Difficuly writing love scenes-any suggestions

[ANNIE]

I have a difficult time writing the loves scenes in my novel. This is'nt a romance per say, however this scene is an intrical part of the plot. I was hoping someone out there might be able to give me a little insite.
Just a little background- my protaganist is a young man who has been who has been brutally abused both physically and sexually from the age of five.
Here is a small passage of the scene;

Walking into her room was the single bravest thing he had ever done. Derry opened his eyes and saw her in the shadows. She tok his breath away and scared him down to the depths of his soul. She asked for nothing and gave him everything he had ever wanted but knew he couldn't have. What was he supposed to do with the feelings she had brought to life inside of him? That part of him was dead; it had died a long time ago.

He shouldn't be here; he needed to leave but couldn't seem to make his feet move in that direction. All he do was stare as the moonlight washed over her. Her hair curled dangeroulsy around her face as he heard her whisper his name and sudenly he knew there would be no turning back. He swallowed down his fear and took another step toward her.

She looked at him and he couldn't look away - he didn't want to. 'She's the one' his mother had told him the dream and suddenly Derry wasn't afraid anymore.

"Tell me now if you want me to leave," he said and waited for her to answer. He watched as Kyla held a hand out to him.

"Close the door Derry," she said, and he quietly pushed it shut behind him and took her hand. For the first time for as long s he could remember, Derry's defenses crumbled completely around him.


That's the first passage- It does on to the consumation of the relationship, but nothing graphic , only suggestive.
Any comments, help, suggestions. My punctuation may not be perfect here, but please ignore that, I assure you it is perfect int he original text.

Thanks for any input.

[maestrowork]

Too much telling, if you ask me. I can't get into your love scene because you're telling me how these two people are feeling, but I can't feel it through them. It's like tell me "I love you" -- but I can't feel it. You need to show us, through actions -- what are they doing when they're there. Imagine yourself observing them in the same room... what are they doing? How do they react to each other?

[ANNIE]

Thanks, I seem to have a constant problem in my work with way to much telling , not enough showing, but I can't always see it.

[katdad]

Your first effort is quite reasonable, as I see it. Yes, it needs some editing, more "show" and less "tell" but the general setup is fine.

Read aloud to yourself. This will help you tweak the rhythm of the sentences, make them more readable.

[Cathy C]

He shouldn't be here; he needed to leave but couldn't seem to make his feet move in that direction. All he do was stare as the moonlight washed over her. Her hair curled dangeroulsy around her face as he heard her whisper his name and sudenly he knew there would be no turning back. He swallowed down his fear and took another step toward her.
You can do a lot more with this paragraph without taking out what you've already done. For example,

He shouldn't be here; he needed to leave but couldn't seem to make his feet move in that direction. All he do was stare as the moonlight washed over her. His hands seemed clammy and damp all of a sudden and he forgot to breathe for so long that when he finally did, the air burned his lungs. Her hair curled dangeroulsy (I wouldn't use "dangerously" here. Hair can't curl dangerously. She can LOOK dangerous from the way it curls, though)around her face as he heard her whisper his name and sudenly he knew there would be no turning back. He swallowed down a fear that made his pulse pound and his mouth dry, and took another step toward her.

"Close the door Derry," she said, and he quietly pushed it shut behind him and took her hand. For the first time for as long s he could remember, Derry's defenses crumbled completely around him.


Here's another place that can be beefed up:

"Close the door Derry," she said, and he quietly pushed it shut behind him and took her hand. Her skin was smooth and warm against his. She noticed his nervousness and smiled warmly, squeezing his hand just a bit. The feeling that her eyes and smile expressed made him want to pull her against him and hold her forever. For the first time for as long as he could remember, Derry's defenses crumbled completely around him.

Just a few thoughts. I think you're on the right track, though. Good luck!

[Mike Martyn]

A boy subjected to that sort of abuse would grow into a very angry young man based on what I've read in the newspapers or heard from clients. Perhaps she has to tame that anger or channel it. Perhaps he's hesitant and angry at himself because of that hesitancy. The monster who abused him still affects him. It's still inside his head. Help him get it out.

Just a thought.

I'm currently writing a difficult scene in which the m/c confronts his dying stepfather who made his life a living hell in childhood.

[ANNIE]

Thank you all very much! This gives me so much to work with. I'm going to sit down with a pen and paper,(I work better long hand at first) and rework this scene and if you are wiling look at it again. Thank you once again for your time and suggestions.

Ann

[Giles English]

The key is to make sure that each the "love" scene has internal and/or external conflict... something at stake. (If it only marks a mental transition or the result of a conflict, then kick it off at the end of a scene and close the bedroom door.)

You're not a pornographer like me, so you probably don't want to go into all the juicy details! However, you can show the mental conflict and all the agonising advances and retreats... and describe the impact of the action without exactly saying what's going on.

Show us the sensual, then mental effect of her touch. Have him react... Freezes? Recoils? Then have her react to his reaction... drops back? persists? tries to sweep away his inhibitions? Then he reacts to her reaction.... meanwhile he's also reacting to his own reaction...

Good luck!

Giles

[GPatten]

Annie:

I like what you wrote, but it could be better.

I think maestrowork hit the nail on the head. Somewhere I read that women represent a lot of the market, and I even heard that the more descriptive the lovemaking scene is, the more they buy. Well, this may be true, I’m not sure. Now I’m not speaking or porno, I am talking about making love. I don’t like porno, but love making is good and I like to see it entered in a good novel in places here and there.

I wrote one that I don’t dare submit. The first chapter is down right filthy. I wrote it that way only to try it and see what kind of interest some of the women I know would have. They were my age. (50-100)

Now I know most agents and publisher don’t want filth, but I bet if you could write the thoughts into a hungry filthy mind, that it may sell if it is acceptable in other ways.

I might clean mine up and give it a try.

Keep it going Annie. :Clap:

[maestrowork]

Love scenes and porn or even erotica are different. Still, the same "show don't tell" technique applies. The more evocative your scene, the more your readers will enjoy and feel the love/tension/conflict/whatever emotions your characters are going through. You don't have to detail every sex act in the process -- that would be gratuitous.

