? Cost for edit of MS

[ANNIE]

What is a reasonable cost for a MS with a word count of about 150k, requiring heavy editing? I'm kind of putting the cart before the horse as I've already had this done, but I want to know if I was ripped of or not

Thanks-Annie

[hoyateach]

What is a reasonable cost for a MS with a word count of about 150k, requiring heavy editing? I'm kind of putting the cart before the horse as I've already had this done, but I want to know if I was ripped of or not

Thanks-Annie

I hired an editor for my novel MS (then 180,000 words, now about 79,000 words) and he charged US$150/hour. Worth every penny, though, as he is a former professional fiction editor (now executive editor at a major nonfiction house) who's edited the likes of Toni Morrison and Robert Ludlum.

It was a lot of money to be sure so it depends on the editor's qualifications, background, etc. But for me, it was definitely a wise investment.

[reph]

$150? Wow. The most I've ever got for editing is $30 (U.S.) per hour, and I'm very good at it.

[Torgo]

A nice racket, is what it sounds like...

[maestrowork]

$150/hour is a little high... IMHO.

I think for heavy editing (copy, development, etc.) $3-$5 a page is normal. 250 words is usually considered one page. So, 150K = ~600 pages = $1800 to $3000.

[ANNIE]

oKAY,

I DON'T FEEL SO BAD NOW. i PAID 2100$ FOR MY EDIT AND THOUGHT HE DID A GREAT JOB. tHANKS
ANNIE

[Jamesaritchie]

Nonfiction is a very different matter, but I always tell writers they're making a huge mistake by hiring editing done on a novel. If you can't do the editing yourself, it's very unlikely anyone else can do it for you to the point where the novel will sell. Editing is part of writing fiction.

Having said that, all these rates seem too high. I don't edit very often these days, but I charge only $1.25 per page, and I think anything over $2.00 per page is a ripoff. Especially considering what it is you're really getting. . .and losing.

In my opinion, editing should not be a task wherein excessive profit is made. I edit more to help the writer than to make a profit, so I only want my time paid for, which means I don't want to lose money on the job. At $1.25 per page, my time is paid, the writer isn't sent into bankruptcy, and the job gets done pretty fast.

I also think a good editor is picky about what he edits. If I don't think my work will help a novel, I won't edit it.

[sunandshadow]

I'll do a single pass light edit for $1-1.50 per page, but if I have to do fact checking, heavy content editing, or multiple passes that doesn't end up paying for my time, it can take 2 or 3 hours to do a chapter.

[ANNIE]

jUST TO BE CLEAR- what exactly do consider editing?

punctuation, grammer, sentence structure, inconsistancies in the story line? Any or all of the above?

[Jamesaritchie]

jUST TO BE CLEAR- what exactly do consider editing?

punctuation, grammer, sentence structure, inconsistancies in the story line? Any or all of the above?

For me, inconsistencies in the storyline are the writer's responsibility, though if I see any, I will point them out. That isn't editing, it's rewriting.

Everything else falls under editing, and should be part of the job.

[ANNIE]

thank you all for the info. I appreciate the sage advice.

[maestrowork]

There are different levels of editing.

- proof reading: grammar, spelling errors, punctuations, formatting (line breaks, etc.), acronyms.
- copy editing: proof reading + sentence structures, word choices, consistency, minor rewrites for clarity
- development (book doctoring): proofing + copyediting + character development, plot, content, style, fact checking, etc. + rewrites...

[sunandshadow]

My 'light editing' would be the same as Maestrowork's 'proofreading and copy editing', and my 'content editing or fact checking' would be the same as Maestrowork's 'development'.

[victoriastrauss]

oKAY,

I DON'T FEEL SO BAD NOW. i PAID 2100$ FOR MY EDIT AND THOUGHT HE DID A GREAT JOB. tHANKS
ANNIEYou can pay that much for a good edit, or for a bad one. One thing good editors have in common with questionable ones is that both can charge thousands for a whole-book edit. Whether you got ripped or not depends on whether or not your editor was qualified.

Self-editing is an essential part of the writer's craft, and anyone who is serious about a writing career needs to learn it. Another issue: if you don't know how to edit yourself, how will you know if the "professional" you've hired has done a good job?

