Archive of the NEPAT [Archive] - Page 9 - Absolute Write Water Cooler

vstrauss

09-06-2004, 09:24 PM

>>Publishorperish, the Maryland Attorney General has already stated that Maryland considers authors to be companies, so it's basically business vs. business.<<

To my knowledge, just one person has said this. IMO, here is one of the reasons there's so much trouble getting the Attorney General's office to pay attention to authors' complaints about PA--not because the above statement represents the AG's overall position on the matter, but because there appears to be so much confusion in the AG's office about what/where complaints have been filed.

Ann and I have spoken to several people in the AG's office, and none of them said anything about authors being businesses (which on its face is absurd--I think the person who said this simply had no notion what she was talking about). Instead, we've been told the following:

- (Two years ago) There are 8 complaints, but since no money changed hands upfront, there's really nothing the AG's office can do

- (A year ago) There's only 1 complaint, and that's not enough for the AG to take an interest.

- (A couple of weeks ago) There are 10 complaints, and if 20-30 more are received in a short period of time, the AG might take notice and start an investigation.

So who's on first? Apparently no one knows, and a different answer is given depending on who you call. Part of the problem, I think, is that when complaints trickle in slowly over a long period of time, the people receiving them may start a new file for each one, or forget they already have a file for some of them, or route them someplace different every time. Or the complaints go to different adjunct offices, rather than to the main office. So the complaints get scattered around, rather than piling up in a single file that might motivate someone to pay attention.

What can be done? In my opinion, the last piece of advice Ann and I received is the best. A sizeable number of complaints received at the AG's main office in Baltimore within a couple of months will not only attract attention, but make it less likely the complaints will be misplaced or scattered. This is what motivated the NY State AG's office to investigate Edit Ink and the Woodside Literary Agency.

About royalty statements: complaints about royalty discrepancies is nothing new. I've been receiving them almost from PA's start. However, while I'm certainly not saying that PA is free of problems in this area, I think it's as likely that many of the complaints we're seeing now result from authors' unrealistic expectations as from any malfeasance on PA's part.

- Victoria

publishorperish

09-06-2004, 10:41 PM

Okay, whether or not you will have to go Maryland for the trial does not depend on who brings suit, but where you bring suit and whether if would be fair under the Constitution to make either of you stand trial there. For example, if they brought suit in state court in Maryland, unless you have contacts (ie. um land, a house, a business, etc), or are in Maryland for some reason when they serve you with process, etc, it is likely that you can have the case dismissed for lack of jurisdiction. Of course, you can bring suit in you state and you have a better chance of withstanding any attack that PA would make on jurisdiction, because, well, PA (I would assume) has minimum contacts with your state (ie. solicits customers there, maintains a website where people in your state can purchase books, etc). Federal jurisdiction, of course, is a little trickier. If you get a good lawyer, it is unlikely that you'll have to trek down to Maryland for a trial.

Caveat: I'm not a lawyer. I'm just a law student. I'm just trying to help you understand what your'e up against a little more and explain why a case against PA may be difficult. Take my advice with a grain of salt.

publishorperish

09-06-2004, 10:52 PM

If they consider the writers as solo proprietors (ie. businesses), then I really think that the case for anyone trying to sue PA would be extremely difficult. This is rough, but I think the best course of action is for the writers to breach their contract and see if PA sues them. I doubt they will. If they do, the writer would have a number of defenses. The law encourages efficient breach
vstrauss - I think you're right about the royalty stuff. I don't understand why they would get royalties if they bought their own books. Wouldn't that mean that they are essentially paying themselves royalties??

Molly Brent

09-06-2004, 11:00 PM

"Mr. Meiners, I think Molly is ready for her close up now."

Joyce, I think the writer in that one is the one who ended up face down in the pool. Oh well, 1963 was a good year. Think I'll go live there for a little while.

Molly

FM St George

09-06-2004, 11:05 PM

Molly:

hope you're feeling better - know that all our thoughts and prayers are with you in hoping that you recover from all that ails ya and keep on writing!!!!

take care!

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{hugs}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

:)

DaveKuzminski

09-06-2004, 11:08 PM

Publishorperish, I've had the same feeling as you and Victoria about those royalties on discount purchases. To me, it's just a gimmick to encourage the authors to use that discount. Basically, it's just a case of PA understating what could have been the true discount that could have been offered in order to make it appear even more enticing.

Amazingly, what no one has pointed out yet is that by receiving part of that discount as a royalty, it becomes taxable to the author. As a slightly larger pure discount, it would be a true savings to the author. In other words, PA is sticking it to their authors, again.

publishorperish

09-06-2004, 11:14 PM

A products liability suit necessarily be quite different than a suit for breach of contract, etc. This is especially true in this case, because there are no large sums of money involved. In order to file in a Federal Court you have the amount of money involved has to be over 75,000. Secondly, the type of cases a federal court may hear are extremely limited (they are limited by the constitution). Usually, Federal courts may hear such cases as diversity cases (where both parties hail from different states), cases where the cause of action arises under federal law or the constitution, etc . Thirdly, even if you have a choice of whether to bring suit in State or Federal court, the lawyer is going to also consider other factors, such as whether the jury might be sympathetic to these types of claims, whether the judge is sympathetic, how crowded the docket is, etc.

publishorperish

09-06-2004, 11:19 PM

Mr. K, that is exactly what makes PA such a sleazy corporation. They seem to be be just treading legal water. They know that that they have a lot of people who aren't rich and who aren't publishing savvy under their heel and they keep crushing them little by little.
The tax thing is interesting. I didn't know that. I'm wondering if someone can request PA's financials (ie. tax forms) under the Freedom of Information Act.

DaveKuzminski

09-06-2004, 11:29 PM

To my knowledge, FoIA applies to the government, not to businesses. In many instances you'd need a subpoena and that would require a darn good reason.

Yes, royalties are income, so those are taxable. Discounts aren't income, so those are not taxable.

publishorperish

09-06-2004, 11:36 PM

That tax filings were in the public domain ..lol ..guess not...

DeePower

09-07-2004, 01:37 AM

There has been something that has bothered me about PublishAmerica saying they have to be paid before they owe royalties. Keep in mind I am not an accountant but I do have a Master's in Business Administration.

Paragraph 12 of my PublishAmerica contract
"The Publisher agrees to render and forward to the Author, in the months of February and August next succeeding the date of publication of said literary work, and thereafter semi-annual statements of account for so long as copies of the work subject to royalty are sold. With respect to copies sold, the statement shall indicate the price of each copy sold. The statement shall indicate both the total royalties payable to the Author on sales during the accounting period and the breakdown indicating the royalties attributable to specific kinds of sales. Author, may upon giving sufficent notice of no less than seven days, examine Publisher's records and accounts to the extent that such records and accounts are relevant to the publication of said literary work, which shall be done at Author's expense."

A sale is considered made when it is reflected in the accounting statements of the company. A sale is not contingent upon being paid.

PublishAmerica owes the author royalties as each sale is made. It accrues, which means the total builds up as an accounts payable to the author, and then is paid out twice a year.

There is NOTHING in the contract that says the royalties are not owed until PublishAmerica is paid. That's crucial. It doesn't matter that PA says that royalties aren't owed until the books are paid for. The contract says the the royalties are owed when the books are sold and the author will be paid every six months.

Here's what happens on a transaction basis.

Bookstore A orders 10 books written by Author B at $10.00 each on July 1 and Bookstore A says they will pay in 90 days.

PA has LS print books and ships.

PA goes to its accounting department and tells them to increase the sales account by $100 (10 x $10).

PA also tells accounting to increase the accounts receivable for Bookstore A by $100. (Accounts receivable just means that PA is now owed $100 by Bookstore A. All the other bookstores, Ingram's, and other customers have their own accounts receivable as well).

PA tells accounting to increase the 'royalties owed account' for Dee Power by $8. At that moment PA owes Dee Power $8 but the contract says they don't have to pay it until the month following the end of the royalty statement date, July 31. Now there are some other accounting entries that need to be done as well, such as accounts payable for LS for printing the books but they're not relevant to this discussion.

If Bookstore A orders the books on July 1 (or the 15th or even the 30th) and PA reflects that order on its income statement and balance sheet through accounting entries and I'm reasonably sure they do because that's standard accounting practice, then PA owes the author royalties for that royalty statement. It is irelevant whether PublishAmerica was paid for the books or not.

You can't have two sets of books, one where the sale is reflected and then another set that shows the royalties only due to the author when PA is paid by the bookstore. Take it to an extreme example. Major independent bookstore orders 1000 PA books. Sells all 1000. Doesn't pay PA for the books. Bookstore goes out of business. PA still owes the authors the royalties.

If PublishAmerica does not pay Author B the $8 at the time of the royalty statement PA is in breach of their contract. Period. End of story.

The ONLY way PA would not be in breach of contract would be if they conduct business on a cash basis and no one does that anymore except very small companies and individuals. When filing with the IRS a business has to tell the IRS that they are filing on a cash basis. You can't do both and you can't keep one set of books on a cash basis for one purpose and then double entry accounting basis for reporting purposes.

And for those authors wondering about whether they're being paid the correct royalties, authors have the right to examine the books of PA. " Author, may upon giving sufficent notice of no less than seven days, examine Publisher's records and accounts to the extent that such records and accounts are relevant to the publication of said literary work, which shall be done at Author's expense." The author, or representative of the author can examine such records and accounts relevant to publication of said literary work. It would be easy to tell if there are any owed royalties. And LS would have to cooperate under the "accounts are relevant to the publication" phrase. The author's representative (in this case probably a Certified Public Accountant) sends a letter to the accounting firm of LS requesting documentation of how many copies of the title LS printed. The accounting firm of LS replies with the number after examining the records of LS. Author representative compares the two figures.

If a group of authors wanted to get together and hire a CPA to verify their royalties, it would not be a hugely expensive matter.

Dee
www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com (http://www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com)

Molly Brent

09-07-2004, 02:08 AM

FM ST. George, thank you for the prayers and kind thoughts etc..

I enjoy and appreciate all the e mails. (I told a few this story already)

My husband and another guy helped me into rehab. I refused the wheelchair. It wasn't far to walk.

I went through my exercises on all the machines with flying colors. Then came the treadmill. I couldn't do it. I jerked the leads from my chest and walked out.

I went to the lounge where patients wait ......I sat alone for a few mnutes and was slightly crying.....not in pain, just frustration.

A young, beautiful nurse came to me. She told me she understood how I was feeling. I didn't want to be rude but I told her to leave me alone, and she couldn't possibly understand what I was feeling.

She stood and jerked off her wig. She was completely bald and yelled at me. "I'm 29 years old and have less than 6 months to live. You think I don't understand?"

I told her how sorry I was and asked if there were anything I could do for her. She said..."YES, GET BACK IN THERE AND GET BACK ON THAT TREADMILL."

Joyce, as always, is there to help me when I need help in the writing department. One eye is still closed. (Mine not hers)

I am walking more. My hearing has been restored to 85%. My "spells" are drastically reduced. (That's inner ear problems associated with the stroke.)

I went to my reg Wed night poker game last week. I'd be in the casinos this week end, if not for the storms.

I feel like I have a double whammy when I have to explain the failure of my book, the wheelchair and dark glasses all at the same time, but whenever the going gets rough, I think of that nurse and keep on truckin.

Keep the prayers coming. I'm on my way back.

Thanks, Molly

DaveKuzminski

09-07-2004, 02:09 AM

Dee is absolutely correct. It's as I stated in another posting, though I don't recall which board at the moment. PA must pay the royalties at the appropriate royalty period regardless of their cash flow because that's what the contract stipulates. There are only a very few instances where that would not happen, one of those being bankruptcy where secured creditors would be first in line for any monies that PA still holds. However, that's not the case here, so PA has to pay.

Sher2

09-07-2004, 02:14 AM

<I went to my reg Wed night poker game last week. I'd be in the casinos this week end, if not for the storms.

I feel like I have a double whammy when I have to explain the failure of my book, the wheelchair and dark glasses all at the same time, but whenever the going gets rough, I think of that nurse and keep on truckin.>

Yours is an indomitable spirit, Molly, and I have no doubt that you'll keep on truckin'. Good for you! And good luck at the casinos after the storms. Ain't no double whammy gonna keep you down.

Molly Brent

09-07-2004, 02:49 AM

Dee, hiring a CPA is a wonderful idea. I know my royalties and number of books reported sold is wrong but I am especially interested in knowing how many were printed after my termination date.

Count me in.

Molly

absolutewrite

09-07-2004, 03:04 AM

Molly, that was a damn powerful story. If you know who that nurse is, I'd like to send her some flowers. She's my kinda people... I adore people who can keep encouraging others even when their own spirits are down. E-mail me if you know how I can reach her.

Sher2

09-07-2004, 03:57 AM

Molly, I don't know how accurate this is or whether it helps you, but bookfinder.com shows 4 new and 6 used copies of your book available. Interestingly, 4 of the 6 "used" copies are advertised as "new, never read" and are selling from $19.75 to $19.90.

vstrauss

09-07-2004, 04:44 AM

>>A sale is considered made when it is reflected in the accounting statements of the company. A sale is not contingent upon being paid.<<

It depends on what accounting method is used. If PA is on a cash basis, then sales would be counted when payment was received, not when the sale was made. Not all businesses account on an accrual basis.

- Victoria

Molly Brent

09-07-2004, 06:12 AM

Somebody explain this:

I have in my hand a cancelled check dated April 2003 for payment for my book ordered off the net.

My girlfriend has a charge on her credit card dated in March 2003 for my book.

When she ordered, Amazon advertised "ONLY ONE LEFT. MORE ON THE WAY" She bought the last one.

The next day Amazon said "THREE IN STOCK"

Now wouldn't that mean that not only the one she ordered was sold but Amazon had to order more ........that was in March of 2003

That's just a sample. We have lots more. I didn't get a check at all.

Molly

lastr

09-07-2004, 06:32 AM

Molly, you've never received a royalty check for your book, or haven't received one since what date? Sorry to be dense, it just floored me that it sounds like they've never given you any royalties.

Molly Brent

09-07-2004, 06:50 AM

I received one for $35. for the period that ended in Feb. That's the only one I have received.

Molly

lastr

09-07-2004, 06:54 AM

Feb 2003? So all books since 12/31/02 that have been sold have received no royalties?

DaveKuzminski

09-07-2004, 07:11 AM

Victoria, I think there's one other factor that has to be kept in mind. PA gave discounts to their writers based on one sales' date. They can't use a different date for the same sale in order to determine royalty payments. That, I believe, is what does them in.

Molly Brent

09-07-2004, 07:54 AM

Last.......

I didn't realize that I wrote down the wrong year..... it should have been 2004.

I received a check for the period ending in Feb of this year.......nothing since.

Our proof of purcheases were after the period ending in Feb.2004, but well within the 3 month period even if they had to wait or payment.

I should have received a check and didn't this time.

Sorry for the mistake.

Molly

lastr

09-07-2004, 08:06 AM

I think they pay you based on the sales as of 12/31 and 7/31 - paid the beginning of Feb and Sept so all sales since 12/31 have not been paid for? Definitely a reason to get a CPA into LS and Ingrams to check the books.

FM St George

09-08-2004, 01:31 AM

coffeecrampreviews.tripod.com/ (http://coffeecrampreviews.tripod.com/)

the front page says it all - another PA author who's got questions about royalty checks and can't get a response through emails nor phone calls...

the threads have all been deleted or censored on the PA board, but this brave soul has seen the light and isn't afraid to post on her website - good fer you, sweetie!!!