Think back on all the greatest love scenes in your favorite movies/novels. You don't just see two people go into the room and proclaim, "I love you so much," then close the door. You see how they react to each other, touch each other, how one pulls back and the other proceeds, how one person kisses the other and how the other reacts to it, etc. You may not show them getting naked and getting it on, but there are enough "steaminess" to put us RIGHT THERE and feel the heat. The best love scenes are those you really "get" without a voice-over telling you "and he feels like he's on top of the world" and "her love for him is eternal..." You just feel it and get it.

[scribbler1382]

A long time ago, I was taught that what makes a horror story scary is not the TERRIBLE-HORRIBLE-THING, but the characters' reaction to it. Vincent Price, I think, said that seeing someone's head chopped off is gross...having someone tell you about someone getting their head chopped off is scary.

Strangely enough, I think the same can be said for love scenes. Seeing the love isn't what touches us, it's seeing the characters' reaction to the love that pulls at our hearts. As well, reading a graphic roll in the hay may be sexy, but it's not very romantic. However, having someone tell their best friend about the magical night they just had (especially when remembered through a person in love's rose-colored glasses) is touching and adds to our empathy for the character and their emotional state.

IMO, anyways. :LilLove:

[sunandshadow]

Writing abused characters is always tough. I've done mildly abused characters (e.g. a guy who thinks no one could possibly love him, so his first reaction to another character's interest is trying to figure out why this other character would want to pretend to like him. He doesn't even consider that it might be real interest, because he knows he isn't loveable and everyone hates him.) So, my advice would be to make sure you understand how Derry's thoughts and personal philosophy have been altered by his abuse, and whether there's a descrepency between his gut level beliefs and his rational beliefs about sex, love, Kyla, and his mother's authorization.

I like the phrase "her hair curled dangerously" - I'd love to see that thought in more detail - why is it dangerous, what other curling object does her hair metaphorically remind him of? (IMO metaphors are often good at capturing the high emotional intensity and significance of a love scene for the character involved.) He feels threatened by her on a number of levels, but what exactly does he fear her doing, or what bad thing might happen to him if he tries to take 'what he knows he can't have?'

[aruna]

One of my novels dealt with a sexually abused child; all of them are about love; yet I have never written a sex scene. Never. I don't like them; and I know many women who don't. I think it's about even - those who like them, those who don't.

What you have wriiten needs polishing, and Cathy did a brilliant job. I think that for a character who has been abused you definitley don't want anything very graphic; it must be about his feelings, how he overcomes his anxiety, how he learns to surrender to love. That way you will touch the reader's feelings as well, and in this case the reader will want to be emotionally moved, not titillated. So concentrate on emotion, not what they actually do.

[Sharon Mock]

A love/sex scene is, in many ways, no different from any emotionally pivotal scene. Like any difficult scene, what it requires is simple: courage, stubbornness, Butt applied to Chair (BIC). We put those scenes in our stories for good reasons, and we owe it to ourselves to see it through as best we can.

In practice, of course, sex scenes are different. Different inhibitors -- modesty, privacy, embarrassment, squeamishness -- get in the way. But I don't know any good way of getting around them, except to plow through. (I actually had a glass or two of chocolate liqueur to knock down the inhibitions enough to get the most difficult scene down on paper. But I really don't recommend using alcohol as a writing aid.)

For me, getting the rough draft finished was the most difficult part. Revising wasn't easy, exactly, but I managed it with a minimum of squeamishness. It gets easier.

[aruna]

In practice, of course, sex scenes are different. Different inhibitors -- modesty, privacy, embarrassment, squeamishness -- get in the way. But I don't know any good way of getting around them, except to plow through.


Or just not writing them!

Very often, especially in a character driven novel, they simply aren't necessary; very often, our squemishness is simply a sensible inner voice telling us this, and it's good to listen. We should ask ourselves are we writing a graphic sex scene because we think that sex sells, or because we think readers demand it, or because we want to break a taboo? Does the novel really require it? Obviously, in a bonkbuster, where sex is the whole point, it's requried. But not every love scene necessarily means a sex scene, with all the details. In fact, graphic sex can detract from the emotional impact.

[brinkett]

I don't like them; and I know many women who don't. I think it's about even - those who like them, those who don't.

I don't mind reading sex scenes, but I find most of them unrealistic and flat, and often laughable. I'm not talking about sex scenes in porn/erotica/some romance, where they're a requirement. I'm talking about other categories of books. Most of the sex/love scenes I've read have fallen into one or more of the following categories:

1. Are clearly the fantasy of the author
2. Read like a "how to" sex manual
3. Involve too much thinking. If they were thinking that much, I doubt half the sex in the scene would be happening
4. Could only be performed by circus acrobats

They rarely advance the plot or reveal character (usually if the scene does reveal character, it happens before or after the act and so the description of the act could have been deleted entirely). I'm not a prude by any stretch of the imagination and there is the odd sex scene I've enjoyed, but most of them are tripe.

[ANNIE]

I can't thank you all enough for your generous advice and knowledgable advice.

Just a little background for your information: Derry comes from a post-apocalyptic future who finds himself thirty-five years into his past. Where he comes from life is a daily struggle just to survive. He is sold into Child prostitution and rescued by his brother and then throughout his life hunted by a mad man who holds him responsible for his son's death. His emotions are very deeply buried- to him they are dangerous. Kyla shows him there is more to life than what he has survived

Okay- that said-My love scence is needed as it is an important aspect of Derry's healing and emotional growth. but it will never be graphic, I agree that it needs to be about his feelings and emotions.

I do have a question-- It seems to be at the root of my problem here

What is the diference between showing and telling? I think I know but then i read what I wrote and its telling again.

could someone demonstrate the difference using my scene as an example? It would be most appreciated.

Thank you again for al your help

Annie

[Susan Gable]

Or just not writing them!

Very often, especially in a character driven novel, they simply aren't necessary; Does the novel really require it? In fact, graphic sex can detract from the emotional impact.

I think that only the author can answer if the novel requires the love/sex scene. And if it's a pivital moment in the character's development, then I don't want the door closed - I want to experience it with him/her.

