Northwest Airlines pilots miss airport

[blacbird]

Not sure if this says more about the pilots or about Minneapolis:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33436497/ns/travel-news/?gt1=43001

caw

[ColoradoGuy]

Great. I frequently fly NorthWorst (now Delta) from Denver or Albuquerque to Minneapolis. Now I've got something else to worry about -- ending up in Milwaukee.

[StephanieFox]

It says nothing about the bright and shining metropolitan area of Minneapolis and St. Paul. It says a lot about Northwest Airlines (now Delta) whose planes fly about 10 stories above my house as they land. Perhaps it is better that these pilots flew over the airport instead of missing a runway as they landed.

[GregB]

It says nothing about the bright and shining metropolitan area of Minneapolis and St. Paul.

::looks out window::

I've apparently been teleported to some other city, one gray, and dreary, and cold.

;)

[clintl]

Great. I frequently fly NorthWorst (now Delta) from Denver or Albuquerque to Minneapolis. Now I've got something else to worry about -- ending up in Milwaukee.

Or maybe Yellowknife.

[blacbird]

Just for information, here in Anchorage, Alaska (latitude 61 degrees north) today it was about 55 F with cloudy skies, a little spat of rain here or there, but generally entirely pleasant. We've actually had an "Indian summer" up here this year, probably the first ever. I remember numerous years when, by now, we've had multiple feet of snow on the ground.

Just thought I'd mention it.

caw

[Fran]

I'm going to Minneapolis in December, blac. First you introduce me to Michelle Bachmann and now stories about pilots missing the runway there. You hate me, don't you?

;)

[Noah Body]

Great, and another Delta flight landed on a taxiway at Atlanta (http://www.wctv.tv/home/headlines/65543322.html#) not too long ago. I guess they thought the illuminated runway was just too wide for them.

For my money, it doesn't matter whether the Northworst pilots were asleep or arguing. They weren't doing their jobs in controlled airspace over a populated area, and it took them an hour to figure that out. They need to be getting in the unemployment line really soon, because there's simply no excuse. (And it seems like they were napping, because they didn't answer the company HF, which rings like an elephant having an orgasm. I'm not sure why I would find the terminal control phase of the flight as the perfect time to catch some shut-eye, but I'm not a high-paid airliner pilot.)

[Freelancer]

What the heck did they do in the cockpit and what all the passengers did? Sleeping? It's almost impossible to miss an airport, it's impossible to realize you're in one hour late and you should have been landed already and it's impossible to realize you're lost. And what is also impossible, the passengers did not realized the plane should have been landed already. This story stinks and not tells the truth at all.

[GregB]

What the heck did they do in the cockpit

Don't ask, don't tell.

[Freelancer]

Don't ask, don't tell.
:D Yeah, basic rule. I believe I don't want to know what is really happened.

[icerose]

I find it hilarious (since I'm on the ground and was not on the airplane) that they could miss the airport and not realize it for an hour.

Though obviously there are some lies being told, I mean really, a heated discussion doesn't make you completely forget that you're supposed to be landing for an entire hour!

I have never flown in my life and as more and more of these stories come out, I'm not so sure I want to.

[Julie Worth]

And it seems like they were napping, because they didn't answer the company HF, which rings like an elephant having an orgasm.

Now that you bring it up, perhaps there was sex involved.

[veinglory]

but I'm not a high-paid airliner pilot.)

Pilots are many things, but well-paid is not one of them.

[Freelancer]

Now that you bring it up, perhaps there was sex involved.Yeah, I thought for the same first as relationships between pilots and stewardesses are relatively common.

[StephanieFox]

::looks out window::

I've apparently been teleported to some other city, one gray, and dreary, and cold.

;)

You've never been here in the spring, summer or fall when the parks are filled with music, the sparkling lakes with sailboats, the streets with people and where the arts flourish. But, I'll agree that it is cold the other nine months of the year.

