PDA

View Full Version : No Anita Blake TV Series


Saskatoonistan
11-26-2009, 03:48 PM
From LKH's blog (http://blog.laurellkhamilton.org/index.php/site/the_tv_show_on_ifc_is_not_happening/):

The Anita Blake TV show on IFC is not happening. Now no wailing and gnashing of teeth about it. In the two years and some change since I sold the rights to my series its been very educational. I know a great deal more about television, movies, and how this branch of the entertainment business works. It has been frustrating watching other shows in the genre I pioneered go on the air while we didnít, but in the end I believe most things happen for a reason. I would rather have no television show than a bad one.

Kind of disappointing, but oh well. What I found interesting is her comment that she pioneered the genre. Did she? What do you think?

dpaterso
11-26-2009, 05:09 PM
<quick check... yeah> Anita Blake's adventures precede Sookie Stackhouse and Twilight, so I can see as how the author might feel a tad miffed at being overlooked. I've read the Anita Blake comics and liked the story lots and was wowed by the art. Going by that alone, methinks the material might make for a damn good movie or TV series. I might try the novels sometime!

-Derek

Cyia
11-26-2009, 05:52 PM
She preceded Sookie and Bella, but she hardly pioneered the genre. Just sour grapes.

scarletpeaches
11-26-2009, 05:56 PM
She preceded Sookie and Bella, but she hardly pioneered the genre. Just sour grapes.Word.

Exactly what I thought. The woman's so far up herself it's unreal.

Maybe if she spellchecked her blog occasionally and stopped throwing her dollies out of the pram she'd get more respect.

Cyia
11-26-2009, 06:22 PM
I checked on Wikipedia, and it looks like the first Anita Blake book came out in '93.

I was going to give her the benefit of the doubt and assume the series had been around since the 80's, but it's not even 20 years old.

kaitie
11-26-2009, 06:58 PM
<quick check... yeah> Anita Blake's adventures precede Sookie Stackhouse and Twilight, so I can see as how the author might feel a tad miffed at being overlooked. I've read the Anita Blake comics and liked the story lots and was wowed by the art. Going by that alone, methinks the material might make for a damn good movie or TV series. I might try the novels sometime!

-Derek

Stop at book 9. Seriously.

scarletpeaches
11-26-2009, 07:00 PM
If you don't like her books, your all jelouse loosers.

Srsly. What is it with vampire authors going doolally online? Is there something in the air?

Keyan
11-26-2009, 07:15 PM
I think Anne Rice pioneered the sympathetic vampire trope, at least for popular audiences. And I think Buffy predated Anita Blake...

But I think LKH did something pretty special with the tropes and the genre, and I can see why she feels she invented it.

At some point (book 9?) they petered out into dull porn and lost their story-line.

ChaosTitan
11-26-2009, 07:17 PM
Deja vu.

Don't we have a long thread somewhere where we recently hashed out whether or not LKH pioneered anything?

Cyia
11-26-2009, 07:28 PM
I think Anne Rice pioneered the sympathetic vampire trope, at least for popular audiences. And I think Buffy predated Anita Blake...

Uh... no.

St. Germain was in books long before Lestat, and before that, there was Barnabas Collins. Even Dracula has his sympathizers.

Saskatoonistan
11-26-2009, 07:32 PM
Tanya Huff's blood series started in 1991, I think. If there is a thread on this already, I do apologize.

Jamesaritchie
11-26-2009, 08:10 PM
The pioneer doesn't much matter. It's "What have you done lately, and how popular are you right now."

Medievalist
11-26-2009, 09:45 PM
She didn't pioneer anything.

Buffy The Vampire slayer predates her. You notice you don't see Charlaine Harris, or P. N. Elrod (who CLEARLY prdeates LH) making snide remarks about Hamilton?

Yeah.

scarletpeaches
11-26-2009, 09:46 PM
I so want something vampirey published someday then I can go batshit online.

Didja see whut ah did thur? Batshit? Vampires?

Oh I give up.

GregB
11-26-2009, 10:20 PM
Buffy the film (1992) predates Anita Blake (Guilty Pleasures, 1993); Whedon's series didn't air until 1997. I'm not sure why these arguments always have to be all or nothing. It's not like every frontier gets just one pioneer, the first, and all that came after were something else entirely. I think LKH gets some credit for pioneering the kick-ass sexy heroine brand of UF.

M.R.J. Le Blanc
11-26-2009, 10:50 PM
I think she shouldn't really be surprised it never got picked up. I admit I never read the books, but if they eventually started going from plot to porn, do you think a tv station is really going to be interested?

Saskatoonistan
11-26-2009, 10:52 PM
I think she shouldn't really be surprised it never got picked up. I admit I never read the books, but if they eventually started going from plot to porn, do you think a tv station is really going to be interested?

Ouchies.

Kathleen42
11-26-2009, 11:20 PM
Buffy the film (1992) predates Anita Blake (Guilty Pleasures, 1993); Whedon's series didn't air until 1997. I'm not sure why these arguments always have to be all or nothing. It's not like every frontier gets just one pioneer, the first, and all that came after were something else entirely. I think LKH gets some credit for pioneering the kick-ass sexy heroine brand of UF.

Agreed. Whatever the series is now and whatever quirks LKH has I think she played a large role in shaping the UF genre. She could have been a bit more humble in her phrasing, perhaps, but it must be frustrating seeing True Blood on the air and not be able to get AB on TV.

While I do think the shift in tone of the later books might have been somewhat of a stumbling block, the violence in the series as compared to something to the Sookie Stackhouse mysteries might also have been an issue.

Gillhoughly
11-26-2009, 11:37 PM
You want some pioneers of the genre? Here's a few, please forgive me for the many omissions:

1816 - Lord Ruthven appears in Glenarvon by Lady Caroline Lamb.

1819 - The Vampyre by John Polidori, Lord Ruthven appears again. Ruthven enjoyed the same popularity then as Dracula does now. If a guy named Ruthven turned up in a play or book, the audience knew vampiric high jinks would ensue.

1845-47 Varney The Vampire James Malcolm Rhymer or Thomas Preskett Prest--maybe both! A sympathetic vampire. He didn't like being e-vul, but still chowed down.

1897- Dracula by Bram Stoker. 'Nuff said.

1966 - The TV series Dark Shadows, which introduced Barnabas Collins, the first sympathetic vampire since Varney.

1972 - The Nightstalker First TV movie to garner a 54% share of the ratings, the highest known at that time. First to deal with a "serial" killer before agent Robert K. Ressler coined the term in the FBI's still-new Behavioral Sciences Unit, anticipated CSI shows with an unforgettable autopsy scene.

Introduced the world to Carl Kolchak (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Kolchak), hero to urban fantasy & vampire fans, a wonderfully corrupting influence on writers everywhere.

Followed up by The Night Strangler and Kolchak: The Nightstalker TV series.

Not bad for being based on an unpublished book (http://www.moonstonebooks.com/kolchak.asp) by Jeff Rice.

1975 - The Dracula Tape by Fred Saberhagen is released. Nine more books follow.

1976 - Interview With the Vampire by Ann Rice is released.

1978 - Hotel Transylvania by Chelsea Quinn Yarbro is released. LOTS of books to folllow!

1987 - Bloodhunt by Lee Killough with vampire cop Garreth Mikaelian is released. Tor books was clueless about how to market it and gave it a terrible cover.

1989 - Burning Water by Mercedes Lackey introduces witch Diana Tregarde, two more books to follow.

1989 - Forever Knight pilot with Rick Springfield as vampire cop Nick Knight

1990 - The Vampire Files: Bloodlist by P.N. Elrod introduces Jack Fleming, vampire PI, hits the racks, eleven books follow.

1991 - Blood Price by Tanya Huff introduces vampire Henry Fitzroy is released, 5 books to follow.

1991 - The Vampire Diaries by L.J. Smith is released. in 2009 a TV series, same name airs.

1992- 1996 - Forever Knight Canadian pilot with Shakespearian actors Geraint Wyn Davies and Nigel Bennett airs and catches on.

1992- Buffy the Vampire Slayer movie

1993 - Jonathan Barrett, Gentleman Vampire: Red Death by P.N Elrod is released, three more books follow.

1993 - Guilty Pleasures by LKH is released.

1997-2003 Buffy the Vampire Slayer TV series

1999-2004 Angel (spinoff TV series from Buffy)

2001 - Dead Until Dark by Charlaine Harris wins Anthony Award for Best Paperback Mystery in 2001.

2004 - Ann Rice puts on a crazy hat and rants against the fans (http://www.tribalwar.com/forums/archive/t-326444.html) who made her wealthy. Not terribly clever of her.

2005-2009 - Twilight is released, becomes wildly popular with teen females. Hollywood, sensing ready cash, makes movies and T-shirts to sell to them.

2006 - LKH puts on Ann Rice's crazy hat and rants against the fans (http://www.journalfen.net/community/fandom_wank/1041659.html) who pay her bills. Hardly pioneering or professional.

2007 - Moonlight, about a vampire PI, airs on CBS.

2008 - Blood Ties, based on Tanya Huff's series airs.

2008 - True Blood, TV series airs on HBO

2008 - Being Human, TV series airs in the UK

2009 - LKH claims to have "pioneered the genre".

2009 - Other writers on AW question that claim. Quite a lot!


Draw your own conclusions about there not being any sour grapes, ladies and gentlemen. :evil


Entry updated to include a few I forgot!

Saskatoonistan
11-26-2009, 11:44 PM
Draw your own conclusions about there not being any sour grapes, ladies and gentlemen. :evil


The Gorn salutes you for your encyclopedic knowledge of urban fantasy history.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_peGbBMqGJ98/StNHalsjsLI/AAAAAAAABAs/cDXSZOpVA30/s400/StarTrek-Gorn.jpg

GregB
11-27-2009, 12:17 AM
Draw your own conclusions about there not being any sour grapes, ladies and gentlemen. :evil

Does LKH claim to be a pioneer of vampire fiction? That would be...silly...by any definition of "pioneer." I thought she was claiming to a pioneer of the modern UF genre. If not, I retract my comments!

Shadow_Ferret
11-27-2009, 12:48 AM
Wow. You guys are rough.

Personally, I think she should be happy. TV has fucked up every urban fantasy they've touched.

Gillhoughly
11-27-2009, 01:15 AM
Does LKH claim to be a pioneer of vampire fiction? That would be...silly...by any definition of "pioneer." I thought she was claiming to a pioneer of the modern UF genre. If not, I retract my comments!

The first recognized example of UF is The Borribles series by Michael de Larrabeiti, 1976-1986.

The term came into being around 1987.

Emma Bull's War of the Oaks, 1987, was set in modern Minneapolis.

Hamilton's first book appeared in 1993, a good 6 years later. If that makes her a "pioneer" of Urban Fantasy, yeah, I guess that's technically true, but that self-declaration is a bit hard to get past.

Someone else calling her a pioneer in either or both genre is fair enough. For LKH to declare herself to be a pioneer smacks of an ego the size of Anita Blake's sex partner list.

I covered this from the vampire angle, because she's best known for writing about them, which is a sub-genre unto itself.

However, if one wants to get REALLY technical, UF books that pre-date her, like The Vampyre, Dracula, The Dracula Tape, Bloodhunt, and the TV series Dark Shadows, were all in contemporary urban settings for their time. You couldn't take a short stroll in Collinsport, Maine without encountering a vampire, werewolf, ghost, Cthulu follower, witch, or Frankenstein doppleganger!

Wonder what that sort of thing does to property values?

.

Haunted_October
11-27-2009, 01:33 AM
And don't forget Mercedes Lackey's Diana Tregarde series that started in 1989.

LKH is saying, according to her Twitter, that she pioneered the "Paranormal Thriller'. And now, pretty much, she's claiming she's responsible for everything from the Buffy TV series to Stephanie Meyers Twilight being published.

I give her props for her early books, but there were many before her, and I didn't hear about her until 1999. Anita is a hell of lot like Lackey's Diana- and both characters have a vampire who calls them Ma Petite. Go figure.

But her attitude is atrocious. She literally has stated that her work is too edgy for most people and if you don't like her work it's because you're a prude.

Yeah. She's great...

