Archive of the NEPAT

[Dodgem James]

Hey Jim,

I suppose you thought the high cover price was a curve ball but I'd say that was a strike. The curve ball would be the "standard discounts" that exist only at PA and not at the distributors.

As for things, they are going great. I'll have some good news for you in (hopefully) less than a week.
Still up for buying 10 copies of my books should you find them on a shelf of your local randomly picked store?
Or was that only if PA was my final stop at publishing success?

Dodgem James

[FM St George]

instead of starting this crap again, why don't you just tell us what you've been up to...

*shakes head*

or not.

[FM St George]

www.publishamerica.com/cg.../10576.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/main/10576.htm)


HARRYANGUS



8/11/2004
10:48:39
Subject: PR Web Article


Message:
Hi All,
I found the following article on PR Web. I don't know if anybody has posted this article here, but I would like to know what other PA authors have actually done to circumvent the problems that we face trying to market our books. I am looking for pragmatic answers is there is any.
Thanks

Harry Angus
harryangus@hotmail.com



The price new authors must pay to be published!
PublishAmerica authors paying the ultimate price for pursuing their dreams.

(PRWEB) August 11, 2004 -- PublishAmerica Inc. is a publisher that seems to be a double-blade sword for those authors that seek out its services. The company provides an opportunity for aspiring authors publication for their works. The fulfillment of those dreams is the treasure at the end of a rainbow for some. But converting that dream into reality comes at a price that some should never have to pay.

As with most dreams, there are different levels in which to categorize them. Some of those aspiring authors are nothing short of happy to have their book published and physically in their hands. Their dreams have been converted into reality and they can ask nothing more to make their world perfect. In short, they have become a published author of their manuscript and their career as a writer has come full-circle. They do not aspire to publish any more books and are proud to be the talk of family and friends in their own world.

Others pursue the road of marketing their book, only to become discouraged by the constant door being closed on them when they mention that PublishAmerica is their publisher. This treatment comes from the fact that PublishAmerica books are priced above market value and are printed on a non-returnable basis. That breaks down to mean that once a bookstore has placed an order, the only way to assure recuperation of the money invested is to have a demand that will meet the supply. The books cannot be returned to PublishAmerica for refund and many bookstores do not feel that it is worth the risk to invest in such conditions. Because of this policy, the author becomes frustrated and decides to abandon their dreams after discovering that the burden of marketing is far more discouraging than their dream of being a successful author. These authors give up on future writing endeavors and return to their own reality.

But what about those authors that are struggling to gain recognition in the publishing world? Many authors have found a vicious cycle of the traditional publisher refusing new authors, yet not giving new authors an opportunity to be discovered. Also, many of the mainstream traditional publishers almost insist on an agent to consider reviewing a manuscript. That, in itself, presents another aspect of the publishing world that can create further discouragement from promising authors. The result, more talent is left by the wayside to never pursue their dreams.

Enter PublishAmerica, Inc. Here is a publisher that lays claim to being a traditional advance and royalty paying book publisher that promises to launch authors in the best tradition of old-fashion quality publishing. Unlike vanity publishers that charge a fee for publishing, or self-publishing, which creates a sense of control for authors but also is accompanied by the burden of placing the book in bookstores and on such Internet stores like Amazon and Barnes & Noble, PublishAmerica Inc. does not ask for any fees from the author. The bases of this politics is that the founders in 1999 had decided that a well-written book should be worthy of publication if the author can convince a publishing company that an actual market exist to sell the book. Based on that and the talent that a new author may promise to hold, they move forward and publish the author’s book within a year of a signed contract.

Given this opportunity to have the first stepping-stone in a promising writing career, it is no wonder that they have laid claim to over 8,000 authors in their fold. However, having a book published by PublishAmerica seems to carry more burden than weight for the serious writer seeking to form a fan base in which to build on. There exist an ever increasing number of ex-PublishAmerica authors that have embarked on a mission to destroy the publisher’s reputation and all that is associated with them because of differences of opinions on what is considered a “traditional publisher”, “marketing services”, “editing services” and “royalties issues”. Rather than leave their differences in the hands of legal experts, they deem it their calling in life to warn everyone to stay away from the publisher at all cost.

While each has the given right to determine if their complaints hold any legal weight, some have taken it amongst themselves to publicly destroy the company through a smear campaign. Such tactics include posting multiple negative reviews on retailers’ boards such as Amazon for any successfully selling PublishAmerica book, send less than flattering information to PublishAmerica authors about the company and other measures that they feel will accomplish their mission. Unfortunately, the company seems unscathed by such tactics and the individuals that bear the burden of this negative publicity are the very authors that have placed their faith and dreams in the hands of the publisher. Concern authors that attempt to contact the company have communications with the publisher go unanswered. This lack of communication with the authors only enhances the claims of some and weakens the foundation of trust that the author has placed with the publisher.

In the end, the very authors that have sought the services of PublishAmerica to commence what could be a promising writing career, have found that the very mention of having a book published by the publisher has become a cross they must bear as they continue to traverse from small publisher into the mainstream publishing world. Sadly, those ex-PublishAmerica authors that have instigated their negative campaign against the publisher have ended up damaging the dreams of their fellow authors more than impairing the future of the publisher. When all is said and done, the dream of becoming an author has converted into a nightmare for more than one author. I know from experience.

I am an author that has written this article out of experience. However, unlike most, I refuse to be denied my future in writing because of the behavior of some. My career is budding and I owe that, in part, to my fan base being established with my association with PublishAmerica. If an author is able to weather the storm, there is a rainbow waiting for them.

Frederick A. Babb
www.frederickbabb.com

[Dodgem James]

"instead of starting this crap again, why don't you just tell us what you've been up to..."

Well, gee, when you make me feel so welcome...

Jim, I'll email you privately when I have all the details worked out.

DJ

[BeckEaston]

There exist an ever increasing number of ex-PublishAmerica authors that have embarked on a mission to destroy the publisher’s reputation and all that is associated with them because of differences of opinions on what is considered a “traditional publisher”, “marketing services”, “editing services” and “royalties issues”. Rather than leave their differences in the hands of legal experts, they deem it their calling in life to warn everyone to stay away from the publisher at all cost.

Marketing, Editing and Royalties is not opinion. These are specific performance promises made by Publish America who is advertising statements they know is an outright lie. This element may be a major hurdle to prove because dishonest people are very skillful and ingenious at disguising their statements, knowing the "fine line" to avoid legal trouble or face any scrutiny.

No one cares whether or not PA is a "traditional publisher." That has never really been the issue. These authors are not simply "disgruntled" or "upset" as most people tend to label ex-PA authors, and calling them that is tantamount to implying that there is no basis in fact for PA's wrong doing.

The:head

[bgsherri]

i just got an email from PA telling me they have 'accepted' my proposal and can i have the manuscript to them in two weeks?

That was my first clue that the road may not be golden.

My (former) agent sent me to them because she was unable to place my book in the hands of a publisher. While the feedback was not 'negative' editors felt there is no market for it. Actually, there is, and one publisher said a similar book is coming out in the fall, which was her reason for refusing it.

I'm new, the book is non-fiction, and while I'm no expert, something tells me to stay away from PA.

While clearly, there are some happy campers out there, I'm overwhelmed at the number of negative posts...and that long letter that basically sings the praises of PA is a bit suspect to me...

so, if 80% of submissions are rejected, should I feel honored?

And isn't that the normal rejection rate of a publisher?

I really don't know.....

[BeckEaston]

All I can say is hang in there. It isn't so bad. Maybe get help on your synopsis or your cover letter. That might help you land more opportunity. Remember, editors are just people. If you feel you have a "nitch" market then advertise to that. Tell the new publisher your marketing ideas. Select your group to market to and go with that. Let the manuscript sell on it's own merits. In the end, you'll feel a whole lot better about sticking to your principals.

[aka eraser]

Sherri if your (ex) agent steered you to PA she was the wrong agent.

You have a lot more avenues to exhaust before considering signing with PA (although niche-targeted NF is, along with poetry, one of the only semi-valid reasons for going their route, *if* you have the means to deliver a considerable number of those books into the readers' hands via lectures, workshops etc.)

There are many reputable small, medium and even a couple of large houses which will consider non-agented nonfiction manuscripts. Write a killer query and proposal and start approaching them.

If your goal is getting your book into bookstores without whining, begging and supplying them at your own expense then PA is not for you.

[bgsherri]

Thanks for the support and advice...I've been at this on and off for two years...but I haven't approached the smaller houses myself. I was told I needed an agent. And you are right, she may not have been the right one for me. Hard to say. She was kind enough not to charge me for all the copying she did when she sent out my proposal, and I appreciated that, given my financial situation...and I know I'm in good company!

Guess I need to start over! Deep breaths, right?

Thanks again!!

[Sher2]

<No one cares whether or not PA is a "traditional publisher." That has never really been the issue. These authors are not simply "disgruntled" or "upset" as most people tend to label ex-PA authors, and calling them that is tantamount to implying that there is no basis in fact for PA's wrong doing.>

I concur. The article, poorly written as it is, will only serve to further inflame the PA zealots. Even if PA or ex-PA authors are "disgruntled", they don't get that way for no reason. Where there's smoke, there's fire.

[Sher2]

<Guess I need to start over! Deep breaths, right?>


Breath DEEEPPPLY, Sherri, and run as fast and as far from PA as you can. There are lots of publishing houses that will work with unagented authors. In my opinion, any agent who can't see PA for what it is isn't much of an agent.

Oh, and about that 80% rejection rate? I'd be VERY surprised if that number was accurate. If I had to guess, I'd say it was more in the vicinity of 80% acceptance to 20% rejection.

[Roxie the Doxie]

I think this poster from the mb has finally hit the nail on the head as to why people dislike PA....NOT.




enny Evans

8/11/2004
12:11:21

&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp RE: PR Web Article


Message:
I can;t believe what I just read. Even though I'm new to PA I find them to be helpful and fair in all levels. Possibly the reason that those authors that are smearing PA is because: (a) they did not make an honest effort to market their own books, or (b)they did not know what they were doing. It certainaly can't be because their book(s) weren't good because in that case PA never would have published them in the first place.

PHEW!
Jenny Evans

[HConn]

I haven't approached the smaller houses myself. I was told I needed an agent.

Look up each small press on the web. Almost all have a web site with their submission guidelines. I think you'll be surprised by how many do not require an agent.

Did you get a list of publishers from your ex-agent? The agent should send you a log of where they have already sent your material.

And you are right, she may not have been the right one for me.

She recommended PA? I have no doubt.

[Savannah Blue]

I'm new, the book is non-fiction, and while I'm no expert, something tells me to stay away from PA.


Whatever that something is, please listen to it. Like Sher2 said, run as fast and far as you can. I've heard it said that there's nothing worse than not being published. Being published badly is ever so much worse. Your work, which you love and believe in with all your heart, will be open to public scorn. It may be from simply not knowing enough, as was my case, to having to listen to how poorly PublishAmerica is viewed in the literary world. Scorn is scorn, no matter which direction it comes from.

Run, child, run!

Savannah Blue

[XThe NavigatorX]

so, if 80% of submissions are rejected, should I feel honored?

And isn't that the normal rejection rate of a publisher?



I don't know what the specific average is, but I'm pretty sure it's way less than 1% for reputable publishers of any size. The good news is 80% of the submissions are written in crayon, utterly illiterate, etc.

[BeckEaston]

I can’t believe what I just read. Even though I'm new to PA I find them to be helpful and fair in all levels. Possibly the reason that those authors that are smearing PA is because: (a) they did not make an honest effort to market their own books, or (b) they did not know what they were doing. It certainly can't be because their book(s) weren't good because in that case PA never would have published them in the first place.
No Dave, don't. Please let me on this one?

I received an email from Publish America suggesting that I go and purchase three books. 1. Guerilla Marketing, 2. Publicize Your Book and 3. An Author's Guide to Promotion from Publish America. The email further suggested that I follow those instructions to the letter and I would be successful. So, I contacted a publicity firm, I employed an hourly staff to sign, seal and deliver thousands of letters to every media source in the nation and UK. I researched every single bookseller within a 5 state radius of where I live. I followed up with several phone calls. I sent out press releases. I contacted every single bookseller online because Publish America didn't do that for me. I even drove and sought these professionals in person. I went above and beyond the call of what is expected of an author, and followed up afterwards, because I am a professional businesswoman and sales are what I am great at.

Now, you say I 'didn't market correctly?" What part of what I did was not correct? Every single time one of my people or myself contacted a bookseller, reviewer, industry professional or media professional we were told that the company contacted wants nothing whatsoever to do with any author from Publish America. Period.

they did not know what they were doing.
Let's see, I have experience in taking a multitude of companies from merely hundred thousands of profits, through business development, into millions. What are your credentials in this area. Oh, and by the way, my publicity firm, just won a national award.

If you're new, I would suggest that you read a little bit more than what you think you know. These claims on these boards are consistent and factual.

PA is very good at suggesting that we're all "disgruntled" authors who couldn't sell our product. In fact, they make their living on it. If you don't believe me, bring up one of these posts and see how fast you get banned or get slammed for even looking here. PA wants you ignorant, faithful and full of naive hope.

[Roxie the Doxie]

That post came directly from the PA message board, not these boards. Sorry if there was any confusion as to its origins.

[BeckEaston]

That is if they seriously want that answer. Sorry Roxie, it's just that I used to think the same way. May have been a little forward? Ya think?

Oops!

[DaveKuzminski]

Well said, Rebecca. If you would, please forward me a copy of that PA email. It would make excellent documentation of their activities. Also, if you forward it, that preserves the headers which can be used to prove where it originated.

For everyone's information, the Case Watchers site is back online. They've removed that one slur used as a topic title and created new topics. I read through and one states that they're not going to mention PA without using a code so it won't be found by us. Right, as if we're trying to shut them down. If Marti was to tell the truth, she and her book would both be free of PA soon enough. Then she could market it through some reputable publisher where it might actually make some sales.

What amazes me is that Marti couldn't recognize the opportunities that were facing her in the past few days. She had two well-known editors with New York publishing companies, a vice president from Lightning Source, and some professional authors who could have given her expert advice and established some additional contacts for her within the publishing industry. Those contacts could have helped her immensely in reaching her goals to help missing people and their families. Instead, she called them bobbleheads for making statements in support of my integrity. I hope someone with her email address will advise her of what she missed since I don't want to give PA a reason to force her to shut down that site again.

[Sher2]

<She had two well-known editors with New York publishing companies, a vice president from Lightning Source, and some professional authors who could have given her expert advice and established some additional contacts for her within the publishing industry. Those contacts could have helped her immensely in reaching her goals to help missing people and their families. Instead, she called them bobbleheads for making statements in support of my integrity. I hope someone with her email address will advise her of what she missed since I don't want to give PA a reason to force her to shut down that site again. >


Why she behaved in such a churlish, unprofessional manner is beyond me. And now they've gone to "codes." What next? Secret handshakes? Magic decoder rings? How childish.

Speaking of Lightning Source, did you all know there's a Lightning Source in the UK printing PA books? I had no idea 'til I saw mention of it today.

