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View Full Version : I'm getting sick and tired of this! (A rant)


Fractured_Chaos
07-06-2005, 01:16 AM
I am getting so sick and tired of non-thinking, low-browed, mouth-breathers telling me that if I DARE disagree with current government policy, I am therefore an "Anti-American Liberal", when these people don't even know what the hell they're talking about!

Let me explain the difference between "Conservative", and "Liberal".

Lesson 1: The Dictionary definitions of these words. This is the meanings of these words, in the most basic sense. Not the political sense:

Conservative: Avoiding excess; "a conservative estimate"

Liberal: Generous in amount; ample: "a liberal serving of potatoes"

Got it? Good.

Now, let's apply this to politics. We'll call this Lesson 2.

A Traditional Conservative is in favor of smaller government. Conservative Politicians traditionally vote to eliminate wasteful, and redundant possitions within the government. They traditionally vote to lower funds and benefits for welfare. The vote to cut SPENDING, and to reduce the national debt.

Traditional Conservatives are not nosey, either. They traditionally vote NOT to interfere in the policies of other sovereign nations. They're also for the decriminalization of marijuana, in favor of a woman's right to make her own choices (whether they agree with said choices personally, or not), and prefer NOT to know what's going on inside your bedroom. And why is that, you say? Because Conservatives feel that what personal choices you make, are no one's business, but your own...unless, and until those choices interfere with the lives of others.

Traditional Conservatives tend to favor and defend the Constitution, and -ALL- its Amendments. They also tend to favor equal opportunity, and treatment for all US Citizens. ALL of them. Because of that, they don't care much for quotas, or for Affirmative Action. They don't believe you deserve special favor because of your race, or gender. And they certainly don't think you deserve special favor because of your religion.

Most Conservatives are Christian, and live by the traditional Christian values. Which to some of you might seem contradictory compared to the above, but it's not. Remember, I also pointed out that they are not nosey, and interfering, either.

THAT, my friends, is a true Conservative.

Now, on to Liberals:

Take everything I said about Conservatives, and find its opposite, and that is a Liberal.

Liberals created Affirmative Action (which was a good idea, at the time is was implemented, but has outlived it's usefulness), they created Welfare. They are all for "Tax and spend" government, and making government bigger. Liberals think throwing money at anything is a good idea. Liberals are also nosey fsckers. They LIKE telling you how to live your life, and what choices you should be allowed to make.

They also tend to think the Constitution has outlived it's usefulness.

Take all that, and look at our current government. Take a look at the National Debt (http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/), as it is this very moment. Take a look at the push to amend the Constitution, to take away the rights of a segment of our society. Look at what's happening in Iraq. Take a look at the Current Death Toll (http://www.iraqbodycount.net/) of Iraqi Civillians. Take a look at the US Death Toll (http://www.ac.wwu.edu/%7Estephan/USfatalities.html) over there. These are our husbands, wives, sones, daughters, brothers, sisters, and friends who are dying over there. For what? So we can have a foothold in the ME, and make policy?

So, you know what? Far Left Liberals -ARE- Anti-America. Buit those of us who disagree with the current US Policies are NOT Liberal. We're the Conservatives.

Our current Commander and Thief, and his puppet-masters are the Anti-American Liberals.

I'm an American, I'm proud of being an Americvan, and as long as I still have breath left in me, I -WILL- continue to exersize my right to disagree with my government, and address my grieviences with them.

Now stick that in your pipe and smoke it.

robeiae
07-06-2005, 01:27 AM
You are an anti-American liberal.

(sorry, I couldn't resist, and I know you're not!!:kiss: )

Rob :)

P.S. I may reply in more detail, once my next batch of mango chutney is done cooking.

William Haskins
07-06-2005, 01:28 AM
I am getting so sick and tired of non-thinking, low-browed, mouth-breathers telling me that if I DARE disagree with current government policy, I am therefore an "Anti-American Liberal", when these people don't even know what the hell they're talking about!


maybe you should tell them that, instead of us? i mean, has anyone on AW called you this?

KTC
07-06-2005, 01:33 AM
It's so weird how Americans enjoy talking about politics? I have to stop and think just to remember who my Prime Minister is...In Canada Tim Hortons is the country's leader. They are very liberal with their coffee, and very conservative with their jelly filleds.

robeiae
07-06-2005, 01:36 AM
It's so weird how Americans enjoy talking about politics? I have to stop and think just to remember who my Prime Minister is...
Yes, that's what happens when there is meaningful participation...;)

Rob :)

KTC
07-06-2005, 01:42 AM
We participate. We drink the coffee.

James D. Macdonald
07-06-2005, 03:27 AM
Liberals think the Constitution has outlived its usefulness? Not any liberals I know.

I think you're thinking of the radical Right, there -- the America Taliban -- the people who, when their house of cards collapses, will be tried for treason.

Elincoln
07-06-2005, 03:44 AM
We participate. We drink the coffee.*Coughs out her soda, falls to the floor and gasps*

MacAllister
07-06-2005, 03:46 AM
...radical Right, there -- the America Taliban -- the people who, when their house of cards collapses, will be tried for treason. I'm okay with that.

robeiae
07-06-2005, 03:53 AM
They traditionally vote NOT to interfere in the policies of other sovereign nations.
I must disagree somewhat here. Conservativism in the U.S. is not, by defintion, isolationism. A true conservative, IMO, has an understanding of what true freedom is; this defintion begets an understanding of sovereignty that is not inconsistent with international meddling. Defense of the nation and the protection of its citizens are the paramount duties of the federal government. Proactive activity in this regard is even explicitly allowed for in the Constitution, as is proactive activity designed to curb international tyranny. (I am not defending Bush here, so don't assume I am trying to justify the Iraq invasion)

They're also for the decriminalization of marijuana,
You're stretching, I think. A true conservative need not be for this, anymore than he/she need be for legalizing opium.

And why is that, you say? Because Conservatives feel that what personal choices you make, are no one's business, but your own...unless, and until those choices interfere with the lives of others.
Caveat: it does not follow that conservatives are for the public pronouncement of personal activities, nor for laws that seek to force others to accept certain activities, nor for education designed to foster understanding of certain activities. (assume nothing, I'm talking in generalities)

Traditional Conservatives tend to favor and defend the Constitution, and -ALL- its Amendments.
Yes, but only with regard to original intent.

I think you have defined liberals quite nicely!

Rob :)

poetinahat
07-06-2005, 04:04 AM
Still trying to figure out, 12 years after arriving, why the Australian Liberal Party are the conservatives, and One Nation are the ones who want immigrants out!