Medievalist
11-27-2009, 01:37 AM
I think Suzy McKee Charnas' The Vampire Tapestry (http://www.suzymckeecharnas.com/biblio_tapestry.html) needs to be included, too. Smart re-think about vamps. The novel is Simon & Schuster July 1980, but there was a novella a couple of years earlier, I think.

Saskatoonistan
11-27-2009, 01:42 AM
Selected quotes from the "pioneer" posting (http://blog.laurellkhamilton.org/index.php/site/the_tv_show_on_ifc_is_not_happening/):

"I donít think most people realize how rare it is to have a series that is this long running where the audience grows larger with every book. Iíve done that without a TV show, or a movie"

"I was the first one to bring them out of the broom closet, or coffin, whatever, and throw them into modern medicine, law enforcement, politics, and society in general. Most writers take the mundane and make it fantastic, I like to take the fantastic and make it mundane."

"Tomorrow I will get up and I will continue to write Bullet, book 18 in the Anita Blake: Vampire Hunter series. I will get to finish choreographing a scene with Anita, Asher, and Jean-Claude the likes of which I have never attempted before. The thought makes me both giddy with happiness and full of intense performance anxiety."

I don't begrudge her success one tiny bit because if I wind up successful, I am getting a pimp hat and a pimp-mobile with leopard skin seat covers... but COME ON!!!

Medievalist
11-27-2009, 01:44 AM
On the term Urban Fantasy--It seems to have been coined by Terri Windling in the phrase "contemporary urban fantasy" in reference to Moonheart.

I note Windling's Borderlands is 1986.

I further note to to a medieval audience, works like Sir Orfeo and Sir Gawain and the Green Knight would be "urban fantasy."

Cyia
11-27-2009, 01:47 AM
Bunnicula feels left out :(. He was both a vampire bunny and contemporary to his time. So there. :tongue

Gillhoughly
11-27-2009, 02:11 AM
And if anyone gave Meyer her start, it would be L.J. Smith's Vampire Diaries, 1991. It's painfully obvious that Meyer read them while in college, then mangled them into her sparkly decaff version.

I don’t think most people realize how rare it is to have a series that is this long running where the audience grows larger with every book. I’ve done that without a TV show, or a movie

Um, so did Fred Saberhagen and several thousand *other* writers in every genre, including writers who were around before the invention of movies and TV.

"I was the first one to bring them out of the broom closet, or coffin, whatever, and throw them into modern medicine, law enforcement, politics, and society in general. Most writers take the mundane and make it fantastic, I like to take the fantastic and make it mundane."

That will be news to Lee Killough with her vampire cop, Garreth. He didn't have a coffin and continued to be a cop after his conversion.

Ditto for P.N. Elrod, whose vamp PI owns a business but no coffin because he "wouldn't be caught dead in one". (I forget which book.)

One might make note that Elrod donated a cover quote to LKH's first book. Publishers generally ask established writers for those to help out the new kids on the block.

Nick Knight worked as a cop, doctor, archeologist, scientist, etc. Nick had a regular bed--with sexy black satin sheets! Way better than that silly deep freeze they gave that third rate imitation Mick on Moonlight.

Fond as LKH is of revisionist history, the Internet is available for the rest of us to amuse ourselves with a bit of myth-busting at her expense.

Sorry LKH fans, but she's just making it too easy to take potshots.

I'm happy she's giddy about writing a threesome with herself Anita and two of her supernatural doormats, but it's not something I'll ever read. :scared:

.

Saskatoonistan
11-27-2009, 02:14 AM
I'm happy she's giddy about a threesome with herself Anita and two of her supernatural doormats, but it's not something I'll ever read. :scared:
:roll:

-sniff-

:roll:

Shadow_Ferret
11-27-2009, 02:33 AM
You know, honestly, I had no clue urban fantasy existed until I read LKH. I don't think its revisionist history so much as urban fantasy, for whatever reason, became popular while she was writing. Not saying BECAUSE of her, but I can see how she might draw that conclusion.

Gillhoughly
11-27-2009, 02:42 AM
I'm waiting for her to announce that she invented sex.

Single-handedly.

:evil

Saskatoonistan
11-27-2009, 02:45 AM
:cry: I'm dyin here... :ROFL:

CheshireCat
11-27-2009, 03:04 AM
:popcorn:

scarletpeaches
11-27-2009, 03:06 AM
Wow. You guys are rough.

Personally, I think she should be happy. TV has fucked up every urban fantasy they've touched.Oh no, Fuzzface. LKH did that herself, to her own series.

A few books in, she buttfucked it herself, without lube.

Medievalist
11-27-2009, 03:20 AM
You know, honestly, I had no clue urban fantasy existed until I read LKH. I don't think its revisionist history so much as urban fantasy, for whatever reason, became popular while she was writing. Not saying BECAUSE of her, but I can see how she might draw that conclusion.

Then she's a twit.

Seriously. It is absolutely revisionist history; as is her claim to have invented "erotic faery"

Kathleen42
11-27-2009, 05:17 AM
On the term Urban Fantasy--It seems to have been coined by Terri Windling in the phrase "contemporary urban fantasy" in reference to Moonheart.

I note Windling's Borderlands is 1986.

I further note to to a medieval audience, works like Sir Orfeo and Sir Gawain and the Green Knight would be "urban fantasy."

I've heard that it originated with De Lint as well which completely makes sense. The first time I used the phrase was when trying to explain Newford to someone.

Medievalist
11-27-2009, 06:17 AM
I've heard that it originated with De Lint as well which completely makes sense. The first time I used the phrase was when trying to explain Newford to someone.

I'd argue that the genre was ancient, but that the phrase originated with Terri Windling referring to De Lint's Moonheart.

Kathleen42
11-27-2009, 07:24 AM
I'd argue that the genre was ancient, but that the phrase originated with Terri Windling referring to De Lint's Moonheart.

Sorry. Yes, to clarify, I meant the phrase, not the genre.

aadams73
11-27-2009, 07:57 AM
Then she's a twit.

Seriously. It is absolutely revisionist history; as is her claim to have invented "erotic faery"

The words "batshit crazy" spring to mind whenever I think of LKH.

I always think of those hilariously deranged pictures she posted on her myspace page some time back, with all her "friends" dressed up like they(and she) were badass.

scarletpeaches
11-27-2009, 08:02 AM
aadams73's avatar made me lose control of my bowels laughing.

A bit like LKH's blog, but...with less fail.

Medievalist
11-27-2009, 08:06 AM
The words "batshit crazy" spring to mind whenever I think of LKH.

I always think of those hilariously deranged pictures she posted on her myspace page some time back, with all her "friends" dressed up like they(and she) were badass.

I can only imagine. I think I'd rather not know.

scarletpeaches
11-27-2009, 08:12 AM
I'm trying hard not to contribute to turning this into an author-bashing thread. Honest.

But there's something I have a problem with. I just do not understand.

Okay. On the LKH forums it says you're not to make personal comments or speculations about LKH's private/home/sex life. Which is cool. 'Cause you join a fan forum to discuss the works, not the person.

And yet. One part of her forum is dedicated to the discussion of each of her blog posts.

Again, fine.

But.

In her (misspelt) blog, she regularly discusses her private/home/sex life.

Um...do you understand my confusion?

HelloKiddo
11-27-2009, 08:22 AM
The words "batshit crazy" spring to mind whenever I think of LKH.

I always think of those hilariously deranged pictures she posted on her myspace page some time back, with all her "friends" dressed up like they(and she) were badass.

Aaaaand now I want to see those photos. Any chance anybody here knows where they can be found?

I love reading those LKH/Anne Rice rants. I've read both a few times and they still make me smile.

Medievalist
11-27-2009, 08:27 AM
Because I'm full of really good turkey and zin:

http://dearauthor.com/wordpress/2007/05/15/nyt-bestelling-author-laurell-k-hamilton-has-officially-lost-her-mind/

scarletpeaches
11-27-2009, 08:28 AM
If Medi ever starts a fan club, I'm joining.

HelloKiddo
11-27-2009, 08:36 AM
Because I'm full of really good turkey and zin:

http://dearauthor.com/wordpress/2007/05/15/nyt-bestelling-author-laurell-k-hamilton-has-officially-lost-her-mind/

I'm not sure what to make of those. Clearly nutty, but not more than she usually is. Thanks for the link.

If Medi ever starts a fan club, I'm joining.

A fan club for Medi or a fan club for LKH?

scarletpeaches
11-27-2009, 08:40 AM
Don't make me cut you, bitch.

(Just to clarify: I meant Medi).

HelloKiddo
11-27-2009, 08:47 AM
Don't make me cut you, bitch.

No need to threaten anybody with gratuitous cutting. I think I got cut enough after we went at it over Jane Eyre (I'm still healing...)

(Just to clarify: I meant Medi).

I'd join that club too. Although starting her own fan club would be a very LKH thing to do.

Medievalist
11-27-2009, 08:49 AM
Awwwww . . . but I refuse to join any club that would have me as a member.

Just ask Buster; she had to shanghai me. And I still mostly escaped. Mostly.

scarletpeaches
11-27-2009, 08:50 AM
I'd papercut everyone who posted in this thread with my Penguin Classics 99p copy of Jane Eyre, but it's bedtime, so BAI! :D

djf881
11-27-2009, 09:51 AM
Based on Wikipedia, every book uses a deus ex machina as the climax, which disgusts me even more than the fact that these books appear to be comprised primarily of werewolf pornography.

But, then again, her entire series seems to be hovering in the top 10k sellers in Amazon, which is fantastic for books that are 20 years old. She outsells pretty much everything I like.

So she probably wins the argument.

Medievalist
11-27-2009, 09:58 AM
Based on Wikipedia, every book uses a deus ex machina as the climax, which disgusts me even more than the fact that these books appear to be comprised primarily of werewolf pornography.

OY!

You're engaging in scatosyntheton.

Read the book(s)--wikipedia is not exactly reliable.

If you're curious, you can right now download the first book in the Merry Gentry series for free, legally here (http://www.suvudu.com/freelibrary/). It's called A Kiss Of Shadows, and it actually had some promise in terms of deal with fey as fey.

And clearly, many folk like the books lots.

Gillhoughly
11-28-2009, 09:44 AM
Hand to my heart, I did NOT go looking for this.

I was clearing out my writing room and buried in a pile of Booklovers was an April 2008 Writer's Digest that had a LKH interview. I never buy WD, but it had articles on genre fiction that required closer study, and there she was on the cover.

Here's something hilariously germane to this thread:

Q: You've said you'd love to see Anita Blake in a movie, but you're worried about the prospect of selling the film rights. Have you sold the film rights?

LKH: No. I've reached that magic point where they can't wave enough money at me to make it worthwhile to hand my baby over. I've been approached over the years, and a lot of times people help me say no by the initial conversation. You go to these movies that were based on a book and you just can't imagine how they got from point A to point B. But having said that, the more I look at the process, it's a very difficult thing to take a book and make it into a movie, because a movie script is the size of a novella. Most modern American novels are five times that. How do you cut it down and have it still make sense? It's an art form in itself.


Apparently she changed her mind about handing over her "baby," because one year later her publicist announces on the LKH Amazon page that there would be a TV series. Fans weep with anticipation and make up ideal cast lists where Jensen Ackles would be awesome.

The anouncement was made on April 1st 2009. :Huh:

Nah. It couldn't have been a jo--nahhhh.

Meh, joke or not, that didn't work out and she's not even a little disappointed. And she shouldn't be! UF pioneers don't give in to that kind of thing.


It must be wonderful to be in that "magic point" of not caring how much money they wave for your TV/movie rights, but I suppose sometime between one April and the next she changed her mind.

I've yet to get to that magic point, but then when it comes to MY work and Hollywood I've always been more than willing to sign a movie or TV deal.

I take it as a given that they'd screw things up, but pay me money, and I won't care. Good or bad, I would have C-A-S-H and my book sales will go through the roof.

In fact, I told my agent out there, "Dude, I've been waiting my whole life to sell out to Hollywood!"

He replied, "Hey, it's not selling out. It's cashing in."

Maybe I should play harder-to-get.


As for turning a big fat book into a film script, Peter Jackson managed to do it rather well with the Lord of the Rings.

And I thought the script for Jaws was miles better than the potboiler Benchley book. But then I got Peter Benchley mixed up with humorist Robert Benchley, so that may be why I didn't like the book.

