Phone coversations: as deadly as dream sequences?

[cityotter]

Hi everybody. i'm almost, almost finished with my book. just filling in some missing scenes, backstory, etc. In doing so, I've added some scene which contain phone conversations. Is this a total dumb idea? I've heard that dream sequences are sure killers in a book, and I was wondering if the same applied to 'phone sequences.' any advice is oh so appreciated : )

[pconsidine]

I think you can take a lesson from screenplays here. A phone conversation isn't any big deal as long as there's action to go along with the dialogue. I think most people frown on telephone conversations in novels because it often seems like the author had some information he wanted to convey and couldn't think of any other way to do it.

[MadScientistMatt]

Also, be sure that in filling in backstory and such, you're not resorting to, "As you know, Bob" dialog.

[James D. Macdonald]

Dream sequences can be cheap tricks. So can phone conversations. Ask: Is this the best way to tell my story?

If well done and organic to the whole novel there's nothing wrong with either dream sequences or phone conversations. Just be certain that you aren't using them because they were at the top in your bag of tricks and you grabbed the first thing that came to hand.

[NeuroFizz]

One problem with phone conversations is whether you present them as one-way (one person speaking with pauses for the responses) or two-way dialogue. As long as phone conversations are integral to the story, they are a normal part of life, particularly with the level of cell phone usage. One-way conversations can be used to really ramp up suspense. This creates a consistency problem, however, if you want to present both sides of a conversation at another time. Modern phones are useful here. If you use one-way conversations, but want to slip in a two-way, just have the character push the "speaker" button on the phone.

Phone conversations are not equivalent to dreams. In the former, you are using normal dialogue in which the two speakers are not in immediate proximity. If you are writing a contemporary story, avoidance of phones may be unrealistic, particuarly if your character is under thirty years of age and unnmarried, although individuals of all ages and genders seem to be as concerned about cell phone minutes as are teenagers. These days, a cellular phone is an essential security device for many. Hands up, all those who don't have one...

[black winged fighter]

*raises hand* Me, me! (And I'm under 30 years of age and unmarried...)
But a phone conversation won't throw me, or annoy me - unless it's badly done. Why not post the section in the Share Your Work forum and see what others have to say?

[maestrowork]

I have phone conversations in my book. As long as it has a point (part of a dialogue) that moves the story or develop characters, why not?

[Jamesaritchie]

Raises hand, too. Had one my family bought me. Didn't like it, gave it away. Had anotehr, simpler one family also bought me. Didn't like it either. Gave it away. They both had the same probllem. . .people can call you on the blasted things.

[JerseyGirl1962]

They both had the same probllem. . .people can call you on the blasted things.

...unless you keep it turned off and don't give out the number (like I do)! ;)

~Nancy

[Jamesaritchie]

...unless you keep it turned off and don't give out the number (like I do)! ;)

~Nancy

Then people expect you to call them. I don't want to call them. I don't want them to call me. And if I don't want them to call me, and I don't want to call them, what's the point in paying for a cell phone?

I think being out of touch is a good thing. It is, I think, somehow unnatural and unhealthy to be wired in all the time.

[maestrowork]

Cell phone is helpful, I think, for many situations -- on the road, going out, etc. But it doesn't mean just because you have a phone with you, that you're available 24/7. That's what voice mail is for. Just because you have a phone at home doesn't mean people can call you at 3 a.m. or expect you to call them back immediately. That's what answering machines are for.

I love the convenience of having a cell phone, and the peace of mind that if there's an emergency, someone can reach me. Also, if I have an emergency, someone can use my cell to call (you should all have a CAM -- call at emergeny -- number programmed in your cell phone). My friend's life was saved when he had a heart attack because he was able to call 911 on his cell. But my friends and family also know that if it's not urgent or need quick response, they can just send me an email. They know very well (and I tell them so) just because I have a cell phone with me doesn't mean I'm on call. I'll call them when I can or when I want.