Seriously, though, I'm glad I'm not there for the lock-step administration.

There's an anecdote from the Lincoln presidency wherein a Russian diplomat, in the Oval Office to speak with the President, looks at a newspaper containing an editorial highly critical of the Administration. He asks, "How can you allow this sort of thing?"

Lincoln replies, "Take that newspaper home with you. Tell people exactly where you found it, and let them know that democracy is alive and well."

(I'm paraphrasing, but I'll review it. I got it from The Little, Brown Book of Anecdotes -- an absolutely brilliant read, a paragraph at a time.)

robeiae
07-06-2005, 04:10 AM
Liberals think the Constitution has outlived its usefulness? Not any liberals I know.
Nor any liberals that I know, but many do think they can bend it (the Con.) to justify anything under the sun (and most things under the moon).

Rob :)

MacAllister
07-06-2005, 04:11 AM
"The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter." --Winston Churchill

William Haskins
07-06-2005, 04:26 AM
man, these political threads around here crack me up. if lightning stikes too close to any of these straw-men, we're in for one hell of a fire.

poetinahat
07-06-2005, 04:30 AM
man, these political threads around here crack me up. if lightning stikes too close to any of these straw-men, we're in for one hell of a fire.

"Oh, Dorothy, do you really think the Wizard will give me a heart?"

JustinoXXV
07-06-2005, 04:42 AM
The people Drgnlvr defines as conservatives are what people to today are libertarians. Libertarians are for a small government, and they would legalize drugs (at least the libertarians I know). Their arguments are legalization cut off a major source of funding for organized crime.

While libertarians and conservatives are not isolationists, the old school wouldn't try to fix the government of another nation to this degree. Bush I defeated Saddam Hussein, but chose not to try to remove him from power.

I agree with James when he says the radical right/Christian coalition (not to be confused with most people who are Christian) will self destruct.

William Haskins
07-06-2005, 04:52 AM
I think you're thinking of the radical Right, there -- the America Taliban -- the people who, when their house of cards collapses, will be tried for treason.

just out of curiosity, could you name some of those on the "radical right" of which you speak?

Sarita
07-06-2005, 05:34 AM
It's so weird how Americans enjoy talking about politics? I have to stop and think just to remember who my Prime Minister is.... I was just thinking that this morning.

Sara's brain: Wow, the board has been hopping with political rhetoric lately. WTF?

Sara's Logic: It's a hot topic, and writers are intelligent. They want to talk about it with other people who can debate intelligently and with a measure of decorum.
In Canada Tim Hortons is the country's leader. They are very liberal with their coffee, and very conservative with their jelly filleds. mmm, I love their maple pecan pastry thingy. Do they still have those? Yum...

brokenfingers
07-06-2005, 05:46 AM
Wow Sara, what a coincidence! I was thinking that today too!

Bill's brain: Hmmmmm... less politics, more sex.

Bill's logic: Oops, wrong forum!

William Haskins
07-06-2005, 05:54 AM
anyone else seeing the pro-affirmative action banner up top now? christ, that's hysterical!

(except, as soon as i went to the reply window with my name on it, it changed to "hell found me". not so funny...)

Sarita
07-06-2005, 06:00 AM
(except, as soon as i went to the reply window with my name on it, it changed to "hell found me". not so funny...)Don't feel bad. Same thing happened to me. Oh crap. Does that put me in your boat?

William Haskins
07-06-2005, 06:02 AM
yes, and we're now crossing the river styx.

sellthepharm
07-06-2005, 06:23 AM
Bad day, drgnlvr?

James D. Macdonald
07-06-2005, 08:11 AM
just out of curiosity, could you name some of those on the "radical right" of which you speak?

James Dobson, Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, Karl Rove, George W. Bush, John Ashcroft, and all of their friends.

William Haskins
07-06-2005, 08:22 AM
and which (or all?) of them will be tried to treason, and on what grounds exactly?

CaptainCanard
07-06-2005, 08:41 AM
Whoo, Boy. Last time I jumped into a political discussion in another thread, I started feeling like this chap:
http://www.captaincanard.com/rotatepicture/headinjurysmall.jpg

maestrowork
07-06-2005, 08:41 AM
Karl Rove and Ralph Reed... at least that would make me happy if those two were tried for treason...

JustinoXXV
07-06-2005, 12:10 PM
Somehow I don't think of Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfeld as the radical right. There are certain institutions, organizations, and individuals who are far to the right of these individuals.

Bush and company certainly have allied themselves with these individuals, when they needed their votes. But they've never totally given in to these guys either.

Bob Jones University, Reverend Faldwell, Pat Robertson, etc are what I think of as the radical right.

pepperlandgirl
07-06-2005, 12:16 PM
and which (or all?) of them will be tried to treason, and on what grounds exactly?
Karl Rove is probably the leak in the Plame case. http://msnbc.msn.com/id/8445696/site/newsweek/

I don't know if he'll be charged for treason (though I'm pretty sure revealing the identity of a covert CIA agent is classified as treason) but I really think Fitzgerald is angling for perjury charges at least.

James D. Macdonald
07-06-2005, 05:21 PM
Revealing the identity of a covert CIA officer is a federal crime, but not treason. Rove's treason is in other areas. Rove lying to a grand jury is another crime.

Let's add Alberto "I Love Torture" Gonzales to the radical Right group of traitors and war criminals. He should be facing an international tribunal, not being suggested for the Supreme Court.

James D. Macdonald
07-06-2005, 05:25 PM
and which (or all?) of them will be tried to treason, and on what grounds exactly?

All of them will be tried for treason, if not for war crimes.

What grounds? For attempting to subvert the Constitution, for lying to Congress, and for using public trust for private enrichment, just for starters.

James D. Macdonald
07-06-2005, 05:38 PM
Somehow I don't think of Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfeld as the radical right. There are certain institutions, organizations, and individuals who are far to the right of these individuals.

The fact that there are some people to the right of the gang of criminals in the White House doesn't make Bush and his chums moderates or anything close to it. They may even keep the farther-right fruitloops around to make themselves look good by comparison. Bush is still a radical bent on destroying the United States as we know it for his personal gain.

Did you see Bush standing up the other night claiming that the war in Iraq was somehow linked to the 9/11 attacks? That would almost be funny if so many people hadn't been killed and if America's reputation hadn't been left in tatters. Bush had been planning to invade Iraq long before the 9/11 attacks. He said so, in public, during a candidates' debate in Manchester, New Hampshire (Brit Hume moderating), ten months before the 2000 elections.

