Where are the women in espionage thrillers?

[wrtaway]

...and by that question I mean, where are the female authors and female protagonists?

I'm a big fan of psychological thrillers; obviously there are plenty of fabulous psych thrillers written by women and/or about a female lead. But, I've recently tried to branch out into reading some of the other M/T/S sub-genres, and I noticed that spy thrillers seem to be a nearly exclusively male field. (I know that there are a couple of exceptions, but they are very much in the minority.)

Since that's not where my reading interests have historically led me, I'm just honestly curious about anyone's opinion as to why this might be. Not a loaded question, I promise!

[triceretops]

I'm a male author and I have a female-centric espionage (military somewhat) thriller called Diane Nine and the Fusion Machine. I wanted a real kiss-ass gal in the tradition of "Get away from her, you bitch!" Ripley from Alien. So I took out all the fantastical and derivative elments of Iron Man, tossed my paraplegic gal into a different setting, and let her go full mayhem on a terrorist triade, using an advanced military combat exoskeleton. Huuuraaah!

Tri

[firedrake]

Helen McInnes wrote loads

[Jamesaritchie]

There aren't many for one very good reason. . .publishers can't buy what writers don't wrote, and slush piles are remarkably free of women espionage writers.

[jeseymour]

I see an unexplored niche. Too bad I know nothing about spies. Well, very little. Hmmm.

[OctoberLee]

...sleeping with Bond? I'd probably read espionage thrillers if they weren't generally so misogynist/male dominated... hmm... interesting...

[Good Word]

Gayle Lynds is a successful espionage writer.

[gothicangel]

I've never been interested in espionage or political thrillers. Too testerone filled maybe? I'm not even that keen on legal thrillers. The Pelican Brief grated on me, despite loving the movie.

I'm not that big on action, I'd rather have something more 'cerebral.' Hence my love of psychological thrillers. It could be down to the lack of character development of these characters also.

[kaitie]

There aren't many for one very good reason. . .publishers can't buy what writers don't wrote, and slush piles are remarkably free of women espionage writers.

I wroted one. Sorta. Kinda. :tongue There's a spy in it anyway. And a chick. And she's not even super hot and wearing leather...

I'm starting to see why I'm not getting requests. :tongue

Nah, truth be told I'm a chick and I still write men. I read men. It seems almost weird even to me to put a woman in this position because we don't see it often (unless they're the hot babe in skin-tight clothes using her feminine wiles to gain access to things). If I ever write the sequel to the last, the chick from this one kind of ends up doing a spy mission in her own right (same guy as before, but she's the one leading this time). Not sure if I ever will, though.

Maybe it's because of the assumption that most people reading espionage thrillers are men, and men would rather have a fanservice version of a woman than a heroine spy? (That was all part of the assumption, I don't actually believe that's true). I honestly can't think of a single female spy I've read, and the only ones I can think of even from movies or TV are the stereotyped gorgeous babe spies.

Then again, maybe men really do just write them more and maybe men tend to write male characters more often than women. I'd also guess (pure speculation here) that at least some of it has to do with the idea of what a spy does--someone who is unattached and willing and able to risk their lives, etc. I think it's easier for people to put a man into that category just based on the old family stereotypes that tend to portray the woman as a mother with obligations who should settle down.

Interesting question. Also it's midnight and I'm half asleep. If this is incoherent, that's why.

[jeseymour]

I remember watching a program, it may have been Scientific American, about a man and wife spy team. She looked like your typical housewife type, and that probably made her the perfect spy.

[Jamesaritchie]

Well, anothee problem is that espionage novels went into a death spiral when the Soviet Union collapsed. Many writers were cut, publishers stopp buy almost all such novels, and only the top few writers managed to keep going.

It's a whole new world of espionage out there. New enemies, new ways of doing things, and not many writers, regardless of gender, have adjusted to it. Spys aren't what they used to be, and the tech has changed immensely in just the last five years.

[Chase]

Pervasive biases and stereotypes of any kind ruin books for me -- for instance that testosterone is a terrible thing.

Of course I don't mean characters can't have biases . . . or lots of testosterone or estrogen (both sexes thrive on both) . . . or bigotry to the point of evil. Where's the fun then?

History is certainly full of female spies. I think the nitch could be filled by good writing.

[Stanmiller]

:evil
IMO part of the problem is the very high standards set by (mostly) English and US (a few) writers in the '60s and '70s, during the height of the Cold War. With marvelously complex antagonists (Col. Stok in the early Len Deighton books, any of LeCarre's or Adam Hall's bad guyss), they established the genre and they've been been tough to beat. Even a few of the early Bond books are pretty good, but they went downhill in a hurry when Hollywood took over.

These days, the bogeyman is the terrorist and he's not nearly as interesting. Of course, it's very satisfying when they get their just desserts, but religious idiocy just doesn't lend itself to complex character development.

Obviously, guys don't have the brains for this, occupied as they are with sex and guns. So...jeseymour, kaitie, get with it.

[Clair Dickson]

Well... while someone like Bond can be smart, capable, and very attractive to the opposite sex, I'm going to argue that readers tend not to accept a woman who is all of these. She can be smart, but has to be clumsy or plain or otherwise not hot. If she's hot, then the only thing she knows how to do successfully is use her assets-- and she certainly won't have a brain in the pretty head. I've run into plenty of women readers who were turned off by my female character because she "had it all" (or other variations)-- brains, sex appeal, and fists she could use. Male readers, however, enjoyed the combo...

Anyway, we're a long way from a female Bond, I think.

As for more female-lead espionage, I think it's still a market thing. Too many (imho) books by females with female leads devolve into romance, thus taking them out of the running for really being a female-lead espionage (or whatever else). They become softer books and less action oriented, in general.