[DaveKuzminski]

Yes, this remark of hers, "Okay, we'll start over. But Dave and his bobbleheads will be deleted. No more talk about our publisher, k??? If we don't call them by their name, the search engines won't pick it up and the rats won't find us. We need a nick name, then we can talk without interruption. Probably not, but ..." makes it so tempting to post "Boo!" just once except for the fact that I think the rats she's referring to happens to be her publisher and its goons.

[Molly Brent]

In the past week I have been told that I am dumb, a bubble head, a Dave follower and I do not have a life.
I was told I did not read the contract. I did not investigate. I’m tired of being told what I did and how I feel.

First, I don’t even know Dave very well. I contacted him several times and asked for his help. I admire him and respect him as an honest person and only regret is that I did not know him sooner.

As for being dumb and a bubble head, I do not have a college degree but I did go 3 years. I do have a very high IQ and once scored the highest score ever made on a national test. I have also been told that my career is over.
Well, writing is my hobby, not my career. I do not know much about this profession and from what I do know from my past experience, I don’t want any part of it. My wonderful book is down the toilet and I have accepted that. All my reviews were legit and many from highly respected authors and reviewers. All 5 star.

I did have another publisher. I just didn’t know one from the other. I had already signed with PA when I heard back from the other. PA accepted my book within days. I read the contract. I asked all the right questions.
I contacted the BBB and the attorney general. I was promised in writing and in the contract, a professional editor

In five months, I received my proofs. Even the name of the book and the author’s name were wrong.
When I almost had a nervous breakdown, I was reassured by my so called editor that “they all was professionals”

Here is a sample of her corrections. Hardly anyone used the old highway. Hers…..Hardly, anyone used the old highway. Then I was told I didn’t know how to use commas, but her words again “don’t worry, we all needs help sometimes.”

They refused to let my hired editor do it over. She sent in 98 pages of corrections their editor made. They refused to make them and wanted to print the book with the mistakes. Finally they let the editor I hired just write it over.

It went to the printer on Sept 1 and for sale on their site on Sept 16, I ordered 251 books as soon as possible to have them for a big signing in the casino on the 24th of Oct. It was a special party by invitation…….The books didn’t come. They forgot to send them. I did receive them the next week. That’s when I discovered that they had sent the wrong set of proofs to the printers.

It took weeks for me to get the online book stores to get my info and picture right. Then what happened?
PA assigned the same ISBN to another book and my info was on another title. If you tried to order my book you got the wrong book.

I hired a PR firm, I took out ads and had several thousand letters sent to independent book stores. I had been told by PA that their biggest buyers were the chain stores but I learned fast that they would not allow a PA book in their stores. In a matter of weeks I was number 22 on PA’s best seller list. My royalty check was $35.

I moved up on the best seller list and last week. I was told when tried to order 20 books as a test “no problem” but they would have to order them from the publisher. I called Ingram and was told they had sold 30 books. Now, I don’t even have a contract with PA……..it was returned to me in May. My book is still being sold illegally.

Molly Brent

[Sher2]

<It took weeks for me to get the online book stores to get my info and picture right. Then what happened?
PA assigned the same ISBN to another book and my info was on another title. If you tried to order my book you got the wrong book.

I hired a PR firm, I took out ads and had several thousand letters sent to independent book stores. I had been told by PA that their biggest buyers were the chain stores but I learned fast that they would not allow a PA book in their stores. In a matter of weeks I was number 22 on PA’s best seller list. My royalty check was $35.

I moved up on the best seller list and last week. I was told when tried to order 20 books as a test “no problem” but they would have to order them from the publisher. I called Ingram and was told they had sold 30 books. Now, I don’t even have a contract with PA……..it was returned to me in May. My book is still being sold illegally.>


What a horror story, Molly. I hope you have a lawyer. If you can't afford one, I saw a link somewhere the other day for free legal advice to writers and other artists. Also, there's not a doubt in my mind that there will be a class action sooner rather than later. Good luck to you!

[DaveKuzminski]

Molly, here's the link to those lawyers you should contact. I can't guarantee that they can help you, but at least they won't charge you to find out what they can do.

Volunteer Lawyers for the Arts (http://www.starvingartistslaw.com/help/volunteer%20lawyers.htm)

I do hope they can help you.

[Molly Brent]

Two months ago I had a stroke. Docs say the major cause was stress from all this ......I had to have 3 surgeries to restore my hearing. My left eye is still closed and I am in a wheelchair if I take over a few steps.

Money is not a problem. I play poker with a very good attorney every week and there are two on my block. Stress is the problem I would like to get my book off the online book stores and forget it.

I posted the above for two reasons. I wanted to give the ones considering using PA some facts and I wanted the PA rah rah club to get their facts right.

Molly

[bgsherri]

Again, thanks everyone for your comments and suggestions...I will start over...and eventually, hopefully, prevail.

HConn, thanks for your adivce...my agent actually sent me all the rejection letters, so yes, she kept me apprised. I know who she sent it to and why it was rejected...

I am so grateful to all of you...and tot Dave for his email...man, what a beehive I almost walked into!!!

I'll be baaaaaaaaaaaaack

[DaveKuzminski]

Molly, whatever you choose is fine by me. The important thing is that you be in charge of what happens to you and your work. In the meantime, get well.

[Ed Williams 3]

Anything new on this widely heralded PA achievement lately....:rofl

[Savannah Blue]

<makes it so tempting to post "Boo!" just once>

:rofl That is so funny

I went to this site this morning and there were no posts listed. I feel so bad for this lady. She's so terribly afraid.

S.B.

[HapiSofi]

Molly, I'm so sorry to hear about what's happened to you. I remember when you were a fervent and hopeful new author on the PA boards.

The profession of writing has its griefs, sure enough; but what you've run into is something much worse. It's not your fault for not spotting this beforehand, but PA is a scam through and through. They're also specialists in handing out emotional abuse to authors who stop being true believers. They'll tell you you're stupid and unrealistic and a drama queen, and that the real problem is that nobody wants to read your book. They say that to everyone. They lie.

It's true that a lot of their authors aren't really ready to be published -- and by the way, there's a serious shortage of substantiation for their claim that they reject 80% of the books submitted to them. But in your case, you had a traditional publisher interested in an idiosyncratic midlist off-category book, which is impressive. Never lose track of that.

PublishAmerica will screw over a good book just as thoughtlessly as they will a bad one.

I know you play poker with an attorney, and that's a truly useful thing, but you want to make sure you consult a lawyer who's familiar with publishing law. It's a very specialized field, and even when it's completely honest it tends to befuddle lawyers from other areas of practice. If your poker buddy doesn't happen to know anyone who works in publishing law, try asking these Lawyers in the Arts guys, or John Savage, who does a weblog about publishing law.

[Arden19]

I *really* wish I'd done my homework on PA before even submitting to them.

I first heard about them because I live in Frederick. I was looking in the paper to help my husband with his job search when I saw that PA was looking for an editor. Of course, I'm now using that term loosely.

It was also about this time that I'd been posting some short stories to a message board, and everyone kept telling me that I was good, that I should be published. So, I collected some and sent them off to PA thinking that I'd found a publisher.

Wow, if I'd just come here first.

Writing for me is a hobby. I have a "day job" that I won't be giving up no matter what. Long before I read all of the posts here, I had decided not to send my next book to PA. I kind of doubt it'll ever see the light of day, and right now I'm so discouraged that I don't want to write anything else.

I never expected to be a huge success or anything. Heck, I can't promote myself, much less have the desire to do so, so I know I won't have book sales. Of course I bought the 50 copies, in fact my mother is still trying to sell the ones I sent her. The sooner they're gone, the better. This is almost something I'd now like to forget. I don't care if I get out of the contract or whatever. (wow, I'm really negative.)

This has all been a learning experience. I'll discourage people from PA. I didn't publish for vanity reasons or anything else. I didn't want to self publish, and if I'd known that's what this was, I'd have run away. Ugh.

[FM St George]

first, I hope and pray that Molly's health keeps on improving - never discount the power of a good attitude in healing yourself and others around you.

second - if nothing else, Molly's experience should illustrate what every PA author has to deal with and has to face in the way of problems and lack of support from PA. I followed her story on the PA boards while she suffered through a lack of editing, misprinting, hiring a publicist, and the final indignity of receiving that royalty check. If I still could post on the PA boards I'd put up her letter as a huge example of how the average author is almost guaranteed to fail because she did EVERYTHING RIGHT according to PA. And she still hit the wall of the stigma.

HB and his ilk can yelp and scream and point fingers about how upset authors didn't do what they were told; that they didn't understand how to market, but Molly's story is a perfect example of someone who did everything she was asked to and still was let down by PA in the end. I dare HB to come here and try and defend PA after the horrible treatment they gave this woman.

I dare him.

HB, you listening? Come here and defend PA's treatment of Molly Brent if you have the balls for it. Or are you too busy mortaging the house again to buy more copies of your own book?

cowards, the lot of them.

grr.

[Sher2]

<Come here and defend PA's treatment of Molly Brent if you have the balls for it. Or are you too busy mortaging the house again to buy more copies of your own book?>


Given sufficient time, PA will turn the lot of them into PAupers.

[Dragon Chow]

I was looking in the paper to help my husband with his job search when I saw that PA was looking for an editor.

What kind of qualifications did they require? Did it say?

I'd love that job (so I can get an inside look.) Too bad I live in the "other" Washington. Commute will kill me.

DC

[Arden19]

I don't remember now, it was over a year ago. What with hindsight being 20/20, I wish I'd copy and pasted it for times like this.

[Savannah Blue]

To Molly Brent:
Not long after we submitted to PA, a friend of mine and I were researching PA. We had heard a few scary stories and were trying to find out if they were true or if it was just a handful of unhappy authors.
It was your story that finally opened my eyes. I can't tell you how sorry I am for all you've been through. I hope that your life, as well as your health, improve daily and you'll get justice for all you've been through.
I just wanted you to know, that while I didn't hear of you soon enough to stop me from signing with the devil, your story has had a bearing on me.
Bless you, Molly. You'll be in my prayers for a long time.
S.B.

[James D Macdonald]

As for things, they are going great. I'll have some good news for you in (hopefully) less than a week.
Still up for buying 10 copies of my books should you find them on a shelf of your local randomly picked store?
Or was that only if PA was my final stop at publishing success?

Hey there, Canada.

The ten-book offer was for your PA book -- but tell you what, if I see a copy of any other book by you in my local bookstores I'll definitely buy one. Let me know the title?

[lindylou45]

and right now I'm so discouraged that I don't want to write anything else.

It makes me sad to hear that from you, but I've heard it from many of the PA authors who have been taken in. It not only makes me sad, it makes me angry that these people can make a person question their capabilities so thoroughly that they give up their dreams.

Writing for me is not hobby, it is something that I've always wanted to do. They made me question my talent, they told me my book wasn't in bookstores because it wasn't good enough to be placed, they told me I am stupid and they told me they expect an apology.

I've gotten over questioning my talent and I will continue to write and submit my work to reputable agents/publishers who I have thoroughly researched and checked out on P&E before I submit. (I, unlike PA, think Dave knows exactly what he's talking about).

I now know that my book isn't in bookstores because PA does not have a return policy. I cannot afford to buy hundreds of copies of my book and place them myself with a guarantee to the bookstore manager that I will buy them back. I am disabled and can't go from bookstore to bookstore and plead with the manager to place my PA book. Regardless of how good my writing is, it will always have the stigma of being poorly written and edited because it was published through PA.

I am only as stupid as the other 7,999 PA authors who fell for PA's scam. PA knew what to say and how to say it, both on their website and in their contract. I did do research before signing with them, unfortunately, I didn't come across this board at that time. Had I done so, I certainly would have run (well, wheeled actually) as far and as fast as I could. It doesn't make me stupid, it makes me gullible.

And as far as PA getting an apology from me - As soon as Hell freezes over and pigs fly I'd be happy to! Until then, I guess they're going to have to muddle on without one.

Molly's story has to be about the worst one I've heard. I hope and pray you are doing better soon, Molly. The fact is that it just proves that PA couldn't give a flying fig for any of their authors. Once the money stops coming in, they will keep the rights just to make life difficult for the author. PA says they are professional - but they don't indicate what they are considered professionals of. I can plainly see that it's not publishing and it sure as hell isn't customer service.

[DeePower]

As some of you may know, we are proceeding with litigation to have the rights to our PublishAmerica book revert back to us. PA will be sent a letter by our law firm within a few days. It will be the last letter and if they still refuse to cooperate, they will be served -- wouldn't it be a hoot to have the process server show up at the PA Hemingway convention and serve Meiners et al right there in front of all the happy authors.

Anyway ............. I was thinking, I know a ton of reporters (including editors of the Business Journals from about 20 cities) from our business consulting days. I can query the editors and reporters and give them a brief description of the PA "situation." I would think it would make a juicy story.

What I need to have available is a list of authors that have had problems with PublishAmerica and are willing to be interviewed and quoted. Perhaps even provide copies of the nasty PA correspondence.

If you're interested send me an email at mailto:authors@BrianHillAndDeePower.com I won't disclose your name to a reporter without your permission. I will tell you who the reporter is and for which paper.

Dee

Dee Power
www.BrianHillandDeePower.com (http://www.BrianHillandDeePower.com)

[aka eraser]

Meiners et al are professional (and sociopathic) con artists. I only hope that Molly and others take heart from the fact that by enduring what they have and telling their stories they're performing a valuable service.

We know of several people who have not signed with PA because of what they've read here and elsewhere. I suspect many times that number have made the same decision and not told us of it.

Courage is one of the necessary attributes of a successful writer and you possess it.

[Sher2]

Speaking of bobbleheads, here's the latest.

"Message:
I think what the bobbleheads want is credit for their handiwork. What we need to do is give credit to someone else. As cleaver as that last reveiw is (on my book), it is possible it is written by a ticked off cop instead of a bobblehead. So I choose to give the credit to the cop, which can't be pleasant for the bobblehead. :o )

Just please don't ask anyone to delete my bad reviews. I intend to get as much milage out of this as I can.

Yours truly, the ever thinking, ever plotting Marti.

What are they so afraid of? See a special message just for you at www.casewatchers.com"


And here's the "special message":

"What are they so afraid of? ..... A nasty campaign has been launched to lower the rating on Marti Talbott's book,"Colorado Cold Case.".... Don't be fooled, a one star review, even disguised as an apology, lowers
the rating. ... Are they cops who don't want you to know
what's in this book? ..... How far will one cop go to protect
another? ....... Click on Read the Reviews"

Hope she's careful with that cleaver.

[Dodgem James]

"The ten-book offer was for your PA book -- but tell you what, if I see a copy of any other book by you in my local bookstores I'll definitely buy one. Let me know the title?"

No worries Jim. I still owe you for the advice, so I'll make sure you get a free copy. I don't really have to worry if friends or family (if I have my way they won't need to) buy a copy or not.

As for the title, I'll let you know. Not sure what the editor will let me keep.

D. James (who really does dodge 'em!)
www.members.shaw.ca/writeguy (http://www.members.shaw.ca/writeguy)

[BeckEaston]

What is the link to Marti's new forum site? Do you have it?

[HapiSofi]

Count me as another reader who'd love to hear anything you can tell me about PA's editors.