Editing can make any manuscript better. But it can't make a bad manuscript good, and it can't necessarily make a good manuscript publishable. "Publishable" has a lot to do with quality, but it has a lot to do with other things as well. I see so many writers turning to paid editors as a sort of crutch, and most of the time it's not a good investment. A second eye is essential--no one can be totally objective about his or her own work. But you don't have to pay for it.

If you do spring for an editor, don't mention it when you submit. There are so many bad editors out there that an agent or publisher may assume you've been taken.

- Victoria

[sunandshadow]

Whether you got ripped or not depends on whether or not your editor was qualified.

Disagree - someone with excellent qualifications might do a lousy job editing, while someone with no qualifications might do a great job editing. Whether you got ripped depends on whether you (because who else is qualified to judge? difficult to take a survey of publishers...) think the book is better after its been edited.

[reph]

Disagree - someone with excellent qualifications might do a lousy job editing, while someone with no qualifications might do a great job editing.
S&S, are you possibly thinking of credentials rather than qualifications? A person with no qualifications can't do a great job of editing. If the job is great, then the person is qualified.

Whether you got ripped depends on whether you...think the book is better after its been edited.
A couple of problems with this. The writer is only one person whose opinion of the book counts; another, for example, might be a publisher who will accept or reject it. And the writer might think the editor improved the book but charged too much.

[Jamesaritchie]

Disagree - someone with excellent qualifications might do a lousy job editing, while someone with no qualifications might do a great job editing. Whether you got ripped depends on whether you (because who else is qualified to judge? difficult to take a survey of publishers...) think the book is better after its been edited.

I've yet to see a writer who didn't think the book was better, no matter how rotten the editing job. Whether or not you get ripped isn't a matter of the writer's opinion, it's purely and simply a matter of how well and how professionally the job is done.

Who else is qualified to judge? The agents and editors you send the novel to after it's edited, that's who, and they will know in a heartbeat whether or not the writer got ripped. And far more often than not, the writers gets ripped royally, no matter what the fees are.

No writer who is sane hires someone without serious professional experience to edit a novel. Whether or not an edit is well done and worth the money is not something that's subjective. Good, pro editors do a good, pro job, and they get it right. It isn't a matter of opinion, or of what the writer thinks.

A good editor gets the grammar correct, the punctuation correct, the proofing correct, the syntax correct, the sentence structure correct, and the format correct, all according to the actual rules. No guesswork involved.

When I edit, I always do what maestrowork calls proofreading and copy editing. I believe any good edit includes both of these things. I don't do "light" edits or "heavy" edits, I simply do the job the manuscript requires.

Most editors seriously overcharge. I see no reason at all why an editor you hire should make three or more times as much as the top editors working for the best publishers. It simply makes no sense at all to charge this much, and even less sense to pay this much.

I have never seen anyone with really good qualifications do a rotten job, and I've never seen anyone without good qualifications do a good job. Unfortunately, a huge percentage of "editors" for hire have no qualifications, unless they make them up, and no matter what they charge, or what the writer thinks, it's a complete rip.

The last thing any sane writer does is pay an unqualified person to edit a manuscript.

And I believe completely that any writer is a hundred times better off if they learn to do these things on their own. It's all part of being a good writer.

I also belive completely that any editor knows when to back away. A novel that's written too poorly to help should not cost the writer large sums of money for work that will take that writer nowhere. Nor should a novel that's already good enough not to need the help cost a writer an arm or a leg.

And I'll say it one more time. The last thing any sane writer does is pay someone without very good qualifications to edit a manuscript. It's wasted money, and it's always a major rip.

[sunandshadow]

S&S, are you possibly thinking of credentials rather than qualifications? A person with no qualifications can't do a great job of editing. If the job is great, then the person is qualified.

Yes, people often use the two terms interchangably, especially when talking about hiring people, so I assumed Victoria was thinking of credentials.

[sunandshadow]

When I edit, I always do what maestrowork calls proofreading and copy editing. I believe any good edit includes both of these things. I don't do "light" edits or "heavy" edits, I simply do the job the manuscript requires.

What about making scene structure and plot suggestions? Do you just not do that, or always do it if you feel the manuscript requires it...? What if the client specifically asks for that and has no interest in being copyedited?