[maestrowork]

This thread brings up another question?

Why are dream sequences bad? In movies and TV, they can be used to great effect (e.g. my favorite show, Six Feet Under, uses dream and fantasy sequences beautifully). So why not books? Why are people so turned off my dream sequences in books?

[James D. Macdonald]

The problem with dream sequences is that they're cheap tricks. They're a convenient tool rather than necessarily the right tool.

The question is, about any technique, does it work?

[reph]

Married, over 30, no cell here. Sometimes having one would be useful, but I doubt the thing would pay its way. It seems right and natural to have times – outdoors, especially – when no one can reach me.

[Syrra]

I personally think it depends on the how the dream sequence is done. In my opinion, George R. R. Martin is the master of dream sequences. They are brief and very poignant. They are also full of foreshadowing, which leads to mad speculating among fans. So, I don't consider all dream sequences to be cheap tricks, only the ones that are written that way.
To answer your question, I don't see anything wrong with a phone sequence as long as it isn't used as a cheap trick either.

:)
Syrra

[Zolah]

This thread brings up another question?

Why are dream sequences bad? In movies and TV, they can be used to great effect (e.g. my favorite show, Six Feet Under, uses dream and fantasy sequences beautifully). So why not books? Why are people so turned off my dream sequences in books?

Don't you think it's because, all too often, writers use them as an excuse for a flashback/infodump and fill them with boring stuff that the reader is not interested in? And (the kiss of death) in fantasy and SF they quite often foretell with eerie accuracy what is going to happen, but are just cryptic enough that the dreamer can't figure out what it means in time to stop it (though the reader usually can and is going 'For God's sake! Don't go in the woodshed!') which gets old very quickly.

I don't think the technique is inherantly flawed. Dream sequences have gotten a bad name because lazy writers have used them badly (like flashbacks) but, as with any other technique in fiction, they should stand and fall on the quality of writing. For me as reader, if you're showing me something interesting and moving the story forward, then you can't really go wrong.

[Jamesaritchie]

I think it was probably "Dallas" that did the most harm to dream sequences.

I do think dream sequnces can still be used well, but they've received such a bad reputation from overuse and foolish use that even the good ones have been tainted.

[loquax]

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "dream sequence". If you ask me, it's the same as putting "wake sequence", only more stuff can happen in a dream. Maybe you mean "flashbacks in dreams", "prophetic dreams", or "infodump dreams".

They are just as bad as their waking couterparts.

[jules]

I think it was probably "Dallas" that did the most harm to dream sequences.

Ah, yes. I was a little too young to fully appreciate what was going on there, and why it was bad. But I do remember my parents stopped watching then.

I guess I was just lucky they didn't throw the TV at the wall. ;)

[maestrowork]

Dreams are usually about characters, their psyche, and symbolisms. I think that's why a lot of people don't like them. In movies, dreams can be very effective if they're short and to the point.. (e.g. Pirates of Caribbean, American Beauty, any horror films...) because they're visual and usually an integral part of the story. If they're too cryptic, they'll probably alienate the audience as well. In books, however, I think it requires so much imagination and deep thinking (symbolisms, etc.) on the readers' part that they become distractions from the story.

[DivaWriter]

I wanted to chime in a sec on writing phone conversations.

In the book I'm writing I have several telephone conversations.

I think, as long as they sound like regular dialogue that someone would actually speak and as someone else said, moves the story along, I see no problem including them.

JMTC (Just my two cents). :-)

[Jamesaritchie]

Cell phone is helpful, I think, for many situations -- on the road, going out, etc. But it doesn't mean just because you have a phone with you, that you're available 24/7. That's what voice mail is for. Just because you have a phone at home doesn't mean people can call you at 3 a.m. or expect you to call them back immediately. That's what answering machines are for.

