thickening of the skin

[shan]

...hey, not a bad title! :Clap:

i was reading the threat about revision and self-editing and wondered how writers deal with having your work critiqued. i'm sure this has come up on this forum more than once, but without going into a HUGE debate about it, can you guys enlighten me? i'm not one to see my own flaws right away, either. for instance, i am trying to edit my book down - it's just over 700 pages and it seems the harder i try to cut it down, the longer it gets! i remember someone said the word count was more important, but i am not exactly sure what it is at the moment. at this point i don't want to know!

how do you deal with hearing someone tell you "this part is way too boring" or "take this scene (or chapter!) out" when you just can't stand the thought of cutting one word? logically, i know that everyone isn't going to read the same thing that i do. and again, logically, i realize that i shouldn't take it personally. right?:Shrug: but at the same time when i hear "positive" critisicm i still cringe with pain. do you get past this, or are there some who simply never do? i feel so weak!

[Vanessa]

Hi Shan,

I can understand your concern, however, you are aware that revision is very necessary? It's what the whole book is about. Now as far as who is recommending changes; hopefully they are someone you credit as worthy or professional enough to recognize the needed edits. With that being said, the skin must become thick and the trust must be engaged. If however it is someone that likes to read and offer services for free or whatever, then this is when you have to go with your gut and trust where it is that you want to take your book. Good advice is necessary, but the end result is up to you. If you're taking this thing to a professional level then have the piece edited by a professional. Editing is an integral part of writing. And 'NEVER" take it personally. There are lots of people here who are talented and knowlegeable and can help. Just let go of the thin skin. It's not attractive at all in this business. Good Luck and Wishing you Well.

[maestrowork]

"Trust" is a good one.

You also need to learn how to detach yourself (person) from your story (your work). Most people have problems because they feel that the criticism on their work is attack on them as people: your story doesn't work, so you suck!

A good writer should learn to accept any work -- no matter how wonderful it is -- can be improved. And nobody's work is perfect. Also, remember, critiques are only opinions. A writer must learn to not take the opinions personally, and must learn how to pick the gems out of the duds.

Sometimes it also comes down to "I'm right, so you must be wrong." Instead, you should look at it as a "collaboration." You must let go of the feeling that as the writer, you must be "right" all the time.


One thing to do, perhaps, is to let the work sit there for a while, to help you detach from it. Next time you pick it up, it would feel like someone else wrote that... perhaps, then, you won't take it too personally. And when you do, walk away and take a cold shower, then tell yourself, it's okay, it's just an opinion.

It comes with practice. I'm so much better with criticism than I was 10 years ago. It's funny, really, because I am a much better writer now than I was 10 years ago! :)

[jackie106]

Get the opinion of someone whose writing and/or editing skills you respect.

Are you in a critique group or writing class? You could trade manuscripts with a friend from class. (You might want to offer a partial instead of the whole 700-page manuscript.)

Brutal critiques are never fun, but if you care about your manuscript you will listen to people who tell you what works and what doesn't.

I don't know if your 700-word manuscript is saleable, but supersized first novels have been published. Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell was a big bestseller last X-mas.

Jackie

[Jamesaritchie]

I take criticism from editors very well. I don't take criticism from others at all.

Part of this stems from showing a couple of very early stories to critique groups that were supposed to be very good, and that had some pro writers. I received criticism in spades, all of it saying something was wrong here, something else was wrong there, and let's not even talk about this, that, and that other. Not one person said the stories were publishable as they stood, and several said they definitely were not. Not one person said anything good at all about the stories.

This did not hurt, and I did not in any way feel insulted, but after reading the stories again myself, I simply disagreed. So I submitted the things, and both of them not only sold to very good magazines the first time out, the editors never had to change a thing.

My real problem with critiquers is that the run of the mill critiquer is looking for something wrong in a story, and he'll find it, whether it's there or not. I'm pretty sure I've never seen a critiqued story that didn't have all sorts of things wrong, if you believe the critiquer.

If you want to have some fun, copy three or four fairly famous short stories and stick your name on them, then hand them over to a critique group, or to a couple of your beta readers. Assuming they haven't read the stories, odds are extremely high you'll get the stories back with all sorts of complaints. You can do the same thing with "hired" editors, and get the same results.

This is particularly fun to do in a college writing course, and it's something I've known a couple of professors to do just to make a point. Seeing this done a few times really made me a believer.

