Archive of the NEPAT

[DaveKuzminski]

...how PA gets ultra defensive whenever someone wants to take a look at their record keeping situation re royalties. Anytime someone appears to be hiding something, there's usually a good reason why...

Wouldn't surprise me if one of the PA partners was skimming from the royalties in the belief that none of their writers, most of whom would soon be tapped out and unable to afford arbitration, could then do anything about it.

Personally, I think arbitration was placed in the contracts because it gives PA more opportunities to influence the results by dictating when and where and by who said arbitration would take place. Plus there appear to be no teeth for enforcing arbitration, so they could simply ignore any unfavorable results and watch their authors flail about helplessly because going to the next step, namely court action, would incur more expenses for the author. In other words, PA is betting that most people won't throw away more money on taking action than they're likely to recover.

[book_maven]

Let me just add a quick but hearty "Hurrah!" for the Ignore button. I instituted it last week, and it really does make thread life easier and (personally) more peaceful. Do try it. You really will like it.

[Canada James]

If this is unintentional by this new poster, then I am fearful for her future as a writer as she needs to do much work on her voice and tone, but I apologize. When this person makes an appearance, the number of posts removed from her and others is very telling.

Her future as a writer will be decided upon by her skill as a writer. Her posts here will have nothing to do with it.

Y'know who she reminds me of? A little of me. I hope she stays, I hope she posts to this thread, and I wish her all the success in the world.

If she feels uncomfortable posting her opinions here, feel free to PM me. I promise you an open, honest dialogue about PA. We can trade experiences.

Canada James "Lite"

Coming soon...

the difference between PA's promotion of a new author, and a commercial publishing house's promotion of a new author...

[Aconite]

Uncle Jim mentioned the Usenet *plonk*.

Anybody familiar with *flounce*?

[Richard]

Walk off in a huff?

In other news: ANYTHING. I hear Jamie Farr's going on Hollywood Squares and...

[Jeff]

...how PA gets ultra defensive whenever someone wants to take a look at their record keeping situation re royalties.

Ed, I'm interested and I am a newbie at this so my questions is: When you deal with a reputable publishing co. and you feel there might be a discrepancy between what you sold and what you got paid for, what is the procedure to resolve it? Is there a "common" procedure or is it something that varies by contract? Does it have to involve lawyers and accountants or do they just send you copies of their ledgers or paperwork for your review?

[Medievalist]

(Haven't left yet...)

I agree. But I have to wonder if getting the IRS involved isn't the best way to uncover the truth. Someone needs to get into the "hidden areas" of PA. I'm sure there are a lot of dark things to uncover.

Nancy

Of course, what one really wants to see are not only the "books" at PA but the records of the printers, to match against those PA's records. PA would have to keep very very careful records, distinguishing between royalty-paying book purchases, and how much, and non-paying purchases. I rather doubt that they have the expertise to do that--every thing I've seen of theirs, ranging from books, to "edited" mss. to the web site and e-mail, is exceedingly unprofessional in terms of execution. That kind of information is going to require an attorney, and a judge.

[Savannah Blue]

(Haven't left yet...)

I agree. But I have to wonder if getting the IRS involved isn't the best way to uncover the truth. Someone needs to get into the "hidden areas" of PA. I'm sure there are a lot of dark things to uncover.

Nancy

This would be a good time to remind everyone of the IRS fraud hotline number that Mem has posted about a hundred times. 1-800-829-0922. This may not be the exact same number she has posted, but it will still get the job done.

[Aconite]

Of course, what one really wants to see are not only the "books" at PA but the records of the printers, to match against those PA's records. (snip) That kind of information is going to require an attorney, and a judge.

I suspect it'll be that information that brings them down, eventually.

[Gratian Gasparri]

My first goal was to be published vs self-published. In the writing communities that I frequent self publishing is a major stigma while publishing with PA is not.

Okay, I find this a fair statement. Can I therefore assume that there are others in the writing communities you frequent who have published books with PA?

Assuming this is the case:

1) have you spoken with these authors about their experiences and how many copies they sold through PA?

2) Do you know how many copies PA has sold vs. how many copies each of these authors has sold?

3) Have you read any PA books from these authors? What was your impression?

I hope you don't find these questions too intrusive, but as you pointed out earlier I don't know you or what you are about. So I'm hoping these questions will allow me to get to know you a little better as well as understand where you're coming from as an author.

So far not one store, bookclub, or website I've approached has had any concerns with PA, but each of them first asked if I was self published.

[snip]

But the same places that have agreed to order my book, and publicize my book refused hers.



Here are a few questions that come to mind:

1) Have they actually ordered your book?
2) If yes, do they stock it on their shelves?
3) Do they stock other PA books?

Again, I appreciate you answering these questions since it helps me see things from your perspective. Oh, one other question, if you don't mind, is your business partner a friend or family?

Although my book has not been released yet, it's been available on PA's website for about a month. I have received letters, calls, and emails from family, friends, and complete strangers who have ordered, received, and enjoyed my book.

So the book is available, even though it has not been officially released?
How much does it retail for?
Is this competitive with other books of a similar genre?
How many do you think you sold so far?

Again, thanks for answering these questions. I wish you well as a writer, and will be interested in seeing how things turn out for you. Please keep us informed about how your book does with PA.

PS I just saw your note about your mom. I will add her to my prayer list.

[ResearchGuy]

...The reason is that MANY self publish books are full or ERRORS and don't look professional. They are not regularly available on book shelves and the authors have a difficult time getting them shelved. ...
True. As with many things, self-publishing can be done well and it can be done badly. It can be done professionally and it can be done amateurishly. Those who do it professionally--detailed attention to all normal aspects of publishing, including Library of Congress cataloging, ISBN, business operations, copyright registration, editing, layout & design, printing, binding, distribution, publicity & promotion, and, last but not least, quality content--can and do see their books in bookstores and available through all other standard book industry means. If done well, those books, under a publisher's imprint that happens to be owned and operated by the author, receive appropriate recognition. They come from a small press (see the magazine Foreword for coverage of small presses, or the small publishers' organization SPAN, http://www.spannet.org/) and are received accordingly. Those who do this successfully have studied the leading books on self-publishing by Tom & Marilyn Ross and by Dan Poynter and have spent serious time with the other kinds of resources listed at http://www.norcalpa.org/benefits/links.shtml.

If a self-published book is full of errors, that is the result of faulty work by the author-publisher (careless writing, inadequate editing, lack of proof reading, failure to pore over galleys in advance of publication). That same author will have just as much trouble if his or her book has been badly edited (perhaps being "spell-checked" into a host of astonishing new errors) by a faux publisher like PA.

Some time take a look at the self-published books of Fern Reiss, or look into one year's award winners (2000) named by one organzation of self-publishers/small presses, http://www.sacpublishers.org/awards/2000_awards.shtml. See http://www.bookhandler.com/cole1.html for example.

The latest crop of award-winners for that group include books that are of unarguably high quality. (I was at the annual conference a week ago and saw them.) That is only one regional organization. Sure, this is something that can be done badly. So can pretty much any human activity. But pertinent to this discussion: NO PA title will EVER be generally available in bookstores, purchased widely by libraries, seriously reviewed by the press, or given credence by critics. SOME self-published books (author-owned small press) ARE generally available in bookstores, purchased by libraries, seriously reviewed, and given credence by critics. I know this for a fact because I am in regular contact with people whose business is writing and self-publishing through their own small presses, have heard directly from people prominent in that field, and have bought such books in bookstores.

But self-publishing--that is, doing it right--is a demanding business, as the principal is both author AND business-owner/operator. Doing it well, however, can allow a full-scale trade paperback to be produced for under two dollars a copy, which allows all the room needed for full discounts to the trade (booksellers and distributors) and for acceptance of returns, both critical to distribution in the trade. Oh, and it makes direct sales by the author hugely profitable. Ask Fern Reiss.

--Ken

[M. Story]

Let me just add a quick but hearty "Hurrah!" for the Ignore button. I instituted it last week, and it really does make thread life easier and (personally) more peaceful. Do try it. You really will like it.

Since I'm fairly new here, I didn't know how it worked, but I DO NOW! I like it! http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/emoteThumbs.gif

[Moondancer]

For those of you who are having personal ethical problems using the ignore button:

Those you are ignoring are still speaking so their right to free speech is protected. You are just exercising your right not to listen.

[James D. Macdonald]

Anybody familiar with *flounce*?

I've seen it done a thousand times.

Folks who are new to the 'net -- check out the Usenet Jargon (http://catb.org/%7Eesr/jargon/html/go01.html) file. Read it. Behavior you see today, that may be new to you, was noticed, discussed, and named ten ... fifteen ... twenty years ago.

No need for us to reinvent our own wheels.

================

Regardless of our own plans and opinions, reality will win.

Three of the realities with PA books are:


High cover price
Short discount
Not returnable

[robeiae]

Hmmmm. I guess I would like to think that no one would "assume" we are "loons." I think the regular posters here are intelligent, well-spoken people who may have something important to say.
*cough, hack, wipe with arm* Jees, ire rely aprshate da complee... compla... com *npphhht...picks nose, eats it*... nice thangs yu writ.

Rob

[James D. Macdonald]

When you deal with a reputable publishing co. and you feel there might be a discrepancy between what you sold and what you got paid for, what is the procedure to resolve it?

Generally speaking, and this will depend on your particular contract, you have the right to audit their books. You send your accountant, he or she checks their records. If there's a discrepancy of greater than some defined percentage, the publisher pays for the audit. Else you pay for it.

SFWA has a "random audit program." In the random audit program, every year some SFWA member (who has volunteered to participate) is chosen at random, and one of his or her contracts is chosen at random. The author signs over the right to audit the publisher to SFWA; SFWA pays for the audit.

This keeps everyone honest, and provides a database on who are the shifty publishers.

[Jaws]

Is group arbitration possible if a number of PA authors have the same complaint?
No. Unless an arbitration clause explicitly allows for a class action, it requires that each grievance be arbitrated individually unless both sides agree otherwise (under Maryland law, anyway; other states, and some federal courts, hold differently).

[Gratian Gasparri]

No. Unless an arbitration clause explicitly allows for a class action, it requires that each grievance be arbitrated individually unless both sides agree otherwise.

Thanks Jaws and Dolan (who answered this privately). Much appreciated! If it has to be done individually, I don't see what the point is given that the cost involved.

[M. Story]

Regardless of our own plans and opinions, reality will win.

Three of the realities with PA books are:

High cover price
Short discount
Not returnable
I'd like to add:

Inferior printing of book covers
Poor to nonexistent customer service re: inferior printing of book covers
Unprofessionally edited
I'm sure if I think about it, I can come up with a few more... http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/emoticonidea.gif

Marlene

[ZaZ]

...

And finally, where is my main man ZaZ? I need the kind of literary enlightenment that only he can provide...

Where is ZaZ? An answer, in hungover rhyme:

In a drunken stupor, a post-concert haze
I missed a bunch of PA crap in only two days
The threads jumped by tens
I've got the bends
Now you know what's gone ablaze

Puff, Puff, none for you
Eyes together, it's mucus glue
Some fact, this PA stinks
Ooga booga, on them a jinx
Now pardon me, I need a brew

Saturday smokin' chased with a beer
It's the weekend which I hold dear
Sure I could write
I could even try to think
It just doesn't matter in your own little sphere

[Christine N.]

Her future as a writer will be decided upon by her skill as a writer. Her posts here will have nothing to do with it.

Y'know who she reminds me of? A little of me. I hope she stays, I hope she posts to this thread, and I wish her all the success in the world.

If she feels uncomfortable posting her opinions here, feel free to PM me. I promise you an open, honest dialogue about PA. We can trade experiences.

Canada James "Lite"

Coming soon...

the difference between PA's promotion of a new author, and a commercial publishing house's promotion of a new author...

I agree. She reminds me of me too. I can be just as stubborn when I think I'm right. I have no problem with her at all. If she's enjoying her PA experience so far, well, then, so be it. So are Pierrette, Joyce, Saundra and a number of other people. We don't attack them (although we do cut and past some of the obvious misiformation that they may post for educational purposes) because it's not the objective. The objective is to make PA own up to what they've done to any number of people. To call themselves a vanity press, which is what they really are, mainly because they do no promotion. If they did promote and market books, they would be a publisher (quality issues notwithstanding).

I'm not just talking about the ambiguous moral crimes either. Dolan has a legitmate claim. He can prove how many copies he sold, and can prove that PA has witheld monies owed him. That's ILLEGAL. They continue to sell Diana's book on Amazon, when she owns the rights to it. That's ILLEGAL.

These are the things that will bring the Stooges down.

If, in six months when the next batch of royalty checks come out, Gena wants to change her tune, we will be sympathetic. And if, by some chance, she's still happy, well then, I'll be happy too.

See, I mentioned her name and still talked about PA. It can be done. And I don't think I derailed the thread, did I? Now, I've got some BIC to do. New book to write, you know.


PS Gena - sorry about your mom.

[bluwinteryfox]

Three of the realities with PA books are:


High cover price
Short discount
Not returnable

And one more, if you don't know for a fact who bought your book and the price they paid, you'll never know if your royalties are correct.

[M. Story]

For those of you who are having personal ethical problems using the ignore button:

Those you are ignoring are still speaking so their right to free speech is protected. You are just exercising your right not to listen.

I am aware of this. The ignore button is also, in the words of Martha Stewart, a very "good thing" in certain situations when you're ...http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/Emotedeadhorse.gif ...

Marlene http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/emoteDisappear.gif

[Jeff]

Thanks Uncle Jim. I understand a bit more now than I did. :)

[Memphis Ed]

May I play in the sandbox?

I self-published a book seven years ago which has sold around 10,000 copies (I am a professional speaker and radio talk show host, so I have a platform which is a very large advantage in selling books). It was very tightly edited and professionally designed, but self-published (I created a publishing company) none-the-less.

I have freelanced over 150 articles and columns as well as serving as a columnist for two publications currently. I have acquired an agent who sold my newest proposal to AMACOM Publishing for which I have been paid an advance and am completing my manuscript (non-fiction).

I say all this to let PA authors know that I have been lurking around both boards for nearly one year and this is my first post. Here are some of my conclusions for whatever they might be worth to anyone considering PA versus any other method of publishing:

1) Don't do PA

2) On the food chain, PA is lower than self-publishing. This is especially true if the sales numbers are low, such as less than 1,000 copies sold.

3) If you are going to go to the trouble to market your own book, the self-publishing route is MUCH more profitable. I make $10 every time I sell a book at retail (paperback @ $14.95, which allows me much room for discounts for groups. Example...sold 100 this week to a group I will be addressing next week).

4) A mediocre author with a platform will get an agent and publsiher's ATTENTION easier than a great writer without a platform. Translation: if you can sell books, you can get a deal. It is easier to sell books via Lulu or another firm than PA. Plus more profitalbe. I cringed each time I read of Frank Weaver, the Crab Cake guy, selling a bunch of books and making a couple of bucks on each sale when he could have made ten bucks a pop had he not swallowed the "traditional publishing" garbage.

5) Work hard at your craft. Get some articles sold (or printed) to validate your skills. Work hard to get an agent...this is tough, but certainly not impossible or comparable to winning the lottery as some will suggest. Write while you are dreaming of getting that acceptance from that legitimate agent.

6) Don't do the PA gig.

BTW, I have observed this board for a long time and have developed a lot of admiration for people whom I have never met. I find myself checking both boards (PA and this one) addictively, but love it.

Thanks for putting up with this missive....I'll be briefer in the future.

__________________

[M. Story]

Does anyone know, when a subpoena is issued and auditors go into a place to examine books, if they must give any notice, or do they just knock on the door and enter at will? I'd hate to think that crooks might have a chance to hide the evidence, and produce "fake" records. Just wonderin...

[James D. Macdonald]

I'm sure if I think about it, I can come up with a few more...

Sure. There's dozens of things. I've got some great anecdotal stories of the difficulties bookstores have ordering directly from PA. PA won't actually refuse to sell a book if the stores call them on the phone with a credit card in hand ... but they'll come darned close.

Add in the anecdotal evidence that even if a bookstore does order that book, PA may not report that sale or pay royalties to the author. That's a source of constant complaints.

Now a lot of the time it may be that authors can't believe that they only sold two books in the last six months when they have, in fact, only sold two books in the past six months. But there are too many stories of authors who ordered their own books through bookstores, paid for them, and found that PA listed fewer sold through stores than they could see stacked in their own living rooms.

I already quoted Mike Manno's story. There are others.

This isn't a new scam. (http://www.litrix.com/canterby/cante006.htm)

There was a old miller (http://www.deadlists.com/deadlists/SONGS/THEMILP1.HTM) and he lived all alone,
He had three sons all fully grown,
When the time came to make out his will,
All he had left was a little grist mill.

Singing fol-dig-a-dol fol-dig-a doe

He called to him his eldest son,
Said, Son, oh, son my race is run,
If I a miller of you make,
Tell to me what toll you'd take.

Singing fol-dig-a-dol fol-dig-a doe

Father, oh, father my name is Bill,
Out of each bushel I'd take a gill.
Not enough, not enough, the old man said,
On such a little you'd never get ahead.

Singing fol-dig-a-dol fol-dig-a doe

He called to him his second son,
Said, Son, oh, son my race is run,
If I a miller of you make,
Tell to me what toll you'd take.

Singing fol-dig-a-dol fol-dig-a doe

Father, oh, father my name is Mort,
Out of each bushel I'd take a quart.
Not enough, not enough, the old man said,
On such a little you'd never get ahead.

Singing fol-dig-a-dol fol-dig-a doe

He called to him his youngest son,
Said, Son, oh, son my race is run,
If I a miller of you make,
Tell to me what toll you'd take.

Singing fol-dig-a-dol fol-dig-a doe

Father, oh, father my name is Paul,
Out of each bushel I'd take it all.
I'd take all the meal and swear to the sack
And beat the old farmer if he ever came back.


Singing fol-dig-a-dol fol-dig-a doe

Hallelujah, the old man says,
Here's one of my sons learned to follow my ways,
Glory be God, his old wife cried,
And then he turned up his toes and died.

Singing fol-dig-a-dol fol-dig-a doe

[M. Story]

May I play in the sandbox?

Hi Ed!!! Of course you can play, if you don't kick sand in our faces. Pttooey! http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/Emotewelcome.gif Great post!!! Thanks! I hope you will become a regular here. You sound like you have a lot to offer, although your pic makes you look like you're not feeling well--a little green...just came over from reading the PA Board, did ya? <tease>...

Marlene

[writerjenn]

May I play in the sandbox?

Thanks for putting up with this missive....I'll be briefer in the future.

Welcome Memphis! And thanks for the updates on how things work for you. Very informative.

:popcorn: Passing the popcorn. Just in case you forget to eat while feeding your addiction!


Jenn

[lindylou45]

Dolan,
>>The filing fee is $3,250 for a non-monetary settlement or $750 for a monetary settlement.>>

I don't get it-- why's a non-monetary settlement more expensive? Anyone?

Also, if it's non-binding, what good is it?

This topic interests me greatly because I think it's one of the few tactics no one here has tried, and I'd love to know if it would succeed. I really don't understand what arbitration is all about, though. I thought it was binding... I don't understand the point otherwise.

Who's going to want to spend that much money for something that's not binding? Who's got that kind of money. I don't have any monetary issues that I'm aware of. I didn't hire a PR firm or print up business cards, bookmarks, and posters, etc. I didn't have the money. So if I have to spend $3,250.00 for arbitration, it's not going to happen.

Who wants to bet that is exactly why arbitration is in the contract? :crazy:

[AC Crispin]

Wow, I try to check in on AW once a day, or at least every other day, but I just can't keep up! You folks post too fast.

At least I have the comfort of knowing that if anything truly MAJOR happened, that Jim or Victoria would let me know to come and check it out.

Spring has been very busy for me, with my dad being in the hospital, my new book ARC's coming out, and trying, in between crises, to work on Vol. 2 of my new trilogy.

To those who have volunteered for Phase Two, of THE PROJECT, I still hope to get it in motion this month, but there have been some hold-ups that are not under my control. I am doing everything I can to pull things together on The Project, I assure you. I apologize for this delay. I know you are itching to go. Hang on to your enthusiasm! I am as committed to THE PROJECT and to helping PA authors as ever. It doesn't matter that I'm not a PA author myself. Writer Beware fights for the rights of aspiring writers to be treated with honesty and fairness -- concepts totally alien to the ownership of PublishAmerica, unfortunately.

