Novel in a bubble

[StormWarning]

I wrote the novel I wanted to write, and I stand by it, like a mother would her idiot-savant child. However: The absence of feedback (save from my husband, who has done his best to be critical and objective) has made my plight of stockpiling form rejections all the more challenging--is it the query, the synopsis, my lack-of-a-story story...? What few willing readers I had lined up conveniently fell off the map just when I needed them most, and as I embark on the next project, I don't want to find myself back in the same isolation tank.

Yes, yes, I know: I have to find a local writer's group. But I confess: I have trust issues. This is Los Angeles, where people tend to have an agenda and a "me-time" quota. Am I just supposed to put myself and my work out there and *trust* that I will receive qualified, unbiased input? Trust takes time! What if after 15 minutes with a group you realize you're even more alone than you were in your bubble? Do you stick it out or duck out? And do you leave a trail of dirt behind you? I'm an only child who hasn't had a very good track record with groups, but I'm thinking it's time to try again--but only if it's safe. Is it safe?

[Niesta]

Your post is related to one I've been wanting to write, but not knowing which forum to put it in, exactly. How does one find a group? My problem is that I'm in a new (to me) city, and don't know where to start looking. I HAD a group, back in Philly, made up entirely of friends, and friends of friends. We all liked to write, and it seemed like a natural progression.

My reader gap has largely been filled by my sisters. I send them a chapter a month, and they tell me how much they liked it :rolleyes: which is flattering, but not that useful. It does create a nice artificial deadline, though, and that keeps me moving, albeit slowly.

It seems to me that, in principle, it should be possible to start a virtual group. You could have 4-6 members and instead of meeting once a month, you could look at one person's work per week. Every four (or six, or whatever) weeks, when it was my turn, I'd e-mail a chunk of text to everyone, and then they would e-mail back comments over the course of the week. Has anyone here ever done that? It sounds nice in theory -- would it be a pain in real life? I'm just trying to figure out how those of us who feel isolated can join forces.

[Valona]

Stormy,

I can understand what you're going through. I've had the same kinds of fears all my life. Still, when I started getting rejection notes without comment, I realized I probably need help from objective fellow writers.

You have to realize all us writers are in the same boat. To get our work adequately critiqued, we have to trust someone, whether it be a beta reader, critique group, or whatever. I would suggest shoping around the various on-line, and local writer's groups. Most that I've found are quite good, and I've learned I can trust them.

For starters, can I suggest one on-line writers group for you? It's a small group, but they are very helpful and friendly. Just check it out and see what you think. It's at http://p204.ezboard.com/brazorsedgewriters.

I hope this helps.

[stormie]

Hi Stormwarning--

From one storm to another :hi:
If you really feel uncomfortable about belonging to a writer's group, then it might not help you. Also, everyone has their own opinions on what's good, what isn't.... You have to know what you believe in with your work. Read all you can about writing. One of the books I like is Stephen King's On Writing. Keep submitting your work; don't let lack of critique hold you back.

A suggestion: write some short pieces, either short stories or essays and submit those to smaller magazines. Sometimes the editors will tell you what they liked or didn't like. It's a start.

Put that novel aside for a week or two. Reread it out loud. See if it hooks you within the first page. Hear the flow of your words.

If, in time, you feel the real need to belong to a writer's group, then go for it. But, as I said, you have to feel comfortable.

My two cents!

[La Reine]

Hi StormWarning,

I belong to an online writing group: www.zoetrope.com (http://www.zoetrope.com). Like many posters here say, sometimes it's more helpful to give critiques than to recieve them. Also, I find that more reading helps my sense of judgement when it comes to the worth of my own writing, but nothing helps (at least in the initial stages) more than being among a community of writers whose feedback you can trust. Be mindful that reviewers are not always right/are human etc, so trust your instincts most of all.

[StormWarning]

Niesta...the virtual, "Isolated Joining Forces" concept is a nice one--in theory. But--and I say this from the position of having absolutely no experience in virtual communities, online groups, etc.--is there a concern that the lack of physical presence can result in misunderstandings and offenses that might otherwise be avoided by a natural sensitivity to another person via eye contact, body language, and attitude? (Does that make sense?) And dare I add, how do we assure each other that each person's intellectual/creative materials will be protected? (I wasn't kidding about trust issues!) Nevertheless, there's something very comforting about an online presence vs. a physical one, and definitely worth exploring. I'm off to explore valona's referral--http://p204.ezboard.com/brazorsedgewriters--now...