With this character's past, it seems to me that his willingness to interact on a physical level is critical. He's about to show trust - and I'm expecting it to be a difficult thing at first. I would def. want to see this scene in this particular novel. It's pivital to this character's development.

Sex scenes should NOT just be tossed in there for the sake of sex. But there are a whole host of emotions that go along with the act - even for people who are determined that it's just a physical act. Is there trepidation? (Oh, good grief, he's going to see me naked, I wonder if he'll notice my stretch marks? Or he might wonder if he'll "measure up?" Can he make it good for her?) Is there any fear? Insecurity? Or conversely, is the character very confident in herself/himself, despite any "obvious" flaws in their appearance or whatever? That would tell us a LOT about the character's self-image.

So, don't make it just about the physical. Get into the emotions. Show those emotions. (Don't tell too much, show, as others have said.)

Annie, the best book I've found to help with Show vs. Tell as well as a host of other writing craft issues is called Self-Editing for Fiction Writers by Renni Browne and Dave King.

But in a nutshell, show is "His hands trembled as he reached for her" as opposed to "He was scared to death as he reached for her." (Telling)

Susan G.

[ANNIE]

Susan

Thanks- that helps. I'll look up that book- I think I might even have it!

Annie ( I'm printing these posts for refrence- you guys are great!)

[brinkett]

And if it's a pivital moment in the character's development, then I don't want the door closed - I want to experience it with him/her.

I completely agree that I'd want to see the scene in this case. But I've read too many sex scenes where they should have closed the door.


(Oh, good grief, he's going to see me naked, I wonder if he'll notice my stretch marks? Or he might wonder if he'll "measure up?" Can he make it good for her?) Is there any fear? Insecurity? Or conversely, is the character very confident in herself/himself, despite any "obvious" flaws in their appearance or whatever? That would tell us a LOT about the character's self-image.

You can show a lot of this without writing the actual act, though.

[maestrowork]

Gratuitous anything is seldom good, and that includes love scenes.

Remember, a scene must either: 1) develop characters; 2) move the plot forward; and/or 3) strengthen the themes. If your love scene does none of these, then it's a waste of everyone's time. You should just keep the door closed.

And those who are too prudent to read a love scene (however well done) should never buy your book in the first place. Alas! We can't please everyone.

[maestrowork]

You can show a lot of this without writing the actual act, though.

At the same time, why are you shying away from it? What do you have to fear as a writer? I think as an artist/writer we need to be fearless in our art and not hold back. If our scene requires showing the actual act of love making, then show it. Don't be the kind of people who say things like, "Oh, I can't talk about it. It's so embarrassing." Well, you are the friggin' writer, or are you not? Sex is such a huge part of humanity. To hold back makes your writing suffer, and you won't be true to your readers. The truth is always better than the half-truths.

JMHO.

[brinkett]

At the same time, why are you shying away from it? What do you have to fear as a writer? I think as an artist/writer we need to be fearless in our art and not hold back. If our scene requires showing the actual act of love making, then show it.
If the scene requires it, of course it should be shown. I was merely pointing out that you don't have to write the act to show the things Susan listed. I don't think writing sex scenes is particularly fearless, frankly, because I don't think there's anything special about them except that they seem to be overused, like every book has to have the obligatory roll in the hay. These days, writing explicit sex isn't pushing the envelope in any way, shape, or form. It's done all the time. That's the point.

[Susan Gable]

Alas! We can't please everyone.

Too true, Ray. :) So we have to write for ourselves and our characters first.

Susan G.

[NeuroFizz]

They rarely advance the plot or reveal character (usually if the scene does reveal character, it happens before or after the act and so the description of the act could have been deleted entirely). I'm not a prude by any stretch of the imagination and there is the odd sex scene I've enjoyed, but most of them are tripe.

Some time ago, I read a comment on love scenes by a very well-known author (sorry, but I can't remember her name, but she wasn't a romance writer). She stated that anyone who jumps from the preliminaries to the post-coital cigarette is missing an incredible opportunity for characterization. The essence of her argument--intense experiences like this (or like some kind of physical or emotional challenge), are the exact times to SHOW character. Some people will do incredicle about-faces when sex is involved. Others are steadfast in their values. Some men take to heart what daddy said, "Son, you're not done until she's done." Others may be the most attentive, caring individuals until flesh meets flesh, and then there might as well be just one person in the room. This doesn't mean we should give a blow-by-blow (no pun--don't go there) description of the physical activities. In fiction, less is more, which means leave some of it to the readers imagination. But not too much. Maybe the best way to approach it is this: instead of trying to get a rise in the reader's boxers, try to create a tightness in his hatband. In some cases, erotic is better defined by what isn't said, but the reader has to be led in the right direction to capture the author's intent.

[aruna]

If the scene requires it, of course it should be shown. I was merely pointing out that you don't have to write the act to show the things Susan listed. I don't think writing sex scenes is particularly fearless, frankly, because I don't think there's anything special about them except that they seem to be overused, like every book has to have the obligatory roll in the hay. These days, writing explicit sex isn't pushing the envelope in any way, shape, or form. It's done all the time. That's the point.

I agree. In fact, very, very few novels of character depth need a graphic description of the sex act, any more than we need a graphic description of eating. (I'm not talking about books were the sex scenes are the main issue)

There was a time, about ten years ago, when every single book I read had its obligatory sex scene - and they were ALL basically the same - with no exceptions. Always you had a woman "arching" and people "writhing" and all the rest of it; a computer could have written those scenes. And this was not cheap romance, mind you; mostly literary fiction. That's why I say it's enough to describe the emotions, and that is all I ever do - deliberately. I write about love and it's ramifications, not sex.

Once, and once only, I found a fairly graphic sex scene in a character-driven novel where I felt it was required. This was in a book that was part of a series by Susan Howatch - the Starbridge novels - centered on the Church of England. All the male protagonists are priests, bishops, monks and so on - but the novels deal with their sexual entanglements, guilts, temptations, very admirably, without any graphic scenes - except in one book. This one - Glittering Images - was so graphic I was surprised, as none of the other books went into such detail. And at the end I discovered WHY: the plot actulally hinged on the very issue of whether or not "penetration occured". So it was necessary.