I love the convenience of having a cell phone, and the peace of mind that if there's an emergency, someone can reach me. Also, if I have an emergency, someone can use my cell to call (you should all have a CAM -- call at emergeny -- number programmed in your cell phone). My friend's life was saved when he had a heart attack because he was able to call 911 on his cell. But my friends and family also know that if it's not urgent or need quick response, they can just send me an email. They know very well (and I tell them so) just because I have a cell phone with me doesn't mean I'm on call. I'll call them when I can or when I want.

I know. It's just a matter of personality. The convenience of a cell phone is what I hate most.

I don't have voice mail, either, and don't want it. Yes, a cell phone can be handy in an emergency, but, really, how often do such emergencies arise? I'll take my chances.

I like being cut off and unreachable. I like not being able to call anyone just because the urge hits.

[Lenora Rose]

For what it's worth, I tend to encounter a dream sequence and think, "Uh-oh, not one of these," before I ever see the actual scene and whether it was pulled off right. (They're used a lot in Buffy the TV series, and usually very well - there's one whole episode which is four dream sequences with only the thinnest real world frame, and it's amazing - but I feel that bit of unease before every single one even so)

I've never thought that way about encountering a character telephoning another. I've been disappointed by cruddy or infodumpy dialogue in one, sure - but I feel no wariness going in.

[JAlpha]

Dream sequences can be cheap tricks. So can phone conversations. Ask: Is this the best way to tell my story?

If well done and organic to the whole novel there's nothing wrong with either dream sequences or phone conversations. Just be certain that you aren't using them because they were at the top in your bag of tricks and you grabbed the first thing that came to hand.

Ya what he said :) and . . .

Make sure your characters have something worth saying before you let them open their mouths, in a telephone conversation or otherwise.

[azbikergirl]

I've seen writers attempt a phone conversation where the viewpoint character is on the phone, but the other end of the conversation is not revealed. To me, this doesn't feel consistent with the POV. Now, if the viewpoint char is in the room with someone else who's having the phone conversation (or eavesdropping), that's another matter.

My novel has a recurring dream, but it's only 2 short paragraphs long and it seems like a dream (i.e., it's not intended to make the reader think it's really happening). The dream is significant for the character who has it.

[katee]

I've just written a scene where the viewpoint character is listening in on a phone conversation, in a totally necessary scene for the book.

It was great fun trying to make the phone conversation plausible (ie what the two people would have said) when only reporting one side of the conversation, while still getting across the jist of what the two characters were talking about.

[scribbler1382]

Long, drawn out dream sequences can be a PITA to the reader. I know that when I'm reading, if I find out the last 10 pages were "fake" I'm always a little perturbed. On the otherhand, if used properly, dream sequences can be extremely effective, especially at implementing foreshadowing and character motivations.

For instance, I was reading a thriller recently where a female FBI agent was in love with a famed art thief, even though she didn't know the thief's true identity. His calling card was a white rose at the crime scene. There was a short dream sequence where she was with the mysterious thief as a lover, but when she looked at his face, it was blank except for empty eyesockets with white rose buds in them. This was short, to the point and laid out the relationship in no uncertain terms.

As far as phone conversations, I'm not quite sure I see what the problem with them is, unless you're talking about phone calls used for info dumps; but then anything used as an info dump is annoying, lazy and a betrayal of the reader's investment, IMO.

[aadams73]

I read a very well done and informative phone call scene today, in Tess Gerritsen's medical thriller "Body Double." If you're near a library or book store, pick it up and have a read.

[scfirenice]

I have both short phone conversations and short dream sequences. Ask yourself, "What's the point here?" If the answer is you need to take up pages then throw it out. In my case, her dreams come true over time and are just another manifestation of my characters power. Phone calls can be Ok, we all make them every day, just keep them short and on point.
S

[Mistook]

I saw an old episode of Columbo last night, and half the show is taken up by him asking people "do you mind if I use your phone? It'll only take a minute." and then they show him dialing - with an actual rotory dial.

But somehow he still caught the bad guy.