*claps*

just don't buckle under when PA comes after you... come here for advice and help and we'll take care of ya as best we can..

:)

CaoPaux

09-08-2004, 01:43 AM

Heh. Irony, anyone? www.publishamerica.com/cg...ws/385.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/reviews/385.htm)

FM St George

09-08-2004, 01:53 AM

I love the fact that Ms T there figures that getting NO reviews is better than getting one from someone who may dislike PA...

:P

Sher2

09-08-2004, 01:56 AM

<this brave soul has seen the light and isn't afraid to post on her website - good fer you, sweetie!!!

*claps*

just don't buckle under when PA comes after you... come here for advice and help and we'll take care of ya as best we can..>

Good for her! As far as I could see, she didn't say a word that wasn't the truth, so let PA take its best shot at her. She'll find plenty of support here.

Writingtodeath

09-08-2004, 02:53 AM

It is my site The Coffee Cramp Reviews coffeecrampreviews.tripod.com/ (http://coffeecrampreviews.tripod.com/) that is mentioned about my warning on the home page.

I was emailed and invited to come on over. Hello! My first book The Mardu Project, Code Name M-13 was published and released from PA July 24, 2004 (actual May 24, 2004, but I did not know until August 1st.)

My second book The Coffeebean Cafe is being considered by LBF Books. Never again will I use or promote PA. Now unfortunately, I have to still promote my book Mardu Project because it is after all my book.
I will need to discuss with my husband on what to do about the contract. Only time will tell on that point.

Writingtodeath

XThe NavigatorX

09-08-2004, 03:01 AM

Welcome. :) You'll see everyone here is very friendly.

You have a taste for controversial publishers. Let us know how working with LBF turns out.

XThe NavigatorX

09-08-2004, 03:06 AM

btw, this forum is more than just the bewares board. p197.ezboard.com/babsolutewrite (http://p197.ezboard.com/babsolutewrite) It's huge, and it's pretty cool.

DeePower

09-08-2004, 04:08 AM

Our new book, "The Making of a Bestseller: Success Stories From Authors and the Editors, Agents, and Booksellers Behind Them" Dearborn Trade March 2005 is going into copy editing.

If anyone has suggestions for prepublication reviews/endorsements I am listening. PDF files are ready now, hardcopy galley will be available in November.
If you would like to learn more about "The Making of a Bestseller,' go to
www.BrianHillAndDeePower....eller.html (http://www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com/bestseller.html)

or email authors@brianhillanddeepower.com and I will respond from my personal email address.

Any help or suggestions will be very much appreciated.

Dee

AnneMarble

09-08-2004, 05:28 AM

I love the fact that Ms T there figures that getting NO reviews is better than getting one from someone who may dislike PA...

That is definitely taking loyalty for your publisher too far. :(

By the way, where does that review site say something "bad" about PA? I had a hard time navigating it :bang , so I couldn't see that text, criticism, warning, whatever. I also tried a Google search to find it. So if I couldn't find the anti-PA stuff on the site, what are the odds that someone who is just there to read reviews will see it?

CaoPaux

09-08-2004, 05:57 AM

Scroll down a few inches, Anne. It starts below the bank of links (and the Yahoo! button).

Unfortunately, for every "convert" there are a dozen left behind:
www.publishamerica.com/cg...e/5818.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/5818.htm)

James D Macdonald

09-08-2004, 08:54 AM

How long will <a href="http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/5826.htm" target="_new">this thread</a> last?

Sher2

09-08-2004, 09:11 AM

<How long will this thread last?>

Since there seem to be graveyard shift board monitors these days, it could well be gone by morning.

James D Macdonald

09-08-2004, 09:20 AM

For the new folks coming over from the PA boards, here's some more info on the way royalties work in the publishing world.

Legitimate publishers pay royalties on the cover or list price of the book, not on the "net price," not on the "sales price," not on the "discount price."

That is, if PA were a legitimate press, if you were getting an 8% royalty (which, honestly, is on the low side) and if it were figured the way the rest of the publishing industry figures royalties, you'd get $1.60 for every one of your $19.95 books that sold, regardless of what price the bookstore got 'em for, or sold 'em at.

Also, since (by definition) trade paperbacks are whole-copy returnable, one could argue that by calling their non-returnable paperbacks "trade" books, PublishAmerica is engaging in deceptive business practices and false advertising each and every time they use the term.

Molly Brent

09-08-2004, 09:30 AM

What? You mean they pay us?

Molly

lastr

09-08-2004, 09:33 AM

Some of Jim's books (http://www.fetchbook.info/search.do;jsessionid=49E53EF4B2EFAF15C68B2E1E875EF D02?search=James+D+Macdonald&searchBy=Author&Submit=Search) Jim, for the new people coming over from PA, could you please explain why a noted author of your caliber would care about what PA is doing to new writers?

James D Macdonald

09-08-2004, 09:57 AM

It's not just PA, lastr; it's scammers in general that I dislike.

As to why I try to help new writers -- I was one, once, myself.

Now PublishAmerica:

I'm certain that PublishAmerica has printed hundreds of dandy books, books that I and thousands of others would read and love -- only we never will, because PublishAmerica's business model doesn't include Sales to the General Public as part of their plan. And PublishAmerica takes many more writers who aren't quite ready yet, tells them they're good enough, publishes them despite their books' flaws, and tells them that this is what legitimate publishing looks like. The authors go out to do expensive, time-consuming, and ultimately futile publicity -- stealing the time they should have spent writing their next books and learning their craft, all while crushing their dreams and sapping them of the desire to write again, write more, and write better.

Scammers who lie to writers offend me on a moral level.

James D Macdonald

09-08-2004, 10:07 AM

What? You mean they pay us?

Yeah. And they find readers for you, too.

Figure that a first book by an unknown writer will average about 5,000 copies sold in trade paper. Figure that it'll sell (trade paperback) for the national average of $15.77. Figure that it'll get 10% royalties (still nothing to write home about, but entirely reasonable for a first novel by an unknown writer).

You should expect an advance of around $7,885. If it sells better -- the rest is gravy. If it sells worse, you aren't expected to pay that back. (The reason we talk about money rather than readers is this: it's hard to count readers, but it's easy to count money. There's a direct correlation between number of readers and amount of royalties, though. Think about it.)

Let the publisher worry about promoting the book, getting it into stores, getting it reviewed -- it's up to them to earn back their investment. Meanwhile, you're writing and selling your next novel.

That's the way this game is actually played.

<HR>

Next note: Try going <a href="http://writersweekly.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2570&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15" target="_new">here</a> and read the post from someone called "Yoyo."

I don't know who "Yoyo" is, but I give the post credence because it matches what I know about publishing. (It also shows someone who read the PublishAmerica line about being "available" through bricks-and-mortar bookstores as being "shelved" in bricks-and-mortar bookstores -- a very different thing.)

Please keep Yoyo's post in mind when you're talking about using PublishAmerica to "get your foot in the door."

Sometimes all that getting your foot in the door earns you is a broken foot.

James D Macdonald

09-08-2004, 07:12 PM

"Would any of you tell people that you are self-published and that PublishAmerica is a printing press that simply published his book on demand?"

Well, I've heard of people who claimed that they played piano in a house of ill repute rather than admit they were PA authors....

James D Macdonald

09-08-2004, 07:14 PM

I know nothing about the publishing business or legal matters.

Molly, I'd suggest that right now you get a lawyer who does know the publishing business. Taking on PA through the courts (which is probably the only way to get justice) isn't something to do on your own.

DaveKuzminski

09-08-2004, 07:20 PM

Well, it's lasted more than I thought it would.

I can't help but notice that the writers are aware of PA's deletions and are resorting to email so that PA won't know their true thoughts and words. Sounds almost like the French underground in WWII.

FM St George

09-08-2004, 07:55 PM

well, it's gone...

wonder if the authors mentioned will visit here - maybe someone invited them to see the posts... you can only censor people for so long before they will start looking elsewhere for the truth!

*innocent look*

saving PA authors - one at a time...

Molly Brent

09-08-2004, 08:06 PM

Right now, after my letter, I think the internet fraud division of the FBI is going to help. Also, the IRS said they will take action.

This is the first time I have been encouraged.

If it doesn't work, I have a friend (about 150 miles from me) who is a retired federal judge. He probably can find the right person to handle it for me.

I do think we should fight as a group.....that way our complaints wouldn't be scattered all over the place.

I moved up on the best seller list again.

Still no check.

Molly

AnneMarble

09-08-2004, 09:11 PM

Scroll down a few inches, Anne. It starts below the bank of links (and the Yahoo! button).

Thanks. I think she moved up it up since, because it was right on the top when I next looked. Either that, or I should've cleaned my glasses better. :grin

Unfortunately, for every "convert" there are a dozen left behind:

What a setup PA has. They've set up a mindset where their own victims are forwarding letters they get telling them that PA is bad. :smack

Also, what was the deal with the site they were talking about? Was it a site that helped publicize authors, or gave them tips on publicity? If that's the case, I don't blame people for backing away from it once they learned more about PA, great site or not. A lot of people are going to look at the site, say "Oh, it's one of those PA authors," and leave. Not good publicity. :(

Whachawant

09-08-2004, 10:10 PM

Well at 103 pages of this thread I can honestly say that nobody should even look at PA....

I realize, most,..have been burned.. chalk it up as a learning experience...

What I want to know, has anybody tried to take these guys to court for unfair business practices or something... ???
I know their probably sliding through a loop hole .. but I'm sure some of you can use your past experience and accumulated knowledge and find a way to nail the coffin shut on these guys...
..do any of you think this way?
You've all got alot of dirt... now what you need is some concrete.....

peace.

James D Macdonald

09-08-2004, 10:14 PM

We've been talking about false advertising and unfair business practices just about forever. Yes, it's been thought of.

All that's required is someone with standing and money to walk into a lawyer's office.

<HR>

Update: Has anyone told Laura Pfalz that her now-missing thread is mentioned here?

Whachawant

09-08-2004, 10:33 PM

Is there not some sort of foundation that you can present your case too. "ie? writers legal help"

.... and if not ... why not?:shrug "United we stand........!":hug

There's enough writers associations out there ....you would think they would all be willing to prevent this type of lousy business practices by dontating to a legal cause...

Guess I'm just a dreamer..... :huh

James D Macdonald

09-08-2004, 10:46 PM

You're asking about <a href="http://www.vlany.org/res_dir.html" target="_new">Volunteer Lawyers for the Arts</a>, also mentioned upstream.

vrauls

09-08-2004, 10:48 PM

I've never commented here before (and have nothing to do with PA -- good or bad). But when I saw this, I thought about the thread and figured it might be interesting. I hope it hasn't been posted before.

Please check out the cover of the PA published book reviewed in this journal:

www.livejournal.com/users...13659.html (http://www.livejournal.com/users/crevette/113659.html)

XThe NavigatorX

09-08-2004, 10:57 PM

yeah, I think that was talked about a little before. The cover was changed, though I don't know if PA did it on its own or because someone threatened to sue them.

www.amazon.com/exec/obido...1094660636 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1413700659/qid=1094660636)

The amazon page has a review supposedly by the author complaining about PA. I don't know if it was really her. She gave herself two stars.

James D Macdonald

09-08-2004, 11:09 PM

Yes, Night Travels of the Elven Vampire has been mentioned here. LaVerne herself (having Awakened and Smelled the Coffee) is a regular poster now.

AnneMarble

09-08-2004, 11:10 PM

Please check out the cover of the PA published book reviewed in this journal:

Thanks for posting that link. I've heard of the cover but never actually seen it. That was even more ... obvious ... than I'd thought it was. Wow. :eek

XThe NavigatorX

09-08-2004, 11:11 PM

ahhh, I was wondering why that name sounded so dang familiar.

Hi LaVerne! :D

CaoPaux

09-08-2004, 11:27 PM

I think this is a prime example of the damage PA inflicts upon aspiring writers. Cover issues aside, competent editing might have spared Ms. Ross 'net-wide ridicule. :/

vrauls

09-08-2004, 11:54 PM

LaVerne herself (having Awakened and Smelled the Coffee) is a regular poster now.

My deepest apologies for bringing it up then! It must be profoundly difficult to have finished your book, only to discover your publisher has stolen an image for the cover (among the other PA issues that have been discussed here at length).

I thought the cover might be a starting point for legal action against them, not realizing it had already been changed.

FM St George

09-09-2004, 12:01 AM

it was, but not until WAY after a lot of complaining from Ms Ross, IIRC...

let's put it this way - no REAL publisher would have allowed that cover to go out due to the legal issues. The fact that it went through their entire system without comment or question tells me that their "legal" department consists of watching Law and Order reruns on TNT...

:P

AnneMarble

09-09-2004, 01:14 AM

it was, but not until WAY after a lot of complaining from Ms Ross, IIRC...
Yeah, I remember reading something she wrote about it. Maybe on her web page or on Amazon.

let's put it this way - no REAL publisher would have allowed that cover to go out due to the legal issues. The fact that it went through their entire system without comment or question tells me that their "legal" department consists of watching Law and Order reruns on TNT...
If that. :) Even my mother would have recognized that picture as Orlando Bloom (though she can never remember his name), and she would've guessed it was a Bad Idea to put it on a book cover.

BTW I like the idea of vampire elves. :grin

09-09-2004, 02:33 AM

BTW I like the idea of vampire elves.

I think a vampire drawf would be better. They are already mean SOB's, and to make one a blood sucker....what things could come.

I might have to try that.

Kevin

ncq13

09-09-2004, 04:03 AM

That review is soooo mean! Attacking authors like that IS NOT going to help them improve, nor is it going to hurt PA. I really feel for the author and hope that she has been able to move on.

DeePower

09-09-2004, 04:10 AM

Here is a post from Infocenter regarding when the first NYT ad will run. This was posted September 5. If the ad was to run Sept. 19 and the artwork had to be in "the end of last week" then there is a two week period between submission of the art work and the ad appearing. Which would mean that the "winners" would know 2 weeks ahead of time. There have been no announcements on the PA boards by any author that they have been selected.

It will be interesting to see if the ad actually runs.

Dee

Infocenter
Administrator
9/05/2004
20:55:40

&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp RE: First NYT ad?

Message:
Not sure, with the experts off for the long weekend, but it's likely the Sept. 19 issue.
The art work was due end of last week, that much is certain. As previously announced, the winners will be informed ahead of time, i.e. momentarily.

FM St George

09-09-2004, 04:12 AM

it'll be interesting to see if anyone is keeping tabs on this and posts something like:

"Hey, I spent three hundred dollars on books! Where's my ad?"

:P

although I doubt it'll stay up long...

the sad thing is that obviously PA isn't getting any more competent in their scams - if you're going to promise something, then you have to deliver - especially something as visible as a NYT ad.

James D Macdonald

09-09-2004, 04:47 AM

"Hey, I spent three hundred dollars on books! Where's my ad?"

Three hundred? Hah! I spit on your three hundred! I'm guessing that no one will be in the ad who didn't buy at least 250 copies of their own book for a nice round $2.5K (plus shipping).

<HR>

BTW, reviews aren't meant to help the author grow. They're for the benefit of the readers, not the writers.

XThe NavigatorX

09-09-2004, 06:09 AM

Jim, I'll up your ante. I know of two who (said they) went for the big 1k, and I bet no one in the top ten bought less than 500.

James D Macdonald

09-09-2004, 06:30 AM

A thousand copies of their own book?

Is that what you're saying?