[StephanieFox]

I'm going to Minneapolis in December, blac. First you introduce me to Michelle Bachmann and now stories about pilots missing the runway there. You hate me, don't you?

;)

In DECEMBER!!!???? Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha! At least we have the skyways. If you are staying downtown, you can walk for miles, indoors, a story above the street.

Bring a coat. I mean a coat, not one of those light little jackets that people from warmer climates call a coat.

(Snicker...snicker....snicker.)

p.s.: Michelle Bachmann is from south and west of Mpls, almost in Wisconsin. The Twin Cities are lefty cities.

[StephanieFox]

I just looked out the window. Snow! Ack!

[ColoradoGuy]

You've never been here in the spring, summer or fall when the parks are filled with music, the sparkling lakes with sailboats, the streets with people and where the arts flourish.
. . . the raptor-sized mosquitoes . . .

[Fran]

In DECEMBER!!!???? Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha! At least we have the skyways. If you are staying downtown, you can walk for miles, indoors, a story above the street.

I know - I'm mad! But December's the only time that suits me and my boyfriend. That's assuming I don't get dumped in some other state because the airport's frozen solid. :D

I love the sound of the skyways! And I have a massive floor-length winter coat I bought in France last year. (Oooooh, get me!) I think I'll get another coat to go on top of it just in case. ;)

[Diana Hignutt]

I'm going to Minneapolis in December, blac. First you introduce me to Michelle Bachmann and now stories about pilots missing the runway there. You hate me, don't you?

;)

Okay, help us out here. Why, exactly are you going to Minneapolis in December again?

[clintl]

I just looked out the window. Snow! Ack!

It's supposed to be around 80 degrees here today.

[Fran]

Okay, help us out here. Why, exactly are you going to Minneapolis in December again?

My boyfriend lives there. He needs a visa to come here, so it made more sense for me to go visit him. Granted, visiting in December doesn't make sense, but it's our only opportunity.

I'm going KLM anyway. :D

[StephanieFox]

I know - I'm mad! But December's the only time that suits me and my boyfriend. That's assuming I don't get dumped in some other state because the airport's frozen solid. :D

I love the sound of the skyways! And I have a massive floor-length winter coat I bought in France last year. (Oooooh, get me!) I think I'll get another coat to go on top of it just in case. ;)

#1: We know how to deal with cold and snow up here, so the airport won't be a problem. You'll probably fly over my house. Look for a big ash tree, a brown roof and the bulldog in the back yard. Be sure to wave.

#2: While those in Alaska keep trying to point out that it's not so cold up there (to no avail) those of us in Minnesota like to frighten tourists and newcomers with igloo tales. It's probably not going to be that bad. (Probably. I'm not making promises. I've had vodka left on the back porch to chill actually freeze solid.)

#3: December really isn't that bad, as winter months go. The end of Jan. and Feb. are the coldest, March has the most snow. Early winter is usually not overcast (like it is where you are) so the sky is bright blue and the air crisp. This is supposed to be a mild winter, so you make luck out. Bring the ooo-la-la coat anyway. And gloves.

[blacbird]

#1: We know how to deal with cold and snow up here, so the airport won't be a problem.

The Minneapolis Airport is a problem in any weather. But not because of the weather. I've never flown through there when the terminal wasn't under some form of major construction mess (and I've flown through there a lot). By now, the "Terminal Construction" signs probably have been carved in granite, like gravestones. At that airport, "Terminal Construction" obviously means "We're gonna keep constructing this place until you die."

caw

[StephanieFox]

The Minneapolis Airport is a problem in any weather. But not because of the weather. I've never flown through there when the terminal wasn't under some form of major construction mess (and I've flown through there a lot). By now, the "Terminal Construction" signs probably have been carved in granite, like gravestones. At that airport, "Terminal Construction" obviously means "We're gonna keep constructing this place until you die."

caw
Granted! You'll land just fine, but once off the plane, you'll will have to work your way through the terminal maze to get out.