[DaveKuzminski]

The old link still worked the last time I used it. There was only a single message there from someone regarding a missing person's case. If Marti has another site, I'm unaware of it. Hopefully, PA will leave her alone.

[DeePower]

There is an article at fiction forum which includes the qualifications of Miranda Prather, executive director, Jaime Long, Editor, Sarah Becker, Senior Editor, Walter Chalky, Editor, (but I don't think he's with PA anymore) and Marie Raeders, Acquisition Editor.

www.fictionforum.net/writ...ew-pa.html (http://www.fictionforum.net/writers/toolbox/interview-pa.html)

Dee
BrianHillAndDeePower.com (http://BrianHillAndDeePower.com)

[BeckEaston]

Did not work. Can you cut and paste again?

[Nameless65]

Ironic - the PA interview is on the same page as the Truly Useful Site Award from Preditors and Editors.

[James D Macdonald]

If the Amazon Slammer is reading this, I have a message for you.

Knock it off.

First of all, the PublishAmerica authors aren't the bad guys. They're the victims. Their books may even be good ... but if you haven't read them (and based on the slams you've posted as "reviews" on Amazon, you haven't), you wouldn't know.

Second, the slams play right into Meiners' hands. If the PA authors' books sink without a trace (as they will, all on their own, due to the high prices, non-standard discounts, and non-returnability, combined with PA's inability to fill orders and general incompetence), the authors will (correctly) blame PA -- unless you give them an alternative explanation: "My book would have been a best seller if only the Amazon Slammer (a disgruntled former-PA author/Dave Kuzminski/a bobblehead) hadn't sabotaged me! Curses! PublishAmerica is the greatest publisher in the world because they gave me a chance, but the Slammer took my chance away!"

This slamming borders on insanity.

Wait a minute ... maybe Meiners is the slammer. Maybe he's attempting to distract the authors from the very real problems that his business model has with this false trail.

Be that as it may -- the slamming detracts from the truth about PA. It's stupid, it's counterproductive, it's wrong.

Cut it out.

[vstrauss]

>>maybe Meiners is the slammer.<<

That was my theory a while back.

- Victoria

[James D Macdonald]

I do not know much about this profession and from what I do know from my past experience, I don’t want any part of it.

...right now I'm so discouraged that I don't want to write anything else.

Guys, this is part of why I'm so down on PublishAmerica. Authors are fragile, especially new authors. How many wonderful writers have we lost, their voices silenced, because their first experience was with PublishAmerica, and it crushed them. Hapi's mentioned the deliberate emotional abuse that PA heaps on its writers. You can all see it for yourselves.

Maybe the current book that these writers sent to PA wasn't very good. The way things ought to work, the author would send a first manuscript around, get rejected a bunch of times, then write a new, better book. Now -- that writer is told "Yes, you're good enough" (derailing the learning process), then sent out on endless promotional schemes (stealing from the time that they should spend honing their craft), then cynically crushed by a professional bully, knocking them away from real traditional publication.

PublishAmerica offends me on a moral level.

--------------

Molly -- you mentioned another publisher that had been interested in your book. You have the rights back now. Have you written to that other publisher to see if they're still interested?

In a lot of very important ways your book is still unpublished.

The way I see it, you can still get back on track.

[DaveKuzminski]

I have noticed that books that appear to be taking off toward having sales because their authors were investing time and effort or had a viable outlet are typically the ones that get slammed. It's as if someone with a very good reason didn't want the books to sell.

That in itself is a reason to speculate that someone on the PA staff might be sabotaging the sales of those books to prevent PA from having to provide adequate upfront support. They don't mind receiving orders paid in advance, but they can't afford having a book take them into "paid after sale" territory since that would set a precedent for other authors who would then want their books given equal treatment and an equal chance of success. After all, PA claims that they treat all their authors the same. Except for Willem, HB, and Jamie, they pretty much do.

[priceless1]

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Molly -- you mentioned another publisher that had been interested in your book. You have the rights back now. Have you written to that other publisher to see if they're still interested?<hr></blockquote>
I loved her book and wish I could offer her an anywhere, anytime contract should she ever be victorious in her efforts. Unfortunately, legalities prevent me from doing so. Molly's book is an example of a first time writer putting forth a wonderful book that, with a little developmental editing, would be a great book.

It's one of those great Southern books that I really enjoyed.

[Molly Brent]

James, I've always enjoyed your posts. Below is the only rejection I've ever received but I'm sure that's because
I've only sent it to two or three.

Most of ya'll will know Deb, she just signed a 1.2 million contract and is very famous. I know this is a rejection but the rejection actually made me feel good.

Molly --

Thanks so much for sending me a copy of your novel. It's beautifully written -- some of the best writing I've seen in a long, long time. Unfortunately, it's not quite right, editorially, for Bellebooks. However, I encourage you to contact some good agents who handle regional fiction, and send them the book. It definitely has potential. You might also want to contact Hill Street Press, in Athens, Ga. A lovely, reputable regional publisher who may be interested in your work. I wish you the very best of luck placing this intriguing novel.

Deb Smith
BelleBooks

Lynn, I ddn't mean you. My book was already published when I met you on the PA board.

I did want to thank everybody for your concern and prayers for my health. Keep em coming, please. They are working. Spent all day today going from one doc to the other .........things are better than last week


Molly

[James D Macdonald]

Thanks, Molly. I try to be helpful.

My best advice to you would be to aim high. What's your dream publisher? Get their guidelines and follow those guidelines to the letter.

Your writing stands on its own. If your story is strong enough your PA history won't matter.

[absolutewrite]

Lynn, that was such a sweet post. :thumbs I visited your site and liked its genuine feel. Looks to me like you're off to a great start.

[Ed Williams 3]

"Subject: Hey PA


Message:
Would you please advise me why you removed the two messages I post this a.m. ???

Neither of them said anything about PA, or bad mouth anyone, etc.

One concerned my second book and the huror concering it.

the second only asked why the message board was now in all CAP lettering ...

WHAT IS WRONG WITH THESE MESSAGES ????"

***Could it be that PA doesn't want to showcase the fact that they will publish just about anything?***

[FM St George]

RE: Independence Books


Message:
Hi Creative Gang,

I am still waiting for PA to respond to my e-mail inquiry
as to the update on Independence Books. I do not know
why but they do not respond to that or other e-mails I
have been sending for weeks now. I have a store
owner who wants to buy a bunch of my books and they
don't even respond to my e-mails about that. He even
tried to reach them with no success. HOW AM I
SUPPOSED TO SELL BOOKS IF MY PUBLISHER WILL
NOT COMMUNICATE!!!!!

I miss Christina in author's support. She was
so professional and AWESOME!

PA used to be so good about communication.
I wonder about how many sales I may have lost in the
past because of this problem.

Not Happy,
Lehua

www.dreameffects.com

***************

reality check, aisle three...

:(

[Sher2]

<***Could it be that PA doesn't want to showcase the fact that they will publish just about anything?***>

Alas, their boards are crawling with that kind of stuff. Maybe they do try to hide the worst examples, though. Who knows? I do suspect that once the "secret" board is up and running, the public ones might just disappear. One less headache for PA. As for Bubba, somebody ought to draw him a map -- his "missing" posts are on different boards, but they're there.

Meanwhile, we have Marti blowing a gasket in another direction:

www.publishamerica.com/cg...e/5423.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/5423.htm)

Does she not realize that she is hurting her own cause and detracting from possible future sales of her book?

And another PAvidian losing it over a guestbook entry:

www.publishamerica.com/cg.../10608.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/main/10608.htm)

This is better than soap opera.

[Sher2]

<reality check, aisle three...>

Reality? That's an unknown quantity "over there." Those who accidentally get hit upside the head with a dose of it turn up other places, like here.;)

[LaVerneRoss]

That is the good thing about this board and others, are the support and good advice and warmth that exist. With a few trolls thrown in of course. Lately I have felt the desire to give up, and quite writing. Thinking unless you are a perfect editor or have money to invest what chance would I have. Lots of whatifs, and maybes coming fast. But with a shoulder from several members, who have become friends, I find I now want to keep going, and find my own rainbow. Having two other books completed, and being edited, and rewriting the one just released, is a start. Just wanted to say thanks to those who give of themselves, and their words of incouragement, wisdom, and good warnings.

[James D Macdonald]

Oh, dear ...

So I try out PA, if it doesn't work out, mostly it will be my fault for being a poor author and salesperson.

No, no, my friend. You could have written a dandy book and be a wonderful salesman, and it wouldn't matter. PA's business model doesn't include "sales to the general public" as part of its plan.

Look a bit upstream for Beck Easton and Molly Brent's experiences. You want to tell me that they didn't write good books? You want to tell me that they didn't promote their books?

It's not your fault, what'll happen to your book. If you come in the door believing that it is your fault, you've already swallowed Meiners' line and he's reeling you in.

By the way, I wonder if the "Mr. Book" who's trolling the PAers' guestbooks is related to the "Mr. Book" who was creating dissention over at Mindsight (http://www.mindsightseries.com/discus/messages/3831/4050.html?1091812403#POST40158) not too long ago?

I do believe that someone is playing mindgames and trying to set two groups who should be mutally supportive (the PA authors who still believe and the PA authors who no longer believe) at each others' throats. I think this "Mr. Book" is trying to keep PA authors from looking outside their own messageboard for information.

[Sher2]

<Lately I have felt the desire to give up, and quite writing. Thinking unless you are a perfect editor or have money to invest what chance would I have. Lots of whatifs, and maybes coming fast. But with a shoulder from several members, who have become friends, I find I now want to keep going, and find my own rainbow. Having two other books completed, and being edited, and rewriting the one just released, is a start.>

LaVerne, DO NOT quit writing. Stick with your plan to rewrite and edit previous works and continue to write new material. I have "dry spells" when life is throwing me one-two punches and I just plain don't feel like writing. Still, I believe I CAN do it, and do it successfully, and I don't think I'll be happy until I see a non-PA book with my name on the cover. Keep going and find your rainbow!

[Sher2]

<By the way, I wonder if the "Mr. Book" who's trolling the PAers' guestbooks is related to the "Mr. Book" who was creating dissention over at Mindsight not too long ago?>


The same thought occurred to me. How likely is it that two different individuals would be presumptuous enough to use the name Mr. Book?

[XThe NavigatorX]

That Independence Books thread is a goner. www.publishamerica.com/cg.../10549.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/main/10549.htm)

"WritingWizard" is walking a pretty fine line for them, too.

[lucyishome]

I was wondering if Mr. Book was the same also. I could not resist replying to that post on the PA board. I also put in my 2 cents about the name calling.

[James D Macdonald]

Well, we don't know anything about the "Mr. Book" who's been hitting the PA authors' guestbooks, but we do know that the "Mr. Book" at Mindsight logged in from adelphia.net's Cleveland node.

[priceless1]

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Lynn, that was such a sweet post. I visited your site and liked its genuine feel. Looks to me like you're off to a great start.
Jenna Glatzer
Ed-in-Chief
Absolute Write<hr></blockquote>
Aw, you made my millenium, Jenna. We're working our tails off here and having the most marvelous time at it. The talent crossing our desks is humbling. Yes, most gets weeded out, but I never fail to get giddy over great work. When Publisher's Weekly told us we were doing everything right and were shocked at how new we were, even going so far as to promise to review some of our titles, we nearly wet our pants.

Your kind words means volumes and I'm touched.

[Sher2]

<That Independence Books thread is a goner. www.publishamerica.com/cg.../10549.htm>


Yep, that's gone, as is the "guestbook slamming" thread. Shoot, there was another brilliant "bobblehead" diatribe, too. Why does PA pull all the good stuff?:ha

[Molly Brent]

"They are called Bobbleheads. They couldn't sell their own PA books, didn't bother to write them well to begin with and now they want all of us to suffer!"


To begin with........maybe I should just say To begin......

For some reason that statement offeneded me. So call me petty but I got the ISBN from the PA book store and called Ingram's info line to see how Colorado Cold Case was selling since her writing is so superior.

on order .......0
back order.....0
total sold..... 9

My ISBN is 1 4137 0098 5 if you'd like to compare...and I'm far from being the best author PA has or had. In fact, the only reason I'm not completely destroyed for being so stupid (for signing with PA) is because so many writers I admire and respect got duped too.

Plus, when you compare, remember that I don't have a contract.

The only difference between us Bobbleheads and the rest of ya'll.....we're smart enough to know we got duped.

I don't know who Mr. Book is but maybe if you'd just delete him without giving him attention , he'd go away.

I ordered 251 books and tried to order 251 more when the first shipment ran out so quickly but they wouldn't give me the same discount so I ordered 51 more. You can't imagine how embarrassing it is to tell people that I don't have books. You can say I'm not a writer and I'll admit to that but you can't say I can't sell.........

Molly

[Ed Williams 3]

....looks like "Mr. Book" has been outed, one of the authors on the Mindsight Series board did a little covert computer work and discovered that it's our good friend, HB. And since HB is out and lurking, I thought it might be interesting to check out his latest Amazon sales rankings. Out of 5627 books:

1. The Joe Schmoe Show - #874
2. Crispy - - #3408

No wonder he prostitutes himself to PA, and it makes me wonder about something - he's already signed a contract for his third PA book, so, with sales like this, why would PA continue to sign him to produce more books? Must be for some reason other than sales....

[James D Macdonald]

...since her writing is so superior.

Maybe it is. Maybe she's the second coming of Ann Rule. The point is, given PA's high prices, poor discounts, and non-returnable books, her book will be very difficult to get into bookstores. The reviews and interviews and all the rest will dry up soon -- a book that came out two years ago is no longer news -- and the lousy contract will get to be a bigger and bigger problem.

[Sher2]

<looks like "Mr. Book" has been outed, one of the authors on the Mindsight Series board did a little covert computer work and discovered that it's our good friend, HB. And since HB is out and lurking, I thought it might be interesting to check out his latest Amazon sales rankings. Out of 5627 books:

1. The Joe Schmoe Show - #874
2. Crispy - - #3408

No wonder he prostitutes himself to PA, and it makes me wonder about something - he's already signed a contract for his third PA book, so, with sales like this, why would PA continue to sign him to produce more books? Must be for some reason other than sales.... >


Interesting! I've heard it posited that he's a PA employee. Maybe they pay him a stipend to be their head cheerleader. It would also be interesting to know whether he's the same Mr. Book who was slamming those PA guestbooks and, if so, what his rationale is for playing both sides of the fence.

[James D Macdonald]

The rationale for the "Mr. Book" who's slamming the PA guestbooks is easy: he's trying to put a bad taste in the PA authors' mouths, so they'll be prejudiced against these boards. Create a bit of us-vs.-them. Keep the PA authors from looking for information out here -- since they've been told that we hate them.

You see how it works?

[DaveKuzminski]

The rationale there would be to keep his position as the head cheerleader. Then he can rally the troops behind him because they were attacked by, ahem, "outsiders". He has everything to gain by doing so.

Those of us outside the PA environ have no need to attack PA authors individually. Nor do most of us have time with our own activities such as operating our web sites, checking on what's taking place, helping new writers, writing new work, doing our submissions, and, for some of us, handling a day job as well. Besides, our argument is with PA over its contracts and treatment of writers.