Most editors seriously overcharge. I see no reason at all why an editor you hire should make three or more times as much as the top editors working for the best publishers. It simply makes no sense at all to charge this much, and even less sense to pay this much.

Well the top editor working for the best publisher makes what, 60-70k a year? I can't imagine the ridiculous rate someone would have to charge per page to earn 3 times that in a year! o.O

[aruna]

Self-editing is an essential part of the writer's craft, and anyone who is serious about a writing career needs to learn it. Another issue: if you don't know how to edit yourself, how will you know if the "professional" you've hired has done a good job?

Editing can make any manuscript better. But it can't make a bad manuscript good, and it can't necessarily make a good manuscript publishable. "Publishable" has a lot to do with quality, but it has a lot to do with other things as well. I see so many writers turning to paid editors as a sort of crutch, and most of the time it's not a good investment. A second eye is essential--no one can be totally objective about his or her own work. But you don't have to pay for it.

- Victoria

There seems to be some confusion here. What does editing actually mean? That you give your manusript away "to be edited", and it comes back in perfect form? That I would agree is nonsense; as a writrer you must edit yourself.

I always understood "editing" - and I always use the word in this context - in the sense of "assessment" - a professional, trained editor goes over your work and tells you its weaknesses and strengths, advises you on how to put it right. I consider this a very important function, especially for the first time author - better than any writing course. Naturally, when you get back the editor's report, you do all the work yourself. Hopefully, the next time you can do it yourself without help, as you become more professional.

I had my first book edited in this fashion; I paid by the number of pages, not by the hour. I paid about £350 for a 150k ms, which is about twice that in dollars. Seems cheap, in comparison! And I got an excellent report, plus a recommendation to an agent, who took me on.

[aruna]

S&S, are you possibly thinking of credentials rather than qualifications? A person with no qualifications can't do a great job of editing. If the job is great, then the person is qualified.

.

Reph, I love your eagle eye with words. I'd like to hire you! I always struggle to find the exact word. Living in Gremany for 30 years didn't help; I spoke very little English in that time and when I returned it all felt so rusty. Sometimes I even mixed up words that sounded similar, and I had to look up in a dictionary whether a word was English or German. There were a lotr of new wordas in the English language I'd never heard of, and I had to learn them.:mad:

[aruna]

A good editor gets the grammar correct, the punctuation correct, the proofing correct, the syntax correct, the sentence structure correct, and the format correct, all according to the actual rules. No guesswork involved.

.

Aha. I see that your definition of editing is different to mine. My editor made absolutely no corrections of this kind. The advice was entirely on content: POV, structure, story coherance. And that IS a subjective thing; I might think first person is the best voice for my novel, the editor might think third. Who is right? That's purely a matter of opinion. I get the feeling sunandshadow is using "editing" in the same sense that I am.

I assume that as a (aspiring) writer you already know the rules os spelling and grammar. On the other hand, I see no reason why a dyslexic person couldn't tell a great story. In that case, I certainly advocate copy-editing.

[reph]

I always understood "editing" - and I always use the word in this context - in the sense of "assessment" - a professional, trained editor goes over your work and tells you its weaknesses and strengths, advises you on how to put it right.
In the U.S., this is called developmental editing. An in-house developmental editor works with the acquisitions department, writing a report that enters into the decision to accept a manuscript or not. Copy editing is a later stage in production.

I'm not sure what you mean to contrast "a professional, trained editor" with. All editors should be trained. The label "professional" is tricky because editors don't meet all the criteria in the classical definition, such as licensing or certification. (By that definition, no one is a professional writer, either.)

[reph]

I assume that as a (aspiring) writer you already know the rules os spelling and grammar. On the other hand, I see no reason why a dyslexic person couldn't tell a great story. In that case, I certainly advocate copy-editing.
Spelling and grammar are less widely known than you assume. A publisher would be making a big mistake if it put out a book without copy editing, whether or not the author was dyslexic. Real publishers don't do that.

[aruna]

In the U.S., this is called developmental editing. An in-house developmental editor works with the acquisitions department, writing a report that enters into the decision to accept a manuscript or not. Copy editing is a later stage in production.

.)

I am referring to editing that is done before a writer even sub,its a mansucript; to get it up to scratch.