Fractured_Chaos
07-06-2005, 05:46 PM
Bad day, drgnlvr?

Yes. -.-

Sorry that my rant wasn't quite as coherent as it should have been, guys. I essentially went by the definitions I was raised with (who knows, maybe it's my family that was skrood up...wait a minute...I -know- my family is skrood up, never mind).

And no, no one here has called me Anti-American (except in jest, right Rob? Right?!).

I'm just so frustrated with people actually threatening me with the FBI because of my opinions of our current government. Do I think they'll show up at my door and haul me off to Gitmo? Not really. But zealots of any stripe make me very nervous, and there seems to be way too many of them around my parts lately.

At least I can count on you all to put me in my place with diplomacy and class. My apologies for using this place to vent. It was inappropriate.

But yes, yesterday I was getting out of my car (Actually, Sam's, since mine is still broken), at a fast food place (for a job interview). Some knuckle-dragging neanderthal saw the bumpersticker Sam has that says "No, No to War, Yes to Peace", and actually got into my face calling me a terrorist sympathiser, and an "Anti-American Liberal Commie". He even had the gall to write the tag number down!

I was literally backed up against the trunk of my car because of this guy. And this is not the first time this has happened to me, either.

Unfortunately, no one called the cops, and I was too shaken up to do it myself. I actually missed the interview because of it.

I'm not sure I want to work for a place that wouldn't even call the cops in a case like that. The place wasn't busy, and I was in full view of the people working the counter. And yes, I sat in my car for about 15 minutes, crying and shaking. No one bothered to see if I was alright, or anything.

By the time I could drive back home, I'd gone from being upset, to being downright infuriated. And because this isn't the first time something like this has happened, I'm also rather scared.

So once again, I'm very sorry.

Fractured_Chaos
07-06-2005, 05:49 PM
All of them will be tried for treason, if not for war crimes.

What grounds? For attempting to subvert the Constitution, for lying to Congress, and for using public trust for private enrichment, just for starters.

I pray you're right, Uncle Jim. I really do.

I don't see it happening, though. But if it does, I will personally send you a pic of me chewing on my shoe (I'm afraid I just don't have sharp enough teeth to actually eat it).

Unique
07-06-2005, 05:56 PM
I pray you're right, Uncle Jim. I really do.



me, too.

'beware the knock on the door.' It's closer than we think. ANYone, who doesn't believe that needs to pull their head out. Whether you believe or disbelieve - it's been predicted. By quite a few people in history.

We live in perilous times. 'Eat, drink and be merry....'

Thank God for term limits!

***drglvr - I'm sorry this happened to you. Now we know why you posted it.***

Fractured_Chaos
07-06-2005, 06:01 PM
Thank God for term limits!

You do know that a repeal of the 22nd Amendment is on the table right now, don't you?

I know that this comes up every so often, anyway, and that 99.9% of the time, no one really takes it seriously. But considering the current atmosphere in this country....makes you think :(

***drglvr - I'm sorry this happened to you. Now we know why you posted it.***

Thanks. But I should have waited until today.

But this isn't the first time I've gone off half-c*cked, and I doubt it'll be the last.

William Haskins
07-06-2005, 06:09 PM
drgnlvr,

i'm really sorry about your encounter. our country is extremely polarized these days, and there are knee-jerk a$sholes on both ends of the spectrum. you can't reason with such people; they are driven by propaganda and personal bias.

and james -- while corruption occurs far too frequently in government, i personally am sick and tired of irresponsible cries of treason. when adults can't disagree with policy, or separate real incidences of corruption or malfeasance from treason (for which there is an extraordinarily high legal threshold) and insist on using hot-headed rhetoric, we set an pathetic example for the next generation of voters.

then we lament the lack of participation.

it's really ridiculous. it's ridiculous when it comes from the right saying michael moore or dick durbin are traitors and it's just as silly coming from the left... james dobson will be tried for treason? give me a fvckin' break...

maestrowork
07-06-2005, 06:29 PM
I've been called anti-American, a traitor and a "commie" back when Bush started the Iraq War and I was one of those who protested against it (yeah, went to a rally). By who? By someone who otherwise seemed like a nice person, but when it came to Bush and his policies, he was a fanatic supporter. He clearly had some idol worshipping going on...

And you know what? I can't change people's mind, least of all his. All I could say was "screw you" and walk away.

Unique
07-06-2005, 06:35 PM
By who? By someone who otherwise seemed like a nice person, but when it came to Bush and his policies, he was a fanatic supporter.

And you know what? I can't change people's mind, least of all his. All I could say was "screw you" and walk away.


Maestro, dear Maestro. My family - my otherwise normal, upstanding, intelligent and educated family are supporters. How do you think that makes me feel? We can't both be right. Well, I suppose we could.....if you split hairs.

That's why I keep saying, 'this country hasn't been so divided since the Civil War' It's awful! This polarization is taking all the values I grew up with and it's rolling them in the dirt. It's driving me bats, I tell you.

And it's very difficult to say, '**** you' to your family. They think GWB is the next best thing to Christ and I think he's the Anti-Christ. EEEEK.

William Haskins
07-06-2005, 06:39 PM
They think GWB is the next best thing to Christ and I think he's the Anti-Christ.

start your reconciliation by realizing you're both wrong.

Unique
07-06-2005, 06:44 PM
start your reconciliation by realizing you're both wrong.

well, thanks, Will.

I hope you're right!

mostly we don't talk about it. It makes for better harmony.

MacAllister
07-06-2005, 07:17 PM
The current atmosphere is pretty tense and ugly, Lorrie. I'm really sorry that happened to you.

I'm in Seattle, a pretty liberal city, right? Most of my gay friends have removed their pink-triangle, pride flag, and human-rights alliance bumper stickers because of either incidents like you describe, or because they're tired of having their cars vandalized.

*sigh*

maestrowork
07-06-2005, 08:16 PM
I don't really mind if people disagree or we're polarized... that's just human. BUT, I do have a problem when people start calling others traitors and un-American, etc. when they don't agree with each other. I think part of what attracted me to America is the fact we're free to make our own decisions, live our own lives, have our own believes, and our freedom and rights to speak up against our government or policies. That to me is the American way.

Unfortunately, I think a lot of people in this country now forget what being American really means...

robeiae
07-06-2005, 08:27 PM
All of them will be tried for treason, if not for war crimes.

