Purchasing a Healthcare Vote

[Robert Toy]

What does it cost to get a wavering senator to vote for health care reform?

http://blogs.abcnews.com/thenote/2009/11/the-100-million-health-care-vote.html

100 Million USD: read and weep

[MGraybosch]

What does it cost to get a wavering senator to vote for health care reform?

http://blogs.abcnews.com/thenote/2009/11/the-100-million-health-care-vote.html

100 Million USD: read and weep

Unfortunately, it's a hundred million in appropriations, not a direct bribe that would justify removing this filth from office.

[Robert Toy]

Unfortunately, it's a hundred million in appropriations, not a direct bribe that would justify removing this filth from office.
didn't suggest it as a direct bribe or "illegal", just immoral...but it did succeed in getting mary landrieu's vote.

Now they have to calculate the cost of Nelson and Lincoln’s votes

[MGraybosch]

didn't suggest it as a direct bribe or "illegal", just immoral...but it did succeed in getting mary landrieu's vote.

And that's the problem, isn't it? That it's merely immoral, and not something that could be used to drive Mary Landrieau out of office.

[robeiae]

Which is worse: letting your vote get "bought," or knowingly fashioning legislation to buy it?

[Don]

Which is worse: letting your vote get "bought," or knowingly fashioning legislation to buy it?
I don't see a nickle's worth of difference.

This is just another example of how our government actually works, vs. the rainbow and unicorn version that people keep expecting to surface when we elect "the right people."

Few "real" crooks manage $100 million in a single heist; it takes collusion on a massive scale, and a "legal" blanket to throw over the whole sordid mess.

In questions of power then let no more be heard of confidence in man but bind him down from mischief by the chains of the Constitution.

[SPMiller]

Pork ain't nothin new.

[Bird of Prey]

Buy the vote and get something passed that actually benefits average American citizens . . .remember, Americans?? Did they every actually matter, or were they always the fodder of war, egomaniacal politicians and the greedy beyond redemption??

[William Haskins]

ah, how machiavellian!

what if 100,000 children would be spared starvation if you buried 100 puppies up to their scruffy little necks and ran over them with a lawn mower? could we count on you?

after all, the end justifies the means, yes?

[Wayne K]

I am told the section applies to exactly one state: Louisiana, the home of moderate Democrat Mary Landrieu, who has been playing hard to get on the health care bill.

He doesn't quote a source. Am I missing something?

[Bird of Prey]

ah, how machiavellian!

what if 100,000 children would be spared starvation if you buried 100 puppies up to their scruffy little necks and ran over them with a lawn mower? could we count on you?

after all, the end justifies the means, yes?

We're not talking about scruffy puppies, we're talking about meaningless - and I mean meaningless - pieces of paper. The greenback doesn't have a heart beat in and of itself, does it??

[William Haskins]

no. but in fairness, it's hard to roll a puppy up and snort cocaine through it.

[Bird of Prey]

no. but in fairness, it's hard to roll a puppy up and snort cocaine through it.

Ah, but then some old dogs are always up to new tricks, aren't they. . . .

[William Haskins]

but seriously, you can make an emotional choice that buying a vote for what you to believe is a noble cause is okay; but you would forfeit the right to condemn it when it's an issue you abhor.

so you'd bite your lip down the road if it's a repub congress buying a vote for renewing the patriot act or something along those lines?

[Bird of Prey]

but seriously, you can make an emotional choice that buying a vote for what you to believe is a noble cause is okay; but you would forfeit the right to condemn it when it's an issue you abhor.

so you'd bite your lip down the road if it's a repub congress buying a vote for renewing the patriot act or something along those lines?

Look, I give up on ethical politics for the time being. At this juncture, Americans are so desperate and America so corrupt, it's no different than paying a border guard a bribe to make a buck under the table. I am serious when I say that America is truly controlled by scum. . . .

[MGraybosch]

Buy the vote and get something passed that actually benefits average American citizens . . .remember, Americans?? Did they every actually matter, or were they always the fodder of war, egomaniacal politicians and the greedy beyond redemption??