It's important to remind ourselves, as Uncle Jim has pointed out, that not all authors have the same goals. Most of the people who post here on AW seem to want to establish writing careers, but not all. And for anyone who wants to establish a writing career, I'm afraid that starting with a PA book is a very bad move.

Back when I started out (I've been writing full-time since 1983), there was no internet. It's possible that there were Vantage and Dorrance authors who truly believed that they were establishing careers by "publishing" one or more books with these vanity presses, but I never encountered any. The reason is, Vantage and Dorrance are pretty upfront about what they do, and they do make it clear they aren't a commercial publisher. The same cannot be said of PublishAmerica. "Truth in advertising" is NOT in their lexicon of business ethics or practices.

By the way, has anyone heard any news about HBM? If you don't want him to get publicity by answering on the boards, drop me a line via email.

Thanks!

Hang in there, folks. We have something great going here at AW. Solidarity will see us through.

Best,

-Ann C. Crispin
Writer Beware
www.writerbeware.com (http://www.writerbeware.com/)
Author: STORMS OF DESTINY/HarperEos
www.accrispin.com (http://www.accrispin.com/)

[Dolan]

Do not let PA have your book!

The below e-mail copy is PA's final word that my book was available. It was not available. There was one copy in an Ingram warehouse, if more than one person ordered the book within several days of another person, the book became "unavailable".

In a twisted sense, PA makes a twisted point. My book was "available" to order but if one ordered it, one could not get it because the retailer would advise one that the book is "not available". Logic of the damned, I think. No one could buy the crappy book! That was the bottom line. And if anyone understands PA's logic, you need some of my meds.

Sent: Monday, January 31, 2005 2:24 PM
Subject: Phillip R. Dolan: availability misinformation


> Dear Mr. Dolan,
>
> >>PA agreed that my book would be "available".
>
> That is true, PublishAmerica has made your book available to whatever
> wholesalers, distributors, and bookstores choose to order or to stock it.
> The fact that one of them may have made an error does not negate this at all.
>
> Also, it appears that we misspoke. The problem, as you have documented it
> below, has to do not with "our" distributor, but with Barnes and Noble's
> distributor. We have no problem ordering your book through our distributor
> at all.
>
> Unfortunately, whomever is giving you this information is sadly mistaken.
> There are no problems with your book's availability at all. Your book is
> available by the thousands. Your book is completely available through
> Ingram, the world's largest book distributor, to literally all bookstores
> from coast to coast, and beyond. A stock check done just now on Ingram's
> computer system shows that your book, A Handsome Guy:... , is in stock at
> Ingram. In fact, Ingram, at this moment, has physical copies of your book
> in stock, and sitting on a shelf in a warehouse in Tennessee. Additionally,
> Ingram indicates that copies of your book have previously been sold through
> Ingram.
>
> All managers of all bookstores can see this same screen and know how to
> order from Ingram, but if you have encountered someone who doesn't, you
> should know that all managers of all bookstores know that they may also
> place their orders directly with PublishAmerica.
>
> There really is no problem with ordering your book. There are no
> cancellations, no delays, and no problems of any kind. Your book may be
> ordered in any quantity.
>
> Please go back to the bookstore and tell the manager that whatever
> "frustration" they are having may be alleviated by simply ordering the book
> from Ingram, even if Ingram's screen is wrong. Your book is in stock at
> Ingram, and they may simply order it in quantities of ones or tens of
> thousands. If you still have trouble, please let us know.
>
> Thank you,
> Author Support Team
> support@publishamerica.com (support@publishamerica.com)



>
> From: "Phil Dolan"
> To: "Shawn" <shawn@publishamerica.com (shawn@publishamerica.com)>
> Subject: Re: Phillip R. Dolan: Ordering Information
> Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 15:56:03 -0600
>
> Shawn:
>
> My contract is with PA, not Ingram. PA agreed that my book would be
> "available". Your distributor's problems can not be addressed by me. I
> have no standing with them, neither can I force stores as to where and how
> to buy books!
>
> I worked up a marketing plan that I advised you about. It included
> spending nearly $20,000 on a nation-wide advertising campaign. I've
> cancelled all of the ads that were to appear after February but I'm still
> out $7,000 that I spent before finding out that people were having such a
> difficult time buying the book. Many times their orders were cancelled, as
> you know. I went forward spending $7,000 on ads based on PA's contractual
> obligation to make A Handsome Guy available to customers.
>
> PA has failed me and I want to terminate our contract, effective, April 1,
> 2005. This would be a good date because I have an ad coming out February
> 2, in World War II Magazine. Those readers will have a chance to buy the
> book from PA's distributor even though very few will be able to get it.
>
> Please advise ASAP about the termination date.
>
> Phillip R. Dolan
>
>

[JennaGlatzer]

Guys, I give up. And now, yes, I am pissed. I feel extremely disrespected that just about no one did what I asked (four times), which was to MOVE ON and stop talking about Gena. I'm not saying that to "protect" her or to "stifle" you, just to get back on track! If people had been able to do that, there would have been NO NEED for further messages about my "letting this continue." I'm not letting anything continue! Every moment I'm awake I'm monitoring and trying to get the discussion back on track! What's so difficult about this?? I shouldn't have to delete anything-- I'm not the one who let anything continue-- your fellow posters did, by bringing it up again and again after I begged you to let it all drop. I am going to ban her for the last nastygram, but it should never have come to that.

[DreamWeaver]

Does anyone know, when a subpoena is issued and auditors go into a place to examine books, if they must give any notice, or do they just knock on the door and enter at will? I'd hate to think that crooks might have a chance to hide the evidence, and produce "fake" records. Just wonderin...

I don't know that, but I AM pretty sure one of the things auditors are looking for is "cooked books". To cook the books (make a second set of fake books) in a way that will fool an in-depth audit is a pretty detailed task that requires a talented (as well as unethical) accountant. Is there ANYTHING we've seen coming from the offices of PA that would lead us to believe they are shelling out money for a really good accountant, or that any or them are likely to have talent as an accountant?

I didn't think so. http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

I am SO betting if a good accountant gets a look at those books (if they even keep books) that their *ss will be grass.

Kris

[lindylou45]

The trick is that how many of those have hard, undisputable proof that the books sold? I'm sure there are many who have, or can find, proof (especially those who have had their books sold after the books' rights returned to them), but doubtful they reach into the thousands.

And $62.37 multiplied by a thousand authors is only $62,370. Compared to how much they rake in, a mere drop in the bucket. So, one has to believe the only reason they fight the author who has proof so much is because they are vain, spiteful, and overall evil people.

$62,000.00 sent Martha Stewart to jail. That's all the stock that was sold made her.

If PublishAmerica's principals are as greedy as I think they are, they're going to want to get every possible penny. We'll see how much it takes to send them to Camp Cupcake.

[SeanDSchaffer]

I resisted for several hours, but after having been suckered into a couple of posts I probably shouldn't have made, I invested in a trip to the CP and used the Ignore feature. http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif It made a huge difference...it's much easier not to let yourself be baited when the bait is invisible. I've never done that before, but I'm glad I did. YMMV, as always!

Kris


I had a couple of my posts deleted, (thank the Lord,) because they were quite a bit confrontational for my own taste -- and obviously for the moderators' tastes. I haven't gone to the Ignore feature concerning the 'troubling individual,' and I might decide not to anyway, but at least I know it's there if it must be used.

I just hope the moderators -- and the rest of you guys -- aren't extremely mad at me right now. I hold a high respect for all of you, and to have people highly angry at me has always been somewhat scary to me.

[Sher2]

May I play in the sandbox?
6) Don't do the PA gig.

BTW, I have observed this board for a long time and have developed a lot of admiration for people whom I have never met. I find myself checking both boards (PA and this one) addictively, but love it.


Hi, Memphis. :welcome: aboard. We try to play nice but sometimes a little sand gets kicked up. Nobody bites, though. Not hard, anyway. And we've all had our shots. ;)

[MacAllister]

I just hope the moderators -- and the rest of you guys -- aren't extremely mad at me right now. I hold a high respect for all of you, and to have people highly angry at me has always been somewhat scary to me.

Sean, I don't think anyone is angry with you personally. The whole situation is just really frustrating. I feel like Gena was out of line, yes--but she was also baited into getting herself banned.

Which means she is cut off from a place that eventually might have helped her.

And she did start a valuable and interesting thread elsewhere.

And also, it makes AW look little better than PA, for banning users with differing points of view. I can't speak for Jenna, or any of the other mods; but I freaking HATE deleting posts.

So the whole situation is a damn shame, and was completely avoidable and unnecessary.

[priceless1]

From PA:
You should know that information concerning who bought your books will
not be provided. Such information is not recorded at all by anyone,
including bookstores, and we therefore are not, and could not, be given
this information. As for purchases made directly through
PublishAmerica, we list the quantities, but we do not have the
information to divulge who made the purchases. No book publisher is
capable of doing that.
I'd like to jump in here and clarify something, if I may. First off, all publishers maintain a record of all orders, whether they are by individuals, or by bookstores. To state that publishers are incapable of divulging records of individual orders due to an inability to maintain those records is false, false, false. The operative word isn't whether they can, but whether they are willing.

I have personal proof that PA does, indeed, keep records of individual sales.

[lindylou45]

May I play in the sandbox?

I self-published a book seven years ago which has sold around 10,000 copies (I am a professional speaker and radio talk show host, so I have a platform which is a very large advantage in selling books). It was very tightly edited and professionally designed, but self-published (I created a publishing company) none-the-less.

__________________

:welcome: Memphis Ed. Your points are very well taken and congratulations on your success. :Trophy:

[Literary Lola]

I am concerned with what has been going on here for the last few days. I certainly have nothing but respect and admiration for Jenna, and it's her site to do with as she will. But it seems to me that the attitude expressed by one new poster has been entirely confrontational and frankly appears to me to be a fairly plausible attempt to derail this thread. If this is unintentional by this new poster, then I am fearful for her future as a writer as she needs to do much work on her voice and tone, but I apologize. When this person makes an appearance, the number of posts removed from her and others is very telling. This person is exceptionally disruptive, and plain-old rubs me the wrong way. I would be interested, however, in hearing all the good things that PA has done for her.

If this nonsense is allowed to continue this thread will fail...I find myself less interested in posting here the more this continues...just my opinion.

If PA wants to shut this thread down, it seems they only have to send some of their authors here to degenerate this thread to their level.

diana
Yes, Diana, I agree. I won't be back.

[SeanDSchaffer]

May I play in the sandbox?


Sure, come and join us! The water... er, sand... is fine.

:welcome:

[JennaGlatzer]

Great, Lola, thanks so much. I'm glad you all agree that I let the nonsense continue and that no one's going to notice that I DID NOT. I'm glad no one reads a thing I write, ignores my requests, and continues posting freely, then kicks me in the teeth on the way out.

I try my damnedest to give everyone a fair shot around here, and time to settle in when they're coming in with high emotions. More than a day or two.

To stop *myself* from responding further in furiousness, I'm now walking away from the computer to go contemplate why I bother.

[Gratian Gasparri]

To stop *myself* from responding further in furiousness, I'm now walking away from the computer to go contemplate why I bother.

Jenna, while only you and God know what goes through your mind, if I had to venture a guess, I would say you bother because you care -- both for your fellow authors and for the craft of writing.

If occasionally we begin to take your hospitality on this board for granted, it is because you do such a good job at making each new poster feel both welcome and comfortable. :)

[AC Crispin]

Dear Jenna:

I'm sorry if it was my post that triggered your frustration. I post so seldom. I confess that I posted what I did without getting completely "caught up" with the board. Thus I missed your your plea to let the subject drop.

I should have been more careful and read further before hitting the "post reply" button.

My apologies,

-Ann C. Crispin

[ZaZ]

I love the vehemence! Jenna, you should blast more people.

For the record, I ignored the whole thing without having to use the ignore function. I might have made one crack but that was pages and days ago and it was funny, earning me numerous congratulatory green blob comments.

In fact, I completely agreed each of the times I saw poor Jenna beg and beg you drama queens to cease and desist. It's sad, really.

I mean, take me for instance. Sure, I get out of hand every now and then and hardly ever post anything to this thread besides some borderline juvenile humor with a hint of possibly being more high-brow than it appears but I know when and where. There are times when I'll let 20 pages just whiz on by as I don't have to read every page and half the time really have nothing to say.

I've even been known to do other things on the site that have been exhibited back in my face as annoying, childish and just downright rude.

The difference.

I'll stop immediately, especially when Jenna asks.

When her "I'm next to Celine Dion" smile pops into ZaZ'z PM land, it's always a shame that it's usually, "Zaz, you're a swell fella and all, but really, you've got to stop sending nastygram PMs to people who don't deserve them."

So, in honor of Jenna's latest outburst and a wagging finger in the face of nothing, I'm going to go golfing now.

Ta-Tah knuckleheads.
ZaZ

[reph]

I feel extremely disrespected that just about no one did what I asked (four times), which was to MOVE ON and stop talking about Gena....If people had been able to do that, there would have been NO NEED for further messages about my "letting this continue."
Jenna, far from dissing you, very far from dissing you, I thought I was helping. G___ re-entered the thread after being told not to. I posted a suggestion that people not encourage further posts from her by asking her anything. I thought that was a constructive thing to say. It was deleted anyway.

[bluwinteryfox]

Jenna, I'm sorry that you feel like nobody listens to you or that they don't care. Please don't shut down this thread or the board. I've just become confident in myself, because of this tread and how nice Ed has been to me, that I've actually ventured to two other threads. I've actually posted two covers to the Atlanta Nighs Fake Cover comp http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10733

You're allowing this board to continue has been a big help to me, :thankyou: not only with my writing, but my meeting people and think I can do something.

We do love and care about you. :LilLove: :heart:

[reph]

*cough, hack, wipe with arm* Jees, ire rely aprshate da complee... compla... com *npphhht...picks nose, eats it*... nice thangs yu writ.

Rob
That's a hard act to follow, Rob. I have an idea, but I'm shelving it. Nobody wants to hear about the use of earwax as a condiment.

[Memphis Ed]

A couple of interesting tidbits from PA land:

1) A couple of references by PA board readers of 7 million hits a day. I don't know where this came from, but if they are getting that number (which they are not), then it is a shame that they can't get more than.......

2) about fifteen to post on the support PA thread. Take a look at who is posting and it's all newbies. Where are the vets on that post? Where's Crab Cake, the dead guy reincarnate, etc? It's all the new ones. This is who PA feeds on and why I am so irritated with them. The dreams of writers are NOT TO BE MESSED WITH. Every book, article, column, or poem began with a dream and they are squashing a lot of them.

3) I am worried about the Crab guy, Frank Weaver, with the hat. He seeemed to have a dream and vision and he has disappeared since around royalty time. Changling, didn't you keep up with him. Is he okay?

[Literary Lola]

Great, Lola, thanks so much. I'm glad you all agree that I let the nonsense continue and that no one's going to notice that I DID NOT. I'm glad no one reads a thing I write, ignores my requests, and continues posting freely, then kicks me in the teeth on the way out.
Jenna, I'm afraid my single sentence failed to explain what's in my heart. I find no fault with you or with this board whatsoever. You are an amazing woman who has taken on the Herculean task of being Den Mother, Bearer of the Golden Whip, and Chief Bottle Washer. Insulting you or your conduct couldn't be further from my mind. Your warnings of shaping up didn't fall on deaf ears at all. This isn't about you, or the PA thread.

What I'd like to say is that the whole affair just left a bad taste in my mouth because I could see everyone's teeth bared. It became a wake-up call to me that it's time to move on. I'm no longer associated with PA and, let's face it, I didn't contribute a damn thing other than comic relief. No one needs that. This is a board geared toward exposing a scam-ridden company. It's no longer my fight, and there are others far more capable than I to carry on the torch of warning off innocent authors.

I'm sorry if my perceived bitterness upset you. I'm not in the least bit bitter or angry. It's just time for me to attend to what I do best. I'll always consider you and this thread as one of the greats.

[MMo]

I don't know that, but I AM pretty sure one of the things auditors are looking for is "cooked books". To cook the books (make a second set of fake books) in a way that will fool an in-depth audit is a pretty detailed task that requires a talented (as well as unethical) accountant.

*SNIPPED*

I am SO betting if a good accountant gets a look at those books (if they even keep books) that their *ss will be grass.

Kris

Dunno about Maryland, but here's the opening paragraph from a letter my CPA wrote to our state tax commission when we discovered errors in the paperwork made by the attorney for my late mother's estate:

"Gentlemen: Enclosed is an amended estate tax return. Professional standards require the correction of major errors."

The rest of the letter really doesn't apply to this discussion, but I thought the opening uniquely on-topic.

Mo

[Jeff]

From a new author in PublishAmerica land:

"In a few years time tradional bookstores will be dead by not being able to stock 'on shelf ' all the books available in the world. POD is the future, and friendly. STOP trying to get your books in stores, and promote the web. IT IS the future for us all!!!

Oh my... goodness. :Shrug:

Ah well.

On a more important topic:

IT'S MY BIRTHDAY!! :partyguy:

So everyone blow out my candles and grab a noisemaker and enjoy yourselves. I have chocolate cake and ice cream and we can play "Pin-the-tail-on-the-Stooge and lets have everyone celebrate me turning 29...

...again.

[Julian Black]

On a more important topic:

IT'S MY BIRTHDAY!! :partyguy: Happy birthday, Jeff!

[Dolan]

Happy Birthday, Jeff.

Gee, I didn't know there still people around that young.

Old Guy,
Phil

[Christine N.]

Jenna,

:LilLove: :flag: :flag: :Hug2: :Hug2: :kiss:

You have certainly tried your best. I don't think that mentioning a name should be cause for alarm. I thought that we could conduct an intelligent debate. Sigh. But personalities clashed, and it just didn't work. I think some people had good points, but it was all lost in the shuffle.

Sorry. If you thought I wasn't being goo, well, I'll be good now.

We LOVE YOU!

Oops. that's supposed to be good, not goo. Heck, maybe I'm not goo. That would be stipid, wouldn't it?

[M. Story]

A couple of interesting tidbits from PA land:

........2) about fifteen to post on the support PA thread. Take a look at who is posting and it's all newbies. Where are the vets on that post? Where's Crab Cake, the dead guy reincarnate, etc? It's all the new ones. This is who PA feeds on and why I am so irritated with them. The dreams of writers are NOT TO BE MESSED WITH. Every book, article, column, or poem began with a dream and they are squashing a lot of them.

I agree with you. Most of those who boast of loyalty to PA are newbies. Many of the others who stay there have no literary aspirations beyond PA and are perfectly content. PA works for them, and even if they feel as we do, they don't want to publicly rock the boat.

I found PA to be one of the most unprofessional businesses that I have ever encountered. I have worked for top notch companies, so I know what I'm talking about. You get the sense the office is run by a bunch of high school dropouts with no basic office skills. The letters from them that others have shared are laughable. "Don't take that tone" with me is not usually used in business correspondence. http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif

RE: Frank Weaver, Jr.; I do hope he is okay. I always enjoyed his posts on the PAMB. He was one of the few highlights there.

One more thing: I'm glad you're jumping in here and getting your feet wet.
Marlene http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/EmoteSun.gif

[Sparhawk]

Dear Jenna,

Another apology on top of many doesn't help when you feel you've been hurt or disrespected. Feelings on this board are strong regarding the topic in question (PA), it is difficult when attacked upon this subject to simply play nice and not throw bombs back. This, unfortunately, does not excuse poor behavior but only serves to partailly and imperfectly explain it. In the short time that I have been here I have grown to respect and admire you and so many other people that post here. I am privelaged to count myself among such a fine caliber of writers and authors.

I hope that we can all move past the current unpleasantness and learn from it. I hope that everybody has a good day and enjoys the rest of their weekend. I have a three year old daughter who's getting ready to dump apple juice on my keyboard if she's not taken to the park. :LilLove: to all.

Very Respectfully,

-Sparhawk aka Gherkin the Cabana Boy

[Sassenach]

I have to say that I'm flabbergasted at LiteraryLola and Diana's responses.

