What to do with the giant on your laptop (or when a novel can't get shorter)

[Libbie]

Oh, and re: ages of characters. I forgot to add. I am currently submitting my novel, a historical. My main/POV character is thirteen at the beginning and twenty-two by the end. I never even thought to submit it to agents who represent YA. I think the theme and content of my book is more appealing to adults than to kids, even given her age.

I am currently waiting to hear back on revisions I did for an agent who was very interested but wanted to see a few changes (apropos: She wanted me to cut it from 110K to between 70K and 90K, because not only did she feel it dragged in places with unnecessary backstory and/or subplots, but she felt she couldn't sell a debut novel that large, even though she really liked my writing. And historical is one of those genres that often features books with bloated wordcounts, just like fantasy. I found it was easier than I thought it would be to pare away the unneeded stuff, and it clocked in at just under 82K at the end of revisions.)

Anyway, this agent seems very enthusiastic about my book. She does not represent YA at all. So I'm even experiencing my hypothesis myself, that young characters =/= YA novel.

[kaitie]

I am currently waiting to hear back on revisions I did for an agent who was very interested but wanted to see a few changes (apropos: She wanted me to cut it from 110K to between 70K and 90K, because not only did she feel it dragged in places with unnecessary backstory and/or subplots, but she felt she couldn't sell a debut novel that large, even though she really liked my writing. And historical is one of those genres that often features books with bloated wordcounts, just like fantasy. I found it was easier than I thought it would be to pare away the unneeded stuff, and it clocked in at just under 82K at the end of revisions.)


Argh. And here I was just dancing that I'm going to be able to get this thing down to 125k. I'm going to go cry now.

[Libbie]

Hey, this is just one agent. And this is considering my particular way of writing, too. I have a very "literary" narrative voice that probably would get tiring after too many pages. In short doses, I imagine it's exciting, fresh, and perhaps even moving. Too much of it would probably make the reader feel all sluggish and comatose, like too much fudge.

I should also note that I got a partial request from an equally enthusiastic agent (who wasn't even accepting unsolicited queries at the time -- oops!) with my 110K-wordcount query letter. He ultimately ended up passing, though. Possibly because of all the unnecessary subplots? Ha ha!

Anyway, I was able to cut away everything that didn't need to be there in about three days, and rewrites (as JoB said, cutting changes the entire plot and the characters, so rewrites are necessary) took another week or so. This was all done, I should note, while working more than full time, seven days a week, so it's not like I was pulling a tt42 and writing for ten hours a day. :D

If you're interested, PM me and I'll let you know the method I used to trim the fat. It worked so well, I'm never going to leave this step out of future revisions for future books.

[katiemac]

As for books with young protagonists that were marketed to and sold extremely well to adults, I can think of several. Lord of the Flies, A Clockwork Orange, Tom Sawyer, The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn, The Lovely Bones...

I just wanted to point out that most of the books mentioned above were published before the young adult genre even existed, notably Huck Finn, Tom Sawyer and Lord of the Flies. Lord of the Flies (1954) is one of the novels, along with Catcher in the Rye (1951) you can point to historically that helped advent young adult as a genre, since they attracted young readers. Modern young adult fiction as a category only really got its start in the 1950s/60s (also around the time of A Clockwork Orange), and we're only in the past few years seeing an influx of edgy YA.

So although the books mentioned above certainly have young protagonists that appeal to both teens and adults, you may want to peruse the more current bookshelves to see what's attracting both kinds of readers now that young adult is a genre in full swing.

[K.L. Townsend]

Sorry. That should have been BELOW the 75-80k range. Mine seem to invariably start around 60k at the first draft. That is "officially" novel length but not long enough.

Edit: But it also depends on genre. I think for a fantasy, possibly a lot would consider 80k a bit too short and it might actually be a disadvantage. I think it would be for a historical which are known to run even longer than most fantasies.

Thanks for that clarification! And yes, genre is massively important.

[Anahid21]

You are way smart and way realistic. I have no doubt you'll be published some day.

