Schools/Houses of Magic

[Liosse de Velishaf]

Anyone who cries "Morrowind" in here will be strangled with a silk scarf dipped in glue and glass shards.

No, not really. I freely admit to having played and loved Morowind/Oblivion. That is not, however, from whence I derived my sysrtem of magic.

Basically, the story takes place in a Renaissance/Baroque-like world where there is magic. Magic is divided into 7 Major and 14 Minor Disciplines called Houses or Schools, and yes, I have capitalized several common english terms and I like it.

Magic is very abstract in terms of its uses, and you will not see anyone flinging fireballs and such (for the most part). It is very hard to learn, takes a lot of schooling, and is quite intellectual. There is a language of magic, but it isn't True Speech or some such thing. Magicians study it like Priests study Latin and Greek, and it is the lingua franca of the Disciplines. It runs on a system more akin to a philosophical idea than science or "magical" magic. Something like Rothfuss or Grossman(, whom I have not read yet, but am going by the eviews I did read) who are the closest I have come to encontering this idea.. Magic is very integrated into te society, a least in termsof the upper classes. Think alchemy in Europe, maybe, although this magic actually *works*.


So, what do you think of the idea? Are there any obvious pros or cons? Is it a cliche? Are there any books you can recommend that have similar presentations?

[TheIT]

I have no idea what Morowind/Oblivian is, but the first thing which comes to my mind is Dungeons & Dragons. The various disciplines of magic are divided into Schools. I see nothing wrong with the concept.

[Sarpedon]

what purpose would practitioners have to divide the discipline up thus?

And what importance would this have to the story?

[Liosse de Velishaf]

I have no idea what Morowind/Oblivian is, but the first thing which comes to my mind is Dungeons & Dragons. The various disciplines of magic are divided into Schools. I see nothing wrong with the concept.


Hehe... I know what D&D is, but I have no idea how it works as a game, so I was not aware of the connection. Interesting.


Sarpedon--Good questions.

1. The schools come in sets of three--one major, two minor--which are related in effect. Each set focuses on a specific "area" of magic. Since the curriculum is very tough, and certain tasks would not require a magician to know every type of magic, the disciplines are a convenient way to categorize various types of magic in the curriculum so that a person only has to learn what they would need. Just like a biologist would not need to take advanced music theory; although the types of magic are somewhat more related than that, it's the basic idea.

2. I'm notsure if this question refers to the way magic is categorised, or if you mean magic in general. Could you clarify?

[Shades of Humanity]

Anyone who cries "Morrowind" in here will be strangled with a silk scarf dipped in glue and glass shards.

No, not really. I freely admit to having played and loved Morowind/Oblivion. That is not, however, from whence I derived my sysrtem of magic.

Basically, the story takes place in a Renaissance/Baroque-like world where there is magic. Magic is divided into 7 Major and 14 Minor Disciplines called Houses or Schools, and yes, I have capitalized several common english terms and I like it.

Magic is very abstract in terms of its uses, and you will not see anyone flinging fireballs and such (for the most part). It is very hard to learn, takes a lot of schooling, and is quite intellectual. There is a language of magic, but it isn't True Speech or some such thing. Magicians study it like Priests study Latin and Greek, and it is the lingua franca of the Disciplines. It runs on a system more akin to a philosophical idea than science or "magical" magic. Something like Rothfuss or Grossman(, whom I have not read yet, but am going by the eviews I did read) who are the closest I have come to encontering this idea.. Magic is very integrated into te society, a least in termsof the upper classes. Think alchemy in Europe, maybe, although this magic actually *works*.


So, what do you think of the idea? Are there any obvious pros or cons? Is it a cliche? Are there any books you can recommend that have similar presentations?

Having played Oblivion, I really like the idea of structured magic.

If magic is so prevalent in your society as you say, then in my mind it makes sense that it's organized so specifically.

PM when you have a draft ready, I'd be interested in reading :)

[Liosse de Velishaf]

Having played Oblivion, I really like the idea of structured magic.

If magic is so prevalent in your society as you say, then in my mind it makes sense that it's organized so specifically.

PM when you have a draft ready, I'd be interested in reading :)


Woooh... I was prepared for more of a negative response from the elderscrolls crowd.

Anyway, glad the idea interested you. I'm afraid I won't have a draft for awhile, as I'm doing a different story for NaNo, which I'm hoping to get a finished draft for sometime in January or February, but when I do have one, I might give you a buzz.

[Sevvy]

2. I'm notsure if this question refers to the way magic is categorised, or if you mean magic in general. Could you clarify?

I think he's asking how does the divisions of magic affect the story itself, and I was wondering something similar, which is how did the magic system end up like this? That's important stuff to know (how it came about and what it does to the society) to make the magic system seem more real...and not like you got it out of a video game. ^_~

Speaking of, I don't think it's a total rip-off of the ES stuff (great games), but I would just like to point out since you mentioned it to be careful with modeling any magic system off of a game like ES or D&D. Those systems work fine because they're games and need a way of scaling a character's power with their level and such. In practice, it isn't that great to use in writing, which is why most of the books that have settings which use a D&D system of magic tweak it a little so there isn't talk about spell slots and levels, which are purely game mechanics.