[QUOTE} Spelling and grammar are less widely known than you assume. A publisher would be making a big mistake if it put out a book without copy editing, whether or not the author was dyslexic. Real publishers don't do that. [/QUOTE]

I never suggested that a publisher put out a book withour copty-editing! But every publisher has an in-house editor; and if they have an excellent manusrcipt with some mistakes of spelling, that CAN be rectified in-house.

It seems that James and others are referring to copy-editing before submission. This should be learned by a serious writer; and a dyslexic writer, or anyone with serious problems, needs to have it done professionally. The ability to spell doesn't come automaticlaly with the ability to tell a great story; and in such a case, if the writer really can't learn (as in the case of a dyslexic) that I don't see why she shouldn't get it done professionally. The story is more important than the spelling.

[aruna]

In the U.S., this is called developmental editing. An in-house developmental editor works with the acquisitions department, writing a report that enters into the decision to accept a manuscript or not. Copy editing is a later stage in production.



For the record; I know this. I've had three novels published.

[ANNIE]

I may (or not) have paid to much for my edit, however as a novice, unpublished, housewife, nurse, horse trainer, who knew nothing about submitting a manuscript. This man's advice was invaluble to me.


I didn't know that you needed a certain font, or the proper way to number your pages. I had no idea my novel started off way to slow or that if the sory didn't start by page four the reader most likley would out it down. No One told me these things and I didn't know enough to ask or to even look for the answers.

I'm certain I'm not the only one who was in this situation. I got a rejection letter from an agency who told me to get a good editor and made a suggestion.

That was the best piece of advice I ever recieved. With this man's help - he did punctuaton, grammer, proper sentence structure, and some mild plot corrections, I feel that my novel might actually have a one in a million chance of getting published - better than before which was 0 chance.

I feel my story is much better now than before I sent it to him, and I can't remember who posted this, but I do feel I have learned enought to not mak those same mistakes in my next work.

So ripped off or not I have to say I have no regretts with the pth I chose
Annie

[Jamesaritchie]

Aha. I see that your definition of editing is different to mine. My editor made absolutely no corrections of this kind. The advice was entirely on content: POV, structure, story coherance. And that IS a subjective thing; I might think first person is the best voice for my novel, the editor might think third. Who is right? That's purely a matter of opinion. I get the feeling sunandshadow is using "editing" in the same sense that I am.

I assume that as a (aspiring) writer you already know the rules os spelling and grammar. On the other hand, I see no reason why a dyslexic person couldn't tell a great story. In that case, I certainly advocate copy-editing.

No, POV, structure, and story coherence and not subjective things. Because people differ on how these things should be done does not mean they are subjective. What people disagree on are which is best, not which is right or wrong. Any good editor has the experience to know when these things do not work, when they're done so poorly the book has no chance of selling, and any good, experienced editor knows when these things do work, even if they aren't the way he would personally do them.

First person or third, a good editor makes it work.

And if you're paying an editor for content work, you'd better hire an editor with a ton of experience. An editor without serious experoience in the field might as well be guessing.

And in all truth, paying for an edit because you're dyslexic is the biggest waste of money there is. I know several dyslexic writers, a couple who are severely dyslexic, and not one of them needs to pay anyone for editing.

And in my experience, darned few aspiring writers know enough about grammar and punctuation to do teh job anywhere near right. The most common reason I hear for writers hiring editors is to fix their grammar and punctuation.

And in truth, the track record for edited novels is absolutely rotten.

With very few exceptions, a writer who pays to have these things done either doesn't really need them in the first place, or is almost certainly a rotten writer who won't be helped by the editing.

If you want to be a good writer, you must learn to edit for yourself. You must learn how to WRITE, and writing means being able to get content correct without paying someone to do it for you. When you have to hire content editing, you aren't the writer, the person you hire is.

No sane writer puts his manuscript in the hands of an editor who doesn't have solid credentials and wide experience in the field. And no good editor works with a writer who is good enough not to need the help, or so bad the editor can't help them.

[aruna]

No

And if you're paying an editor for content work, you'd better hire an editor with a ton of experience. An editor without serious experoience in the field might as well be guessing.

These are givens. It seems to me obvious that if you are going to get help, get the best. It isn't even worth mentioning!