[Fran]

You people are SCARING me! :tongue

Still, as long as I manage to avoid the several circles of hell and abandoned hope that is Heathrow Airport I'll consider myself to be doing well.

[clintl]

Something tells me this just got a little more serious for the pilots.

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/16s-prepared-shoot-wayward-plane/story?id=8900171&cid=ESPNheadline

[blacbird]

Hope these guys are skilled at flipping burgers.

caw

[benbradley]

It says nothing about the bright and shining metropolitan area of Minneapolis and St. Paul. It says a lot about Northwest Airlines (now Delta) whose planes fly about 10 stories above my house as they land. Perhaps it is better that these pilots flew over the airport instead of missing a runway as they landed.
You must be referring to this story (someone linked to another article on it, but this one has more info):
Lucky escape for passengers after Delta pilots land on taxi-way in Atlanta
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article6883583.ece
I find it hilarious (since I'm on the ground and was not on the airplane) that they could miss the airport and not realize it for an hour.

Though obviously there are some lies being told, I mean really, a heated discussion doesn't make you completely forget that you're supposed to be landing for an entire hour!

I have never flown in my life and as more and more of these stories come out, I'm not so sure I want to.
I haven't flown often, but one time was a flight on an MD-88, only a few weeks after this incident:
On January 31, 2000, Alaska Airlines Flight 261 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alaska_Airlines_Flight_261), an MD-83, crashed in the Pacific Ocean (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacific_Ocean), due to loss of horizontal stabilizer control.<sup class="reference" id="cite_ref-NTSB_summary_12-0">[13] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McDonnell_Douglas_MD-80#cite_note-NTSB_summary-12)</sup> All 88 people on board were killed. Following the crash, the acme (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acme_thread_form) nut and jackscrew recovered from the aircraft were found to be excessively worn<sup class="reference" id="cite_ref-jackscrew-worn_13-0">[14] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McDonnell_Douglas_MD-80#cite_note-jackscrew-worn-13)</sup> and found to be the cause of the crash due to inadequate maintenance. The FAA ordered airlines to inspect and lubricate the jackscrew more frequently.<sup class="reference" id="cite_ref-FAA-AD-2000-15-15_14-0">[15] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McDonnell_Douglas_MD-80#cite_note-FAA-AD-2000-15-15-14)</sup>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McDonnell_Douglas_MD-80

The actual statistical risks are MUCH lower than driving or riding in an automobile, but I think the perceived lack of control of an airplane passenger makes it scarier. I find it interesting how perception and fact can be so much at odds with each other.
What the heck did they do in the cockpit and what all the passengers did? Sleeping? It's almost impossible to miss an airport, it's impossible to realize you're in one hour late and you should have been landed already and it's impossible to realize you're lost. And what is also impossible, the passengers did not realized the plane should have been landed already. This story stinks and not tells the truth at all.
I think you're missing a few "not"s there - I surely would have wondered and worried why the flight was taking an extra hour. Just one worriesome thought is the plane running out of fuel and crash landing somewhere while the pilot and copilot argue (or sleep or do "whatever"). That has happened.

I hear many or most flights have Internet access nowadays. Here's some fun reading for flying (http://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Risks).

[rugcat]

Actually, I can understand this.

I was once on my way home in San Francisco and a great song came on the car radio. I got so wrapped up I drove right past my exit, went across the Bay Bridge, and only realized I'd missed my street when I reached Sacramento.

It could happen.

[blacbird]

That's how I wound up in Alaska. I was aiming for Montana, and just lost track of time.

caw

[StephanieFox]

Perhaps that's how the Gov. of SC wound up in Argentina.

[icerose]

This just got to the next level of fishy for me.

The first officer of the Northwest Airlines jet that missed its destination by 150 miles says he and the captain were not sleeping or arguing in the cockpit but he wouldn't explain their lapse in response and the detour.