Let's see ... typically $19.95.

If they get the 30% discount, that's $13,965 plus $502.50 in shipping, for $14,467.50 on the credit card.

If they're new authors and get a 50% discount, that's $9,975 plus the same $502.50 for $10,477.50.

If they've got a deal with a 55% discount (the biggest discount I've ever heard PA giving), then it's $8,977.50 plus $502.50 for $9,480 out of pocket.

Let's see what kind of ads they could buy themselves for the same money (and not have to fill the basement with cartons of books)....

For just $12,840, 3/10 of a page (darned-near that half page, all for you, and no competition -- you know it's going in!) Or for $8,860, 1/5 of a page. What a saving! What a deal!

But, actually, we know the advertising isn't worth a darn to PA authors. The purpose of print advertising for books is this: To tell people who are waiting for a certain book (for example, the next John Grisham novel), "Hey, you know that book you were planning to buy the minute it came out? It's out!"

But no one's waiting for these books. And if a cover catches some random reader's eye, and he considers looking for it next time he's in a bookstore, the author is still out of luck because that book isn't going to be in a bookstore.

So -- no increase in sales for the PA authors. Big increase in sales for PA, though -- selling books to their own authors, and bringing in wannabee authors who see the PA logo in the NYT Book Review. (Several standard vanity presses run monthy or even weekly ads there, for just that reason. To hook new suckers.)

CaoPaux

09-09-2004, 06:32 AM

Jim, I'll up your ante. I know of two who (said they) went for the big 1k, and I bet no one in the top ten bought less than 500.

:ssh

DeePower

09-09-2004, 06:45 AM

I read the review in question, it was hysterically funny and very mean. I don't much care for mean.

Our book with PublishAmerica is our third book, but our first work of fiction. Truth be told if it would have been our first book and PA would have been our first publishing experience I would have been devasted. Wait -- is there a stronger word than devasted -- where is that thesauras when you need it?

That's what pisses me off about the deceptiveness of PublishAmerica and the infamous cheerleader - you know his initials. Our book should have sold thousands of copies ( no really, it had a niche market and a general appeal to readers who like thrillers) instead of just over 600 copies. We stopped all promotional efforts when we started getting emails from customers who said "I went down to my local Barnes and Noble but it wasn't there, they said I'd have to special order it. Or that they couldn't order it at all. When our local Barnes and Noble CM said yes he'd love to have an event for us - he had one for our previous book - and then no he couldn't because pa IS POD.

It's easy to say, and I mean this with no malice, go get an attorney. We did. It's EXPENSIVE! And that is what PA is counting on. Are we giving up? NO!

In our case we were lucky, we decided about two years ago that we wanted to be writers, not consultants, so we made some intentional changes, life style and otherwise, to pursue that objective. We retained a good law firm experienced in publishing and entertainment. And we paid a retainer, not a huge one, probably not even their average retainer, but it was cash out-of-pocket so as questions came up concerning contracts, copyrights, selling screenplays ( hello producers are you out there, we have a screenplay for you) we would have someone we could quickly get advice from.

Most writers aren't as fortunate as we are. But I hate to think, what if PublishAmerica was our first publishing experience, and not John Wiley & Sons?

Dee
www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com (http://www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com)

arainsb123

09-09-2004, 07:31 AM

"That review is soooo mean! Attacking authors like that IS NOT going to help them improve, nor is it going to hurt PA. I really feel for the author and hope that she has been able to move on."

It's mean, but sooo funny.

ProandCon

09-09-2004, 07:49 AM

Ms. Powers,

Did you win by getting a lawyer or is the fight still underway with PA?

How did you guys get taken by PA if you already had two books published?

Mr. Kuzminski,

Didn't PA sucker you too?

Oh, PA's cheerleader said on the message board that he is ready to take on the PA naysayers. Get your flyswatters out!

James D Macdonald

09-09-2004, 08:07 AM

ProandCon, I have a question for you:

Are you really Larry Clopper, as some have suggested?

<HR>

For everyone, if that cheerleader shows up, I'd prefer if he wasn't flamed. Calm, rational discussion, sticking to facts, may well educate him.

ProandCon

09-09-2004, 08:24 AM

Mr. Macdonald,

Who is this Larry Clopper I keep hearing about on the posts?

I laughed when Detective McCann started saying that. That guy is funny and talks a good game. He sure can hold his own with Mr. Kuzminski.

Oh, were you calling PA authors suckers indirectly in your post about the vanity ads in the New York Times? I was shocked to even think you maybe implied that? Tell me it wasn't so!

James D Macdonald

09-09-2004, 08:43 AM

Larry Clopper is one of the co-owners of PublishAmerica. If you are him, well, strange attitude you have toward your own authors.

And ... the PA authors who may have spent thousands or even tens of thousands of dollars on their own books? "Suckers" is such a harsh word. I'd prefer to say that they may not have thought through the business aspects of their careers as authors.

Later, when the ad comes out, I will probably say some things that some specific authors won't find comforting.

I certainly hope than none of them took out mortgages to pay for those book purchases.

DaveKuzminski

09-09-2004, 09:07 AM

ProandCon, I have never submitted any manuscripts to PublishAmerica. Consequently, I have never been rejected by them. Nor have I, therefore, been suckered by them as you suggest.

On the other hand, PublishAmerica has libeled me on more than one occasion. Also, they have misused or misappropriated a trademark belonging to me by purchasing four Internet domains that use my trademark. However, those activities of theirs occurred after my site, Preditors & Editors (tm), recommended against PublishAmerica because its contract was poor. There was never any malice in making that recommendation. It was pure and simple analysis offered after a writer provided a copy of the then existent contract to me and asked for an opinion. There was clearly malice in PA's reaction.

Now, be a good fellow and read the other comments from Ms. Powers. I see no reason for her to repeat everything when you can just as easily read the preceding pages.

ProandCon

09-09-2004, 09:36 AM

Mr. Kuzminski,

My mistake. I thought you were a previous PA author. Are you an author?

I know you love to talk and what you do for writers is a good thing but is the power going to your head?

What I ask Ms. Powers is none of your business, sir. The questions to her can be answered if she would like to answer them. If not, that is her decision not yours.

ProandCon

09-09-2004, 09:51 AM

Mr. Macdonald,

Once more I'm not Larry Clopper.

I hope some of the PA authors didn't mortgage their homes. They had plenty of warnings from other PA authors to be wise and not fall for that trap.

Of course it's most likely some were blinded by the desire to win.

Man, I need a new Rolex!

James D Macdonald

09-09-2004, 09:54 AM

Whether or not someone is an author, and where or with whom (or in what genre) they publish, is rather a red herring to the question of who can make sensible comments on publishing practices.

If I speak authoritatively, it isn't because I'm a published writer, it's because I'm interested in the business.

And Dave's right: The answers to your questions to Dee are only a couple of pages upstream. Reading this whole thread would repay your time.

lastr

09-09-2004, 06:44 PM

www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/5843.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/5843.htm)
There is something wrong with someone having to post something like the above just so they don't get in trouble. Whether they were told to post this or felt they had to post this, pressure was applied somewhere.

James D Macdonald

09-09-2004, 07:24 PM

Thanks, lastr. I just read the post you linked. I feel bad for that author.

While I was over there, I found another post from another author with a forthcoming book:

<Blockquote>
I, too, do not buy the song that all those who have failed are singing. Think about it. Rarely in life are we given the chance to be all we can be. Like baseball players who have been signed by the big leagues, they, too, must prove themselves or they're history. They can put the blame on no one else. They can never say they weren't given the chance.

This book, [title deleted -- JDM], is being promoted by a small network of family members, including yours truly, 24/7, with only one goal in mind. Success! Because if I fail, like all others who were given "that chance" in their chosen vocation, there will be no one else to blame but myself.

All those who are laying blame at the feet of PA for their own failures are doing nothing more than refusing to admit the error of their ways.
</blockquote>

No, no, my friend. You've bought into the Meiners Myth, but it just isn't true. You haven't been, and aren't being, "given the chance." When your book "fails," it won't be your fault, and it won't be your book's fault. You didn't set the cover price. You didn't short-discount the book through distributors. You didn't make the no-returns policy. You didn't fail to get CIP data. You aren't the one who isn't publishing a catalog. You didn't only pretend to edit. When, at the end of the day, the only sales you've managed are to that same network of family and friends (and to yourself), it won't mean you're a failure.

Some people won't believe until they've seen it themselves. It's likely you're one of those. When you can't get into bookstores, when you get stonewalled by PA, when you get that "don't take that tone with us" e-mail, remember. You aren't the failure here. The blame goes to PublishAmerica.

Whachawant

09-09-2004, 07:56 PM

What was that person thinking anyway.. ?
Of course the company is going to remove something they don't consider within their best interest...
If he's smart he'll post it somewhere else.......

O.K. ... through experience most of you have realized that PA is no good.

Have any of you heard of success stories of authors published by PA.?.... I don't mean '...wow am I every happy with the service...'

I mean... '.... I just drove my Ferrari to my cottage studio ... thanks to PA....'

ProandCon

09-09-2004, 08:11 PM

I warned you! Update your survival kit and hide your animals. Get your flyswatters!

He's coming according to his post this morning.

We have more pressing subjects to answer. You're my brothers and sisters. Let's go kick some serious ass. These terrorists against PA need a keg of good old-fashioned whoop-ass!

I Gave PA 24 hours before launching the juggernaut and...well as you can imagine, I thought I was done.

PA!!! You really should give me a paycheck for this @#%$ because...HERE IT COMES AGAIN!!!!

aka eraser

09-09-2004, 08:15 PM

The PA model doesn't allow for "success" in the way writers typically measure it: lots of book sales.

The most successful ones I've heard about sold upwards of a thousand copies. Nancy Mehl is one I believe, and she is numbered among the disenchanted. (Correct me if I'm inaccurate here Nancy.)

Many of us have read posts about PA authors, who managed to arrange a signing at a bookstore, being stiffed by PA when the # of books required for the signing (20 or so) were not delivered.

It seems PA is only interested in printing and supplying quantities of books during their semi-annual "specials" and even then, they seem to only want to ship to the authors themselves.

FM St George

09-09-2004, 08:24 PM

but, in defense of PA authors - a LOT of them really know nothing else other than what PA tells them. Well, that and HB Marcus and his cheerleaders telling them over and over again that if you fail, if your book doesn't sell, that you have NO right to fault PublishAmerica because you are a lousy person and a bad writer and how dare you insinuate that PA could have done more when they gave you that big break.

it's a mindset I've seen plenty of new authors fall into on the PA boards - that somehow PA is doing them a big favor by giving them their big chance at fame and fortune, and if you're an ungrateful sot then you'll be tossed to the side of the road and told that it's all YOUR fault, that somehow YOU let yourself down by not harassing more managers to carry your book.

my own epiphany came last year with the Ohio signing debacle - even while HB Marcus was singing PA praises I had alarm bells going off in my head when I heard that PA was doing nothing to support this event; not even attempting to make sure books would be there. Wait a minute, says I to myself, why wouldn't a publisher want to do everything they could to help out an author at a book signing, especially when there's going to be quite a few of us there? Why not arrange for the books to be delivered and perhaps send a poster or two...

ding, ding.

of course, I never attended and it was pretty well a farce, from what I gathered on the board. HB Marcus managed to find one or two copies of some of the authors' books for them to flog, insisting that they could just "buy their own and resell them" at the event itself. He put out the money to raffle off an electric guitar to generate interest, which means more money out of his pocket for no profit at all. I'd love to see what sort of profits he's been pulling in for his books and some of the more vocal PA authors compared to what they've put out on stunts like this - it's easy to feel big when you sell a few books and hold a check in your hand, but when the bills come in for that publicist that everyone TOLD you you just had to have 'cause everyone else needs one and PublishAmerica is doing you such a favor by publishing your baby that you dare not ask for anything else...

PA authors, ask yourself this - you may not have gotten into writing to get rich, but did you get into writing to go into debt?

I think not...

James D Macdonald

09-09-2004, 08:52 PM

He's coming according to his post this morning.

Really? Where was that posted?

ProandCon

09-09-2004, 08:58 PM

It's near the bottom of the More Moore's post.

www.publishamerica.com/cg...e/5772.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/5772.htm)

vstrauss

09-09-2004, 09:12 PM

Let me reiterate Jim MacD's hope that there will be no flaming if indeed HB or "Mr Book" or any other trollish sort of person shows up here. Let's try to keep it calm, and avoid feeding the energy monster.

That also goes for Mr/Ms Pro and his/her disingenuous posts. Ignore the nasties--that annoys them worst of all.

- Victoria

DaveKuzminski

09-09-2004, 09:30 PM

Well, I'll have to post this "coming" as a Code Yawn.

FM St George

09-09-2004, 09:31 PM

let him come on over - facts tend to be more powerful than bluster and whining. We've got the facts, all they have are hyperbole and swear words - hardly the stuff of legends.

bet he never joined the debate society at school - there you need more than a foul mouth to get good marks.

:)

James D Macdonald

09-09-2004, 09:41 PM

If and when a representative of the PA True Believers Society arrives, I wonder if he or she would answer a few questions.

I'm not going to ask you for proof -- you're an honorable person. Your word is good enough for me. You don't even have to answer the questions in public. Private email (and email to me stays private) or merely answering them in your own mind is sufficient.

So... the questions:

How much have you, personally, spent on promoting your own books?

Have you earned that much back in royalties?

How many copies of your own book have you, personally, bought?

Would you have spent less money for the same number of books by going to a short-run printer yourself?

How many copies of your book have sold to someone you don't know by name, or you weren't looking in the eye when the sale was made?

Ever have trouble getting PA to ship the books you've ordered in the quantity you needed in a timely manner?

Ever have trouble convincing a bookstore to stock your book?

If I looked on the shelves of my local big-box bookstore, would I find a copy of your book?

Have you ever published a book with a non-vanity publisher so you can compare and contrast what PublishAmerica does with what other publishers do?

What are your total sales?

Dhewco

09-09-2004, 09:46 PM

If PA doesn't want to sell their authors' books, and I believe they could care less, why do they have the contract at SEVEN years? Aren't most sales made in the first few months after publication? It is cruel of them to lock their authors into a long contract. After the first year, from what I've read here, most authors are so disheartened as to not be able to push their books anymore.

Of course, I live in a small town where the local daily(circ. about 50,000) did a full page article on a PublishAmerica author. I wonder what they'll do when my Author gets around to selling my novel to a traditional publisher.

David

priceless1

09-09-2004, 10:38 PM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Well, I'll have to post this "coming" as a Code Yawn.<hr></blockquote>

Dave, as one who has been flamed by this individual any number of times, I find your comment a breath of fresh air. Excuse me while I go laugh myself silly again.

DeePower

09-09-2004, 11:07 PM

As Jim and Dave suggested I have explained our experience with PublishAmerica at length in previous posts.

PublishAmerica did agree to terminate our contract, but the letter of agreement to reverse the rights was totally unacceptable. You can find that letter on this board as well, with a discussion.

We have notified Ms. Prather, Mr. Meiners and Mr. Clopper that we will not sign their agreement and that they would receive a more acceptable termination letter from our attorney.

Dee
www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com (Http://www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com)

DaveKuzminski

09-09-2004, 11:19 PM

Because that's what PA uses as pressure to get the authors to buy. PA knows that all authors want their words read by someone. If it was only one or two years, most authors would just sit back and quietly wait it out. Plus, they'd have two copies for show. However, it's for seven years and the authors know that the only sales they'll get under those circumstances are what they arrange, even if it means buying and reselling their own books.

