Recipe Rights?

[mkcbunny]

I'm not even sure this is the right forum to post this question in, but here goes.

I want to include a recipe in my novel. It was shown to me by a friend nearly 20 years ago and subsequently altered a bit by me over the years. I am pretty sure it was something he made up himself. It was never in print; he just concocted it in front of me. I have no idea where he is now, or how to contact him.

Is it wrong or in violation of any copy rights to print the recipe? If I can't find him, should I credit him in the credits? If I do credit him, would that possibly be a problem having not obtained his permission?

He's not a chef or connected to the food industry. There's no chance that it's something that could be considered his by virtue of his professional domain. It was just a household recipe that he made for me that I've been making ever since and want to include for reasons I won't burden ya'll with.

What are the guidelines with recipes? Are there any? Do I have to change what it's called? I don't even know if what I call it now is what he called it. Thanks.

[Shadow Otenaki]

No, I don't think there would be any violations, as he didn't exactly have it copyrighted, did he? Just credit him. Or dedicate the book to him, too. hehe.

[mdin]

I'm not a lawyer, so I could be way off, but I'm pretty certain you can't copyright a recipe. They way I understand it is you can copyright a book of recipes, which protects the text and the layout of the book, but the individual recipes themselves can't be copywritten. In other words, if you can't the text of the instructions or put it into your own words, you're free to use it.

Here:

http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl122.html

[mkcbunny]

http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl122.html

Thanks for the link!

Does anyone think it's uncool to use it? I think I would credit him somewhere for it. I'd just feel better doing that.

[D.J.]

Thanks for the link!

Does anyone think it's uncool to use it? I think I would credit him somewhere for it. I'd just feel better doing that.

I have written cookbooks that I did myself and never tried to get published any other way. They were pretty successful but I went into trying to market one of my products, so my energies went there and I stopped printing the books. I "copyrighted" the books but was told that legally you only have to change the recipe by I think it was 30% for it to be yours. This is obviously not by much when it is a short recipe.
This was a concern for me and I met with $350 - $450 an hour patent attorneys, etc., when beginning to market my product.
Is the recipe crucial to the storyline? Can you just alter a bit and then have no worries? Best of luck!

[mkcbunny]

I have written cookbooks that I did myself and never tried to get published any other way. They were pretty successful but I went into trying to market one of my products, so my energies went there and I stopped printing the books. I "copyrighted" the books but was told that legally you only have to change the recipe by I think it was 30% for it to be yours. This is obviously not by much when it is a short recipe.
This was a concern for me and I met with $350 - $450 an hour patent attorneys, etc., when beginning to market my product.
Is the recipe crucial to the storyline? Can you just alter a bit and then have no worries? Best of luck!
The recipe only has a handful of ingredients. I can change one and add an extra. But the two base ingredients that give it its name are pretty much set. It's as if you made up, say, peanut butter and banana sandwiches. You can add to them or change the bread, but you can't change the peanut butter or banana. And what else are you gonna call it, without making up something less descriptive? It's a peanut butter and banana sandwich.

It's not crucial, but it helps to develop one of the characters.

[jules]

I'm not a lawyer either, but I do make a habit of trying to understand copyright law and what it actually covers and what it doesn't. I'm pretty sure that recipes aren't covered: they are simply not the kind of thing that can be. The expression of a recipe, how it is written down and the words that are used (and possibly even the precise measurement of the ingredients involved -- although only to the extent that this isn't dominated by the chemistry of cooking them) can be copyrighted, but a recipe itself can't.

(As an aside: in some countries, recipes can apparently be patented. There was a flourishing industry in Japan some time ago, with people importing recipes that hadn't previously been published in Japan and patenting them, so that if any restaurant wanted to use them, they'd have to pay a licence fee... article about the craze here (http://www.asiaweek.com/asiaweek/magazine/99/1119/food.patents.html))

[D.J.]

I'm not a lawyer either, but I do make a habit of trying to understand copyright law and what it actually covers and what it doesn't. I'm pretty sure that recipes aren't covered: they are simply not the kind of thing that can be. The expression of a recipe, how it is written down and the words that are used (and possibly even the precise measurement of the ingredients involved -- although only to the extent that this isn't dominated by the chemistry of cooking them) can be copyrighted, but a recipe itself can't.

(As an aside: in some countries, recipes can apparently be patented. There was a flourishing industry in Japan some time ago, with people importing recipes that hadn't previously been published in Japan and patenting them, so that if any restaurant wanted to use them, they'd have to pay a licence fee... article about the craze here (http://www.asiaweek.com/asiaweek/magazine/99/1119/food.patents.html))

What I learned was pretty much what you have said. As far as patenting, I was told that if you can prove you have something very unique that usually isn't used in a similar recipe, you could possibly tie it up for a while as "patent pending." This would give you a chance to get your product into marketing possibly before the actual "rejection" of the patent gets back. Then hopefully your item would be the most popular one in the sense that it was the first one out and people would be used to it. (One theory.)
There are some recipes that can be patented but it depends upon the ingredients and the methods used. One attorney told me to get very specific to almost a ludicrous level and then you have more of chance of obtaining one. Then others can alter it and you're back to square one. We chose not to waste the time and money.
Back to use of the recipe in the book, it sounds like the couple of changes you suggested would be enough. Of course as everyone has stated, I too am not an attorney. I'm just going on what I "think" I learned by my experience I described in my earlier post. LOL!

[maestrowork]

Just credit him. I think he will be pleased (wherever he is) and you will have your a$$ covered...

[mkcbunny]

Thanks everyone.

[Jamesaritchie]

Looking around the net, it seems directions in a recipe can be copyrighted, but the ingredient list part of the recipe can't be. This makes sense to me. Copyright law says any original writing over four words long can be copyrighted.

A simple ingredients list wouldn't qualify for this, but instructions/directions, plus any other notes attached to a recipe would qualify.

And if the igredient list is fancied up to include original, non-generic directions, this part can be copyrighted, as well.

Many recipes also have their titles trademarked.

It seems many cookbooks and magazines have their recipes written in such a way that they do fall under copyright law, and you need permission to reprint them.

[Saanen]

I've published recipes before and my editor has never seemed concerned with anything except whether the recipes actually work.

I know that most "new" recipes are actually adaptations of other recipes, so by changing your friend's over the years you've actually made the recipe your own. It would be gracious to thank him in the credits, but I don't think there's any legal requirement to do so or to secure his permission.