[Tish Davidson]

Then people expect you to call them. I don't want to call them. I don't want them to call me. And if I don't want them to call me, and I don't want to call them, what's the point in paying for a cell phone?

I think being out of touch is a good thing. It is, I think, somehow unnatural and unhealthy to be wired in all the time.


My prediction is that rather than being constantly connected, the next big status symbol will be being important enough to be out of touch so that people have to wait for you to get in touch with them. I despise my cell phone, rarely turn it on, and only have given the number to my immediate family. I LIKE silence.

[Tish Davidson]

Copied this over from the flashback thread, since dreams are being discussed here, too.

I hate it when authors use dreams for character development, foreshadowing, or to give background information. It is often enough to make me stop reading a marginally interesting book. The reason is because the dreams in novels are almost always presented as long, lucid, coherent and heavy with symbolism. Dreams in real life are often confusing, fragmented, and don't convey any obvious deep meanings - or at least mine are. My dreams are often bits and pieces with no real beginning, middle, end, and they often seem to be a jumble of random bits of reality. It stretches my suspension of disbelief beyond the breaking point when a character relates a clear, lucid, and obviously significant dream in a novel. I don't mind fragments or nightmares, but I think it is a cheat to use them for character development or as flashbacks.

[alaskamatt17]

I confess to using dream sequences in my books. In my sci-fi, it's the only way one of the characters can communicate with the others long distance. Several of the major characters have nanobots in their brain that allow them to "see" other people who have similar implants if both of them are experiencing REM.

[stranger]

I'm a bit distressed by all the negative press dream sequences seem to have. In my WIP, a fantasy, the only magic is the ability to dream the future. And three important characters (including the MC) have this ability and it underpins my whole story.

[Zolah]

I'm a bit distressed by all the negative press dream sequences seem to have. In my WIP, a fantasy, the only magic is the ability to dream the future. And three important characters (including the MC) have this ability and it underpins my whole story.

Don't worry about it for a moment. Your story is a whole other thing - and it sounds good to me.

[Julie Worth]

Looking at my own work, I do sex scenes and dream sequences best. They’re fun to write (and read), and need almost no rewriting. I have more difficulty with the phone. For me, phone conversations would be boring if it was just a disembodied voice and a person in a booth, so I always have something else going on. Still, I agree that it’s all in the execution. Anyone saying that phone conversations are deadly is just saying she can’t write phone conversations.

[Lindsey]

Hi everybody. i'm almost, almost finished with my book. just filling in some missing scenes, backstory, etc. In doing so, I've added some scene which contain phone conversations. Is this a total dumb idea? I've heard that dream sequences are sure killers in a book, and I was wondering if the same applied to 'phone sequences.' any advice is oh so appreciated : )

My god no... some of my favorite novels have dream sequences in them, and phone conversations. I find phone conversations very interesting... especially if you show the reactions of one of the people on the phone. It doesn't have to be straight dialogue, you can say stuff like:

Susie twisted the cord in her hands, gripping it tight like a life line. "Who are you?" she demanded, trying desperately to keep her voice from squeaking.
Heavy breathing rasped into her ear. "I know your alone..." whispered a low male voice.
Susie's hands began to shake violently. She wiped the cold beads of sweat that dotted her forehead. Grasping the receiver with a white knuckled grip, she managed to find her voice. "Tell me who this is or I'm hanging up."
"You wouldn't do that..." he replied coolly.
But that's just what she did. She slammed the phone down.

That’s a poor piece of writing.... but it demonstrates at least. Here’s what I would recommend not to do:

"Who is this?" Susie demanded.
"I know you’re alone..." whispered a low male voice.
She grasped the receiver tightly. "Tell me who this is or I'm hanging up."
"You wouldn't do that..."
But that's just what she did. She slammed the phone down.

Over all... I find phone conversations and dream sequences very interesting... they're a nice change from the ordinary story line, (didn't choose the right words there... hopefully you know what I mean.) However, they do have to be well written.