Jenna...my apologies if I did anything to fan the Gena flames. I've tried to be as straight with her as possible.

[M. Story]

On a more important topic:

IT'S MY BIRTHDAY!! http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/Emotepartyguy.gif So everyone blow out my candles and grab a noisemaker and enjoy yourselves. I have chocolate cake and ice cream and we can play "Pin-the-tail-on-the-Stooge and lets have everyone celebrate me turning 29......again.

HAPPY BIRD-DAY 2 EWEEEEEE, HAPPY BIRD-DAY 2 EWWWEE, HAPPY BIRD-DAY, DEAR JEFF, HAPPEEEE BIRD-DAY 2 EWWWWWEEE! Time to blow out the candles, Jeffie Poo, and I mean to huff & puff, not use an AK-47 to blow dem awayyyy. http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/EmoteCake.gif http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/emotePartySmiley.gif


Party time--line forms here for the chicken dance; okay, not the chicken dance, uhhh, the bunny hop....never mind....we're dancin' to "Y M C A"...
It's fun to stay at the Y M C A............ they got everything you were made to enjoy, you can make it nanananananan............
=========>>>>>>> http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/emoteTheWave.gif


HAVE A BEYOOTEEFUL BIRD-DAY, JEFF!!! HAPPY 45th to ya!

[Christine N.]

The heart bleeds...

Had an agent. Got into ten of the biggest publishing houses in the world. They sent me two pages of format corrections to make, change chapter one with chapter two, edit suggestions...actually used excerpts from my book, Gift of the Ancient Grove, to demonstrate how they would like to see it written, praised my character development and imagery…then ended the letters with… “You are, unfortunately, an unknown author who has written a trilogy…because Harry Potter has hit the circuit, we are only dealing with ‘known authors’ at this time. Please make the corrections we have suggested and try re-submitting in 4 or 5 years…ride the Potter wave out.”

PA…Simple contract (Lord help those poor souls that can’t read at a 5th grade level.) NO money from my pocket. Delivered as promised. NO pressure to do anything. They promised me that ‘I’ would be responsible for the marketing of my books. Dang it! They lived up to that promise. I go every day to the mailbox hoping to find a million dollars and a letter from PA stating that they have decided to break their contract and aggressively promote Gift of the Ancient Grove.

I leave my mail box with shattered dreams….sigh!

PLUG ON FELLOW PA AUTHORS!


I wanted to snip this, but I just couldn't find a good place. He had honest crits and praise from real publishers, and chucked it out the window.

In that four or five year waiting period, he could have written two (maybe three) more books, sent them to his agent and had them published. Made a name for himself while his first ms. aged nicely. If he was wildly successful, those publishers wouldn't have cared about HP before publishing this book.

A little patience was all it would have taken. Sigh. Instead he's stuck with PA.

[Dolan]

Jenna, come home. Pretty please.

[lindylou45]

IT'S MY BIRTHDAY!! :partyguy:

So everyone blow out my candles and grab a noisemaker and enjoy yourselves. I have chocolate cake and ice cream and we can play "Pin-the-tail-on-the-Stooge and lets have everyone celebrate me turning 29...

...again.

Happy Birthday, Jeff!!! :Cake:

I'd bake you a cake, but trust me, you wouldn't like it.

[lindylou45]

You get the sense the office is run by a bunch of high school dropouts with no basic office skills.

Nope, they're all recent college graduates. Most of them having majored in English -- I kid you not!

[M. Story]

Nope, they're all recent college graduates. Most of them having majored in English -- I kid you not!

You have GOT to be kidding!! :faint:

Did they get their kollej certifakuts from reputable collejes or tru da male?

[James D. Macdonald]

"STOP trying to get your books in stores, and promote the web. IT IS the future for us all!!!"

Calls to mind a line from one of my favorite movies:

"You just keep thinking, Butch. That's what you're good at."

I just shake my head in amazement. I remember a prediction from another enthusiast a while back: "Within two years 90% of all fiction will be sold as electronic books." That was seven years ago the guy said it, and ... well, hasn't happened.

Look at the market as it is, today.

And if that future comes and the web is the source of all books, who do you think will be selling them? The people who are selective about what they acquire, who edit what they acquire, and who market their products at a reasonable price.

Meanwhile, those young ladies who staff the PA office: In most cases, where I've been able to chase down their majors, they weren't English majors. They have degrees in things like Graphic Arts. Nothing dealing with writing and selling words.

[AC Crispin]

Jenna, I have edited my post to remove the offending material.

If you would rather the entire post was removed, I'll be happy to do that, just say the word.

Best,

-Ann C. Crispin

[PVish]

Some PA authors are so proud that they didn't have to pay to be published. I confess that I am a POD author! Yes, I--ack! gasp!--paid to be published. Let's do a bit of math, shall we?

When I hired the POD publisher to do my latest book, I negotiated the set-up fee down to $399. (I've used this POD twice before--never lost money and have always been treated decently and professionally!) I will buy 250 copies of my book which should last me for the 6 appearances/speaking engagements I know that I'll make in the next 4 months. If I need more books later on, my discount is 60% of retail and I get them within 5 days.

My book will retail for $10.95, and I get a 50% discount on my first order. That's why I order so many at once. I figure this book--which has a very limited, regional appeal--will max out at 500 copies sold. A few local gift stores and two local bookstores will order copies from the publisher because they know me, my books have sold with them before, and I'll be available should they want me to do a signing.

Now, multiply 250 by $5.47 and you get $1,367.50. Add that to the set-up fee and to the $30 I pay to register my copyright. I'm now out $1,796.50 Gee, compared to what PA offers, it looks like I'm getting a lousy deal. PA authors got a dollar up-front, don't have to pay a set-up fee, and only have to send in that $30 for the copyright. Hmmmm.

However, if my book had been done by PA, it would retail for at least $16.95 (and maybe even $19.95). The 250 copies would cost me (at the special 50% discount) $2,117.50 plus the $30 minus the dollar for a total of $2,146.50.

This puts me ahead by $350, but I forgot to include the 10% royalty I'll get for my own order. Now, I'm $404.90 ahead. Oh, and if I order at least 20 copies from my POD, I don't have to pay shipping. How much do PA authors pay for 250 books? I don't know? Anyhow, I'm still ahead.

Ah, but since PA books will sell for more, I'd make more profit if I'd gone with PA, right? Nope. My readers tend to be older people on a fixed income.
They wouldn't pay $16.95 for a paperback. I'd be stuck with a pile of books I'd have to sell for $10.95 to get rid of them.

POD works best for an author who already has an established readership and who will sell at least 200 but less than 1,000 copies. If I thought I'd sell over a thousand, I'd self-publish. (I've self-published once before, and I did sell over a thousand.)

PA authors, unless you only want your two author copies and maybe a couple more for your family, you would have come out ahead to go with an honest POD that does what it says it will do, prices books reasonably, has a toll-free number (answered by a real live person who is polite), and sends a royalty statement every month. You are indeed paying a set-up fee, but yours is attached to every book.

Do the math.

PVish

[Aconite]

He had honest crits and praise from real publishers, and chucked it out the window.

He also had an agent, who, if legit, should have steered him away from this bad career move.

That's really sad. I would have liked to see his book well produced and marketed. I'm always on the lookout for good YA fantasy.

[Sassenach]

All books will be ebooks once we achieve the 'paperless office.' [Wasn't that supposed to happen about 10 years ago??]

[Aconite]

All books will be ebooks once were achieve the 'paperless office.'

And when those of us who read in the bathtub feel comfortable taking an electronic device into a big pool of water.

[robeiae]

"STOP trying to get your books in stores, and promote the web. IT IS the future for us all!!!"

Funny, I thought of:

"Come on guys, it's all ball bearings these days...maybe you need a refresher course!"

Imagine if all books really were ordered through the internet, along with all other non-perishable consumer goods (the logical consequence of this line of thinking). What would this do to the mail system? There would be UPS, Fedex, and USPS trucks all over the place...hmmm, excuse me, I need to go buy some stocks...

Rob

[Sher2]

IT'S MY BIRTHDAY!! :partyguy:

So everyone blow out my candles and grab a noisemaker and enjoy yourselves. I have chocolate cake and ice cream and we can play "Pin-the-tail-on-the-Stooge and lets have everyone celebrate me turning 29...

...again.
HAPPY BIRTHDAY, Jeff! :Cake:

[Sher2]

The heart bleeds...



I wanted to snip this, but I just couldn't find a good place. He had honest crits and praise from real publishers, and chucked it out the window.

In that four or five year waiting period, he could have written two (maybe three) more books, sent them to his agent and had them published. Made a name for himself while his first ms. aged nicely. If he was wildly successful, those publishers wouldn't have cared about HP before publishing this book.

A little patience was all it would have taken. Sigh. Instead he's stuck with PA.
We need an emoticon that conveys *&$%#@&*^%#@*^%!!!!! That's horrible! I'm going to go take a nap and pull the pillow over my head. *$%*#$@!!!

[SeanDSchaffer]

IT'S MY BIRTHDAY!! :partyguy:

So everyone blow out my candles and grab a noisemaker and enjoy yourselves. I have chocolate cake and ice cream and we can play "Pin-the-tail-on-the-Stooge and lets have everyone celebrate me turning 29...

...again.


Right on, Jeff! Happy Birthday to you.

:Cake:

[realitychuck]

I've been away and finally caught up.

For those who think the Internet is the future of books: the Internet has been around for over ten years. During that time, how many books have you purchased online? How many have you purchased in electronic format?

Now, how many have you purchased in a brick and mortar retail outlook?

I'm betting 90% came from bookstores, etc. And if you're not buying many books from the Internet, what makes you think many others are?

[James D. Macdonald]

Oh, and if I order at least 20 copies from my POD, I don't have to pay shipping. How much do PA authors pay for 250 books?

$127.50

Please notice that this isn't the anti-self-publishing thread, or even the anti-vanity-publishing thread. It's the anti-false-advertising-and-abusive-business thread.

We've frequently mentioned the speaker who sells his/her own books from the back of the hall as an ideal self-published author.

[MacAllister]

how many books have you purchased online? How many have you purchased in electronic format?


Err...maybe three? And usually as gifts for someone who lives a distance away, books being my preferred "thank you" "happy birthday" or just "chin up" present.

Now, how many have you purchased in a brick and mortar retail outlook?

rather more than I'm comfortable admitting, right at tax time...

[mdin]

Do you think this is a case of an editor changing the wording, or do you think PA actually changed the press release? I'm thinking the former.

http://press.namct.com/content/view/645/56/

Although it will ring especially poignant with other parents of special-needs children

I'm thinking the release didn't change, and this is just an interpretation of "It will quickly resonate with an audience." Either that, or the author tweaked the release herself since it would've come out over a year ago.

[Aconite]

$127.50

Just to be really clear here: that's the amount they pay in shipping on 250 books, right? So that's $127.50 in addition to the price of the books themselves.

[James D. Macdonald]

Just to be really clear here: that's the amount they pay in shipping on 250 books, right? So that's $127.50 in addition to the price of the books themselves.

Yes, that's the S&H price for 250 books. Yeah, that's in addition to the price of the books.

PA charges $3.00 for the first book, plus $0.50 for each addtional book.

[SeanDSchaffer]

I've been away and finally caught up.

For those who think the Internet is the future of books: the Internet has been around for over ten years. During that time, how many books have you purchased online? How many have you purchased in electronic format?

Now, how many have you purchased in a brick and mortar retail outlook?

I'm betting 90% came from bookstores, etc. And if you're not buying many books from the Internet, what makes you think many others are?


In the five years I personally have been accessing the Internet, I have bought one book on the Internet: my own (although I did buy more than one copy of it) from PA directly.

I have never purchased a book in electronic format. Until a few months ago, I did not know there was such a thing as an e-book.

On the other hand, I have a rather large number of books in my apartment, the majority of which I bought in brick-and-mortar stores over a period of the last twenty to 25 years.

I know of very few other people who buy from the Internet unless they have no other choice in the matter. They simply do not want to wait a month (Or possibly more, since we're talking about PA) to receive them, or to have to pay the price of the book along with the shipping and handling, which for a PA book, if I understand correctly, can be rather high.

Besides all that, there is the issue of reading an e-book from the computer in an office chair, compared to reading a hard-copy book from the relative comfort of my recliner. I would much rather be found reading a book in the latter situation.

[ResearchGuy]

...the Internet has been around for over ten years. During that time, how many books have you purchased online? How many have you purchased in electronic format?

Now, how many have you purchased in a brick and mortar retail outlook?

Online? Hundreds, I would venture. I have a very long rapsheet with Amazon. Some years it has been a thousand dollars or more in book purchases from Amazon. In bookstores? Dunno. Many. Perhaps as many, perhaps more. By mail (book clubs and the like), hundreds, probably. Electronic downloads? One that I recall. If I want it RIGHT NOW I go to Barnes & Noble a couple of miles away, esp. if it is a deeply discounted bestseller. If I can wait a few days, then I order from Amazon. I hate to pay full retail for any book, and can usually do better online than my 10% discount from B&N ("Reader's Advantage" card, or whatever they call it). The impulse buys usually come from B&N or Costco (killer prices on the books they have, but mostly bestsellers or hit-or-miss specials). Bought a fat book on publishers and agents today at B&N (not planned when I went in, but one I had already thought about buying), one book on novel writing that was flat-out impulse, and Stephen King's book on writing (partly impulse, partly result of a recently read recommendation; mass market paperback edition).

More than you wanted to know.

--Ken

[Richard]

All books will be ebooks once were achieve the 'paperless office.'

Speaking as someone who does have a few eBooks on his PDA, is pretty into his technology...

...I would rather be suddenly struck illiterate than be condemned to read from that damn thing, or an Adobe PDF file, for all eternity. Call me when the technology doesn't suck, and when people can say 'It doesn't suck' rather than talking about the move from hand-crafted to mass-produced bibles, and we'll talk.

[Uncarved]

If I want it RIGHT NOW I go to Barnes & Noble a couple of miles away, esp. if it is a deeply discounted bestseller. If I can wait a few days, then I order from Amazon. I hate to pay full retail for any book, and can usually do better online than my 10% discount from B&N ("Reader's Advantage" card, or whatever they call it).
--Ken


I got a job once at B&N just for the employee discount, the free advance copies, and the stripped paperbacks. It was a book lovers orgy there.

edited to ad: We also could check out books as if it were a library so I could read all the best sellers, then put it back on the shelf so you could buy it;)

[Memphis Ed]

About a two years ago, I put together an e-book to sell on the Internet. It dealt with how to develop a successful professional speaking career and I sold it via Google Ad words.

It did okay, especially considering that once the book is published on-line and the merchant account is set up, you don't have to do anything to fulfill the order (which is pretty nice). I probably sold around 500 copies and considering the price of the Ad words, made some walking money.

My point is not at all about any success of the book, but more of the impressions of my readers. I invited questions via e-mail and was surprised at the comments which had to do with the e-book process itself, such as the number of readers which were printing the book (around 120 pages), readers who would order the e-book and then call wanting the hard copy version that they thought they bought, and those who would call WEEKS later and couldn't figure out how to download their purchase. I was also amazed at how many calls I got wanting to know what was in the book before they bought it, which is what is gained by a customer having the ability to browse in a bookstore. There is something to be said of the "feel" of a book in your hands, don't you think?

My personal experience is to buy e-books for infomation and read about 15% of the book, gleaming the info I wanted and dissing the rest. I would never read a novel as an e-book.

[Medievalist]

Do you think this is a case of an editor changing the wording, or do you think PA actually changed the press release? I'm thinking the former.

http://press.namct.com/content/view/645/56/



I'm thinking the release didn't change, and this is just an interpretation of "It will quickly resonate with an audience." Either that, or the author tweaked the release herself since it would've come out over a year ago.

Gah. I think that's an author trying to fix the "resonate with an audience," and possibly coming up with an unusual phrase. That's an adjective ("poignant") being used in a very odd fashion--I suspect the writer was thinking "poignant ring" and couldn't quite marshal the forces of syntax required. Possibly someone was aware of the template and merge approach favored by PA and was attempting corrective measures.

I'm beginning to recognize a few very distinct voices in PA prose; one who is not a native speaker of English, and who wants verbs at the ends of clauses, one who uses a thesaurus in very odd fashions, and one who has some training in the art of marketing-as-come-on.

[Ed Williams]

....and all you-know-what breaks loose! Sorry that it hasn't seemed to be a very good day today.

Jenna, for what it's worth, I go through about 2-3 bouts a week (most weeks) of "why am I doing this?" I go through them, kick myself a time or two, and then I'll get an email from some writer who is grateful for the thread, or someone thanks me who got saved from those limp dicks up in Fredrick and it kicks me back up a notch. I hope you'll hang with it, I know your heart is in the fight, and I know this much - if we walk away, and then find PA picks back up, or starts abusing people even worse, then we'll never forget or forgive ourselves.

Folks, one thing needs to be said - Jenna is super kind to all of us, and gives us a very wide berth re what we say and do. We should thank her for that much more often than we do. If sometimes she asks us to do something, we ought to take it seriously and do it, if for no other reason than out of respect to her. She has always treated me incredibly kindly, and personally, I'm very indebted to her for the chance to learn about writing here. And I intend to do just that if she keeps these boards going.

************************************************** ********

P.S. Just for the record, I have just consumed:

A hamdog, God it was great!

Part of a Luther burger!

A fried twinkie!

And on the way home, stopped by a Dairy Queen for a large, Butterfinger blizzard. Wanna know how I feel? Great! And then some! I am going to write a column about my culinary experiences in the next few days, and will post it on the "Take It Outside Board."

P.S.S "Memphis Ed," welcome! Anybody that has the words "Memphis" and "Ed" in their name is already a good friend of mine...

[Uncarved]

MMmmmmmmm thems sum good ole eats boy.

fried twinkies.... *salivates*

[Dolan]

Jenna, come home. Pretty, pretty, please.

[M. Story]

=Ed Williams
P.S. Just for the record, I have just consumed:
A hamdog, God it was great!
Part of a Luther burger!
A fried twinkie!
And on the way home, stopped by a Dairy Queen for a large, Butterfinger blizzard. Wanna know how I feel? Great! And then some!

[/url]
Ed, It's Jeff's Birthday. Did you bring any of those hamdogs back to share with us at the party? http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/emoteCheers.gif http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/emoteCheers.gifhttp://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/emoteCheers.gif

If you get an urge to belch or, you know, otherwise feel the need to eliminate gas...<blush> after that culinary feast, please push your chair way far away from the computer. It could be dangerous to our health...<giggle>

Marlene, running for the Maalox, just in case you need it.

TO KEEP ON TOPIC: LURKERS, IF YOU'RE THINKING OF SIGNING A PA CONTRACT...THINK AGAIN! YOU JUST MIGHT REGRET IT! [url="http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001_ZZzebXXX"]http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/18/18_3_110.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001_ZZzebXXX) Run, run, run in the opposite direction...

[DreamWeaver]

For those who think the Internet is the future of books: the Internet has been around for over ten years. During that time, how many books have you purchased online? How many have you purchased in electronic format?

Now, how many have you purchased in a brick and mortar retail outlook?

I don't necessarily think the Internet is the future of books, but I buy 95 percent of my books online. The main reason is that I dislike my two local bookstores, both chain outlets. One has very limited stock; the other is badly managed, poorly staffed, dirty, and full of mis-shelved books that no-one ever tries to reorganize (hint: it's not B&N, it's not Borders). As a result, they might have what you're looking for, but you will never find it.

A contributing reason for buying online is that the online biggies (Amazon and B&N) deliver quickly and for free (I invariably order enough books to get free shipping :)). If I had to pay shipping, I would probably brave The Bookstores from Heck more often.

I love to browse nice bookstores. If I had a nice, well-stocked bookstore near me, the story *might* be different.

I also buy ebooks. However, after the first couple of times getting burned with badly edited crap, I am EXTREMELY selective in buying my ebooks. I have a very short list of acceptable publishers (one small ebook-only publisher, plus the electronic imprints of the big publishing houses, for electronic editions of physically published books). I was pretty annoyed the first time I bought some e-publisher's *best-selling book* only to find it basically raw slush. The second time it happened, I rethought my ebook purchasing plans.

To relate this to PA: I browsed their on-line bookstore last night, and they remind me of the first couple of ebook publishers I tried.