[ncq13]

On Bad Reviews:
I understand that our first novels are the most personal. I understand that after years of nurturing and editing a bad review hurts, believe me, I'm not looking forward to receiving a mediocre review at any point and time, but- they happen to EVERYONE! Last time I checked, rejection, unfavorable reviews, constructive criticism from peers etc. was all a part of this business. It isn't always easy to accept, but if you don't learn to take it you will never succeed. Surviving is about learning where you can improve and moving on. A few bad Amazon reviews does not make or break a career, some writers even come back from bad books, but what you can't come back from is a bad attitude. Worse yet, if you do not associate outside of your immediate skill level, you are doomed to mediocrity.

I have had the pleasure through my experience with my publisher to meet some fellow authors with great potential in a wonderful warm community type setting- that lasts only about as long as you are willing to avoid discussion on professionalism in the field and the finer points of successful marketing...

(Sigh)

I'm please to hear, Lynn, that you have done something amazing after a difficult experience! The rumor mill is saying wonderful things about Behler Publications.

[aka eraser]

I read Mr. Book's posts on Mindsight and don't think he's HB. Mr. Book is a better writer. His opinions may be "out there" but they're coherent.

[lindylou45]

Marti, I don;t blame you one bit and I satnd behind you alla the way, however I do worry about your safety. Even if they know hwo this guy is, if you are in danger, is it worth iT? That is the wuestion you must ask. If you feel it is right then go with your gut feeling. I have found that it never fail me in any given situation. Best of luck lady, you certainly deserve better than the trask these people are throwing. You book is a winner. I know as it moved my heart and made me angry just to read what should have been done and wasn't. You go gal!

This post is from Robbie! It just amazes me that this woman has a writing class! Would you sign up for her class if you saw a post like this with her name attached to it? Amazing!
:shrug

[James D Macdonald]

Lindy, I've been doing this bulletin board stuff since the early nineties, including places where a lot of pros hang out.

On-line writing on message boards doesn't correlate well with for-publication prose. Several well-known authors are dyslexic; others, you'd swear they were typing with their feet. How well someone spells and how well they tell stories isn't particularly well related.

[ncq13]

Ha! Thank you for saying what you did about poor online typing skills!

I fall into the typing with my feet category- which is why editing is a laborious process for me. Perhaps, I'm just showing my pre-computer generation age, but I actually have to print and mark up a piece in order to properly edit. I find that if I work from the screen alone I miss things and there isn't a chance in hell of me spending valuable time staring at each and every message post I make to be perfectly sure it is error free.

~Kate
katestamour.com (http://katestamour.com)

[Risseybug]

Wow! I am so glad I found this board. I found PA while doing a search for publishers (being a proactive sort, I was steeled after receiving my seventh agent rejection of the month) They seemed like a good deal, something to put in the back of my head for when the traditional paths had petered out. Then I came across a message already referenced on the PA board.. you know the one "I got an eyeful on the Absolute Write boards".

So I type in Absolute write and begin to read. You pointed out the flaw in their "too good to be true" plan. The no return policy. If I owned a brick and mortar bookstore I wouldn't buy from them either.

Ironically, it was the PA board that got me here, and turned off to PA!

It sounds like they have a good idea, but it's poorly executed. If they would just have a more stringent submissions policy and put out only good books, then take returns, I think it would be a good small press. Sort of the area between vanity and traditional.

Thanks guys :)

[Ed Williams 3]

....is gone from the PA boards, imagine that....

[Sher2]

<Keep the PA authors from looking for information out here -- since they've been told that we hate them.
You see how it works?
Get Edited by Uncle Jim>

<The rationale there would be to keep his position as the head cheerleader. Then he can rally the troops behind him because they were attacked by, ahem, "outsiders". He has everything to gain by doing so.>


I see the rationale, Uncle Jim and Dave, twisted though it is. It seems terribly devious, but I can see where it would work to PA's advantage. It's not like they're overly concerned about their writers, anyway.:huh

[Sher2]

<So I type in Absolute write and begin to read. You pointed out the flaw in their "too good to be true" plan. The no return policy. If I owned a brick and mortar bookstore I wouldn't buy from them either.

Ironically, it was the PA board that got me here, and turned off to PA!

It sounds like they have a good idea, but it's poorly executed. If they would just have a more stringent submissions policy and put out only good books, then take returns, I think it would be a good small press. Sort of the area between vanity and traditional.>


Good for you, Risseybug. I just wish I'd had a clue that this and similar boards existed before I submitted to PA.

I completely concur with your assessment of what PA *could* be. There has to be a reason why they don't revamp their business model and are happy as hogs in slop continuing to resist change. I think that reason can be summed up in one word -- greed. The way it is, they have a ready-made customer base via each new author, don't have to pay for a traditional print run, and never take any unsold goods back. It's a win-win situation for PA and, if the authors end up in bankruptcy, it's no skin off PA's nose.

[priceless1]

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I'm please to hear, Lynn, that you have done something amazing after a difficult experience! The rumor mill is saying wonderful things about Behler Publications.<hr></blockquote>

Thank you, Kate. While the journey getting here was extremely painful, the ride has been sweet, indeed. It's nice to hear the rumor mill is grinding nicely. Honesty and honor will always pay off, and after my experiences it's sort of a mantra with me.

[Dodgem James]

"The rationale for the "Mr. Book" who's slamming the PA guestbooks is easy: he's trying to put a bad taste in the PA authors' mouths, so they'll be prejudiced against these boards. Create a bit of us-vs.-them. Keep the PA authors from looking for information out here -- since they've been told that we hate them."

Of course, there is a matter of the advocates needing to know how not to substantiate those beliefs.

You do a good job, Jim, dispelling the "us" vs. "them" stigma. The others, hopefully, will learn from your example. :thumbs

James

www.members.shaw.ca/writeguy

[Molly Brent]

I read the PA board this morning and there was a girl
saying she could not face her family or friends......she only sold 2 books.

After reading her post, I started to order her book and donate it to the library (my eyes aren't working well enough to read a book)

I certainly am not against the PA authors, but I thought about the fact that PA would get the money and one more book would do little to give her deflated ego a boost.

There have been a couple of PA's authors who made me angry and I was foolish to let them get to me.

Joyce Scarbrough is a wonderful writer. When I had such problems with my editing, Joyce is the one who came to my rescue. I can never repay her for the help she has given me. She is still with PA.

I hate PA with a passion and they have some trouble markers but for the rest of them, I wish them only success. I was there once.

It is not "us against them" it is us against PA.

Bet PA gets that private message board before the royalty checks come out.

Molly

[James D Macdonald]

Molly, why not write to Joyce privately? And Joyce is active over on the Mindsight (http://www.mindsightseries.com/cgi-bin/discus/discus.cgi?pg=topics) board. I'm sure she'd love to see you. There's no need for a civil war to separate friends from friends.

We're here to write good books and share good stories with the readers. We don't get extra points for hurting others along the way.

[Molly Brent]

James, Joyce and I are good friends. We went on book signings and tv interviews together so I know her personally. She lives in Alabama and I am in Mississippi.

We are still friends and still talk. I met her on the PA board and she offered to help me and that's how we met.

I was just making the point that I am only against PA, not their authors.

Molly

[James D Macdonald]

Ah, thank you for explaining, Molly.

By "with PA" you mean she still has a contract with them, you mean?

I wish her and you both the best.

In fact, Joyce is how I first got interested in PublishAmerica, when she popped up in alt.writing.scams (http://www.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&c2coff=1&safe=off&threadm=b9eb19fd.0306121711.4de5b78a%40posting.goo gle.com&rnum=6&prev=/groups%3Fq%3Dauthor:Joyce%2Bauthor:Scarbrough%26hl %3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26c2coff%3D1%26safe%3Doff%26selm%3Db9eb19fd.0306 121711.4de5b78a%2540posting.google.com%26rnum%3D6) on Usenet about a year ago to defend PA. I'd been reading and posting in that news group for years. So it was thanks to her and Canada James that I started to look at PA's business and how it was treating its writers.

[FM St George]

who's John?

from another board:

www.writermag.com/wrt/com...IC_ID=1347 (http://www.writermag.com/wrt/community/forum/topic.asp?page=3&TOPIC_ID=1347)

"Incidentally, recently on another writing group even John of "Preditors and Editors" said that Publish America "could be" a better alternative than publishing through poetry.com."

???

[DaveKuzminski]

There is no one named John at P&E, but I did state something to the effect that PA could be a better choice than Poetry.com.

My reasoning is that for approximately thirty dollars an author could have two books with only his poetry versus one book for around fifty bucks from Poetry.com containing just one or a few poems of the author's poetry. Plus, with PA, the author can sell more copies and make a couple of bucks for himself.

The way I see it, if PA wants to be the hammer that pounds Poetry.com out of business, that's fine with me.

[FM St George]

www.publishamerica.com/cg...e/5452.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/5452.htm)


kb3bfy
8/16/2004
12:03:07
Subject: Smacked by the local bookstore
Message:
Moral Encouragement Needed:

Hi all,

It is not very often that I post messages to the board. However, today I was smacked by the local bookstore. Please read the following account of what happened and provide your input…

Mind you before all of this happened, I have already been actively pursuing web promotion for my book and have just signed a contract with a specialist that meets with corporate book buyers; as such, I have been busting my rear end creating professional sales pieces to review with bookstores.

That being said, this afternoon at lunch, I went to the local bookstore and spoke with the acquisitions manager (this store is not a major chain – it is locally owned and operated). She immediately started a friendly conversation and stated that she would need a review copy to read herself before stocking the book in the store. This is an understandable policy as they want to make sure they do not carry anything that is inappropriate. Then she flipped the book over, glanced at the ISBN and said “this title is printed on demand is it not?” I had to reply that it was. She then went on and asked if this is my first work; I again replied that it was. At that point there was no congrats or anything. All that she said was “many authors choose to self-publish their first book before finding a major publishing house.” I stated that I was not self published – then she proceeded to tell me just exactly where, when and how to get off the boat with all the info she could muster to state that I was self-published!

I learned long ago, pick and choose your battles, only fight those you know you can win; it was quite obvious that this was not one of those. As such, I just stated that it is hard to find a publisher for your first work (trying to quite her down…) Then she says “how much have you been selling these for?” – I told her I have not been selling them, bookstores have been working with PA. Then she states “well lets just see if you are even in the system anyway.” – at this point I am really starting to become fried…

After she punches me up on the computer she says “ you are in here…” She then looks further and punches a bunch of numbers into her calculator and states “ you know, we are going to be selling your books for $25.00. No one is going to pay that much for a book so small – thickness means a lot with price….” Trying to save face, I stated that I would gladly stock the store with books then. (I don’t care, I just want the friggin book in the store)!

THEN she goes on to tell me that when I paid to have the book published I should have skimped on the price of the cover and type of paper the book is made up of. “You should really think about not choosing the full elaborate cover in full color the next time you publish. You may even want to consider using a cheaper paper that comprises the book.” Says she!

Flabbergasted, out of words and not sure just how to reply, I just stated “that is the nature of the beast I suppose…” After all of this, I brought out my sales materials of which I was quickly informed were irrelevant to this negotiation and thus ignored. I was told that they will review the book and be in touch….

At this point, I am eternally fried and any words of encouragement would be most welcomed. I feel that I have come to far to be smacked down by the local bookstore. The promotion guy I hired does not seem to think he is going to have a problem at all getting stores to stock my book; so why will the local bookstore refuse to be giving?

JeanMarie

8/16/2004
12:15:51
RE: Smacked by the local bookstore


Message:
Hi KB, Aren't the uneducated delightful? Yikes. I went to my local Barnes and got the evil sister of your person. My book is in the cover art stage. Anyway, I went as high as the corporate level in NY, I live in CT, and was told I would have to send a copy of my book to their small press dept. for approval. I was treated extremely well by the woman I spoke with and will indeed submit my book-sigh. So, feeling much like you did, I went down the street to Borders and was told THEY would be happy to set up a booksigning for me and WOUDN'T need to read the book first!! They're more than happy to support local authors!!
Point is, DO NOT give up. On the other hand, maybe she needed another cup of coffee?
Good luck,

Jean
Threads In Time
ISBN 1-4137-2295-4

********

*shakes head*

[Savannah Blue]

<Trying to save face, I stated that I would gladly stock the store with books then. (I don’t care, I just want the friggin book in the store)! >

And this is exactly the thing that PA is relying on. :head

SB

[aka eraser]

And she hired a "promotion guy." More $ flushed down the toilet. I feel badly for her. This is just the first of many slammed doors in her future. Maybe we'll be patting her back here in a few months and trying to cheer her up.

[HapiSofi]

Expertise in action! JeanMarie has no idea how kind, helpful, and knowledgeable that woman was being. I have real respect for someone who can size up a pagecount, enter a bunch of numbers in her calculator, and conclude that the author should choose cheaper production options next time. She was telling JeanMarie that at that pagelength, she needs a lower cover price.

I'd trust that bookstore manager a lot farther than I'd trust this PR guy JeanMarie has hired, the one who says he anticipates no problems getting her books into stores. Who'd hire a PR guy who says he can't do what you want?

[RealityChuck]

There is a rule that trial lawyers are taught never to break: never argue with an expert in his own field.

A bookstore manager -- especially one for a small, local store or chain -- is an expert on selling books (or she's out of business). It looks like she gave him a free lesson in the realities of the book business, and he refused to listen.

That "uneducated" comment is sad. Who should know more about selling books? The author or the bookstore manager?

[Molly Brent]

Go to Mindsight and read what Kevin did.

I have a few words for you Kevin......BRILLIANT..GENIUS
I'm sure PA has other words for you but on behalf of all
of us who got duped.........THANK YOU.

Molly Brent

[AnneMarble]

A bookstore manager -- especially one for a small, local store or chain -- is an expert on selling books (or she's out of business). It looks like she gave him a free lesson in the realities of the book business, and he refused to listen.

Incidents like this make me :bang No good dead goes unpunished.

This reminds me of another instance involving a PA author, some time ago, where a book reviewer politely told the author he could not review her book. Going above and beyond the call of duty, he told the author that the excerpt on her website had a lot of errors in it and suggested that she attend his critique group. Many of the posters got upset about him. (To be fair, some were trying to be civil and even point out that her site did have lots of errors -- those posts were probably pulled.) Never mind that this reviewer could have simply ignored the request or said NO without gonig out of his way to help. Of course, almsot everyone on that board thought he was a big poopyhead and that he was just out for the money he would get from the critique group. :shrug

Riiight, PA is never out for your money. :rofl

[Dodgem James]

"A bookstore manager -- especially one for a small, local store or chain -- is an expert on selling books (or she's out of business). It looks like she gave him a free lesson in the realities of the book business, and he refused to listen.

"That "uneducated" comment is sad. Who should know more about selling books? The author or the bookstore manager?"

Thanks Reality. It's about time someone clued in to this obvious fact.

(the other) James

[FM St George]

aye, it's a sad thing when you spit on those who are the ones who would KNOW about such things...

if he had actually sat down and taken notes, he may have learnt something - instead, he's nattering on at PA (the thread's been pulled, of course) about how DARE they insinuate that PA is anything but a traditional publisher and so on...

talk about biting the hand that could be feeding you, eh?