This is just my opinion, I'm not as experienced as the other writers, so don't take my comments to heart. Also I apologize for the funky spacing... my computer's old. Thanks.

[Lenora Rose]

I hate it when authors use dreams for character development, foreshadowing, or to give background information. It is often enough to make me stop reading a marginally interesting book. The reason is because the dreams in novels are almost always presented as long, lucid, coherent and heavy with symbolism. Dreams in real life are often confusing, fragmented, and don't convey any obvious deep meanings - or at least mine are. My dreams are often bits and pieces with no real beginning, middle, end, and they often seem to be a jumble of random bits of reality. It stretches my suspension of disbelief beyond the breaking point when a character relates a clear, lucid, and obviously significant dream in a novel. I don't mind fragments or nightmares, but I think it is a cheat to use them for character development or as flashbacks.

I'm willing to accept dreams as prophetic if the setting is one in which magic obviously works, or there's some scientific advance, etc. It's like any other gimme for a world that isn't ours.

And I have to say, while it's true that dreams tend to be odd and disjointed and far less smooth than they show up in most prose, I have had sudden realizations about myself or someone I knew based on a dream - because the dream dropped all the pieces into the foreground that my subconscious had been picking up, and put them together for me. Character development, of a sort.

I've also had ones that helped me work out grief over a pet -- but I don't want to talk about that dream to someone who wasn't there or might think mourning an animal, or having a dream be therapeutic, or both, is silly.

I've also had ones that were logical enough to make a story plot out of.

OTOH, I agree with you about flashbacks, unless the memory is very brief. The times I remember something real that well, it's for a moment, in a larger narrative.

[Higgins]

Hi everybody. i'm almost, almost finished with my book. just filling in some missing scenes, backstory, etc. In doing so, I've added some scene which contain phone conversations. Is this a total dumb idea? I've heard that dream sequences are sure killers in a book, and I was wondering if the same applied to 'phone sequences.' any advice is oh so appreciated : )

A lot of the "advice" given to writers boils down to: don't do anything that involves a specialized set of techniques. The fact is you can write perfectly fine phone scenes or dream scenes as long as you pay a little attention to the technical side of writing. Apparently in the world of "creative" writing (from whence a lot of anti-technical advice seems to eminate), the basic idea is that everybody has seen the world and they can all show it in an acceptible form. Hence all the nonsense about showing and not telling. The fact is that stories have to be told to some degree and you can't dodge the issue by any amount of creative showing.
It's the same thing with phones and dreams: they do happen and they should not be considered beyond the technical means of a moderately technically sophisticated writer.

So when you are in a fix and need a dream or a phone call, think how will I manage it technically, not how will I show it creatively.

[Shadow_Ferret]

Uh-oh. I have both a dream sequence AND a few phone conversations in mine.

Shame on me.

They're short conversations and they're written like any other dialog. One person speaks and the other speaks and they convey information needed in the story. But the characters are busy and just like in real life can't meet vis-a-vis to talk so they use a cellphone.

[John61480]

I have a 911 phone call in chapter 2 of my horror WIP: between a 16 yr old babysitter and and an operator – for about a page of double spaced sentences. It's interspersed with the babysitter frantically dealing with two little children. I don't know if something like that would count though.

[James D. Macdonald]

Make sure something interesting is happening. That's all.

[RG570]

I have both in mine too...The phone conversation is short and one-sided, and I never thought that it might be a bad idea.

But the dreams I wrote are kind of trippy. I don't know why this is all of a sudden a bad thing. I just...don't understand. I've read many books which use this device and I've always found it interesting.

I tend to have a lot of psychological detail in my novels. And in this one in particular, I have a lifeform which is incapable of speaking to people, that they don't even know is there, and can only reach people subconsciously. I thought that the dreams helped that.

Well, just when I thought things were going smoothly with this piece, now I have to rethink it. Bleh.

ETA: I do not own a cellphone, and never will.