Thanks for the kind words. It helps to know you're at least doing it right, even if it's a long way to get there.


You'll find an insistence on these forums that "if it has teen characters, you must sell it as YA." I've seen nothing to support this in the reading I've done, and I've heard nothing to support this from the people I know who work in the publishing industry. Unfortunately this belief is so wide-spread that some people have even gone back and revised their books to change the age of their MC just because they wanted to write an "adult" book instead of a YA book.

Would you believe I was one of those? Some of my test readers told me the characters were too young for the things they did in my story. But my setting is Middle East circa 15th century. My understanding is that children grew up faster back then. There are historical records of a prince who led armies at 16. Still, I caved in and raised the ages to escape the word length restriction for YA, because my understanding was if you had 14 year olds, it can't be anything but YA. Now I'm rethinking it and most likely changing it back. The titles you've mentioned Libbie are great examples of a) stories with young MC's aimed at adults and, b) young characters who do grown up things. Would anyone complain that the children in George R.R. Martin's A Game of Thrones are too young to go to war and deal with death and other horrors? That book was marketed to adults, yet half the cast were teens. Besides I know of at least one teenager who enjoyed that series. Perhaps we should give our teens, and our teen characters, a little more credit.


I hope that helps! :)
It does. Thank you. And good luck with the agent.

[job]

My understanding is that children grew up faster back then.

When Joan of Arc turned 21, she'd been dead for two years.

[Slushie]

My understanding is that children grew up faster back then. There are historical records of a prince who led armies at 16.

Alexander the Great beat down an uprising of the Maedi while he was babysitting the Macedonian Empire. He drove the rebels from their territory and founded Alexandropolis in their wake. He was sixteen. He conquered all of Asia Minor before he died at thirty-three. So yeah, probably the life style back then forced maturity at an earlier age. People didn't live as long, too, so it may not have been "early" by their standards.

[Anahid21]

When Joan of Arc turned 21, she'd been dead for two years.
Alexander the Great beat down an uprising of the Maedi while he was babysitting the Macedonian Empire. He drove the rebels from their territory and founded Alexandropolis in their wake. He was sixteen. He conquered all of Asia Minor before he died at thirty-three. So yeah, probably the life style back then forced maturity at an earlier age. People didn't live as long, too, so it may not have been "early" by their standards.

Exactly. My story is fantasy, but I'm drawing a picture of the Middle East back then. Boys worked like men, girls married in their teens. I can't have an 18 year old girl going on adventures without people wondering why she isn't already married with kids. When I raised the ages of my characters suddenly everything seemed less authentic and more like a modern carbon copy of the world I was trying to build. Not good.

[Slushie]

Exactly. My story is fantasy, but I'm drawing a picture of the Middle East back then. Boys worked like men, girls married in their teens. I can't have an 18 year old girl going on adventures without people wondering why she isn't already married with kids. When I raised the ages of my characters suddenly everything seemed less authentic and more like a modern carbon copy of the world I was trying to build. Not good.
Speaking from under my ReadingHat, I'd have no problem with a young teenager going on a quest in the fifteenth century. Seems reasonable and, based on the examples given in other posts, there are precedents.

There's a lot of great advice on these boards as well as some dubious advice (this thread is a PERFECT example). If you can weed the good from the bad then this place can improve your skills, no matter where one is in the process of becoming The Greatest Writer Ever. But in the end, you have to write your story; make sure you're doing the changes you want and understand. Reducing the word count is stellar advice for saleability/getting published. However, raising the age of your younger characters because young kids are inept (that was why, right?) is [IMO] under the Dubious Advice category.

Filtering advice is key and the truth is: some people's posts/opinions carry more weight than others. I think you've got a great attitude, dude; keep at it.

[Medievalist]

Speaking from under my ReadingHat, I'd have no problem with a young teenager going on a quest in the fifteenth century.

I'd have huge problems.

People didn't go on quests; that's an invention of Robort de Boron writing Arthurian fan fic in the thirteenth century.