:(

[Ed Williams 3]

...to the thread re Kevin, you have my curiousity going as to just what exactly he did...

[Molly Brent]

I'll ask Kevin to post it here for you.

He wrote about 30 pages and then just copied it over and over and sent it in to PA ........they, of course, could not have read it.......but sent him a contract saying they were giving him the chance he deserved etc

I will e mail him and ask him to post the details here for you.

Molly

[XThe NavigatorX]

errrrr... there's a dedicated thread about it on here already. It's the "80%" thread below this one.

[Nameless65]

if he had actually sat down and taken notes, he may have learnt something - instead, he's nattering on at PA (the thread's been pulled, of course)
Do any of the PAers (PAers = "payers") ever question why these threads are pulled. Doesn't it make them suspicious?

[Sher2]

<Do any of the PAers (PAers = "payers") ever question why these threads are pulled. Doesn't it make them suspicious?>

The only thing they're suspicious of is someone daring to tell them a truism about their "publisher." That's guaranteed to send them into a tizzy.

[Dodgem James]

"The only thing they're suspicious of is someone daring to tell them a truism about their "publisher." That's guaranteed to send them into a tizzy."

I think it's more how they are told. Make fun of their writing, tell them they got published but are really a terrible writer, or simply imply that they got "duped" and you will always hit a brick wall. :head

Stick with the facts and the facts will speak for themselves. Whatever a PA author's opinion of their publisher may be at the start of the contract, it will change (a few months before or after) when the book is "released". :huh

Ostracize them or try and make an example of them (or worse, take out your frustrations of the company on them) and all you'll get is, as you put it, a "tizzy". :ssh

D. James

[Euan Harvey]

[DELURK]

>I think it's more how they are told. Make fun of their writing, tell them they got published but are really a terrible writer, or simply imply that they got "duped" and you will always hit a brick wall.

I wholeheartedly agree.

IMHO (and I really don't want to offend anyone, but I think it has to be said) the use of terms like 'PAvidians' and so on is victimising the victim, which I think is not really people's aim.

It's the company that's to blame, not the writers. Mocking them, or their writing, is not going to help.

This is not to say that they shouldn't be told...but it's like James said, it's all in how you say it.

>Stick with the facts and the facts will speak for themselves.

And boy, do they ever speak for themselves...

Anyway, those're my thoughts.

Cheers,

Euan

[RELURK]

[James D Macdonald]

Canada, you have a point, and it's true that some of us who find PublishAmerica's treatment of authors to be ... less than ideal ... can be more aggressive, abrasive, and assertive than perhaps is strictly necessary.

Yet ... do you remember your Quicksand Walking Shoes (tm)?

I'm trying to find some of the links. Ah, here's one of them:

<a href="http://p197.ezboard.com/fabsolutewritefrm32.showMessageRange?topicID=15.to pic&start=1&stop=20" target="_new">p197.ezboard.com/fabsolutewritefrm32.showMessageRange?topicID=15.to pic&start=1&stop=20</a>

(Ah, a blast from the past! Just drop down to the Take It Outside board and search on "quicksand.")

<a href="http://p197.ezboard.com/fabsolutewritefrm32.showMessage?topicID=4.topic&index=262" target="_new">p197.ezboard.com/fabsolutewritefrm32.showMessage?topicID=4.topic&index=262</a>

(Remember when we thought a thread was getting too long if it had five pages?)

How did those Quicksand Walking Shoes (pat. pending) work out for you? Have others used them sucessfully?

[Sher2]

<Ostracize them or try and make an example of them (or worse, take out your frustrations of the company on them) and all you'll get is, as you put it, a "tizzy".>

I agree, and it wasn't my intent to disparage PA writers collectively. As we all know, there are some fine writers at PA. Regrettably, there are also some who are nowhere near ready to be published. It's often the latter category who will jump blindly to PA's defense, no matter what, and refuse to hear any evidence to the contrary. I call that getting oneself in a "tizzy."

[KW]

Well here it is at last.

"Dear author,

We are proud to announce PublishAmerica's monthly topseller list in the New York Times!

At the initiative of the New York Times, we have secured a half page in the newspaper's world famous Book Review section, where PublishAmerica will announce its top ten bestselling books for the previous month.

For now, we plan to make this announcement every month, in the New York Times Book Review. We will re-evaluate this marketing strategy after three months. This is yet another absolutely free benefit of PublishAmerica.

The list will be determined by the number of sales in the preceding four weeks. Cut-off date is the last day of each month. The first next cut-off date is August 31. The ten PublishAmerica books that by that day have sold the most copies in the past four weeks will make it to PublishAmerica's monthly topseller list in the New York Times. All sales will be counted, since publishers don't distinguish between bookstores and individuals buying their books. Even books bought by the authors count!

This will give our winning authors a unique and much-envied exposure to the world's most determined and sophisticated book reading audience. The ad will include an image of their book's cover, the title, and the author's name.

So, if your book becomes one of this month's bestselling PublishAmerica titles, expect it to show up prominently in the New York Times soon thereafter. Winners will be informed in advance.

We are proud of our future winners, and we thank the New York Times for approaching us."


"All sales will be counted, since publishers don't distinguish between bookstores and individuals buying their books. Even books bought by the authors count!"

Can you say just another way for the authors to open their checkbooks? Look what they are doing. If you're book is one of the bestselling then it will be listed in the NYT book review section (an add, not a review). And to top it all off even books bought by the author will count since publishers don't distinguish between individual sales or bookstore sales. So pull out your checkbook, or mastercard, visa, we take those too, and buy as many books as you can. If you buy the most you will be in the NYT!!!!!!!

Operators are standing by.

Kevin

[FM St George]

oh my Lord...

they'll be mortgaging their houses now...

*spits on ground*

the fools...

[lindylou45]

The ad will include an image of their book's cover, the title, and the author's name.

They even admit it's an advertisment! Will wonders ever cease? Of course, they're still saying NYT "approached" them. Yeah, the SALES department! :bang

[DeePower]

The sad thing is, this won't make much difference in placing the books in bookstores. And that's what the authors are hoping for.

Dee

[James D Macdonald]

Even books bought by the authors count!

Well, we can watch for the ads and see, not which authors are selling the most to the public, but which authors have the fattest checkbooks.

Tell you what: When the first ad comes out I'll check all the books in it against the Amazon best sellers for PA, and against the numbers sold through Ingram for those titles in the past week and the past year.

That should be ... illuminating.

[DeePower]

From the PA board.

www.publishamerica.com/cg.../10642.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/main/10642.htm)

Subject: Anti-PA thread turned positive!


Message:
Have a look here to see how a thread potentially harmful to PA (on another website) was nipped in the bud: users.boardnation.com/~br...readid=840 (http://users.boardnation.com/~bradymagazine/index.php?board=49;action=display;threadid=840)

R. Eric Swanepoel
Saving the World and Being Happy (The Computer Ager)
BeingHappy.info (http://BeingHappy.info)

*********************

It's not positive anymore! I just posted.

And the message has already been deleted by the PA Board Trolls.

Dee
www.brianhillanddeepower.com (http://www.brianhillanddeepower.com)

[vstrauss]

>>Even books bought by the authors count!<<

No s**t. This is really despicable.

>>At the initiative of the New York Times<<

I'm sure this is literally true, but I'm also sure that the initiative was a phone call soliciting advertising. What false hopes this is going to stir. Talk about manipulation.

>>We will re-evaluate this marketing strategy after three months.<<

Translation: we'll check to see if there's been a spike in author-generated book sales. If not, the NY Times is history.

This reminds me of the Oprah come-on they did a while back, where they said they were going to promote bestselling PA books to Oprah's book club or something like that. Authors were scrambling to buy their own books then too.

- Victoria

[Sher2]

<It's not positive anymore! I just posted.

And the message has already been deleted by the PA Board Trolls.>

Isn't that something? I had seen it and, before I could even comment on it, the Board Police had stamped it out. IMO, I didn't think that other forum did much to save PA's reputation, either. It was essentially one post, by one devotee. Sheesh.

[aka eraser]

Despicable? Yep.

Surprising? Alas...not at all.

[Sher2]

<This reminds me of the Oprah come-on they did a while back, where they said they were going to promote bestselling PA books to Oprah's book club or something like that. Authors were scrambling to buy their own books then too.
- Victoria>

PA has a creative sales department, I'll give them that. If only they would divert some of that creativity toward selling BOOKS! This will have already indebted PA authors scrambling around trying to raise funds to get in on this "deal of a lifetime." It's truly despicable and sad.

Victoria, I think you'll make a fine moderator of this board, by the way. Kudos!

[James D Macdonald]

And, as you'd expect, that devotee was someone whose book hasn't yet come out.

[CaoPaux]

For grins and giggles, I found the NYT ad rates for the Books section: 2004_Rate_Book_PDF_Books.pdf (http://www.nytadvertising.com/was/files/others/2004_Rate_Book_PDF_Books.pdf)

I wonder if PA qualifies for the Small Press rate....

[JohannaJ7]

Erm, maybe this doesn't concern me, but why does their letter to their authors sound like some cheap spam-mail? It's got this "Upgrade now and you might win this nifty cruise!"-tone to it, you know? I don't think I'd be able to stomach my publisher talking to me like I'm some daft little consumer they're trying to reel in.

I'd like to know if PA is really planning on expanding into Scandinavia. I know they're in Iceland already, but I seem to recall readng somewhere that they're aiming at the Scandinavian market. I don't know if they'd have much luck here, seeing as how the laws are a lot stricter. But it'd be fun to watch them try.

[James D Macdonald]

"Small Presses are defined as those Independent Publishers whose press runs do not exceed 8,000 copies per title."

Yes, I'd say that PA does qualify as a small press for the purposes of the NY Times.

So, the cost of each of those ads is $17,635 (though I wonder if they got a special introductory offer for the first three months...).

And... how convenient! PA's last special offer for their authors expired on 30 July (the celebratory one for announcing this Great Partnership with the New York Times).

So authors are getting a 30% discount on their books, plus shipping.

Lighting Source charges $0.013 per page, plus $0.90 per cover.

So ... a typical $19.95 PA book, 250 pages. Let's look. $4.15 per book from LSI.

Author pays: $13.965 plus shipping.

PA's profit per copy: $9.815 plus shipping fee - actual cost of shipping.

Break even point on this ad is 1,797 books sold to authors.

Number of authors required who will buy 100 copies to reach that break-even point: 18.

So, do you think that among PA's 5,000 happy authors you'll find 18 who will buy 100 copies this month to have a shot at that ad placement?

There are 5,711 PA titles listed on Amazon as of this evening. 18 is about 1/3 of one percent of those titles.

So ... even if less than 1% of PA authors go for this deal to the extent of popping for 100 copies, they've made their break-even.

Let's say 5,000 happy authors. Suppose 1% of them buy 100 copies this month that they wouldn't otherwise have bought. That's fifty happy authors, each providing $1,396.50 in profits (not counting shipping costs). That's $69,825 in profits. Minus the cost of the ad, $17,635, for a solid $52,190 in profits this month, just from this one promotional scheme. (More if the authors buy 200 copies each, or 500 copies each... just four authors buying five hundred copies of their own book (what's the matter with you, don't you believe in your own writing?) and PA's made their nut.)

Don't say that PA's marketing department doesn't know what it's doing.

But will this help PA's authors?

Well, if the books aren't in stores for the readers to buy, the readers won't buy them. The author has cases of books filling his attic -- but how are the people who read the New York Times going to find him to buy them?

And do you know why publishers generally don't buy ads in the New York Times for new writers? That's because ... the ads don't bring in enough sales to make it worthwhile. So these ads wouldn't bring in enough outside sales to pay for those purchases the authors made, even if the books were in stores.

This ad will make money for the publisher. I'm not talking about the ad in the Times. I'm talking about the email they just sent out.

Publisher sells books at inflated rates to own authors = vanity press. Just in case anyone missed that little detail.

[DaveKuzminski]

PA's sales department is selling books. It's just that they have no qualms about doing all the selling to their authors.

Now we'll get to see false claims about PA books being on the NYT bestseller list. Of course, those won't be on THE NYT BESTSELLER LIST, but will be on a list in an ad on the NYT parading itself as PA's bestsellers. So, even if the ads don't bring in more than enough sales to break even, it will bring in a hundred or more writers.

[lastr]

The email from PA states "All sales will be counted, since publishers don't distinguish between bookstores and individuals buying their books. Even books bought by the authors count!" So they are suggesting that a publisher doesn't distinguish whether a bookstore or the author buy the book? Even a Vanity press counts the percentages and (or if) royalties are involved differently between those two.

Does any other publisher *give* royalties to authors on the purchase of their own books? That is like getting back dividends on life insurance - a refund on a bit of the premium to sweeten the cost of the insurance in the buyer's eyes.

[Dodgem James]

Thanks, Jim, for proving me right by drawing the line in the sand between "us" and "them".

Nice to know you still consider me "them".

D. James

[James D Macdonald]

You're only a "them" if you want to be, Cananda.

[absolutewrite]

OK, someone posted an IP address for Mr. Book a few days ago. These threads move too fast for me. Would someone repost it or point me to it, please? I need to compare it to another IP address.

Oh, and you want to talk about a "them?" He's a "them."

To anyone who's coming here from PA thinking that we're in any way affiliated with Mr. Book and/or the Amazon Slammer-- we're not. We think he's idiotic, too.

[RealityChuck]

This "deal" with the NY Times sounds suspiciously like the same thing that Vantage Press has done for years: take out a tombstone ad in the Times each month listing their recent books. Just another thing PA has in common with a vanity press.

It has long been suggested that the term "tombstone" is very appropriate in describing the sales effect of this sort of ad.

[KW]

A friend of mine tracked it down Jenna. This is what they found.

oh-lakeside-cadent1-bdg13-15a1-238.clvhoh.adelphia.net

It's coming from 3300 Lakeside Ave E, Cleveland, OH 44114, Bldg 13. I have the phone number to if anybody wants it.

Kevin

[vstrauss]

>>Does any other publisher *give* royalties to authors on the purchase of their own books?<<

The large houses (I'm not so sure about independents--I suspect it varies) pay royalties on authors' purchase of their own books at discount. But the author is specifically prohibited from re-selling those books--they're supposed to be for personal use only.

- Victoria

[James D Macdonald]

I don't get royalties on promotional copies sent to me.

Any beyond the number (usually ten or twenty) of free copies specified in the contract have their wholesale cost deducted from my royalties.

Like anything else, this is negotiable.

[KW]

Check out this thread.

www.publishamerica.com/cg.../10646.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/main/10646.htm)

I see the infamous cb, aka infocenter, stepped in to save the day. They have to make people think their partnership with the Times is a good thing you know.

Man, we keep hijacking their threads over here, no wonder they are setting up a private board.

Kevin

[lindylou45]

I just talked to a PA author who has spent $16,000.00 on a PR firm. They have been trying to get 100 copies of her book for two months now and PA will not even respond to their request. She called PA and was told that it was just bad business for this PR firm to request so many copies. PA would only send 3 or 4 at the most. She was told the only way they would send 100 books was if she bought them herself and it would take 4-6 weeks to ship them. Her press release is slated to go out tomorrow.