As for the AB books, for the latter ones just cut the sex scenes and there might be 5 minutes of actual plot a skilled script writer can pad to 40 minutes of TV time--or 90 minutes feature film time.

Explosions. Car chases and explosions. Those always work. :D

Medievalist
11-28-2009, 10:10 AM
Apparently she changed her mind about handing over her "baby," because one year later her publicist announces on the LKH Amazon page that there would be a TV series.

I get that books = babies to writers; heck etymologically "plagiarism" is "kidnapper."

But selling the story to a production company doesn't go back in time and change the book!

geardrops
11-28-2009, 10:22 AM
In reply to Shadow Ferret and anybody else who thinks that TV/movies ruins books...

Yeah, true. But they're extended commercials for your work. Without fail, they sell books. By the truckloads.

Gillhoughly
11-28-2009, 10:56 AM
Absolutely yes, dempsey!

When Blatty's The Exorcist hit big as a bestseller, then a film, the bookstores were FLOODED with black cover horror titles. I was pretty young, but it made an impression. A film deal = money, sales, and more money.

When a movie is made based on an Agatha Christie book, however much the purists groaned, the mystery racks displayed shiny fresh editions of her old titles.

This year alone, with the Twi-films out, writers who have YA vamp titles are reaping huge sales. When the readers run out of Meyer's books they look for others.

On another board LKH is often recommended to them, but strangely, the fans recommending them are firm about "don't bother reading past book six." Or "The first six are good, don't bother with the rest."

So is it in book seven that Anita's crotch took over the keyboard?

Medievalist
11-28-2009, 11:11 AM
So is it in book seven that Anita's crotch took over the keyboard?

I was reviewing them for a site right up to book ten; I was bribed with chocolate after book six.

They turned into a series of vignettes at around book 8. By Book 11 (Incubus Dreams), I wrote this--and I was not writing about an ARC or galley; this was the hardcover:

This was an extremely difficult book to read. It might be a good book, but it's too annoying to read and enjoy in its raw state; the clumsy editing is enough to violate the tacit trust a reader needs to have in an author. There's an editing error on almost every single page, and that's a problem with the publisher, not the writer.

Now, I've noticed that Hamilton's books are poorly copy edited in general. I expect things like "alright" for "all right," and "midmorning" for "mid morning," but in this book we have, more than once, diety for deity, ardeur spelled in a number of interesting ways, Damian as Domain, and Damain, sauve for suave, put for but (a dyslexic marker, which makes me wonder), libility for liability, particliar for particular, hoptial for hospital, retch and wretch are confused (and, like discreet and discrete, not for the first time in one of Hamilton's books), and a cornucopia of continuity errors, and contradictions of facts presented in previous books.

The grammar is, well . . . let's just say I'm used to reading the work of under prepared freshmen, and even they aren't this bad. Even the grammar and style checker in Microsoft Word will catch its/it's and you're/your, and would of/would have errors. Was there an editor involved? I'm talking about comma splices, and not just in dialogue, commas sprinkled as if they were a seasoning, apostrophes in plurals, and not in possessives, sentence fragments, and Hamilton's long-term problems with irregular verbs, especially lay and lie. We'll skip the creative use of French and German.

Incubus Dreams desperately needs a decent line editor--Hamilton's developed a number of repetitive nervous twitches in her writing, including repeating descriptions verbatim (not only from previous books, but repeating them in this book) like frequently repeating that only new vampires flash fang. Limit this kind of reference to once per book--that way, you clue in new readers, but you don't annoy them. I'd guess that at least 25% of this book could, and should, have been cut. A good editor could have really made something interesting out of Incubus Dreams. Right now, it's a mess.

If I hadn't seen this kind of sloppy editing and writing in previous books, I'd blame overly rapid typesetting and a rush to market, but this is just too awful to find any excuse for it, even that one. And I can't even hope that the errors will be corrected in the paperback, based on previous books.

I won't be reading any more.

kaitie
11-28-2009, 11:37 AM
And you didn't even touch on the plot and character issues. ;)

It isn't quite right to say they turned porn at book six. She started to introduce some of the elements at that point, but for the most part they weren't that bad and the plot still focused on other issues. Obsidian Butterfly was pretty good in its own right, mostly for the focus on Edward, who was always one of the more interesting characters in the books.

There is a drastic change in book 10 however, that I can't begin to explain. The number of issues that start becoming huge, glaring problems in that book would blow your mind. I seriously couldn't believe the same person had written it. Honest.

I was actually looking forward to a series in a way, because I hoped they'd be able to take the early Anita and basically retell the story such that the later issues never came into play. So in that sense, this is a little disappointing.

Medievalist
11-28-2009, 11:54 AM
And you didn't even touch on the plot and character issues. ;).

Honestly, I felt like I was reading a rough draft; the problems with the text were so huge that I couldn't see the plot--and the story wasn't strong enough to get me to move past the barbarities of the text.

I think she's got talent. I think her publisher has not done well by her, nor has success been kind to her.

kaitie
11-28-2009, 04:43 PM
I've wondered before if she simply had too much going on at once. I remember reading about the time that her books went way south (haha, pun!) that she had just had a baby after a rough pregnancy and that it was the first thing she'd written without her writer's group. I don't remember where I saw that so it might not have been reliable. The thing is...I'd give her the benefit of the doubt if it wasn't for messages she leaves like this. I want to believe that she's just being stretched too far and has no idea what she's doing anymore, but it's hard sometimes when reading the statements she makes.

Cyia
11-28-2009, 05:43 PM
Apparently she changed her mind about handing over her "baby," because one year later her publicist announces on the LKH Amazon page that there would be a TV series.

My guess is that Twilight blew her illusion of market supremacy. If she had really deluded herself into thinking that her books were the end all - be all of vampire fiction, seeing Edward on a Doritos bag must have been a world changer. (April sounds about right for when the merchandise aisle hit Wal-Mart, complete with an endless loop of the DVD extras.)

She may have been wondering why no one was clamoring for team vampire vs. team werewolf with her book, and ignoring that in her universe they, um, play together regularly.

And as far as fans making dream casts, from hard core vamp people I know, The Black Dagger Brotherhood is higher on their list of "want to see" than Anita.

Saskatoonistan
11-28-2009, 06:23 PM
My guess is that Twilight blew her illusion of market supremacy. If she had really deluded herself into thinking that her books were the end all - be all of vampire fiction, seeing Edward on a Doritos bag must have been a world changer.

Who has more money anyway-LKH or Meyer? (I'm not throwing J.K. Rowling into the equation because I suspect she has more money than the Vatican.)

Also... I would just kill to read a darned scary vampire novel, you know? No orgies or anything - something creepy like Salem's Lot.

Kathleen42
11-28-2009, 06:25 PM
Who has more money anyway-LKH or Meyer? (I'm not throwing J.K. Rowling into the equation because I suspect she has more money than the Vatican.)

I think it's safe to say that both have more money than I'll ever make ;)

Cyia
11-28-2009, 06:27 PM
Even if they're on par, it took LKH 18 books to do what Smeyer did in 4.

Saskatoonistan
11-28-2009, 06:34 PM
Even if they're on par, it took LKH 18 books to do what Smeyer did in 4.


True. Who knows? Maybe LKH will start writing YA stuff.

Cyia
11-28-2009, 06:38 PM
True. Who knows? Maybe LKH will start writing YA stuff.

Now you've got images of bad Edward/Bella/Jake fanfic burned into the back of my retinas. :cry:

:flag:

kaitie
11-28-2009, 06:39 PM
Do her books still actually sell well? I mean obviously she's still a bestseller, but is this the kind of best seller where she used to sell a million and now she sells 500k? I guess it's probably impossible to know that sort of thing, but I've wondered often. I read the reviews on Amazon, and the consensus seems to lean so heavily in the category of, "I'm never reading another one" that it's almost hard to believe that they're selling better now than they once were. Particularly with things like Twilight and True Blood on the market.

Cyia
11-28-2009, 06:45 PM
Google-fu yields:

There are now more than 6 million copies of Anita in print worldwide ...

So, if that's all the books together, it's nothing compared to Twilight.

Saskatoonistan
11-28-2009, 06:58 PM
I read the reviews on Amazon, and the consensus seems to lean so heavily in the category of, "I'm never reading another one" that it's almost hard to believe that they're selling better now than they once were.


Well there's always the "it's like watching a train wreck - I have to read the next one to see if Anita peddles her ass on third avenue or opens a swingers club or something" market.

kaitie
11-28-2009, 07:31 PM
There are probably also people who want to read just in case they finally got better again, but really, how many times would you need to get burned to figure out it's time to quit?

scarletpeaches
11-28-2009, 07:34 PM
Any time I get the urge to buy an AB book to feel superior I just read LKH's blog, count the typos and that gives me my 'smug fix'.

Cyia
11-28-2009, 07:34 PM
Well there's always the "it's like watching a train wreck - I have to read the next one to see if Anita peddles her ass on third avenue or opens a swingers club or something" market.

I think once the pedophilia storyline was publicized after Skin Trade hit the shelves, the train was officially wrecked.

I haven't read it, but apparently, Anita has an encounter with an underaged (teenage, but still not legal) boy... but it's "not her fault" because she's "forced" to do it or die.

This was one of those "If you don't like it, you're a prude" moments on her blog.

scarletpeaches
11-28-2009, 07:37 PM
What age are we talking, though?

I've noticed Americans seem to be all ":eek:" about supposedly-underage sex but here, for instance, the age of consent is 16, so 'sex with a teen' is not, not, not paedophilia.

It amazes me that crossing the Atlantic and doing the same thing over there would make one a criminal for something that doesn't raise an eyebrow back home.

Saskatoonistan
11-28-2009, 07:38 PM
I think once the pedophilia storyline was publicized after Skin Trade hit the shelves, the train was officially wrecked.

I haven't read it, but apparently, Anita has an encounter with an underaged (teenage, but still not legal) boy... but it's "not her fault" because she's "forced" to do it or die.

This was one of those "If you don't like it, you're a prude" moments on her blog.


So does Anita actually kill vampires anymore or just screw pretty much everything that moves?

Cyia
11-28-2009, 07:40 PM
It depends. Universal age of consent in the US is 17. In some states, so long as there's no more than 3-4 years between the involved couple, they can be 15 or so (to protect high school kids close in age from an angry parent having the oldest one arrested). So a 15 and her 18 year old boyfriend would be legal, but a 15 year old and a 26 year old would not.

The storyline in question (again, 2nd hand info) revolves around a vamp-pedophile who turns children. I would assume "children" means under 15.

ETA - it's not such people freaking out over underage sex, it's more 17 yearold guy caught by 16 3/4 year old girl's dad in her bed, so dad calls the cops and uses "statutory" rape laws meant to protect kids from pedophiles to get the boyfriend tossed in jail.

Shadow_Ferret
11-28-2009, 07:53 PM
Just soes everyone knows, I invented sword and sorcery.

Gillhoughly
11-28-2009, 11:31 PM
Not before my coffee, Shadow_Ferret!!! :roll:


That was a great point raised about Twilight galvanizing a change in heart for selling her "baby". The sight of anything Twilight on half the stock in Walmart drove me away for weeks. I never thought I'd long for the sight of Hanna Montana or the Jonas Brothers on lunchboxes and sweaters again.

Money wise, Meyer has tons more cash than LKH. This was before any movie deal, too.

The sex with under-aged teen thing, well, EW.

Yeah, sure, Anita has-to-do-this-or-die excuse, but let's remember that the writer is the one who set up the situation in the first place. It was no unavoidable accident the scene was in that story, so the fault is with LKH. Clearly she wanted to write such a scene.

Unless LKH really is taking dictation from Anita's crotch.

Ew. Again.

So does Anita actually kill vampires anymore or just screw pretty much everything that moves?
Even if it doesn't move, she can raise the dead, so all she has to do is get to a cemetery to dig up a date. It's like ten minutes before closing time at a bar. If you're desperate enough, you won't go home (or out back behind a Dumpster) alone! (No, I never did that, but I once had a sad and desperate roomie who did.)



I've heard from other quarters about the shoddy editing in LKH titles and have to step in on that one. What you may be getting is the writer--now that she's reached that "magic point"--ignoring all editorial changes, even when they're the right thing to do.

The flaws named in the review are the same ones I see in the blog.