People, including teens, went on pilgrimages and crusades and off to the wars. They also got shipped all over as wedding-fodder and pages as apprentices.

[blacbird]

I'd have huge problems.

People didn't go on quests; that's an invention of Robort de Boron writing Arthurian fan fic in the thirteenth century.

Well, yeah, from a factual historical standpoint, of course this is true. But we're talking fantasy here. Nobody ever went on a ride in a Time Machine, either (H.G. Wells). Nobody ever discovered a whole new universe via a magic wardrobe (C.S. Lewis). Nobody ever got transported back to the 12th Century by being smacked on the head with a wrench (Mark Twain). I very much doubt that Odysseus ever factually encountered beautiful and sinister sirens and a cyclops.

But all those examples, and many more, clearly have worked as literary entertainments.

Hey, Bill and Ted even had an excellent (and entertaining) adventure. Historical factuality is only a segment of the pie-chart of good entertaining literature.

caw

[Birol]

But, based on what Anahid has said, they want their fantasy to be in a more accurate setting.

[blacbird]

But, based on what Anahid has said, they want their fantasy to be in a more accurate setting.

"They"? Anahid does, perhaps, which I don't denigrate. But my point was that, if you intend to write "fantasy", you've already made the decision to divorce your setting, to some significant degree, from gritty historical realism. Otherwise it's not . . . ummmmmmmmmmmm . . . fantasy.

caw

[Albannach]

"They"? Anahid does, perhaps, which I don't denigrate. But my point was that, if you intend to write "fantasy", you've already made the decision to divorce your setting, to some significant degree, from gritty historical realism. Otherwise it's not . . . ummmmmmmmmmmm . . . fantasy.

caw
You have? Says who? Have you READ The Game of Thrones?

Some current fantasy takes gritty realism to a level that most historical fiction never considered.

[Libbie]

Exactly. My story is fantasy, but I'm drawing a picture of the Middle East back then. Boys worked like men, girls married in their teens. I can't have an 18 year old girl going on adventures without people wondering why she isn't already married with kids. When I raised the ages of my characters suddenly everything seemed less authentic and more like a modern carbon copy of the world I was trying to build. Not good.

Exactly. That's why I kept my protagonist young.

I could have gone the route so many modern historical novelists go, and had an eighteen-year-old Egyptian girl in 1500 B.C.E. getting married and confronting sex for the first time. But at eighteen, her life would have been close to half over -- in addition to societal roles forcing kids to grow up faster "back then," life spans were also shorter. And imposing modern ideas about childhood, maturity, sex, etc. on my setting felt inauthentic and somehow insulting to the people who actually lived in those times. Their reality was their reality, and it's not my place to judge it from the 21st century, you know? I don't want to disregard the reality of my characters' world just to make modern readers feel a little less squicky about a woman (by her own cultural standards) getting married, having sex, and worrying about conceiving and being a good mother.

I think you have to stay true to your characters and setting, no matter what.

[Libbie]

You have? Says who? Have you READ The Game of Thrones?

Some current fantasy takes gritty realism to a level that most historical fiction never considered.

True, Game of Thrones is gritty as heck and Martin sure did an admirable job of mirroring medieval Europe. But, uh, ice zombies and dragons. 'Tis still fantasy, no matter how you slice it, and that gives him leeway for departure should he ever need it.

[job]

People didn't go on quests; that's an invention of Robort de Boron writing Arthurian fan fic in the thirteenth century.

People, including teens, went on pilgrimages and crusades and off to the wars..

Oh *g*.
You go girl.

[Maxinquaye]

Henry VIII was King of England at 18.
He was Lord lieutenant of Ireland at 2.

:)

[Slushie]

I'd have huge problems.

People didn't go on quests; that's an invention of Robort de Boron writing Arthurian fan fic in the thirteenth century.

People, including teens, went on pilgrimages and crusades and off to the wars. They also got shipped all over as wedding-fodder and pages as apprentices.