Essentially, the setup that PA has designed to entrap authors is diabolical, even though it would require no more than someone with an IQ of 60, possibly less, and a criminal mentality to develop it because it's so simple.

CaoPaux

09-10-2004, 12:12 AM

I presume y'all saw this:

-----
Infocenter
Administrator
9/09/2004
12:10:44

Message:
Laura, Chris is right. It was someone else who spoiled your thread.

All: here are the facts.

In the last week of August, some 6,000 royalty statements and checks were mailed out. On a dozen of those, an error was made that pertained to books sold in the last few days of July. The error was made not by us, but by Verisign, the company that processes credit card charges for all major online vendors, including PublishAmerica. They did not authorize payment until Monday August 2. July 31 being our cutoff date for royalty payments, our own system, understandably, did not recognize those Verisign payments as July payments.

Because a few authors alerted us to the occurence, we became aware of it, and we have started, immediately, to issue additional royalty checks to those involved.

No sinister plot behind it, no dark agenda, no grand conspiracy. Just an honest mistake made by others than PA. Once we identify it, we remedy it promptly.

Each March and September we receive up to 200 royalty questions, which explains why a response sometimes takes a few days. That's 200 out of 6,000, a whopping 3 percent. We are human, sometimes we screw up: of those 200 questions, typically less than 30 result in payment corrections, or one-half of a percent. In all other cases, we have it right, and the explanation always turns out to be pretty simple.

Usually the misunderstanding is caused by one of two factors. Either the author mistakenly believed that all retail sales are immediately paid to us (a misconception -- vendors routinely have up to 90 days to pay for the books they have actually sold, therefore a book sold as early as late April may very well not yet show up on your August statement), or the author was told by others that they had purchased their book while in reality they were afraid to admit that they had not.

Those who are unwilling to give anyone except themselves the benefit of the doubt will never be convinced by anyone about anything. But the truth is that Royalty Month is considered sacred at PublishAmerica. Never in the past five years have we missed our payment deadline for anyone, ever. And never have we failed to pay our authors their full due, including those rare occasions when we had to correct ourselves.

Please stop and think about it for just a second: we have about three weeks to assess and establish everyone's royalties, and one week to print statements and checks, stuff envelopes, and mail all 6000. Three weeks, that is 2000 per week, or 400 per day, or 50 per hour, or about one minute per author. It is mostly automated, but some human intervention is necessary, if only for quality control. Our net error rate is one-half percent, or 0,005 out of 100.

Granted, it's not perfect. But it's definitely not bad. Not bad at all.
------

I'm reminded of the tap dance scene in Chicago.

DaveKuzminski

09-10-2004, 12:28 AM

Okay, then what's their excuse for the other instance in which it happened in 2002 as reported to P&E by one PA writer?

There may be other instances, but those haven't been reported as yet to P&E. In the meantime, I think we're seeing a pattern here that's finally being halted.

James D Macdonald

09-10-2004, 12:36 AM

Did y'all know that you can check to see which books are actually on the shelves at Borders bookstores?

<a href="http://www.bordersstores.com/search/search.jsp?tt=gn" target="_new">Search Inventory</a>

A fun thing to do, for example, is to look at all the Borders Bookstores within, say, a hundred miles of Cleveland, Ohio, to see how many of them stock books by your favorite authors.

"Yes" means they have it in stock. "Order" means that the book will have to be special ordered.

XThe NavigatorX

09-10-2004, 12:50 AM

just to add to James' post above, if the listing has a "Shelf Location" it means it's been stocked at a Borders somewhere at some time.

Savannah Blue

09-10-2004, 01:06 AM

That whole post is just so full of holes and PA bs. If it wasn't so important to so many people it would almost be funny.

My take on it? Someone at PA has seen all the encouragement for authors to go to the IRS. Somebody is getting nervous!

I received my author copies yesterday from PA. What should have been one of the happiest days of my life passed by with hardly a notice. I just looked at the book and shook my head. Thanks PA! :gone

SB

James D Macdonald

09-10-2004, 01:07 AM

You'll be happy to know that three out of the six Borders closest to Cleveland Ohio have a book with a forward written by HapiSofi [not his real name] currently in stock, and six out of six have one or more titles by me (under one or another pseudonym).

(Note: I have never personally been in Cleveland; it's over 700 miles from my home, 450 from Sofi's.)

James D Macdonald

09-10-2004, 01:10 AM

Savannah, I'm really sorry about the thrill not being in it for you with the author's copies.

The day will come when you'll get the joy, when you have books in your hand from a real publisher, when your work and your hopes all pay off.

Just keep writing, keep working on your craft, keep submitting. It isn't easy, but it is entirely within reach.

Did you know, there was a full-page review for a first novel in last Sunday's New York Times Book Review. The door isn't closed.

DeePower

09-10-2004, 01:13 AM

"Never in the past five years have we missed our payment deadline for anyone, ever."

I haven't received my royalty check. Does this mean I'm the first?

Dee Power

Molly Brent

09-10-2004, 01:24 AM

Do me a favor and check out my book by the ISBN for Borders........just in case I need a witness that my book is in print and AVAILABLE TO BE ORDERED.

1413700985

There Ain't Enough Front Porches by Molly Marx Brent

My contract was cancelled in May and should be out of print and if they did not have any on hand, it should not be listed at all.

BTW, I'm sure it is a mistake but I have not received a check yet.......and the IRS did tell me they would investigate.

Molly

ProandCon

09-10-2004, 01:36 AM

Mr. MacDonald,

Are you saying PA's official cheerleader's books are not stocked on the shelf at Border's in Cleveland?

He told everybody on the private board during the recent rebellion that his books are available at all bookstores in the Cleveland area.

James D Macdonald

09-10-2004, 01:49 AM

He told everybody on the private board during the recent rebellion that his books are available at all bookstores in the Cleveland area.

If "available" he meant "in stock" and by "all" he meant "including at Borders," he appears to have been mistaken. Check it out for yourself. (Though it's possible that the last copies were sold yesterday and they're waiting for more to come in, I suppose.)

If by "available," he meant they could be special ordered, they can indeed be special ordered.

That's the standard PublishAmerica weasel-wording.

HapiSofi

09-10-2004, 01:51 AM

Dave, don't underestimate the sophistication of PublishAmerica's methods. Every component of an old-fashioned pocket watch is simple too. The art's in the way they all work together.

WM is an exploiter and abuser, but he isn't stupid, and PublishAmerica is the slickest, scammiest vanity publisher to date. I know you've cited some analyses (http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/002692.html) of their model, so I won't go into detail about it, but it really is damned clever. If you didn't have a good gut-level understanding of how publishing works, you could stare at it forever without spotting all the gimmes and gotchas built into it. Then, once it's got them signed, PA keeps its authors running in circles with makework marketing that never quite succeeds, telling them that the answer to all their doubts is to work harder and never give up. By the time the authors are disenchanted enough to start analyzing what's happened, they're too exhausted, confused, and depressed to sort things out. And if they complain, or even question the PA view of things, WM does his best to crush them with his appallingly abusive, guilt-inflicting letters. It's evil, but it works, and he's making piles of money.

In my opinion, we've been lucky. Melanie Mills had a certain flair for fraud, but WM is the only scammer whom I'd say has a genuine talent for what he's doing. If you look at this class of fraud as a business enterprise, most of its practitioners -- the Deerings, the Titsworths, Appel & Sterrs, James Van Treese, Cris Robins, Sprachman & Leonard, Gail Manchur, Cynthia Sterling, Martha Ivery, Fletcher & Anderson & Maast, et cetera ad slime mold -- have been slow-moving, unimaginative, untalented bumblers. They would have been mediocrities in any business they engaged in. Of all that lot, WM is the only one who smells like a business executive.

BTW, does it seem to you like there are fewer dimbulb vanity publishing operations than there used to be? I think PA's been taking their business away from them, romping like an allosaurus amongst the herbivores. If I'm right, well, it was bound to happen. Small-time crooks always wind up learning the hard way that if you're going to live in the jungle, you're either the biggest carnivore out there, or you're lunch.

Savannah Blue

09-10-2004, 02:10 AM

if you're going to live in the jungle, you're either the biggest carnivore out there, or you're lunch

I'll be happy when PA is somebody's lunch. Hopefully the IRS.

Thank you, Jim, for your kind, encouraging words.

SB

James D Macdonald

09-10-2004, 03:45 AM

Laura, Chris is right. It was someone else who spoiled your thread.

Let's say, just for the sake of argument, that InfoCenter isn't lying. (And recall that I and others predicted that the thread would be removed back when there was only one post in it....)

I'm the "someone else" that InfoCenter means.

Y'see, I have a copy of that complete thread, up to the moment that PA deleted it. There isn't anything in that thread aside from the first post that InfoCenter could possibly object to unless they're totally random and demented.

The Logo says that it wasn't Laura's post they objected to. It must have been my mentioning the thread here that made them delete it. (Not the first time that's happened, of course. PA keeps its eye on these boards.)

Or ... was The Logo lying?

DeePower

09-10-2004, 05:39 AM

PA's explanation:

"The error was made not by us, but by Verisign, the company that processes credit card charges for all major online vendors, including PublishAmerica."

Verisign is definately NOT the only company that processes credit card charges. And they process these charges for small businesses online as well as 'major' vendors.

When a merchant account is set up, it is conjunction with a bank. The bank has to have a agreement with the credit card companies. The bank looks at a credit card account like they do a loan, the vendor is in a way 'borrowing' the money from the bank, until the credit card company approves the transaction. The bank is the entity that authorizes payment, Verisign just processes the transaction through secure servers. Most of the time the transaction is approved immediately and the transfer of payment into the vendor's (in this case PublishAmerica) bank account is within 24 to 48 hours. PublishAmerica should know this. Verisign notifies the vendor by email when the cc transaction is approved and when the payment has been made.

From the logo's explanation:
"They did not authorize payment until Monday August 2. July 31 being our cutoff date for royalty payments, our own system, understandably, did not recognize those Verisign payments as July payments."

The cutoff date for the special offer was July 30. PA should have been aware the processing would take 24 to 48 hours. They should have known that authors ordering on July 29 and July 30 would not be eligible for the royalty if PA only pays out the royalty when it gets paid.

From PA's explanation:
"Because a few authors alerted us to the occurence, we became aware of it, and we have started, immediately, to issue additional royalty checks to those involved."

So even though the PA iron clad policy is not to pay royalties until PA is paid, they made an exception in this case.

From PA's explanation:
"No sinister plot behind it, no dark agenda, no grand conspiracy. Just an honest mistake made by others than PA."

Why did PA bring up "sinister plot," no dark agenda," and "no grand conspiracy?"

Dee
www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com (http://www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com)

DaveKuzminski

09-10-2004, 06:27 AM

Because PA is trying to convince everyone that they didn't mean to defraud anyone. The problem is that the authors can show how they were treated that way before as well as now. This defensive action on PA's part is a whole lot late because they can't change their accounting books from those other instances at this late date and expect anyone to believe those were all mistakes on the part of a credit company.

Besides, if just one of those authors used a debit check, then the money was automatically transferred at the time of the transaction. Want to explain that one, PA?

By the way, James, I think what brought it to the logo's attention was my comment after yours. I do tend to attract the nicest logos, you know.

James, I felt I had to expose that troll on that board to those other writers since not all of them frequent other boards. They had a right to know of his agenda. I put up with it until then when he left himself completely open and painted himself with his own words.

By the way, PA's explanation placing the blame on the credit company doesn't fly for several more reasons: First off, they initially told the writers a different story than what they're claiming now. Secondly, if those monies are rightfully due to the authors as a number of us, the afflicted PA authors, and, now, PA are stating, then that should have been reflected in the accounting books. This is because we all know that those funds became a payable the instant the purchases were made in accordance with PA's offer.

vstrauss

09-10-2004, 07:28 AM

>>BTW, does it seem to you like there are fewer dimbulb vanity publishing operations than there used to be?<<

Nope. To me, it seems like new ones are popping up every week (literally). The most recent wants authors to agree to buy 1,000 or more copies of their own books for a lousy 30% discount off a high cover price (we're talking $9,000 here), and has a hideous contract into the bargain. Like many sleazoid operations, it cloaks itself in its Christian focus.

Sigh.

- Victoria

DaveKuzminski

09-10-2004, 07:38 AM

Victoria, share the info with me. I'm willing to list them by name at P&E.

LaVerneRoss

09-10-2004, 08:51 AM

Molly, I didn't get a royalty check either. How many of us didn't? I have found my book has disappeared from a lot of online stores, with my own efforts. But Amazon told me they couldn't, cause they paid for books, they had to sell. They have one left, and more on the way. Even after I sent them proof they had no right to have it on their site, or sell. The personal emails from PA, spelling out my contract release. Told me also, that PA could recall the books. I told them I recieved no payment for anything sold, that they were splitting the price with PA and the printer. That is illegal I would think. Ingram said they removed it from their catalog.

I still suffer from so called reviewers who know nothing about my book, yet claim to do so. I know who started the mess, fanfic critics that hang out at fanfiction.net, doing the stalking, and I think there are some from another camp that have joined up.

DaveKuzminski

09-10-2004, 09:07 AM

LaVerne, if you haven't already, write to the Maryland Attorney General, the Frederick, Maryland BBB, and the Federal Trade Commission. That might give PA an incentive to notify those retailers and put things right for you.

Molly Brent

09-10-2004, 09:48 AM

LaVerne, I checked out your book on Amazon. They do say "one left and more on the way"

How can they have more on the way when your contract was cancelled?

Amazon UK still has the illegal cover.

She is worried about being sued and can't get them to remove it.

I thought the reviews were curel. If they didn't like the book, it could have been said in a more diplomatic and professional manner.

I don't think anyone should suffer this amount of ridicule, except PA.......which is where the blame belongs. She was promised a professioal editor.

The reviews sound to me very much like a bunch of snotty rich kids, picking on the poor kid.

LaVerne is a disabled mother of two with MAJOR PROBLEMS that I will not discuss but they are serious and have nothing to do with PA.

LaVerne has e mailed several times today. This lady is really suffering so please give her a break.

Molly

LaVerneRoss

09-10-2004, 10:14 AM

Hey Dave, I did those things. I think that is how I got my contract back. Since it came right after I did that, and contacted the IRS. Maybe I need to add to my complaints with them. Amazon even said, we are sorry you don't want your book with us. Are they idiots, are learning from the knee of another company? No publisher will touch it, well the third it comprises of the new book, with it still out there.

James D Macdonald

09-10-2004, 10:35 AM

Dave, I really don't agree that "exposing" the "troll" helped at all. Facts win, when stated calmly and clearly. Flaming just makes you look like the jerk. Getting PA supporters to talk helps the anti-PA case.

Meanwhile, Amazon's "more on the way" is probably generated by a robot any time the number in stock goes down to one or two copies, regardless of ordering status. I don't think that's anything, unless someone buys one, it goes out of stock, then they buy another.

Sometime tomorrow I may go over to my local Borders and try to order Molly's book, just to see what happens.

LaVerneRoss

09-10-2004, 10:43 AM

Thanks Molly, such warm support is very appreciated. I can use it right now, as you well know. I just wish those "Reviewers" would leave me alone, and stop emailing me, and stalking me everywhere. They even made a website about the book.

Bad enough the fight to get my book back with everything else going on. Without this added to everything else. As you saw Molly, most of it isn't the editing as much as picking on, making fun of my charactors, and putting me down.