[Becky Writes]

In my WIP, my characters talk on the phone several times, and I didn't view it as any different as if they were sitting in the same room talking.

My WIP is 3rd person limited, and she is in the room when her love interest takes a call from his mom and we only hear his end of the conversation. How do you write this when she is just standing there next to him listening? How do you put the pauses in?

[DeadlyAccurate]

My character is on her mobile as much as Jack Bauer. For one, in my future, landline phones are pretty much nonexistent, so the phone is always with her. For another, the technology to track someone by their phone exists and plays a role in the sort of Big Brother society she lives in. Also, she has one contact she's never met and she doesn't even know what country he lives in, but he's vital to helping her with her work.

And we just got our first mobile phone a few months ago. It's a Tracphone, and the only people who know the number are my husband and me. His new job doesn't give him his own phone, and it's sort of assumed at his company that everyone has one, so it kind of became necessary finally. It's come in handy for those little things that occasionally make you say, "Boy, I wish I had a phone right now," but it mostly gets used for its stopwatch when we run.

ETA for Becky: You could try writing the entire conversation and then remove the parts she wouldn't be able to hear.

[John61480]

If you want pauses, try ellipsis(...) and em-dashes ( – ).

[josephwise]

My theory here is that the dream/phone sequence isn't usually important...the important thing is its outcome, and what it means for the characters. Real dreams don't convey useful information to the reader, and limited POV phone calls naturally don't convey correct information. But they do have a meaning for the characters involved.

So I ask myself, can't I get that meaning across without actually showing the dream or phone call? In most cases, yes, I can. Thus the sequence itself becomes irrelevant.

I'd much rather write:

We found Janice outside, pacing and straightening the fringe of the umbrella. Her hands shook.

Ed tried to get her to sit down. "Was that Ryan?"

She shook her head. "No," was all she could manage at first.

Than:

Janice answered the phone before the first ring ended. "Ryan?"

She put her hands to her lips. "Yes, this is she."

Her knees twitched as she listened. She leaned against the wall, and then straightend, and then tried to sit. "You mean, he's gone?"

None of us could breath.

I'm sure it can be done well either way. Personally, I have more fun with focussing on the outcome, though.

[Jack_Roberts]

Whew and uh oh!

Well, no phones in my novel because they haven’t been invented yet.

But there is one tiny prophetic dream sequence to give the reader a clue that something big will change really soon.

That's in the third chapter of the partial the potential agent is looking at.

Then after my main character dies, before she is reborn, she has a big dream sequence that shows brief glimpses of history, foreshadowing events in the first book and future books.

Now I’m scared.

Dang! And I already printed all 449 pages for her to look at upon request and for my teacher friend to read to his class.

NEVER should have taken my other friend’s advice on adding the sequence. Now all I can do is wait and worry.

[maestrowork]

Keep them short.

Everything is fine as long as you do it well.

To me, phone conversation is just another way to do dialogue, but it's more static and one-sided. You have to be very careful about dream sequences -- what are you trying to accomplish? Can you do that some other way? Does it work with your story?

[Garpy]

I despise dream sequences with a passion, particularly if they offer the antagonist a 'clue' or a hint on the story ahead. For me as a reader, that's cheating...that's giving the antagonist an insight that they simply wouldn't have in real life. Because, let's face it, dreams are just the synapsis randomly firing off, as the brain gets its nightly work-out. Dreams therefore cannot be interpreted....the random images generated can't be decoded, as there is no meaning there, nothing, nada.

Dream sequences are cheaty writing, they're also cheesy and I really hate them. In fact, if I come across a dream sequence, I'll just think 'ahh screw this' and skip the chapter if I'm enjoying the book...if I'm not, it's in the bin.

And this is all just my own opinion...I'm not saying 'you're a lame writer if you use dream sequences'....it's just that I, personally, don't like 'em.

[RedMolly]

My protag has dreams, but they're actually just someone showing up and talking to him during his sleep.