What grounds? For attempting to subvert the Constitution, for lying to Congress, and for using public trust for private enrichment, just for starters.
Section. 3. Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court. The Congress shall have Power to declare the Punishment of Treason, but no Attainder of Treason shall work Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture except during the Life of the Person attainted.

Ahem, Treason is not an arbitrary term or crime; you can't bring charges against someone for Treason just because you don't like their politics or policies.

Rob :)

Fractured_Chaos
07-06-2005, 08:35 PM
Section. 3. Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court. The Congress shall have Power to declare the Punishment of Treason, but no Attainder of Treason shall work Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture except during the Life of the Person attainted.

Ahem, Treason is not an arbitrary term or crime; you can't bring charges against someone for Treason just because you don't like their politics or policies.

Rob :)

Sounds like our commander in thief and his puppet masters fit. After all, -WHO- attacked us on 9/11? Not Iraqis, but Saudis. -WHO- is funding terrorist groups in the ME? The House of Saud.

And -WHO- is our POTUS holding hands with? (And no, it's not -just- the hand-holding, but the fact that our government is practically sleeping with the Saudis).

Sounds alot like treason to me.

robeiae
07-06-2005, 08:35 PM
But yes, yesterday I was getting out of my car (Actually, Sam's, since mine is still broken), at a fast food place (for a job interview). Some knuckle-dragging neanderthal saw the bumpersticker Sam has that says "No, No to War, Yes to Peace", and actually got into my face calling me a terrorist sympathiser, and an "Anti-American Liberal Commie". He even had the gall to write the tag number down!
Bone-heads are everywhere.

This reminds me a few lines from an old Charlie Daniels Song, "Uneasy Rider":

You may not know it but this man's a spy
He's an undercover agent for the FBI
And he's been sent down here to infiltrate the Ku Klux Klan...

Would you believe this has gone as far
As tearing Wallace stickers of the bumpers of cars
And he voted for George McGovern for President!

Why he's a friend a them long-haired-hippe-type-pinko-fags
I betcha he's even gotta commie flag
Tacked up on the wall of his garage...

Rob :)

robeiae
07-06-2005, 08:39 PM
Sounds like our commander in thief and his puppet masters fit. After all, -WHO- attacked us on 9/11? Not Iraqis, but Saudis. -WHO- is funding terrorist groups in the ME? The House of Saud.

And -WHO- is our POTUS holding hands with? (And no, it's not -just- the hand-holding, but the fact that our government is practically sleeping with the Saudis).

Sounds alot like treason to me.
Sorry, it has to be an overt act...it doesn't fit, no matter how much you want it to. Don't start bending the Constitution, or you can't be a true Conservative! If you feel impeachable offenses have been committed, and federal crimes as well, that's an entirely different thing. But there is no treason here...there just isn't.

Rob

NicoleJLeBoeuf
07-06-2005, 08:40 PM
Unfortunately, there are those who believe that any criticism of or opposition to our President counts as "giving [Enemies] aid and comfort." Thus, in their minds, anyone who doesn't fully support Bush's actions is guilty of treason. I couldn't give you a certain accounting of that logic, since I don't share it, but I think it has something to do with the idea that "the terrorists" (scare quotes to indicate how loosely the term has come to be used, referring to everyone from the 9/11 hijackers down to the last infant citizen of Iraq) monitor all our public speech and derive some sense of satisfaction and support from Those Nasty Anti-American Liberals What Hate Our Blessed President™.

I've been on the receiving end of the associated name-calling more times than is pleasant to recall.

I'm trying to remember--and I'm not certain I can find it easily, but it was (natch) discussed at The Daily Kos during the election run-up--exactly which speaker it was who, during the Republican convention, came bloody near to calling John Kerry a traitor simply because he was running for President. "How dare those Democrats run an opposing candidate during an election year when we're at war? They must hate America!"

William Haskins
07-06-2005, 08:44 PM
commander in thief

just a quick tip. if you don't want to be lumped in with the more lunatic fringe of the far left, you might want to consider making an argument without using their silly jargon.

i've yet to see any evidence that the hijackers (saudi though they were) were acting on behalf on the house of saud. they had pledged their allegiance to international jihad-ism, and even a cursory review of available information reveals that the jihadists see the saudi royal family as... ahem... traitors to islam.

robeiae
07-06-2005, 08:47 PM
Thus, in their minds, anyone who doesn't fully support Bush's actions is guilty of treason. I couldn't give you a certain accounting of that logic, since I don't share it, but I think it has something to do with the idea that "the terrorists" (scare quotes to indicate how loosely the term has come to be used, referring to everyone from the 9/11 hijackers down to the last infant citizen of Iraq) monitor all our public speech and derive some sense of satisfaction and support from Those Nasty Anti-American Liberals What Hate Our Blessed President™.
Once again, bone-heads...this is just silly, but it is characteristic of people who live and breath on sound-bites:

You're a traitor if you don't support the war
You're a fascist if you support Bush
You're a commie if you voted for Kerry

I dare say that 95% of the people who make these statements, and others like them, do not know the proper definitions of the bold-faced words, and similar ones. The other 5% know the definitions, and know they are using the terms incorrectly, but do so anyway since it serves an agenda.

Rob :)

maestrowork
07-06-2005, 08:48 PM
i agree... don't be hasty to point fingers at the saud... we'll be no better than those who keep pointing 9/11 at the iraqis or saddam.

maestrowork
07-06-2005, 08:49 PM
Once again, bone-heads...this is just silly, but it is characteristic of people who live and breath on sound-bites:

You're a traitor if you don't support the war
You're a fascist if you support Bush
You're a commie if you voted for Kerry

I dare say that 95% of the people who make these statements, and others like them, do not know the proper definitions of the bold-faced words, and similar ones. The other 5% know the definitions, and know they using the terms incorrectly, but do so anyone since it serves an agenda.

Rob :)

you'll be surprised (or not) how many of those people listen to Rush... and they're paying him $ millions to spew nonsense... *shudders*

robeiae
07-06-2005, 08:52 PM
you'll be surprised (or not) how many of those people listen to Rush... and they're paying him $ millions to spew nonsense... *shudders*
What the f* have you got against Rush?? I'm listening to "Bastille Day" on Chronicles at this very moment.

Rob :)

NicoleJLeBoeuf
07-06-2005, 08:54 PM
Once again, bone-heads...this is just silly, but it is characteristic of people who live and breathe on sound-bites:

You're a traitor if you don't support the war
You're a fascist if you support Bush
You're a commie if you voted for Kerry

Or, dare I say it... "You think the Constitution has outlived its usefulness, if you're a Liberal."