[Niesta]

Well right, and I guess I did kind of make it sound like one would be picking up readers one didn't know in random places. For myself, I had actually been thinking more that I would ask people I have had significant contact with, even if I hadn't met them in person. I blog, and I have a number of readers who I feel like I know, from their own blogs and from comments to my blog. We already have a relationship.

Misundertanding due to the lack of physical cues does happen online, but it is something I hadn't considered much in this context. I dunno, I don't think it would bother me, personally, that much in a critique situation. I read and have written literary criticism -- I expect a certain coldness to it, and that is what I feel I lack with my current, familial readership. If I thought someone was just being mean, I think I'd ask them to clarify first.

So I'm taking it that a virtual writing group is not a common practice among others? I guess this site does have a critique forum, and I guess one does form relationships here, so maybe that counts...

[StormWarning]

This is a helpful and healthy perspective. Good relationships, whether they be physical or virtual, are key. I've successfully managed to irrevocably damage every writing-based relationship I've ever had, usually because the other person specifically requested an "honest critique." (I still remember the seething glare from a girl I hardly knew in my last writing roundtable--it wasn't my fault her prose was sophomoric!) Maybe I'm the guy at the bar thinking I'm looking for a meaningul relationship when all I'm capable of sustaining is a one-night stand. Thanks, Niesta, for some good food for thought and the reality check. (And I thought writing a novel was challenging!)

[scribbler1382]

Writing/critiquing groups, be they face-to-face or online, are not for everyone. I know a lot of writers who swear by them and report that they've been helped by them amazingly. I also know a lot of writers who swear about them and wouldn't go near a group with a 10 foot blue pencil. People on each side of this seem to be doing equally well, which leads me to believe groups are not a magic bullet for everyone.

Personally, I tried a local group years ago and ended up attending only one meeting. That was about one too many. No one really seemed interested in getting published, or had actually written anything to completion. They talked a lot about vignettes they wanted to write and poetry and such, and seemed to pronounce our profession as write-taw. Granted, this wasn't exactly a like-minded match for me. I have belonged to some online groups over the years, but usually what happens is a huge portion of a good group will get too busy actually writing and publishing to participate any longer. The time I did spend in the good groups did help me, but mostly from the act of critiquing other work.

IMO, writing is a solitary endeavor and should remain one. Beta readers when you get to a near-final draft stage are one thing, but when you're in medias res, it should be all you. That's how I see it, anyways.

[Cathy C]

I belong to a number of on-line groups. Some of them are specific to my genre (romance & paranormal), but some are all inclusive. The thing you have to decide is what you want to get out of the group. If you do indeed have trust issues, then you have to explore what those issues are before you can decide what to do (or WHETHER to do) about them. Do you fear that someone will steal your ideas? Put that one out of your mind. The U.S. copyright laws have changed with the advent of the internet. The "Digital Millennium Copyright Act of 1997" began to protect people in cyberspace. Posting a sample electronically has been included in the term "on paper" for the purposes of your protections. You can read more about this at: http://www.copyright.gov/help/faq .
Next, do you fear criticism? This can be a huge issue, and it's wise when joining any group to determine what type of writer you are. I once got some terrific advice from a well-known author when she offered criticism on one of our books.

"Now, I don’t know you personally, but I know enough writers to realize you have to fall into one of three categories: one, you take all criticism so much to heart that you hear nothing but negatives and fall into a deep depression and hate yourself, your writing, and everyone else; two, you think you’re perfect, and don’t believe any criticism; three, you know you’re good, but not perfect, and you can take well-meant criticism, and look at it objectively. If you are a number one, then stop reading this immediately. I loved the book, you’re a wonderful writer, just let a friend X out the rest of this note. If you are a number two, then you can also stop reading this because you won’t listen anyway. If, and I hope you are, a number three, then read on"

So, you're going to have to decide which kind of writer you are: #1, #2 or #3. You're going to fare best in critique groups if you're a #3. If you're a #1, you can still do critiques, but you have to ASK people to be gentle. Normally, that's all it takes. However, some critiquers can be brutal. Don't take it personally, because even if they absolutely HATE your writing, there's usually something true in what they've posted. If you can find it within yourself to step past the snark, you can usually find the problem that's escaping you. If you're a #2, critique groups probably aren't for you. The ones I've seen that have tried have wound up in arguments, because if all you're looking for are "yes men," you probably won't find it in a group. The goal of critiquing in on-line boards is to FIND problems, not to gush over the piece.