More like "lucid dreaming" (which I don't believe in, but hey, it's a fantasy novel) than anything REM-sleep related.

[Shadow_Ferret]

Dream sequences are cheaty writing, they're also cheesy and I really hate them. In fact, if I come across a dream sequence, I'll just think 'ahh screw this' and skip the chapter if I'm enjoying the book...if I'm not, it's in the bin.



Well then you'll be happy to know my dream sequence (nightmare actually) is less than a page and offers nothing to the antagonist. It's merely the random firing of synapses in my MC as he processes events that have happened within the last 24 hours.

[Andre_Laurent]

I have both short phone conversations and short dream sequences. Ask yourself, "What's the point here?" If the answer is you need to take up pages then throw it out. In my case, her dreams come true over time and are just another manifestation of my characters power. Phone calls can be Ok, we all make them every day, just keep them short and on point.
S
I have a short phone conversation and a short dream sequence (one paragraph) and even though the dream hints that the MC might have done something really horrible and brought all kinds of bad things on himself because of it... maybe I need to find a better way to get that information out. :rant:

[blacbird]

Raises hand, too. Had one my family bought me. Didn't like it, gave it away. Had anotehr, simpler one family also bought me. Didn't like it either. Gave it away. They both had the same probllem. . .people can call you on the blasted things.

Amen. I have one, but it resides in my car and is only used for relatively emergency situations. Nobody has the number except my wife and at-home son. I think I've used it twice in the past year.

As a digressive aside, I was getting my car registration renewed a couple of weeks ago, a procedure which involves an emissions check, and standing around waiting for that to be completed, with another man awaiting the same thing. His car got finished about ten seconds before mine, and I watched him get in it, start it, reach into his pocket, pull out his cell phone, dial it and cradle it against his ear as he drove out of the parking lot. All I could think was Why in hell he didn't make the phone call while he was standing around doing nothing? Is cell-phoning while driving a car that addictive?

caw.

[KiwiChick]

My protag has dreams, but they're actually just someone showing up and talking to him during his sleep.

More like "lucid dreaming" (which I don't believe in, but hey, it's a fantasy novel) than anything REM-sleep related.

What? You don't believe in lucid dreaming? Sorry, trying to get my head around that. Lucid dreaming isn't anything weird and paranormal, it's just a dream when you realise you're dreaming and regain a fairly normal state of mind, but stay in your dream. Then you can wander around and decide what to do. I get them pretty often. Now dreams where other dream characters are real people who are also dreaming are a bit more far out... :)

EDIT: And I don't have a cellphone either (under 30).

[RedMolly]

Hey, sorry, KiwiChick... I misspoke. I have an acquaintance who's into all sorts of sleep/dream/New Age things who firmly believes that if you're good enough at "lucid dreaming," you can enter other people's dreams and chat with them. That's what I was referring to; I didn't mean to tar the whole phenom with the same brush.

(My brother is an avid lucid dreamer... wow, that phrase really doesn't parse... guess I should've checked my terminology with him first.)

[Shadow_Ferret]

This is the first I heard of the phenomenon, but I don't believe in it. :)

Seems to me, if you're lucid, then you technically aren't dreaming any more. At least not REM sleep, it's more daydreaming or visualizing or, if you believe in that sort of thing, astral projecting.

[Andre_Laurent]

This is the first I heard of the phenomenon, but I don't believe in it. :)

Seems to me, if you're lucid, then you technically aren't dreaming any more. At least not REM sleep, it's more daydreaming or visualizing or, if you believe in that sort of thing, astral projecting.
Believe it. :D I've done it a few times.

[rekirts]

In my WSIP (Work Stalled In Progress) I had a very short dream sequence. I think it was a paragraph long. Its purpose was foreshadowing. Some characters in the story have second sight and can astral project and stuff so I don't think a dream like that is out of place. Since the novel may never be finished, however, it probably doesn't matter if it works or not.