Kris

[NancyMehl]

*cough, hack, wipe with arm* Jees, ire rely aprshate da complee... compla... com *npphhht...picks nose, eats it*... nice thangs yu writ.

Rob

Okay. I retract my previous statement.....;)

Nancy

P.S. PA sucks big rotten eggs......

[M. Story]

My personal experience is to buy e-books for infomation and read about 15% of the book, gleaming the info I wanted and dissing the rest. I would never read a novel as an e-book.

As a blond, I personally do not care for e-books. It's hard to get the highlighter off the computer screen. <hair flip, flip> http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/15/15_1_143.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001_ZZzebXXX)

Seriously, I did buy 2 e-books in the past year: The South Beach Diet and the Purpose Driven Life. Both were perfect to read on-line, because one was basically recipes and the other you were expected to read just a chapter a day. To read a novel on the computer--I don't think so. I couldn't use my pretty bookmark thingie with the little tassel. <hair flip>

This is for Jenna & Lola.....Please.... http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/23/23_28_122.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001_ZZzebXXX)

[Jeff]

During that time, how many books have you purchased online? How many have you purchased in electronic format? Now, how many have you purchased in a brick and mortar retail outlook?

I hear you, realitychuck.

Guess what my long-suffering, endlessly patient, how-goes-she-put-up-with-me wife just got me for my birthday today?

A Gift Certificate.

To my local Borders Books. An honest-to-God local brick and mortar store.

I am leaving in an hour to go pick out my gifts. I will be able to browse through thousands of titles and read a bit of any I choose. I will be able to heft the book and check out the author info and even check the quality of the binding. Whatever I choose, I will be holding and reading it tonight in bed. :sleepy:

I might even relax while there and have a latte. :Coffee:

Put that into their "all books will be purchased online" pipe and smoke it. :)

=========================

Thanks for the kind wishes, everyone. I appreciate it.

[Sher2]

P.S. Just for the record, I have just consumed:

A hamdog, God it was great!

Part of a Luther burger!

A fried twinkie!

And on the way home, stopped by a Dairy Queen for a large, Butterfinger blizzard. Wanna know how I feel? Great! And then some!
One question, Big Guy, since I have no head left at this hour for anything resembling serious: were you able to make it home under your own steam or did they have to roll you?;)

[Sher2]

As a blond, I personally do not care for e-books. It's hard to get the highlighter off the computer screen. <hair flip, flip> http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/15/15_1_143.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001_ZZzebXXX)

Honey, I'm not even a blond and I can't do e-books, either. I mean, think about it. I'm already on the computer for ungodly lengths of time. If I'm going to read, I want to hold it and flip through it and smell the ink without my butt going to sleep in my desk chair.:)

[Christine N.]

I've bought lots of books online. I love to do it around the holidays, when I can avoid the crowds. It's been especially helpful since I've been stuck in the house for three months. But I always know what it is that I want to order beforehand.

If I go the physical bookstore, I spend too much a) time and b) money there. Amazon is safer for me :)

And I HATE ebooks. I wanna take a book outside and read it, or to the beach. Or read it on the train or the doctors office. Sand in my keyboard is NOT fun, and lugging around my laptop is not convenient.

[DreamWeaver]

To read a novel on the computer--I don't think so.

I don't think I'd ever read a novel on the computer, but I have "The Three Musketeers" on my Palm Pilot and whenever I'm stuck somewhere waiting, I pull it out and read. I like the fact that it's light, small, fits in my purse easily, and I can jump back and forth from the French version to the English version to check unfamiliar words, or easily go to my French dictionary or verb conjugator, also on the Palm Pilot. I got both the English and French versions off the internet for free from Project Gutenberg (yes, TTM is out of copyright ;)), and paid for the dictionary and verb book, both also downloaded from the internet.

And if I WERE going to buy a PA book, I'd buy the electronic version because it's cheaper. On the other hand, if it's not edited I might throw it against the wall in frustration, and then I'd be out the price of the Palm Pilothttp://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/emoticoncry.gif. So, maybe a PA ebook is NOT such a good idea...

Kris

[Julian Black]

The heart bleeds...

I wanted to snip this, but I just couldn't find a good place. He had honest crits and praise from real publishers, and chucked it out the window.I saw that, and my jaw dropped. Then my forehead met my desktop. Repeatedly. If I pull my keyboard a bit further forward, it almost hides the still-smoking crater.

In that four or five year waiting period, he could have written two (maybe three) more books, sent them to his agent and had them published. Made a name for himself while his first ms. aged nicely. If he was wildly successful, those publishers wouldn't have cared about HP before publishing this book.

A little patience was all it would have taken. Sigh. Instead he's stuck with PA.Exactly. In fact, if he was getting that kind of detailed criticism from editors with big publishers he probably could have found a smaller publisher to take it, Potter be damned.

Now, I'm not published. I have one completed novel that is good only for desk ballast, and a couple of half-completed ones that are dead in the water. However, I'm now writing another, and I believe I'm on the right track with it. I have ideas for several other novels that deal with similar themes, and for the first time in my writing life I really think I'm onto something.

Long before I sat down to work on this book, however, I started doing research on what it actually takes to get a novel published. I wanted to know if my long-cherished fantasy about being a novelist was at all realistic. Should I try for it?

I had no idea how the process worked--Where did agents fit in? How do you get one? What are publishers looking for? What kind of promotion are authors expected to do? What do editors do--after watching a very famous series of vampire books decline in quality due to a no-edit clause, I realized they must do quite a lot, but what?

I figured the best sources of information would not be my fellow unpubbed writers, but rather authors who were actually getting their books published, and the editors who bought those books. After just a few days of searching online, I had already discovered AW, Preditors and Editors, Making Light, Paperback Writer, Scrivener's Error, and John Scalzi's blog. I read AW for six months before signing up and making my first post--long enough to read this entire thread (yeah, I'm sick, but it's better than any soap opera), the Learn Writing with Uncle Jim thread, and much of Andy Zack's Ask the Agent thread. I followed recommended links, and read the books recommended by the folks who obviously knew what they were talking about.

Now, there's no way I can claim expertise in getting a book published, but after doing my homework and paying attention in class since last August, I have a pretty good idea how to go about submitting queries and MSS, to whom, and why they might accept or reject my work. I'm now aware of how much slush is out there, and how truly bad it is. I know that money flows toward the author, and I know how to spot a scam. I know that it's business, it's not personal, and ultimately it has to be about the reader, not the author's ego.

I already knew that most books are still sold off the shelves of bookstores and other retail outlets, not online, because I'm a reader and I'm well aware of why I buy the books that I do. I know I will reject an overpriced book, or one with low production values, and that a signed copy of a book by an unknown author means nothing to me. Since I've been a bookseller, I know how books get distributed and sold, but none of that is arcane knowledge.

So when I read that guy's post, and saw the level of constructive criticism he was getting from editors who knew they couldn't buy his book, I knew what a Big Effing Deal that was. I saw what he was being handed--and how encouraging that should have been--but he didn't. He wanted his book in print, and he didn't want to wait, or write another book to sell in the meantime, so he's let PA have it. In his impatience--in his thinking solely from the creative end of producing books, not the business end--he's doomed his own book. The whole trilogy, in fact. And the saddest part is that it's probably really good.

Which all brings me back to the one big question I always have when I read things like this from the PA boards--doesn't anyone do any research at all? I honestly don't understand how anyone can spend so much time and effort writing a book and sending it out to publishers without first trying to understand the basics of how books get into print and onto bookstore shelves.

Seriously--things like advances, developmental editing as opposed to copy editing, the craft of layout and book design, and how a book gets national placement, promotion, and distribution are not difficult concepts to grasp. The information is all out there on the web, for anyone who is willing to take the time to go look for it--I found it, after all.

Some of the misconceptions I've seen on the PA boards are truly astounding, and I know these aren't stupid people. They are smart and disciplined and determined enough to have written books, and they work like mad to get them out into the world despite all the impediments their publisher throws in their way. Yet I see the same errors repeated as fact over and over again--that POD is the way of the future, and that selling books from your website rather than bookstores is the way to go, is typical.

Every time I see another misconception get passed around as fact on the PA boards, I want to step in and explain how things really work--but I can't.

Obviously, some of the authors over there are hip to it, now, and it's always heartening to see them step in and correct some of the most glaring wrongs. I think the cross-pollination between here and the PA boards is having a positive effect. For instance, I can't tell you how many times I've wanted to give Jean Marie reputation points, lately. [laughs] I'm looking forward to the day she finally makes her appearance over here...

[Memphis Ed]

Will you buy fiction on-line without someone recommending the book or your hearing about it somehow (i.e. advertisement in USA Today or similar)?

I have purchased non-fiction for information, but don't know if I would buy a novel off of a sight such as Amazon or PA (even assuming I didn't know their deal). I know there are some rabid readers of certain genre, such as SF, romance, etc. but will you take a chance based upon a title and summary?

BTW, I appreciate the gracious welcome notes I have received today...thank you.

[Julian Black]

Funny, I thought of:

"Come on guys, it's all ball bearings these days...maybe you need a refresher course!"I thought of that "the future is in plastics" scene from The Graduate, myself...[gigglesnort]

[NancyMehl]

Guys, I give up. And now, yes, I am pissed. I feel extremely disrespected that just about no one did what I asked (four times), which was to MOVE ON and stop talking about Gena. I'm not saying that to "protect" her or to "stifle" you, just to get back on track! If people had been able to do that, there would have been NO NEED for further messages about my "letting this continue." I'm not letting anything continue! Every moment I'm awake I'm monitoring and trying to get the discussion back on track! What's so difficult about this?? I shouldn't have to delete anything-- I'm not the one who let anything continue-- your fellow posters did, by bringing it up again and again after I begged you to let it all drop. I am going to ban her for the last nastygram, but it should never have come to that.

Well, I feel terrible. But I have to bring up a couple of things. First of all, I posted something that was not the least bit confrontational. At the time, I "thought" I was being helpful. (I guess I was way off on that.) It wasn't addressed to G*** at all. It was a general comment about the situation. It was deleted. I have to admit that I was surprised by that. Secondly, you must realize that sometimes by the time I get here, I am pages and pages behind on postings. Many, many times, I am replying to something that happened several pages before I get to a post or a "warning" that is a response to the one I answered. I think that might be some of the problem. Maybe I will just start reading all the way through before I post. Even though I thought what I posted was okay, to be honest, by the time I read to the end of the thread, I probably shouldn't have posted it. If I had to do it again - I wouldn't.

I understand why it can be upsetting when someone with a bad attitude comes here and seems to have the freedom to spout off - while regular posters who have put time and effort into this place are asked to stifle themselves. I think some people get defensive because they care about this place. Territory and all that. However, I do understand the concept - and that is that this thread is here to help current PA authors - and to keep other writers from signing with PA. Because of that, we have to let people come here and "defend" their publisher. It is my job to abide by your rules - or leave. I choose to abide by them because I like it here, and I respect you. I did not intend to "go over the line" the other night - and didn't think I had. But, as I said, I was a few pages behind in my postings and didn't realize the severity of your warnings until it was too late. I humbly apologize. If I am ever seen as a problem here, I will leave.

I hope you won't be mad for too long.

Nancy

[Christine N.]

I have to say, in response to that poor guy, that six months ago I might have done the same thing myself. I'm pretty impatient, and really just want the book to be done. I had no idea I had to wait for my editor to be ready, or that my book was put into a queue after being accepted. I really just thought - "ok, it's accepted, let's get to work" LOL.

I'm still waiting. Not as impatiently, but still kinda well impatient. I know my book is coming out with the fall books (yay!) but I am anxiously awaiting my galleys so that the review copies can get out there. Sigh.

Having a book published has been educational. And and exercise in patience.

[DreamWeaver]

To my local Borders Books. An honest-to-God local brick and mortar store...[snip]...I might even relax while there and have a latte. :Coffee:

Okay, I admit, that's definitely something I can't get online. A good book, a nice latte (that I don't have to make myself and clean up afterwards :)), and a comfortable place to sit, sip, and read...yep, I'd go to THAT bookstore.

I just wouldn't find any PA books in it (See? I'm TRYING to stay OT).

Kris

[pepperlandgirl]

Wow, I'm blown away by the number of people who never, or rarely, buy books online. Heh, I buy all my books online. I hate driving to book stores--I'm lazy. Amazon is a god-send to me.

I'm also surprised by the number of people who don't like to read on the computer. Though I suppose it's because I read ungodly amount of fanfic, and so spending hours and hours hunched over a computer doesn't bother me.

I was thinking about all the ways PA writers try to market/sell their books. If I were them, I would take it to used book stores. They wouldn't get money (though they might get store credit...) but they would get their names out there! Which seems to be the point of most of their schemes...

[DreamWeaver]

Will you buy fiction on-line without someone recommending the book or your hearing about it somehow (i.e. advertisement in USA Today or similar)?

I'm one of the folks who buys a lot of books online, but I would have to answer no. I either have to have read other books by the same author, or get a recommendation from someone whose judgment I trust. I don't think I would buy one based solely on an advertisement, either.

Kris

[James D. Macdonald]

Fascinating as e-books are, PA stopped selling e-books a while ago.

Part of that, I'm sure, is how in the world do you go about selling multiple copies of their own e-book to the author? Another part was that they were caught using the same ISBN for the paper version and the e-book version.

Now, on the the "environmental" friendliness of POD. You'll see that being touted here (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/newauthors/3186.htm).

I live in a lumbering town in a lumbering community. The nearest paper mill is thirty miles down the road. Believe me on this: Saying "Save the trees! Use less paper!" is like saying "Save the wheat! Eat less bread!"

Paper comes from pulpwood that is planted, tended, harvested, and replanted. Paper, from trees, is a renewable resouce.

Print on Demand uses more resources, not less, because it has no economies of scale.

[MsRasputina]

You can sign me as another "Not a big e-book fan." I don't know why, but trying to read books online never works out for me. (Don't ask me how I managed to get through this whole thread.)

As for buying regular dead-tree books, I use Amazon when I know what I want and don't mind waiting. But that won't ever replace the fun I have just browsing the stacks in a brick-and-mortar store. Plus, I like to skim if I'm picking up something I've never heard about; it's hard to do that on Amazon if the book in question doesn't have that "Look inside" feature.

So I don't think PA ought to be writing obituaries for the good old-fashioned bookstore just yet.

[SeanDSchaffer]

Okay, I admit, that's definitely something I can't get online. A good book, a nice latte (that I don't have to make myself and clean up afterwards :)), and a comfortable place to sit, sip, and read...yep, I'd go to THAT bookstore.

I just wouldn't find any PA books in it (See? I'm TRYING to stay OT).

Kris


Actually, you might indeed find one or two PA books in a major bookstore like that, but only because the author came into that bookstore and asked for them to shelve it, and because the manager didn't know what the company's policies were concerning PA or other such books.

Independent stores are generally more willing, from what I've seen, to carry PA books than, obviously, Borders or B&N. My guess is that many independent stores still don't have much experience with PA, which is why more PA books are even now accepted in those places.


As far as sitting down with a latte and that kind of stuff, I've seen that at a couple of local bookstores where I live. There's a major, major Borders (Also a Powell's) in downtown Portland that has a large coffee shop in it and live music once-in-a-great-while; and I believe the Barnes & Noble store up the street from where I live also has a coffee shop in it. (Not certain, but I think the said coffee shop might be a Starbuck's.) I wouldn't mind sitting down with a freshly-bought book right there in the store, and taking a load off while reading a little bit of the book with a latte in my hand. That sounds quite relaxing.

[mdin]

Wow, I'm blown away by the number of people who never, or rarely, buy books online. Heh, I buy all my books online. I hate driving to book stores--I'm lazy. Amazon is a god-send to me.


I buy about 75% of my books online.

The big difference for me is every single book I've ever purchased from Amazon is a book I specifically looked for. I have never thought I'm going to buy a random book today and logged onto Amazon. I do buy random books, but they're always from the shelves.

And that's (one of the many, many reasons) why PA books fail. Their books are invisible. We sure hear a lot about PA, and sometimes an author distinguishes himself in a good or bad way. I can count on my hand the number of PA titles that have gained any sort of notice.

[DreamWeaver]

Fascinating as e-books are, PA stopped selling e-books a while ago.

Oops, I think I was confusing them with Lulu.com, which I visited recently also. Sorry :(.

Kris

[Gratian Gasparri]

How many PA books did you read before signing with PA?

[Patricia]

...back at the farm. I just got in a few minutes ago from a book-signing gig that normally would be "to die for." The table was beautiful, finger foods, coffee, punch and water. Add to those, chocolate-covered strawberries. No one said anything about my publisher -- one person ask me if it was my first book and when I replied yes, got all excited wanting info about PA. I said; I'm sorry I can't at this time, recommend my publisher. Please call me at this number and I will fill you in on how to find a reputable publisher. I got a few puzzled looks, but no dissension from anyone. When she calls, I will fill her in and point her in this direction.

All proceeds from that sigining, go to charity.

It's because of Jenna's generosity and the contribution of Jim, Ed, and others that this forum is available to help me, along with others who venture here. I'm proud to send people here to find help and hope that can continue.

[astonwest]

Many, many times, I am replying to something that happened several pages before I get to a post or a "warning" that is a response to the one I answered. I think that might be some of the problem.

A nice little trick: If there's a post you want to respond to, but you're still about ten pages from the last post on the thread, right click the quote button, and hit "open link in new window". This will open up a new browser window with a reply window. Continue to read through the posts on the original thread, repeating the process for any other posts you'd like to respond to. Then, when you reach the end of the thread, you go back to your responses, write them up, and submit them (and if not too long, you can copy and paste them into one reply window). That way, if you come across a warning (or if someone responds to a question before you do, which happens quite often for me), you can close out that reply window...

Just something to consider...

[SeanDSchaffer]

How many PA books did you read before signing with PA?


Gratian, in answer to your question:

I don't remember having read any PA books before signing with them. In hindsight, I think I should have at least tried to find one in a bookstore, so I could have found out just how available they really were -- and so I could have seen first-hand their physical quality standards. Had I seen all this before I signed with them, I imagine I might have said 'thanks, but no thanks,' to PA's contract.

[zizban]

I ordered Atlanta Nights today, because I need some (well written) mental garbage. I hope the style doesn't "infect" my writing. :tongue

[Julian Black]

Will you buy fiction on-line without someone recommending the book or your hearing about it somehow (i.e. advertisement in USA Today or similar)?No. Most of what I buy online is specialized academic, religious, or other nonfiction titles, or classics (such as a specific edition of Don Quixote, Middlemarch, or Dante's Inferno).

Maybe one out of every 20 books I buy from Amazon is current fiction, and I only buy them under certain conditions:

--I've read several reviews in reputable publications that make the book sound really intriguing, and when I read the excerpt using the "Look Inside!" feature, it grabbed me. I don't do this very often--maybe once or twice a year--and usually it is for new novels by authors I have read before. The discounted price makes this a worthwhile risk, by the way.

--I've read and liked at least three previous books by that author, and trust that the new book will also be good. I'll buy Stephen King sight unseen because I know I will always get a readable book, and usually a much better one than that. Same with T.C. Boyle, James Morrow, and Charles de Lint, not to mention the Harry Potter books. Those authors have earned their stripes, as far as I'm concerned.

--Certain individuals can recommend books to me and I will automatically buy them because those people know and share my tastes in fiction. If my kid sister tells me that I will like a book, that's good enough for me. She has excellent taste in books, and I've never gone wrong reading anything she's recommended.

Keep in mind that this represents only a small percentage of the fiction I read. Nearly all of it is bought in retail bookstores, where the book is sitting on the shelf for me to peruse.

I almost never pick up books I haven't already heard of by one means or another. Usually that means a reputable review (not the Midwest Book Review) or word-of-mouth; I don't pay much attention to advertising, unless it's to note that Stephen King has a new book out.

If I were to pick up a strange book by an unknown author, it would probably be because the cover really grabbed my attention. High production values do carry a lot of weight. If the blurb is interesting, I'll read a couple of pages. But if the price is too high, I'll put it back in favor of something else and not even think twice about it. There is no shortage of good new fiction out there, not to mention all the backlist stuff I haven't read yet.

[JennaGlatzer]

Mydearhusbandhasspilledwateronmykeyboard.