That said, there is one board that I think is terrific, and another that has potential:

http://www.writersbbs.com/forums/#chat . This is an international site that is broken down into genre if you prefer, and even has a political board (like the Take it Outside board here). But the people there are really terrific at critiquing and everybody has been very friendly.

Yahoo has a group called "New Writers" that I frequent. While it's a large group with a lot of members, they're more reclusive. If you post something, people will respond privately to you, rather than replying on the loop for everyone to see. That might work well for you. Just go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/New_Writers/

I've heard about the ezboard, but haven't attended. Since I work with a co-author, I generally don't need beta readers or critique partners. But I do offer to read some things, when I have time in my schedule (which I don't for a bit longer, unfortunately, due to contract deadlines.)

Hope this helps a bit. :)

[StormWarning]

Very informative, Cathy C, and very helpful. The copyright info has definitely disbanded a lot of my paranoia, and as for trust, well, the scars from being stabbed in the back have never fully healed. Yet all this simply confirms that I'm the one with the problem: According to your insightful breakdown, I'm a #2.5, and that certainly explains a lot. Professionally, I'm a #3, but personally, I'm a #2. I have no fear of criticism, yet it needs to be fully vetted before I can concede to it and make change. (Gee, I didn't mean to turn this into a therapy session!) It seems to me that what I'm really looking for are beta readers. So I ask: Is a writer's group the only path to achieving this goal?

On a personal note, I am so very grateful for all the input I've received here. I feel like I'm breathing again.

[Cathy C]

No, a writer's group isn't the only answer. There are places where you can find Critique Partners (CP), where you and one other person trade works and help each other through the rough spots. But again, you have to decide the PURPOSE of getting a beta reader. If you're getting rejection after rejection, there are two possible answers: Either you're targeting the wrong publishers/agents for the product, or there is something faulty in the manuscript. Those are the only two answers available. Since there's no way to know if either one is true without feedback, you're doing the right thing in looking for someone to look at your manuscript to eliminate one of the possibilities. But if you are in fact a #2, what information are you seeking that could change your mind that it's not perfect? In order to find a beta reader or a CP, you have to be upfront with your goals. Asking someone to read an entire book and make comments is a HUGE commitment of time.


It might be advisable for you to sit down and think about what it would take to change your mind if a reader sees a problem. Do you need to hear that the exact same thing is wrong from two or three people who are already published in your genre? If so, you probably won't find that in a beta reader or a CP. You might be looking for a mentor. A mentor is someone who is already published and offers their help to beginning writers who have promise, as a service to the writing community as a whole. The trick is to find a mentor who you already respect, who has time, and who will be honest about their opinion without offending you. No small feat, that! For this, I'd recommend the WritersBBS board, since most of the forum leaders are published or near published. But few people who have a publishing career have time to read the entire book. There are many, many deadlines to deal with and even if the person does it full-time, it is very much a full-time job. "Volunteer work" is often relegated to boards such as this. There ARE a number of very well known writers on this board who often step in and answer questions. You might consider posting a chapter in the "share your work" board in your genre. You might be surprised how quick you can get just the answers you're looking for! (Today's therapy session now over... ;) )

[StormWarning]

I'm already surprised by how quickly I'm getting answers! Thank you for the direction, the specificis, and the analysis. I don't mind the long journey, just so long as I'm moving forward.

[Niesta]

Hey, and I want to thank Cathy C, too, for the online writer's groups info!

[Sassenach]

[QUOTE=StormWarning]Very informative, Cathy C, and very helpful. The copyright info has definitely disbanded a lot of my paranoia, and as for trust, well, the scars from being stabbed in the back have never fully healed. Yet all this simply confirms that I'm the one with the problem: According to your insightful breakdown, I'm a #2.5, and that certainly explains a lot. Professionally, I'm a #3, but personally, I'm a #2. I have no fear of criticism, yet it needs to be fully vetted before I can concede to it and make change. (Gee, I didn't mean to turn this into a therapy session!) It seems to me that what I'm really looking for are beta readers. So I ask: Is a writer's group the only path to achieving this goal?

[QUOTE]

Do what's best for you and for the potential members of your crit group...don't take that path. The crits offered will not be 'fully vetted', and it sounds as if you're not willing to hear what you don't want to hear.

[StormWarning]

The reason I'm here is because I want to improve. That's the maturing process and it is a process. Unfortunately, one doesn't always see the inherent flaw in a concept until it's converted from thought to voice (or posting). I've already learned a lot here, and I believe I've reached a point where I'm so hungry for input that it's time to drop my guard and be willing to learn. I just needed some help getting there.