Needless to say, she is devastated. :cry >:

[James D Macdonald]

A press release for a book that comes without a copy of the book itself is worthless.

[FM St George]

*shakes head*

so where are HB and all the PA defenders now that this poor woman's been scammed?

oh, right... too busy mortgaging their homes for the NYT "deal"...

[priceless1]

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>She called PA and was told that it was just bad business for this PR firm to request so many copies.<hr></blockquote>
I'm unsure whether the PR firm was willing to purchase 100 copies or wanted PA front them. If they wanted to have these copies fronted, I have to agree with PA to some degree. We, too, would have declined, but would have definitely offered them a discount.

[lindylou45]

I'm unsure whether the PR firm was willing to purchase 100 copies or wanted PA front them.

I believe they were asking for a discount on the same level that most bookstores would receive.

[HapiSofi]

A conventional publishing house would most likely be doing the publicity itself, at no charge to the author. If it's a very small house with no publicist of its own, or if an author wants to lay on additional PR resources, the PR firm they hired would start by getting in touch with the publishing house so they could coordinate efforts.

Taking two months to get back to your author's publicist is ... not professional. Among the many things that could be said of it.

I don't think her hired publicists were asking for a discount. I think they were asking to be given 100 copies to send out with a press release. That's not an automatic "yes" from a publisher, but there's nothing unreasonable about the request.

The only way it can be "bad business" to send out so many PR copies, as PublishAmerica claims, is if the business they're in doesn't involve selling books to the general public.

[priceless1]

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I believe they were asking for a discount on the same level that most bookstores would receive.<hr></blockquote>
Yes, we would provide that, provided an author had a publicist. But, since we have our own marketing dept. the point is probably moot since I think our authors would be perfectly satisified to let us foot the bill for their publicity.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>there's nothing unreasonable about the request.<hr></blockquote>
I quite agree, Hapi. To imply that it's bad business is, well, strange. As I stated above, there is no way we'd fork over 100 free copies anyone other than our marketing director, but there's nothing wrong in a PR firm asking. Have to start from somewhere, right?

[Arden19]

I will not be purchasing any more of my books. Yay for PA (sarcasm). They're placing an ad with the NYT. Yet they're sticking it to the authors to pay for that ad and everything else.

Bah. They got enough of my money.

[DeePower]

www.publishamerica.com/cg...e/5500.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/5500.htm)

Subject: A little "ad space" is an excellent start!

Message:
PA I congratulations! You've taken that first step in promoting authors that actually "sell books” for you! That's a good start and I hope it continues well past the three months. Reinvest a little $$$ in the talent you already have and watch want compotation does.

Incentive goes a long way not to mention it’s a good business investment.

Amo!
***************************8

Wrong, wrong wrong. I don't sell books for my publisher, my publisher sells my books.

PS What's compotation? I couldn't find it in the dictionary.
Dee
www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com (http://www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com)

[vstrauss]

Competition?

- Victoria

[XThe NavigatorX]

The act of spreading compost on the authors?

[Molly Brent]

How can this can possibly go over 3 months unless the top ten are always new authors?

It has nothing to do with the quality of the book.....only who can buy the most of their own books.

This is not a best seller list......it's the biggest buyer list.

Authors aren't selling books......they are buying books........some will max out their credit cards and have a garage full of books that they can't sell.

The top ten will be delighted the first month.......the others will try again........more books in the garage and their credit cards over loaded......

Ten will be delighted the 2nd month and the 3rd month, only the newbies can buy books.......the only ones laughing will be PA.

But then, we are "nuts" to think that PA isn't the greatest.

Molly

[FM St George]

just wait and see... I think by the end of three months there may be a lot MORE upset authors than PA thinks. If they get a clue after maxing out their cards, they'll realise that sales aren't going to go anywhere if you can't GET your book to start with...

wonder how HB is going to justify maxing out his credit card to da missus...

[Sher2]

<PS What's compotation? I couldn't find it in the dictionary.>


LOL, Dee. You'll find lots of words "over there" that aren't in any dictionary. Did Amo write that message? Isn't he supposed to be their resident editorial expert?

[Roxie the Doxie]

If it was compostition that would be competition of seeing who can stack the tallest pile of poop, PA or their booblehead authors.

[Sher2]

<I think by the end of three months there may be a lot MORE upset authors than PA thinks. If they get a clue after maxing out their cards, they'll realise that sales aren't going to go anywhere if you can't GET your book to start with...
wonder how HB is going to justify maxing out his credit card to da missus...>


Either that, or they'll be running around applying for new credit cards to finance the next get-rich-quick scheme. As for HB, he doesn't strike me as one who'd be overly concerned about what the missus thinks.

[lindylou45]

Taking two months to get back to your author's publicist is ... not professional. Among the many things that could be said of it.

PA never responded to the PR firm at all. The firm finally contacted the author and told her she would have to deal with them as they had not responded.

As far as the books - I'm not sure if they asked for a discount or not either, she thought they had, but is going to find out.

Isn't $16,000.00 a little high for a PR firm? Could she be dealing with two disreputable companies?

[James D Macdonald]

Let's see if we can figure out the PA timeline in advance.

September/Oct/Nov ... ads in the NYT for the top-selling books.

After November, program quietly dropped, not mentioning to the authors (who are buying their own books in hopes of getting in the December ad) that there won't be one.

December: Exciting announcment! Details soon! To celebrate, here's a way to buy hundreds of your books at a discount. Have 'em on hand for the holidays!

January (royalties coming soon): Exciting new plan announced, with some kind of great deal for authors who sell the most (buying your own books counts)!

Feb/Mar/Apr ... the exciting new plan is carried out, with authors competing with each other to buy the most of their own books.

May ... program quietly dropped.

June: Great news! Wonderful opportunity for PA authors will be announced soon! To celebrate, here's a chance to buy cartons of your own books!

... and so on.

[Molly Brent]

It took me a sec to catch it but you defined that word perfectly. Thanks for making me laugh.

Molly

[XThe NavigatorX]

Dear Lord, why am I wasting my time reading all this stuff about a publisher I have nothing to do with? I have 1500 words due by the end of tomorrow and I have 25 down. It's like getting addicted to Survivor.

Anyway. I noticed in that thread ( www.publishamerica.com/cg.../10646.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/main/10646.htm) ) There's two complainers. The first got slammed by our old friend CB, who as Kevin pointed out is the PA gestapo. That's the same screen name that claimed Kuzminski's books glorify child molestation. (that thread from last year is still on there.)

The second is (gasp) our friend Marti. I went to check on her Amazon page to see if those bad reviews were taken away, and they're still there. In fact there's more of them, all except one obvious slams. I was tempted to give her a pity 5-star review.

[lindylou45]

wonder how HB is going to justify maxing out his credit card to da missus...

He's already said on the PA message board that October is his because that's when Parasite comes out. He's just as excited as everyone else - but is it really excitement, or is he just trying to keep the other authors excited and oh so willing to open their wallets? :shrug

We'll see in October I guess. :eek

[DaveKuzminski]

Let's not dump on their authors. Instead, let's remember that some of those authors will find their way here because they'll want to spread the word quite vocally about what PA did to them. There will be many others who won't be as vocal, but their support is still needed. They are the ones who will quietly drop the word in the right ears to others who might have followed in their steps and know nothing of the numerous good writer sites on the Internet.

[KW]

"For now, we plan to make this announcement every month, in the New York Times Book Review. We will re-evaluate this marketing strategy after three months. This is yet another absolutely free benefit of PublishAmerica."

So they are only going to have three ads in the paper during this time. One a month. And as for a free benefit? Not really free if they expect the authors to buy their own books.

Kevin

[AnneMarble]

,The second is (gasp) our friend Marti. I went to check on her Amazon page to see if those bad reviews were taken away, and they're still there. In fact there's more of them, all except one obvious slams. I was tempted to give her a pity 5-star review.

There's even a one-star called "sorry about my son" that says one of the one-star reviews was posted by a woman's son because he was bored and playing a prank. That is just strange. If that's the case, couldn't the mother just contact Amazon and tell them to remove the review? And why did she post her comment as a one-star review? I don't know if she was trying to attract attention to her post (people might be more likely to read the one-star review) or if she simply didn't know how to contact Amazon, or if my tin hat is keeping out the alien mind waves.

FWIW both readers and authors can report obvious slams that have nothing to do with the book. I once reported a one-star review that blasted the author for an imagined slight at a booksigning. Amazon pulled that one within days. (By the time I reported it, something like 2 out of 37 people had ranked it as Not Helpful. :grin )

[James D Macdonald]

Lessee ...

PA already has 90 books listed for October over at Amazon.

All of those authors can max out their discounts if they order 251 or more (as new releases). (Someone check me if I'm wrong.)

So... HB has to compete against 90 other guys for one of those ten slots. And every one of them that has room on his credit card or can call Ditech is going to be buying 251 or more, in hopes of getting in that ad.

251 books, $19.95 each, 55% discount. $2253.35

Plus shipping, at $3 for the first book and $0.50 for each book thereafter: $128. Grand total: $2381.35 for the credit card, just to start even with the other 90 guys. If you really want to get in that ad in the NY Times, you have to guess how much the other guys are going to be willing to pay. It's kinda like Final Jeopardy only without knowing what the money scores are when you're making your wager.

For only $2,395, less than twenty bucks more, you can buy your own ad in the New York Times Sunday Book Review. 1/20 of a page, about 2" x 3", same size as your part of the 1/2 page PA ad that you're sharing with ten other books -- and you won't have to park your car in the street because your garage is full of books.

Sounds like a deal.

[Molly Brent]

Lindy, I hired a PR firm.

We bought books to send at 55% discount and no shipping charges(that was my biggest expense).

All the gifts, envelopes, postage etc were sent in as deductions. I had a CPA all the way.

I had a special account set up at the bank and paid all expenses from it and put all income from books in it.

After all was said and done, I was only out a few hundred dollars. (I did sell a lot of books at the reg price)

Then with all the deductions, I probably just about washed.

I can't remember how much it was but I think with everything.......it was less than $2000, but I did send the books myself.

When I hired them I was in the 3000 range on Amazon PA best seller list and moved to #22 so I was very pleased with them.

I thought if I could get my book into the hands of enough people, maybe something would happen.......I gave it my best shot and I failed.

My ego and reputation were greatly damaged but my bank account didn't suffer that much.

As you know, I am new to this, but $16,000 sounds really high to me.......

Molly

[Selenia692]

I know how you feel, I'll never have dealings with PA but I just can't help but read :p It boggles my mind the things they think they can get away with, it really does.

[HConn]

For only $2,395, less than twenty bucks more, you can buy your own ad in the New York Times Sunday Book Review. 1/20 of a page, about 2" x 3", same size as your part of the 1/2 page PA ad that you're sharing with ten other books

Actually, since a good portion of that 1/2 page ad will be given over to the Publisher's Name (I'm assuming), the "lucky" ten will get less than 1/20th of a page.

I used to work in newspaper advertising. The book section is a tough sell, and the rep who contacted PA is a pretty smart guy. However, I think--given a choice--I'd rather be part of a 1/2 page "banner" ad (I know it's not really a banner ad, but the ten authors will likely be positioned as though it was a banner ad) than to have a 1/20th ad all to myself. The tiny ad is tough for casual browsers to find, while the 1/2 page will really catch your eye.

Unless the tiny ad was something really clever. The best tiny ad I booked during my brief tenure was an ad for a haunted house at Halloween. It was a little black bat with "www.scary.com" below it (or something like that). You better believe I visited that web site.

I'm not saying the PA ad will help the authors, or that it's a good deal. I'm just saying that a tiny ad is tough to pull off. It's often wasted money.

[absolutewrite]

Hey KW! Do you have that IP address in the form of a number only? I have all the ip addresses on this board as numbers like 12.345.678.9... would like to see if I can figure out if "Mr. Book" is someone I banned from here.

[Sher2]

<Do you have that IP address in the form of a number only? I have all the ip addresses on this board as numbers like 12.345.678.9... would like to see if I can figure out if "Mr. Book" is someone I banned from here.>

For what it's worth, I searched that Cleveland address (3300 Lakeside Ave. E.). It's Adelphia Cable.

[lastr]

The lines will each show a range of numbers as in 4.1.0 to 4.1.99
Adelphia Cable (ADELPH-12)
Adelphia Cable Communications (ACC-37)
Adelphia Cable Communications (ADEL)
Adelphia Cable Communications (AS14065) ADELPHIA-AS2 14065
Adelphia Cable ADEL-240-29 (NET-4-22-240-0-1) 4.22.240.0 - 4.22.247.255
Adelphia Cable Communications ADELPHIA-CABLE (NET-24-48-0-0-1) 24.48.0.0 - 24.51.255.255
Adelphia Cable Communications ADELPHIA-CABLE-3 (NET-24-52-0-0-1) 24.52.0.0 - 24.55.255.255
Adelphia Cable Communications ADELPHIA-CABLE-5 (NET-24-206-0-0-1) 24.206.0.0 - 24.206.31.255
Adelphia Cable Communications ADELPHIA-CABLE-4 (NET-68-64-0-0-1) 68.64.0.0 - 68.71.255.255
Adelphia Cable Communications ADELPHIA-CABLE-4 (NET-68-168-0-0-1) 68.168.0.0 - 68.171.255.255
Adelphia Cable Communications ADELPHIA-CABLE-5 (NET-67-20-0-0-1) 67.20.0.0 - 67.23.255.255
Adelphia Cable Communications ADELPHIA-CABLE-6 (NET-68-232-0-0-1) 68.232.0.0 - 68.235.255.255
Adelphia Cable Communications ADELPHIA-CABLE-7 (NET-69-160-0-0-1) 69.160.0.0 - 69.175.255.255
Adelphia Cable Communications ADELPHIA-CABLE-8 (NET-70-32-0-0-1) 70.32.0.0 - 70.40.255.255
Adelphia Cable Communications ADELPHIA-NY-NET (NET-207-24-69-0-1) 207.24.69.0 - 207.24.70.255
Adelphia Cable ABS-JKSNMS-DIALUP (NET-64-66-84-128-1) 64.66.84.128 - 64.66.84.255
Adelphia Cable ADEL-CHVLVA-HEND1 (NET-216-174-33-0-1) 216.174.33.0 - 216.174.33.31
Adelphia Cable ABS-CHARNC-DIALUP (NET-216-174-44-128-1) 216.174.44.128 - 216.174.44.255
Adelphia Cable ABS-CHARNC-COLO (NET-216-174-44-0-1) 216.174.44.0 - 216.174.44.31
Adelphia Cable ABS-CHARNC-SERIALS (NET-216-174-44-32-1) 216.174.44.32 - 216.174.44.127
Adelphia Cable DADEFL-SB1 (NET-64-31-141-128-1) 64.31.141.128 - 64.31.141.255

[Dodgem James]

"Let's not dump on their authors."

Well, Dave, I realize I'm not supposed to communicate with you personally but I saw this and just had to.