Myspacebardoesn'twork.

Camebacktosaythanksforthesupport.AndDolan,you'recu te.

Wentoutforabit,camebackcalmer.

Welcome,MemphisEd!

Wasnotmadatanyparticularindividuals.Justfrustrated bythewholesituation.

Feltveryhurtthatnoonewaslisteningtome,yetblamingme .

FeltmadthatIhadtobanGena--herattitudemaybe100%differentinafewmonths.

Willgetoverit.

Board'snotgoinganywhere.

Imaybefrustrated,butwe'vestilldonealotofgoodthings here.

Andwecanaccomplishalotmore.

Nowifyou'llexcuseme,Ihavetobuyanewkeyboard!

[MMo]

A nice little trick: If there's a post you want to respond to, but you're still about ten pages from the last post on the thread, right click the quote button, and hit "open link in new window".
SNIPPED
Just something to consider...

WOW! What a neat tip. Thanks.

Mo

[T42]

Honey, I'm not even a blond and I can't do e-books, either. I mean, think about it. I'm already on the computer for ungodly lengths of time. If I'm going to read, I want to hold it and flip through it and smell the ink without my butt going to sleep in my desk chair.:)I'm back......long trip...I noticed a lot of people are talking about e-books, etc. I have ordered one ebook and I will never do it again. I have ordered a couple of cook books and art books on line but I love going to a really quaint book store or a huge bookstore that has a coffee bar. I could spend all day in a book store. I also love the library but I would rather own the book and they want them back:) I hope everyone is doing well today and now Sheri girl, don't talk to me, I'm trying to get caught up on the post.:wag:

[Trapped in amber]

It looks like the amazon slammer is back.
Is there a way I can report a bogus and blatantly abusive review to amazon if I'm not the author?
I'm not posting a link because I'm not sure whether that would simply boost the ego of the sick idiot doing this.

--------------------------------------------

Jenna:Hug2:

[T42]

Mydearhusbandhasspilledwateronmykeyboard.

Myspacebardoesn'twork.


Okay, I only had one brownie and one cup of herbal tea but I think I'm seeing things. Jenna do you need me to send a Vet to your house? Sheri and I are thinking about having our hubbies put down. I could send her to your house later:)

[Patricia]

Nowifyou'llexcuseme,Ihavetobuyanewkeyboard!

SorryyouhavetobuyanewkeyboardJenna,butbetterthan a new husband!And thanksorthelaugh.Itwasagoodreadingandtypingexcerci se.Gladyoucamebackandarenotsoupsetanymore.Weloveyo u.

[Sher2]

I'm back......long trip...I noticed a lot of people are talking about e-books, etc. I have ordered one ebook and I will never do it again. I have ordered a couple of cook books and art books on line but I love going to a really quaint book store or a huge bookstore that has a coffee bar. I could spend all day in a book store. I also love the library but I would rather own the book and they want them back:) I hope everyone is doing well today and now Sheri girl, don't talk to me, I'm trying to get caught up on the post.:wag:
Hey, Mem, thank God you're home! I am so going to talk to you, so deal with it. I need some of your special tea, in huge quantities, like NOW. It's been a weird day, girlfriend.;)

Oh, and no, I had never read a PA book before signing with the Mean Machine. Why not, you're asking? I have no answer to that; it simply didn't occur to me. If only I'd picked one at random and given it a read, I could have saved myself a heap of trouble and wouldn't be in this pickle now. That's hindsight for you.

[Patricia]

Nowifyou'llexcuseme,Ihavetobuyanewkeyboard!

SorryyouhavetobuyanewkeyboardJenna,butbetterthanan ewhusband!Andthanksorthelaugh.Itwasagoodreadingand typingexcercise.Gladyoucamebackandarenotsoupsetany more.Weloveyou.

[Trapped in amber]

Okay, I'm an idiot.
There is a 'report this' button next to 'did you find this review helpful'. So I've reported the review to Amazon. I suggest anyone else who comes across such a review does the same.

[Memphis Ed]

And that's (one of the many, many reasons) why PA books fail. Their books are invisible. We sure hear a lot about PA, and sometimes an author distinguishes himself in a good or bad way. I can count on my hand the number of PA titles that have gained any sort of notice.

And herein lies the problem for the PA clan. Book buying tends, at least in many cases, to be an impulse decision. It's not like buying a house or car; you get moved by what someone told you, what you read, or the "feel" of the book, and you buy it.

In my personal case, I have to rely on people who have heard me speak, either in person or on my radio show. If I have books "in the back of the room", I will usually sell a large percentage of my audience. If I have books in the local bookstore, I will sell some, but fewer. If I rely on people to order online, the number goes down further.

I would think that the challenge for you fiction writers is MUCH more difficult and I admire those of you who sell your work.

In reality, I am probably the ideal PA prospect....one who primarily sells his own books. However, their deal wouldn't work for me due to a) price of book to ME, 2) difficulty in ordering, 3) cost of shipping and 4) quality of product.

My new book will be with a "traditional" (my word, not theirs) publisher, AMACOM Publishing, and though I will make less per book, I should be able to sell more. Time will be the teller of this assumption.

This is my message to PA prospects...the job of getting an agent is NOT EASY!. Their job of selling your book is NOT EASY! If it WAS easy, everyone would do it and that is the PA problem at the root. They are trying to make a difficult process look easy on your dime! The problem is they are not doing what YOU think they are doing. They are printing your book....period, end of conversation. You can NEVER make what you should be making for your work.

If you work as hard on finding an agent, developing a great plot and manuscript, you'll find that you don't have to work as hard to market your book.

If having a book is your dream, and it IS for many and a damn good one, look at the self-publishing route once more.

One more thing...rejection is part of sales. Whether it be a bookstore or agent, get used to it.

[zizban]

Hejustkepttalkinginonecompletelyunbrokensentencemo vingfromtopictotopic.

[Patricia]

I'm back......long trip...:wag:


Mem, you were gone? :wag:

[Trapped in amber]

This is my message to PA prospects...the job of getting an agent is NOT EASY!. Their job of selling your book is NOT EASY! If it WAS easy, everyone would do it and that is the PA problem at the root. They are trying to make a difficult process look easy on your dime! The problem is they are not doing what YOU think they are doing. They are printing your book....period, end of conversation. You can NEVER make what you should be making for your work.


Exactly. However hard it is to get an agent, and for them to sell your book, or to professionally self-publish, it's got to be easier than building a writing career, or having one successful book, through PA. If it feels daunting (or for someone like me, downright terrifying) just think of what you're expected to do by PA now.

[Julian Black]

Wow, I'm blown away by the number of people who never, or rarely, buy books online. Heh, I buy all my books online. I hate driving to book stores--I'm lazy. Amazon is a god-send to me.I buy tons of books from Amazon--and nearly as many from bookstores. But for me there's a split between fiction and nonfiction; I'll buy the latter online, but not the former. Academic titles, especially. I also think I'm the last person on earth who still buys lots of CDs instead of downloading everything, and I buy almost all of them from Amazon. My latest order included several volumes of the diary of Samuel Pepys along with Modest Mouse and Death Cab for Cutie's respective back catalogs. But for fiction, I like to take my time and browse in stores.
I'm also surprised by the number of people who don't like to read on the computer. Though I suppose it's because I read ungodly amount of fanfic, and so spending hours and hours hunched over a computer doesn't bother me.
I read way too much fanfic for my own good, but it's the only fiction I read on the computer. I use Questia.com to do research, but I can search within the available texts--I don't have to read everything.

Most of the time, I prefer to flop out on the couch to read, or take the book to a coffeehouse. Sitting at the computer to read isn't as comfortable.

I was thinking about all the ways PA writers try to market/sell their books. If I were them, I would take it to used book stores. They wouldn't get money (though they might get store credit...) but they would get their names out there! Which seems to be the point of most of their schemes...The trouble is that PA books still have to compete for buyers with trade books by recognized authors, that have been reviewed, promoted, and otherwise presented as of interest. Having worked in used bookstores for a long time (and sold used books online), I can tell you from experience that self- and vanity-published titles don't sell as used books, either. The only exceptions are niche nonfiction titles. An experienced buyer for a used bookstore will know straight away that a PA book is not a regular trade book, even if he or she knows nothing about PA. The production values just aren't that high, and to someone who looks at hundreds of books a day it will be obvious. And if the content isn't very well written, or suffers from inadequate editing, most readers will be turned off, too. I know used book dealers who won't buy PA, Authorhouse, iUniverse, or other POD books--they know what they are, and know they will only end up stuck with them.

[Jaws]

"Come on guys, it's all ball bearings these days...maybe you need a refresher course!"
Imagine if all books really were ordered through the internet, along with all other non-perishable consumer goods (the logical consequence of this line of thinking). What would this do to the mail system? There would be UPS, Fedex, and USPS trucks all over the place...hmmm, excuse me, I need to go buy some stocks...
That's a gibbon suit. And yes, I know I'm on thin ice…

In any event, keep in mind that there will be unintended consequences for any shift in purchasing patterns. One of them that has already shown up: The local used bookstores are seldom buying fiction any more, because they're inundated with stuff from dubious presses or that was purchased online.

[DeePower]

1. Your manuscript is completed.

2. Send out query letters to many, many agents.

3. Receive many, many rejection letters, most of them form rejection letters, where the agent says they can't get too excited about your book, but don't take it personally.

4. Finally an agent asks for the synopsis and first three chapters.

5. Agent rejects synopsis and first three chapters.


6. Send out more query letters to more agents.

7. Finally after 3,467 rejections, an agent says "I love this book I want to represent it."

8. Agent sends out manuscript to publishers.

9. After (days, weeks, months, years, pick one) a publisher says “I love this book I want to publish it.”

10. The publisher sends contract to agent. Agent and publisher negotiate. Author tells agent to agree to whatever the publisher wants before publisher changes their mind. Agent and publisher continue to negotiate. Agent gets an increase in the advance that was originally offered. Agent sends revised contract to author.


11. Author signs contract!!!!!!! And breathes huge sigh of relief.

12. Agent receives advance check from publisher, deposits in agency trust account and then sends author a check for the amount of the first half of the advance less 15% (or whatever the agreed upon percentage is).

13. Editor at the publishing house sends a few suggestions to author for conceptual revisions.

14. Author is devastated that his/her manuscript is not considered perfect, but after fooling around making the revisions, just to see what effect they'd have, realizes that editor is right.

15. More editing.

16. More editing. Author begins to panic he/she won’t make deadline.

17. More editing.

18. Manuscript is officially accepted by publisher and publisher sends second half of the advance to the agent who subtracts 15% and then sends the remainder to the author.

19. About six to eight weeks later author receives the galleys for a final proofing.

20. In the meantime the publishing house has produced a catalog which includes the cover of author's book, a brief description, marketing support, price, and author bio. Catalog includes all the books the publisher is releasing for that season. Catalog is presented to the publishing house's sales reps.

21. The sales reps say "I love this book, I want to sell it."

22. Catalog is sent to corporate buyers at the big chains and to the independent stores.

23. Sales reps call on buyers and explain how this book is going to sell gangbusters.

24. Buyers are impressed and say "I love this book, I'm going to stock it."

25. Publisher's PR person sends galley/advance reading copies to Publishers Weekly, Kirk's Review and long lead magazines and major newspapers.

26. Ads are placed in industry publications, BookList, Library Journal, Ingram's consumer magazine "Books-in-Bloom," and Business Connections, an Ingram publication for librarians and booksellers, etc., etc.

27. Publishers Weekly says "I love this book, I'm going to review it." And they give it a starred review.

28. Author waits, and waits, and waits for book to be pubbed. There's usually at least six months between the final approval of the galleys and the book being available. Production and marketing take time.

29. At long last, bookstore managers receive book and say "I love this book, I'm going to hand sell it."

30. Publisher pr person arranges radio, TV and newspaper interviews for very nervous author, who, although nervous, does a great job.

31. Author shows up at bookstore and goes into shock seeing his/her book in the bookstore sitting on the shelf. Author nearly faints when customer picks up book. Author slyly follows customer to cashier, hiding behind bookcases when necessary.

32. Customer goes to cashier, buys the book and takes it home to read. Customer says "I love this book, I'm going to tell all my friends about it."

32. And they tell five of their friends and they tell five more and five more and five more.

There you have it.


Dee

[lizziepants]

How many PA books did you read before signing with PA?

Unfortunately, none. And I say it's unfortunate only because I might have been better prepared for the total lack of a good tight edit. (Though really, I edit and rewrite about a dozen times probably before anyone sees my stuff, but that's really not too evident in my PA book.) SO. To answer -- none.

However since signing with PA and making my bumpy journey I've purchased several, some better than others, some really shouldn't have been set on paper and some that're in my humble opinion (but what do I know, I'm just a kid!) sheer genius. I even won a raffle one of the PA'ers was holding and was sent a novel for free. Well, free meaning I didn't pay 16 or 20$ for Frederick Babb's novel -- Torn, but I'm sure someone did.

Among the notable I've purchased are of course: Bonnie's Swivel Hips, Pitiful, and Ugly Mug; any of the Windy John's stories by Joyce Rapier -- both very sound projects. Sick curiosity even got ahold of me and I ordered Randall Dyck's "Bitten" -- so.

I don't believe any of the PA books I've read (perhaps with the exception of Atlanta Nights) would make me want to learn more about their publisher or seek out other books by the same house. (Assuming total ignorance of the black whole that is PA.) -- Whereas I can say I've read other works which have left me curious about their press. (small press)

So. I could add a random insult to the powers that be at PA but they know me already.

Gasparri -- you a PAer? And if so, did you read any PA books before/post signing?

[James D. Macdonald]

They are trying to make a difficult process look easy on your dime!

The easy road to publication is paved with your money.



One more thing...rejection is part of sales. Whether it be a bookstore or agent, get used to it.

Or the reader in the bookstore who picks your book up, glances at the first page, and puts it back on the shelf.

[Memphis Ed]

Exactly. However hard it is to get an agent, and for them to sell your book, or to professionally self-publish, it's got to be easier than building a writing career, or having one successful book, through PA. If it feels daunting (or for someone like me, downright terrifying) just think of what you're expected to do by PA now.

Trapped-

This is the message that must be told.

This board has 1,000 members. If you took the total books sold by the registered members of this board, multiplied that by 11 (representing the "happy authors" at PA), I wonder what you would have?

[Lisa Y]

Originally Posted by Gratian Gasparri
How many PA books did you read before signing with PA?


I think I read two. One was AWFUL. Lots of spelling and grammar errors, run on sentences. Of course, my book wouldn't be like that so it would sell! After all, PA is a traditional publisher.:Shrug:

[Dolan]

Mommas don't let your babies grow-up to be PA authors.

I love Willy. Hate country music but love Willy.

Jenna, glad you are back. Actually, I kind of like that new writing style. Are you sure that you want a new keyboard?

Phil

[T42]

I promised to stop posting on this thread but I’m breaking that promise, because I need a forum, to state the facts of my experience as a PA author.Phil, I'm so glad you didn't keep your promise. It is good to have you back. I have always enjoyed your post:)
Mem

[T42]

Mem, you were gone? :wag:SLAP!:tongue

[James D. Macdonald]

I'm beginning to recognize a few very distinct voices in PA prose; one who is not a native speaker of English, and who wants verbs at the ends of clauses, one who uses a thesaurus in very odd fashions, and one who has some training in the art of marketing-as-come-on.

Observe this ESL line from Denny Hatch's article (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=118783&postcount=3103) about PA:

Founded in 1999, PublishAmerica takes no money from authors with the exception that we can buy from them our books at a discount.

[Patricia]

Post from the PA boards.

http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/main/11966.htm

[T42]

Hey, Mem, thank God you're home! I am so going to talk to you, so deal with it. I need some of your special tea, in huge quantities, like NOW. It's been a weird day, girlfriend.;)

Good Lord, after going back through the post since I left yesterday, I'm going to make a big pot! I missed you Sheri....I'm so glad you are feeling better and back to your old self, now get outta may way little missy. Scoot:poke: ...I'm off and I'm leaving too:gone:

[Patricia]

SLAP!:tongue

Ouch!!:cry:

As I was saying...PA sucks!

[zizban]

Post from the PA boards.

http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/main/11966.htm

Since this film is based on my book, God Gave Us a Promise, published by PA, it could sure keep PA up in lights if the film should win, or at least make the top 5 finalists.

Just what we need :Wha:

[lizziepants]

This is what breaks my heart: http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/8816.htm .

[lindylou45]

During that time, how many books have you purchased online? Five

How many have you purchased in electronic format? None

Now, how many have you purchased in a brick and mortar retail outlook? Several hundred.

[Medievalist]

Okay, I'm an idiot.
There is a 'report this' button next to 'did you find this review helpful'. So I've reported the review to Amazon. I suggest anyone else who comes across such a review does the same.

You're far more likely to get the response you want if you are explicit about why the review is a problem -- i.e. it's a personal attack, using an assumed name (if it's using your name and you didn't write the review), inaccurate, etc.

[James D. Macdonald]

It's just a button. No space for remarks.

[lindylou45]

How many PA books did you read before signing with PA?

None, unfortunately.

[Ed Williams]

...I just did my thing on the Amazon boards to help the cause. And for those of y'all wondering how I'm feeling after eating all that food, I feel like a million bucks and then some - GREAT!

:PartySmil

[lizziepants]

If it's a completely ludicrous remark or submission for "Readers who liked this.. also liked _____" then Amazon will likely remove it, but don't hold your breath. It's going to take a week or so.

I was all steamed about my book listing at one point in time, though I have a fairly decent review -- someone'd come along and suggested in addition to The Red House Amazon customers might also like The Big Book of Masturbation.

And then, I realized how funny it was and let it go. The remarks were removed after a short span of time, Amazon is busy.

[Moondancer]

Mommas don't let your babies grow-up to be PA authors.

I love Willy. Hate country music but love Willy.

Jenna, glad you are back. Actually, I kind of like that new writing style. Are you sure that you want a new keyboard?

Phil

Uh, Dolan? I believe that was Waylon, not Willy. I don't like country music either... which is tantamount to a sin in Nashville.

[Medievalist]

There's a text link, that leads to a form with a button, and that should be used. But at the bottom of the page is a form. It's intended for the book information rather than the contents of the reviews, but if you indicate the specific book by URL and the review by the reviewer's name in the form, with a one sentence comment about why it is inappropriate it will get read and fixed.

I can also tell you that comments from logged in users using their real name are taken more seriously.

[bluwinteryfox]

How many PA books did you read before signing with PA?
I read one. It was a book of poetry from the gal who suggested I try PA. I didn't think much of how it was done because I don't like reading poetry.

[lizziepants]

There's a text link, that leads to a form with a button, and that should be used. But at the bottom of the page is a form. It's intended for the book information rather than the contents of the reviews, but if you indicate the specific book by URL and the review by the reviewer's name in the form, with a one sentence comment about why it is inappropriate it will get read and fixed.

I can also tell you that comments from logged in users using their real name are taken more seriously.

I'll second that. As an avid Amazon user I've found I mostly disregard comments left by anonymous users or ones not logged in. There was rumour for a long period of time on the PAMB of a certain PAer who'd post negative feedback on purpose. The easiest way to deal with a single person being a PITA is to complain to their ISP if you have an idea of who they are. I wouldn't put it past certain staff members at PA to post derogatory comments on Amazon listings of anti-PA authors. (Did that make sense?) I had some comments on my website left by a certain non-native English speaking person with odd sentence syntax at one point in time.

But yes, best to ignore the idiocy. For me, anyway.

[lizziepants]

What would be really funny -- and forgive me if this is too much or too far over the line, but, if we happened to get ahold of the code for PAs website and somehow could parse the referrer to lead a surfer to a site such as PAsucks.com, etc. Such that when someone typed in www.publishamerica.com (http://www.publishamerica.com), etc, it'd lead them to the alternate site. See, I think /that/ would be amusing. It's probably not terribly constructive or ladylike of me to mention, however, but amusing all the same.
Alright, I'll quit spamming y'all.

[Renee]

[QUOTE=Ed Williams]...is that how is it, out of a reported 11,000 plus authors, that not one PA author or book has yet to become a hit through PA's efforts? Not one out of 11,000.