[Atlantis]

I use phone conversations and dreams in my book all the time. With phone conversations, I mix the dialogue with action. I don't just have dialogue, I have the person holding the phone doing things at the same time while they're having a conversation, such as brushing their hair or searching for something in a desk. I also put the lines of dialogue of the person on the other end of the phone in underline. Example:

Charlotte gave a loud snort down the phone. “You read way too many comic books, my dear friend.” Simone flopped back onto a pile of pillows and sighed. “Don’t speak to me about comics. My life is so weird I sometimes feel like I’m living in an X-men comic.” She pointed a finger at a chest of drawers. Dylan shrieked and clapped his hands together as a blanket rose out of the drawers and floated over to the bed.
“What’s going on?” demanded Charlotte over the phone.
“Nothing,” said Simone, dragging the blanket over Dylan. “I just used a little telekineses to get a blanket out of the chest of drawers. It excites the baby.”


As for dreams, I have a major plot line that almost entirely unfolds in a series of dreams, that are actually repressed memories from a previous life. I have the dreams written in large blocks of underline and usually end with the character waking up. Dreams can work if done carefully enough so can phone conversations. Just aim to make it all realistic. When you are on the phone, do you fiddle with your hair? your shoes? do you stare around the room? When you wake up from a weird dream, do the images flash through your mind for a few minutes before fading? Add these in.

[gp101]

This thread brings up another question?

Why are dream sequences bad? In movies and TV, they can be used to great effect (e.g. my favorite show, Six Feet Under, uses dream and fantasy sequences beautifully). So why not books? Why are people so turned off my dream sequences in books?

Do you watch Sopranos? When Tony got shot they had an episode where the majority of it was Tony dreaming he was a lost salesman. I don't want lost salesmen in a mafia TV series. Especially when it's all symbolic. And I think symbolism is a big problem with dream sequences in general. Writers think they're being cool or particularly "literary" by teasing the reader with symbols. If I want symbolism I'll get my tarrot cards read.

Unless you're writing for the LIFETIME network, or whatever they call it, or the dream is steamy sex--and maybe involves me--I don't want to read it.

[Patricia]

To me a well-written dream scene or phone conversation that is relevant to the story line would be a natural occurrence. After all people do have dreams, and phone conversations.

[Imelda]

The worlds I write in have no phones, so that solves one problem for me :). As for dreams, I think they're fine if they're done right. The important thing about them is that they have to be necessary to the story. If they're not, then they shouldn't be in there, full stopp, no matter how cool you think they are. The dreams in my book are very important because my protag gets attacked by shadow creatures when she sleeps, and they can only suffocate her mind when she's dreaming.

[Carrie in PA]

Hmmm, I have a couple of phone conversations in my WIP, and a sorta-not-quite dream sequence. It's actually just the Leading Man trying to wake my MC from a nightmare and she tells him what she was dreaming. I wonder if that's cheesetastic? :tongue

Aside: I have a cell phone. My DH, my mom and DS's school are the only ones who have the number. I like being reachable in case of emergency, but it's for MY convenience, no one else's. Kinda like my home phone. That's why I pay for Caller ID and have an answering machine.

[Oliveman]

For my novel I'm thinking of using the concept of dreams as an integral part of the mystical aspect of the world. I do not plan to tell about the dreams, but rather show character's reactions to them, and the effect dreaming has on the world. Is this feasible? Do tell, do tell.

[janetbellinger]

I also think showing can be overdone. I mean, give the readers soome credit for the intelligence and imagination to figure some things out for themselves. All this showing exactly what the writer wants us to see doesn't leave any room for the reader to imagine it as (s)he fancies.

[Oliveman]

This was the wall I was running up against in the concept. It is hard to explain something so surreal in a moving way. However, I believe the concept of dreams: being elusive, deep, and without being constrained to society, could make it possible to create a compelling image that any reader would be attracted too. After all, we all dream our crazy, elusive dreams. In the world I'm creating, I'm playing with the idea that some people do not.