Archive of the NEPAT [Archive] - Page 59 - Absolute Write Water Cooler

Canada James

04-05-2005, 04:50 AM

LS has pretty good quality control ... I've had LS reprint several hundred books because the initial run didn't meet their standards, and I've experienced LS courteously volunteering to replace several boxes of manuals that slipped through their QA.

I have no doubt that LS is a good company to deal with. My comment was more as the bookseller, having to return poorly made books to the publisher. The general chain of command (so to speak) goes: printer=publisher=bookstore. We're not going to return books to the printer, whatever happened that they fell apart is between the publisher and them. Our concern is the ease at which we can exchange poorly made books to the publisher.

That's why I think these conversations often take a silly turn when they go into the "poorly made product" scenarios. PA isn't LS's only customer, after all, and comments to that effect aren't about PA in the slightest.

LS is just a printer, folks. They're just doing the job they were contracted to do. The policies of their customers are not their concern.

C. James

Canada James

04-05-2005, 04:56 AM

If you say P.A. doesn't edit, I'm fine with that. That doesn't, and shouldn't reflect on a work that has an author behind it who cares about the end product.

Hey Ken,

This is exactly why I voted to have two definitions of "editing" when discussing PA vs. Real Publishing.

Editing is more than just checking for spelling/grammar. It's offering advice on making characters a little stronger, expanding transitions between scenes, and, in general, turning a good product into a great, saleable product.

There's a *world* of difference between PA Editing and Real Publishing Editing.

C. James

Gravity

04-05-2005, 05:04 AM

....that everyone obtain and read "Ten Percent of Nothing." If y'all want a book that's a blueprint on how literary scams operate (and why they ultimately get tripped up in the end), you owe it to yourselves to read this book. You can take the entire history of the Deering scam, compare it with what's going on at PA, and see a lot of interesting similiarities. I even believe that you can ascertain where PA is in the "literary scam life cycle" just by reading this book.

Saint Ed

http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/engel/angel-smiley-027.gif

So, without having to buy the book (yes, I'm cheap; so shoot me) where DOES the mighty pirate ship the SS PA rank on the Deering Scale of Incomprehensible Sleaze? Is their star still rising? Holding firm? Or (let it be, Lord) on that fatal downward swing? Are talking years left for Stooges, months, weeks, what?

Inquiring minds want to know...

John

Susan Gable

04-05-2005, 05:05 AM

If you say P.A. doesn't edit, I'm fine with that. That doesn't, and shouldn't reflect on a work that has an author behind it who cares about the end product.
Ken

Ken, I'm not picking on ya, okay? :)

But I have a question for you.

Consumers like to know that they're getting. So, how are they to know that your PA book is a cut above the majority of the other PA books? Especially when they don't get many opportunities to pick the book up off the shelf and browse through it?

See, this is one of the big advantages to publishing with a major publisher. The consumer has faith that the process has played out, the book has been edited, it's worthy of their purchase. (That doesn't mean it's necessarily so - yes, there are books everyone wonders about - subjectivity comes into play, for one thing.) But overall, there's a stamp of approval on the book that comes from the publisher.

For me, it means that people who know about the Superromance line of books from Harlequin know what kind of read they're going to get, and they have enough faith in the line to pick up a book by a new author they don't know and take a chance on it - because the book has the Harlequin Superromance stamp of approval on it.

Again that doesn't mean there isn't such a thing as a poor Superromance in some people's eyes. (Though I'm sure our editors would deny such a thing. <G>) But it gives the reader something to go on.

Personally, I am a super-picky writer. I care about my end product, too. I refuse to churn out cra*. Just won't do it. Can't. Doesn't mesh with my personality. But the readers don't know that. It doesn't say on my cover, "This book written by an author who takes her craft seriously to the extreme, a Type-A personality author."

The only way a reader can know that is to pick up one of my books and read it. And the "stamp of approval" of my publisher's name on the book helps to make that happen.

Does that make any sense? :Huh:

Susan G.

Ken Schneider

04-05-2005, 05:21 AM

Yes, I agree, no one get to see my book, and that's what gripes me.

I put all the effort into the book to make it what it should be, and no one will ever know it.

My point was, because (P.A. printed it) doesn't make it bad. As you said, who will ever know.

Yes, I understand where you are comig from.

realitychuck

04-05-2005, 05:28 AM

Editing is more than just checking for spelling/grammar. It's offering advice on making characters a little stronger, expanding transitions between scenes, and, in general, turning a good product into a great, saleable product.

There's a *world* of difference between PA Editing and Real Publishing Editing.
Exactly.

With real book editing, the editor will do what many newbies irrationally fear: make suggestions on how to improve the work. A good editor works with the author to make the book even better (they do not, however, rewrite anything -- they ask you to do it). I really don't understand any author who doesn't want that, yet you always hear aspiring writers afraid that the editor will actually do something and ruin their book.

The editor wants the book to succeed, and it is worth a lot to have a professional look over your work to help you write better.

JennaGlatzer

04-05-2005, 05:40 AM

PS to Chang: don't know if people have snatched up your 10 copies yet, but if not, post a quick description of your book! I'd love to help you out but am up to my earballs in deadlines and backlogged books for review; however, I'm sure there are others here who'd be up for critiquing.

victoriastrauss

04-05-2005, 05:52 AM

My point was, because (P.A. printed it) doesn't make it bad. As you said, who will ever know.That is the flip side of the whole we'll-print-anything vanity scenario, and worth saying again: PA (like other vanities) will accept excellent work as happily as it'll accept poor work.