I find your lack of cynicism disturbing. The individual never matters unless those in power wish to take from him his property or his life for their own ends.

[Bird of Prey]

I find your lack of cynicism disturbing. The individual never matters unless those in power wish to take from him his property or his life for their own ends.

Matthew, if you have any meaningful suggestions as to how to enact policies that benefit the average American citizen, I'd appreciate it. I know your tongue is in your cheek here, but it's - you know - not helpful. The esoteric only goes so far. . .which also goes for Don, but then he knows it. . . .

[Magdalen]

I've developed a trifling case of cynicism this past year, but I've been told if I don't scratch it, it won't spread. So whenever I feel a twitch coming on, I picture myself sitting in my chair in my house on my street in my city in my state in my country on my planet in my solar system in my galaxy of the known universe; at that point, the fact that I exist at all impresses the hell out of me and the urge to scratch the itch usually passes.

[Death Wizard]

These comments are typical examples of the hatred that is ruining this country. Two sides hating each other, more determined to ruin the other than to advance anything constructive. It's a morass of empire-destroying proportions.

And don't hide behind the independent banner. Independents are no better than the others: liberal independents and conservative ones; nothing in between.

[MGraybosch]

Matthew, if you have any meaningful suggestions as to how to enact policies that benefit the average American citizen, I'd appreciate it.

Get rid of health insurance entirely. Get rid of managed care. Find a way to make retainer medicine (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BJK/is_3_16/ai_n13454905/) affordable to the average citizen without driving physicians out of business.

[MGraybosch]

And don't hide behind the independent banner. Independents are no better than the others: liberal independents and conservative ones; nothing in between.

Real independents say "a plague on both your houses" when it comes to "liberals" and "conservatives". :)

[Don]

Get rid of health insurance entirely. Get rid of managed care. Find a way to make retainer medicine (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BJK/is_3_16/ai_n13454905/) affordable to the average citizen without driving physicians out of business.
You mean return to actual patient-centered health care, like I grew up with? But how will all the insurance peddlers, treatment gatekeepers, and paperwork shufflers that have been added to the system since then get paid? Not to mention all the government bureaucrats who make their living rewriting all the regulations that doctors and hospitals have to follow, and all the employees of those doctors and hospitals who do nothing but keep up with regulatory changes, change their operation manuals, and retrain and retrain the rest of the staff everytime a new directive comes out of DC?

Hmm... ya think if we eliminated all those sales commissions and paper-shufflers' wages we might actually make a dent in the cost of healthcare?

[MGraybosch]

You mean return to actual patient-centered health care, like I grew up with? But how will all the insurance peddlers, treatment gatekeepers, and paperwork shufflers that have been added to the system since then get paid? Not to mention all the government bureaucrats who make their living rewriting all the regulations that doctors and hospitals have to follow, and all the employees of those doctors and hospitals who do nothing but keep up with regulatory changes, change their operation manuals, and retrain and retrain the rest of the staff everytime a new directive comes out of DC?

Fuck 'em. Fuck each and every one of these worthless functionaries in the ass with a Saturn V rocket and no lube. It's only fair, after what they've been doing to everybody else for a living.

[Don]

These comments are typical examples of the hatred that is ruining this country. Two sides hating each other, more determined to ruin the other than to advance anything constructive. It's a morass of empire-destroying proportions.

And don't hide behind the independent banner. Independents are no better than the others: liberal independents and conservative ones; nothing in between.
Pro-gay rights
Pro-choice
Anti-war
Pro-immigration
Anti-pollution
Anti-corporation
Pro-school choice
Anti-drug war
Anti-illegal immigration
Anti-free(managed) trade agreements

Liberal or conservative? Or is "you're either with us or against us" really the limits of the political spectrum?

We report, you decide. :D

[Kisatchie]

I'm from Louisiana, and I received an email from Senator Landrieu linking to her exact response to the health care bill. Here is the link:

http://landrieu.senate.gov/releases/09/2009B21A32.html

She says:

"After a thorough review of the bill, as I said, over the last 2 1/2 days, which included many lengthy discussions, I have decided that there are enough significant reforms and safeguards in this bill to move forward, but much more work needs to be done before I can support this effort."