It's happened more than once for tiny publishers with very small numbers of authors, so please don't say it can't be done. If that doesn't tell you they're a POD vanity press, nothing will.QUOTE]

Well let's see, not one PA author has become a hit because of PA. Why? Because PA doesn't help in any way, as we all know. Bad contract, no marketing, no bookstore placement, crappy azz cover art (no quality in the material for the cover)for everyone, no editing takes place within the book.

Let's see what else? PA manipulates their authors and encourages an angry tone amongst their authors. They expect some sort of loyalty, but never give any back. They promote unmoral acts. They lie. They cheat. They steal alot of people's hope, especially those that think the world revolves around their badly curling book -- because PA gave them a chance? A chance to kick the authors feet out from under them, that's the only chance PA delivers to their dedicated writers.

PA continues to set up road blocks for their authors, so I don't see anyone "making it" because they found PA..LOL..It's entirely impossible to get anywhere WITH PA. Hell you never know, maybe someone will find that genie in a bottle I keep hearing about. You know three wishes could make someone a success with PA..lmfao.. If someone does "make it" it won't be because of PimpAmerica a.k.a the non-traditional printer. They didn't work that kink out in their "I know let's scam every new writer out there in our own personal vendetta, since we can't get published ourselves." They want their writers to fail, it makes the authors mad once they see that they've been taken by the 3 stooges. Then PA wins because those that find out the truth about PA typically leave, or get banned, and that only makes room for the new writer who has yet to learn what a deceptive company PA is.

I'll make it with my writings because I left PublishAmerica and because I want to. And so will others who are serious about their writing, and are willing to work hard for it. I just wish those still with PA could see that they could stand a chance to really be published, not just have their name on a book.

I'd even venture to say I bet PA doesn't even have 100 happy authors. Hell, not even 50. They make the money off the new innocent writers, who they have yet to scam/con/trick. But boy did we learn our lesson! I know I did!


They piss on the authors who stick with them. Then they start the phase over again. Same 'ol vicious cycle of going through more people and using them, as they see fit.

Ok, now I'm just blabbing!

[bluwinteryfox]

Mydearhusbandhasspilledwateronmykeyboard. Myspacebardoesn'twork. Andwecanaccomplishalotmore. Nowifyou'llexcuseme,Ihavetobuyanewkeyboard!

With this type of a keyboard you'd have a wonderful manuscript for PA. :hooray: Glad you're feeling better Jenna.

[Sher2]

What would be really funny -- and forgive me if this is too much or too far over the line, but, if we happened to get ahold of the code for PAs website and somehow could parse the referrer to lead a surfer to a site such as PAsucks.com, etc. Such that when someone typed in www.publishamerica.com (http://www.publishamerica.com), etc, it'd lead them to the alternate site. See, I think /that/ would be amusing. It's probably not terribly constructive or ladylike of me to mention, however, but amusing all the same.
Alright, I'll quit spamming y'all.
It would be hysterically funny, and people would enjoy the PAS site ever so much more anyway, and we all know it can be done -- by some theoretical, invisible hacker somewhere. It would be immoral of us to actively encourage sin and sedition, however. I'm not sure about the morality of subliminal suggestion, though. Just know that if somebody does it, it wasn't me. Last time I accidentally hacked into something, I just about wet my pants.

[lizziepants]

Sherry -- I'm married to one of those hackers.

[Sher2]

Sherry -- I'm married to one of those hackers.
Well, then, you have an answer as obvious as homemade sin. :roll:

[lizziepants]

http://www.networksolutions.com/en_US/whois/results.jhtml;jsessionid=Q3H4XF0FL5ADKCWMEAQSFEQ?w hoistoken=0&_requestid=625069

Looks as if it'd be possible, too. However, I'm quite sure it's a punishable offense.

[DaveKuzminski]

A few years ago, I worked solely in PC support. One of the problems I encountered in the two decades I did that work was spills on keyboards. If that happens to you, there is an easy solution.

Shut down your computer. Disconnect the keyboard. Open the back with a screwdriver (many use screws, but some may need to have a catch slipped free). Shake out any water from the now open case and from between the circuit boards (many have layers of circuit boards). Next, get hold of a hair blow drier. Use it from a distance of 1 to 2 feet away and be sure to aim it all over and in between any circuit boards for at least 10 minutes total (longer if you can still see any moisture). Connect your keyboard to your computer and turn it on. If the keyboard works, then you've found all the moisture. You can now flip your keyboard over and put the screws back into place or snap the shell together. If not, shut down your computer again and work more on the area of the circuit board with the keys that aren't working (assuming they worked before the spill). This procedure always worked for me.

If the spill is anything other than water, use a tub of water to rinse out the keyboard, then follow all the steps I gave for dealing with a spill.

Should your keyboard fail to respond to this treatment, then you will have to consider replacing your keyboard.

Water really won't harm your keyboard. The manufacturing process uses a dipping procedure in water to clean out keyboards during assembly to get rid of loose particles of solder and such that might cause failure.

*************

Remember to tell anyone considering signing with PA that they should check out a PA book at their local bookstore. When they come back to report that they couldn't find any, you can then tell them that's how available their book will be, too, if they sign with PA.

[Sher2]

http://www.networksolutions.com/en_US/whois/results.jhtml;jsessionid=Q3H4XF0FL5ADKCWMEAQSFEQ?w hoistoken=0&_requestid=625069

Looks as if it'd be possible, too. However, I'm quite sure it's a punishable offense.
Oh, I'm sure it is -- by both rent-a-cops late at night and by the real ones. I expect we'd better zip our lips -- and state publicly right here, right now, WE DIDN'T DO IT!;)

[Renee]

BTW, I have observed this board for a long time and have developed a lot of admiration for people whom I have never met. I find myself checking both boards (PA and this one) addictively, but love it.

__________________

You made some fine points, Memphis Ed.

BTW, I lurked for several years here at AW before I posted. I read the AW boards all the time. So, I know what you mean. AW is truly a resourceful place to be and I'm glad you stopped in to post. Just remember you can check out anytime you like, but you can never leave (Hotel Absolute Write..hehe). That is the AW addiction!
:banana:



On a side note: (Yeah, I'm still blabbing)

I don't see how anyone can stomach reading the PA message board (bored). With the bannings, the censorship, and PA's all around b/s and a side order of lies...I know I can't read the PA boards anymore, simply because I am beyond fed up with the PA debacle and the lies.



PS- I'm just catching up on this thread, been busy! So welcome to anyone else who I may have missed. :Clap:



And Ed W., glad to hear you finally got that Hamdog you've been talkin' about! :) :Hail:

[realitychuck]

What would be really funny -- and forgive me if this is too much or too far over the line, but, if we happened to get ahold of the code for PAs website and somehow could parse the referrer to lead a surfer to a site such as PAsucks.com, etc. Such that when someone typed in www.publishamerica.com (http://www.publishamerica.com/), etc, it'd lead them to the alternate site. .As others have said, it is possible, but it could lead to serious legal consequences. And we wouldn't want to give PA that sort of ammunition.

In other words, even if you can dig out a way to accomplish this, don't do it.

We don't need to stoop to PA's level to bring them down. Merely stating the truth is more than enough.

[reph]

We don't need to stoop to PA's level to bring them down. Merely stating the truth is more than enough.
Don't forget the setting: a wood-paneled room. And you have to have put your hand on a Bible before speaking.

[Sher2]

Don't forget the setting: a wood-paneled room. And you have to have put your hand on a Bible before speaking.
But if one of the Stooges had to put his hand on the Bible, do you think that grubby hand would melt?

[Renee]

Uh, Dolan? I believe that was Waylon, not Willy. I don't like country music either... which is tantamount to a sin in Nashville.

I thought it was Willie too. Anyhow, I know he covers the song. Then again, I'm not much into country musak! LOL..

But my granny is a freakin' huge Willie fan, so yeah I was tortured with his musak for years..lol.

;)

[DaveKuzminski]

In some corporate circles, individuals are encouraged to put all ideas on the table, regardless of how extreme, where those can be examined and evaluated for their practicality and legality and such. Let's not condemn those who offer suggestions or jump to the conclusion that they actually intend to go through with those, especially when they point out themselves that they think it's too extreme or wrong.

At the same time, we should remember that not all ideas that sound wrong are truly wrong. It is not wrong to boycott against a business. Nor is it wrong to suggest how such a boycott might operate in light of the business being electronic rather than a brick-and-mortar operation. In fact, thinking of new ways to counter scams and such is totally in line with how some district attorneys have to act when they consider what weapons they have to go after crooks using new (electronic) tools to commit what are clearly frauds which don't appear to be covered by the laws that the DAs are used to applying.

In fact, this very thread we post in is such an effort. It's somewhat successful, but it's not the only weapon that can be used. It's up to us to discover other weapons that can legally be used and the only way to find those is if we let folks toss out their ideas for discussion without fear of condemnation or deletion of their posts because others fear that rational discussion might implicate them or otherwise make them liable. If anything, it provides information to others who might come up with the same ideas. What's worse is they might implement a bad idea because they lacked the information and guidance our discussion might otherwise provide.

[astonwest]

But if one of the Stooges had to put his hand on the Bible, do you think that grubby hand would melt?

Burst into flames, methinks...
I think you have to use holy water to achieve melting...
;)

[Sher2]

Burst into flames, methinks...
I think you have to use holy water to achieve melting...
;)
Yeah, I think you're right. And I think we'd better start stocking up on gallon jugs of the stuff. Judgment Day's a-comin'.:)

[Ken Schneider]

http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/general/2267.htm




http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/general/2250.htm


So what do you plan to do about it?

[Ed Williams]

...and here they be:

1. I got an email from a PA author friend who told me that there is starting to be some scuttlebutt among the troups as to why PA is balking about having an accountant take a look at their books. In his words, "Ed, tell your friends on AW that it's having more of an effect than they are seeing, push it!"

2. Renee, I loved that hamdog, and the fried twinkie was even better! I feel like a fifteen year old again, it's lucky I'm away from civilization here in rural Georgia tonight.

I need to go back and look, I had a question earlier in this thread about my own book contract, I will go take a look and answer either this evening or tomorrow.

(People have it all wrong about grease and fat and all, my theory is, eat lots of it, build up immunities to it, and then you'll live longer. Hey, it works for snake handlers, doesn't it)?

:D

[Ed Williams]

Ed, I'm interested and I am a newbie at this so my questions is: When you deal with a reputable publishing co. and you feel there might be a discrepancy between what you sold and what you got paid for, what is the procedure to resolve it? Is there a "common" procedure or is it something that varies by contract? Does it have to involve lawyers and accountants or do they just send you copies of their ledgers or paperwork for your review?...and Uncle Jim, Victoria, Jenna, or others who are much more well published than I am could answer this better, but I will answer re my own situation. Per my the contract on my latest book, I can request "a look at the books" at least once per annum. I would have to notify my publisher in writing, but I could come "audit" their books and bring an accountant with me if I desire. That's what's in my contract. Something else needs to be added, though - contract or no, my current publishers (River City Publishing in Montgomery, AL) are run by a couple of very nice, ethical people. I have no doubt that if I called anytime wanting to see their books that they would honor the request. Remember all the shucking and jiving PA did when asked about theirs? Sometimes you can tell alot about a publisher not just by what's in their contract, but in how they typically comport themselves. Remember an age old adage, honest people have nothing to hide.

[Dolan]

Nobody, doesn't like Willie.

Willie has not had a book published by PA. That should tell you country writers to stay away from PA. Shouldn't it?

I heard a duet of Willie and Waylon signing the "Mommas" song and I'm pretty sure the lyrics warned them away from old, pick-up trucks and PublishAmerica.

But then again, that was back in my drinking days.

[JennaGlatzer]

FYI: I stole Anthony's keyboard. :thankyou:So I guess the vet doesn't have to make a stop here.

RC: Keep meaning to tell you that I once lived in Schenectady. Worked at Steamer No. 10 Theatre-- ever been there?

One of the things that bugs me about some of the PA logic (like the threads chang linked) is that it always seems to come down to, "Everyone in the publishing world is wrong! Someday they'll be begging for our books!"

I really don't care who uses the term "author" or even "published author." Self-pubbed, vanity-pubbed, or comercially-pubbed, the titles don't matter much to me. If you wrote a book and saw it to print, I have no problem with calling you an author.

However, if you've been commercially published, I have a little more reassurance that you're a good author. Not foolproof, but it does tell me that an editor liked your work and a publisher decided to invest in it.

When you find out that authors' groups, bookstores, libraries, agents, reviewers, editors, etc. do not consider PA to be a "real" publisher, why is it that many PA authors are so quick to discount that opinion? Regardless of what publishing method you choose, bear in mind that to gain readers, you still need to follow certain steps: get trade reviews, get the book stocked on shelves, get libraries to carry it, etc. If you ignore and belittle the words of all these people, how do you expect to make it in the business they run?

When a bookstore manager says, "I can't shelf your book because it's POD and non-returnable and too expensive," the manager isn't doing that to be an elitist jerk. He/she is telling you something of value: Here are the things your book needs to be stocked in my store.

I can't say for sure with the writers' groups because I don't belong to any of the professional genre associations, but my guess is that they limit themselves to commercially-published authors to keep a peer relationship among members. If one member is published by Scholastic and the other is published by PA, the relationship becomes mentor-mentee instead of networking. The Scholastic author has experiences, contacts, etc. that the PA author has not achieved yet, and there are several ways they won't be able to "talk shop" together.

I am part of one writers' group that, while it has no formal requirements, is mostly made up of high-level freelance writers. I go there to network and chat with people who are already on my "level" professionally. I don't go there to teach. I don't mind teaching, of course, but I also want a place where I can go for help, rather than trying to bring others up to speed. And if there are editors/agents invited to check out members' work, I want to feel confident that my fellow members are ready for publication.

I don't think that's elitist, but it is merit-based. If your work is good, I believe you can find a publisher. It may not be quick and easy to do so, but with enough pavement-pounding, I think a great book can always find a home. And once you've done that, you won't have to worry about stigmas or whether or not you're "really" published. You won't have to badger store managers into "seeing the light" about non-returnable policies and overpricing. That's not your job anyway... it's the publisher's job to do the distribution and marketing. It's your job to write the best book you can, work with an editor to make it shine, and contribute to publicity efforts (not do it alone).

[needles]

Will you buy fiction on-line without someone recommending the book or your hearing about it somehow (i.e. advertisement in USA Today or similar)?

I have and will, if the storyline sounds sufficiently intriguing.

I buy a lot of e-books for my iPaq, which I take with me everywhere since it seems I also buy a lot of cargo pants. And ya know, there are two reasons why I prefer buying most of my books on-line--you can google the authors, yes, but more than that I'm not distracted as much by pretty, pretty cover art as it hits me from eye level when I'm perusing the shelves at the local Border's. It's as if then another impulse-purchasing dynamic dominates and I'm less likely to find a read I'd really enjoy. I'm not going to summarily turn over each book to take a look at the cover copy on the expectation that the title of the book or its cover doesn't adequately convey what the book is really about. Whereas if I'm looking at a page of offerings at ereader or Fictionwise, it's as if I'm perusing a catalog--the book covers are the size of a postage stamp next to their respective summaries, and then you can kind of glide over the descriptions for those idiosyncratic keywords -- "hmmm...abandoned alien ship...lycans...hot tubs. Hey! Here we go..."

Jim pointed out that PA no longer offer their books as e-book downloads. I was thinking about how many authors whose books I've bought b/c I first encountered their short stories on Fictionwise--for as little as 42 Merkin pennies or as much as upwards of $4.00 dollars, it's more often than not worth the gamble.

To shop from PA's offerings, though? I can't afford the time or energy to sift through over 10,000+ offerings to find the authors readable enough to justify the avg $20/pop.

[Renee]

Nobody, doesn't like Willie.

Willie has not had a book published by PA. That should tell you country writers to stay away from PA. Shouldn't it?

I heard a duet of Willie and Waylon signing the "Mommas" song and I'm pretty sure the lyrics warned them away from old, pick-up trucks and PublishAmerica.

But then again, that was back in my drinking days.

Yeah, Willie's likeable, even though he's country. I have to admit to liking a couple of his songs, ok several! It's CONDITIONING I tell ya! LOL...

Whiskey for my men and beer for my horses..lmfao...

Or is that save a horse, ride a cowboy? Kidding..that's someone else entirely. But I do like that country song.

I like the older country music some, just not that hick shiat! And don't be pointing them Willie fingers at me, I'm from Texas! And uh, so is Willie. Matter-of-fact he read my book..lol.. :guns: :wag: :whip:

[lindylou45]

But if one of the Stooges had to put his hand on the Bible, do you think that grubby hand would melt?

The Bible would probably burst into flames. :scared:

[Dolan]

Let me set Willie aside and say something about accountants.

My attorney told me that PA can not prevent an accountant from examining my records at PA, even though they claim that only I can look at them. It is because accounting is a profession and I'm a layman, etc. It is not rational to think that I am qualified to understand PA's records. I am entitled to have a pro audit my PA records.

The problem is that PA can and has refused to permit an accountant to audit my PA records. They won't let her in the door, so they say. My remedy, at law, then is through legal action to force them to reveal the records.

This is a civil matter and must be dealt with through civil action. No cops, no FBI, etc. (I really miss Roy Rogers, though. He would know what to do.)

I will keep my promise, to PA, that they will see how I will have my accountant looking at their records.

Me and Willie keep our word.

Phil

P. S. I never liked the way Dale Evans wore her hair.

[SeanDSchaffer]

The Bible would probably burst into flames. :scared:


I think a trap-door to Hell would pop open and, well... I think we all know what happens right about that point.

:eek:

[robeiae]

2. Renee, I loved that hamdog, and the fried twinkie was even better! I feel like a fifteen year old again, it's lucky I'm away from civilization here in rural Georgia tonight...(People have it all wrong about grease and fat and all, my theory is, eat lots of it, build up immunities to it, and then you'll live longer. Hey, it works for snake handlers, doesn't it)?

Stop talking about that hamdog! I'm drooling all over my keyboard!

Rob

[lindylou45]

Nobody, doesn't like Willie.

Willie has not had a book published by PA. That should tell you country writers to stay away from PA. Shouldn't it?

I heard a duet of Willie and Waylon signing the "Mommas" song and I'm pretty sure the lyrics warned them away from old, pick-up trucks and PublishAmerica.

But then again, that was back in my drinking days.

Dolan,

It sounds like you would be quite comfortable in the Lords of the Prance thread in the Take it Outside Board. Several of us have been rewriting songs and making them parodies of PA. Give it a shot. It's fun! :Jump: :hooray:

[Renee]

Renee, I loved that hamdog, and the fried twinkie was even better! I feel like a fifteen year old again, it's lucky I'm away from civilization here in rural Georgia tonight.:D





The hamdog would probably give me a two day indigestion situation. Plus, I'm not sure I'd want to be 15 again! Ok, I'm positive that I don't want to be 15 again..lol..
:wag:

But a fried twinkie sounds yummy!

;)

[Canada James]

The reason is that MANY self publish books are full or ERRORS and don't look professional.

Just curious, but how many of the 11, 000 PA books have you read? If I gave you some titles, would you be willing to log onto the author's website and read a few sample chapters?

They are not regularly available on book shelves and the authors have a difficult time getting them shelved. (the same complaints many have with PA). So for my goals I realized that choosing either one was a gamble.

I felt the same way.

If I had chosen self publishing I would have to do the same things I'm doing with PA, the only difference is I can HONESTLY say I was published by a small publishing company.

They aren't a small publishing company by any definition. They have 11,000 authors. What would you say it is about PA that makes them small? Who would you compare them to?

My business partner, who is also an author with a manuscript out there is self published and her book is AWESOME. But the same places that have agreed to order my book, and publicize my book refused hers.

I'll make you a deal. When your book comes out, I'll randomly visit 15 bookstores. If I find copies of your book in them, I'll buy every copy.

Your challenge:

Go back to those bookstores and mention the following with your PR:
(1) No returns policy
(2) short discount (20%)
(3) Tell them the price of your book and the page count
(4) There's no deferred payments. All monies owed are payable by credit card and due upon order

Although my book has not been released yet, it's been available on PA's website for about a month. I have received letters, calls, and emails from family, friends, and complete strangers who have ordered, received, and enjoyed my book.

How did they hear about it?
Did you hear what happened to Nancy Mehl when her book was about to go national?