So that's where fan fic came from... He didn't happen to write in second-person present, did he? ;)

All I know about Anahid's work:
Set in 15c Arabia with a young protagonist. It's got lots of characters, story arcs, battles, and it is/was 300K words. Fantasy with a realistic bent.

Maybe I misconstrued his/her story by using the word "quest". Maybe not.

If said tween flies on a magic carpet from Alexandria to the Hindus to find a magic stone that will save his genie from becoming evil (all while taking place in the real world) then I'd be fine with it, regardless of whether or not people did those things back in the day. Unless I'm misunderstanding the definition of the word..?

[job]

But at eighteen, her life would have been close to half over -- in addition to societal roles forcing kids to grow up faster "back then," life spans were also shorter.

Actually ... you have to be careful in thinking about mortality statistics in these terms.

One can say -- "The average age in London in 1620 was ten years old."
And it's true.
What this means is that 3/4 of the population died before they were two. It does not mean that everyone was cut down at age twenty.

In Medieval times, if you managed to live to eighteen and survived the birth of your first child, you were not doomed to die at 35. You had a very good chance indeed of living to 70.

That's why you have stuff in the bible along the lines of

The days of our years are threescore years and ten;
and if by reason of strength they be fourscore years,
yet is their strength labor and sorrow.


Pre-technological folks who managed to live through early childhood could expect lifespans very similar to modern Americans. Childbirth was always a hazard, but people did not expect to die at 35 and life was not organized around this as a reality.

This same pattern of mortality exists in underdeveloped nations even today.

The major difficulty I'd see in a woman of 18 running about without a husband or father is not that someone would necessarily ask why she doesn't have two kids. Menarche might easily hit at fifteen or sixteen and lots of women didn't marry young, for a number of societal reasons.

I'd be asking myself why a Medieval 18-year-old doesn't 'belong' to someone who is keeping her at home for the value of her labor.
People, both men and women, generally did belong to somebody who had the right to tell them what to do

[Maxinquaye]

Pre-technological folks who managed to live through early childhood could expect lifespans very similar to modern Americans. Childbirth was always a hazard, but people did not expect to die at 35 and life was not organized around this as a reality.

IF you were a nobleman/noblewoman with land and resources, yes, but if you were in the 99% of the population that were not, then your life expectancy was 30-40.

You'd simple be worn out by hard physicl labour at that time.

[Libbie]

You're correct about all that, of course, job. In my case, there have been far more Egyptian mummies found whose ages seemed to be around the 35 - 45-year mark than any other lifespan, and these people were dying of stuff like cancer and tooth abscesses. This includes upper and lower classes of society. The guys like Rameses who lived into their nineties were an extreme rarity.

And there is plenty of evidence (as good as any Egyptology evidence can get, which in some cases leaves a lot to the inference of the reader) to suggest that thirteen was a perfectly acceptable age for aristocracy -- especially daughters of the Pharaoh -- to be married off. In my particular milieu, there is an urgency for my MC to be married as soon as possible, for pressing political reasons (which were derived from the known history of this particular queen's ascension to the throne -- or rather, from her husband's ascension).

In any case, with so many Egyptians dying from tooth decay around the age of thirty-five, no matter how good their health insurance, nobody could count on being around to have kids in their thirties. I feel that my research justifies my choice.

But you're right -- particularly with historicals, or fantasies that lean heavily on history, if in doubt (or even if not in doubt), RESEARCH IT!

[Albannach]

Childbirth was always a hazard, but people did not expect to die at 35 and life was not organized around this as a reality.

Childbirth was more than a "hazard". The statistics aren't reliable but at least 25% of all women died in childbirth before modern medical care. Of course, that might not be the first one (although since she'd be young that would be the most dangerous) but the chances a woman would eventually die either in childbirth or of infection afterward were tremendous.

[Use Her Name]

Exactly. That's why I kept my protagonist young.