I have been going through this with this group for 6 months or more now. Same people told me to die even. Too many nuts on the web.

publishorperish

09-10-2004, 11:47 AM

You have my sympathy. I, too, read the so-called review on livejournal. (Although, I would venture to say that it wasn't so much a review as an adolescent poop fest.) I'll admit that I did smile in laughter a little, but what struck me the most are two things: 1. You are not a bad writer. You just need polish. 2. The reviewer seemed not to understand that the sci-fi, fantasy, horror genres necessarily call for readers to suspend their disbelief. That is what makes those genres so much fun. I was more annoyed at the reviewer's lack of appreciation for the genre than anything, because it was just plain malicious.
Good luck with your writing and don't give up.

James D Macdonald

09-10-2004, 12:21 PM

This is getting rather far afield from PA. Let's just say that LaVerne's book shouldn't have been published in the form it was, and leave it at that.

Molly Brent

09-10-2004, 02:24 PM

James, I think this is very much PA's fault and they should be blamed.

I agree that it should not have been published but someone already proved that PA doesn't read the manuscript first.

And for an editor to let a book leave their desk that way is a disgrace. "Line by line editing"

She was given one hour to select another cover and it was approved by PA without question. "We work with our authors" She didn't know, they should have known.

Her contract was returned but they refuse to remove it from the online book stores.

She is being ridiculed, but her book is still selling, probably because of the publicity.

But, she is not being paid. In her situation even a small sum would help.

This makes me more determnined to go after them.

Savannah received her copies today and she was
very disappointed on what she thought would be a happy time. I know the feeling. It's sad and my heart breaks for her.

Breaking people's hearts may not be a crime, but that "we care about our authors" is more of their crap.

I lived in fear that I would be ridiculed because I am a first time author and knew my book needed an editor........after PA's editor got through with it, I almost had a nervous breakdown. Seriously.

One example I remember I wrote.
"The smile on his face was betrayed by the tears in his eyes."

It ended up being "He laughed" and he was at a funeral...

"He laughed" was taken from the ending of the previous paragraph and added as the beginning of the next.

If I had not fought them and had money for an editor, I'd be in her shoes right now.

Molly

James D Macdonald

09-10-2004, 05:37 PM

What's far afield from PublishAmerica is discussing reviews. Me, I don't read 'em -- they aren't there for the author's benefit. And if you ignore the bad ones, you have to ignore the good ones too.

This is a wonderful example for proving that their claim that they edit isn't true.

There are a thousand heartbreaks and indignities that get heaped on authors published by real publishers, of which bad reviews are one of the smallest. Still, your worst day with a traditional publisher is likely to be better than your best day with PublishAmerica.

arrowqueen

09-10-2004, 06:11 PM

Oooh! oooh! Thank you for that Search Inventory link, James. I went to it and found four of mine!

On a more relevant note, I do hope Molly and LaVerne get things sorted out. It's just another couple of examples of the shoddy treatment being dished out to decent people.

Cheers,
aq

DaveKuzminski

09-10-2004, 10:34 PM

James, try reading his remarks at www.publishamerica.com/cg...e/5839.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/5839.htm) if those are still there.

Risseybug

09-10-2004, 10:56 PM

But I look at that thread and :rofl :rofl :rofl !!! Especially the last poster. She said "If this one doesn't sell, RIGHT another one."

Not that people have to be perfect on message boards, fingers slip, but come on - at least know how to spell what it is you are trying to do to "make your dreams come true." You should at least have a mild command of the English lanugage, I think.

And what's up with that guy? He's calling you out, Dave. And the comment about people who "pay" to be published thinking they're better than him??? :ha
I guess he still hasn't figured out what traditional publishing really is.

I don't know whether to keep laughing or feel sick. Those poor people.

Whachawant

09-10-2004, 11:09 PM

WELCOME TO FUN WITH QUOTES.... (and yes this is meant in jest....enjoy)

....."thanks for the link, Dave"

"....All those who are laying blame at the feet of PA for their own failures are doing nothing more than refusing to admit the error of their ways......"
---one error being going with P.A. ....captin Highliner.

"my husband and son is doing their damnest to promote and pre sell...over 50 so far!".....
---wow.... big family!

f course I made reference to how silly these authors are, and what they consider "published"..........my entire comment on this message board was "cut and pasted".(heh ...lol)
f course I answered this very silly person (are you out there David)? *chuckle*...lol
I assume this post will be "cut and pasted". Silly, silly people with nothing to do. ---
------'lol...heh... call me silly ..I'm on my lunch break'

"For what ever reason these silly people think that they are cut ....(-not to mention a paste-)........above us, because they go out and "pay" to have their books published. :wha

---....of course...if you go to the link... this guy's so bored with his life, he's reading one of his own books...(probably wants to know how it ends)

"If your book is good, it will sell. Publishers don't always publish a bestseller. If this book doesn't do as well as you would like, right another one. The more "good quality" books you have out there, the more sells you will make"-----
----------this is one of P.A.'s editors...----

heh.. just lightening the mood...

ProandCon

09-10-2004, 11:23 PM

Risseybug wrote:

"You should at least have a mild command of the English lanugage, I think."

Why don't you learn to spell before you cast the first stone! I'm sorry I pointed that out but I just couldn't help myself!

I'm surprised at Amo's incorrect statement. Of course he could be referencing some authors that have paid to publish. PA authors do draw the sharks out to play.

How about you Risseybug? Did you pay? I hope you at least paid for a professional editing.

How does it feel to be called out for not spelling a word correct? Are you mad or hurt? Poor baby!

CaoPaux

09-10-2004, 11:31 PM

That's one of PA's editors?! *cough* The full text of that last post:

If your book is good, it will sell. Publishers don't always publish a bestseller. If this book doesn't do as well as you would like, right another one. The more "good quality" books you have out there, the more sells you will make. People don't know you from Adam. Keep taking steps forward, keep writing, and if you are meant to be a known author, well, then your efforts will pay off.
<mycoffeewastoostrongthismorningrant>

“If your book is good, it will sell.” If people can find it to buy it, at a price they’re willing to pay.

“Publishers don't always publish a bestseller.” If they don’t, it’s a failure of their purchasing editor, marketing team, etc., etc. But, as is often observed, the worst day at a “traditional” publisher is way better than the best day with PA.

“If this book doesn't do as well as you would like, right another one.” I also suggest finding out why, so you don’t make the same mistake(s). I.e, price, availability, poor editing, and/or a story no one wants to read.

“The more "good quality" books you have out there, the more sells you will make.” See first point.

“People don't know you from Adam.” Which is why publishers have marketing teams, etc., etc.

“Keep taking steps forward, keep writing, and if you are meant to be a known author, well, then your efforts will pay off.” If you are meant to…so all your effort is futile if you aren’t MEANT to be a known writer. Scary, that’s all I will say about that.

</mycoffeewastoostrongthismorningrant>

ProandCon

09-10-2004, 11:34 PM

---....of course...if you go to the link... this guy's so bored with his life, he's reading one of his own books...(probably wants to know how it ends)

Now that's funny! LOL

SRHowen

09-10-2004, 11:48 PM

Sorry, but there is a difference between a typo and incorrect usage--right for write. Many of the posts on the PA board do seem to be riddled with odd grammar--my husband and son is, -- you will make more sells -- I've seen there for their as well, it's for its, your for you're, and so on.

When editing I can ignore a typo, I mark it on my typo sheet or in the ms if I am doing a paper edit, and move on. But when a ms is overrun with usage errors, I am going to reject it. The point is--how did the very same things get by the editors at PA (and into the PA produced books)--they claim to have them (editors)? Easy, they used a spell check program, right is spelled correctly after all.

The writers there were promised an editor--an editor should have found those errors, and pointed them out, thus the writers should have learned the difference between right and write and no longer use the words incorrectly. But there they are, authors, and they continue to use weird (bad, and awful) grammar, and so on.

I don't use perfect grammar on a BB--but if you have perfected your writing craft, most of what you post is going to come out correctly punctuated, correctly spelled, with proper usage. And you would certainly think that by the time you had gone through the editing process with an editor that you would have learned something. (that first time through with an editor is grueling to say the least)(even an editor learns the error of their ways)

Unless of course you editor's first name is MS and their last is Word.

Shawn

DaveKuzminski

09-11-2004, 12:15 AM

Mr. Amoroso neglects to mention to the readers on the PA forum that he wasn't picked on for being a PA author as he claims. He was pointed out for being a troll and for failing to mention that his promotion of PA constituted a conflict of interest on his part because he is a PA author.

I suppose he's reading his book to see if PA's editors changed the ending.

vstrauss

09-11-2004, 02:13 AM

Folks, it's one thing to refute ignorant statements, or to point out errors of fact, or to call attention to strange/depressing/silly threads on the PA message board, or even to refer to PAvidians. But it would be nice if we could draw the line at making fun of individuals.

- Mom (a.k.a. Victoria)

Risseybug

09-11-2004, 02:21 AM

Actually, thank you for pointing that out. AS I SAID, if you had read the whole post, there is a difference between a slip of the fingers on the keyboard, causing a spelling error (in this case a mere trasposition of letters) and knowing the difference between RIGHT (meaning correct) and WRITE (which you are supposedly doing to great success). If you want to be a WRITER, this is pretty basic. Not that you can't have a great story, or a great imagination, but that someone better help you with the grammar. A GOOD, competent publisher would find and fix such an error- I doubt PA would have given one such as this a second thought.

Do you see the difference?

No, I didn't "pay" - I have submitted to traditional publishers who actually want to see my work, gratis. As in "if we accept this book, we will take full responsibility for editing, publishing and distribution, to ACTUAL stores, where you may walk in and purchase that book right off the shelf for a reasonable price. You may even return it if you are not satisfied". Meaning my only job would be to help promote my book, and to write my next one. And to collect a check.

So, sorry, no tears. Except for the poor deluded souls whos dreams will be crushed under the PA juggernaut.

By the way, what are you, six? As if a mere taunts could get me. You gotta be thick skinned in this business. Typos? Happen every day.

PS - Thanks, Shawn, for making my point before I did. I didn't see your post when I wrote this.
Victoria - you're right, making fun of individuals is not right. I guess there was no nice way of making that point. It wasn't supposed to be personal against that woman, just another example of how PA lets it's writers down by not introducing them to the simple rules of word usage. If you expect to be a writer, learn how to write. And it IS learned.

Molly Brent

09-11-2004, 02:54 AM

Remember yesterday when James gave us the Border's address to check out etc......... I was "in print and available." Today I am "no records match"

ISBN 1 4137 0098 5 There Ain't Enough Front Porches by Molly Marx Brent is still available on many of the online stores. Check Addall. I included this info so you can remove it from them and any others.

I'm sure they have always read what we write here, but somebody must be paying attention now.

Molly

Whachawant

09-11-2004, 04:14 AM

call attention to strange/depressing/silly threads on the PA message board, or even to refer to PAvidians. <---??????????

But it would be nice if we could draw the line at making fun of individuals. <-----?????

Are you not making fun now.... ????:rofl

"You have a sense of humor,...but you just don't know it!!!!":thumbs

James D Macdonald

09-11-2004, 05:37 AM

Spelling ability has very little to do with one's intelligence, education, or ability to tell a story. Spelling is a knack. Some people have it, some don't.

Picking on bulletin-board spelling and typoes is just silly. (It happens so often that it's a cliche that the person who flames another about spelling has a misspelling in the flame itself.)

Facts are in bounds for discussion, personalities and spelling are out of bounds. In my opinion. More or less.

Let your conscience be your guide.

Risseybug

09-11-2004, 06:03 AM

Yes, yes, I agree with you. As I said, nobody expects people to be perfect on message boards. Spelling mistakes are bound to happen. I also agree (as I think I posted) that it has nothing to do with creativity, imagination or the ability to tell a good story.
It is absolutely nothing personal to this person. But, as one of my character flaws, I am a grammar snob. Blame my mother who was a HS English teacher. Things like that, from adults especially, really get under my skin. That's middle school English stuff.

If someone claims they are a writer, they at least should have the good sense to know the proper use of simple words.
It all came out wrong, after rereading my orginal post regarding it, I realized that you thought I was laughing at her. I think my train of thought got all mushed together.

I guess my point is now moot, since I screwed up what I was trying to say. <shrug> Sorry.

DaveKuzminski

09-11-2004, 06:14 AM

Don't let it eat at you, Risseybug. We all have our imperfections. One of mine is little tolerance for trolls. Mr. Amoroso's was a need to boast about how he was trolling over at Writers Net.

He seems to forget that most of those writers are not published yet. They're in need of dependable information on publishing, not what one individual with a "marketing" background can do. That's because most of them will not have the contacts or background to repeat what Mr. Amoroso claims he has done. Consequently, Mr. Amoroso is doing them a disservice twice by doing his best to persuade them to go with PA and then market their own books.

Molly Brent

09-11-2004, 06:41 AM

I don't know what happened. I checked with Borders and it said "No matches" It also disappeared from Addall later........now it is back in print again........and on the online book stores.

Molly

DaveKuzminski

09-11-2004, 07:14 AM

Molly, a lot of times, the databases do a refresh. When that happens, it can do so from more than one source depending upon the internal design. Sometimes the source is the backup copy of the online database, so if that happens then the numbers will suddenly reappear that weren't there only hours before. It can play havoc with real inventories, but my guess is that they've got one for the inventory that is cross posted on a regular schedule to the one they use for ordering online. That way, they've always got the correct numbers, but those numbers on the online version can vary wildly until that next scheduled update.

Why does it happen? Because the online database is open to many users...buyers they hope. So, when a book is being viewed, it's normally locked from other users. However, that isn't good for sales, so they have redundant copies of the inventory pages download to each potential buyer. If a buyer locks in a purchase on the last copy, then the online version shows it as unavailable, but it might not have been purchased yet. If the buyer changes his mind, it returns to available. It's very convoluted, but it can work that way. There are other workable schemes as well. I know because I handle databases myself. Write those, too. In fact, I've done so for over twenty years. My first publications were articles and programs bought from me and published in computer magazines in the early eighties. I also wrote some computer manuals on a write for hire basis back then, too.

jafw

09-11-2004, 08:13 AM

Thanks Dave, for finally printing something that's easily checked.

I'm not discounting anyone's personal experience, but let's face it: We're all just people who don't know each other on a message board. We can say anything we want, so basing major life or business decisions shouldn't, IMHO, be based on other people's personal experiences on a message board.

Of course if there are enough of one side, that's different also. But in this little battle most of what I've seen is hearsay. Either PA has done something to someone (right or not) or PA has done everything they said they would (right or not also). But most of these things don't have evidence to back them up. Either "PA cheated me" or "PA's wonderful."

However, if you go to the website www.allwhois.com/ (http://www.allwhois.com/) and type in preditorsandeditors.com for your search, lo and behold, you'll never guess who owns the domain. (Which I might add is parked blank - no surprise there) It would indeed be strange for a legitimate business to do such a thing.

While I didn't so much doubt you Dave, it's really refreshing to see opinions in this discussion that can be backed up from sources other than one's self or one's own website.

Thank you. :clap :clap :clap

ProandCon

09-11-2004, 08:47 AM

call attention to strange/depressing/silly threads on the PA message board, or even to refer to PAvidians.

Victoria,

Thanks for calling me a PAvidian. I take that as a derogatory designation. Most likely you probably call ex PA authors that hang out here the same thing when they can't hear you. I am a PA author nothing more nothing less. Not once have I ever came on here and called anybody a bobblehead (a term used by some PA authors to describe some of you guys).