This is EXACTLY the right idea and I commend you on pointing it out. If people dump on PA authors (even just by calling them PAvidians) they set up the wall between the "us" and "them" and it won't matter who is right or wrong they will feel ostrasized and therefore need to stand for their publisher and against everyone else.

James

[Dodgem James]

"You're only a "them" if you want to be, Cananda."

Unfortunately, Jim, this isn't true. And I think my pointing it out has helped some to realize that slamming the authors is not the same as slamming PA.

Even such comments like "A ____ and his _____ are soon parted" (want that link?) keeps the boundaries up from people who may, one day, need help. It tells a PA author that you think them a fool, and what person is going to be changed with that?

D. James

PS - I sold my second book today. It was to a local, indie press with national distribution and great PR. None of which, at any time, will I be asked to pay for. I'll email you privately, Jim.

PPS- and by the way, it's "Canada" not "Cananda" :p

[XThe NavigatorX]

'grats, James.

[James D Macdonald]

Even such comments like "A ____ and his _____ are soon parted" (want that link?) keeps the boundaries up from people who may, one day, need help.

No need for the link, Canada. I remember saying it.

Do you see the dilemma I face? There's very little I can do for someone who's already signed the PA contract. My greater concern is to keep people from signing it in the first place -- a contract never signed is easiest broken, y'know?

I also don't think that anyone should pay for multiple copies of their own books. Even after a person is published by PA, a reminder that laying out cash isn't a good idea ... I think I have to say it.

Now I admit that I can be a sarcastic SOB. And (not to my great credit, I know) sometimes can't resist being snide, especially to those who have fallen for the propaganda and are repeating it as if it were their own idea.

Tell me -- how would you suggest that I both warn folks away from what's (for most of 'em) a very bad deal being presented to them in glowing terms by someone who's a (in my opinion) cynical conman, and at the same time make them feel welcome? It's a balancing act.

Look, we've been conversing off and on, on various boards, for over a year now. Through all kinds of situations, and with various blood-caffeine levels. You probably have a pretty fair idea of where I'm coming from, and what my basic concerns are. I think that the Amazon Slammer is vile.

As time has gone on, more and more people have run into the contradictions inherent in PA's business plan, yet still more appear to sign up every day, replacing the old disillusioned folks with freshly hopeful new authors.

What strategy would you suggest, given that all I have are words, to save those eager newbies from making a mistake? (Even acknowledging that in some cases, for some specialized purposes, PA might be a better choice than some other possible paths -- but that the newbies probably don't have the knowledge to figure out if that's them or not.)

Know something? All I really want is for PA to treat their authors fairly and stop telling them fibs. Even if they had a fair contract and spoke honestly and openly about what they were doing and what their business plan was, they'd get more authors than they could handle. Trading on innocence and hope, like they do, that offends me.

I don't think that I'm standing at the head of the trail screaming about imaginary dangers. The dangers are all too real. Has your own experience shown that I was a little bit right about PA?

My goal, and I know I've fallen short of this, is to present myself as both friendly and knowledgable, so that people can write to me privately and know that they'll get my honest opinion, and that their secrets won't be repeated all over the 'net.

Oh, well, it's late. Time for me to get back to work.

[DaveKuzminski]

Not dumping on their authors is not the same as defending a point of view with one author who is stubborn and misguided and insists that his view, which only applies to him, is correct in its application to the other writers. If it's right for you, that's fine, but don't expect all those other writers to know as much or have the same resources or experience necessary to make good choices. There have been far too many examples in the PA forum, though most have been deleted, for anyone to claim that I'm wrong. And don't claim that you were defending yourself. Your posts that you were doing great with PA only gave them false hopes. We're doing our best to provide facts and warn them. You came on and arrogantly distorted the entire picture with your comments which only applied to your case and not everyone else.

Need I remind you who claimed not to have been published but already had one self-published book out? Would you like to be reminded who claimed to have industry knowledge and how you wouldn't reveal your background until it was dug out and you were asked for confirmation? No one here said that a boodstore clerk couldn't know about the industry, but you sure acted embarrassed when you had to admit that. Then again, most bookstore clerks don't have as much knowledge as you.

Now you claim your second book was just sold? Excuse me, but your second book went to PA. If anything, this will be your third unless you obtained a release from PA. Now I have to ask. Well, did you?

And if you weren't supposed to communicate, then why did you? You're a WRITER and you ought to be able to figure out at least ten other ways of agreeing without communicating personally. Leave out the second sentence and chop off half of the third is one way to do so.

Frankly, I hope you succeed as a writer. I just hope you eventually learn more responsibility toward others.

[Dodgem James]

Wow, Dave. I take back my compliment. You haven't changed.

And just so we're clear on three things:

(1) the industry doesn't consider self-pubbed books published so neither do I

(2) I was *never* ashamed of being a bookstore clerk, I was honest about it from the start, and you never "dug" that info out. I even wrote an article about it in a national magazine.

(3) Your post is exactly what I am talking about as the "us" vs. "them" theory and is *exactly* the kind of nonesense people should stay away from. That should be a wake up call to anyone wondering about your character vs. mine.

James

[Dodgem James]

Jim, I think I've been pretty clear that you do a good job, better than most, at being level-headed and helpful to new authors.

You just need to remember that when you start down the snide path it can hurt not only your rep (look what it did for me and Dave ... well, me.) but it can also turn the author so far into PA that they never see the light.
Even HB may one day hear the wake-up bells.

And yes, Jim, my opinion of PA has changed from my experiences. But it *hasn't* changed based on the reasons that the advocates have for considering PA a bad company.
PA worked out for me (in all honesty it would have worked out for me even without PA - my writing stands alone) but I can't see it working out for anyone else.

D. James

[James D Macdonald]

But it *hasn't* changed based on the reasons that the advocates have for considering PA a bad company.

Would you share with us the reasons that changed your opinion?

[absolutewrite]

James, congrats on the book sale!

D & J: (coughcough) :teeth

Jim: You explained the dilemma perfectly. It's such a fine line to walk.

[James D Macdonald]

Dave, James, I think both of you are swell guys, but boy do y'all have bad chemistry. Maybe best to just not even read each others' posts. Keeps the blood pressure in check.

[absolutewrite]

For the curious: The Adelphia IPs did not match the person I suspected. They did, however, match HB's IP (as used when he posted here), as has been previously mentioned. This isn't a conclusive answer-- merely more info.

[priceless1]

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I also don't think that anyone should pay for multiple copies of their own books.<hr></blockquote>

Uncle Jim, I've been reading your thoughtful and insightful replies for a long time now, and I just want to clarify one thing. As a small publisher, we can't afford to give our authors unlimited quantities of their books. Knowing you, I'm going to assume (yes, yes, ugly word, indeed) that you mean authors paying for books as the only means of marketing is bad.

When we have a title come out, we, too, offer our authors percentages off their books if they would like copies on hand. We can't afford to hand over tons of free copies. Our business plan is strictly based and dependant upon our marketing dept. booking signings, brow-beating the V.P. of small presses in the bookstores for national placement, radio and media interviews.

<shudder> I'd hate to be lumped with others...

[James D Macdonald]

Exactly, Lynn -- authors who buy their own books by the case to place in a handful of local stores on consignment, or to peddle them out of the trunks of their cars ... that's vanity press.

I'm not saying that you (or anyone) should give authors an infinite supply of free books. For me, with my various publishers, I get a contracted-for number of free books on publication. (And my agent gets a bunch of free copies too, to try to peddle to Hollywood and overseas, and to subrights vendors....) Any thereafter, I have to pay for, again per contract.

The way it works, I get the books from the publisher at cost, and with free shipping, but the price of the books comes out of my next royalty check. (Yes, I do promote my own books, but I don't spend every waking hour calling bookstores trying to arrange signings. And the books I get from my publishers are not for re-sale. I give 'em away like candy. (In fact, one Halloween I gave away copies of one of my YA horror novels to trick-or-treaters instead of candy.))

So, no, there's nothing wrong with authors buying extra copies of their own books -- until that becomes the publisher's business plan.

(A confession -- I once bought one of my own books. Retail! There I was, a couple of hundred miles from home and my cartons of books, when someone asked me for one. I nipped over to a bookstore, bought it, and handed it to the guy, without mentioning where I'd gotten it.)

For authors there's a difference between giving copies of your book to Mom and Dad and Uncle Bob, and selling copies of your book to Mom and Dad and Uncle Bob.

[lindylou45]

When we have a title come out, we, too, offer our authors percentages off their books if they would like copies on hand.

Lynn,

The difference here is that you're not expecting your authors to go out and try to place these books in bookstores and sell them where ever they can.

[XThe NavigatorX]

They did, however, match HB's IP

That just doesn't make sense to me. I mean, I understand the posts at Mindsight, but I find it hard to believe he'd go so far as to sell out some of his fellow authors by deliberately slamming them. I guess I understand the backwards logic of it, too, but it seems a bit ...excess.

Who knows what goes on in the minds of some people. Yikes.

[XThe NavigatorX]

Uncle Jim wrote:

In fact, one Halloween I gave away copies of one of my YA horror novels to trick-or-treaters instead of candy

lol. That rocks.

[FM St George]

*shrug*

who knows?

all we know now is that HB is not as sweet a fella as he plays himself to be... wonder if the PA peeps know that?

well, they do now... he is NOT your friend, folks - anyone who plays this sort of game isn't anyone you want to be associated it in any way...

[priceless1]

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>The difference here is that you're not expecting your authors to go out and try to place these books in bookstores and sell them where ever they can.<hr></blockquote>

Yes, this is true. We basically expected authors would want a few copies to personalize for friends or family.

[James D Macdonald]

There's no proof at all that the person who's showing up in the various guestbooks and signing himself "Mr. Book" is the same person as the one who showed up at Mindsight and signed himself "Mr. Book." It could be anyone, trying to muddy the waters.

What it is, is reprehensible.

[NancyMehl]

Makes perfect sense to me.

Last year, when HB was upset with a PAer who "left the fold," he went around putting this guy's book in the "instead of" recommendation slot on Amazon - on PA authors' pages. He did it just to rile things up. He admitted it on the PA board. To this day, some PA authors still blame the other guy - even though HB admitted it.

HB considers himself to be very clever. If he thought he could cause a bigger rift between current and ex-PA authors, he would do it in a minute. I'll bet a lot of those negative reviews are his also.

PA authors who think he is on their side are fooling themselves. If you play with fire...expect to get burned.

Nancy

www.nancymehlbooks.com

[XThe NavigatorX]

James,

I could be wrong, but Marti had said on the PA forum (which was subsequently erased) that someone who'd had their guestbook signed got the IP address and then posted it, which was the same as the one on the Mindsight forum. I know for my guestbook I can go into the control panel and see the info on each person who signed it. I can also block them from signing again. If I am wrong, though, I'll be the first to send a big, fat "I'm Sorry" to Mr. Marcus.

[James D Macdonald]

I think we're giving that clown too much attention. Everyone should just delete his guestbook entries and get on with their lives. If you got a slam review on Amazon, contact Amazon and have 'em take it down. And don't mention him again. My guess is that he thrives on causing outrage.

[XThe NavigatorX]

You're right. I'm going back to work.

[AnneMarble]

If you got a slam review on Amazon, contact Amazon and have 'em take it down.

Also, I've heard theories that having wildly divergent reviews on a book can make people more eager to buy it, just to find out which side is right. I don't know if that's true in call cases. After all, I've seen some cases where the glowing reviews said little except "Greatest book ever," and the negative ones were the only ones giving specifics.

In some cases, negative reviews have helped me decide to buy a book. For example, I once read a one-star review of a suspense novel that said something like "People who like this book must be simpletons. I can't believe they think this is good writing. If you want a real story, read Joseph Conrad instead." :rofl

God forbid people might just want to read a suspense novel (or fantasy novel or romance novel or whatever) to entertain themselves. With a review like this, who can resist buying the book just to go :p to the snooty reviewer.

And don't mention him again. My guess is that he thrives on causing outrage.

Mention who? :grin

[DaveKuzminski]

I never claimed to have changed.

I still do not consider myself to be on terms such that one particular individual should feel that he can address me anyway he chooses especially after I was requested to not use his real name.

Yeah, I know it's hard to prove any of those claims since he deleted his own posts. On the other hand, he can't prove otherwise, either. At this point, I really don't care.

Like I stated before. I hope he succeeds as a fiction writer.

[BeckEaston]

It's been suggested on other threads that we list facts regarding our discrepancies with Publish America promises, and not the emotional banter from what many of us who have been published with Publish America feel. It's with that suggestion that I give my own site some reflection.

I posted my experience based on the facts I was given by PA & Industry professionals, my contract, my results from what attorneys have told me, and my opinions. Anyone who wants to add to my site...please by all means, contact me and let me know your story. I will only post factual information and not supposition, accusation or interpretation. I'll be happy to add it so that we can have one general source of factual content for authors looking for a publishing house, and considering PA, besides the information provided in P&E. Since Dave's site is not privy to contractual obligation or emails from PA. Authors can evaluate the facts and decide for themselves.

Incidentally, I will add news if anyone tells me a great success story they've had with Publish America. If Publish America has stood by you and fulfilled promises made to you, I want to post that too. Make it a promise they advertise or contract for, and have delivered on that promise.

Finally, if authors see no positive posts, we can assume that no one has stepped forward with positive information about this publisher. ;)

rebeccaeaston.com/newpage1.htm (http://rebeccaeaston.com/newpage1.htm)

[DaveKuzminski]

Rebecca, you might want to check the link to Lightning Source. You have it spelled as Lightening which is something different.

[BeckEaston]

I have the hyperlink right. I'll fix the spelling. Hey, I cannot find that Authors POD site that PA has. I thought it was authors.net...but it comes up wrong. I had it and then I changed my favorites and BOOM gone. So, if anyone has the correct site link that goes to the POD company PA owns, can you send that to me? Thank you.

Anything you want to add Dave?

[James D Macdonald]

<a href="http://www.authorsmarket.net/" target="_new">www.authorsmarket.net/</a>

This one?

[BeckEaston]

Nice to see you again! Wow. Did you give me some great advice, leads etc. All of it helped immensely in my pursuit of justice and I thank you, Sir! :hail

Web page/link has been updated!

[DaveKuzminski]

Rebecca, I'll be glad to help if you let me know what you need there.

That Lightning Source link still doesn't work right. There's still an e in it that needs taking out.

[BeckEaston]

Okay I changed it again. Check it out now and let me know if it works for you. Worked on my PC but my server is here too.

If you check out the site, I have some pretty formal promises made by PA and refutable evidence to the right. (Notice I used the RIGHT! No political ties there. LOL)

So, if you have promises that you know of that PA has suggested, used, made or whatever and have an author who wouldn't mind me putting their info to refute it on my board, please send it my way.

For all those PA enthusiasts reading this...send me yours as well.

Geez! Have to be so fair all the time. :p

[lindylou45]

Very well done, Rebecca. :clap

[DaveKuzminski]

Sure, but heck, aren't you supposed to put a link in your post so we can find it easily without having to search through our own computers' past histories? ;)

Okay, just got back. The link is working fine now.

By the way... yeah, something else... you might want to look down a block or two where you state that PA slanders writers in e-mail. Actually, slander is oral. Libel is when it's in print, so you'd want libeled as the choice of words.