I could have gone the route so many modern historical novelists go, and had an eighteen-year-old Egyptian girl in 1500 B.C.E. getting married and confronting sex for the first time. But at eighteen, her life would have been close to half over -- in addition to societal roles forcing kids to grow up faster "back then," life spans were also shorter. And imposing modern ideas about childhood, maturity, sex, etc. on my setting felt inauthentic and somehow insulting to the people who actually lived in those times. Their reality was their reality, and it's not my place to judge it from the 21st century, you know? I don't want to disregard the reality of my characters' world just to make modern readers feel a little less squicky about a woman (by her own cultural standards) getting married, having sex, and worrying about conceiving and being a good mother.

I think you have to stay true to your characters and setting, no matter what.

Glad you said that. For the most part people married and so on at a very young age compared to today. More and more our society is getting really victorian. Every time someone calls a 17 or 18 year old a "child" I want to scream.

[blacbird]

True, Game of Thrones is gritty as heck and Martin sure did an admirable job of mirroring medieval Europe. But, uh, ice zombies and dragons. 'Tis still fantasy, no matter how you slice it, and that gives him leeway for departure should he ever need it.

Thank you. That's essentially my point.

caw

[James D. Macdonald]

Admiral Farragut had command of his first ship at age 12. And that was in 19th c. America.

As to YA/Adult, just write the best book you can, and let the publisher figure out where to shelve it.

[Libbie]

Glad you said that. For the most part people married and so on at a very young age compared to today. More and more our society is getting really victorian. Every time someone calls a 17 or 18 year old a "child" I want to scream.

Well, this is a bit of a diversion, but I wouldn't call this aspect of our society "Victorian." (Others aspects, yes.) I believe it's more that we're understanding more and more about brain development and the ability of people at certain ages to consistently make mature decisions.

However, it does drive me nuts when people fail to recognize that young adults (what some might call "children" -- say, sixteen and up) have sexuality. I dislike the way young people's sexuality has become a taboo thing in our culture. Yeah, there are creepy people who would take advantage of young people's famed lack of judgment where sexuality is concerned, but the way we try to brush under the rug the very fact that teens have a very strong biological drive to DO IT makes me crazy.

We're animals. We're biological entities. We're natural. There is nothing wrong or bad or sinister about sexuality, at any age, so long as all parties involved are aware of the consequences and are informed, and making decisions for themselves, not being pressured or manipulated. Arrgh.

Okay, back to your regularly scheduled thread.

[Toothpaste]

As to YA/Adult, just write the best book you can, and let the publisher figure out where to shelve it.

It's a great suggestion, especially for a first draft. But unfortunately, you kind of need to know your genre and age, especially if you are interested in getting an agent. Some agents don't rep children's/YA at all. Some only rep them. An author needs to know who to send her work to.

Plus, having just written a book that is neither YA nor adult apparently, I can tell you that if you leave it to the publisher, they can decide it's too much work to make such a decision and to not publish it in the first place. (and just in case you want to say something re: the quality of the book being the reason for a publisher not wanting to publish it, every rejection I've got has praised the quality of the work highly)

[James D. Macdonald]

If some publisher can't figure out how to publish a given book, keep going until you find a publisher that can.

[Anahid21]

All I know about Anahid's work:
Set in 15c Arabia with a young protagonist. It's got lots of characters, story arcs, battles, and it is/was 300K words. Fantasy with a realistic bent.

Maybe I misconstrued his/her story by using the word "quest". Maybe not.


Depends how you define "quest." To me it's something only your protagonist (with or without his friends) take up, something no one else had dared, or done and failed. My protagonist's mission is closer to a pilgrimage, which exactly fits the setting. It's not a spiritual pilgrimage but something he needs to do to achieve the required credentials for his career. It's hardly a quest since everyone does it. Only he has to do it at 14, with no money, no noble family background, and amidst the typical troubles we throw at our protagonists in our stories.

I must admit (and this is straying from the topic of this thread,) that the issue of what is acceptable in society now versus then bothered me more than once throughout my writing. I once received an email from the freelance editor about a part of my story where underage characters drank wine (and exesively so, which ends up messing their judgment and losing to the antagonist.) I was aiming for a lesson on why underage drinking is bad. My editor changed it to spiked punch because "no publisher would pick up a story that had 14-15 year olds drinking wine." That scene is now among those which would be cut so I'm not going to dwell on it. But it irked me to no end because for one, the lesson was lost after changing wine to punch and also, I read quite a few published stories set in medieval times where a 16 year old bride and her 30 year old husband drank a goblet or two at their wedding.