Oh, Rissybug. No, I am not six years old. If you were not so mad at my comments at the time, you would have seen that other post you mentioned. All you saw was red because your true meaness was revealed after you used another author's mistake as a laugh to condemn the PAvidians. The author probably saw that she made an error after she posted. Unfortunately the PA message board is not set up to allow you to edit your mistakes like you can do on this board. That author is a very nice lady who is a foster parent for several children.

Childish? Yes, you were but it sounds like you are trying to grow up after reading your last post.

publishorperish

09-11-2004, 09:30 AM

I've noticed, primarily from my correspondence with a particular PA author who has threatened to file criminal charges against me and to sue me for defamation, that PA authors like to call people who disagree with them "mean" and "jealous." They also like to personalize and invoke emotions into debates that should remain impersonal and unemotional (ex. She is a foster mother....) I've noted that this happens on the Publish America message board a lot. It is an amusing defense tactic to say the least.

DaveKuzminski

09-11-2004, 09:46 AM

ProandCon, it's not easy for everyone regardless of which side of the discussion they're on. Like it or not, there has been name calling. While it might be easy to complain about the terms used here, I think it should be kept in mind that Victoria, Ann, and others have been called far worse. One quite derogatory term used against them was a five-letter word for a streetwalker. I've been called a pornographer by individuals on the PA forum. I know that it was sanctioned by the PA staff because they pointed out to another individual they also targeted with me in their response to him to remove his name that he shouldn't have been associated with me in any manner.

PAvidian may sound harsh, but it does unfortunately describe the cult environment that envelops much of the PA forum to which it was originally directed. I might even point out that P&Evidian has been used similarly as a epithet by a PA author even though there is no such cult operating at P&E.

By the way, a number of former PA authors refer to themselves as exPAtriates which is also fitting. Then again, we're all writers and we get creative with the written word.

Please keep in mind also that PA supporters have frequently entered other forums to spread misinformation and, in doing so, have threatened or insulted writers whose only crime was to spread some truth. So yes, words are going to fly because those are the things that writers know best. Doesn't mean they always know when to use those words, but they do know 'em.

Just A Clerk

09-11-2004, 10:52 AM

Also Proandcon,

Remember that some on this board have referred to others as drunks and insinuated that they have fallen off the waggon when their arguments became weak. To a recovering alcoholic, that's even worse than being called a 5 letter word meaning street walker or a pornographer.

You see, it's okay for the advocates to name call authors because PA the company has libelled them. :smack

It's wrong no matter what side of the fence you are on. In fact, anyone who claims to be protecting victims should hold himself (or herself) at a *higher* standard than all others and therefore it is even an even greater wrong when they resort to name calling.

JohannaJ7

09-11-2004, 11:32 AM

Since you're not a woman, I doubt you know what it feels like to be called a whore.

James D Macdonald

09-11-2004, 12:47 PM

Please, everyone, a little calm. PA authors aren't the enemy. We are all writers, and deserve mutual support.

Reasoned discourse may help folks open their eyes; harsh words and personal attacks won't. Is it in anyone's interest to harden one another's attitudes?

Whachawant

09-11-2004, 01:02 PM

I agree ,...James...

This thread has gone on so long it's gotten off topic...
......

.....

perhaps maybe its time to close ...obviously the important parts were said in the first 50 pages.......

"all things.....' good or bad ' ......must come to an end"....

peace... ( or at least try )

James D Macdonald

09-11-2004, 02:33 PM

Nah, not time to close it yet. We still have the Top Ten Big Spenders list to look forward to (the folks who'll have their books in that famous NYT ad), just for one example.

Risseybug

09-11-2004, 05:29 PM

ProandCom, I'm just going to let it go. OK. I said it was nothing personal.

Ed Williams 3

09-11-2004, 06:25 PM

...the amounts of money rumoured that some of the PA authors are willing to spend to purchase enough of their own books to get into this New York Times ad. The sad thing is, even if it created some demand for their books, where would anyone go to purchase one? To me, this is one of the cruelest hoaxes that our friends over there in literary neverland have pulled to date.

James D Macdonald

09-11-2004, 07:25 PM

...to purchase enough of their own books to get into this New York Times ad.

Well, I hear there's a hard winter coming. If they laid in eight or ten cords of books they won't have to worry about heating their houses.

Seriously, you're right. Have they thought through exactly what the mechanism will be to get the books from their basement to a potential buyer's hands?

But I understand it. 'Deed I do. The thought in every author's heart is, "If only people would read it, they'd love my book as much as I do." They know that advertising is an important part of the mix -- but they don't know where and how to advertise books (an ad in Publishers Weekly before the book comes out is worth a dozen in the New York Times months later). Nor will they be able to get the books on the shelves other than the way they've already done it -- by going to bookstore owners in person, hat in hand, to beg.

An ad in the Times for an unknown would only have a marginal effect in any case, but the effect would rely on having the book on the shelves in the readers' local area.

We'll see. Using what crude tools I have here, I'll be tracking 'em.

Dhewco

09-11-2004, 10:08 PM

I was wondering if....maybe the whole idea behind the poor editing is to so blacklist the authors that they are forced to go with PA for their next book? Just a thought.

LaVerneRoss

09-11-2004, 11:05 PM

I recieved an email from PA yesterday where they claim they still own my book rights, and will until such time I send them the paperwork. Apparently they are up to something. They can't use the same carrot twice. But as you can see here, this email states that I was released before any paperwork was sent to me. The paperwork was dated. August 2,2004. So this is earlier. The paperwork was just to gag me. But shouldn't be legal, as they had already released me.

Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 13:01:16 -0400
To: NovelistRoss@wmconnect.com
From: "Author Support" <support@publishamerica.com>
Subject: Night Travels of the Elven Vampire - contract termination

Plain Text Attachment [ Download File | Save to my Yahoo! Briefcase ]

Dear Ms. Ross:

Your contract has been terminated, and your book
removed from our listings
on 30 July 2004.

Thank You,
Author Support Team
Support@PublishAmerica.com

vstrauss

09-11-2004, 11:51 PM

>>Victoria,

Thanks for calling me a PAvidian.<<

Mr. Pro, where did you get the impression that I was addressing you? My post, which was attempting to make points you yourself have made under your own name and various aliases, did not reference you at all.

- Victoria

HapiSofi

09-12-2004, 02:49 AM

LaVerne, if they terminated your side of the contract, they terminated their own as well. They don't own your book, and they don't own any other rights. All that remains is to formalize and tidy up the termination.

Are they by any chance telling you that they have a bunch of extra copies of your book lying around their office, and they want you to buy them before they'll revert the title, on threat of losing your copyright if you don't do it?

HapiSofi

09-12-2004, 02:59 AM

ProandCon, I don't like you. You're constantly unpleasant, and the conversation always gets murkier and less useful when you're around.

ProandCon

09-12-2004, 03:25 AM

ProandCon, I don't like you. You're constantly unpleasant, and the conversation always gets murkier and less useful when you're around.

HapiSofi,

What do you want me to do? Cry or be scared?

I can't say that I am impressed with you either. I've seen your posts on other boards. Almost put me to sleep!

I see you like to attack people when they speak up? Lay back on your sofa and leave me alone!

lindylou45

09-12-2004, 03:40 AM

HapiSofi

09-12-2004, 04:14 AM

Ah. Confirmed.

Thanks, sucker.

ProandCon

09-12-2004, 04:34 AM

HapiSofi,

See you got back off that sofa too fast! Take a deep breath and slow down before you utter more trash. It is unbecoming to a person of your perceived stature.

You just think you have something confirmed.

The name calling does confirm that you are not the nice person you try to portray. All one has to do is read your posts on other boards to see the venom racing through your veins.

Risseybug

09-12-2004, 05:03 AM

And you spend your time harassing people when you should be working on your next book. Or promoting your current one.
So not worth it.

Uh. Ok, back to the topic, please?

ProandCon

09-12-2004, 05:59 AM

Rissybug wrote:
And you spend your time harassing people when you should be working on your next book. Or promoting your current one.

I agree with you Rissybug about HapiSofi. It is not right for people like HapiSofi to be harassing me. He/she attacked me out of the blue.

I've never said a word to that particular person in the past. It is terrible how a person can get attacked on this board just by association.

I think a letter campaign should be started to get HapiSofi banned from this board (Heck maybe even from the internet) for attacking innocent people.

Whachawant

09-12-2004, 06:38 AM

.......Getting back on the P.A...... complaints train..(which is headed for a cliff)

We've got almost 110..pages of this thread....

Maybe we should print it off... and send it to P.A. as a MS... and see if they publish it..
....of course we'll have to take our time and read the contract carefully.....:ha

Irene Keyes

09-12-2004, 06:53 AM

I haven't posted in this thread before, but I actually discovered the AW boards because of PA. An acquaintance of mine published a book; I bought one (exorbitantly priced) at a book signing. The book was so poorly written I knew it had to have been printed by a vanity press. Someone else thought so too and asked said acquaintance about it (probably not the best of manners!) and the author stated that he had received an advance and would receive royalties. I KNEW it couldn't be true (you should read this thing) and googled Publish America. Found the recommendation at P&E and followed links to this board. Was subsequently thrilled to find James MacDonald hanging around (I read fantasy) and stayed to lurk and learn in the Novels Writing thread, though I like to check down here to see how things are going.

What I have learned about Publish America has horrified me, and what horrifies me the most is that PA misrepresents itself to new writers -- luring them into a situation that for many causes tremendous grief -- and then is so terribly abusive toward them. Ugh.

I commend everyone who continues to warn writers about this company, and I wish all luck to those fighting to get rights back, etc.

P.S. This is a good discussion, and I think it's inevitable that (fairly) clever trolls will try to derail it.

Ed Williams 3

09-12-2004, 07:25 AM

...that they are PA trolls...

DaveKuzminski

09-12-2004, 08:07 AM

I should like to remind everyone that PA has never sued Preditors & Editors (tm) and I have not heard of any writers yet who were sued by PA for telling the truth about PA. Then ask yourself why PA hasn't sued if its claims are true and we're telling lies? Wouldn't they stand to gain sympathy and status among writers, especially those who are unpublished? That, in itself, should tell all writers something important. PA can't sue us because truth is a defense against libel. PA doesn't want the truth put into evidence.

Regarding the email that PA sent, it probably is binding in and of itself. Why? First, because federal law was changed to recognize electronic signatures. Second, PA has already informed many of its writers that it prefers to communicate electronically. PA communicated in a manner that PA authors expect. I doubt that it matters that a section was signed rather than an individual's name since that is also typical in PA electronic communications.

Basically, what I'm stating here is that PA can't have it both ways. They can't refuse to sign correspondence in order to avoid being quoted so that they can later avoid responsibility by stating it was someone they fired and then claim that the reversion message wasn't signed so it isn't valid. I truly believe a court would take that into consideration and reach the same conclusion that all of their messages would have to carry the same weight. Based on that, I also believe you have grounds to take them to court for illegally selling your book after releasing your rights.

Molly Brent

09-12-2004, 09:17 AM

Ed, you really think we have trolls or is it just one with multiple personalities?

Molly

Ed Williams 3

09-12-2004, 09:25 AM

...is getting a lot of attention, and that there are certain reps for a well known vanity POD that would like to derail it. I have gotten more than one email from authors who were considering PA and decided against it based on some things that they read here. And to me, that's what it's all about - PA is the ultimate bottom feeder in the literary business, and it is my wish that they go down the toilet just as quickly as is humanly possible.

DaveKuzminski

09-12-2004, 09:31 AM

Ed? They're that high on the food chain? ;)

James D Macdonald

09-12-2004, 09:37 AM

HapiSofi has a good reputation, based on his obvious knowledge of the publishing industry and long history of accurate and insightful posts. His explanations are clear, easy to follow, and engagingly written.

ProandCon, please email me, in confidence, with your bonafides.

As always, those things that are told me in private will remain private.

LaVerneRoss

09-12-2004, 09:56 AM

Thanks Dave for confirming that for me. They can't delete this thread as they would like. I was thinking, I should send these emails to all the ones mentioned earlier, as evidence of what PA is now pulling. They get bolder with time.

I think if they sued anyone, authors would come out of the woodwork, with all their evidence and there are a lot of us who would stand, and speak. The attention would probably bring them down.

They did not mention they had any books they wanted me to buy. Just that they still had all rights to the book. Until I signed their papers. A lie of course.

This will just cause problems getting a publisher to take it now, even rewritten, edited and put together with its sequel. From what I am seeing on the net, this first book will haunt me for a long time. Even if my other two books should be successful, the stain will remain, even if only I can see it. I can't even use my own name to write under now. I am glad so many others have avoided PA, because of places like this and P&E.

Molly Brent

09-12-2004, 09:57 AM

Ed, you know how I feel about PA. I now have a claim against them, with all the info from the fraud disvision of the FBI, among others. I am going to share it with Dave so he can add some others to it. I think it is important that we stick together.

I was thinking
the our con man seems to be a man who uses big words and speaks intelligently, then on another it sounds like
a fragile, little flower wanting somebody to do something about the bad bullies picking on the poor dear.

It could be a slight distraction, but nothing major.

Also, welcome Irene.

Molly

Molly Brent

09-12-2004, 10:12 AM

I'm with James on his opinion of Hapi. I like Hapi and
hopefully, nobody thought I was implying that Hapi was a bully when I was being flip.

Molly

Ed Williams 3

09-12-2004, 10:37 AM

....as sub bottom feeders?

:jump

lindylou45

09-12-2004, 02:58 PM

....as sub bottom feeders?

More like whale dung.

James D Macdonald

09-12-2004, 04:20 PM

Some folks may have wondered what Dave and I were on about, a couple of pages back, since we were referring to things posted on another board.

Here's a link to the <a href="http://www.writers.net/forum/read/1/18470/18470" target="_new">thread on Writers.net</a>.

D Dawes

09-12-2004, 10:16 PM

To date, PA still has not sent me a royalty check, and it appears they are actively marketing my book now that the contract has terminated. My sales are soaring on both barnes and noble and amazon.com in Canada. They fudged the digits on my first royalty statement, and I'm sure if I ever receive the second statement it will not reflect an accurate number of sales.
www.amazon.ca/exec/obidos...06-2361638 (http://www.amazon.ca/exec/obidos/ASIN/1413707769/qid=1094999591/sr=1-7/ref=sr_1_2_7/702-6952706-2361638)
search.barnesandnoble.com...7769&itm=3 (http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=35W50CM7P9&isbn=1413707769&itm=3)

Here's a web link www.maloneyandmaloney.com...Fraud7.asp (http://www.maloneyandmaloney.com/CM/ConsumerFraud/ConsumerFraud7.asp) to a multi-facet law firm that handles consumer complaint issues on a contingency basis nationwide; but like the FTC,AG,FBI Fraud division, it will take multiple complaints to pique the interest of an attorney that is willing to handle a Class Action case on a contingency basis. Therefore, if you have reason to believe that PA has defrauded you by fudging the digits on your royalty statements, send those letters out today. Here's the email address: info@maloneyandmaloney.com

CaoPaux

09-12-2004, 11:49 PM

A point from that writers.net thread that merits repetition for the "PA is not a vanity publisher because you don't pay them up front" camp:

-----
...PA is an "author mill"

sfwa.org/beware/subsidypublishers.html (http://sfwa.org/beware/subsidypublishers.html)

“A slightly different issue is the "author mill"--a company that publishes a very large number of authors in the expectation of selling a hundred books or so from each (as opposed to publishing a limited number of authors in hopes of selling thousands of books from each, as commercial publishers do). Author mills don't require authors to make any financial expenditures at all, hidden or otherwise. However, they do rely on their authors as their major source of income (through books purchased by the author for re-sale, or sold to "pocket" markets the author him/herself is responsible for identifying), and so can be defined as vanity publishers, despite the lack of upfront or other charges. Also, author mills tend to share a business model with vanity publishers: no editorial screening of submissions, no meaningful pre-publication editing, no meaningful post-publication marketing or distribution.”
-----

HapiSofi

09-13-2004, 02:08 AM

Thanks, Molly. I wasn't in doubt about it.

