2010, 05:19 PM
There's no doubt that there's been a racial component in some of the criticism leveled at Obama.

Chris Matthews is proof that there's been a racial component in some of the praise leveled at Obama. I can't decide if Matthews is more the beaming parent, proud of little Barry's acting almost like a grownup, or if it's more of the "Dang, I never knew bears could dance" variety.

robeiae
01-30-2010, 06:42 PM
Damn, Don. For a minute there, I forgot you were white.

Don
01-30-2010, 06:50 PM
Damn, Don. For a minute there, I forgot you were white.
I am?

*goes to look in a mirror*

Hmm... no reflection. Guess I'll have to ask somebody sometime.

William Haskins
01-30-2010, 09:04 PM
Haskins, I don't know whether to take you seriously or not sometimes.

do or don't. what do i care?

<object width="518" height="419"><param name="movie" value="http://www.eyeblast.tv/public/eyeblast.swf?v=Xduzuz2GSU" /><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true" /><embed type="application/x-shockwave-flash" src="http://www.eyeblast.tv/public/eyeblast.swf?v=Xduzuz2GSU" allowfullscreen="true" width="518" height="419" /></object>

nighttimer
01-30-2010, 11:00 PM
do or don't. what do i care?

Bluster and bullshit all you like. Your past actions put the lie to your present posturing. :rolleyes

William Haskins
01-30-2010, 11:19 PM
it's telling that you would pursue the personal angle and not even comment on the video provided which supports my contention that some on the left will cynically and manipulatively attempt to stymie any criticism of obama by declaring it racist.

you don't see this as an obstacle to recognizing and remedying real racism?

Williebee
01-30-2010, 11:24 PM
Mr. Haskins, I agree with your point, but somewhere in here we have to make a list of talking heads/celebrities/political pundits/politicians w have crossed some kind of line from being legitimately concerned commentators into the realm of knee jerk "everything (insert political party/person here) says is evil lies!". Mr. Limbaugh and Mr. Olbermann can start the list, in my book.

nighttimer
01-30-2010, 11:31 PM
I really don't consider Keith Olbermann or Chris Matthews credible sources in discussions of race matters.

Here's a better one:

<object height="340" width="560">


<embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/vWF-peyRuvA&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" height="340" width="560">[/URL]</object>


<dl class="info"><dd>Blacking Up: Hip-Hop's Remix of Race and Identity explores tensions surrounding white participation in hip-hop. Popularly referred to by derogatory terms such as “wannabe” or “wigger,” the figure of the white person who identifies with hip-hop often invokes heated responses. For some, it is an example of cultural progress – a movement toward a color-blind America. For others, it is just another case of cultural theft and mockery – a repetition of a racist past.</dd></dl>
[URL]http://www.blackingupmovie.com/the-film (http://www.youtube.com/v/vWF-peyRuvA&hl=en_US&fs=1&)

William Haskins
01-30-2010, 11:34 PM
I really don't consider Keith Olbermann or Chris Matthews credible sources in discussions of race matters.

you have no interest in substantive discussion on this.

AMCrenshaw
01-30-2010, 11:39 PM
You do.

AMCrenshaw
01-30-2010, 11:41 PM
"All you pious and profane, put away your praise and blame! A glass can only spill what it contains!"




amc

robeiae
01-30-2010, 11:43 PM
High and dry and out of the rain
It's so easy to hurt others when you can't feel pain

nighttimer
01-31-2010, 05:41 AM
you have no interest in substantive discussion on this.

With you? Nice try, Mr. Haskins, but sell that b.s. to someone interested in buying it. I tried to back in post#24. You blew it off with a dismissive, do or don't. what do i care?

A man tells me he doesn't care, despite a history of remarks that indicate exactly the opposite, at some point I'm going to take him at his word that he really doesn't.

If "substantive discussion" on this constitutes you lecturing only on the topics you're interested in and me listening passively, you're quite correct. I have no interest.

If "substantive discussion" means an actual discussion, then bring it on.

rugcat
01-31-2010, 06:12 AM
Chris Matthews fawns over Obama because he's never met a Black man like him and that makes him an insufferable boor, but it doesn't make him unique. Many Black people hear those same words but only the phrasing changes. "I don't think of you as Black." It's meant as a compliment, but it's just as big an insult as calling me the N-word. Mathews is an idiot, but I think he was trying to make a different point that the one people took from it.