[Bird of Prey]

Fuck 'em. Fuck each and every one of these worthless functionaries in the ass with a Saturn V rocket and no lube. It's only fair, after what they've been doing to everybody else for a living.


Oh. Lol. . .well, um, in principle anyway, I agree . . .

[Magdalen]

Get rid of health insurance entirely. Get rid of managed care. Find a way to make retainer medicine (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BJK/is_3_16/ai_n13454905/) affordable to the average citizen without driving physicians out of business.

Read most of the article on retainer med (several annoying typos in it, BTW) and it is an interesting idea. I do support your initial statement, i.e. "Gid rid of insurance", with the caveat that it could remain in a downsized form (hey every other industry has had to downsize, why not med. insurance?) to provide what it originally intended, which was the benefit of additional medical coverage to certain groups via employer-based participation. As for the rest of us, I'm wondering if it would make sense to have a state-administered voucher system that would process the (greatly reduced) paperwork connected to the various procedures resulting from hospital stays and specialist interventions. If the costs of regular office visits and preventative health measures (including prescriptions for diabetes, high BP and yes, viagra) were slashed by half or better, I think they would be affordable to most working class families and not require a third-party pay structure. We've been taken for suckers by the fee-for-service third-party pay system and enough is enough. I personally feel that the current bill not only fails to address these issues, it in fact exaccerbates them. So there's my suggestion. Allow the states to expand the health-care service programs that many already have in place for low-income families and children, but remove that distinction (low-income) and make it a program that each state (possibly allow smaller states to combine efforts) administers.* If you get sick or need services out-of-state, there would be additional paperwork, but a system of exchange points could be set up. I shudder to think of the potential unweildiness of a Federal-level health-care program, but I think it could be manageable at a state level.

ETA: * run it through expanded Secretary of State offices. Proof of participation could be a sticker on your driver's license, just like the tab on your license plate.

[mscelina]

Pro-gay rights
Pro-choice
Anti-war
Pro-immigration
Anti-pollution
Anti-corporation
Pro-school choice
Anti-drug war
Anti-legal immigration
Anti-free(managed) trade agreements

Liberal or conservative? Or is "you're either with us or against us" really the limits of the political spectrum?

We report, you decide. :D

Pro gay rights
Pro choice
Pro military
Pro immigration
Anti corporation
Pro environmentalism
Pro educational equality (that means school choice)
Pro drug legalization/regulation
Anti government interference in the private sector
Anti PORK
Pro term limits
Pro economic responsibility
Pro the right to change my mind
Anti being told what to think or HOW I think...

No matter how you stack it, no two independents are the same, are they?

But by all means, let's keep those broad generalizations coming. They're always so much fun.

[robeiae]

Pro freedom
Anti slavery
Pro reality
Anti dopey-visions-of-social-and-economic-justice

[MGraybosch]

Individual rights uber alles.

[robeiae]

Arbeit macht frei.

[Williebee]

I'm thinking the $100 million is just the initial price tag. I'm also thinking the idea that the revision could be boiled down to the word "Louisiana" is, basically, flame bait for political factions and interest groups.

Unless I missed it, this revision doesn't have a deadline, or a date that qualification ends.

In other words, Louisiana/Katrina may be the cause, but it isn't the only potential beneficiary. Recent history shows that the gulf states are the most likely affected, it is just a matter of which storm goes which way to make Delaware, Maryland, R.I., the Carolinas, or Hawaii the state(s) in question.

The question(s) it brings forth are "are these increased Federal Medicaid subsidies in states declared Federal Disaster Areas a needed thing to do? a good idea? And is it a good enough idea to warrant this revision?"

RANT/ Just think, if we were talking actual National Healthcare this revision would have never come up. /RANT

[mscelina]

RANT/ Just think, if we were talking actual National Healthcare this revision would have never come up. /RANT

QFT.