However, i appreciate that an author may feel that a graphic sex scene is required for her book, and it's up to her. Usually, if I personally feel it's superfluous - and I get bored, rather than embarassed, by these scenes - than I skip them. It just feels like, here we go again. In a minute she'll start arching against him etc etc. I just go to the point where they stop arching and writhing, and continue with the story. No harm done!:tongue

[aruna]

Some time ago, I read a comment on love scenes by a very well-known author (sorry, but I can't remember her name, but she wasn't a romance writer). She stated that anyone who jumps from the preliminaries to the post-coital cigarette is missing an incredible opportunity for characterization. The essence of her argument--intense experiences like this (or like some kind of physical or emotional challenge), are the exact times to SHOW character.

My problem with sex scenes is probably that all too often I find that the author uses them to depict love; that is, the great sex the protagonists are having is meant to stand in for the great love they have for each other. Yet some of the greatest love stories of all time - ie, the classics - were written with not a single love scene, sometimes without even a kiss; I've been moved to my depths by such books, but not once by a blow-by-blow sex scene (like you, no pun intended!)

That is what I strive for in my own writing. There are many, many ways to show character responses, and character development, that do not involve sex. It has nothing to do with being prudish; I simply feel peronally that with the oversaturation (if not obsession!) with sex we have today, we are ignoring so many other powerful aspects of the human psyche. That's why I take a different direction. So far, it has worked.

[brinkett]

Maybe the best way to approach it is this: instead of trying to get a rise in the reader's boxers, try to create a tightness in his hatband. In some cases, erotic is better defined by what isn't said, but the reader has to be led in the right direction to capture the author's intent.
If a sex scene is well done, this is what it'll do (in addition to getting a rise out of the reader's boxers). But few sex scenes accomplish this. As I said in my first posting to the thread, there are sex scenes I've read and enjoyed. But most of them are same old, same old. A bit of titillation and often unrealistic, and by the end you don't know any more about the characters than you did before (nothing that you really needed to know, anyway).


Usually, if I personally feel it's superfluous - and I get bored, rather than embarassed, by these scenes - than I skip them. It just feels like, here we go again. In a minute she'll start arching against him etc etc. I just go to the point where they stop arching and writhing, and continue with the story. No harm done!:tongue

I've done the same. You can usually tell after the first few sentences if it'll be worth reading.

[maestrowork]

Sex is very difficult to do, and that's why love scenes usually are "boring" because few writers can do sex justice.

But if it's done well, it blows your mind (pardon the pun).

I think sex scenes are just like any other scenes such as sword fights, magic, or explosion... if the writer lacks any imagination, it's a chore to read through. But when done well, it could be one of the most evocative and provocative things we'll ever read...

[Cathy C]

What is the diference between showing and telling? I think I know but then i read what I wrote and its telling again.

could someone demonstrate the difference using my scene as an example? It would be most appreciated.

Thank you again for al your help

Annie

LOL! I did just that in my post, Annie. Wander back up and look at the inserts in red.

[sunandshadow]

Personally, I think a romance story feels incomplete if it doesn't have some good sex scenes - 'sweet' romances always seem like a prudish cop-out to me - but if a story is not a romance sex scenes seem out of place and awkward.

[ANNIE]

Thanks Cathy,

you did indeed! I didn't realize I was opening a can of worms with my question!
Great insite on the topic though!

Annie

[Maryn]

Many writers and teachers stress the importance of showing instead of telling but don't explain it well enough, or in the way the other person learns best. If you're one who learns by examples, this handout my critique group shares might help.

Telling:
Juan looked at himself in the mirror. His little brother pounded on the bathroom door, and Juan yelled at him to use the other bathroom. Juan wondered if his big brown eyes were sexy. His upper lip showed where his mustache would be, but something was wrong with his hair. Usually he was proud of his thick, shiny hair, but today it was lopsided, with a high, puffed-up spot on one side.

Showing:
Juan studied his reflection despite his little brother’s pounding on the closed door. “Use the other bathroom, Ramon!” he yelled, his eyes never leaving the glass. Good eyes, big and brown—sexy?—and the hint of a mustache-to-be, but what was wrong with his hair? Usually he had good hair, thick and shiny as his sister’s, but today one side looked like he’d hidden a Nerf football under there.

Telling:
Benucci ran for his life. For the first time, he wished he’d exercised like he knew he should have. He panted for breath and felt himself slowing, not getting closer to the woods very fast. If he didn’t reach the cover of the woods, a bullet would find him.

Showing:
Benucci ran like he hadn’t since junior high. Why had he let himself get so soft and slow? He gasped, his lungs burning, his legs rubbery, the woods and cover still far away. Ironic, that he was about to be shot because he didn’t join the YMCA!

Telling:
Usually Maggie was one of the first ones to leave, but today she was late because she was having trouble pinning her shirt where the button had popped off. The girls didn’t notice that she was still getting dressed when they left the locker room, talking. She heard Jodie Brennan say that Maggie should be cut from the volleyball team because she couldn’t jump high enough to touch the top of the net. Since she hadn’t had a choice about being short, it hurt her feelings.

Showing:
Maggie winced and sucked at the bead of blood on her thumb. Why did she have to lose a button today? She was running so late. She’d just pushed the pin through a fourth time—still crooked—when she heard Jodie Brennan.

"Maggie? That shrimp shouldn't even be on the team. Even jumping she can't touch the top of the net."

The pin forgotten, Maggie felt her face heat. She didn't ask to be short--it just happened. Like Jodie's crooked teeth. Maybe Jodie shouldn't be allowed in Choir!

A lot of the difference between telling and showing is the difference between describing what can be directly observed and letting the reader inside the character’s thoughts, so that we experience their reactions to and thoughts about whatever observable events happen. (Note: The writer does not have to write “He thought” or “She wondered” to show their thoughts.)