[Stanmiller]

Clair,
Bo Fexler sounds just the kind of gal to run across a Chinese industrial espionage ring while on a case and dismantle it just to show she can.

[jeseymour]

Well... while someone like Bond can be smart, capable, and very attractive to the opposite sex, I'm going to argue that readers tend not to accept a woman who is all of these. She can be smart, but has to be clumsy or plain or otherwise not hot. If she's hot, then the only thing she knows how to do successfully is use her assets-- and she certainly won't have a brain in the pretty head. I've run into plenty of women readers who were turned off by my female character because she "had it all" (or other variations)-- brains, sex appeal, and fists she could use. Male readers, however, enjoyed the combo...


I have a character like this, but she's a US deputy marshal, not a spy. Holly Hunter has to play her in the movie version. So far, my readers like her.

[kaitie]

I remember watching a program, it may have been Scientific American, about a man and wife spy team. She looked like your typical housewife type, and that probably made her the perfect spy.

They had a recent case I remember reading about where a husband and wife were charged with being spies for Cuba, and had been for some ridiculously long time. That was fascinating. I don't remember details, but that might be the same one you're talking about.

[RJK]

You can't get more stereotypical than male uniformed cops. Women started working in uniform while I was a lieutenant. At first, I was apprehensive. The women weighed between 120 and 150 pounds. the tallest was 5 feet, nine inches. Many of the people we had to arrest were over 200 pounds and over six feet tall. I worried about the women's safety, but couldn't give them preferential assignments.
What I learned, was that most of the women used methods other than physical force to arrest many larger men. (It didn't work all the time). Women introduced new ways of dealing with people that the men hadn't thought of.
Writers, particularly female writers, can apply different techniques to female MCs, in espionage (or other thriller) situations.

[jeseymour]

Holly Hunter now? Or Holly Hunter circa winning the Oscar? Because there's a big difference. Holly Hunter circa winning the Oscar was what guys refer to as "sneaky hot", meaning she wasn't someone you'd automatically think was hot, but if you saw her in a movie, or in person, you'd say, "Damn, forgot about her... yeah!"

Holly Hunter now? Oh God... I didn't order a skeleton with my hippie hair did I? Gag me.

We've been netflixing our way through Saving Grace, and yeah, she's a bit on the thin side in that. Sally would not be quite so thin. And Sally has short red hair. Otherwise...

[jeseymour]

He means boobs.

I was thinking of Tasers. :D

[heyjude]

He means boobs.

::headdesk::

[MarkEsq]

I was thinking of Tasers. :D

Ah yes. "Tasers." (I'm with Todd.)

I wonder if RJK has hit upon one of the problems - spies in novels, if not in real life, have to be action heroes. Running, punching, fighting, etc. You can wear a tuxedo and be Mr. Suave and still do that stuff. But you can't wear an evening gown and heels, then sprint across rooftops. It's also harder to believe that a woman could physically overpower an East German border guard (or whatever). Like it or not, there is a physical difference between men and women (thank heavens) and that difference does not work to the advantage of women as realistic action heroes. Now, a more psychological spy novel maybe, but at some point the ass-kicking has to happen, no?

[MarkEsq]

...and she has real boobs,

picky picky

[heyjude]

::facepalm:: to go with the ::headdesk::

[heyjude]

NOW would be a GREAT time to take this little side discussion to our handy-dandy PM system!

Include me in the discussion. I like to keep my eye on you.

[gothicangel]

:evil
These days, the bogeyman is the terrorist and he's not nearly as interesting. Of course, it's very satisfying when they get their just desserts, but religious idiocy just doesn't lend itself to complex character development.


I would read a book like this [I know John Updike published one a few years ago, that I never got round to reading.

There is a huge capacity for complex development if the writer moves away from the Hollywood stereotype.

[heyjude]

One of the things I liked most about the TV show Flashpoint (mourn, mourn) is that the bad guys weren't always these evil, horrible characters bent on world domination for their own personal gain. Sometimes they were just people, ones who weren't sure how to get out of the mess they were in.

[gothicangel]

One of the things I liked most about the TV show Flashpoint (mourn, mourn) is that the bad guys weren't always these evil, horrible characters bent on world domination for their own personal gain. Sometimes they were just people, ones who weren't sure how to get out of the mess they were in.

Yep, this is my writing mantra :D

[heyjude]

Have you ever seen the show, gothicangel? It's Canadian, not sure where all available, but we got it in the States and I've downloaded it on iTunes. It is/was fantastic.

[Clair Dickson]

A woman who's working a spy will surely learn how to run in heels (it can be done, and is easier facilitated by the strappy ones that won't fall off.)

I'm not sure there always has to be physical confrontation in a spy thriller-- at least not fist-fight type confrontation. But if this is what indeed readers expect, then no, a woman lead may have some difficulty delivering...

BUT-- is it really so unbelievable that a woman can't learn to be a skilled fighter. Many martial arts program, if I recall, include perfectly good maneuvers that level the playing field in regards to size. I mean, Mr. Miyagi kicked butt and he was smaller than most women. It was his training-- which is something that any woman could learn if she so desired.

Just because most women in average every day lives don't have a certain skill set, I just don't buy that they couldn't learn that skill set for their job or plot line. (Damn you Mom for teaching me that women can do nearly everything men can do! No I can't sell my book.)

[kaitie]

::facepalm:: to go with the ::headdesk::
:roll:

[gothicangel]

Have you ever seen the show, gothicangel? It's Canadian, not sure where all available, but we got it in the States and I've downloaded it on iTunes. It is/was fantastic.

Cool. No I didn't know, I'll have a look on iTunes [and actually get around to reading the book :D]