If her books are still with Ace, then she and I may share editors, and I can state that their copy-editors--the ones I've had--are *excellent* and know their craft. I am very contentious about my writing, but when it's clear they're right and I'm wrong I don't make a fuss.

However, if a writer gets "clout" --usually from great sales--and rubber stamps STET over all changes or turns the MS in late so there's no time to argue the diff between plural and possessive, then yes, you're going to see a sloppy final product. I've dealt with a few word-divas and they are NOT fun.

I've had the discreet/discrete issue myself! I've always used discreet, but my MS Word changed it to discrete. For a time I thought the spelling had simply changed or that I was using the UK version (like color vs colour).

discreet - judicious in one's conduct or speech, esp. with regard to respecting privacy or maintaining silence about something of a delicate nature; prudent;

discrete - apart or detached from others; separate; distinct discrete parts. 2. consisting of or characterized by distinct or individual parts; discontinuous (usually used in math)A friend let me know that Word favors the math definition, so I usually do a global search to make sure it's not been "fixed."

I'm not cutting the publisher or writer any slack on sloppy CE work, though. It is the writer's responsibility to turn in as clean a MS as possible so the editor has less work to do. The less work she has, the better she likes it!

My editors LOVE me.

When your MS is clean, then the real errors tend to be easier to spot.

Continuity errors rest with the writer. Editors cannot be expected to recall some detail that happened five books back, one book back or in the same book. Make notes of your characters' hair and coloring and if they were shot or staked, and keep track of it. Your editor doesn't have the time.

I do forget things. Happily, I've got a friend with an encyclopedia brain who's read my books multiple times. When I need to locate a detail or a name, she pops out with it!

I've complained here before about a sloppy NYT bestseller I had to edit. I spent 11 hours on her 50-page story, correcting spelling goofs, high-lighting countless word reps, pointing out impossibilities, and coming to see that this person wouldn't make it out alive from one of my Writing 101 workshops.

All for nothing. Her raw, uncorrected work went straight into the final book. She'd completely discarded even necessary corrections like spelling, punctuation, and obvious typos. Her name = sales, so the other editor let it pass.

Of course I was PO'd. My name was on that book as the editor, so it reflected badly on me, making me look bad at my job. Since then she's been on my personal black list of writers I won't work with again; they're not worth the annoyance.

I equate a sloppily put-together product with contempt for one's readers.

THAT is a no-no for any writer.

If you don't respect your audience, sooner or later they will catch on.

They don't HAVE to buy your book. Really, they don't.

I suppose if Meyer put on a crazy hat and blogged an insane rant against her readers she wouldn't be hurt by it. Certainly Rice and LKH got away with it.

If that's another "magic point," then I'm happy to skip it!

Regarding a turning point on the series, I can speak for a pal of mine who interviewed LKH for her online magazine (http://www.crescentblues.com/3_3issue/hamilton.shtml). The year was 2000 and she was still calling the genre she "pioneered" dark fantasy.

My pal was a huge fan of the series, but found the newest book unreadable. She turned reviewing over to another and hid behind the couch. She hated the book, but didn't think it right to interview the writer then trash the book LKH wanted to pimp.

I love integrity. It's sooooo rare.



Here's something FUN to do with LKH books: get together with pals and read the sex scenes aloud, like this bunch:

http://crevette.livejournal.com/192806.html

Make sure no kids are at the next table. :evil


.

scarletpeaches
11-28-2009, 11:40 PM
I suppose if Meyer put on a crazy hat and blogged an insane rant against her readers she wouldn't be hurt by it. Certainly Rice and LKH got away with it.She did, kinda, with the whole Midnight Sun debacle.

I believe she was shielded from much of what was said about Barfing Dawn with her brother running interference for her, but when MS was leaked...oooh-eee...:rolleyes:

Cyia
11-29-2009, 12:19 AM
What's STET?

Gillhoughly
11-29-2009, 12:30 AM
but when MS was leaked...oooh-eee...:rolleyes:

Which was not only stupid of her, but probably in violation of her contract.

Publishers are very specific about being the FIRST with any manuscript. Writers are not supposed to "leak" their books. Posting try-before-you-buy preview chapters with a link to a seller after the book is released is one thing, but Meyer BLEW it.

Sure, it was about half a book, but enough to land her in civil court for, well, being stupid. I'm sure even her pit bull brother couldn't run interference between Meyer and the Suits at Little Brown for that gaff.

It was a rookie mistake to let her ego get between her and her responsibility toward a publisher who paid a truck load of serious gelt for that book.

Some uncritical fans boosted her ego, she felt all warm and fuzzy toward a select few, and instead of autographed bookmarks or a box of candy, Meyer took it a step too far and shared the damn book.

At least one of those select and trusted few just HAD to share with someone else, and before you know it, the book's being passed around the Net like mono at a high school dance.

I share my books prior to sending the finals to my editor--but only ever with a couple writer pals whose job is to tell me what's wrong with my words. They're pros, too, and I *can* trust them!

Meyer wasn't looking for feedback, but trying to score praise.

However, it couldn't have happened to a more deserving title. Why the hell anyone would want to inflict the same story with a different viewpoint character on the world I do NOT know. What's the point?

Oh. Cash. She doesn't have to plot out a whole new book. Less work, more cash and anyway, those Twi-hards can't get enough of the brand, they'll thank me for it!

What was I thinking? The bottom line is always money. I know that. Duh. :Headbang:

What's STET?

CE speak for "leave as is."

Best use of STET was in the Midnight Louie mystery "Catnap" by Carole Nelson Douglas. A nasty editor called Chester Royal (a thinly disguised Lester Del Rey) is found dead at an ABA convention. A knitting needle is in his heart and a note with the word "STET" left on his forehead. :evil

Every writer needs to read CATNAP (http://www.amazon.com/Catnap-Midnight-Louie-Mystery-Mysteries/dp/0812516826), BTW. All the crappy stuff that editor did to writers actually DID happen to Carole. She said she had to tone it down, too. :eek:

.

Cyia
11-29-2009, 12:37 AM
Thank you :)

As for the "leak" - the book wasn't under contract, so I doubt they could sue. Maybe they could insist on new material if tries to sell it or something.

She gave it to the actors in the movie so they'd have "characterization" material (translation - there was so little to Edward's personality in Twilight, she had to give RPatz something to work with). So, the hottest YA title in the world sits on a make-up table in a trailer and what d'ya know, someone peeked.

Gillhoughly
11-29-2009, 01:15 AM
Thank you :)

As for the "leak" - the book wasn't under contract, so I doubt they could sue. Maybe they could insist on new material if tries to sell it or something.

I stand corrected and should check my sources! The info I got indicated she'd gotten too friendly with fans.

Which is still a BAD idea.

Except for this *one* charmer with amazing blue eyes I met at a con a few years back, and was--oh, TMI. That had nothing to do with writing, anyway. :D

OTOH--I find it hard to believe that she would write a whole MS without a signed contract. Was she thinking on taking a spec MS to auction?

As for the whole Twi-thing, this video sums it up nicely for me (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZwM3GvaTRM).

.

Medievalist
11-29-2009, 01:23 AM
The flaws named in the review are the same ones I see in the blog.

Yeah--and they really do suggest someone who is profoundly dyslexic--speaking as someone who is profoundly dyslexic, and has a fair amount of experience teaching non NT/LD students.

But.

If I can do it, then so can she--if she cares.

If her books are still with Ace, then she and I may share editors, and I can state that their copy-editors--the ones I've had--are *excellent* and know their craft. I am very contentious about my writing, but when it's clear they're right and I'm wrong I don't make a fuss.

However, if a writer gets "clout" --usually from great sales--and rubber stamps STET over all changes or turns the MS in late so there's no time to argue the diff between plural and possessive, then yes, you're going to see a sloppy final product. I've dealt with a few word-divas and they are NOT fun.

I suspect that that is exactly what happened.

I also know, as a former typesetter, that if you've managed to out-STET all the editors, the typesetter is just going to set the damn type and not worry about your transpositions.

EclipsesMuse
11-29-2009, 02:25 AM
Also... I would just kill to read a darned scary vampire novel, you know? No orgies or anything - something creepy like Salem's Lot.

Yes! Please! Vampires used to be frightening. Now they're de-fanged.

Cyia
11-29-2009, 02:31 AM
I have never seen vampires as scary. Not even as a kid. Fascinating yes, scary not even close.

The Salem's Lot vamps are creepy, but they're more Nosferatu than vampire.

EclipsesMuse
11-29-2009, 03:09 AM
Ok, understood, I'm not easily frightened either. How vampires depicted more as monsters? I feel that the evil vampires are overshadowed by the humane vampire. What happened to books centered on people running for their lives (or fighting) vampires? Hell, even a story about someone falling in an abusive love with an evil vampire and in the end gaining their freedom?

Cyia
11-29-2009, 03:15 AM
You'd love my story about a canned hunt where the vamps are hunting humans :D

EclipsesMuse
11-29-2009, 03:23 AM
You'd love my story about a canned hunt where the vamps are hunting humans :D

Oooh, Sounds interesting.

Gillhoughly
11-29-2009, 03:25 AM
If I can do it, then so can she--if she cares.

Medievalist, you are in expert company. (http://www.cannell.com/dyslexia.php)

He's one of my heroes. Hell of a writer!

Michiru
11-29-2009, 08:01 AM
Do her books still actually sell well? I mean obviously she's still a bestseller, but is this the kind of best seller where she used to sell a million and now she sells 500k?

Actually, it's the opposite. LKH's early books--the good ones, in other words--sold just barely well enough for her publisher to let her continue the series. It was once the series began to descend into porn that they showed up on the New York Times bestseller list (I think Burnt Offerings was the first one to appear low on the NY Times list for a week), and now that they're pure porn, each book has a first printing of around 225,000 copies (her Merry Gentry series is lower, 100-thousand-plus), debut in the top 10 (and usually at number one) on the NY Times bestseller list, and all go through multiple printings.

The Amazon crowd are an organized group of haters, who are really offended and angry at LKH. If you look at the message boards and reviews, you'll notice the same names over and over again. Not that they don't have a point, the books really are pretty bad, but their concentrated campaign of loathing is really something to watch--the bad reviews are just part of it. @_@

However, as others have said, LKH's sales are nothing to Twilight, which seems to have annoyed her, because she gave a big interview where she said the Twilight books scare her because they're so damsel in distress. Hee hee...

Saskatoonistan
11-29-2009, 08:10 AM
However, as others have said, LKH's sales are nothing to Twilight, which seems to have annoyed her, because she gave a big interview where she said the Twilight books scare her because they're so damsel in distress. Hee hee...


I'll take the damsel in distress over a skank any day.

Jess Haines
11-29-2009, 11:55 AM
Ok, understood, I'm not easily frightened either. How vampires depicted more as monsters? I feel that the evil vampires are overshadowed by the humane vampire. What happened to books centered on people running for their lives (or fighting) vampires? Hell, even a story about someone falling in an abusive love with an evil vampire and in the end gaining their freedom?

Try UNDER THE FANG (http://www.amazon.com/Under-Horror-Writers-America-Present/dp/0671695738/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1259479455&sr=1-1) on for size. Lovely little piece of shivery goodness. Very dark, and, at times, very scary.

willietheshakes
11-29-2009, 01:31 PM
so 'sex with a teen' is not, not, not paedophilia.


By medical and psycholgical definition, sex with a teen is not pedophilia -- pedophilia refers to sexual attraction to pre-pubescent children.

Terie
11-29-2009, 02:49 PM
I'll take the damsel in distress over a skank any day.

Ya know, Saskatoonistan, this sentence, taken a different way...... :eek:

:D

kaitie
11-29-2009, 03:37 PM
By medical and psycholgical definition, sex with a teen is not pedophilia -- pedophilia refers to sexual attraction to pre-pubescent children.

What amazed me most was that I remember back in the day when Anita wouldn't even THINK of sleeping with Nathaniel because even though he was legal, he had the "emotional maturity" of a child. Granted, she threw that out the window with everything else, but still. There was a time when "Well, he's legal in Nevada" wouldn't have been an excuse and she would have realized it was still an adult taking advantage of a teenager.

EclipsesMuse
11-30-2009, 02:21 AM
Try UNDER THE FANG (http://www.amazon.com/Under-Horror-Writers-America-Present/dp/0671695738/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1259479455&sr=1-1) on for size. Lovely little piece of shivery goodness. Very dark, and, at times, very scary.