[Bird of Prey]

Pro practical
Anti pie-in-the-sky we should stand on principles when it comes to politics because it's never going to happen
Anti unbridled greed
Pro corporate regulation
Anti two party system but it doesn't matter either because Americans for the most part want a two party system

[William Haskins]

pro-bribery of public officials
anti-personal responsibility
pro-moral relativism when it comes to unethical behavior for an agenda i support, with the reserved right to call it fascism when the other side does it.

[mscelina]

pro-bribery of public officials
anti-personal responsibility
pro-moral relativism when it comes to unethical behavior for an agenda i support, with the reserved right to call it fascism when the other side does it.



Oh no! I'm seeing double.

[robeiae]

I'm thinking the $100 million is just the initial price tag. I'm also thinking the idea that the revision could be boiled down to the word "Louisiana" is, basically, flame bait for political factions and interest groups.

Unless I missed it, this revision doesn't have a deadline, or a date that qualification ends.

In other words, Louisiana/Katrina may be the cause, but it isn't the only potential beneficiary. Recent history shows that the gulf states are the most likely affected, it is just a matter of which storm goes which way to make Delaware, Maryland, R.I., the Carolinas, or Hawaii the state(s) in question.

The pertinent portion (http://radioviceonline.com/senate-health-care-bill-provides-100-million-to-louisiana/) of the revision:


(2) In this subsection, the term disaster-recovery FMAP adjustment State means a State that is one of the 50 States or the District of Columbia, for which, at any time during the preceding 7 fiscal years, the President has declared a major disaster under section 401 of the Robert T. Stafford Disaster Relief and Emergency Assistance Act and determined as a result of such disaster that every county or parish in the State warrant individual and public assistance or public assistance from the Federal Government under such Act...
[my boldface]
I don't see where the definition extends to ANY future states, at all. It's only applicable to those that have had a "major disaster" of the defined sort in the last seven years. That pretty much makes it a one-time shot, and the only apparent beneficiary is La.

[William Haskins]

The pertinent portion (http://radioviceonline.com/senate-health-care-bill-provides-100-million-to-louisiana/) of the revision:

I don't see where the definition extends to ANY future states, at all. It's only applicable to those that have had a "major disaster" of the defined sort in the last seven years. That pretty much makes it a one-time shot, and the only apparent beneficiary is La.

yep. it'll be spun and candy-coated, but it is what it is.

and the thing is, all landrieu had to do was vote to open it to debate. if she becomes a key part of the math later, who knows what she'll get.

by all rights, this bribe should be added to the published cost of the health care bill.

[Williebee]

Well, yeah, but is that 7 years for the life of this bill? The life of the health care program? I'm thinking there's a couple different ways this could become open ended.

Either way, I'm not sure I can fault Ms. Landrieu for "getting some" for her constituents, but I certainly see fault in the administration making the deal. The whole thing just casts more shade on the shadiness of the bill.

[Bird of Prey]

pro-bribery of public officials
anti-personal responsibility
pro-moral relativism when it comes to unethical behavior for an agenda i support, with the reserved right to call it fascism when the other side does it.


Finally. . .a realist, except you forgot the part that reserves the right to call it socialism - maybe communism - when government tries to regulate corporations that are raping the country. . . .

[robeiae]

Well, yeah, but is that 7 years for the life of this bill? The life of the health care program? I'm thinking there's a couple different ways this could become open ended.
Preceding seven years. It's very specific. It means the seven years preceding the passage of the bill.

[Williebee]

So, you're saying, if they can keep this thing in negotiation/debate/revisions for another few years, La. gets nothing. :)

[Bird of Prey]

Senator Cements Role at Heart of Debate

By CARL HULSE
Published: November 21, 2009
WASHINGTON — No sooner had Senator Blanche Lincoln promised to deliver one crucial vote in support of a health care overhaul than she threatened to withhold the next one.

“I'm thinking about the 450,000 Arkansans who have no health insurance,” Senator Blanche Lincoln said on Saturday.

Mrs. Lincoln, Democrat of Arkansas, said that more than $3 million in health care advocacy advertisements aimed at her had already been broadcast in Arkansas. But she insisted Saturday that her position on health care would not be shaped by political considerations.