Maryn, hoping prose well short of brilliant is some help, since that's what she so often writes

[ANNIE]

Maryn-

Thanks, That helps more than you know. I do learn better from example and yours were very helpful. I'm going to rewrite my scene using everyone's insites and suggestions.
Annie

[batgirl]

There's some good discussion and useful links about writing sex scenes on one of the Making Light entries ... wait a moment and I'll find the url ...
http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/005871.html
especially check out the links.

I'd agree that too often sex scenes are perfunctory and unnecessary. The only ones I can think offhand of that revealed aspects of the characters were those in Jo Clayton's Skeen series, and perhaps those in David Gerrold's The Man Who Folded Himself.
For me, the verbal and mental courtship, as in Dorothy Sayers' and Georgette Heyer's books, is far more intriguing. I think it's because I'd like to believe that "there's more to marriage than four bare legs in a bed" and that the couple would have something to keep them going when lust wore out.

-Barbara (preferring to be prudent rather than prudish)

[ANNIE]

Batgirl-

Thanks, cool site.

[aruna]

Personally, I think a romance story feels incomplete if it doesn't have some good sex scenes - 'sweet' romances always seem like a prudish cop-out to me - but if a story is not a romance sex scenes seem out of place and awkward.

What! Is Jane Eyre incomplete? Pride and Prejudice? Dr Zhivago?

Not for me! In fact, I think sex would have destroyed all the sense of mystery and allure that these books contain, all the tension. But I don't like sweet romance either. In fact , I don't like romance at all! I want to get at the essence of LOVE itself - which is not romance, and not sex, and certainly not sweet, but something far beyond; something powerful and life-changing, of which sex is just a tiny fraction of the whole - and the least interesting.

I'm not prudish; for one of my novels I wandered for several days through Bombay's notorious Kamathipura district, interviewed whores and madams and pimps, went into the brothels, etc - the book had a lot to do with child prostitution. And yet - not a single sex scene! I aimed to convey all that horror, all that stench, through all the senses, without resorting to exhibitionism. Many readers loved that book; certainly, nobody complained.

Obviously, it's a very personal thing ; but I know quiet a few readers are like me, and it's good that there are writers to cater for them! It's just a pity when we are labelled prudish.

[sunandshadow]

Now, I loved both Pride And Prejudice and Jane Eyre, but I think if their manuscripts were submitted today to a critique circle everyone in the circle would find them lacking in some way, because they're not modern fiction and don't have some of the things we've come to consider essential in modern fiction. For one thing they're all telling and very little showing. For another thing they don't do a good job using sensory impressions to create an immersive world.

And for the most important thing, and directly related to the lack of sex scenes, they do a lousy job at getting inside the main characters' heads and into their emotions. Emotion is the lifeblood of romance, the whole reason reading romance novels is addicting is that you vicariously ride the emotional rollercoaster along with the main character. The sex scenes are vital parts of this rollercoaster; if a love story succeeds at putting you in a vivid sensory world and inside the main character's head, feeling the story gear up for a sex scene only to skip over the most intense and intimate part is like riding your favorite rollercoaster only to discover that the most death-defying drop has been removed because the management thought it was too scary.

And I personally don't believe it would be possible to capture the true nature of child prostitution without several sex scenes - sex is what the whole industry is about, sex is the whole motivation for pedophiles to travel to foreign countries and pay big bucks supporting the industry, and what happens to the kids during the sex is the whole reason people object to the industry's existence. If your goal is to create a feeling of horror then it makes sense that you would want not directly portray the 'monster' of the story, to make it seem more mysterious, primordial, and viscerially threatening. It depends on whether your goal in writing the book was creating drama or exploring human psychology and sociology. If the latter, then yes, I would say the book would be lacking if it didn't have sex scenes. If someone else wrote a similar book but their goal was to capture the great and terrible love of a particular pedophile for a particular child prostitute, then absolutely the book would be lacking if it didn't have any sex scenes.

[aruna]

Now, I loved both Pride And Prejudice and Jane Eyre, but I think if their manuscripts were submitted today to a critique circle everyone in the circle would find them lacking in some way, because they're not modern fiction and don't have some of the things we've come to consider essential in modern fiction. For one thing they're all telling and very little showing. For another thing they don't do a good job using sensory impressions to create an immersive world.

And for the most important thing, and directly related to the lack of sex scenes, they do a lousy job at getting inside the main characters' heads and into their emotions.

I think these books (especuially Jane Eyre) succeed even today because they lack sex scenes! In fact,the tension, the longing, is what gives them their life blood. Insert a sex scene, and the tension is let out - poof!
A good love story is so strong that you don't even notice that there is no sex, unfortunately, they are very rare these days, which is one of my peeves, and the reason why i determined to show that love DOES work, all the better, without sex. I became so frustrated with novels which depend on sex for all the "love" - subtract the sex, and nothing was left.
One modern book, for instance, is Captain Corelli's Mandolin - not even a kiss! Yet it beacme a word of mouth bestseller, and as far as I know, no-one complained.



Emotion is the lifeblood of romance, the whole reason reading romance novels is addicting is that you vicariously ride the emotional rollercoaster along with the main character.

I agree absolutely. But what does graphic sex have to do with that? Sometimes the strong emotion is carried BECAUSE they do not hop into bed with each other.

And I personally don't believe it would be possible to capture the true nature of child prostitution without several sex scenes - sex is what the whole industry is about, sex is the whole motivation for pedophiles to travel to foreign countries and pay big bucks supporting the industry, and what happens to the kids during the sex is the whole reason people object to the industry's existence.

I go into the head of the child concerned and try to make her trauma palpable; it's her FEELINGS that I tried to convey, not the act itself. The story, however, is more concerned with the main protagonist's search for her; and since the searchers never actually witness any sex acts, putting sex into the novel just because it is set there would be gratituous. It's more a sensory journey than anything else: the dirt, filth, vermin, the very atmosphere of seediness and squalor. You don't need to actually see anything. Also, Kamathirpura is not a place where tourists go to - it's far too dirty, even for these monsters! The clients are all Indians, mostly of the poorer sort. The story is not about any individual client but about the victim. And it does work - or so I'm told!