Thanks. It looks interesting, so I think I'll pick it up.

As for Anita, I read the books during my high school years, when they first came out. I really enjoyed the tough female character and the plot was interesting enough. Plus, the story had vampires. As one of her early fans, I am really disappointed how the books have turned out. Not just the porn covered by Swiss cheese plot, but also the fact that in later book Anita seemed to get a new power in every book. If I remember correctly this started around the same time the blatant sex scenes did. Now, almost nothing can stop Anita, which makes the stories even more unbelievable.

Also, if my novel was published with so many grammar and spelling errors, I'd just be embarrassed. To me, not only does it denote that the author does not care about her readers, but also shows laziness and ineptness.

djf881
11-30-2009, 02:42 AM
I understand that typographical errors that do not appear in authors' manuscripts frequently appear in the complete book because the text is transcribed into the typesetting system by some third person.

Cathy C
11-30-2009, 03:37 AM
Yes! Please! Vampires used to be frightening. Now they're de-fanged.

You might try my Thrall series. Although billed as paranormal romance, the first book, Touch of Ev (http://www.amazon.com/Touch-Evil-Thrall-Book-1/dp/0765354004)il, was only two votes shy of the short list for the Bram Stoker award. (Not exactly a singing endorsement for a romance, huh? LOL! :ROFL: )

We have vampires as sentient parasites that swim through your veins and fuse to your brain stem to make you part of a hive mind and turn you evil. Dracula meets the Borg. :D

As for the LKH debate, I'll elect to stay out of the fray. I'm a huge fan of Laurell's work and have been thrilled that she likes our books in return.

As for urban fantasy, I think the winner for earliest instance is probably Fritz Lieber's Conjure Wife (http://www.amazon.com/Conjure-Wife-Fritz-Leiber/dp/0765324067/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1259536020&sr=1-1), first pubbed sometime in the early 1920s.

Medievalist
11-30-2009, 03:46 AM
I understand that typographical errors that do not appear in authors' manuscripts frequently appear in the complete book because the text is transcribed into the typesetting system by some third person.

This was common twenty years ago; it is not done now, with a few rare exceptions:

Engineering and math texts that do not use LaTex may be re-keyboarded by a specialist.

Some multi-language texts.

There are standards now -- mostly xml -- which are more reliable. And some nifty "remove the Microsoft crap" tools.

ChristineR
11-30-2009, 04:01 AM
I'm not sure who did what first, but I think of LKH as defining many of the conventions of the genre.

Vampires, magic, etc. are common enough so that everyone knows about them and no one questions their existence.
Society has changed to accommodate all the supernatural stuff going on, i.e. writing laws for vampires instead of just trying to stake all of them.
The protagonist is a sexy-but-tough woman.
The protagonist is normal human, or a normal human who gets slightly enhanced in the course of the story. In any case she's more likely to be fast and strong but 100% human than she is to be a werewolf.
The main story arc is this mostly normal woman being tangled up against her will in a complex plot involving supernatural creatures and having to put things right.
She's frequently a detective, or amateur detective, or something similar.
She has hot sex with supernatural men.

I doubt if she was first to do any of this, especially if you don't require all the elements to be in place, but there are so many books out there now that follow these basic conventions that she seems pretty pioneering to me. Maybe pioneering is the wrong word though, since it's not like she really entered new territory.

Cyia
11-30-2009, 04:06 AM
The protagonist is a sexy-but-tough woman.
The protagonist is normal human, or a normal human who gets slightly enhanced in the course of the story. In any case she's more likely to be fast and strong but 100% human than she is to be a werewolf.
The main story arc is this mostly normal woman being tangled up against her will in a complex plot involving supernatural creatures and having to put things right.
She's frequently a detective, or amateur detective, or something similar.
She has hot sex with supernatural men.


Vicki Nelson.

Gillhoughly
11-30-2009, 05:13 AM
Yup, Vicki Nelson. Blood Price, 1991. (Tanya Huff)

Diana Tregarde. Burning Water, 1989. (Mercedes Lackey)

Jinx High is still one of my favs.

MacAllister
11-30-2009, 05:17 AM
Yup, Vicki Nelson. Blood Price, 1991. (Tanya Huff)

Diana Tregarde. Burning Water, 1989. (Mercedes Lackey)

Jinx High is still one of my favs.
I sort of wondered if the Diana Tregarde books weren't just a little too far ahead of the curve, and maybe not quite...wicked...enough. I remember reading a statement from Misty Lackey that they didn't sell nearly as well as the Valdemar books, and they seemed to bring the weirdo tinfoil-beanie fans out of the woodwork, too. I thought they were altogether smarter, more fun, and more readable than the Anita Blake books.

Medievalist
11-30-2009, 05:27 AM
Yup, Vicki Nelson. Blood Price, 1991. (Tanya Huff)

Diana Tregarde. Burning Water, 1989. (Mercedes Lackey)

Jinx High is still one of my favs.

And that Fred Saberhagen vampire sequel with Dracula. Shoot. An Old Friend of the Family, and his The Holmes-Dracula File.

And Barbra Hambly fits in there, somewhere .. .

The C. T. Adams Cathy Clamp vamps are freakishly well done, and incredibly nightmarish, btw. I don't want to know how they came up with that, really, I don't. They aren't like anything else, at all.

Gillhoughly
11-30-2009, 05:29 AM
they seemed to bring the weirdo tinfoil-beanie fans out of the woodwork, too. I thought they were altogether smarter, more fun, and more readable than the Anita Blake books.

They are better to read, not at all pretentious.

I did get some inside dish from a friend of a friend (grain of salt time) that she got unpleasant feedback from anonymous whack jobs. It was more serious than she made it out to be in public, choosing to play it down lest things escalate beyond creepy threats.

scarletpeaches
11-30-2009, 05:29 AM
The C. T. Adams Cathy Clamp vamps are freakishly well done, and incredibly nightmarish, btw. I don't want to know how they came up with that, really, I don't. They aren't like anything else, at all.Yeah. I want to read those books but the back of my neck threatens a migraine whenever I consider buying...

scarletpeaches
11-30-2009, 05:32 AM
And I meant because they sound sinister, I didn't mean reading them would give me a migraine.

Shadow_Ferret
11-30-2009, 05:38 AM
What about Kolchak: The Night Stalker that aired in the 70s?

MacAllister
11-30-2009, 05:52 AM
That's right! I'd forgotten about Carl Kolchak. There was Forever Knight (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forever_Knight) (1989) too, with a vampire cop.

Gillhoughly
11-30-2009, 06:10 AM
KOLCHAK RAWKS!!!:e2woo:

And lives again.... (http://www.moonstonebooks.com/kolchak.asp)!

Shadow_Ferret
11-30-2009, 06:15 AM
I have that edition. I didn't realize that the novel was unpublished at the time the show aired.

Not sure if these count but from Old Time Radio serials:

The Shadow (including pulp novels). Crimefighter, detective, but had the psychic ablities including the power to cloud mens minds so that they couldn't see him.

Chandu the Magician: Learn occult secrets from a Yogi in India and could astral project, teleport, and create illusions.

The Green Lama. A competitor of The Shadow on radio and pulps. Learned mystical secrets in Tibet.

Medievalist
11-30-2009, 06:24 AM
They are better to read, not at all pretentious.

I did get some inside dish from a friend of a friend (grain of salt time) that she got unpleasant feedback from anonymous whack jobs. It was more serious than she made it out to be in public, choosing to play it down lest things escalate beyond creepy threats.

She was stalked, horribly, at cons. It was ugly. Made me deeply ashamed of fandom for the first time.

ChristineR
11-30-2009, 05:22 PM
I loved Kolchak.

But he did still have the "nobody but me believes in vampires and I always lose the evidence just before the end of the hour" thing as well. He was set in the world as we know it, more or less.

MMcQuown
11-30-2009, 05:58 PM
Thanks. It looks interesting, so I think I'll pick it up.

As for Anita, I read the books during my high school years, when they first came out. I really enjoyed the tough female character and the plot was interesting enough. Plus, the story had vampires. As one of her early fans, I am really disappointed how the books have turned out. Not just the porn covered by Swiss cheese plot, but also the fact that in later book Anita seemed to get a new power in every book. If I remember correctly this started around the same time the blatant sex scenes did. Now, almost nothing can stop Anita, which makes the stories even more unbelievable.

Also, if my navel was published with so many grammar and spelling errors, I'd just be embarrassed. To me, not only does it denote that the author does not care about her readers, but also shows laziness and ineptness.
If your 'navel' was published with so many spelling errors?
As to the Anita Blake novels, I lost interest in the porn after awhile. What I don't understand is why the publisher allows books to hit the stands with all those errors. Doesn't anyone copyedit this stuff anymore? I had noticed it in the Kim Harrison books as well.

MMcQuown
11-30-2009, 06:42 PM
Reminds me of a very funny line I heard years ago: "I had a choice of inventing sex or bubble gum, and I chose riches over glory." Don't remember the source; it might have been a fan named rich brown. (The lower case is not an accident: he always styled himself that way.)

Cathy C
11-30-2009, 06:57 PM
Kolchak is my HERO! I own every one of the episodes on VHS. :D

I even hope to have a story in the next antho. Fingers crossed it gets picked. The publisher has it now to look over. :)

Gillhoughly
11-30-2009, 08:47 PM
Disregard my post about Mercedes Lackey. I was misinformed and UNDER informed.

It was not something as silly as "unpleasant feedback," but far, far worse. And she took it very seriously.

I had NO idea it was this bad and apologize for being too light about it.

In the author's own words just how bad (http://www.mercedeslackey.com/features_laststraw.html).

Read it all and think it over. That could be any one of us in her shoes.

Okay, I'm NOT faulting LKH for having a bodyguard at signings. It ain't pretension, but a necessity.

Cyia
11-30-2009, 09:28 PM
Disregard my post about Mercedes Lackey. I was misinformed and UNDER informed.

It was not something as silly as "unpleasant feedback," but far, far worse. And she took it very seriously.

I had NO idea it was this bad and apologize for being too light about it.

In the author's own words just how bad (http://www.mercedeslackey.com/features_laststraw.html).

Read it all and think it over. That could be any one of us in her shoes.

Okay, I'm NOT faulting LKH for having a bodyguard at signings. It ain't pretension, but a necessity.



:Wha: :Wha: :Wha: :Wha: :Wha:

And you know there are people, who after reading that, thought the whole thing was a ruse of some kind because she really "is" what she's telling them she's not.

People are insane. The larger the group, the more insane they become. (Intelligence drops by the proportional inverse to the population of a given, assembled, group. I'm convinced this is scientific fact.)

Remember "fan" = fanatic, and some people are way too eager to act like it.

Gillhoughly
11-30-2009, 09:56 PM
Yeah, they're nuts.

I go with the "If I had magic powers would I still be here?" logic.

If I had the abilities of one of my characters I'd have had Bernard Madoff and his pals clog dancing naked at the NY Stock Exchange and would myself be arranging to have teachers' salaries raised everywhere.

Not necessarily in that order.

EclipsesMuse
11-30-2009, 10:55 PM
If your 'navel' was published with so many spelling errors?


Oops, missed one. Thanks for pointing that out. It's been fixed.

Cyia
11-30-2009, 11:27 PM
Oops, missed one. Thanks for pointing that out. It's been fixed.

LoL - I thought it was an intentional typo. :ROFL:

EclipsesMuse
11-30-2009, 11:48 PM
LoL - I thought it was an intentional typo. :ROFL:

Nope, I missed it when going through the post. See, now I AM embarrassed.
Luckily, we can edit this thread. ;)

HelloKiddo
12-01-2009, 12:42 AM
In the author's own words just how bad (http://www.mercedeslackey.com/features_laststraw.html).

OMFG. If I hadn't heard from very reliable sources (you guys) that she was in earnest I would surely have thought she was exaggerating. I mean, seriously. There are really crazy people out there.

Wha...how...just...huh?

Cathy C
12-01-2009, 12:54 AM
I had NO idea it was this bad and apologize for being too light about it.

In the author's own words just how bad (http://www.mercedeslackey.com/features_laststraw.html).

Read it all and think it over. That could be any one of us in her shoes.