“I’m thinking about the 450,000 Arkansans who have no health insurance,” she said as she lent her support to an initial procedural step in the most closely watched floor speech of the day. “I’m not thinking about my re-election, the legacy of a president or whether Democrats or Republicans are going to be able to claim victory in winning this debate.”

Yet the political implications are inescapable. Of the swing-state Democrats struggling with the health care issue, Mrs. Lincoln, a 49-year-old mother of twins who is married to a physician, is one of the few set to be on the ballot next year. Republicans are lining up to oppose her in a state where President Obama performed badly in the 2008 election.

Mrs. Lincoln was the Democrat whose vote on opening the debate was most in doubt, though most expected that she would ultimately side with her Democratic colleagues.

Senator Mary Landrieu of Louisiana, who revealed her position shortly before Mrs. Lincoln did, was considered safely in the Democratic fold, particularly after $100 million in added Medicaid money for her state was included in the measure. Republicans have nicknamed that provision the Louisiana Purchase.

As the final Democrat to reveal her position, Mrs. Lincoln helped Republicans define her as the decisive 60th vote to move the health care debate forward. The National Republican Senatorial Committee immediately issued a press release trying to make her responsible for the bill.

“The debate wouldn’t have happened without her vote and I think that will be an issue,” said Senator John Cornyn of Texas, chairman of the Senate Republican campaign group.

The health care fight has come at a time when Mrs. Lincoln’s influence is increasing in the Senate. A committee shuffle after the death of Senator Edward M. Kennedy elevated her to chairwoman of the Agriculture Committee, a position that could allow her to protect her agriculture-heavy state.

But the health care fight has been divisive at home; House Democrats from the state split on their version of the bill earlier this month. Senator Mark Pryor, a fellow Democrat from Arkansas, was re-elected last year and has managed to escape much of the frenzy.

Some Democrats and other observers say they believe Mrs. Lincoln can make a case that her central role in the debate is a positive development in a state where people lack health insurance at a higher rate than the national average. The Democrats’ bill would offer subsidies to low- and moderate-income people to help them buy insurance.

Ray Hanley, who was the Medicaid director in Arkansas from 1986 to 2003, said that “in a poor state like Arkansas, where nearly 500,000 people are uninsured, many would benefit from the subsidies.” . . .http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/22/health/policy/22lincoln.html?partner=rss&emc=rss&src=ig


So the question is: so what?? It's really not about buying a vote; it's still about the uninsured. . .pushed in the tradition of American politics. . . .

[robeiae]

So, you're saying, if they can keep this thing in negotiation/debate/revisions for another few years, La. gets nothing. :)
That would be swell, but they'll just change it to "nine years," if that happens...

[William Haskins]

So the question is: so what?? It's really not about buying a vote; it's still about the uninsured. . .pushed in the tradition of American politics. . . .

fine and dandy; again, as long as you have no beef when, at some point in the future, the republicans do the same thing, say, for a key vote on a war resolution or for restricting roe v wade, trumpet it all you want.

[Bird of Prey]

fine and dandy; again, as long as you have no beef when, at some point in the future, the republicans do the same thing, say, for a key vote on a war resolution or for restricting roe v wade, trumpet it all you want.
Lol!! I'm not worried. The Republicans just go to war anyway. Their ploy is not to declare it. In fact, that's everybody's ploy. And restricting Roe v Wade is already happening, right? Abortion isn't included in public option coverage, right? Only there, it's really about the court. . . .

[William Haskins]

Lol!! I'm not worried.

i'm sure.

we'll see if your ethics retain their elasticity.

[SPMiller]

Seems to me to be designed to cut NY out of the deal.

[Bird of Prey]

i'm sure.

we'll see if your ethics retain their elasticity.

Ethics?? You think this is about ethics??

American politics isn't about ETHICS. For crissake, Jefferson owned slaves. How far back to you need to go before it dawns on you that American politics isn't about "ethics," it's about taking a position that benefits the elected official and/or the elected official's voters - because he/she likes the cushy job - and then stacking the deck.

[Robert Toy]

Just for info, the price tag is 300 Million, not 100 Million

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/11/21/AR2009112102272_pf.html