(To be fair, Liberals have as much cause to accuse Conservatives of that, as vice versa. How much cause? Well, excepting the case of that portion of the Radical Religious Right who actually do want to replace the Constitution with Old Testament Law--Google "Dominionists" for more information--excepting them, not as much cause as Libs or Cons tend to think.)

Hot-button, emotion-loaded, demonize-your-opponent arguments rarely get anywhere useful. I share your frustration.

MacAllister
07-06-2005, 09:00 PM
(scare quotes to indicate how loosely the term has come to be used, referring to everyone from the 9/11 hijackers down to the last infant citizen of Iraq) monitor all our public speech and derive some sense of satisfaction and support from Those Nasty Anti-American Liberals What Hate Our Blessed President™.
oh yeah--and "terrorist" has been bandied about by members of this administration to mean everyone from Green Peace, the NEA (by Education Secretary Paige, for cryin' out loud!), and the rabble who have the nerve to protest the administrations policy by taking to the streets with signs.

The word itself is taking on wider and wider rhetorical usage. That's what scares me. The interpretation of "terrorist" is becoming quite fluid, and since the prosecution of terrorists seems to be essentially unregulated--except by the Supreme Court (and we ALL know what's about to happen there)--it's not a large jump to the days of sudden disappearances that ordinary citizens know better than to ask about.

The current political rhetoric is all about redefining words to mean their opposite--how else does "Family Values" and "Christian" come to mean we should bomb sovereign nations into the stone age, pre-emptively? Torture, imprison without charge, subjugate the next generation of women with a wholesale assault on their reproductive rights...

What on earth happened to the Christianity of "Blessed are the Peacemakers" and "As you do to the least of these, you do also to me"?

I could list a bunch of quotes by people smarter than I, who say it could damn WELL happen here--history proves it so. All it takes is enough apathy, denial, and outright socio-political naivety on the part of American citizens.

</rant>

NicoleJLeBoeuf
07-06-2005, 09:01 PM
What the f* have you got against Rush?? I'm listening to "Bastille Day" on Chronicles at this very moment.Bwahaha... whoo!

I used to have a bumper sticker that said "RUSH is a band, dammit." I used to have extras, actually, since the guy who had them printed had a lot left-over. Dunno where they got off to. Haven't been able to find them since the last move.

Loved that bumper sticker. Wished I could also attach it to my T-shirts. How someone could see a T-shirt with the ROLL THE BONES album cover art on the front and the list of songs on the back and somehow think it meant I was a Limbaugh fan, I do not know.

aka eraser
07-06-2005, 09:04 PM
Several years ago I was an occasional visitor to a room on IRC called American Politics. It was a lively forum populated by passionate, intelligent people, mostly, but not all, Americans. I'd taken an interest in American politics since the Vietnam/Watergate era.

As time went on the debate got more and more heated, the rhetoric uglier. I PM-d my thoughts to a couple of other non-Americans. We agreed that the polarization we were witnessing was becoming frightening. These were friends, neighbours, fellow citizens, and they spent hours heaping invective on each other, day after day, week after week.

I left for calmer online climes but have stopped in every few months since. Nothing has changed. It's still Us vs Them and no attempt to find a middle ground. If anything, the two sides seem more entrenched in their positions - more hostile to the other.

It's more than disheartening for this interested observer, it's unnerving.

Many citizens of the world are fearful of America. I fear for her now.

maestrowork
07-06-2005, 09:06 PM
Dammit. (RE: Rush)

maestrowork
07-06-2005, 09:10 PM
Divided we fall.

Mr. GW "Uniter" Bush had a brief moment of victory after 9/11. We all cheered him on. Yes, even the liberals. We were so ready to put aside our differences and stand behind our president.

IMHO, he really blew it. Big time.

(During the 2004 election... I have NEVER, in my life, seen so much venom spewed by citizens on both sides... you were talking about friends and families who turned on each other. It was truly scary)

I'm still waiting to see how Mr. Bush is going to unite us.

robeiae
07-06-2005, 09:12 PM
--how else does "Family Values" and "Christian" come to mean we should bomb sovereign nations into the stone age, pre-emptively?
Leaving aside the other objects of your displeasure, let's look at this one:
Oddly enough, the failures of the Iraq War, IMO, can be largely attributed to the admin's desire to not bomb Iraq into the stone-age. The "Shock and Awe" campaign was conceived with a secondary goal of minimizing civilian casualties and damage to infrastructure. Compar it to Hiroshima, or the fire bombing of Dresden, or the napalm runs in Vietnam.

Moreover, you have used another term which I think is rarely understood: sovereign. What constitutes sovereignty? Can a totalitarian or authoritarian regime be a sovereign nation? Is the mere possession of sufficient force the only condition needed for sovereignty? Who is sovereign in Kashmir? In Afghanistan? Perhaps interantional recognition is the key. Lovely, the German invasion of Poland was therefore okay, I guess, as was the granting of Soviet control by the Allies to Estonia, Romania, et al (much to the general population's disgust). Personally, I think sovereign nations can only exist when the government is a product of a popular mandate, but maybe that's just me...:kiss:

Rob :)

Fractured_Chaos
07-06-2005, 09:13 PM
Bone-heads are everywhere.

This reminds me a few lines from an old Charlie Daniels Song, "Uneasy Rider":

You may not know it but this man's a spy
He's an undercover agent for the FBI
And he's been sent down here to infiltrate the Ku Klux Klan...

Would you believe this has gone as far
As tearing Wallace stickers of the bumpers of cars
And he voted for George McGovern for President!

Why he's a friend a them long-haired-hippe-type-pinko-fags
I betcha he's even gotta commie flag
Tacked up on the wall of his garage...

Rob :)

Ironic, since he recently wrote a tirade about the lack of support for Bush, and our involvement in Iraq.

Excuse me....several.


July 1, 2005 (http://www.charliedaniels.com/soapbox/soapbox.asp?id=57)

May 6, 2005 (http://www.charliedaniels.com/soapbox/soapbox.asp?id=41)

February 14, 2005 (http://www.charliedaniels.com/soapbox/soapbox.asp?id=16)

(And because I didn't feel like going through every single post he made, some older posts, back when we got ourselves into this disgusting quagmire)

Dec. 6, 2002 (http://www.charliedaniels.com/soapbox/02/229.html)

Eh, just read them yourself (http://www.charliedaniels.com/soapbox/soapbox.asp), if you can stomach some of it.