Um . . . wow. Just wow, and in a bad way. :eek:

I do remember a similar issue with romance author Kayla Perrin, who showed up at one RT convention with a host of federal agents guarding her. Why? Because someone threatened to abduct her, take her across state lines and . . .well, we never really found out what they planned to do. I believe the guy was caught, because she was at the next convention. But it is real, and scary. People can be very strange.

Medievalist
12-01-2009, 02:05 AM
At least one of those select and trusted few just HAD to share with someone else, and before you know it, the book's being passed around the Net like mono at a high school dance.

I share my books prior to sending the finals to my editor--but only ever with a couple writer pals whose job is to tell me what's wrong with my words. They're pros, too, and I *can* trust them!

As a heads-up--for future reference.

Micorosoft Word, like many applications, appends data to files. Files often carry their entire data history with them. Some of this happens even if you don't save the file.

The person who leaked Meyer's ms. left footprints in the file.

And frankly, this sort of betrayal is so vile that I dare not use the words I'm thinking of. Yes, she was wrong-headed.

But.

This is just vile rotten behavior; it's betraying a trust, as well as being data pirate.

emilycross
12-01-2009, 02:42 AM
Wow. God it seriously make you rethink being a writer. That post is pretty horrific.

On a happier note - this thread is really great for my TBR pile, already added them to my wishlist on amazon. Thanks everyone :)

Cyia
12-01-2009, 03:53 AM
Did any of you read the second post - from "Firebird" - explaining WHY she wrote that "Last straw" post? What 2 year old was shot dead in a crib in their house?

HelloKiddo
12-01-2009, 04:09 AM
Did any of you read the second post - from "Firebird" - explaining WHY she wrote that "Last straw" post? What 2 year old was shot dead in a crib in their house?

I read it, but if you read it carefully he didn't actually say that it was a deranged "fan" who committed the murder. Just the husband of a mother who was staying with the author to escape an abusive household.

Gillhoughly
12-01-2009, 04:13 AM
Did any of you read the second post - from "Firebird" - explaining WHY she wrote that "Last straw" post? What 2 year old was shot dead in a crib in their house?

Too fast a read, I think. The pieces say baby was murdered by its father during a court sanctioned visitation that Lackey, her spouse, the baby's mother, and family all opposed. I don't think it happened at her house or I'd have heard more about it.

The Last Straw also had to do with Lackey wanting to protect any fan who might have wound up as collateral damage, should the nutcases take a shot at her.

LKH has had books thrown at her, paint thrown on her, verbally abused, etc. at signings. It's a very short step for a nutter to start shooting and some kid getting in the way.

That's what Lackey feared the most.

Alan Yee
12-01-2009, 04:15 AM
Regarding Mercedes Lackey's ultra-insane readers: Dear gawd. I hope that when I'm published, I don't become too well-known, because that is some seriously scary shit.

Cyia
12-01-2009, 04:21 AM
This is what I was talking about: (Spoilered for graphic nature)

Remember the two year old that ended up with a bullet through her head? Not a character in one of Misty's books. But a real world small child that lived under Misty & Larry's roof, played with their cats, pulled the tails of the parrots, and never hurt anyone in her life. A small child Misty and Larry tried to protect. Dead. Brains splattered all over the crib.

"Under [their] roof" is what made me think the child was in their home at the time.

ChristineR
12-01-2009, 04:44 AM
This is what I got out of it. At one time, the child and its mother were living with Lackey because they were fleeing from the father and had nowhere to go. The father made Lackey's life difficult, to say the least. The murder took place when the child was visiting with its father. It wasn't clear to me whether the child was living in Lackey's house at the time. But it doesn't say exactly where it was.

Regarding the insane fans: It's a fairly common symptom of schizophrenia to lose boundaries. Someone is writing about you. The person following you is actually stalking you. The news announcer is sending you secret messages with his eyebrows. Sufferers can't distinguish between fantasies and reality. Since the Diana Tregarde books took place in the real world and mentioned actual places, it was presumably easier for an ill person to latch onto them. I think the combination of real world setting, scary supernatural elements, and bad luck with a very small number of ill people probably created the situation. Although this doesn't fit LKH as well, and many, many other authors have similar issues.

Fortunately, if you think that you're being stalked by a super-secret supernatural cabal from someone's books, you're likely not coherent enough to buy guns, get to a con, get past all the crowds unnoticed, etc. But it happens. :(

LOG
12-01-2009, 09:42 AM
Meh, I've always found her stories a bit self-insertish and just a wee mary-sueish...

MMcQuown
12-01-2009, 06:47 PM
Oops, missed one. Thanks for pointing that out. It's been fixed.
Hope I didn't embarrass you. I might not even have pointed it out, except that it was a bit funny. I spent ten years as a copyeditor/proofreader, and these things just jump off the page at me.

MMcQuown
12-01-2009, 06:51 PM
Kolchak is my HERO! I own every one of the episodes on VHS. :D

I even hope to have a story in the next antho. Fingers crossed it gets picked. The publisher has it now to look over. :)
Did you happen to see the updated version of "Night Stalker"? If so, what did you think? Best of luck with the story.

Cathy C
12-01-2009, 07:41 PM
I did see it. I tried to like it. Really. But it wasn't really for me. The biggest difference was that they gave him a tortured past that really took away from the premise. They kept trying to give him a reason to be looking for the stories, rather than just having them keep happening to him. That was the beauty, and the appeal of the original series. He just couldn't seem to ESCAPE the paranormal. It found him--nearly sought him out and yet nobody would believe him (or at least he assumed they wouldn't, or the world would panic, so he hid the evidence.) The combination of his pure motives against his 'anything for a story' nature was the best conflict, and the only one needed, IMO. :)

Shadow_Ferret
12-01-2009, 07:49 PM
Yeah, I too wanted to like the new Night Stalker. I didn't think he needed a backstory about some thing killing his wife or whatever giving him the impetuous for why he pursues nasties. Then it just became unnecessarily complicated because some FBI agent just kept following him around, threatening his freedom.

As Cathy said, the fun of the original was the stories just sort of fell into his lap and he saw vampires and werewolves when everyone else just saw an everyday weirdo killer. The new show died a quick, merciful death.

No, I'm content to watch the old series over and over and over and over again.

MMcQuown
12-02-2009, 04:33 PM
Yeah, I too wanted to like the new Night Stalker. I didn't think he needed a backstory about some thing killing his wife or whatever giving him the impetuous for why he pursues nasties. Then it just became unnecessarily complicated because some FBI agent just kept following him around, threatening his freedom.

As Cathy said, the fun of the original was the stories just sort of fell into his lap and he saw vampires and werewolves when everyone else just saw an everyday weirdo killer. The new show died a quick, merciful death.

No, I'm content to watch the old series over and over and over and over again.
I could have bought it if he was the son of the original Carl Kolchak; but this guy was too slick, and way too rich. The whole show was too slick. I rather liked the idea that he actually had a couple of people who believed him, but all the rest was, as previously noted, too complicated.

Richard White
12-02-2009, 07:19 PM
For you oldies in the group, it reminded me of the first season of "The Invaders" vs. the second season.

In the first season, you had a guy who saw aliens land on Earth and they knew they'd been seen. It was a race to try and stay ahead of them, thwart their plans and stay alive while no one would believe him at all. It was a psychological drama as much as an action/adventure story.

Second season, they changed the format, gave him a support crew of people who believed him and were working with him. It was "good" but not great and looking back on it, I can see why the ratings plummeted the second season.

Sometimes it's good to mess with a formula to keep a show fresh, but there's a fine line between improving a recipe and turning it into inedible mush.

ChaosTitan
12-02-2009, 08:08 PM
Sometimes it's good to mess with a formula to keep a show fresh, but there's a fine line between improving a recipe and turning it into inedible mush.
Another notorious example of this was NBC's "Boomtown." The first season was brilliant, with an excellent cast and strong storytelling. The basic premise was that crimes were shown from the POV's of different sets of people involved--street cops, detectives, the ADA, a reporter, and a paramedic. So what did they do in season two? Got rid of the multiple POV's (!!), made the paramedic a rookie cop (!?!), got rid of the reporter, and tried to make it just another cop show. Epic. Fail.

Gillhoughly
12-02-2009, 08:20 PM
Sometimes it's good to mess with a formula to keep a show fresh, but there's a fine line between improving a recipe and turning it into inedible mush.

Indeed.

Which kind of brings us back to the original topic, and that getting a TV series ain't necessarily a good thing for the integrity of one's characters, though it can be very good to one's checking account.

FWIW, I hated the new Kolchak, which had too much X-Files, NO humor, and the worst crime of all, NO DARREN MCGAVIN! They brought in a pretty boy who was organized and efficient, not a I'm making this up as I go Don Quixote in a porkpie hat.

Anyone else notice the new guy had a Harry Potter lightning bolt on his hand? :headslap:

I got to see the original TV movie on a large screen at a pal's home theater, and lemme tell you, it is a totally different one than you've seen on a small TV screen. It just got BETTER. McGavin put a lot of layers into his portrayal of Carl Kolchak--especially in that scene where he realizes the powers that be are going to cover everything up. They had only to point the camera at him and let him do his thing. Now THAT was acting! Whoa!

But who knows how things might have been with the Anita Blake series? The early books are very readable, snappy, and fun. The latter ones are not, but the writer found out there's more money in porn, so she's not likely to change things.

I would suggest she stop putting pics on her website with herself dressed like Anita. That's just inviting mockage--unless she's purposly courting it for promotional reasons. Otherwise it just adds to the impression that she's nailed on Rice's crazy hat.

Sharing details of her sex life--well, I know another writer who has done that on her blog, but then she's danged FUNNY about it, AND she writes about *other* topics. Otherwise it's one long Dear Penthouse letter. Ew.

Momento Mori
12-02-2009, 09:40 PM
Gillhoughly:
I got to see the original TV movie on a large screen at a pal's home theater, and lemme tell you, it is a totally different one than you've seen on a small TV screen. It just got BETTER. McGavin put a lot of layers into his portrayal of Carl Kolchak--especially in that scene where he realizes the powers that be are going to cover everything up. They had only to point the camera at him and let him do his thing. Now THAT was acting! Whoa!


Agreed. Plus the relationship between Kolchak and Tony the Editor was always brilliant - who needs some pouting love interest when you've got two wise-cracking, seen-it-all journos with deadlines to meet?

MM

Cyia
12-02-2009, 10:36 PM
I only ever saw one episode of Night Stalker (the old one) as some kind of last minute fill-in show when I was a kid, and I still remember it. It was black and white, and like nothing else on TV that I can think of. I think that's why I named one of my vampires Karl. :D

Richard White
12-02-2009, 11:02 PM
Those were some fun days of TV.

The Night Stalker
Night Gallery with Rod Serling
Dark Shadows

And when I was a kid: The Outer Limits and the Twilight Zone set the standard for SF/H/creepy

EclipsesMuse
12-02-2009, 11:13 PM
Hope I didn't embarrass you. I might not even have pointed it out, except that it was a bit funny. I spent ten years as a copyeditor/proofreader, and these things just jump off the page at me.
Nope, thanks for pointing that out! I'm not great at getting all my typos, still working on that!

ChristineR
12-02-2009, 11:50 PM
I think that the original Kolchak pretty neatly subverted one of the major problems with the "monsters among us" genre, which is that after the first few episodes, everyone on the planet should know about the vampires and be walking around with crosses and holy water. There was some sort of supernatural logic going on which made it happen that only Kolchak (and the occasional kooky helpful guest star) to be around when the mummy walked, and of course no one ever took Kolchak seriously because he was always saying "The mummy! He was just there!"

Plus it was hilarious every time it happened, because McGavin's acting was so damn good.

Rowan
12-03-2009, 04:54 AM
There are probably also people who want to read just in case they finally got better again, but really, how many times would you need to get burned to figure out it's time to quit?

I'd read another one just to see if Anita finally gets killed. :) My dislike for her increased with each novel! She annoyed me with her holier than thou attitude (mainly about sex based on some dude dumping her in college - boo hoo), her pathetic wardrobe (repeated remarks about the black nikes with a blue swoosh) and then the metaphysical sex novels with ZERO plot. The fact she became invincible also put a damper on things, combined with the fact she was a hypocrite when it came to sexual partners (ie., Richard/Jean-Claude couldn't sleep around but yet she beds half of St. Louis' population). Oh there's more but I'll stop here. :rant:

The earlier Blake novels were interesting reads, primarly for Jean-Claude and other supporting characters like the Rat King (Raphael?) and Edward. Who knows what went wrong? :Shrug:

Gillhoughly
12-03-2009, 05:32 AM
Who knows what went wrong? :Shrug:

She found out there's more money in porn erotica, and the sales back her up on that fact.