I think he was acknowledging that race has always been an omnipresent factor, in both our culture and our politics, but that somehow with Obama, that has become much less relevant. People love him or hate him based on other factors than race, and when listening to him one becomes unaware of race, in exactly the same way that when Bill Clinton gives a speech, no one thinks of him as white. They don't think about it at all, and much can be said of Obama -- which is not the way things have been in the past.

This is new in politics, and is a credit to our society, not to Obama for being so "post racial."

Now, I don't agree with him, I think that's horseshit, but I don't think he was saying, gee, look at me, I don't see race. Only Steven Colbert can manage that.

it's telling that you would pursue the personal angle and not even comment on the video provided which supports my contention that some on the left will cynically and manipulatively attempt to stymie any criticism of obama by declaring it racist.
There are some who do this, as you are quick to point out. But there are many more whose criticism has a definite racial tinge, and I think you have something of a blind spot when it comes to them, or the people who call them out.

Death Wizard
01-31-2010, 06:33 AM
This is new in politics, and is a credit to our society ...

And it's new because of Obama, not in spite of him.

William Haskins
01-31-2010, 06:49 AM
You blew it off with a dismissive, do or don't. what do i care?

i didn't blow anything off. i added to that remark specific video documentation of a major new network commentator with millions of loyal viewers making sweeping accusations of racism against people who commented on obama's demeanor, something that is done to every president with equal vigor, and deliberately framing it as racism.

this type of behavior is specifically designed to cause deeper divisions between the races, and is used cynically and recklessly by race hustlers.

you don't address that. you simply remark that you give no credence to olbermann, so his remarks are irrelevant.

that is dismissive.

blacbird
01-31-2010, 07:53 AM
people who commented on obama's demeanor, something that is done to every president with equal vigor, and deliberately framing it as racism.


So, comments about GWB's demeanor (the famous smirking, bumbling semantics, etc.) are attributable to him being white?.

caw

blacbird
01-31-2010, 07:57 AM
Mathews is an idiot, but I think he was trying to make a different point that the one people took from it.

Perhaps. But the bolded part is the important stuff. He said something egregiously and incredibly stupid, for which. as far as I know, he has made no qualifying statement or mea culpa, which only exacerbates the idiocy of it. Whateverthefuck point he intended to make has long dissipated into the intergalactic universe, with almost nobody understanding it.

You gonna say a thing, say it so nobody has any excuse for not understanding it. The person best at this talent in my lifetime was Martin Luther King.

caw

nighttimer
01-31-2010, 09:09 AM
i didn't blow anything off. i added to that remark specific video documentation of a major new network commentator with millions of loyal viewers making sweeping accusations of racism against people who commented on obama's demeanor, something that is done to every president with equal vigor, and deliberately framing it as racism.

I don't give a flying fat rat what Keith Olbermann has to say about race. You do. You give weight to his remarks. I don't. That's the difference between us.

And if you really think Obama's "demeanor" is commented upon with equal vigor in the same way as every other president, I gotta tell you that's the biggest load of crap since the fertilizer truck overturned on the freeway.

I've acknowledged time and again many of those who critique President Obama negatively do so based upon honest differences that are politically and philosophically based. I'm still waiting in vain for you to acknowledge that there is an element of racism in some of those critiques.

So if you're not going to grant even the possibility of my position, why should I extend to you a courtesy you won't provide me?

this type of behavior is specifically designed to cause deeper divisions between the races, and is used cynically and recklessly by race hustlers.

Ahh...the well-worn rhetoric of the cultural conservative rears its pointed little head. "Race hustlers?" Really, Haskins? That's all you can bring to the party? Weary clichés like that by their nature only stifle and choke off a candid exploration of deeper division between the races.

If I wanted to similarly poison the well I could sneer at how difficult it is to discuss racial matters with conservatives who counted die-hard bigots like Strom Thurmond and Jessie Helms as Republicans in good standing and doubtlessly admired Ronald Reagan despite his nodding and winking to racism when he launched his 1980 campaign for president with a speech lauding "states rights" in Philadelphia, Mississippi, where three civil rights workers were murdered.

So after I've accused the other guy of being at best an apologist for racists or at worst, sympathetic to them, how productive of a discussion are we going to have then?