MacAllister
07-06-2005, 09:13 PM
Oh--not according to Karl Rove, Ray.We all cheered him on. Yes, even the liberals. We were so ready to put aside our differences and stand behind our president.

On another note, about "it could never happen here":
From today's Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/05/AR2005070501669.html?referrer=email&referrer=email)The document acknowledges, for instance, plans to team military intelligence analysts with civilian law enforcement to identify and track suspected terrorists. It also recognizes an expanded role for the National Guard in preparing to deal with the aftermath of terrorist attacks. And it asserts the president's authority to deploy ground combat forces on U.S. territory "to intercept and defeat threats."

maestrowork
07-06-2005, 09:14 PM
Compar it to Hiroshima, or the fire bombing of Dresden, or the napalm runs in Vietnam.


I realy don't think we can compare Iraq to Hiroshima or Vietnam...

Unique
07-06-2005, 09:15 PM
Divided we fall.<<<The most important point to remember.

We all cheered him on. <<<< Not me, I'm a firm believer in not biting off more than you can chew. (I also remember Vietnam.)

IMHO, he really blew it. Big time.<<<<aye-yup. And now we all have to pay for it..

Fractured_Chaos
07-06-2005, 09:16 PM
Sorry, it has to be an overt act...it doesn't fit, no matter how much you want it to. Don't start bending the Constitution, or you can't be a true Conservative! If you feel impeachable offenses have been committed, and federal crimes as well, that's an entirely different thing. But there is no treason here...there just isn't.

Rob

Eh, I'm actually neither conservative, nor liberal, but somewhere in between.

And I don't think it's too hasty. I'm not the one who will be investigating it, nor prosecuting it, but seems to me there is more than enough evidence to cause enough suspicion to require an investigation of treason.

Sarita
07-06-2005, 09:16 PM
It's more than disheartening for this interested observer, it's unnerving. Many citizens of the world are fearful of America. I fear for her now. Frank, this is such an interesting comment. Thanks for sharing. I'm 28 and until recently I was not politically inclined. I'm still working on formulating my opinions and understanding all of the information that we're bombarded with constantly. The more I know, the more I understand why I've been avoiding politics. It is scary to think that the country is SO divided. What was the vote? 49 to 47 %?

maestrowork
07-06-2005, 09:17 PM
or 58 to 56 million.

Very close.

Fractured_Chaos
07-06-2005, 09:18 PM
What the f* have you got against Rush?? I'm listening to "Bastille Day" on Chronicles at this very moment.

Rob :)

Wrong Rush :ROFL:

I think he meant Limbaugh.

Unique
07-06-2005, 09:23 PM
I do have the answer for both Iraq AND Afghanistan.....but I've been holding back....

Fractured_Chaos
07-06-2005, 09:24 PM
Or, dare I say it... "You think the Constitution has outlived its usefulness, if you're a Liberal."

(To be fair, Liberals have as much cause to accuse Conservatives of that, as vice versa. How much cause? Well, excepting the case of that portion of the Radical Religious Right who actually do want to replace the Constitution with Old Testament Law--Google "Dominionists" for more information--excepting them, not as much cause as Libs or Cons tend to think.)

Hot-button, emotion-loaded, demonize-your-opponent arguments rarely get anywhere useful. I share your frustration.

And you're right. In my frustration, and anger at being attacked yesterday, I fell into the same thing.

I did apologize, though.

robeiae
07-06-2005, 09:24 PM
or 58 to 56 million.

Very close.
Not to throw napalm on the fire, but go back and look at 1860 returns...(and the distinct geographic divisions that carried the day)

Rob :)

MacAllister
07-06-2005, 09:24 PM
Rob said:Oddly enough, the failures of the Iraq War, IMO, can be largely attributed to the admin's desire to not bomb Iraq into the stone-age. The "Shock and Awe" campaign was conceived with a secondary goal of minimizing civilian casualties and damage to infrastructure. "Shock and Awe" as a military strategy (http://www.shockandawe.com/index1.htm) is interesting, indeed. All that stuff we hear on the news about "winning the hearts and minds" of Iraqi citizens is an extension of the expressed "Shock and Awe" goal of the establishment of rapid dominance.

Even more interesting are the references and language use in the study paper that obliquely suggest domestic political and law-enforcement applications.


:) I'll withdraw my intemperate use of "sovereign"--I think the argument stands, regardless.

Unique
07-06-2005, 09:28 PM
I do have the answer for both Iraq AND Afghanistan.....but I've been holding back....


ARM THE WOMEN:guns:


if the population truly wishes to be free, it will happen in short order. Otherwise, leave them alone. It's an internal problem.

NicoleJLeBoeuf
07-06-2005, 09:30 PM
And you're right. In my frustration, and anger at being attacked yesterday, I fell into the same thing.

I did apologize, though.Sorry. I hadn't gone back and read the whole thread. Didn't mean to beat on the deceased equine at your expense.

robeiae
07-06-2005, 09:31 PM
Rob said: "Shock and Awe" as a military strategy (http://www.shockandawe.com/index1.htm) is interesting, indeed. All that stuff we hear on the news about "winning the hearts and minds" of Iraqi citizens is an extension of the expressed "Shock and Awe" goal of the establishment of rapid dominance.

Even more interesting are the references and language use in the study paper that obliquely suggest domestic political and law-enforcement applications.
Good link...but the entire program was/is poorly conceived. War is total war; it always has been. I suggest reading Sherman's memoirs.

Rob :)

MacAllister
07-06-2005, 09:34 PM
What stuns me--really, really stuns me--is how most of my life, even during the Reagan years--I've been comfortably moderate on almost every political issue, from abortion to guns to the environment.

The center has moved SO far to the right, in the last few years, that NOW I'm one of the tinfoil-beanie, conspiracy-theorist crowd. Even though MY beliefs haven't changed very much.

It's frankly appalling.

robeiae
07-06-2005, 09:36 PM
The center has moved SO far to the right, in the last few years, that NOW I'm one of the tinfoil-beanie, conspiracy-theorist crowd. Even though MY beliefs haven't changed very much.

It's frankly appalling.
Because you don't look good in beanies??

Rob :)

Fractured_Chaos
07-06-2005, 09:38 PM
Sorry. I hadn't gone back and read the whole thread. Didn't mean to beat on the deceased equine at your expense.

That's okay. I don't think he could feel it. ;)

MacAllister
07-06-2005, 09:38 PM
Because you don't look good in beanies?? :ROFL: No--because I insist on the freedom to don or doff it, at my discretion.