Tons of fans don't like the books anymore--I'm one of them--but *someone's* buying them.

Maybe it's the readers who don't know where to find the free porn erotica on the 'Net. :D

Cyia
12-03-2009, 05:41 AM
Maybe it's the readers who don't know where to find the free porn erotica on the 'Net. :D

Fanfiction.net. I understand the quality is comparable.

*though LKH fic isn't welcome there*

EclipsesMuse
12-03-2009, 05:57 AM
Fanfiction.net. I understand the quality is comparable.

*though LKH fic isn't welcome there*

adultfanfiction.net

I think I remember reading on that site or the regular fanfiction.net site that she requested not to have any fan fiction about her stories posted.

scarletpeaches
12-03-2009, 05:57 AM
Yeah, because it'd show her writing up.

Shadow_Ferret
12-03-2009, 05:58 AM
She found out there's more money in porn erotica, and the sales back her up on that fact.

Tons of fans don't like the books anymore--I'm one of them--but *someone's* buying them.



I was a huge fan in the beginning and I think I lasted through the first 6 before I realized the fun had gone from the relationship and all we had left was the sex, which wasn't that good. So I dropped her.

Rowan
12-03-2009, 06:10 AM
She found out there's more money in porn erotica, and the sales back her up on that fact.

Tons of fans don't like the books anymore--I'm one of them--but *someone's* buying them.

Maybe it's the readers who don't know where to find the free porn erotica on the 'Net. :D

Good point! I don't get it.
From one of her bio's... I'm baffled. :Wha:

Laurell does not shy away from sex or violence in her books. "I want a kiss to be so believable it give the reader shivers. Two things I do well in books are sex and violence, but I don't want gratuitous sex or violence. The sex and violence are only as graphic as need be. And never included unless it furthers the plot or character development."

I flipped through the first five pages of the latest AB novel (Skin Trade) and while there was no sex it was Anita on her friggin' pedestal (yet again). Maybe I can kill her (anonymously of course) in one of my own stories? :D

EclipsesMuse
12-03-2009, 06:16 AM
Yeah, because it'd show her writing up.
:ROFL:

You know, I wasn't going to say it...

Gillhoughly
12-03-2009, 06:38 AM
....I realized the fun had gone from the relationship and all we had left was the sex, which wasn't that good. So I dropped her.

Heh--sounds like the first (and last!) marriage I ever committed. :evil

Michiru
12-03-2009, 12:29 PM
I was a huge fan in the beginning and I think I lasted through the first 6 before I realized the fun had gone from the relationship and all we had left was the sex, which wasn't that good. So I dropped her.

I have to recommend book nine "Obsidian Butterfly" as well. No sex at all, great villains, and no romance--just mystery and action and cool characters.

Then we went back to sex, sadly, but OB is probably my favorite book in the series.

kaitie
12-03-2009, 01:47 PM
Good point! I don't get it.
From one of her bio's... I'm baffled. :Wha:



I flipped through the first five pages of the latest AB novel (Skin Trade) and while there was no sex it was Anita on her friggin' pedestal (yet again). Maybe I can kill her (anonymously of course) in one of my own stories? :D

Go read a plot summary for it and when you get to the ending you'll want to make an entire army of clones in your novel so you can kill those as well. :tongue In fact...can I borrow a few?

Rowan
12-03-2009, 03:35 PM
Go read a plot summary for it and when you get to the ending you'll want to make an entire army of clones in your novel so you can kill those as well. :tongue In fact...can I borrow a few?

We can collaborate! What shall we name her character--need a porn name spin on Anita Blake! :D

Cyia
12-03-2009, 03:47 PM
I. Nita Bloke.

MMcQuown
12-03-2009, 06:13 PM
Meow, meow, meow, meow --- since people are being catty, might I observe that LKH seems to be following Ms Rice in becoming as bloated as her novels? Speaking of sex in these books, I tried to read 'Lasher' and was totally turned off. Rice's sex was just awful; at least LKH does it better. Back to Rice, how many people saw the wickedly funny episode of 'Forever Knight' in which Nick had to bodyguard the famous but annoying vampire author? I particularly liked the scene where Jeanette wanted to put the munch on her

Cathy C
12-03-2009, 06:49 PM
I have to recommend book nine "Obsidian Butterfly" as well. No sex at all, great villains, and no romance--just mystery and action and cool characters.

Then we went back to sex, sadly, but OB is probably my favorite book in the series.

Then you'll probably like "Skin Trade." Same characters and good overall plot with Anita being heap big vampire hunter. Just skip the sex scenes (only two and they're short) and the rest of the book has a great plot!

Gillhoughly
12-03-2009, 08:47 PM
I particularly liked the scene where Jeanette wanted to put the munch on her

My favorite was when Schanky did a send-up of LaCroix as he imagined himself to be the king vampire with extra large fangs.

John Kapelos nailed Nigel Bennett's take on that role. I remember literally falling off the couch from laughing so hard.

And yeah, that writer was annoying! http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/icons/icon10.gif

sammyig
12-03-2009, 09:39 PM
Another good old fashioned scary vampire book- if you can find it is Robert McCammon's They Thirst.

Phaeal
12-03-2009, 11:16 PM
The Gorn salutes you for your encyclopedic knowledge of urban fantasy history.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_peGbBMqGJ98/StNHalsjsLI/AAAAAAAABAs/cDXSZOpVA30/s400/StarTrek-Gorn.jpg

I SOOOOO WANT THIS DRESS FOR THE UPCOMING XMAS PARTY SEASON! And the gauntlet thingies, too. Mean ol' Gorn, he won't let me borrow them.

And...KOLCHAK ROCKS! I love you, Carl.

Ahem. About the porn and violence stuff. The TV True Blood is about as porny and violent as TV can readily be, I'd imagine. Why flood the market?

EclipsesMuse
12-04-2009, 12:07 AM
Then you'll probably like "Skin Trade." Same characters and good overall plot with Anita being heap big vampire hunter. Just skip the sex scenes (only two and they're short) and the rest of the book has a great plot!

You know, I saw a LKH interview about the research she did on Skin Trade. She said she kept trying to meet the deadline for the book and the heavy amount of research. She gave an example of not being in a morgue for 10 years, so she was not up to date on the new technology. Hmmm, I wonder why...

Gillhoughly
12-04-2009, 12:59 AM
The TV True Blood is about as porny and violent as TV can readily be, I'd imagine. Why flood the market?

Because porn & violence brings in viewers.

I love Charlaine's books, but had to stop watching the TV show because they skanked and bloodied the scripts up too much for my taste.

Since I was at a friend's house I couldn't fast forward through the violence. Nookie doesn't bother me, though there is a lot of it in the show because H'wood script writers MUST present all southern folk as hicks who only know how to hump, get drunk, and fight.

Well, we DO, but we do other stuff, too.

But the excessive gore was a total gross out.

I kept wondering, "How are they going to clean the Ribena from THAT set?"





TOTALLY OFF TOPIC!!!

Rules for non-southern writers attempting to write about the south:


1) Don't order filet mignon or pasta primavera at Waffle House. It's just a diner. They serve breakfast 24 hours a day. Let them cook something they know. If you confuse them, they'll kick your ass.


2) Don't laugh at our Southern names (Merleen, Bodie, Bubby, Bobby Ray, Tammy Lynn, Billy Joe, Sissy, Clovis, etc.). Or we will just HAVE to kick your ass.


3) Don't order a bottle of pop or a can of soda down here. Down here it's called Coke. Nobody gives a damn whether it's Pepsi, RC, Dr. Pepper, 7-Up or whatever - it's still a Coke. Accept it. Doing otherwise can lead to an ass kicking.


4) We know our heritage. Most of us are more literate than you( e.g.,Welty, Williams, Faulkner). We are also better educated and generally a lot nicer. Don't refer to us as a bunch of hillbillies, or we'll kick your ass.


5) We have plenty of business sense (e.g., Fred Smith of Fed Ex, Turner Broadcasting, MCI WorldCom, MTV, Netscape, Dell computers). Naturally, we do sometimes, have small lapses in judgment (e.g., Carter, Duke, Barnes, Clinton).


6) Don't laugh at our Civil War monuments. If Lee had listened to Longstreet and flanked Meade at Gettysburg instead of sending Pickett up the middle, you'd be paying taxes to Richmond instead of Washington. If you visit Stone Mountain and complain about the carving, we'll kick your ass.


7) We are fully aware of how high the humidity is, so shut the hell up. Just spend your money and get the hell out of here, or we'll kick your ass.


8) Don't order wheat toast at Cracker Barrel. Everyone will instantly know that you're a Yankee. Eat your biscuits like God intended -- with gravy. And don't put sugar on your grits, or we'll kick your ass.


9) Don't talk about how much better things are at home because we know better. Many of us have visited Northern hell-holes like Detroit, Chicago, and DC, and we have the scars to prove it. If you don't like it here, Delta is ready when you are. Move your ass on home before it gets kicked.

10) Yes, we know how to speak proper English. We talk this way because we don't want to sound like you. We don't care if you don't understand what we are saying. All other Southerners understand what we are saying, and that's all that matters. Now, go away and leave us alone, or we'll kick your ass.


11) Don't complain that the South is dirty and polluted. None of OUR lakes or rivers have caught fire recently. If you whine about OUR scenic beauty, we'll kick your ass all the way back to Boston Harbor.


12) Don't ridicule our Southern manners. We say sir and ma'am. We hold doors open for others. We offer our seats to old folks because such things are expected of civilized people. Behave yourselves around our sweet little gray-haired grandmothers or they'll kick some manners into your ass just like they did ours.


13) So you think we're quaint or losers because most of us live in the countryside? That's because we have enough sense to not live in filthy, smelly, crime-infested cesspools like New York or Baltimore. Make fun of our fresh air, and we'll kick your sorry ass.


14) Nothing in California is Southern, so if you come down here, don't think you're one of us just because you say you're from Southern California. Your Mexicans didn't invent low riders, ours did. And the food is Tex Mex. It isn't Cali Mex. You haven't contributed anything to South so don't take credit or we'll kick your ass.


15) Last, but not least, DO NOT DARE to come down here and tell us how to barbecue. This will get your ass shot (right after it is kicked). You're lucky we let you come down here at all! Criticize our barbeque, and you will go home in a pine box. Minus your ass.

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/icons/icon10.gif

BenPanced
12-04-2009, 01:24 AM
8) Don't order wheat toast at Cracker Barrel. Everyone will instantly know that you're a Yankee. Eat your biscuits like God intended -- with gravy. And don't put sugar on your grits, or we'll kick your ass.http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/icons/icon10.gif

*meekly raises hand*

C'n I have butter on mine?

GregB
12-04-2009, 01:31 AM
5) We have plenty of business sense (e.g. [...] MCI WorldCom [...]


Ouch. Someone needs to update their rant.

Cathy C
12-04-2009, 01:38 AM
Bobby Ray, Tammy Lynn, Billy Joe

I am still getting used to the naming conventions and other weirdnesses in the South (specifically Texas):

Meredith shouldn't be a boy
Orvis shouldn't be a girl
The addition of an 'e' on the end of the name shouldn't turn it from male to female (Johnnye or Billye)

It causes weirdnesses in legal documents like Meredith Jones et ux Orvis Jones. (BTW, et ux is latin for "and wife", like et vir is latin for "and husband").

Land is measured in "varas" (don't ask...) and pristine ponds are "dirt tanks."

So please be kind to us when we stare at you and go :Wha: when we encounter these things.

:roll:

Gillhoughly
12-04-2009, 01:49 AM
Heh-- not my rant. http://www.g21.net/tab45.html

I did take out most of the politics.

That's an oldie.

Here's another especially for Cathy!