[Sharon Mock]

It seems that every time love/sex scenes get discussed, it gets dragged down into a moral argument, and I'm very sorry to have contributed to that in this thread.

For the record, I don't think the mere act of writing a sex scene makes a writer more "bold" or "courageous" or whatever. I think we can all think of examples of cowardly sex -- it's the stuff that stinks on ice, that has nothing of truth and realism about it, that is just a bunch of cliches strung together by eyebrow-raising words.

Likewise, there are true and real and honest stories that are utterly chaste. Or that are all about sex and love and romance yet manage to convey it all in a way you'd be happy to share with your most conservative relative.

As much as I may sometimes feel like I deserve a medal for managing to write a sex scene that lasts more than two sentences -- I don't. Now, if I can ever get it to live up to what I intend for it? Maybe. ;) But no more so than any other writer who's had to write a harrowing scene and managed to make it work.

[aruna]

It seems that every time love/sex scenes get discussed, it gets dragged down into a moral argument, and I'm very sorry to have contributed to that in this thread.

.

I don't feel I'm having a moral argument, Sharon! Morals have nothing to do with it...

[sunandshadow]

Yeah, the issue isn't morality, it's writing technique, creating an experience for the reader. Everybody agrees there are good sex scenes and bad sex scenes, and it's probably better to have no sex scene than a bad one. The question is whether the sex scene can be considered essential to the full depiction of a reality that includes sex, and consequently whether sex scenes should be, as a writer's rule of thumb, explicitly included in depictions of love stories because without them the reader's experience lacks something. I say yes, Aruna says no, we can agree to disagree because it is a matter of taste and opinion, there's no true right answer.

I probably wouldn't read a romance novel if I knew ahead of time there wasn't going to be even a kiss in it, but certainly there are other readers who would. I would be enthused if someone told me to read a book because it had hot sex scenes in one of my favorite flavors, but certainly some readers would avoid that book like the plague. *shrug* I just felt I had to express my opinion because the consensus in the thread was going mostly the other way, and I didn't want the OP to think that nobody cheers when they find a sex scene or to feel pressured to leave sex out of their story.

[zornhau]

*shrug* I just felt I had to express my opinion because the consensus in the thread was going mostly the other way, and I didn't want the OP to think that nobody cheers when they find a sex scene or to feel pressured to leave sex out of their story.

Well said!

Sometimes this board can read like a career suicide cult as people encourage eachother to down more cyanide laced cool aid.

Even if somebody has good pro credentials, that doesn't mean that they are or were right in general: one lemming drinking Red Stripe on a Jamaican beach does not validate the lemming vacation strategy.

In the end it has to come down to craft and market.

If you're not comfy writing sex scenes, don't write in a genre where it's expected, and don't write stories which - by their very high concept - require sex.

IMHO, the original poster's story does require a sex scene since, as described, the encounter is a natural step in the protagonist's story. Closing the door on them, or dealing with it in narrative summary or flashback would be cheating.

[aruna]

I just felt I had to express my opinion because the consensus in the thread was going mostly the other way, and I didn't want the OP to think that nobody cheers when they find a sex scene or to feel pressured to leave sex out of their story.


:) And I felt the general consensus was in the OTHER direction - it usually is! I am sure that your opinion is generally far more acceptable than mine... at least, editors think so!

[brinkett]

Now, I loved both Pride And Prejudice and Jane Eyre, but I think if their manuscripts were submitted today to a critique circle everyone in the circle would find them lacking in some way, because they're not modern fiction and don't have some of the things we've come to consider essential in modern fiction. For one thing they're all telling and very little showing. For another thing they don't do a good job using sensory impressions to create an immersive world.

Yet people still enjoy them so who cares.


Sometimes this board can read like a career suicide cult as people encourage eachother to down more cyanide laced cool aid.

I thought it was pretty balanced, actually, with people on both sides expressing their views. I agree that threads on this board are often overtaken by the lemming mentality, but I didn't think this was one of them.


If you're not comfy writing sex scenes, don't write in a genre where it's expected, and don't write stories which - by their very high concept - require sex.

If you read back over the posts, you'll see that those of us who complained about the existence of boring, flat sex scenes in novels that don't really need them have always said that we're not talking about genres that by convention, require them.


It seems that every time love/sex scenes get discussed, it gets dragged down into a moral argument, and I'm very sorry to have contributed to that in this thread.

I haven't seen any moral arguments in this thread.

[Lenora Rose]

Examples:

Jo Walton's Tooth and Claw is a highly successful book of the Regency stripe, written today, with several love matches, one of them a sexually active couple (Where the fact that they are so is directly relevant to the plot), but not a single sex scene. It's also done very much in the Austen/Bronte., etc, style, where the reader is somewhat distanced from the characters by modern "Immersion into their heads" standards. And it works, and it would be wrong if she delved into the details.

I think Jane Austen would be able to sell her manuscripts as is right now.

(On the other hand, there was a rumour going around not long ago that someone had discovered some bawdy writings by Austen - including bits cut from some novels - and was going to publish them. Has anyone confirmed this?)

One the other other hand, Ellen Kushner's Swordspoint includes a sex scene, that, was well as being interesting in the "darn sexy" way, is deeply revealing of what one of the characters thinks, because he panics, not at the physical intimacy, but because his emotional defenses are also coming down, and he fears his lover will take advantage and probe into the past he hasn't been willing to talk about. It's revealing, because of all the ways he does trust his lover, as revealed in other scenes,because of what the other man says in return, because of the things said in the aftermath, and the next days. The story would not be right without it. (In fact, similar things could be said about every sex scene in every story she's authored or co-authored that has one. She's damn good at using them to show things other than, "ooh, a boink!").

Likewise, in Guy G. Kay's first trilogy, the Fionavar Tapestry, it's actually deeply relevant to the plot what happens to one particular character whenever he has sex (Which he does, often and rather casually). In fact, in all his books, the sex scenes are invariably relevant to the plot and or character and or both, but in some of the others, the level of detail, rather than the event itself, sometimes gets explicit or at least kinky. I consider The Fionavar Tapestry the best example for this discussion because the details are toned down and the consequences are heightened, which is the type of scene we were looking at initially.