Sarita
07-06-2005, 09:42 PM
Mac, we were just talking about this in my Speech Class. When O'Connor became a SC. Justice back in the Regan administration, she was considered a conservative. But it was her vote that did the swinging on major issues, prompting many to call her decisions "liberal". Strange, that.

MacAllister
07-06-2005, 09:45 PM
When O'Connor became a SC. Justice back in the Regan administration, she was a conservative. But it was her vote that did the swinging on major issues, prompting many to call her decisions "liberal". Strange, that. O'Connor's vote HAS actually moved slightly towards the center, over the years, Sara--her position on abortion, for instance, became much more moderate.

But I'm still utterly gobsmacked when I hear her called a moderate outright, though. And calling her a liberal defies the imagination.

robeiae
07-06-2005, 09:51 PM
Actually, I think the center is exactly where it belongs...in the middle, and I'm not being obnoxious. The voting majority is generally moderate, but the rhetoric used has become increasingly devisive on both sides. Because such rhetoric plays better, it is what the media presents to the public...no one wants to hear a moderate republican debate a moderate democrat (or so the media assumes). Thus the media pushes the extremists to the forefront. Fred and Ethel have little info to base voting decisions on when they rely on the media, so they go with what theey perceive as the lesser of two evils. Unfortunate? Yes. Fixable? Probably not. Workable? Yes--in time the Pendulum will swing and the center will seem to have moved too far left (from the moderate's point of view), that is if history is any indication of this process.

Rob :)

MacAllister
07-06-2005, 10:00 PM
Oh, I dearly hope that the pendulum will swing back, Rob...As it stands right now, John Kerry's politics are more conservative than Nixon's were--

I just want to be sure I do my part to give that pendulum a little push...

BradyH1861
07-06-2005, 10:02 PM
I have tried to be good and stay out of the discussion, but I will throw in my .08 cents worth. We face an equal danger from those on the far right and those on the far left. But most of us are in the middle. Who says we have to vote for the pundits that the two parties put forth? I'm sorry, but Kerry vs. Bush was not my idea of choice. They were both dangerous in their own ways.

I am just waiting to be elected King....then all will be right with the world. Wait, you don't actually get elected King do you? Oh well. I'll stick to my goal of being the Pope. But I'm married. Darnit! I'll have to figure out what plan C is then.

I believe it was Jefferson who said "I weep for my country because I know that God is just." (or something along those lines)

Brady H.

robeiae
07-06-2005, 10:05 PM
I am just waiting to be elected King....then all will be right with the world. Wait, you don't actually get elected King do you? Oh well. I'll stick to my goal of being the Pope. But I'm married. Darnit! I'll have to figure out what plan C is then.
You can be Master of your Domain.

Rob :)

MacAllister
07-06-2005, 10:10 PM
You can be Master of your Domain. ...especially once women can't obtain adequate birth control or legal abortions, anymore...

William Haskins
07-06-2005, 10:10 PM
just a quick note about the contention that everyone ("liberals included") stood behind bush after 9-11:

i directed a short documentary in november 2001, and there was already a virulently anti-bush, anti-war movement in place who found the policy of invading afghanistan and overthrowing the taliban was aggressive imperialism.

the anti-war sentiment that became shared by many after the war in iraq began was not spontaneous or organic, it was an extension of a brand of activism long since set in motion. that's certainly not saying that anyone who spoke against the war on either front did so for unpatriotic or anti-american reasons, but it would be a borderline myth to say that the anti-war movement sprung up when bush "took things too far" by extending the war into iraq.

there are, frankly, organizations devoted to agendas quite separate from our current war on terror that have co-opted the anti-war movement for their own purposes.

MacAllister
07-06-2005, 10:13 PM
GAAAHHHhhhhh!!! Are you guys getting the "Join the Vast Right-Wing Conspiracy" (http://www.rightwingconspiracy.org/cgi-bin/store/commerce.cgi?refer=talkradio728) google ad????


:roll:

Not suggesting anything subversive, but don't they get charged for every click-through...?

robeiae
07-06-2005, 10:16 PM
No, Haskins is here...I'm getting "Hell Found Me"

Rob :)

BradyH1861
07-06-2005, 10:17 PM
You can be Master of your Domain.

Rob :)

Well, I think I will open a bait and tackle store. The sign out front will read:

Bait and Tackle Store
Brady, owner and Master Baiter

(ducking from the rotten eggs, tomatoes, etc that I know will now be thrown my way)

Oh, and FYI, our legislature here in Texas had a public hearing yesterday on a proposed amendment to our state constitution that would prohibit a city from taking private land for private use. Just thought I'd pass that along. Property rights are still sacred in Texas, at least for now.

Brady H.

MacAllister
07-06-2005, 10:17 PM
No, Haskins is here...I'm getting "Hell Found Me" That's just EERY!

Unique
07-06-2005, 10:19 PM
GAAAHHHhhhhh!!! Are you guys getting the "Join the Vast Right-Wing Conspiracy" (http://www.rightwingconspiracy.org/cgi-bin/store/commerce.cgi?refer=talkradio728) google ad????


:roll:

Not suggesting anything subversive, but don't they get charged for every click-through...?

Huh. Mine says, 'We have a problem. Bring your swords.'

(Not my personal choice of weapons, but if that's all I can have, I'll take it.

mdmkay
07-06-2005, 10:27 PM
I'll continue to stand by my soapbox that people come up with really good ideas every day that totally go awry everytime the goverment becomes involved, or for that matter, they let in people who think they know what's best for other people.

That's when things become dangerous.

World Peace is a perfect example

My skin just crawls everytime I hear the phrase Homeland Security because we all know how badly that's going to get f##ked up

Sarita
07-06-2005, 10:36 PM
No, Haskins is here...I'm getting "Hell Found Me" Mine hasn't changed from that "Hell Found Me" business in days. I might need to bring a little happiness to my posts. Dancing bananas perhaps? Nah...

Fractured_Chaos
07-06-2005, 10:44 PM
GAAAHHHhhhhh!!! Are you guys getting the "Join the Vast Right-Wing Conspiracy" (http://www.rightwingconspiracy.org/cgi-bin/store/commerce.cgi?refer=talkradio728) google ad????


:roll:

Not suggesting anything subversive, but don't they get charged for every click-through...?

Nope, I get "Hell found me". :ROFL:

William Haskins
07-06-2005, 10:52 PM
welcome to my world.