My family is BLUNT like me. If there was anything not up to par about the book they received, the ordering process, or the shipment...they'd tell me.

PA is fine sending orders to individuals through their website.
Ask the bookstores to keep you appraised of their experience.

Everyone is pleased and PROUD of me.

And they should be! You should be! Finishing a book is a hard thing! All the people here want your book to be available, as in stocked, in real brick and mortar bookstores across the nation.

I've already been approached by an agent who saw my PR release, and read my book. I'm not ready to choose one yet...but it feels good to know that someone is interested.

Would you be willing to share who that is?

All of this and I'm still a month away from release.

Let me know what you think in September.

My goals from this point don't involve PA, they were the stepping stone...and for that they've been what I wanted...needed...and expected.

I, too, got what I needed from them. I also got one huge headache and embarrassment whenever a bookstore tried to order my books. They would ignore phone calls, faxes and emails. They'd "lose" orders and then deny to me that the bookstore ever called them. (I work for the bookstore. I was sitting with the ordering person when she called.) They said the price of my book would be $16.95, but it's remained at $19.95 through Ingram still to this day.

Wait until your book is "available" through the bookstores and the problems start happening. I hope they don't, but they will. When you question PA about it you, too, will get the infamous "don't take that tone" letter.

If you want to see something interesting, go to the beginning of this thread. Around page 7, I believe. Check out how *I* thought PA was a fine company, too. And before someone convinces you that I'm a failed author with "sour grapes", check out my website. I have another book coming out and it'll be distributed by the same company that publishes the Canadian edition of Harry Potter.

Canada James

[SeanDSchaffer]

Let me set Willie aside and say something about accountants.

My attorney told me that PA can not prevent an accountant from examining my records at PA, even though they claim that only I can look at them. It is because accounting is a profession and I'm a layman, etc. It is not rational to think that I am qualified to understand PA's records. I am entitled to have a pro audit my PA records.

The problem is that PA can and has refused to permit an accountant to audit my PA records. They won't let her in the door, so they say. My remedy, at law, then is through legal action to force them to reveal the records.

This is a civil matter and must be dealt with through civil action. No cops, no FBI, etc. (I really miss Roy Rogers, though. He would know what to do.)

I will keep my promise, to PA, that they will see how I will have my accountant looking at their records.

Me and Willie keep our word.

Phil

P. S. I never liked the way Dale Evans wore her hair.


Right on, Phil!:Thumbs:

[reph]

FYI: I stole Anthony's keyboard.
Welcome back, Jenna.

SohowisAnthonykeepinghimselfentertainedthisevening ?
Oh,letmeguess.
Withascrewdriverandahairdryer,Ibetcha!

[SeanDSchaffer]

Just so you know:

The person you were addressing in your long post above my previous one has been banned from the board, and therefore cannot respond to your questions properly.

[Renee]

Let me set Willie aside and say something about accountants.


The problem is that PA can and has refused to permit an accountant to audit my PA records. They won't let her in the door, so they say. My remedy, at law, then is through legal action to force them to reveal the records.

This is a civil matter and must be dealt with through civil action. No cops, no FBI, etc. (I really miss Roy Rogers, though. He would know what to do.)

I will keep my promise, to PA, that they will see how I will have my accountant looking at their records.

Me and Willie keep our word.

Phil

P. S. I never liked the way Dale Evans wore her hair.

Why of course they refused. Did ya think they'd bake you a cake? LOL..

You know, we all know, that PA is guilty as sin. But those stooges are tricky, remember that. They are trying to protect their worthless little jobs of sitting constantly on their azzes. And they'll do anything, including falsifying their records to prove it. You just have to keep on pushing, through your lawyer, of course. People like the stooges are truly capable of anything evil..

Word of advice though: (IMHO) I wouldn't tell them everything you are planning to do about your contract through this board. The stooges are always here. You don't want to give any warning to them. Plus, I want to see this work for you.

[DreamWeaver]

My remedy, at law, then is through legal action to force them to reveal the records.

This is a civil matter and must be dealt with through civil action. No cops, no FBI, etc.

Let me see, civil actionhttp://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/emoticonidea.gif...does that mean the judge could fine them for every day they refuse to comply, and you can eventually take over all their assets? The townhouse? The Porsche? The spell-checker?

Hmmm, I'm liking the sound of this better and better. http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/cool.gif

Kris

[SeanDSchaffer]

It's good to see that you're back! You sure sound like you're doing better.:) Did you get the pm I left for you?

[Canada James]

Just so you know:

The person you were addressing in your long post above my previous one has been banned from the board, and therefore cannot respond to your questions properly.

I'm kind of bummed. Well, if she reads the post, she can feel free to PM me here or through my website.

By the way, Jenna please don't kill me for posting this in the wrong place, but I'm tying this into PA:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1894965310

The point I want to make is this:

If you notice, my name is wrong on the cover. My publisher has been notified and the error corrected (before it went to print). The cover on Amazon is still wrong.

Now, it's taken PA, what, 1 1/2 years, and the price is *still* wrong on my PA book.
Let's play a game and see when the cover art error on Amazon gets corrected, and we'll see the difference between a "traditional" publisher and a "commercial" publisher.

I'll post the details.

Canada James

[AnneMarble]

For those who think the Internet is the future of books: the Internet has been around for over ten years. During that time, how many books have you purchased online?

Quite a few, but not as many as I've purchased in brick and mortar stores. Mostly trade paperbacks and hardbacks, because the discount is better. If I don't have the urge to buy a particular book right away, I sometimes order it from Amazon or B&N instead. That is, if I can hold myself back...

But (ahem) I often see them while browsing in the regular store first. ;) (ahem) Also, sometimes I think my Amazon wish list should be retitled "Stuff I hope to buy at the Barnes & Noble down the street."
:roll:

The on-line bookstores are also good places to find stuff the stores aren't stocking. For example, I just got a package containing a collection of Russell Kirk's ghost stories from Amazon.

How many have you purchased in electronic format?

More than 200 from Fictionwise.com alone. But I'm weird. :D Also, most of those were reprints from authors put out by major NYC publishers.

Now, how many have you purchased in a brick and mortar retail outlook?

More than I should. Waaaay more.
:faint: :scared: :cry: :flag:

[AnneMarble]

I was all steamed about my book listing at one point in time, though I have a fairly decent review -- someone'd come along and suggested in addition to The Red House Amazon customers might also like The Big Book of Masturbation.

Maybe Larry and Willem did it. They're master baiters, you know.

Darn, where's the rimshot smiley?

This will have to do.
:wag:

[mdin]

I still don't get the allure of e-books. I've purchased a couple to read on a handheld, and even then it just irked me. I couldn't get comfortable. One of them was a really good book, and I ended up printing the last 70 pages just so I could concentrate more on the story than my comfort level.

Nonetheless, I have a book (http://www.fictionwise.com/ebooks/eBook21147.htm) available on fictionwise, and I'm constantly surprised how many people purchase it despite the horrendous teaser. So there is a big market for e-books, and that makes me happy. I get more royalties from the sale of the e-book than I do from the sales of the physical copies.

****

And to keep this thread on target... Lisa! Bravo. I got your press release in my inbox just now. Very well done. If anyone wants to read it, it's here (http://www.prleap.com/pr/6736/).

[Jeff]

I really don't care who uses the term "author" or even "published author." Self-pubbed, vanity-pubbed, or comercially-pubbed, the titles don't matter much to me. If you wrote a book and saw it to print, I have no problem with calling you an author.

Jenna, I try to be empathetic to the plight of the Publish America authors, but when I do become exasperated, it is usually due to the things you've noted in your post.

As I've pointed out in the past, it seems that many of these folks want to circumvent the rigors of being published while still claiming all the benefits entitled to those who did not. Over and over you hear the same refrain from many of them; I did not want to wait.

It's akin, I think, to the 45 year old who buys his way into attending a fantasy baseball camp, and then shows up at Yankee stadium on opening day wondering why they will not let him into the locker room. Sure, he's got the uniform from the camp, he's got the hat from the camp, he's even brought his glove -- but who the hell is he and who has he competed against to prove that he can play center field? Why should the Yankees put him in the game just because he bought his way to the trappings of the success that others earned legitimately? Why should Derek Jeter, Jason Giambi, Gary Scheffield and Alex Rodriguez consider this guy their peer when he did not go through the same vetting process that they did? When did he prove himself? How can he explain to those who earned the right to be in the major leagues that he circumvented the system and tried to make an end-run around it to get to there with them?

Why then, should they respect him?

What I find ironic about these PA folks who claim they are on some literary pirate ship is that they think that they have found a way to an instant literary pedigree when in fact all they have done is show us that they are foolishly desperate for the very thing that they refuse to continue to work hard to earn.

And that is something that I cannot respect.

[Richard]

Semi-unrelated:

What the hell is a hamdog? A burger in a hot-dog bun?

[Diana Hignutt]

Her future as a writer will be decided upon by her skill as a writer. Her posts here will have nothing to do with it.

Y'know who she reminds me of? A little of me. I hope she stays, I hope she posts to this thread, and I wish her all the success in the world.

If she feels uncomfortable posting her opinions here, feel free to PM me. I promise you an open, honest dialogue about PA. We can trade experiences.


You know what, James? I was thinking about this yesterday...she sounds like I did back in the day.

I fell into the PA trap, but without the knowledge that she possesses. I thought they were a legitimate traditional publishing house, you know, like they said they were. But, I did eventually figure it out, and for a little while, I thought I could make their system work for me. I believed that I was different than all of the other PA authors. I was one of the first transsexual fantasy novelists. I had real talent. I would transcent the limits that PA's policies placed on me. In the end, I couldn't. They lied. They mungled. They stole. They are still selling my book illegally, even though they have no right to do so. With criminals of this sort, it is hard to succeed. I believe it is impossible.

But, never stop believing in yourself. I never want to be the person who tells someone they can't succeed. It will be very, very, very hard, though.

I apologize...

Feel free to PM me, too...

Diana Hignutt
Author of Empress of Clouds (Behler), 2004 Foreword Magazine Book of the Year Finalist for Science Fiction, and 2005 Spectrum Award Nominee.

[needles]

Jenna, I try to be empathetic to the plight of the Publish America authors, but when I do become exasperated, it is usually due to the things you've noted in your post.

No..noooo...I read that post and I thought she was just making the point that putting together a mss worth printing was an admirable end in itself, but whether the mss could be considered commercially viable was something different entirely...

However, if you've been commercially published, I have a little more reassurance that you're a good author. Not foolproof, but it does tell me that an editor liked your work and a publisher decided to invest in it.

Jeff, I appreciated your analogy--it reminded me of the time I encountered an unspectacular high school classmate who spent two years at a local trade school before going to a med school in the Caribbean*, and who then insisted upon being addressed as "Dr. So-and-so", when I felt--knew?--that she'd somehow subverted the process by which most ppl earn MD's.

I feel bad for making these distinctions, b/c you'll find so many more gems in vanity or subsidy presses than you'll find future Salks in offshore underfunded and underequipped med schools, so it's totally not an apt analogy. And I feel lousy enough for even asserting the likelihood of that latter statement to pretty much shut up now.

*Actually, I've been thinking about it for the past 2 hours, and it may have been Central America.

[Ed Williams]

...I journey over to the Great and Mighty Land of Poz, where we find a new way to sell PA books through Ebay:

With eBay you can sell what you don`t yet own. If you have an account so that you can purchase our books at the discount rate then you can make a profit. If you can have an ordered book dropshipped as well that saves shipping.
gg, you should try any market and see how it goes as long as it is not expensive to do.In the "How Many Times Can I Punch Myself In The Face" category, we find this:

"A BOOK FROM P.A..IS LIKE THE GIFT THAT KEEPS ON GIVING!"The same could be said about untreated communicable diseases.

In the "When Does It Ever Change" category, we find that the new PA releases link has been up for over a week. And Moe-randa, Larry, and Curlem, lots more people than you think perceive that your website index page never changes, bad news for a scam outfit who wants to be taken seriously. Might best run over to Jiffy Lube to see if there's a web designer over there who's down on his/her luck.

Richard, a hamdog is a hot dog, wrapped with a burger patty that's deep fried. Then, it is put into a hoagie roll and covered over with bacon, cheese, chili, onions, and then topped off with a fried egg. Just go on the web, type in "hamdog Mulligans," and you'll find out all you need to know....

[Diana Hignutt]

I woke up this morning with a vision of the old (original) Three Stooges doing hard time. You know, the episode where they are dressed in striped prison outfits, breaking rocks with pick axes. Then I imagined the new stooges in their places. Ah... (perhaps soon)...

diana

[Christine N.]

Hejustkepttalkinginonecompletelyunbrokensentencemo vingfromtopictotopic.

I smell a new chapter for Atlanta Nights!

[Sher2]

I woke up this morning with a vision of the old (original) Three Stooges doing hard time. You know, the episode where they are dressed in striped prison outfits, breaking rocks with pick axes. Then I imagined the new stooges in their places. Ah... (perhaps soon)...

diana
Why am I suddenly humming "Working on the Chain Gang?" Stooges actually doing some work, sent to the hole for fleecing other convicts, grumbling and cursing and whining the whole time. Excellent vision, Diana. :D

[Christine N.]

Let's see what else? PA manipulates their authors and encourages an angry tone amongst their authors. They expect some sort of loyalty, but never give any back.

This brings up another point - how many authors in real publishing houses are "Loyal" to their publishers like PA authors? It's the PA family, donchaknow.

I mean, I like my publisher. It's small, they only publish twelve or so titles per year. So, because it's small, you get to know the EIC, the art director, etc... I am enjoying my experience with them, and since they right of first refusal to my next book, I'll submit it to them. Well, not just because of that, as I said, my experience has been positive.

If I could get an agent tomorrow and a big publishing contract for my next book, I wouldn't feel bad about taking it. My publisher would probably say "great - good luck" (of course that's good for them too, b/c if the next book is a hit, people would wanna see my backlist, more sales for them)

Why this loyalty to PA, when they give nothing in return?

[Christine N.]

I can't say for sure with the writers' groups because I don't belong to any of the professional genre associations, but my guess is that they limit themselves to commercially-published authors to keep a peer relationship among members.

Well, RWA accepts all writers, but PA is not a professional credit. SCBWI accepts all writers, and self published authors can be accepted as full members as long as the book is "commerically available and have had considerable sales". I think they accept PA as a publishing credit. But how many childrens books does PA print? Not a signifcant number, I think.

[Sher2]

This brings up another point - how many authors in real publishing houses are "Loyal" to their publishers like PA authors? It's the PA family, donchaknow.

I mean, I like my publisher. It's small, they only publish twelve or so titles per year. So, because it's small, you get to know the EIC, the art director, etc... I am enjoying my experience with them, and since they right of first refusal to my next book, I'll submit it to them. Well, not just because of that, as I said, my experience has been positive.

If I could get an agent tomorrow and a big publishing contract for my next book, I wouldn't feel bad about taking it. My publisher would probably say "great - good luck" (of course that's good for them too, b/c if the next book is a hit, people would wanna see my backlist, more sales for them)

Why this loyalty to PA, when they give nothing in return?
I think that the extreme loyalty you point out is the reason PA is so often compared to a cult. The PA "family" is a large group of perhaps 11,000 -- controlled and closely monitored by 3 (or maybe it's 6 now). They're all connected by one thing -- a manuscript accepted by PA, never mind that it's a manuscript that might not have been accepted anywhere else on Earth. PA had "faith" in their work, however, for which these folks seem to think they owe PA their undying gratitude.

In return for PA's benevolent bounty (to-wit, one bona fide dollar bill, two printed books, and not much else), these people are perfectly willing to set aside their own identities and slip into "family" persona. Next, they slide into an us v. them mentality, something else you don't see with mainstream publishers and their authors. They're then prepared to bunker down on their family-provided, head honcho controlled message boards to bond with each other and withstand the verbal seiges of "outsiders." Any infidel who would dare to disparage their beloved publisher becomes "the enemy."

The rank and file is never permitted to question the authority of the leaders. To do so is heresy and renders the questioner fair game for attack by the others. If they can't keep the Doubting Thomas in line by throwing him to the wolves, why, they'll just ban him. Exiled from the garden, wandering around aimlessly, cut off from his brethren, sometimes he'll make the requisite apology to the leadership and be allowed back in, contrite and repentant and profusely apologetic.

The chosen people are getting what they need -- validation of their work, tweaking of their egos, a sense of kinship and belonging, and a forum in which to feel cherished. All that is required of them in return is unquestioning, unfailing loyalty to their leaders -- as long as they're giving said leaders their money as well.

Cult-like? If it walks like a duck and it talks like a duck...

[James D. Macdonald]

I think we're leaving out the folks who honestly thought this was what real publishing was all about, that this was an honest small press (it is a small press under the New York Times' definition) no different from Seven Stories Press or Newmarket Press, and that their submission-acceptance-editing-printing was what any other author experienced.

Enough people, even ones who ought to know better, claim that it's up to an author to publicize his own works that that particular red flag would be partly furled.

The statements you read on PA's pages are mostly of the Yeah-But variety ... they say Thus and So, and you reply Yeah, But that's only in certain rare and unusual circumstances. They don't really lie (other than "PublishAmerica is NOT in any way a POD, vanity press, or subsidy publisher, and has nothing in common with them" which is purest moon juice from top to bottom, side to side, and end to end), but they mightily distort, mislead, falsify, misdirect, and lead authors to reach wrong conclusions that they fail to correct.

The guy who goes to Fantasy Baseball Camp is one thing. The guy who goes to something that's labeled "No Kidding Real Thing Yankees Spring Training.... Actually, that gives me a great idea for a parody PA page. The page of a scam baseball camp:

"YankeesAmerica is NOT in any way a fantasy baseball camp and has nothing in common with them."

"YankeesAmerica pitcher Wayne Grimsby sent an autographed baseball to Laura Bush, who sent back a nice note and an 8x10 glossy photo of herself suitable for framing."

"Again, unparalleled among all traditional baseball teams each day an average 15 times a YankeesAmerica player appears in the news media, in newspapers, magazines, radio or TV."

"Now, a word of caution is in order. Sports arena availability is not necessarily the same as playing in a major league game. For a player to be on the field in a stadium, someone high in the hierarchy must decide to sign him. Typically, it's not the groundskeeper who makes such decisions, unless he owns his own field. Larger stadiums such as Fenway Park, Yankee Stadium, and Wrigley Field have "scouts" who select which players are to be in the starting rotation. Oftentimes, they want to see some noise happening before they move."

[Memphis Ed]

"YankeesAmerica is NOT in any way a fantasy baseball camp and has nothing in common with them."

"YankeesAmerica pitcher Wayne Grimsby sent an autographed baseball to Laura Bush, who sent back a nice note and an 8x10 glossy photo of herself suitable for framing."

"Again, unparalleled among all traditional baseball teams each day an average 15 times a YankeesAmerica player appears in the news media, in newspapers, magazines, radio or TV."


Jim-This is classic.

But too real....if a best selling author is the equivalent of a major league star, then an author with a "traditional" (in the REAL sense of the word) publisher is a major league player...maybe not a star yet, but in the league.

A self-published author is in the minor leagues for the time being, but perhaps being watched with a chance to go to the majors.

PA authors are playing ball in their neighborhood back yard. There may be some that are major league caliber, but they're not ever going to be scouted. The major league scouts don't know they're out there. They're hitting whiffle balls out of the park convincing each other that they're ready to play at Fenway.

[T42]

I think that the extreme loyalty you point out is the reason PA is so often compared to a cult. The PA "family" is a large group of perhaps 11,000 -- controlled and closely monitored by 3 (or maybe it's 6 now).
The chosen people are getting what they need -- validation of their work, tweaking of their egos, a sense of kinship and belonging, and a forum in which to feel cherished. All that is required of them in return is unquestioning, unfailing loyalty to their leaders -- as long as they're giving said leaders their money as well.