My rule isn't "Sex in stories is bad". It isn't, "Please, let us have more sex in stories". It's does this belong, here, now, in this book? (And yes, all too many published books violate that, or chicken out on the intimacy of personalities that is the real justification for a non-erotica book to have such. I shudder to imagine how the slush ruins this.)

[Nateskate]

First let me say, I love what you are trying to do, using a complex person in a story. There are so many ways to spin this. (Fear of failure; need to be in control, competeting feelings of want and anger-"she is taking away control"

Male abuse victims are extremely complex, obviously, depending on personality, the types of abuse...etc. I was even interested in the before and after. Was she the one who set up the situation, or was he? Had he attempted a relationship before and failed?

As far as fleshing it out, if you have a good idea, which you have, then I'm sure you can make it work.

But let me say this, in contrast. In this kind of scenario where a "fear of failure/intimacy/loss of control" is the problem, I think for the most part, the woman will be taking steps toward him in a give and take kind of way. But he would be stepping backwards in a variety of ways. I'm not qualified to edit, but I can kind of give my own interpretation of someone wounded in a similar situation. Of course, this kind of wounded person, and situation, is likely completely different than the person in your story, and their situation.

Donna was immediately drawn to Robert. Yes, he was handsome, but she had seen handsome before, and wasn't impressed with broad shoulders, or even his flawless features. She was a pretty woman, and would never choose a guy based on looks alone. It was different with him. There was something in his eyes, something strong, yet sensitive, somewhat aloof, but haunting, like a lost little boy swimming in a sea of brown, craving to be found.

Whatever it was, she wanted to find him, and took a step closer, putting her hands on his chest. "Well handsome, we're alone," she said, leaning in, expecting him to eagerly take the bait, coyly adding, "So, what are you going to do about it?"

He muttered something barely audible, and she hardly caught a word. When she slid her hand onto his shoulder, he took a step back, and stuttered, "...it...I...I"

She said, "What's the matter Robert?" gleaming naughtily in such a way that would make most men melt into a puddle on the floor. It always did before, and she said, "Are you afraid to have fun? Come on and take your shirt off?"

Yes, Robert wanted her, even more than she wanted him. But he felt a sea of emotions, strong waves beating against the weatherd shores of his will. When he unexpectedly turned his face to the floor, she said, "What's the matter; don't you find me attractive?"

"Yes...of course...Oh, I just..." he said. But he left the sentence unfinished. What he really wanted to say was, "I just ruin everything I touch, and don't want to ruin this like everything else."

But it was more than fear of a ruined relationship. He wanted to love, and be loved, but had a world of pain hidden in a burried vault filled to the brim with shame and guilt. And he feared if she would come any closer and peer any deeper into his eyes, she'd see the phony he was, the damaged goods, and that he was someone ugly and beyond repair. He was none of those things in reality, but in his jumbled interpretation of the past, in that flithy mirror, this was exactly what he saw when he looked at himself.

He wanted her to like him, and to dive in like a dolphin breeching into the depths of the ocean, but his inability to do so only made him feel more broken. Donna felt off-balance, wondering at first if this was rejection, or something more.

She could see something in his face, and took a risk, saying, "Don't be afraid...I'm not going to hurt you," and began to slip his shirt over his head, and he let her.

[Mistook]

First let me say, I love what you are trying to do, using a complex person in a story. There are so many ways to spin this. (Fear of failure; need to be in control, competeting feelings of want and anger-"she is taking away control"

Male abuse victims are extremely complex, obviously, depending on personality, the types of abuse...etc. I was even interested in the before and after. Was she the one who set up the situation, or was he? Had he attempted a relationship before and failed?

As far as fleshing it out, if you have a good idea, which you have, then I'm sure you can make it work.

But let me say this, in contrast. In this kind of scenario where a "fear of failure/intimacy/loss of control" is the problem, I think for the most part, the woman will be taking steps toward him in a give and take kind of way. But he would be stepping backwards in a variety of ways. I'm not qualified to edit, but I can kind of give my own interpretation of someone wounded in a similar situation. Of course, this kind of wounded person, and situation, is likely completely different than the person in your story, and their situation.

Donna was immediately drawn to Robert. Yes, he was handsome, but she had seen handsome before, and wasn't impressed with broad shoulders, or even his flawless features. She was a pretty woman, and would never choose a guy based on looks alone. It was different with him. There was something in his eyes, something strong, yet sensitive, somewhat aloof, but haunting, like a lost little boy swimming in a sea of brown, craving to be found.

Whatever it was, she wanted to find him, and took a step closer, putting her hands on his chest. "Well handsome, we're alone," she said, leaning in, expecting him to eagerly take the bait, coyly adding, "So, what are you going to do about it?"

He muttered something barely audible, and she hardly caught a word. When she slid her hand onto his shoulder, he took a step back, and stuttered, "...it...I...I"

She said, "What's the matter Robert?" gleaming naughtily in such a way that would make most men melt into a puddle on the floor. It always did before, and she said, "Are you afraid to have fun? Come on and take your shirt off?"

Yes, Robert wanted her, even more than she wanted him. But he felt a sea of emotions, strong waves beating against the weatherd shores of his will. When he unexpectedly turned his face to the floor, she said, "What's the matter; don't you find me attractive?"

"Yes...of course...Oh, I just..." he said. But he left the sentence unfinished. What he really wanted to say was, "I just ruin everything I touch, and don't want to ruin this like everything else."

But it was more than fear of a ruined relationship. He wanted to love, and be loved, but had a world of pain hidden in a burried vault filled to the brim with shame and guilt. And he feared if she would come any closer and peer any deeper into his eyes, she'd see the phony he was, the damaged goods, and that he was someone ugly and beyond repair. He was none of those things in reality, but in his jumbled interpretation of the past, in that flithy mirror, this was exactly what he saw when he looked at himself.

He wanted her to like him, and to dive in like a dolphin breeching into the depths of the ocean, but his inability to do so only made him feel more broken. Donna felt off-balance, wondering at first if this was rejection, or something more.