And in all truth, paying for an edit because you're dyslexic is the biggest waste of money there is. I know several dyslexic writers, a couple who are severely dyslexic, and not one of them needs to pay anyone for editing.

That may be. My daughter happens to be dyslexic. She's a good storyteller. She needs help with her spelling. I help her wioth her schoolwork. Maybe when she's grown up (she's now 15) shemay want towrite stories, and may need help; professional help. If that's what she wants, I'd encouage her. What do the dyslexic writers you mention do, when they submit stories? Do they submit them full of mistakes, or can they edit them themselves? If they can. then they are not dyslexic.


And in my experience, darned few aspiring writers know enough about grammar and punctuation to do teh job anywhere near right. The most common reason I hear for writers hiring editors is to fix their grammar and punctuation.

And in truth, the track record for edited novels is absolutely rotten..



If you want to be a good writer, you must learn to edit for yourself. You must learn how to WRITE, and writing means being able to get content correct without paying someone to do it for you. When you have to hire content editing, you aren't the writer, the person you hire is..[/QUOTE]

No sane writer puts his manuscript in the hands of an editor who doesn't have solid credentials and wide experience in the field. And no good editor works with a writer who is good enough not to need the help, or so bad the editor can't help them.

I'm not sure what you're arguing about; what you say here is pretty obvious and absolutely correct. However, a good editor can help a potentially, good but inexperienced, writer to write even better. And I think that is the crux of the matter.

[veinglory]

On the up side that same advice about formatting and pacing of novels is also available here in these forums for free.

[aruna]

On the up side that same advice about formatting and pacing of novels is also available here in these forums for free.

That is true. And there are also mentors and such availble here. If you can get a good service for free, then go ahead! But not every good editor is prepared to work for free; and not every aspiring writer has knows where to find a free service. Some are out there all alone - just as I was; and it seems to me the best solution, when you are at the stage where you have the first draft of a mansucript that you sense is good but needs work, to get the services of a qualified freelance.
Sometimes you ned nore than general advice; you need someone with a keen eye to read the specific ms and give specific advice.

[aruna]

On the up side that same advice about formatting and pacing of novels is also available here in these forums for free.

And for the record, there is also a paid editorial service on this very website avaialble for writers. So the concept can't be THAT bad; which is the impression I am getting!

[brinkett]

On the up side that same advice about formatting and pacing of novels is also available here in these forums for free.
Formatting, yes. All other advice is general -- not about a specific manuscript that a person with credentials has read to completion.

I'm not sure what the big hoo-ha is over hiring an editor. If someone has the money, wants to do it, and hires someone qualified/with credentials, what's the skin off anybody's nose here? As long as someone knows what they want to get out of it and is satisfied with the results, who cares.

It's not an either/or - do the editing yourself OR hire an editor. People do both. And for those published writers saying "learn to do it yourself", I assume that when you've sold a novel, you're assigned an editor and they have suggestions for you. Why is it different when someone takes this step before they submit a novel, apart from that it's on their dime?

And believe me, there are a lot of published novels I've read that could have benefited from a decent editor. It's almost like some established writers are fast-tracked and don't get the same level of editing as they did with their earlier novels--unfortunately.

[Tirjasdyn]

That may be. My daughter happens to be dyslexic. She's a good storyteller. She needs help with her spelling. I help her wioth her schoolwork. Maybe when she's grown up (she's now 15) shemay want towrite stories, and may need help; professional help. If that's what she wants, I'd encouage her. What do the dyslexic writers you mention do, when they submit stories? Do they submit them full of mistakes, or can they edit them themselves? If they can. then they are not dyslexic.




I'm severly dyslexic. This is what you do.

Teach her how to use spell check. Have her get in the habit of putting it down for awhile (whenever possible) she'll see the errors later.

Practice does make a difference.

Get her into writing classes. I started taking them when I was 15 at the local community college.

Invest in a laptop. Invest in a pda or daytimer. Keeping organized is key. Make lists.

Join a critique group or form one with friends. There are many that understand dyslexia.

Teach her that critques are good but you don't have to accept them.

Read. Read Read Read. Everything. It may be the hardest thing.

Above all stay organized. You will drown with out it.

Don't expect to submit right away. Write, put down,. write a new story put down, critque the old, write a new story, rewrite the old , critique the second. keep notes. My last short story took 1 year before submission. Eventually she'll get in the pattern where submissions are all the time.