"It was not a serious event, from a safety issue," pilot Richard Cole said late Friday in front of his Salem, Ore., home. "I would tell you more, but I've already told you way too much."


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091024/ap_on_bi_ge/us_northwest_airport_overflown

He already said too much? What is it top secret? If it was serious enough to ready jets to shoot it down, then it can't be as common as the pilot is trying to make it out to me. So now I'm more suspicious than ever.

[veinglory]

And WTF, some planes don't have cockpit voice recorders??

[clintl]

It has one, but it's an older model with one that only records the last half hour. Apparently, they were back in contact with air traffic controllers by the time the time there is surviving recorded material.

[Diana Hignutt]

My boyfriend lives there. He needs a visa to come here, so it made more sense for me to go visit him. Granted, visiting in December doesn't make sense, but it's our only opportunity.

I'm going KLM anyway. :D

I'm thinking you need a new boyfriend, Fran. One who lives in Florida. :)

[Fran]

I'm thinking you need a new boyfriend, Fran. One who lives in Florida. :)

I quite like the one I've got. I'll just order him to move. :D

[Noah Body]

Pilots are many things, but well-paid is not one of them.

Senior captains on big routes are definitely pretty well paid. And these guys aren't regional pilots making $17K a year, though they're likely not big kahunas, either.

Edit to add:

American Airlines: 1st yr F/O: $31,080 and 10th yr Captain $123,420

Delta Airlines: 1st yr F/O: $50,400 and 10th yr Captain $204,636

UPS: 1st yr F/O: $26,004 and 10th yr Captain $200,508

Southwest: 1st yr F/O: $42,960 and 10th yr Captain $159,000

ATA: 1st yr F/O: $36,000 and 10th yr Captain $136,632

Airborne Express: 1st yr F/O $28,536 and 10th yr Captain $146,184

From here (http://www.pea.com/imd/airline-pilot-salary.asp).

More here (http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/option,com_docman/task,cat_view/gid,64/Itemid,85.html), which gives one a PDF if one is so inclined to view it.

Some rather unappetizing charting can be found here (http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Airline_Pilot,_Copilot,_or_Flight_Engineer/Salary#).

And as always, airline pilots give up some of their numbers on their own forum. (http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/general_aviation/read.main/4426448/)

Now, if you don't think low six figures is a good salary, that's another argument altogether.

[Noah Body]

I haven't flown often, but one time was a flight on an MD-88, only a few weeks after this incident:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McDonnell_Douglas_MD-80

The jackscrew and the associated hardware weren't degraded past tolerance--they were right at the point where they should have been replaced, but the airline maintenance regulations didn't specify if replacement had to happen at the measured level, or once the parts were past it. The distinction is relevant.

When airline deregulation occurred and people were able to fly coast-to-coast for $98, the airlines had to figure out a way to offload the associated losses in revenue. Scaling back maintenance and following only FAA-issued ADs as opposed to manufacturer recommendations was one way they saved money. Of course, they also lose airplanes that way, airplanes which are flying for more than 20 years in some cases. The only way to change this is for passengers to stop flying, and that's not likely to happen.

[benbradley]

Computers can be time traps! Duh!

http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/10/26/airliner.flyby/index.html
(CNN) -- The pilots of the commercial jetliner that last week overshot its destination by about 150 miles have said they were using their laptops and lost track of time and location, federal safety officials said Monday.
...
"Using laptops or engaging in activity unrelated to the pilots' command of the aircraft during flight is strictly against the airline's flight deck policies and violations of that policy will result in termination," Delta said Monday in a statement.

[Noah Body]

So much for adhering to the sterile cockpit regulations, boys. See ya.

[Fran]

Just out of idle interest, is there ANY way the pilots could have got out of this with their jobs? I mean, with these set of circumstances is there any way it wouldn't have been their fault? I suspect not or they'd have kept their mouths shut entirely, but they might as well say anything they like.