She could see something in his face, and took a risk, saying, "Don't be afraid...I'm not going to hurt you," and began to slip his shirt over his head, and he let her.

Nate, very provocative.

[ANNIE]

I have a difficult time writing the loves scenes in my novel. This is'nt a romance per say, however this scene is an intrical part of the plot. I was hoping someone out there might be able to give me a little insite.
Just a little background- my protaganist is a young man who has been who has been brutally abused both physically and sexually from the age of five.
Here is a small passage of the scene;

Walking into her room was the single bravest thing he had ever done. Derry opened his eyes and saw her in the shadows. She tok his breath away and scared him down to the depths of his soul. She asked for nothing and gave him everything he had ever wanted but knew he couldn't have. What was he supposed to do with the feelings she had brought to life inside of him? That part of him was dead; it had died a long time ago.

He shouldn't be here; he needed to leave but couldn't seem to make his feet move in that direction. All he do was stare as the moonlight washed over her. Her hair curled dangeroulsy around her face as he heard her whisper his name and sudenly he knew there would be no turning back. He swallowed down his fear and took another step toward her.

She looked at him and he couldn't look away - he didn't want to. 'She's the one' his mother had told him the dream and suddenly Derry wasn't afraid anymore.

"Tell me now if you want me to leave," he said and waited for her to answer. He watched as Kyla held a hand out to him.

"Close the door Derry," she said, and he quietly pushed it shut behind him and took her hand. For the first time for as long s he could remember, Derry's defenses crumbled completely around him.


That's the first passage- It does on to the consumation of the relationship, but nothing graphic , only suggestive.
Any comments, help, suggestions. My punctuation may not be perfect here, but please ignore that, I assure you it is perfect int he original text.

Thanks for any input. I thought in light of all the ideas and inputs to my original query I would add the rest of the scene I omitted to let everyone see what I did do:
He laid himself bare before her as he buried his face in her still-damp hair. She smelled of her bath and of her own unique scent, sweet, but soft; she was so soft. his mouth found hers and he realized he had been starving forthis his whole life. He had no idea the extent of his hunger until he tasted her, touched her, loved her.

He wasn't innocent, couldn't remember a time when he had been. Derry knew women found him attractive and he used that as he would have used anything to help him survive. Sex was a weapon that Derry had learned to use very early in life. It had been used in trade for food, uncontaminated water, shelter and any number of things that had kept Taylor and him alive. Derry had used sex as he had been used by it. It was a means to an end- nothing more. But if that were true, tan were did that leave him now? He didn't have a name to put to his feelings. Was it love,as his dream suggested?

He cupped her face with his hands and tenderly traced the contours with the lightest touch of his fingers. He never cared before what they felt, what they thought. He cared now. The robe slipped off her shoulders as he kissed the slender curve of her throat. The skin beneath his hands felt like warm silk.

Despite the delibrate gentleness of his touch, Derry was afraid of hurting her. She was so exquisitely delicate, so fragile. Derry explored every curve, every plane of her body. He reveled in the simple beauty of her.

She was a gift. He understood that now.

This is what was missing, what he had been looking for but knew he would never find. Kyla O'Shea might be the one person who could fill the emptiness that had all but consumed him.

This is where he belonged, in the arms of this woman. Derry Brandon had come home and he was, for the first time in his life, happy.


I understand that this is mostly telling in this draft as this is my original version, not yet improved upon by your comments. I thought maybe if you saw the whole scene, it may give you a better idea where it is going.

I can't thank you enough for all the input

Annie

[aruna]

I think it's very well,done, Annie, congratulations. You found the perfect balance.

[Nateskate]

Nate, very provocative.

Thanks. Her topic was actually inspirational. I love it when people take risks like that. I use a lot of screwed up people in my story. You can have the Lords of Fire pounding cities with lava, and such, but what makes a story worth the read is when interesting people face inner turmoil.

The bad guy (I should say 'human guy') in book one, isn't really that horrible. He's just terribly insecure and angry. But bitterness can take down a city faster than a Fire Lord. In a sense, though I never thought of this before, he becomes like Lord Denethor in LOTR, and the steps he is taking to ensure security put everyone around him in peril.

[Mistook]

Thanks. Her topic was actually inspirational. I love it when people take risks like that. I use a lot of screwed up people in my story. You can have the Lords of Fire pounding cities with lava, and such, but what makes a story worth the read is when interesting people face inner turmoil.

The bad guy (I should say 'human guy') in book one, isn't really that horrible. He's just terribly insecure and angry. But bitterness can take down a city faster than a Fire Lord. In a sense, though I never thought of this before, he becomes like Lord Denethor in LOTR, and the steps he is taking to ensure security put everyone around him in peril.


That is weirdly... eerily similar to a facet of my own plot. And in fact, that snippet of a love scene you shared echoes a scene I've been leading up to, but have yet to write.

Now they'll say I was ripping off Nathan the Skate ;)

But seriously, I do have a character at the center of the action who acts as the unwitting catalyst for all the conflict around him. Though for most of the story he's kind of a non-character. He's referred to as "The Nowhere Man" and in keeping with the song, he "... doesn't have a point of view..."

He's the only main character who's POV is never shown, and in fact he almost never appears in the story. The one chapter I've been planning that will feature him, will be shown from the POV of a woman who aims to seduce him.

It's not exactly the same as what you're doing, because he's not really insecure or angry, he's more confused, distracted, unable to comprehend the truth he's trying to reveal.

More or less, he's opened Pandora's box without realizing it. Those around him struggle to deal with the consequences, and close the damn box, but all the while they take pains to make sure he never realizes what he's done. It's kind of a farce in that sense. Everybody knows better than the man responsible.

[Nateskate]

That is weirdly... eerily similar to a facet of my own plot. And in fact, that snippet of a love scene you shared echoes a scene I've been leading up to, but have yet to write.

Now they'll say I was ripping off Nathan the Skate ;)


Feel free to cut and paste. I'm never going to use it. Then I won't feel so guilty using one of your pictures.

By the way, I'm sure you'll capture the moment just like you do in your artwork. It's there in your head, because you can see it, and draw it.