I can't take seriously anyone who casually throws around loaded terms like "race hustler" but claims to be concerned about "deeper divisions" between the races. Wow. No shit?

you don't address that. you simply remark that you give no credence to olbermann, so his remarks are irrelevant.

that is dismissive.

Yep. It is. I just don't care what Keith Olbermann has to say about matters of race because just like his amigo, Chris Matthews, their opinions don't mean jack to me when it's obvious they don't know anything about the subject.

William Haskins
01-31-2010, 09:22 AM
okie dokie

wrangler
01-31-2010, 09:24 AM
I'm married to a woman who's Australian-born but of 75% Chinese descent and she goes months without thinking of herself as Chinese. Essentially, she doesn't think about it until someone reminds her. Which where I live, means that months pass.

And that to me, is the beginning and end of the so-called race question. Culture matters; appearance doesn't. Obama's speech tells me his tribe; his skin tells me nothing. I like this.

nighttimer
01-31-2010, 10:44 AM
A man tells me he doesn't care, despite a history of remarks that indicate exactly the opposite, at some point I'm going to take him at his word that he really doesn't.

okie dokie

My point exactly.

nighttimer
01-31-2010, 10:14 PM
I think it's worth noting that Chris Matthews wasn't trying to take a shot at anybody. I also think it's worth noting that he was attempting to compliment Obama and say something positive about what he's done for race relations. (See Matthews' clarification here (http://www.mediaite.com/tv/chris-matthews-on-obama-i-forgot-he-was-black-for-an-hour/).) But I think it's most worth noting that "I forgot Obama was black"--in all its iterations--is something that white people should stop saying, if only because it's really dishonest.

One way to think about this is to flip the frame. Around these parts, we've been known, from time to time, to chat about the NFL. We've also been known to chat about the intricacies of beer. If you hang around you'll notice that there are no shortage of women in these discussions. Having read a particularly smart take on Brett Favre, or having received a good recommendations on a particular IPA, it would not be a compliment for me to say, "Wow, I forgot you were a woman." Indeed, it would be pretty offensive.

The problems is three-fold. First, it takes my necessarily limited, and necessarily blinkered, experience with the fairer sex and builds it into a shibboleth of invented truth. Then it takes that invented truth as a fair standard by which I can measure one's "woman-ness." So if football and beer don't fit into my standard, I stop seeing the person as a woman. Finally instead of admitting that my invented truth is the problem, I put the onus on the woman. Hence the claim "I forgot you were a woman," as opposed to "I just realized my invented truth was wrong."

Ditto for Chris Matthews. The "I forgot Obama was black" sentiment allows the speaker the comfort of accepting, even lauding, a black person without interrogating their invented truth. It allows the speaker a luxurious ignorance--you get to name people (this is what black is) even when you don't know people. In fact, Chris Matthews didn't forget Barack Obama was black. Chris Matthews forgot that Chris Matthews was white.

I'm put back in the mind of the The Wire, when Slim Charles tells Avon that it really doesn't matter that our wars are based on a lie. Once we're fighting, we fight on that lie until the end. I would submit that a significant number of white people in this country, can not stop fighting on the lie. They can't cop to the fact that they really have no standing to speak on Obama's relationship to blackness, because they know so little about black people. It's always hard to say, "I don't know." But no one else can say it for you.

This is why Obama will never be postracial--he can't make white people face the lie of their ignorance, anymore than Jimmy Baldwin could make black people face the lie of our homophobia. It's white people's responsibility to make themselves postracial, not the president's. Whatever my disagreements with him, the fact is that he is brilliant. That he is black and brilliant is pleasant but unsurprising to me. I've known very brilliant, very black people all my life. At some point that number of white people who still can't get their heads around our humanity will have to accept the truth: the president is black, even if you don't quite know what that means.

Ta-Nehisi Coates (http://ta-nehisicoates.theatlantic.com/archives/2010/01/i_remembered_chris_matthews_was_white_tonight.php) :Thumbs:

Celia Cyanide
02-01-2010, 09:33 PM
There are some who do this, as you are quick to point out. But there are many more whose criticism has a definite racial tinge, and I think you have something of a blind spot when it comes to them, or the people who call them out.

I agree. While I do think that some Obama's supporters are too quick to leap to racism, it would not occur to them to do this if it were not there in some instances. Without giving examples, I will say that there are a few things said against Obama that I believe would be considered unacceptable and unamerican, if they were said about any other president, regardless of political party.