Sheryl Nantus
07-06-2005, 11:42 PM
I'm sorry, but Kerry vs. Bush was not my idea of choice. They were both dangerous in their own ways.

being Canadian and down here for the past five years, I've had the opportunity to look at your politics from a relatively unbiased POV since Canada doesn't really follow the US politics other than the big election and how much tax you want to put on our lumber...

and I have to admit, I turned to my husband after the last election and said "Can you explain how the Democrats couldn't find anyone BETTER than John Kerry to run?" - I can almost believe the conspiracy theory that they intended to lose to set up Hillary Clinton for the 2008 run...

why?

well, to these uninformed eyes (and I'll admit it upfront) Kerry seemed to have nothing more than an anti-Bush campaign - and after over two decades of seeing this technique failing to unseat the Liberal Party in Canada, I knew it wasn't going to work. You can't run on what you dislike about the other guy, you have to run on what YOU are going to do. And as far as bringing up the entire war record thang... my hubby, a Gulf War vet with a few sparklies on his record, was plain embarassed to see that this old, OLD news (as in, almost before our time) was being dragged out again as some sort of news flash.

the lesser of two evils? Maybe... but you Americans weren't getting a heck of a choice last time around.

*moves off to hide behind maple tree*

;)

BradyH1861
07-07-2005, 12:01 AM
Sheryl,

I think you pretty much hit the nail on the head. That is exactly how I felt about last election. I was in quite a quandry. I didn't and don't particularly like Bush. But I didn't and don't particularly like Kerry either. Our politics have become polarized. So what did I do? (voted Libertarian of course!) As an observer from north of the border, your insight is particularly valuable, at least in my opinion.

At this point I will throw in an eh! and an aboot to show kinship with our Canadian brethren.

Brady H.

NicoleJLeBoeuf
07-07-2005, 12:25 AM
Mine hasn't changed from that "Hell Found Me" business in days.And have you written a story that starts with that sentence yet?

Sarita
07-07-2005, 12:39 AM
And have you written a story that starts with that sentence yet? Nah, my life story wouldn't interest readers.

JustinoXXV
07-07-2005, 12:39 AM
There's absolutely no evidence that the House of Saud ordered an attack on the United States itself.

Has the Saudi government funded fundamentalist groups in the past? Yes. And Saddam Hussein gave $25,000 to the families of the terrorists who homicide bombed and killed Israelis. The United States and other nations (including Saudi Arabia) gave funding to the Afghan freedom fighters, who would later become the Taliban.

I don't like the idea of people attacking using the Saudis, or even their government, to attack Bush. Since when it is a crime to do business in Saudi Arabia? THe average American drives a car and many drive SUVs. Aren't people are that we need OIL to refine into gasoline? So then it's the public whose really transferring money to the Middle East, by their own choices. (especially when they by gas guzzlers like SUVs).

It kind of reminds me of people complaining about work being offshored to China or India. These same people rush to by everything at Wal Mart because it's cheap. Well, one way to lower costs is to move over to certain Asian markets. Some of the very people complaining about certain economic or political changes are the very ones contributing to it.

And don't get me wrong, people have the freedom to make whatever purchse they want to. I just don't like the idea of people trying to blame all the percieved evil in the country and in the world on one man or even one government.

"I'll continue to stand by my soapbox that people come up with really good ideas every day that totally go awry everytime the goverment becomes involved, or for that matter, they let in people who think they know what's best for other people."

People came up with the idea for vaccination. The government got involved and it did not go awry. The government originally created this internet we're on. It never fell apart. Government regulators oversea aviation, telecommunication, banking, and a host of other industries without them going awry.

The government has been involved in education and in making all children ages 5 to 16 go to school. This hasn't gone awry.

The very people complaining how awful the government is will be the first ones to call for police if attacked or if they need them.

While obviously the government is needed, that doesn't mean we need a totalitarian government. But saying government=bad is just silly.

MacAllister
07-07-2005, 02:45 AM
errr...I'm pretty certain no one DID say government=bad.

The government has been involved in education and in making all children ages 5 to 16 go to school. This hasn't gone awry. That's HIGHLY debatable, actually...

poetinahat
07-07-2005, 02:56 AM
A conservative is a liberal who's been mugged;
A liberal is a conservative who's lost his job.
-- unknown

robeiae
07-07-2005, 03:02 AM
"If you're not Liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not Conservative when you're 35, you have no brain."--Winston Churchill (attributed)

Rob :)

NicoleJLeBoeuf
07-07-2005, 03:23 AM
Nah, my life story wouldn't interest readers.Oof! If your life story begins with that sentence, I bet someone'll find it interesting...

I actually did take a stab at it. Took about fifteen minutes to babble out a short-short that may have some rewrite potential. Go me!

maestrowork
07-07-2005, 05:00 AM
BTW, crude oil is at $61 now. And we were SO upset when it hit $50 not too long ago...

William Haskins
07-07-2005, 05:08 AM
be like bush and ride a bike

maestrowork
07-07-2005, 05:26 AM
don't you stand in my way when i ride my bike!

mdmkay
07-07-2005, 08:54 AM
"I'll continue to stand by my soapbox that people come up with really good ideas every day that totally go awry everytime the goverment becomes involved, or for that matter, they let in people who think they know what's best for other people."

People came up with the idea for vaccination. The government got involved and it did not go awry. The government originally created this internet we're on. It never fell apart. Government regulators oversea aviation, telecommunication, banking, and a host of other industries without them going awry.





To begin with I didn't mean that comment as saying that government is bad. As for you're response to my statement Justino....my first response was....where have you been?

When I use the word awry....I didn't mean you to assume that it automatically meant bad....but the issues do become clouded and more complicated.........even something as simple as vaccinations....try getting a kid into public school without all his/her vaccinations even if you have a doctor's statement stating that the child should not have them....due to autoimmune defiencies, previous allergic reactions...etc. {I won't even bring up religious or parental preferences}(don't try and mess with me I was a RN and trust me I know from where I speak on this particular subject). If you really want to know what I was thinking about when I wrote that statement is Right to Life.....I would love to be on their side...it started out as a good idea until they got so darn radical and decided they could decide for everyone else what was best for them. Saving a life at the cost of bombing a clinic or shooting a doctor doesn't set real well with me. That and government of a "free" nation taking so much interest in legislating personal choice issues to the point of being rediculous...it's illegal to show tobacco commercials on tv but we'll romantacize and advertise the heck out of alcohol........like that doesn't have any second hand effects........

oops went on a rant when I only meant to clarify a point....sorry.