Find a writing buddy that can tell when your story (not writing) is crap. We all produce crap sometimes but might not know it.

Keep a style manual of some sort around all the time. Pocket versions for fiction writers are every where.

[aruna]

I'm severly dyslexic. This is what you do.


Thanks four your tips, Trisjasdyn.
The biggest help I found till now was the book "Right-brained children in a left-brained world", by Jeffrey Freed; I read that when she was ten. It was amazing; using his methods, she learned to spell words backwards and forwards within minutes! (Very often, though, she'd forget with a very short time. Remembering is her big problem - in spelling and in maths.) However, that was in germany and a year later we moved to England and she had to learn a whole new language from scratch. The upside is that I then put her in a private school where she gets all the help she can need - very much one-on-one, so I don't have to do anything after hours. She also has a laptop - an ibook, which she loves. She is by nature very organised - much more so than I am - she just can't spell, and has problems with mathematics, as well. However, all she lacks she makes up for in other areas - she is extremely artistic and has a sense of social ethics far beyond her age - several times more mature than I was at her age. So she's doing well. There's no sign yet that she'll want to write professionally - she's more into art and photography - but she always had a love for stories. Unfortunatley, in Germany that was quashed as they harangue the children over spelling more than anything else there

There was a time when she had a problem spelling even words like "I". She's much better now.

I was actually asking James how the writers he mentioned cope with their submissions. I'd really like to know

[aruna]

I'm not sure what the big hoo-ha is over hiring an editor. If someone has the money, wants to do it, and hires someone qualified/with credentials, what's the skin off anybody's nose here? As long as someone knows what they want to get out of it and is satisfied with the results, who cares.



Exactly. If this board has shown me one thing (it's the first time I've ever been in a community of writers) is that all of us come from entirely different places, and have different ways to go. Some people start writing for fun when still in school; some spend years in writing class; many write short story after short story befotre they embark on that first bovel, and all of these have learned the basic rules of novel writing beforehand. (And, after all, we ARE talking novels here.)

Or some are like me: not a single writing class, only one writing book, and that not even one on technique (Becoming a Writer; more on attitude than anything else). Never a short story, beyond the ones I wrote in school, 40 years ago. (I don't like short stories, and so don't write them. Never wrote one.).

And then suddenly, this complusion to write a whole novel, and you write it. What the hell are you supposed to do, EXCEPT turn to a freelance editor? And I am not the exception. Many first time novelists are people who have absolutely no experience or training in the writing of fiction. They simply plunge in. SOme have natural talent, some don't. It seems I do, because the first mammoth novel I wrote (700 pages in first draft) was taken on by the first agent I approached, but never found a publisher. The second was taken on by both the first agent and the first publisher. But both needed complex reworking.

There are others like me around, I'm sure. No previous experience; just plunge staright in. I would say in such a case the very best thing is a freelance editor. Better than even the best writing class.

And it goes without saying that she should be the very best one can afford; preferably, someone who has worked at a big publishing house.
We pay for good writing classes; why shouldn't we pay for good one-on-one "tuition" if that's the best option?

I use the world "tuition" becuase that's what it is, essentially. The only way to learn writing is to write. The only way to learn where we have gone wrong is to have soeone tell you. This is tuition.


Which does not mean there are not other ways to get publshed. We al have different ways to go. I hate to see a way that worked so well for me (and others) get disparaged.

[maestrowork]

There are many ways to learn the skills. You can invest $500 in a writing class taught by an experienced writer/published novelist. You can join a writing/crit group (but experiences vary). You can hire a mentor. You can pay $3000 and hire an editor to go one-on-one (sort of your private tutor, using your own ms. as teaching aid).

Personally, I don't see problems with any of these options, as long as you are willing to pay for it, and you know what you're getting into. Hiring a "good" editor or mentor (and I emphasize "good") could be a short cut to learn a lot about the craft without spending weeks and months in a class with students of different skill levels...

It's just like anything else. If I want to learn a new computer language, I could either: a) enroll in the university (an overkill); b) enroll in a 2-week class; c) hire a mentor/tutor; d) read a book and learn on my own... they all have pros and cons.

Personally, I like taking classes. I think it's fun, hands-on, and I like the interactions between the students. I learned quite a lot from my writing classes.