[Judg]

Honestly, it's all in how you handle the story. If the story is compelling, very few people will care if they've seen certain elements before.

[Dicentra P]

As a non gamer I would ask:
1) Is the reader going to get bogged down in the complexity of the magic schools to the detriment of the story?
2) Do you have a reason that Magic has a language of its own, even if it is not explained in the book i.e. an classical culture that founded the schools and its language is now dead except for magical scholorship.

[Richard White]

That reminds me of a couple of novels out there.

Master of the Five Magics by Lyndon Hardy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master_of_the_Five_Magics approached the idea of magic being fragmented and wizards specializing in a particular school. Only special people could master multiple forms and even fewer could master all of the forms. The first of a trilogy, it's an older series, but worth the read if you can find it.

[BigWords]

Giving certain types of spells to certan types of individuals... Hmmm. This is making me think that there would be a caste system of some kind in place, and those who are descended from a particular area (or who had historically been employed in a certain type of occupation) would be excluded from the sexier uses of magic - creating giant balls of flame, p'rhaps.

[Liosse de Velishaf]

Sevvy, mine's not modeled off of a game, so I think I'm safe there.

It's not so much that magic strictly follows this system. The categorization is man-made, and developed from years and years of study and scholarship. Sort of like our real-world model, where specialization was a vicious cycle. Early on, you can make big discoveries in general fields, but as more and more are made, you really have to study a specific area to find anything significant.

DP,
1. I don't delve to deep into the "complexity". The story isn't about a magician researching more advanced theories of Illusion, it's about characters using that power (or not) to address conflict.
2. Basically what you have described. A lot of the important texts were written in the language, and a lot of discoveries were made by people who spoke it. In the area in which the story takes place, most scholarship is by tradition carried out in this language. Half way across the world, it's probably carried out in another language. It's just a mundane language, much like our classical languages of greek and latin. It's not as if no one has translated anything into the vernacular.

Richard, I've been meaning to read that series forever. I definitely agree there are some similarities.

BigWords, It's more like you wouldn't teach an organic chemist particle physics. There's too much in his own special field to concentrate on. Now, learning the advanced stuff is labor-intensive and very expensive, so to some extent, the higher you are in society, the easier it would be for you. On the other hand, if you really want to turn out a lot of good practitioners, you can't scruple too much on how much money they have. Smart people get sponsored all the time.

As for giant balls of flame, usually a lot more trouble than it is worth.

[defcon6000]

MORROWIND! :D
Good games, still haven't gotten around to playing Oblivion.

It runs on a system more akin to a philosophical idea than science or "magical" magic.Systems run on structured rules, not ideas and beliefs. It kinda sounds like your magic is just an art, nothing substantial to prove it or disprove it, just something the rich with lots of time on their hands to study for the heck of it. Maybe there's some political implications behind it, like learning to hex your opponents. ;)

[bearilou]

Good thread!

I like the idea of regimentally structured schools of magic and just like our technology has many different fields of specializations (as you touched on in your comment to Dicentra P), the further you go in your studies, the more focused your specialization becomes.

I will also admit a weakness for 'colleges' that teach magic as seriously as they would any of the arts or sciences in SFF. :D

[menjustme]

well, when refering to books i've read dealing with magic there are a few ways you can divide this depending on where you want to take the reader.
for example if you want to make your magic using character more akin to his/her sense of good and just, then you have the three basic schools of good, natural and dark magic.
if you want to make your character strong in will or lets say quick to react then maybe divide the schools by elements where fire is represanting such a temper.
there are a few more lines you can take and i'd be glad to help with whatever knowledge i have on this subject

[Liosse de Velishaf]

MORROWIND! :D
Good games, still haven't gotten around to playing Oblivion.

Systems run on structured rules, not ideas and beliefs. It kinda sounds like your magic is just an art, nothing substantial to prove it or disprove it, just something the rich with lots of time on their hands to study for the heck of it. Maybe there's some political implications behind it, like learning to hex your opponents. ;)


Yeah, I had trouble finding a good way to word that. I meant superficially. There's an actual system underneath it.


Menju- er, thanks? But I've got a system. And it runs on neither of those distinctions, which are actually rather cliche.

[ruckeriii]

I think the language of magic as something like a chant the monks use to place themselves in a trance. When a child learns to read or a second language it opens new neuron paths in the brain. The language of magic will be deigned to forge paths in the brain for the use of power. That is why older magic users are more powerful, they have spent more time shaping their brains fro the use of magic. But the more of your brain you use for magic the less you have for other things like sight, thinking or motor skills. You could say that the oldest most powerful wizards have either given up something like the ability to move their legs or sight (sight takes up almost 1/3 of the brain so it is the most used target) in order to reformat more of their brain to use magic. They may be incredibly forgetful or stupefied by the conversion or they may simply go mad.

Not bad for something I made up as I typed it? I think I will save it for my stories. Thanks for helping me find this! I think I have just found the central pillar for my new book!


Mason

P.S. Sorry drifted off topic in my excitement.