[squibnocket]

I'm still not buying their story.

<cite class="expCaption"></cite><cite></cite>The pilots said there was "a concentrated period of discussion where they did not monitor the airplane or calls" from air traffic control, though both said they heard conversation on the radio, the report said. Neither pilot said he noticed messages sent by company dispatchers, it added.

They heard the radio conversations during their 78 minutes of radio silence and did nothing. (Huh?) Because they were using laptops and talking. (Double huh?)

I don't get it.

[blacbird]

They haven't tried the "Dakota Triangle" option yet, you know, time warp, mysterious clouds, instruments going crazy, etc.

caw

[veinglory]

Indeed these guys are getting a fair amount. Your typical pilot in early mid-career today gets about as much as an entry level civil servant for a job with horrendous hours and stresses.



Now, if you don't think low six figures is a good salary, that's another argument altogether.

[veinglory]

p.s. it has been explained, they were both on their laptops and didn't notice what happened until the cabin staff alerted them. Maybe they were here ;)

[Fran]

p.s. it has been explained, they were both on their laptops and didn't notice what happened until the cabin staff alerted them. Maybe they were here ;)

I hope they were!

So what really happened, guys? You can tell us. ;)

[Williebee]

World of Warcraft?

Halo 3?

Please let it not be BeJeweled.

[clintl]

My guess is they got sucked into a PC&E thread.

[Noah Body]

The FAA has revoked their licenses. (http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archives/bizav/1501-full.html#201409) They can protest this, but I rather suspect it will be an uphill fight for them...presuming they've bothered to look up from their laptops over the past couple of days to even notice the ruling.

[Noah Body]

Indeed these guys are getting a fair amount. Your typical pilot in early mid-career today gets about as much as an entry level civil servant for a job with horrendous hours and stresses.

10 years is considered mid-career, and it lands in the six figures in the majors. Where are you getting your information?

[veinglory]

For a start the co-pilot who crashed in the icing incident was getting $17,000. An aquaintance of mine has been a pilot for about 10 years and gets $30,000 -- half the starting pay for a teacher.

[blacbird]

Try this on for size: Pilot salary scales for American Airlines (a comparable carrier in most ways to Northwest, for which data were not available):

http://www.willflyforfood.com/airline-pilot-salary/87/American-Airlines.html

The airline in the Buffalo ice crash was a cut-rate cheapskate outfit, and their pilot compensation practices quite probably contributed to the crash by forcing pilots to log too many hours.

Pilots at major commercial airlines make a hell of a lot more money than your average mid-career civil servant can ever hope to.

caw

[clintl]

For a start the co-pilot who crashed in the icing incident was getting $17,000. An aquaintance of mine has been a pilot for about 10 years and gets $30,000 -- half the starting pay for a teacher.

Where do starting teachers get paid that? They certainly don't here.

[blacbird]

Average teacher salaries, U.S., by years of experience.

http://www.payscale.com/research/US/All_K-12_Teachers/Salary/by_Years_Experience

See how easy finding real factual information about stuff like this is?

caw

[Noah Body]

For a start the co-pilot who crashed in the icing incident was getting $17,000. An aquaintance of mine has been a pilot for about 10 years and gets $30,000 -- half the starting pay for a teacher.

Yeah, Colgan Air is not one of the majors. That's a commuter line, also known as a regional carrier. Do you know the difference between NWA and Colgan Air or American Airlines and American Eagle?

These guys were senior flight members serving on a national carrier, on a published cardinal route--not low-hour crew in a regional carrier trying to build up enough hours to make the transition.

If you acquaintance has ten years of service and he's still only making 30K, ask him if he (or she) has an ATP, or just a commercial ticket. In ten years with jets, he could make the move from a regional carrier to a fractional outfit like NetJets and fly Gulfstreams or BBJs for six figures. This is presuming he or she has over 5,000 hours time.

Don't mean to be snooty, but I think your information is suspect.