Anyway, don't feel bad. I was finding my own errors in P&E for almost six months after it came out. Still make them.

Um, could you change my email address to the prededitors@att.net address so I'll know when it's publishing business and give it more priority?

[BeckEaston]

Dave,

Do I have that email address?

Thanks for the tip. Any others pass em on!

[astonwest]

"In fact, one Halloween I gave away copies of one of my YA horror novels to trick-or-treaters instead of candy"

If you don't mind, I believe I may use this myself this year...Halloween is almost right around the corner...

How did you handle it when you'd have kids who were too young to read your book? Still have candy around?

Big Daddy West
:hat

[Dodgem James]

C'mon Jenna. This isn't a "D&J" thing. Let it be stated that I complimented him and he jumped all over me.

The Advocates would do well not to let their own destroy their hard work. Or, my advise, keep a good distance from that particular person's reputation.

And Jim, I'd love to tell you what changed my mind but I'll do it via email. Unfortunately Dave still makes this an unfriendly place for me and no one is willing to stand up to his foolishness.
If you don't want an "us vs. them" kind of advocacy, start standing up to Dave. Period.

Sorry Jenna, but if no one is going to stand up to the guy when he's being a jerk I'm certainly not going to sit back and take his abuse. He's worse than PA so far as I'm concerned.

D. James

[Ed Williams 3]

I don't care who said what, who started it, or anything else, just please don't let another pissing contest between these two get started. :bang

[XThe NavigatorX]

Whatever you do, don't give out pennies on Halloween. Unless you want your car covered with angry little dings.

[vstrauss]

......Dave and C. James, I know each of you feels insulted by the other, but for the peace of the board and the continued viability of this thread, I'd like to ask if both of you could please avoid confronting one another and/or commenting on each other's characters and achievements, however justified you feel those remarks to be.

Thanks a million--

- Victoria

[DeePower]

There have been several numbers tossed about, can anyone verify how many employees PublishAmerica has? I don't need to know the names and don't want to but I would like to find out the number.

Dee
www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com (http://www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com)

[Sher2]

<can anyone verify how many employees PublishAmerica has? I don't need to know the names and don't want to but I would like to find out the number. >


In addition to Meiners and Clopper, there are 5 editors (names withheld) that I'm aware of, plus the frequently changing names attached to "Author Support." Temps?

[James D Macdonald]

<a href="http://www.ripoffreport.com/reports/ripoff102645.htm" target="_new">Complaint by a PublishAmerica author</a>

<a href="http://www.ripoffreport.com/reports/ripoff102689.htm" target="_new">And Another One</a>

[Risseybug]

Those poor people. At least they finally saw PA for what it was and are trying to take a proactive stance about it.
Some lessons are learned the hard way, I guess. But I really feel bad for them.:huh :gone

[BeckEaston]

Doesn't it just seem awful that PA does nothing to change its deception???

[James D Macdonald]

Well ... PublishAmerica says that out of 8,000 authors they've only had two or three complaints. There are two of them right there. So ... who's number three? Would you please stand up? Yes, you sir, there in the back. What's your name?

Oh ... here's a happy PA author: <a href="http://attemptedrapture.com/publishamericashow2.htm" target="_new">Lunch with Willem</a>

[DaveKuzminski]

Gee, just think of how many copies he could purchase with his author's discount. However, it appears to be a parody.

[BeckEaston]

I'm the third! hee hee

That Rapture thing is so weird!

[lindylou45]

The second one is mine.

:thumbs

[KW]

Jenna, can you email me the proof you have that the I.P. address cam from HB. I know a few people that are looking into this but they need proof, or something other than just words.

ayky@charter.net

Kevin

[ncq13]

**Oh ... here's a happy PA author: Lunch with Willem**

Jim,
I hate to ASSUME anything, so... This is a joke right? Please tell me this is a joke!


~Kate
katestamour.com (http://katestamour.com)

[dgkgoldberg]

it is a total and complete parody -- go through the entire thing

[ncq13]

LOL! I am trying not to take anything for granted. Asking an international bestseller if they would like to co-author their award winning series with you is pretty darned insane too-- and someone seriously thought that the famous author would do it. Since I read that post months ago, I have given up on assuming!!
Kate
katestamour.com (http://katestamour.com)

[HConn]

I went to the lunch with Willem site and stumbled on the forums (Under The Cult of Mitchell Warren. (http://b5.boards2go.com/boards/board.cgi?user=thelatemitchellwarren))

The place looks like a halfway house for internet stalkers and trolls. What did this Warren guy do to deserve so much hate? Is it his PA parody site?

Creepy.

[James D Macdonald]

That isn't a real forum there -- it's a parody of Writers.net.

<HR>

Meanwhile, over at the PA boards, concerning the upcoming PA ads in the New York Times Sunday Book Review, we read:

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>What an incentive! What a publisher! My heartiest congratulations to PublishAmerica. We are quite fortunate and very lucky authors. Isn't it interesting how the cat suddenly grabbed the naysayers tongues! Thank you PA. <hr></blockquote>

<a href="http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/5491.htm" target="_new">Sell well and you'll be in the NYT.</a>

Cat grabbed the naysayers' tongues? Hardly. It's just that the big discussion happened a few days ago (http://p197.ezboard.com/fabsolutewritefrm11.showMessageRange?topicID=209.t opic&start=1601&stop=1620), when this latest scheme to make PA authors max out their credit cards was formally announced. The conversation has moved on.

(And for the price of just 253 of your own books at the author's discount (counting shipping), you can have an ad in the Sunday New York Times Book Review of your very own, without having to fill your garage with cartons of books!)

[KW]

FACT #4: Each day, an average 12 times a PublishAmerica author is invited to do a book signing or another in-store event at a bookstore or a library. An average 250 times each day, a bookstore calls or logs on to order a PublishAmerica title. Of all the brick-and-mortar bookstores, Barnes and Noble is our largest customer. Borders/Waldenbooks and Books-A-Million are second and third.

250 x 30 = 7,500 (30 days in a month.)
7,500 x 12 = 90,000 (12 months a year.)
90,000 x 4 = 360,000 (4 years they have been in buisness.)

They say that they are going to sell their millionth book? That means that there are 640, 000 books that were sold to family/friends and authors and online. They claim that an average of 17 books are sold through the contact lists they get. So....

17 x 7,000 = 119,000 (7,000 is the number of authors most likely with books out as of now.)

640,000 - 119,000 = 521,000

So 521,000 books were sold to the authors themselves and online. Yet they claim that the majority of their sales are through bookstores and online. Heck, let's give them the benefit of the doubt.

521,000 - 120,000 = 401,000 (120,000 being how many books sold on ine.)

So the number of books sold a year to bookstores is 360,000. The nuber sold to authors is 401,000. This looks like the authors buy more books.

[BeckEaston]

Check it out, Sweetie. Hey, I couldn't put supposition on who purchases what. I can only ask the question and do the math.

rebeccaeaston.com/newpage1.htm (http://rebeccaeaston.com/newpage1.htm) :)

[DaveKuzminski]

But they've also claimed to have sold 250,000 books. What if that is the truly accurate figure? How does that affect your calculations?

[Ed Williams 3]

p197.ezboard.com/fabsolut...=252.topic (http://p197.ezboard.com/fabsolutewritefrm11.showMessage?topicID=252.topic)

:smack

[BeckEaston]

On their web site and in some emails they claim their sales is at 1 Mil books. I can only operate that which I've seen or read somewhere. I don't know what the "real" figure it, but then again, I don't think anyone does but PA and they're not telling the absolute truth!

Did you check my figures? I am horrible at math...but then again, unlike PA, I can admit when I make a mistake. :ha

[BeckEaston]

Is HB actually suggesting that Kevin sent this information via HB? What?

:smack

[James D Macdonald]

Sorry, Kevin, that's bad math. It only works if you assume that each bookstore only orders one copy of one book when they call that "average 250 times each day." Unfortunately, we don't know if the stores order one, two, or a thousand copies in any of those calls. (I know what you suspect, and I suspect the same thing, but it's not derivable from the information given.)

There are fun things we can derive from "Fact #4" of theirs, but that isn't one of them.

This can be derived: "Each day, an average 12 times a PublishAmerica author is invited to do a book signing or another in-store event at a bookstore or a library."

12 times a day * 365 days in a year = 4380 invites in a year.

4380 invites / 5000 happy authors = 0.876 = 87.6% of PA authors get one invite during the course of a year. The other 12.4% don't get invited at all. For every happy author who gets a second invite, there's another not-so-happy author who loses his.

I do wonder how many of those "invites" were actually the PA author calling the community relations manager rather than the other way around. In other words, they invited themselves.

[DaveKuzminski]

I think Kevin's close to the truth. PA has a nasty habit of stating things in a manner that appears to make them look bigger than they are while sticking close enough to the truth that they can still wiggle out of it in court, or so they think.

I think the operative word is "a" title. Not two copies of each title which is something that PA would literally crow about. Even then, they're probably using averaged figures for their statement.

[DeePower]

other than the normal order form at the PA website. And even if the bookstore orders through that order form how would PA know it was a bookstore.

On another topic. I am going to be contacting the reporters I know at Business Week, Wall Street Journal and USA Today about the alledged discrepancies between what PA says and what they actually do and the way they treat their authors.

If you haven't already contacted me and are willing to be interviewed and be quoted by name, contact me at authors@brianhillanddeepower.com Your name will not be included in the query letter and of course you have the choice to decline being interviewed when you find out which publication is interested. I will not be writing the story, I can't be unbiased as a journalist in this case. (that might be my understatement of the year)

If you're wondering how I know these reporters, it's from my former career as a consultant, that I am considered an expert in venture capital, business planning, and entrepreneurs and that my (our) previous two books are about venture capital etc.

Dee

[DaveKuzminski]

Dee, stuck key on your keyboard?

As to interviews, I'm available.

[KW]

Never was great at math. I just took into account a title since the majority of bookstores will only order a PA book when it is requested.

But to be fair, add a few more thousand to bookstore sells and subtract that from the author bought copies. The author bought copies still comes out to be more.

The figure might not be dead on, but close enough, in a round about way.

Let HB sue me. The last I checked they had no basis to do that on. Everything I posted is accurate and can be proven. The fake mss was an attempt to see how accurate their promises were. If anybody can get sued for checking on the reliability of facts then there would be a lot of news organizations that would be sued as well.

HB, just so you know. I have a 1988 Nissan sentra. It's paid for, if you want it. You might get stranded trying to drive it to Ohio though. Come and get it, just make sure you have court documentation to prove it's yours.

I made you mad? Oh, well. I guess showing the truth will do that to some people. Plus, what basis do you have to sue me on anyway? Did I prove you were Mr. Book? Nope. Did I take away sells from your books? Nope, but even if I did I could sue you as well for the same reason. Your behavior on the PA MB could have scared potential buyers away resulting in the sell of a book. In fact I could say the same thing for PA. My book could be with a REAL publisher right now making me some money, but it's stuck at PA, because they lied to me to get me to sign with them, and now the sales are almost non existent.

If you guys want to sue me, go ahead. Appeals and counter suits can easily follow.

Have a nice day.:D

Kevin

[Ed Williams 3]

...from HB. Trust me. However, PA needs to do some serious thinking about their chief spokesperson. Some of his comments are quite threatening, and even border on libel or worse. PA needs to think about the fact that lots of us save these threads before they get pulled, and is it worth risking HB spouting off late one night and his post lasting long enough for the wrong set of eyes to see it? Y'all may be crooked, but you have certainly shown the ability and willingness to make a buck - why imperil all that for a jerk who doesn't seem to be able to sell books in the first place. Are the diatribes worth it, is he bringing in new business for you?

[vstrauss]

Dee, I'm certainly willing to be quoted.

- Victoria

[DaveKuzminski]

Ed, I think at this point, HB is too much a part of them for them to cut him loose or attempt to muzzle him. Either way, he'll probably turn on them. He'll deny that until it happens. Then stand back. He'll be offering information to the highest bidder.

For now, their safest bet is to watch for his posts and yank anything he posts that threatens their security.

Frankly, I think Joyce Rapier is far more dangerous than HB. She draws in victims because she doesn't threaten them. She tries to make every PA offer sound like it's made from fresh dough sweetened with honey.

[arainsb123]

I read the Whiners.net parody and it was hilarious. Don't get me wrong, I love writers.net, but whiners.net was scarily accurate about how some of the writers.net users behave.

Especially when the trolls posted. LOL.

[KW]

I was laughing my butt off. Sorry people, but it was funny. I guess his whole website did what he wanted it to, because now I want to buy his book.

Controversy does sell.

Kevin

[lindylou45]

Dee, I'm certainly willing to be quoted.

As am I.

[James D Macdonald]

I'd be happy to horse up a reporter on background.

[BeckEaston]

We talked right? Quote me, use my web site...do whatever! Good luck to you.

[DaveKuzminski]

While doing a search of the Ripoff site, I discovered that two complaints come up using "PublishAmerica" and one comes up when using "Publish America" so it occurred to me that the same problem might be happening in other search engines. With that in mind, I think we should advise everyone to use both forms in the body of any complaint or posting on the Internet.

[snarzler]

Maybe its just me but when I type in whiners.net I get a page of links for beers and cigarettes.
Am I doing something wrong? :shrug

Andrea :peace

[arainsb123]

The Whiners.net parody board doesn't actually have a domain name, I don't remember where it's hosted.

[HConn]

From Google:

attemptedrapture.com/publishamericashow9.htm (http://attemptedrapture.com/publishamericashow9.htm)

But that's not the forum (http://b5.boards2go.com/boards/board.cgi?user=thelatemitchellwarren) I was talking about.

[James D Macdonald]

I'd like to recommend that anyone who has a first-person complaint with PublishAmerica post their story at <a href="http://www.ripoffreport.com/default.asp" target="_new">Ripoff Reports</a>. It can't hurt for authors who are searching for information to find it there.

[absolutewrite]

:ha I love the Whiners.net parody! That just made my afternoon. Patiently waiting for a parody of the AW Water Cooler...

[snarzler]

HConn

Thank you for the links.

After reading...oh boy! :ssh

Andrea :peace

[Risseybug]

Wow, that was funny. I like the parody of our favorite watchdog, Dave.

Oh man, do it again, do it again!!!:rofl :rofl

[Risseybug]

this thread is still up!
www.publishamerica.com/cg...e/5543.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/5543.htm)

I thought for sure this would have been pulled by now :grin .
Guess some others saved the day with their explanations.

[TerriLynn]

:rofl :rollin :lol
OMG, I just read the parody...which I have never heard of until now.

It's really hysterical...however...I don't think the people he's referring to would think so. (and I know who most of them are since I was around during those trying times)

Tooooo funny!!

[emeraldcite]

When you remind them that a good CD costs 20 bucks and you can listen to them in 20 minutes, they usually get the picture.


lol... i haven't seen a 20 dollar cd since ... the mid 90s. I don't think i ever paid 20 bucks for 20 minutes of music. most cds run 10-16 now, and the price is dropping. if i see a place that's trying to sell a cd for 18-19, i go on amazon or another store...