[Maxinquaye]

In my native country they used to give wet babies mouths with vodka, to quell their hunger, in the middle ages. It also used to have an over 50% alcoholism-level in the entire population, and that was up to the 19th century and the beginning of the 20th. Spirits was good for you. It was not modern thinking then.

[Anahid21]

But, based on what Anahid has said, they want their fantasy to be in a more accurate setting.

That is not exactly the case. I must admit I'm not overly true to the setting either or the females in my story would do nothing but cook, clean, and get bossed around by the males like it was customary in the East in that era.

It's more like what Libbie said; I want to be true to my characters. I want to create a sense of wonder about the achievements of my prince for example. The people in my story must marvel at him leading armies and defending their land at a young age. They would if he were 16, they won't if he is 20 (even if we might, in 2009.)

[James D. Macdonald]

It also used to have an over 50% alcoholism-level in the entire population, and that was up to the 19th century and the beginning of the 20th. Spirits was good for you.

Spirits could be better for you than the water. Dying of cirrhosis at age thirty gives you a chance to reproduce. Dying of cholera at eight doesn't.

[Anahid21]

It's a great suggestion, especially for a first draft. But unfortunately, you kind of need to know your genre and age, especially if you are interested in getting an agent. Some agents don't rep children's/YA at all. Some only rep them. An author needs to know who to send her work to.

Plus, having just written a book that is neither YA nor adult apparently, I can tell you that if you leave it to the publisher, they can decide it's too much work to make such a decision and to not publish it in the first place. (and just in case you want to say something re: the quality of the book being the reason for a publisher not wanting to publish it, every rejection I've got has praised the quality of the work highly)

There's also the fact that it is recommended to state the genre in your query so the agent can immediately make a decision whether they can represent it or not. No matter how good a story is, some agents may not know how to represent it because they haven't worked in that genre, so they pass.

I'm sorry to hear about your dilemma. Can't it be a YA that adults also enjoy?

[job]

IF you were a nobleman/noblewoman with land and resources, yes, but if you were in the 99% of the population that were not, then your life expectancy was 30-40.

You'd simple be worn out by hard physicl labour at that time.

Well ... we do have a good bit of information about the actual ages of death in the Medieval period, so we don't have to speculate so much.

Now, first off, it is probably less useful to talk about 'life expectancy' in general. Because when you do that you are mostly talking about the deaths of little kids, who died off like flies. This skews the average age of death way downward.

But all those baby deaths do not really affect the life expectancy of a strapping 20-year-old. They don't affect how long people thought they would live once they got to be adults.

Anyhow, if we go looking at a lot of estimates over all of Europe, the evidence suggests that a 20-year-old medieval peasant had about a 50/50 chance of living to his mid 40s. That is to say, if you rounded up a bunch of young folks, half of them would live to be older than 45. Half wouldn't.

If you looked at 30-year-olds, they had about a 50/50 chance of making it to age 50.

So for every medieval peasant who keeled over in the furrows at 35 or 40, there was another, lucky, next-door neighbor who was bouncing a grandson on his knee at 60.

And there isn't all that much difference in mortality rates between the gentry and the peasants, actually.

I looked around the internet for a summary of the basic mortality data, cast in straightforward terms. This is Khanaldin's paper on mortality and perception of age in the Medieval period. here (http://www.sirguillaume.com/Downloads/Old_Age-Height-Nutrition.pdf).

Take a look at Table 1, and follow it down to the very interesting figure 1 below.

This figure 1 is an illustration of something that often surprises folks. See how the average age of death for 30-year-olds remains remarkably consistent for the 600-year period between 1200 and 1850.

Kinda makes you rethink those deplorable medieval conditions ...