I've found good editors do not look for things that are wrong, though if something really is wrong it will usually jump out at them. What editors look for are simply things that can be improved. . .and if it doesn't need improved, they leave it alone.

Maybe it's just that I'm surer of my opinion that the opinion of the average critiquer, or maybe it's just that I don't mind being given advice as long as it goes along with what I intended to do anyway, but I've found that if writing is anywhere near professional quality, editors will give you the right kind of advice pretty much every last time, and if writing isn't very near professional quality, all the critiques in the world won't make it so.

I simply find that working editors who buy good fiction for a living also look at manuscripts in different way, and the way they look at it works for me extremely well. I think we all need a second set of eyes, but I want my second set stuck firmly in the head of a working editor.

[Perks]

Heh heh. If you could only walk a mile in my shoes. I've been picking shrapnel outta my hide quite a lot recently.

I think that you have to enjoy the critiquing process, especially when you believe that your advisors aren't looking to score points off of you. If you admire their talents and tastes, then just accept that every book is, in some way or many ways, a collaborative process. Maybe sometimes the acknowledgment page is as telling and important as the by-line.

First you turned loose your creativity. Now it's time to free your inner masochist - you gotta love it. Then you can decide just how much you're willing to suffer for your project. Personally, I laugh at myself all the time, so suffering is minimal.

[James D. Macdonald]

You aren't the one being criticized. What's being critiqued is black marks on white paper.

[shan]

good advice from everyone - i love this place. it sucks when you post a thread quite important to you and it gets no action at all.

fortunately, i have a friend who has published several romance novels and she has been a great help to me. i've spoken of this conference thing i'm going to next month; she said if she is free she will come along with me, which will be a great support to me.

i just wonder where the line is drawn...when you say - sorry, i can't agree with that and trust your own instinct. i envy you, jamesaritchie - for being able to separate criticism from good, usable advice. i know you are right. i was telling my friend that i mentioned above that i had been putting off for years trying to publish a novel because if i was told it wasn't good i would wonder what in the hell i would do then - writing is what has come easily to me all my life. she said, "if you really feel that way, you might as well get out of the business now." i just have to forge ahead! :Headbang:

and thanks, jackie - that did really make me feel better about this blasted length. i still feel i can whittle it down - it is just not easy. labor of love, i suppose. but i am determined to see this through - i have waited too long to try and i have put way too much work into the manuscript to just toss it because i might get my feelings hurt.

[icerose]

Hi Shan,
The first criticism I received was from my sister. At first it stung and my first instinct was to react with anger. I took a deep breath stepped back and read my work. And you know what? She was right. Since then I have valued criticism above all other comments because I discovered through criticism I have grown the most as a writer. I find criticism priceless and sometimes very hard to get. Even if you don't agree with any of the criticism just thank the person, read their comments, go over your story. If you can't see any benefit step back for a couple of days, think about their comments, and go over your story again. If you can't see how it benefits your story at all, then just file it away as experience, but chances are if the person is giving you honest criticism, those comments can do wonders for your writing.

First few times can be hard, grit your teeth, take a breather or two and as the sting fades you can see the benefits. It won't be long before you start seeking those beneficial critics.

Good luck. :D
Sara

[Julie Worth]

how do you deal with hearing someone tell you "this part is way too boring" or "take this scene (or chapter!) out" when you just can't stand the thought of cutting one word?

No one will miss all the good stuff you leave out. --anon

[reph]

Once, in college, I showed a roommate something I'd written. She ridiculed it. I mean, ridiculed it! Years passed before I tried to write anything imaginative again. After all, she was an English major and I wasn't. She must have been qualified to judge.

A few years later, this woman and I weren't roommates, but we were still acquaintances. I mentioned that I'd passed the test for freelance editors at our university's press. She looked sober and said only "I've seen that test."

Pick your critiquers well. Make sure they aren't all adolescents.

[Aconite]

shan, it helps to keep in mind that when you ask for critiques, you're asking for people's responses to your work. Think of it as test marketing. If six people say, "This part was too slow, and I was bored," then you know that part isn't working the way you want it to, and you know you need to change that. If one person says "I hated the story because the hero had the same name as my rotten uncle," you can safely ignore that part of the critique.

Other things to remember about critiques: they are about your work, not about you; you are not under any obligation to take any advice offered, including advice about how to fix problems; and the proper response to a critique, even one you violently disagree with, is "Thanks for your feedback" (if someone's critique hasn't been helpful, just don't ask them to critique your work again. Thank them anyway--they did you a favor by reading and responding to your work).