However, I think the problem is -- if you write a crappy novel and you expect a book doctor/editor to fix it and polish it to publishable quality, then you're on the wrong path, IMHO. I think you might as well just hire a ghost writer.

[Tirjasdyn]

Thanks four your tips, Trisjasdyn.
The biggest help I found till now was the book "Right-brained children in a left-brained world", by Jeffrey Freed; I read that when she was ten. It was amazing; using his methods, she learned to spell words backwards and forwards within minutes! (Very often, though, she'd forget with a very short time. Remembering is her big problem - in spelling and in maths.) However, that was in germany and a year later we moved to England and she had to learn a whole new language from scratch. The upside is that I then put her in a private school where she gets all the help she can need - very much one-on-one, so I don't have to do anything after hours. She also has a laptop - an ibook, which she loves. She is by nature very organised - much more so than I am - she just can't spell, and has problems with mathematics, as well. However, all she lacks she makes up for in other areas - she is extremely artistic and has a sense of social ethics far beyond her age - several times more mature than I was at her age. So she's doing well. There's no sign yet that she'll want to write professionally - she's more into art and photography - but she always had a love for stories. Unfortunatley, in Germany that was quashed as they harangue the children over spelling more than anything else there

There was a time when she had a problem spelling even words like "I". She's much better now.

I was actually asking James how the writers he mentioned cope with their submissions. I'd really like to know

The forgetting thing really gets me sometimes. I'll actually spell a word right but I'll think it's wrong. Sometimes my mind moves so fast I'll forget that I haven't written something down...the worst part is when I read over my work I read it as if what I haven't written was there!

As for your question, I would too, but that's how I coup with mine. Getting through a novel is lots of work though.

[aruna]

There are many ways to learn the skills. You can invest $500 in a writing class taught by an experienced writer/published novelist. You can join a writing/crit group (but experiences vary). You can hire a mentor. You can pay $3000 and hire an editor to go one-on-one (sort of your private tutor, using your own ms. as teaching aid).
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Personally, I like taking classes. I think it's fun, hands-on, and I like the interactions between the students. I learned quite a lot from my writing classes.
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However, I think the problem is -- if you write a crappy novel and you expect a book doctor/editor to fix it and polish it to publishable quality, then you're on the wrong path, IMHO. I think you might as well just hire a ghost writer.

The premise was: a writer who already has a finished manuscript, and knows it needs work, but doesn't know what. I can't believe that at this late stage a writing class would offer the precise, specific help that a one-on-one qualified editor/mentor could.


And then again, a writing class is not an option available to everyone. One of the advantages of the writing career is that you can do it ANWHERE. What if you happen to live in the middle of the Amazon - or, as in my case, a remote German village? How can you attend a writing class? What if you are so tied down with your day job, or if you are a single mom of small kids (or not even single) and just can't find the time for writing cass?

A freelance editor, however, can always be reached by snail mail or email - no matter where you live.

It seems to me, as well, that American editors are overpriced. $3000 seems far too much. I paid a little over $600 for my editor's report, and it was very detailed. She was one of the very best British freelancers, and still is. I would suggest to American writers to cast their eyes to Britain if they are looking for editing help.
There was no spelling or grammar help involved. She just mentioned that my work had a lot of typos and should be tidied up before submission - but in fact she submitted it herself in the end.


As for the crappy novel - trouble is, no writer thinks they've written a crappy novel, and that's the whole point: you can't tell yourself. So it would be the editor's job to be honest and say, look here, I don't think this can ever be publishable, and advise against a writing career. If more people turned to a freelancer before submission to agent or pub, perhaps those slush piles would be lower, and there'd be more room for the better stuff.

On the other hand, even if youi are told your novel is not publishable and cannot be made publishable, if you can afford it, why not still do the work on it, why not find out where you went wrong. You can learn an awful lot through working on it with an editor, and perhaps the next one WILL Be publishable.
I was lucky in that an agent took on my very first novel and gave me loads of advice on how to improve it. We worked on it for three years! That was three years of FREE editorial help. But who is prepared to do this kind of work with a new author, for free?
Finally, it could not be made publishable, but the work I did on it helped me enormously, and when I wrote the next one it was alreday much better from the outset.