Cult-like? If it walks like a duck and it talks like a duck...Good morning everyone. I'm trying to catch up again. I think that many pa authors are really stuck between a rock and a hard spot because they probably was so excited about getting a book published that they immediately told everyone they knew. They probably were even questioned by some people as to why it was so easy since most people have heard if not tried how hard it is to get a book published and how many times you are rejected. So, most pa authors probably spent much time just defending pa before they even got started. Nobody wants to hear "I told you so". I read testimonials when I first was accepted and I remember reading a lot of them that said, "This is the first time I can remember my family being proud of me..." "This has to work because I quit my job and convinced my husband to let me work at home writing..." "This is the only choice I have ever made in my life that has turned out right..." "I have a friend that invested towards 500 books and this way we can both make money and I would have never had this opportunity somewhere else...."These testimonials went on and on. I remember thinking to myself how sad and yet I remember my hubby questioning how fast it was accepted and he really thinks my book is great and so do I, but I was just as shocked as him. I also fell right into the trap of, well they and but they and this is..... The only thing that may be different is that I have done things I'm proud of and don't mind telling people when I made the wrong choice and believe me, I had to write a lot of people that I had told about the books and tell them not to buy the book when it comes out. So, not only have these authors found common ground in the threads at pa but also they don't have to admit to friends and family that they were right or that they have been had. Pa set's up a safety net for them by letting them have something in common and keeping a tight reign on their feelings. (They know they will be banned if they talk about the negative of pa) I think personally that many of them are feeling the stress of having to pretend because it isn't something that can be hidden forever. I think most people feel trapped by pa but if they admit it too themselves then they have to admit it to all the other people that might say, "I told you so". Thank God, my friends and family aren't like that and have supported my fight against pa.

[Sher2]

PA authors are playing ball in their neighborhood back yard. There may be some that are major league caliber, but they're not ever going to be scouted. The major league scouts don't know they're out there. They're hitting whiffle balls out of the park convincing each other that they're ready to play at Fenway.
That pretty much says it all, Ed. Unfortunately, some of the players will become so adept at playing whiffle ball that they may never give up what they know and try out for even Little League.

[Sher2]

I read testimonials when I first was accepted and I remember reading a lot of them that said, "This is the first time I can remember my family being proud of me..." "This has to work because I quit my job and convinced my husband to let me work at home writing..." "This is the only choice I have ever made in my life that has turned out right..." "I have a friend that invested towards 500 books and this way we can both make money and I would have never had this opportunity somewhere else...."These testimonials went on and on.
I, alas, didn't read any testimonials. Instead, I read the stuff about bookstore placement, post-publication promotion, the 20% acceptance rate, etc. -- you know, all that stuff written by the snake-oil salesmen which is apt to change before your very eyes. If I'd read those testimonials, I'd have been reminded of ads for body-part enhancers and that would have been the end of that. My mother always told me I read too fast.

[T42]

FYI: I stole Anthony's keyboard. :thankyou:So I guess the vet doesn't have to make a stop here.


When a bookstore manager says, "I can't shelf your book because it's POD and non-returnable and too expensive," the manager isn't doing that to be an elitist jerk. He/she is telling you something of value: Here are the things your book needs to be stocked in my store.

Jenna thank God you found another way. The Vet was warned about putting anymore men down. (She was told that putting men to sleep was not allowed unless they opened their mouth. Apparently yours just spilled water...whole different story):Shrug:
It is funny that you would mention this because my battle started when the first person told me that they would not put my book in the store or let me do a signing because of who I was published with. I didn't have to go to several places to hear this and I didn't have to blame it on the manager. I knew I had been duked the first time I heard this. I wrote pa several letters and they always came back with the blame game. Even after I sent pa the letter from B&N they still insisted that this was a local manager. Because of this I have also sent B&N every letter pa has written me insisting that B&N buys the books and that this is only a local problem. My goal is to make B&N just as mad at them as I am. Maybe they will someday join our fight. I look at it like sooner or later pa will manage to ruin B&N good name if they let pa continue blaming them and I always point this out. Every time I send one I get a very nice thank you from them for sending it and I am assured each time that they are keeping all letters on file so I am hoping this is a good thing.

[Gratian Gasparri]

A number of people have raised a number of good issues, but I think these are questions we really need to ask PA authors. So here goes:

What was YOUR reaction when you first heard agents, professional author organizations, publishers, librarians, reviewers, journalists, Bill down at the 7-11, boostore owners, tell you that PA was a vanity publisher?

Was this before or after you signed with PA?

If you were initially reluctant to believe it, why?

[James D. Macdonald]

"YankeesAmerica is NOT in any way a fantasy baseball camp and has nothing in common with them."

So how does YankeesAmerica make a profit? After all, their motto is: "We don't want your money, we want your talent!"

It's true! They don't charge you anything to go to Spring Training. They'll even send you a $1 signing bonus, just like the big-name ballplayers get. Only 20% of those who apply are chosen to attend. They're picky!

But you'll be expected to buy your own bat, your own balls, your own glove, your own uniform, your own spikes -- at their store. Ever see a baseball that cost $19.95 before?

You aren't required to buy anything. It's just that if you don't, you'll spend all your time at YankeesAmerica sitting on the bench.

[T42]

I, alas, didn't read any testimonials. Instead, I read the stuff about bookstore placement, post-publication promotion, the 20% acceptance rate, etc. -- you know, all that stuff written by the snake-oil salesmen which is apt to change before your very eyes. If I'd read those testimonials, I'd have been reminded of ads for body-part enhancers and that would have been the end of that. My mother always told me I read too fast.I read all that stuff too but I like to jump right on into the story telling. It's like buying a book and sitting back with tea and brownies. What's amusing is that I kept looking for testimonials from people that had sold a lot of books, gotten big royalties and never saw any. These had to have been all newbies or ones that were still so far in denial that they thought they were in Egypt.:Ssh:

[Memphis Ed]

So how does YankeesAmerica make a profit? After all, their motto is: "We don't want your money, we want your talent!"

It's true! They don't charge you anything to go to Spring Training. They'll even send you a $1 signing bonus, just like the big-name ballplayers get.

But you'll be expected to buy your own bat, your own balls, your own glove, your own uniform, your own spikes -- at their store. Ever see a baseball that cost $19.95 before?

And the first time you ask "How come nobody's in the stands?", you're off the team.

[Sher2]

And the first time you ask "How come nobody's in the stands?", you're off the team.
Yeah, and you'd better not mess with the cheerleaders, either.;)

[T42]

Yeah, and you'd better not mess with the cheerleaders, either.;)Okay, but would the cheerleaders be Clopper, Curlem and Moe in their funky short skirts or would the cheerleaders be the followers?
I'm confused:Huh: :popcorn:

[Sher2]

A number of people have raised a number of good issues, but I think these are questions we really need to ask PA authors. So here goes:

What was YOUR reaction when you first heard agents, professional author organizations, publishers, librarians, reviewers, journalists, Bill down at the 7-11, boostore owners, tell you that PA was a vanity publisher?

Was this before or after you signed with PA?

If you were initially reluctant to believe it, why?
Initially, I believed the Web site hype which stated flat out, "We are in no way a vanity publisher." Within a month of signing the contract, I realized that was a pile of hooey. That's when I walked away. Well, I have little bitty feet; I don't walk so much as I sashay. So I just said double-damn (I said more, but that's all I'd better say here) and started trying to figure out how to get out of this mess and cook PA's goose at the same time.

I wasn't a bit surprised when I started seeing the negative reactions from agents, reviewers, etc. It was simply confirmation of what I'd already figured out, and incentive to not send MY "book" anywhere for review, sale, promotion, etc. In fact, I prayed for months and months that PA would lose my ms, the proofs would never come, and the whole deal would be nullified. My luck ain't that good, though.

So, the way I've dealt with it is to let my family and best friends buy their copies and then pray they won't mention it again. If I can maintain a continuum by producing another book from a legitimate publisher, that would be awesome. If not, I'll just plead permanent, fatal writer's block.

[Gratian Gasparri]

Yeah, and you'd better not mess with the cheerleaders, either.;)

Sorry, but any sports analogy breaks down where one is forced to imagine Shemp in a mini-skirt with pom-poms.

[Sher2]

Okay, but would the cheerleaders be Clopper, Curlem and Moe in their funky short skirts or would the cheerleaders be the followers?
I'm confused:Huh: :popcorn:
Well, the head cheerleader recently croaked. :Jump: The job is now being spread out among the wannabes and the Three. Curlem is the one in the little pink tulle skirt, Larry is the one who can't jump very high, and the one with the snake curling around her neck like the Queen of DeNial, that's Moe.

[Sher2]

Sorry, but any sports analogy breaks down where one is forced to imagine Shemp in a mini-skirt with pom-poms.
Awww, but he'd have looked so purrrrrrrrty!;)

[T42]

So, the way I've dealt with it is to let my family and best friends buy their copies and then pray they won't mention it again. If I can maintain a continuum by producing another book from a legitimate publisher, that would be awesome. If not, I'll just plead permanent, fatal writer's block.Everything you said! Except I forbid anyone to buy my book! My friends and family know that I am in to torture:whip: and I don't care if they are in a neck brace and have no arms or legs! I don't care that I will not make a dime on my book because neither will pa. I will continue to post reviews on my own book at amazon to let people know that I do not want my book to sell and that I am trying to get my book rights back! I am not the loser in this matter! Pa is and will remain so!:Clap:

[Sher2]

Everything you said! Except I forbid anyone to buy my book! My friends and family know that I am in to torture:whip: and I don't care if they are in a neck brace and have no arms or legs! I don't care that I will not make a dime on my book because neither will pa. I will continue to post reviews on my own book at amazon to let people know that I do not want my book to sell and that I am trying to get my book rights back! I am not the loser in this matter! Pa is and will remain so!:Clap:
You oughta stop torturing your family and friends, Mem, and put those skills to use where they'll do some good.;)

The way I see it, PA has already recouped their vanity fees from me. From here on out, they can take their .pdf file and stick it. They started this war and if they get their butts shot off, who cares?

[T42]

They started this war and if they get their butts shot off, who cares?A~No One
B~ No One
C~ No One
E~ All of the Above
I'm going to go with E~ All of the Above:D

[T42]

What happened to D? Who cares is the correct answer:)

[Dolan]

Ed, is it true that Mulligians keeps an Ambulance and a Hearst outside, as a part of their customer service program?

I've heard that neither driver will sign a contract to publish their stories with PA.

[Memphis Ed]

According to PA, there are 7 million hits a DAY on their board. Also, there are 11,000 HAPPY authors.

So why have only 20 posted on the "Praising PA" thread?

BTW, what happened to the chick in the nighty and the love-is-egg-shaped guy who got engaged over there and were having the campout? I rather enjoyed watching that train wreck and looking forward to the event itself.

[Sher2]

According to PA, there are 7 million hits a DAY on their board. Also, there are 11,000 HAPPY authors.

So why have only 20 posted on the "Praising PA" thread?

BTW, what happened to the chick in the nighty and the love-is-egg-shaped guy who got engaged over there and were having the campout? I rather enjoyed watching that train wreck and looking forward to the event itself.
Maybe we could take up a collection to buy a booby prize for the first person who can answer that question. Question #1, that is. As for question #2, I'm trying to wean myself off train wrecks.;)

[Medievalist]

According to PA, there are 7 million hits a DAY on their board. Also, there are 11,000 HAPPY authors.

It's somewhat disingenuous for PA to talk about "hits" as a measure of site activity. Every time an image on a page is loaded, that's a hit. If the page has five images on it, that's six hits, one for the images, and one for the text. If a visitor, for what ever reason, reloads the page, that's six more hits.

A real measure would be how many unique visitors and how many of those visitors are repeat visitors.

And how many are still coming back after a year.

[Sher2]

My favorite thing to see when I open the refrigerator would be Clopper, Curlem and Moe-Randa's picture on the back of a milk carton.
Mem, this would mean they're only "Missing." We don't want 'em missing, we want 'em where we can keep an eye on them, maybe poke them with sticks every now and then.

I'm locked up in my den with Stevie Ray Vaughan and Rebecca Wells, chocolate chip cookies, and a pot of Community coffee. Life is pretty dang good. I ask you, what more could a girl want? Well, maybe one thing...;)

[bluwinteryfox]

What was YOUR reaction when you first heard agents, professional author organizations, publishers, librarians, reviewers, journalists, Bill down at the 7-11, boostore owners, tell you that PA was a vanity publisher?
I was directed to Mindsight by none other than Shemp. I can't remember what the thread on the PBMB was, but he was ranting about mindsight and that other place. I'd never heard of Mindsight and since the address wasn't give, I started searching. It was on Mindsight that I learned what this other place was.


Was this before or after you signed with PA?
After

If you were initially reluctant to believe it, why?
I started readiing both Mindsight and AW and decided to become a member. To tell the truth I wasn't too surprised to learn what I did. I'd had a few problems with Author NonSupport not replying to emails.

[Gratian Gasparri]

One of the things that bugs me about some of the PA logic (like the threads chang linked) is that it always seems to come down to, "Everyone in the publishing world is wrong! Someday they'll be begging for our books!"


Not to sound picky, especially since my own spelling and grammar is far from perfect, but shouldn't that be "Everyone in the publishing world is wrong!"[TM]? "Someday they'll be begging for our books!"[TM]? :D

[Patricia]

I think we're leaving out the folks who honestly thought this was what real publishing was all about, that this was an honest small press (it is a small press under the New York Times' definition) no different from Seven Stories Press or Newmarket Press, and that their submission-acceptance-editing-printing was what any other author experienced.


Thanks, Jim, for your continued support. Also, to Jenna, Ed and others who realize that not all PA authors are "stipid" or deserving of their plight.
----------------

I canceled my event for today; and while trying to catch up on the posts this morning, come across the negative light on the authors trapped in PA's fraud contract.

It's one thing to clown around and kid about the naivety of the authors. However, to lump all of them together in one pot and call them ALL "stipid" is unfair. The people who post regularity on the PA boards represent a small percentage of PA authors.

Some PA authors will eventually get their rights back and go on to be successful at their craft -- perhaps even great at it -- let's try to remember there are some people who lurk and read our post who are hurt and reeling from the fraud and hurt of PA -- and need us to encourage them. Most of those, who knew what they were getting into, readily admit it on the PA boards. Just consider, please, those who did not. There are authors in this very forum who have fought back and have proven the theory that even "PA" had the opportunity to turn out a best seller.

Go easy on the authors please, there may be some sensitive ones lurking. Remember it is PA we are at war with, not the authors. I'm not talking about the rah, rah teams that help lure the unsuspecting. I'm speaking of the ones sitting quietly in the background watching, waiting, and hoping for the day that PA goes down and they are free.

[Gratian Gasparri]

You aren't required to buy anything. It's just that if you don't, you'll spend all your time at YankeesAmerica sitting on the bench.

Or you could come sit on my bench at PlayersFirst Podcast -- for a small donation of course. On a good day, we even boast more talent scouts than advertisers!

[Sher2]

Go easy on the authors please, there may be some sensitive ones lurking. Remember it is PA we are at war with, not the authors. I'm not talking about the rah, rah teams that help lure the unsuspecting. I'm speaking of the ones sitting quietly in the background watching, waiting, and hoping for the day that PA goes down and they are free.

Mea culpa, Ann. I do try to be mindful of those who innocently got caught up in the scam. Sometimes my fingers get away from me when they see a keyboard, but I do appreciate that there are tender feelings which need to be protected and nurtured. Those who have wised up to the nature of the PA beast, however, should be here, where they will have a strong and unfettered voice.

[Dolan]

When I received the 50 copy order of my own book before it was released, I rushed right over to my local Borders in Lee's Summit, MO.

They bought five copies and stocked the book right up there with the other war books. Since they took the book, I decided to hit every bookstore in the Kansas City area. Before I had walked back to my car, a wave of depression hit me. Really.

I thought, "Well, this is just wrong. I'm not supposed to be pitching my own book to stores. PA is the one that gets all of the money, not me." I have never and I never will approach another bookstore with my book in my hand.

BTW that Borders store manager put my book on some kind of automatic re-order thing. They maintain 2 copies on the shelf all the time. They do that with a lot of war books.

[T42]

Life is pretty dang good. I ask you, what more could a girl want? Well, maybe one thing...;)A hamster?

[Patricia]

Those who have wised up to the nature of the PA beast, however, should be here, where they will have a strong and unfettered voice.

Sher, I hear what you are saying and can tell you that there are some who are fighting PA who are not on these forums. Some are not comfortable going public with the fight or perhaps for legal reasons, cannot. That does not mean they are not appreciative of what we are doing, and are watching to cheer us on silently.

[Savannah Blue]

Everything you said! Except I forbid anyone to buy my book! My friends and family know that I am in to torture:whip: and I don't care if they are in a neck brace and have no arms or legs! I don't care that I will not make a dime on my book because neither will pa. I will continue to post reviews on my own book at amazon to let people know that I do not want my book to sell and that I am trying to get my book rights back! I am not the loser in this matter! Pa is and will remain so!:Clap:

Well said, Mem! I asked people not to buy my not-quite-ready-for-primetime-book, too. Did some good, but a few bought it anyway. I'd be lying if I said it didn't give me a thrill when people wrote back to me telling me they loved it. I just wish it could have been a 'real' book in a 'real' bookstore and the profits from it not going to line the pockets of such horrible people. Oh well, live and learn.

[Canada James]

I think we're leaving out the folks who honestly thought this was what real publishing was all about, that this was an honest small press (it is a small press under the New York Times' definition) ...

I'd be interested in the definition. My understanding is that while PA (because it's POD) meets the criteria in number of print runs, it certainly does not in number of titles "published" per year.

Canada James

[Canada James]

What was YOUR reaction when you first heard agents, professional author organizations, publishers, librarians, reviewers, journalists, Bill down at the 7-11, bookstore owners, tell you that PA was a vanity publisher?


They didn't then, and they don't now. PA is still very much an unheard of company, save for a very few individuals.

Actually, Jim was the first person to tell me that PA was not real commercial publishing.

Canada James

[Sher2]

When I received the 50 copy order of my own book before it was released, I rushed right over to my local Borders in Lee's Summit, MO.

They bought five copies and stocked the book right up there with the other war books. Since they took the book, I decided to hit every bookstore in the Kansas City area. Before I had walked back to my car, a wave of depression hit me. Really.

I thought, "Well, this is just wrong. I'm not supposed to be pitching my own book to stores. PA is the one that gets all of the money, not me." I have never and I never will approach another bookstore with my book in my hand.

BTW that Borders store manager put my book on some kind of automatic re-order thing. They maintain 2 copies on the shelf all the time. They do that with a lot of war books.
It's a shame, Dolan, but at least by doing PA's job for them, you managed to do something. A lot of people don't even make it that far. You get a big heads up for that. :Thumbs:

[Sher2]

Sher, I hear what you are saying and can tell you that there are some who are fighting PA who are not on these forums. Some are not comfortable going public with the fight or perhaps for legal reasons, cannot. That does not mean they are not appreciative of what we are doing, and are watching to cheer us on silently.
I know, Ann. I just hope they know we're cheering them on, too. They may be silent, but we know they're out there and need all the help they can get.:)

[Canada James]

But you'll be expected to buy your own bat, your own balls, your own glove, your own uniform, your own spikes -- at their store. Ever see a baseball that cost $19.95 before?

Dear Mr. MacDOnald,
Your comments about our company are so short on facts that it is actually comedy. To refute them would be so easy that we may as well have one of our juniour staffers do it, but since you have been so misinformed and are using a tone that we don't allow taken with us, I shall tell you what is in truth the truth.

(1) All of our games played stadium are played in brick and martor stadiums.
(2) You don't have to equipment because YankeesAmerica never charges its players a dime (although some players may, from time to time, choose to enjoy one of our player specials. But they are in no way obligated to purchase equipment at any time.)

Player Support Team.
Untraceable Person Who May or May Not Still Work Here

[Sher2]

A hamster?
I ain't touchin' that.;)

Clearly, I'm not reading. I am rockin' in my chair with Stevie Ray. And thinking about writing my next chapter, which I may do tomorrow.

[Patricia]

...and her efforts. She has, I believe she said, 20 years of research in her book? Is that correct, Mem? And she is (her :) words), using tough love.

Funny that backfires on me! People buy the book to see why I don't want them to buy it! So, my game plan is to finish my obligations previously agreed -- then go silent. I mean not talking about, or mentioning the book in any way. It will be officially dead, as far as I'm concerned.

The traffic on my website has all but died, since I stopped promotions. I am getting ready to change it and declare that my book is no longer available and state why I cannot and will not recommend PA as a publisher or vanity press.