"True" Facts (http://www.dennydavis.net/poemfiles/traveltx.htm) about Texas



Armadillos love to dig holes under tomato plants.
Armadillos sleep in the middle of the road with their feet in the air.
"Backards" and "Forards" means I know everything about you.
"Coldbeer" is one word.
Country people don't have to buy a dog. City people drop them off at your gate in the middle of the night.
Fire ants consider your flesh as a picnic.
"Fixinto" is one word.
Graduating 1st in your class means you left in the 8th grade.
Green grass DOES burn.
If it grows, it sticks; if it crawls, it bites.
It is not a shopping cart, it is a buggy.
Nothing will kill a mesquite tree.
"Onced" and "Twiced" are words.
People actually grow and eat okra.
Raccoons will test your crop of melons and let you know when they are ripe.
Roadrunners don't say "Beep Beep."
Texans really don't have an accent.
The sound of coyotes howling at night only sounds good for the first couple of weeks.
A tank is a dirt hole in the ground that holds drinkin' water for your cows.
There are 10,000 types of spiders, and 10,001 live in Texas.
There are 5,000 types of snakes, and 4,998 live in Texas.
There are valid reasons for some people to put concertina wire around their house.
A tractor is NOT an all-terrain vehicle. They do get stuck.
When a buzzard sits on the fence and stares at you, it's time to go to the doctor.
When the world ends, only cockroaches and mesquite trees will survive.
The wind blows at 90 MPH from October 2 until July 15, then it stops totally.
You cannot find a country road without a curve from corner to corner.
You don't have to wear a watch because it doesn't matter what time it is.
You work until you're done or it's too dark to see.
Texans will laugh harder at this than anyone because they KNOW the facts are true!

MMcQuown
12-04-2009, 01:56 PM
Another good old fashioned scary vampire book- if you can find it is Robert McCammon's They Thirst.
Yes! McCammon is a writer who really understands the nature of evil; I think I have everything he wrote. Thought Usher's Passing was a really neat update on the Poe story.

kaitie
12-04-2009, 06:50 PM
Heh-- not my rant. http://www.g21.net/tab45.html

I did take out most of the politics.

That's an oldie.

Here's another especially for Cathy!

"True" Facts (http://www.dennydavis.net/poemfiles/traveltx.htm) about Texas



Armadillos love to dig holes under tomato plants.
Armadillos sleep in the middle of the road with their feet in the air.
"Backards" and "Forards" means I know everything about you.
"Coldbeer" is one word.
Country people don't have to buy a dog. City people drop them off at your gate in the middle of the night.
Fire ants consider your flesh as a picnic.
"Fixinto" is one word.
Graduating 1st in your class means you left in the 8th grade.
Green grass DOES burn.
If it grows, it sticks; if it crawls, it bites.
It is not a shopping cart, it is a buggy.
Nothing will kill a mesquite tree.
"Onced" and "Twiced" are words.
People actually grow and eat okra.
Raccoons will test your crop of melons and let you know when they are ripe.
Roadrunners don't say "Beep Beep."
Texans really don't have an accent.
The sound of coyotes howling at night only sounds good for the first couple of weeks.
A tank is a dirt hole in the ground that holds drinkin' water for your cows.
There are 10,000 types of spiders, and 10,001 live in Texas.
There are 5,000 types of snakes, and 4,998 live in Texas.
There are valid reasons for some people to put concertina wire around their house.
A tractor is NOT an all-terrain vehicle. They do get stuck.
When a buzzard sits on the fence and stares at you, it's time to go to the doctor.
When the world ends, only cockroaches and mesquite trees will survive.
The wind blows at 90 MPH from October 2 until July 15, then it stops totally.
You cannot find a country road without a curve from corner to corner.
You don't have to wear a watch because it doesn't matter what time it is.
You work until you're done or it's too dark to see.
Texans will laugh harder at this than anyone because they KNOW the facts are true!



I am a Texan, and I am so guilty of "fixinto." The armadillo in the middle of the road cracked me up. They actually have a souvenir in the Houston airport (Intercontinental, I think, though perhaps both) of a dead armadillo. So true!

Kitty27
12-05-2009, 11:06 PM
Ha! I'm Southern!


I used to be crazy over AB books. I was like a junkie. I bought them faithfully. My sister tried to get me off the stuff but I was hardcore. I couldn't stop myself from buying them! They were my crack.

Until the fateful day when I realized I had read 30,00 pages worth of furry threesomes and AB had became the equivalent of a truck stop hooker. Kolchak is the shiznit. I have all the episodes. I write evil vampires but they aren't "in" right now. Sigh.

BUT

LKH did open doors for urban fantasy and I can understand her being a bit miffed. I believe vampire authors are deranged. Look for me to have an online fit that will go down in Internet history one day.

If anybody deserves recognition it's LJ Smith. I read her books and loved them. She predates LKH,SMeyer and I'm glad she's getting some props.

swvaughn
12-05-2009, 11:46 PM
Look for me to have an online fit that will go down in Internet history one day.

Do let me know when you leap off that particular cliff. I love a good internet meltdown. :D

And don't worry! Vampires never go out of style. There are tons of people who prefer evil vampires to sparkly ones, or ones that can't seem to go ten minutes without screwing someone.

I don't feel qualified to comment on LKH's stuff, since I've only read bits and pieces of it here and there. I will say, though, this thread made me curious, and I ended up reading some of her blog, and taking in the first chapter of the latest Merry book she posted on her website.

So now I need some eye bleach. Thanks a lot, thread.

Kitty27
12-05-2009, 11:55 PM
Do let me know when you leap off that particular cliff. I love a good internet meltdown. :D

And don't worry! Vampires never go out of style. There are tons of people who prefer evil vampires to sparkly ones, or ones that can't seem to go ten minutes without screwing someone.

I don't feel qualified to comment on LKH's stuff, since I've only read bits and pieces of it here and there. I will say, though, this thread made me curious, and I ended up reading some of her blog, and taking in the first chapter of the latest Merry book she posted on her website.

So now I need some eye bleach. Thanks a lot, thread.


Lol,Sonya!

I will outdo them all! I have not yet begun to bring the lulz for my fellow writers!

Thanks for saying that. Sometimes I feel like nasty killer vamps will never be back in style.

The first six books were awesome. But as the series went on,AB became a total Mary Sue with a healthy dose of nympho. It just about broke my heart because I really loved the books.

scarletpeaches
12-05-2009, 11:57 PM
Bitch, please. You all know I was the one who mentioned becoming a vampire author specifically so I could go apeshit online.

Fo' teh LULZ.

Kitty27
12-06-2009, 12:10 AM
LOL,SP!


I don't what it is with vamp authors and hissy fits. Perhaps we should just stick to writing on our computers and NO internet. It leads to bad things.

Poor LKH,she does seem miffed.

Jess Haines
12-06-2009, 12:28 AM
What is it with people ragging on authors who write stuff with vampires? Huh? HUH?!!?! Do we have crazy written all over our foreheads or something?!?! I mean, really!






....(mostly) kidding! :D

Kitty27
12-06-2009, 12:36 AM
As my gran used to say,I am crazier than a s**t house rat.

I fool people all the time. Until they have an in-depth conversation with me. After careful research and many conversations,I pronounce vamp authors as bat s**t. I haven't met one yet who is,ahem,totally sane. After reading certain posts and I'm not saying any names,it is quite obvious that lunatics are running amok. My crazy peeps,I love you all.

It just gives us more character!

Gillhoughly
12-06-2009, 05:24 AM
I tried to find the excerpt on the blog and instead found a gallery page sporting pics of herself in leather and sometimes in a metalwork mask. The thumbnails made it look like a kid had randomly scribbled on the pics with a gold crayon.

Ooookay. Her blog/website, her rules. She can put up whatever she wants even if it does generate a W-T-F reaction. At least we've been spared the officially gone insane stuff (http://dearauthor.com/wordpress/2007/05/15/nyt-bestelling-author-laurell-k-hamilton-has-officially-lost-her-mind/) of her in bed with her spouse and PA and the bad photoshop work.

Talk about needing eye bleach. :eek:

swvaughn
12-06-2009, 06:44 AM
Oh noes! We do not speak of the pictures. Eek.

But here's a link to that first chapter (http://www.laurellkhamilton.org/Documents/Divine%20Misdemeanors%20Chapt%201.pdf) - if you're really, really sure you want to go there...

Let me know if you need to borrow my eye bleach. :D

MaryMumsy
12-06-2009, 07:08 AM
TOTALLY OFF TOPIC!!!

Rules for non-southern writers attempting to write about the south:



http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/icons/icon10.gif




I am trying to catch up after being off for a week with a horrible chest cold. This sent me into such a coughing fit I had to lie down. Not nice Gil, but so totally true.

MM
who spent several of her younger impressionable years in the south and/or Texas

Gillhoughly
12-06-2009, 07:29 AM
Sorry, MM--hope you feel better! My weapon of choice for colds is freezer-cold Jagermaster! Very soothing for a throat and cough.

Sonja, it's not to be. Nothing will open, and I'll take that as a hint from the PTB that I need to work on my own stuff. Not minding much. I couldn't get into the whole Fey Thing, though apparently Merry does. Often.

I'll stick with Prof. Tolkien's Hobbits and Elves. I know they do it, but I don't need details.

Unless it's Aragorn. I'm sure they call his sword "flame of the west" for a reason! :evil



Hubba-hubba!



http://www.freewebs.com/imlothmelui/aragorn.jpg

swvaughn
12-06-2009, 08:30 AM
Drat! I was hoping that someone else would have to share my pain...

But a little Viggo makes everything better. :D

Quossum
12-06-2009, 09:08 AM
Which kind of brings us back to the original topic, and that getting a TV series ain't necessarily a good thing for the integrity of one's characters, though it can be very good to one's checking account.

QFT. Look at all the changes in TrueBlood from Dead Til Dawn.

*
*
*
Spoilers follow, highlight to read!

Now, granted, IMHO the first season of TrueBlood was better than that first book--the added dimension to the brother's character, Tara's storyline (in the books she's a minor and extremely uninteresting character), Lafeyette, for heaven's sake! Best Character Ever! And in the books he's so minor that not only does he get murdered, but his murder is basically ignored while Sookie goes off on a huge tangent that takes practically the whole book, then the solution to his murder is a mere mention towards the end.

Season two of the show got more and more shaky as the totally new storylines went in bizarre directions, and, though I'm not sure it's jumped the shark quite yet...I don't think the TV series will take us as far as the books have gone.

But again on the checking account thing. I would never, ever have read those books, hadn't even heard of them, if it hadn't been for the TV series. Now I've bought every one and, though they do have certain flaws, I'll probably continue the series. They're great "car books." (I read mysteries to my husband when we drive anywhere. We're on All Together Dead now.)

--Q

Gillhoughly
12-06-2009, 11:42 AM
QFT. Look at all the changes in TrueBlood.

--Q

Um-- could you do a bit of editing on your post? Please???

Not everyone has read the books and that's a lot of spoilers I hope I will forget by the time I get to those stories.

MMcQuown
12-06-2009, 01:45 PM
In the midst of an urban fantasy trilogy, I got the idea for a related story with the classic titled badass blood-drinker. Same main characters, same setting (Seattle). Last time I was in Barnes & Noble at Halloween, I saw a table full of vampires stories by authors I'd never heard of. It seems one can't go wrong writing in that vein (or artery). So, who's handling urban fantasy writers these days?

Quossum
12-07-2009, 04:11 AM
Um-- could you do a bit of editing on your post? Please???

Not everyone has read the books and that's a lot of spoilers I hope I will forget by the time I get to those stories.

Mea culpa!

Everyone on this thread seemed so steeped in the UF genre that I *totally* didn't consider that. I assumed I was the last person in here to have read those books!

Spoiler font duly used now, and again, deep apologies if I managed to spoil anyone too terribly! :e2tomato:

--Q

Kitty27
12-07-2009, 05:50 AM
I tried to find the excerpt on the blog and instead found a gallery page sporting pics of herself in leather and sometimes in a metalwork mask. The thumbnails made it look like a kid had randomly scribbled on the pics with a gold crayon.

Ooookay. Her blog/website, her rules. She can put up whatever she wants even if it does generate a W-T-F reaction. At least we've been spared the officially gone insane stuff (http://dearauthor.com/wordpress/2007/05/15/nyt-bestelling-author-laurell-k-hamilton-has-officially-lost-her-mind/) of her in bed with her spouse and PA and the bad photoshop work.

Talk about needing eye bleach. :eek:



Oh my damn.