[Phaeal]

Yeah I was directing that at Linda, hence the quote. Honestly I have no clue how to respond to "add more plot," except to just blink at the screen.

Complicate the existing plot. Add more problems to be overcome before the MC reaches his goal, each new problem thornier than the one before. Think of it as a knot. You want one more Gordian than simple slip.

[Phaeal]

Harry Potter and Twilight are both marketed and shelved as YA but both sell extremely well to adults.

The Borders I frequent shelves all the HP books as MG.* Just mentioning to point out how subjective the distinctions are. I can see the problem: the store really does need to choose either the MG or YA section for the series -- it would be stupid to put Books 1-3 in MG and 4-7 in YA. (And 4 really is kind of either-or.)

Now, in England, where Bloomsbury published HP with two covers, one for the adult market, are the HPs shelved in two sections, children's and adult's?

Meh, I refuse to be ghettoized and wander freely over the whole book landscape. As a child, I snuck into the adult stacks at the library. As an adult I boldly go into MG and YA sections. And I love to see kids breaking the ghetto bonds, too. The other day I was in the History section, where an eight year old girl was reading Cokie Roberts's Founding Mothers and lobbying her mom to buy it for her. Good on Mom for saying yes.


*This Borders also recently moved all the YA books right next to the adult section -- good idea, I think, as I see a lot more customers crossing over from one to the other.

[James D. Macdonald]

Add a new character. By the time he/she is fully integrated into the book, it'll be longer. And, if you've done it right, better.

[Aidan Watson-Morris]

I like the sound of it. To split into three that are dependent on each other just makes your readers want to read more, and although it may annoy the reader, that was how LOTR became so marketable. Well...LOTR was also marketable because it was freaking awesome, but you know what I mean.

[Anahid21]

I like the sound of it. To split into three that are dependent on each other just makes your readers want to read more, and although it may annoy the reader, that was how LOTR became so marketable. Well...LOTR was also marketable because it was freaking awesome, but you know what I mean.

I do. But as a first time writer we have to play by the rules, and how many of us haven't heard the advice, "Do NOT market your series, just the first book. And make sure you tell them it is self contained, or else the publisher won't risk something that cannot sell without guarantying the entire series." Now if I were a famous author with lots of titles under my belt I'm sure things would have been different.

Sadly I don't know what the chances of LOTR were if it were to be published today, great as it is. Different times, harsher conditions.

[IdiotsRUs]

To split into three that are dependent on each other just makes your readers want to read more, and although it may annoy the reader, that was how LOTR became so marketable. Well...LOTR was also marketable because it was freaking awesome, but you know what I mean.

Nothing annoys me more than having a book with no resolution at the end ( or the first book that's just a big prologue for the actual story *facepalm*).

That's just me though.

If you can resolve some parts and leave others open? ( even LOTR did this) Coolio. But yes, mostly we're told market the first as a stand alone with series potential ( though that doesn't stop trilogies by first time writers being sold so....)

Sadly I don't know what the chances of LOTR were if it were to be published today, great as it is. Different times, harsher conditions.

I think the general consensus is - bugger all.

[Cyia]

Sadly I don't know what the chances of LOTR were if it were to be published today, great as it is. Different times, harsher conditions.

Probably the same as if Stephen King wrote a massive... oh, wait....

Tolkein, like King, wasn't a first timer when he wrote LOTR. He had a fanbase.

For a new writer, it's not likely.

[Medievalist]

I like the sound of it. To split into three that are dependent on each other just makes your readers want to read more, and although it may annoy the reader, that was how LOTR became so marketable. Well...LOTR was also marketable because it was freaking awesome, but you know what I mean.

LOTR was split because there was a paper shortage. It wasn't the original intention.

[Anahid21]

Nothing annoys me more than having a book with no resolution at the end ( or the first book that's just a big prologue for the actual story *facepalm*).


My first book in the trilogy ends with the characters failing in their quest and setting out to try an alternative. I can see it having standalone potential but it highly epends on how readers would feel about the MC not wining in the end.