GigiSahi

09-13-2004, 06:30 AM

I wish to begin by cordially greeting everyone who has ever posted to this thread. Over the course of three months, I have read every post. As stated in my subject line, I am a PA author. My upcoming novel, "Shame the Devil" is my debut.

I have taken all the warnings to heart--after the fact. Yet, I do not wish that I'd discovered them sooner. I look at life as a learning experience. When we stop learning, we stop living. I don't believe any dog is too old to learn new tricks. But enough with the philosophical crap.

When I completed my ms, over two years ago, I made it my duty to learn all I could about the publishing industry. I researched on the internet, at my local public library and purchased $200 worth of books about publishing; all of which I read from cover to cover--with highlighter in hand. I even looked into starting an independent small press, which is not a financially viable option for me at this time. With the firm belief that I had a good grasp on how the publishing industry worked, I paid a pretty penny to have my ms edited. Edited ms in hand, I made numerous copies and sent one off to have my copyright registered.

I then sent out 50 query letters to various literary agencies representing writers of my genre, which for my debut novel would fall into the Urban/Hip-Hop Literature category. Of those 50, I received 3 replies after waiting four months. All professional replies. All wishing me success in my writing career and all informing me that they are not presently taking on any new clients.

I was struck with genius. I decided to cut out the middle man (meaning literary agents) and contact publishing houses directly. I contacted 50, for some reason I like that number, of all the names we know and love. I waited four months. Replies: 0.

I now looked into POD's. What bothered me about them is, after paying a POD to publish your book, the company continues to reap a profit on every book sold while you wait around for them to pay you royalties on a book that you paid them to publish. WOW!

I now entered contests. If my mss were ever received, someone forgot to inform me; although I always included the requested SASE in order to be informed as such. But I take it from my cancelled checks, which covered the entry fees, that my mss were indeed received. Whether or not they were read....

I revisited contacting publishing houses directly; knowing there are more than 50. Via an on-line search of "publishers accepting un-agented submissions", after by-passing all POD's, along came Publish America. Not knowing of their notorious reputation, I clicked on their website. I was sold on their slogan: "We treat our authors the old-fashioned way--we pay them." I was also sold on not having to pay them to publish my book. According to my extensive readings and research, that was a mark of a legitimate publishing house.

I clicked on "acquisitions". A blank email screen popped up. In a short email, I told them a little about myself and my book then attached my ms. About a month later, I received the email that every PA author received upon being "accepted". You know, the one about giving us the chance we deserve. I downloaded and read the sample contract. Seven years did seem rather lengthy but, I was just days shy of my 33rd birthday. What's seven years when you're 33? I emailed PA and agreed to the terms of the contract. A week later, my contract arrived in the mail. I signed and returned it. A couple of weeks later, I filled out their emailed author's questionnaire (AQ) and re-attached my ms as requested. That was in April of this year.

As of today, I have not heard a single word nor received a single email about the status of my ms or which phase of production it's in. All I know is, and this is according to my contract, that my novel will be published within a year of signing the contract. Given the volume of PA authors and their still having a seven month window, it is very possible that they haven't even gotten around to my ms yet. This is what I tell myself to avoid taking a trip to Maryland. I live in NY and MD's only a 6-hour drive away. On their website, PA does invite their authors to visit their headquarters if they happen to be in their neck of the woods. I wonder how many PA authors have actually taken them up on their invite. Maybe I'm being picky but I think as a professional practice, publishers ought to communicate with their authors. Besides that little quirk of mine, in all fairness, I must say that I PERSONALLY have no PA horror stories to share. But, I suspect that will change. If it doesn't, given this thread, I'll be rather disappointed.

I look forward to having my first novel published. I've wanted to be a writer since I was 8. So, this is a dream come true for me. Everyone knows that dreams are symbolic. Just like the $1.00 advance PA sends its authors. I know the odds are greatly stacked against me. I know most will not even recognize me as a legitimate author once I tell them that PA published my book. I know my book will not sell many copies. Sure, I sent PA a list of 40 family members and friends. But I'm better off relying on the kindness of strangers for book sales as my family and friends all want free, autographed copies.

It's all been a wonderful learning experience, however. I've even added it to my memoirs. Maybe PA will give me another one of those deserved chances when it comes time to publish them. Maybe they'll read this and will actually communicate with me by way of an email canceling my contract. Maybe the publishing industry in its entirety will be reformed to include less scams and become more author-friendly. Come what may, I'm presently selecting another 50 publishers to shop my second novel to. Maybe I'll find one that's ethical. Maybe I'll find one that believes I'm a talented writer and won't hold who I published my first novel with against me. Maybe I'll find one that's fed up with all the red-tape, rip-offs and other grief that new authors face. Maybe I'll find a few private investors to back me and I'll start my independent small press. I couldn't do any further damage to the publishing industry if I tried. But that's another rant entirely.

~Gigi

JohannaJ7

09-13-2004, 07:20 AM

Gigi, I can't believe the rotten luck you've had. I don't much care for contests where you have to pay to enter, myself. And maybe it's an American thing to copyright your ms yourself, but I was under the impression that publishers like to do that for their authors once the ms has been accepted?

Either way, sending out 50 queries and getting no replies seems strange as hell (how did you find out about these publishers? If you got them out of a book, chances are a lot of them aren't in business anymore or have moved their offices since the book was written.) Did these publishers even accept queries? Did you send your actual ms to any publishers (other than PA)?

Whatever you do with PA, please don't buy loads of your own books or you'll end up in deeper financial sh*t that you would by opening your own small press, I guarantee it.

SRHowen

09-13-2004, 08:48 AM

Did you include a SASE (self addressed stamped envelope)--

<shakes head>

Can't imagine sending out 50 and not hearing on any of them--did you send just a query letter? Or the complete ms?

Shawn

DaveKuzminski

09-13-2004, 09:18 AM

Gigi, I've read a few books on publishing and being published. Those all advised against registering the copyright, so I'm surprised that you did that after purchasing and reading $200 worth of books on publishing. Regardless, I'd like to hear later how you are doing, so please post again.

Molly Brent

09-13-2004, 09:26 AM

I think you meant Gigi.

Gigi, e mail PA and ask them the status of your ms.
Send it to the attention of Sarah Becker. She is the supervisor of editing. It seems to be easier to get a quick response if you deal with a person instead of support......she will tell you who your editor is and you can communicate directly with your editor.

Check your "corrected" proofs........after they make the corrections, check them again and again until they are the way you want. If they give you a hard time, stand your ground. They do make mistakes when correcting the mistakes so keep checking them.

When you get your author's copies,
check to make certain that the right set was sent to the printer.

Do not plan any book signings until you have the books in your hand. They may not arrive in time. Even if they promise you they will arrive in time, don't believe it.

Many have gone on from PA to be very successful and you are very young.

There are a lot of very nice people here for support and you can ask questions about other publishers etc.......

Good luck and if I may be of service, please contact me I don't know much about publishing but I am an expert on problems with PA.

BTW, if I don't answer e mails, we just heard that the storm may be headed our way.

Molly

aka eraser

09-13-2004, 09:41 AM

Just based on your post Gigi, I'd buy your book...if it wasn't published by PA. I don't want to add any dollars to their coffers.

Maybe you'll fall between the cracks and they won't get back to your book within the year stated in your contract. That, however faint, possibility would keep me from contacting them to find out its status.

I feel for you though. Balanced against what you know now about PA is the desire to hold your "baby." It's a shame you didn't get a better ratio of responses from your other subs. I can't figure out why. 8% is abysmal.

But you are young and obviously literate. You've got lots more words in you that folks will want to read. I wish you the best.

XThe NavigatorX

09-13-2004, 11:22 AM

That's really odd, gigi. You've had some terrible luck. Are you sure you don't have a psychotic mailman?

I keep track of everything, and I just went back and looked at my own track record regarding agents. Over the years I have sent a total of 47 queries to agents, and I (eventually) heard back from 42 of them.

Publishers is about the same (short story market is waaaaay different though.) The shortest it ever took me to get a rejection is two minutes (via email). The longest was 17 months (Baen. Gotta love 'em. They read the entire manuscript though and gave me a very detailed rejection.)

vstrauss

09-13-2004, 08:24 PM

Actually not so odd, I think. Gigi's genre (urban/hip hop) has a growing audience but it's still a pretty specialized market. There are some independent publishers that focus on this kind of fiction, and a few of the larger houses are also starting to buy books in this genre (for instance, Kensington's recently-launched Urban Books; I also think that Atria, an imprint of Simon & Schuster, does some urban lit), but there aren't a lot of them--certainly nowhere near 50. And one would need to do a bit of specialized digging--which publishing books wouldn't necessarily help with--to find out which ones.

Some good info is here: www.theblacklibrary.com/ (http://www.theblacklibrary.com/)

- Victoria

aka eraser

09-13-2004, 09:37 PM

What's odd I think Victoria is the lack of response at all. Refusals from an inappropriate market can be expected but her ratio of non-responses is exceedingly high, unless, as Shawn suggested, she didn't include a SASE or her email fritzed.

Kate Nepveu

09-13-2004, 10:48 PM

Slush turnaround often takes much longer than four months; possibly query turnaround too, though I'm not sure.

DeePower

09-14-2004, 12:31 AM

For educational purposes:

On the PA message board:

www.publishamerica.com/cg...e/5915.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/5915.htm)

--- snip
PA certainly must have thought your work was good enough or otherwise they would not have accepted it!!! Publishing is a big business, and if PA thought our books couldn't sell they wouldn't have accepted them. As it costs them money to print the books up and the process that goes into getting them ready for print.
-----

It's just not right. These people are going to be so disappointed to learn the truth. It's not the author's fault. PA set them up. PublishAmerica accepts just about anything, including a manuscript with the same 30 pages cut and pasted over and over again.

On another topic.

Remember when the Latin or Greek filler was used as a placeholder on several PA pages.

Well here is what is on the PA websites now. I've already sent hard copy to the Maryland District Attorney.

www.publishamerica.com/fi...publisher/ (http://www.publishamerica.com/fiction-publisher/)
Most of the time when using a science fiction publisher, or young adult publisher, the author is not permitted to retain the copyrights over their own fiction.

www.publishamerica.com/ch...ublishers/ (http://www.publishamerica.com/childrens-book-publishers/)
In addition, the majority of children's book publishers do not allow the author to retain the copyright of their book.

www.publishamerica.com/po...ublishers/ (http://www.publishamerica.com/poetry-publishers/)
"Believe it or not, most poetry publishers do not allow the author to retain the copyrights over their own poetry."

www.publishamerica.com/ch...ublishers/ (http://www.publishamerica.com/christian-book-publishers/)
As an added benefit, as a Christian book publisher we allow our authors to retain the copyrights over their work.

www.publishamerica.com/ho...published/ (http://www.publishamerica.com/how-to-get-published/)
In addition, we pride ourselves in allowing our published authors to retain their copyright
privileges.

Dee
Co-author of "The Making of a Bestseller," Dearborn Trade,
March 2005
www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com (http://www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com)

HapiSofi

09-14-2004, 12:53 AM

"Urban/Hip-Hop" isn't really a genre. It's a descriptive marketing term. At most mainstream publishers, a book like that would be classed as 00/Fiction. You need an agent who knows what he or she is doing.

But stay away from PA. Seriously. They aren't out to do you any good, which you might be able to cope with; but they aren't out to publish and sell books, either, and there's no coping with that.

Risseybug

09-14-2004, 01:03 AM

OMG! :jaw How could they even put that on the site, when we all KNOW it's not true!!!!
Boy, they've got some big brass ones. All it takes to dispel this falsehood is to walk into a bookstore and pick up any book. The copyright notice almost ALWAYS has the authors name on it, not the publisher's.

People out there, don't fall for the lies. PA is out to do nobody any good.

I need an emoticon that shakes its head in disbelief. I guess I'll settle for :head :ssh

James D Macdonald

09-14-2004, 02:01 AM

Everyone -- PA booster, PA detractor, PA employee or owner, those who are just curious, first time authors and old pros -- go get a copy of <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0809325756/ref=nosim/madhousemanor" target="_new">Ten Percent of Nothing</a> by Jim Fisher.

You owe it to yourself to see the story behind the Dorothy Deering Agency and Sovereign Publications.

Roxie the Doxie

09-14-2004, 02:03 AM

I am sure all of you have seen this, but here it is as a refresher in case anyone doubting PA's reputation.

www.publishamerica.com/facts/index.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/facts/index.htm)

James D Macdonald

09-14-2004, 02:15 AM

Most of the time when using a science fiction publisher, or young adult publisher, the author is not permitted to retain the copyrights over their own fiction.

This is a complete, utter, side-to-side and end-to-end lie.

A fib. A taradiddle. An untruth. A misrepresention. A prevarication. A distortion. A fish story. A cannard. A crock of sh*t.

And those are its good points.

False, proveably false, infamously false.

Is PublishAmerica getting sloppy, getting arrogant, or getting desperate?

publishorperish

09-14-2004, 02:34 AM

Jim - Maybe a little of all three. PA's legal department must bite.

On a lighter note: http://www.rockpapersaddam.com/

vstrauss

09-14-2004, 02:45 AM

>>Is PublishAmerica getting sloppy, getting arrogant, or getting desperate?<<

It's getting traffic. Try typing "fiction publisher" into Google and see what comes up as #1.

- Victoria

James D Macdonald

09-14-2004, 03:17 AM

And the link that takes you to next... <a href="http://www.publishamerica.com/benefits.htm" target="_new">Benefits</a>.

Misleading, deceptive, and false throughout, yet seductive to the new, naive writer.

I'm feeling the urge to do a line-by-line on that one.

I really hate what they're trying to do to my brother and sister authors.

AnneMarble

09-14-2004, 03:27 AM

Most of the time when using a science fiction publisher, or young adult publisher, the author is not permitted to retain the copyrights over their own fiction.

Now what are the people who claim that PublishAmerica never lies going to say to this? :shrug Or will they say it doesn't count because it's not in a contract?

Anyway, I thought the Greeking made more sense... :bang

CaoPaux

09-14-2004, 03:27 AM

And the link that takes you to next... Benefits.
Oh. My. God. That #1 alone...how Clintonesque: "Your honor, it depends on what the definition of 'in' is."

Please, Uncle Jim, a rebuttal as only you can give. :hail

James D Macdonald

09-14-2004, 03:53 AM

Have y'all seen PA's disclaimer on their site?

<BLOCKQUOTE>
This site is provided by PublishAmerica, Inc. on an "as is" basis. PublishAmerica, Inc. makes no representations or warranties of any kind, express or implied, as to the operation of the site, the information, content, materials or products, included on this site. To the full extent permissible by applicable law, PublishAmerica, Inc. disclaims all warranties, express or implied, including but not limited to, implied warranties of merchantability and fitness for a particular purpose. PublishAmerica, Inc. will not be liable for any damages of any kind arising from the use of this site, including but not limited to direct, indirect, incidental punitive and consequential damages.</blockquote>

<a href="http://www.publishamerica.com/disclaimer.htm" target="_new">www.publishamerica.com/disclaimer.htm</a>

In other words, they lie, they know they lie, and it's your fault if you believe them.

Myself, I don't think this disclaimer protects them half as much as they think it does, but IANAL.

GigiSahi

09-14-2004, 04:01 AM

Thanks for all the advice, info and humor. It was helpful and fun. I like this board--lots of great and informed minds at work here.

~ Gigi

publishorperish

09-14-2004, 04:09 AM

Sounds like a standard, boilerplate disclaimer. I doubt that it is a defense to false advertising. They probably cribbed it off some other company's website.

James D Macdonald

09-14-2004, 04:21 AM

Hi, GigiSahi --

Anything I could say here is probably off topic, so...

Obligatory On-topic Comment: You'd be nuts in the head to consider PublishAmerica.

Now ...

Get the guidelines for the following publishers:

UpStream Publications
Triple Crown Publications
Atria
Teri Woods Publishing
Strebor Books
Dafina
Miramax
Harlem Moon
Dutton Books
Kensington Pub Corp.

When you have their guidelines, put 'em in order of which ones you'd most like to be published by.

Then, follow those guidelines to the letter. If you get a "no" from one publisher, that same day write to the next one on your list.

Meanwhile, work on your next book.

Later, come back and tell us how you made out.

CaoPaux

09-14-2004, 05:23 AM

www.publishamerica.com/cg...s/2119.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/newauthors/2119.htm)

Roze
9/13/2004
18:34:13

Message:
Let's just face it guys, we are going to have hell of a time selling our books to bookstores, because of "no return policy of PA." I tried, only God knows how I tried. Only to have one refusal after the other. PA should change their policy if they want us to sell our books.

My book sale and my first check was a joke.

Sorry, I had to vent.......

One sad sad PA author...

Roze........
Roze Dawson
www.rozedawson.com
RozeDawson@aol.com
ISBN 1-4137-2392-6
"Yesteryears, The Pain Left Unhealed"

-----

FYI - Her book became available in March ’04.

arainsb123

09-14-2004, 06:28 AM

That thread will be gone by 9:00.

Sher2

09-14-2004, 06:29 AM

My book sale and my first check was a joke.
Sorry, I had to vent.......
One sad sad PA author...

FYI - Her book became available in March ’04.

That is truly sad. No longer an uncommon story, but sad.

dgkgoldberg

09-14-2004, 08:16 AM

Gigi/Sahi
you might want to add soft skull and nightshade to that publisher list.

DaveKuzminski

09-14-2004, 08:45 AM

Read why the author omitted mentioning who his first book was with at URL www.publishamerica.com/cg...e/5905.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/5905.htm)

AnneMarble

09-14-2004, 09:37 AM

Read why the author omitted mentioning who his first book was with at URL www.publishamerica.com/cg...e/5905.htm

Not anymore. :shrug

That must have been a "dangerous" post, it was pulled quickly and the one about the returns policy and low royalties was still standing.

Whachawant

09-14-2004, 11:22 AM

O.K...

I'm tired of sob stories... although I must sympathize..
with all who have had hardship...

Chances are the response has already been posted many a time.......

But seriously...

Has anyone here filed a lawsuit and won..?...and on what grounds....

Has anyone here filed against P.A. and lost and on what grounds?...should that require additional investigation..? (as in why did the court rule in favor of P.A.? loop hole?...)

Should any law that they are abiding by be change so that it doesn't meet certain criteria?(i.e. loopholes)
abiding by any illegitimate publisher posted....?

Should P.A. go under an I.R.S. investigation?

Is it possible that P.A. (as a result of forged paperwork),.. be able to file bankruptcy and the owners/ceo/shareholders start a new terror on the literary world..(obviously if nobody is receiving income from their books, then technically the company cannot be receiving any revenue, through the process of backtracking the logs.. ) ???

So ...is this company expanding?,...seems to me that if more 'suckers'(pardon the expression) are supplying this faux paus with income then they have the ability to expand to reap the benefits from additional casualties.

Even tho this thread is quite large is doesn't seem to do the weak ,. justice.. ...

Peace..

Auraura

09-14-2004, 12:00 PM

It's easy for anyone with the means (namely PA) to change the author name, book title and publish date; print the material and sell it to stores through another company. It's astonishingly easy. A few words here and there removed, maybe even an entire excerpt and voile...

And the works could be on shelves for literally years without anyone being the wiser. Especially if you're an author just starting out and your work is not known by the masses.

So they take the submissions and send out contracts, give the aspiring authors the warm-fuzzies and happiness they have so been craving for years (I'm finally published!). Take advantage of the ignorance of many just entering the industry, and when the fit hits the shan (*smile*) drop em like a bad habit because they 'stepped out of line'.

I say work to get a class-action lawsuit filed against this company for misrepresentation, and if you can, breach of contract. Find an attorney (or attornies) who know copyright law like the back of their hand and hope they work for free or for a percentage of the win.

Enough people need to stand up, speak up and NEVER shut up. Once you stop doing any or all of these things you've lost.

Just my two cents

SRHowen

09-14-2004, 05:15 PM

I want to add something here--

You may be doing yourself a huge disservice by only focusing on those agents who are the same race you are or who rep the same race. (big names) Those agents rep those big names not because of race but because of who they are.

James gave you a good list, but try outside it. Forget race when looking for representation and see what happens.

I started out the same way--hey I have a better chance of getting published or represented if i find an American Indian agent or publisher, and there are several small press publishers and small time agents who are ndn. While I got some very nice rejection letters, they were still rejections. Many were not taking on new clients, or wanted very specific stories--

Ultimately I did find an agent, a very "white" man in NYC. (though at the time he did have an ndn client)

My point is to expand your horizons and see what happens.

Shawn

James D Macdonald

09-14-2004, 05:55 PM

It's easy for anyone with the means (namely PA) to change the author name, book title and publish date; print the material and sell it to stores through another company.

No, I'm sorry, but I don't agree. If PA could sell books in stores they wouldn't have the reputation that they do. Selling books to the public is hard. Selling books to their own authors is easy.

The only way they could get away with a scheme like that would be if no one ever bought or read their altered books ...

Kate Nepveu

09-14-2004, 08:33 PM

Whether they were accepting unsolicited submissions or not, I still contacted them. . . . Apparently, I assumed too much--because I never received a reply.

I hate to say it, but if they said they weren't accepting unsolicited submissions, your submission almost certainly went directly in the trash, so it's not surprising that you didn't hear from them. Have you considered sending query letters to the places that weren't accepting unsolicited submissions, to try and get them to solicit your manuscript?

James D Macdonald

09-14-2004, 08:54 PM

Kate's right.

All that "no unsolicited" means is "send us a query letter first."

When I say "follow the publisher's guidelines to the letter" I mean it.

GigiSahi

09-14-2004, 08:55 PM

This is interesting. How does PA stay afloat? They have no bestselling authors because no one will stock a PA book. Most of their sales are generated by authors purchasing their own books or a few friends and family members buying them. But, let's look at that....

I come from a large family but even if every member of my family (that I'm aware of) were to buy a dozen copies of my book that would generate less than 2,000 sales. If all my friends were to follow suit that would generate less than 1,000 sales. Combined less than 3,000 books sold. Clearly, no one is going to buy 12 copies of the same novel--no matter how much they love and support their friends or relatives. Perhaps a handful (and that's being extremely generous) of PA's authors have the means to purchase hundreds of copies of their own novel with the prayer of somehow selling them.

PA's gimmick is not charging their authors to have their books published then charging astronomical prices for the books. But, they have no guarantee that their authors or authors' friends and family will buy the books--although human nature and vanity dictates otherwise. Still, mathematically that wouldn't be enough to generate the necessary revenue to keep a business going. This leads us back to the original question--How does PA stay afloat? That definitely bears looking into.

~Gigi

James D Macdonald

09-14-2004, 09:39 PM

But, they have no guarantee that their authors or authors' friends and family will buy the books--although human nature and vanity dictates otherwise.

They know that, on average, every book will sell 75 copies. The ones who sell fewer will be made up for by the ones who sell more. They don't need to force authors to buy copies of their own books. They know that authors will do it, if there's no other way to get their books out to the public.

They do a dead-cheap job of production. No editing, quick-n-dirty Photoshop covers, pouring text into a template rather than designing the interiors. They don't do any promotion or marketing. They don't have a salesforce. They don't publish a catalog. They don't pay for copyright. They only offer a one-dollar advance. They don't take returns. They offer lousy royalties. They give short discounts. These books are done on the cheap.

We know that companies that do have a sales force, do publish a catalog, do take returns, do pay advances, do pay standard royalties and offer standard discounts, pay for shipping, and all the rest of those professional-publisher things -- yet use the exact same digital printing technology (through the exact same printing company) -- sell their books for five dollars a copy less than PA, and still make a profit.

The high cover price (and the minimal spending on production) is the key. For those average 75 sales, PA collects a $375 vanity press fee, on top of the profits that they'd normally make if they were a real publisher.

What Lightning Source International charges them is 0.013 cents per page, plus ninety cents for the cover. A 200 page book costs them $3.50 to print, they sell it to the author at a 30% discount ($13.97), and they charge for shipping.

On those 75 copies they pull in $784.88 after cost of printing is deducted, plus $40 for shipping, minus whatever shipping really costs them. Can they do whatever "editing" they do and make a cover for less than that? You betcha.

It's a recipe for making money.

vstrauss

09-14-2004, 10:09 PM

They stay afloat because in addition to doing everything on the cheap and overpricing their books, they reverse the normal publishing procedure. Instead of selling thousands of books from a few dozen authors, they sell a few dozen books from thousands of authors.

- Victoria

James D Macdonald

09-14-2004, 10:26 PM

Auraura

09-14-2004, 11:05 PM

Okay so BN wont buy books from PA (I know that, I read that) but maybe they will through the distribution company that in some paper trail PA actually owns. Being a person who deals with business people nearly every day I can honestly tell you that deep investigation as to which company is run by whom is not high on the priority lists of big companies. It's considered inefficient. Lol

I'm thinking the only way PA could make a profit is by using an alias in this way, filtering the altered works so that they do make it on the shelves but the true authors never see a dime and never know it is happening until it's too late. After all, paying authors a percentage of sales is less money going into the pockets of the people who work for PA. So perhaps you misunderstood my post or I didn't express myself as eloquently as I should have.

But then again I'm a pessimist after reading endless threads about the sham that is Publish America and have seen someone near and dear to me burned by this company. She's been working for years (like most of you have) to get published. She's good at what she does and deserves the recognition like I'm sure most of you do. But now it's back to square one, in addition trying to keep her work from becoming the victim of plaguerizers (hope I spelled that right LOL).

Auraura
(Concerned sister of a PA victim)

SRHowen

09-15-2004, 12:52 AM

I think James was addressing Gigi in his post.

Answer: Well, you may not want think about it--but every PA book I have seen needed serious editing. I am not saying they were "bad" "awful" horrible" books. They needed a heavy handed red pencil wielding editor. They needed a crit group, a beta reader, or maybe even to be put in a closet and count toward an author's million words of crapola.

In other words I doubt they would make money off putting someone else's name on them and putting them on book store shelves.

OH MY GOSH SOMEONE IS GOING TO STEAL MY WORK is a common cry of new authors. Why would someone in the first place? (New authors simply don't sell well enough from an unknown publisher) And if it were as easy as you say, then why not do it with King, Rice, or our own James D.?

James D Macdonald

09-15-2004, 12:53 AM

Nah, don't think so. PA isn't in the business of selling books to the public. Their vanity model gives them all the cash they need, from the authors' pockets.

Suppose they were stealing books, retitling them, and putting some other author's name on 'em. The only way that scam could work is if the book never sold, since the more copies it sold the better the odds that one or another author would find a copy of their own book. Authors know their books. Changing a few names wouldn't stop them from figuring it out. The first time one was noticed, the gaff would be blown for real.

Selling books to the public is too much work. They'd have to hire an editorial staff, a marketing department, a sales force, do publicity ... no, I don't see it happening. They've got a comfortable little con game running. They don't need to complicate it with work.

James D Macdonald

09-15-2004, 01:07 AM

I recall that Dee Power was recruited by PA. Here's another writer who was recruited:

<a href="http://www.writers.net/forum/read/6/8450/8450" target="_new">www.writers.net/forum/read/6/8450/8450</a>

See Dolores Dawes post of 09-14-04 10:03

It isn't just that PA is lying in wait beside the trail hoping for unwary writers to come by. They're out hunting.

priceless1

09-15-2004, 03:31 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>When I say "follow the publisher's guidelines to the letter" I mean it.<hr></blockquote>
(sigh) Thank you, Uncle Jim. Nothing is more trying than receiving a submission where the author has obviously not followed the guidelines. We have those guidelines for a reason and it can get very tedious to wade through a submission only to find that it doesn't meet our needs.

Authors may think we're just a cranky lot, but that's not it at all. We simply don't want to waste our time and that of the author's. As an example, we have certain genres that we very pointedly do not accept, yet I still recieve them. I could just deep six it, but I don't. I feel if the author took the time to submit they deserve a reply. But it does take time out of my day to email them to refer them to our website so they may see that their particular writing doesn't fit into our lineup.

We have plenty authors email us for submissions guidelines and I'm all too happy to oblige them with the information. Anyway, thanks, James, my eyes thank you.

XThe NavigatorX

09-15-2004, 04:48 AM

Hey Lynn

I'm sending you my collection of young adult horror short stories. Look for it soon.

Risseybug

09-15-2004, 05:04 AM

I'm sending you my collection of young adult horror short stories. Look for it soon.

:rofl :ha

DaveKuzminski

09-15-2004, 06:40 AM

Hey Lynn, when he showed them to me, the purple crayon printing didn't hurt my eyes at all. Well, maybe only one eye. Uh, not the one I have left. ;)

priceless1

09-15-2004, 06:57 AM

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>I'm sending you my collection of young adult horror short stories. Look for it soon.<hr></blockquote>
LOLOL. You goof. <img border=0 src="http://www.ezboard.com/image/posticons/pi_freak.gif" />

Dave, don't make me come after you, big guy.

GigiSahi

09-15-2004, 08:29 AM

This is another blow to PA authors. All new authors who ignorantly published with them, like myself, have to put up with the presumption that our writing is mediocre--on top of everything else! The presumption is, by those who were in the know before we were and managed to avoid PA, that we can't cut it as writers and if we really had any talent a reputable publisher would have snatched up our mss.

I had my ms professionally edited prior to submitting it anywhere. I belong to a few on-line writers groups with new and relatively established writers. There exists a unanimous agreement that no writer worth his quill and ink would submit a ms without first having it edited. Still, the presumption persists that if we were foolish enough to sign on with PA then we were foolish enough not to abide by that rule.

I have a question. I was wondering if I were to download this thread and present it to an attorney, would that get me out of my PA contract? I don't know much about contract law but, I do know that all parties involved must uphold their end of the contract. Obviously, PA has duped its authors. They've made multiple false claims which gave their authors a great deal of false hope. Unfortunately, that doesn't become apparent until after the books are published. Even if we wrote stories that are as good or better than what the major houses are publishing, we wear the disgrace of being PA authors. NO FAIR!

Any feedback would be most appreciated.

~ Gigi