Getting published by PA doesn't mean your book is bad. It does mean it hasn't been tested in the marketplace. So you're still at zero, where you began: you don't yet know if your work is commercially viable.

- Victoria

Ken Schneider

04-05-2005, 05:54 AM

Back cover Blurb. The Scent of Magnolias and Men isbn#1413734421

Civil War-era Memphis percolates with illicit entanglements and scandal as pillars of wealth and privilege routinely cover up scintillating indiscretions. Buck Harris is a victim of unthinkable deceit, but swears he will marry his childhood sweetheart, Josephine Parker, and kill Leslie Turnbull, his spiteful half-brother. Buck’s mission of love and revenge is righteous, but in the process, he frees ugly family skeletons from secret hiding places and turns Memphis’ grand society upside down. When that happens, anyone is fair game, and his enemies are hunting for places to hide.

I call it romantic adventure.

Literary Lola

04-05-2005, 06:11 AM

If you say P.A. doesn't edit, I'm fine with that. That doesn't, and shouldn't reflect on a work that has an author behind it who cares about the end product.
Ken
At the risk of further inciting your ire, this attitude concerns me because it sounds like the typical PA line. Please know that I hold you in the highest respect and wish only for your success. But I have to admit that I'm confused.

You believe that the PA's lack of editing shouldn't reflect on a work of an author who cares about the end product. I don't understand this. If you care about the end product, then you should care about the fact that your work isn't receiving the benefits of a proper edit. As a result, your book will never see the light of day, or worse, ridiculed. That is a terrifying thought for any writer.

In order to tell a story well, one needs to communcate effectively. In order to do that, they need to be edited. Do you think Publisher's Weekly cares about the author's intent? Of course not. They care about what's written on the pages and how well it's told. That is why they don't review PA's books. They know PA doesn't give a hoot about editing.

Good intentions don't make a best seller. A well-written, tightly edited story does. And you can only gain that by either being with a publisher who has a strong editing department, or employing a professional editor that has publishing experience. You'll do your writing a huge favor by understanding this.

Okay, this is my last word on the subject (the crowd goes wild). I only wish you the best.

Gratian Gasparri

04-05-2005, 06:17 AM

Funny, I thought those books disintegrated because the kids read them over and over again. ;)

This also explains why PA children's books are so durable!

lindylou45

04-05-2005, 06:22 AM

If you say P.A. doesn't edit, I'm fine with that. That doesn't, and shouldn't reflect on a work that has an author behind it who cares about the end product.

Ken

You're absolutely right, Ken, it shouldn't. Unfortunately, it does. The bookstores that I approached with my first book didn't even look at the book, they knew the publisher and its reputation for poor quality editing and lenient acceptance standards, and that was long before Atlanta Nights came out. Does that mean your book is of poor quality? No, absolutely not! What it does mean is that a PA author can do everything in his/her power to make the ms look good to a publisher, but if it's sent to the wrong publisher all the editing by all the professionals in the world won't matter.

It's sort of like having a certain religion or being of a certain political affiliation. You may not agree with everything that organization stands for, but overall, you will be seen and judged as one of its members. So if, for example, Random House is the Republican party and Harper/Collins is the democratic party, what does that make PA? They're like the porn star who ran for governor of California -- they're the joke of the publishing business. (Sorry, Uncle Jim, I know you hate analogies). As a result PA authors are going to have to work ten times, hell, a hundred times harder than anyone else to get a bookstore to look past the reputation of their publisher.

I haven't read your book, but I'm sure it's a good one. Good luck to you in your writing career. You deserve it. We all deserve it. :LilLove:

Ken Schneider

04-05-2005, 06:25 AM

Victoria, True.

Lola, I meant to say, that my work was edited before they recieved it. Though, not by a big publisher's novel editor. I made an effort to have the book in proper form before sending it so it didn't reflect poorly on me when those who did read it, read it.
I'm only thinking along the lines of, don't judge a book buy its cover.

The cover has P.A. on it, so it is assumed the book is no good.

It is not the best book ever written, and it isn't the worst, that I am sure of.

I'm also done with this subject.

Canada James

04-05-2005, 06:41 AM

In order to tell a story well, one needs to communcate effectively. In order to do that, they need to be edited. Do you think Publisher's Weekly cares about the author's intent? Of course not. They care about what's written on the pages and how well it's told. That is why they don't review PA's books. They know PA doesn't give a hoot about editing.

Just to help clarify the issue:

When PA authors see the word "edit" they have a *completely* different picture in their minds than do the authors who have been through a Real Trade Publisher Edit.

C. James

Sher2

04-05-2005, 06:45 AM

Jaws

04-05-2005, 06:49 AM

There was a provision in the Press-Tige contract that in the event of bankruptcy, rights would immediately revert back to the authors. In fact, a provision like this may not mean anything, because the courts may consider publishing contracts to be assets that could be used to satisfy creditors. It doesn't matter if the contracts are of dubious value (as they'll usually be with a vanity publisher, because of the lack of editorial screening)--they are still going to get tied up in the disposition of the case. With Press-Tige, the situation was complicated by the fact that there was fraud involved in the bankruptcy filing.This is, if anything, an understatement. The ipso facto clause (rights returned upon filing for bankruptcy) is meaningless and barred by 11 U.S.C. § 362, which has only been in effect since 1978. These clauses are leftovers from possibly effective, but generally denied, clauses that applied to patents (but not copyrights) under the Bankruptcy Act of 1898.

A smart aleck might ask "what about a clause that says the publisher has to return the rights before filing for bankruptcy?" That won't do any good, because such a transfer would be a preference if done within the 90-day period preceding filing (or one year if the debtor/publisher was technically insolvent, and even longer if dones with intent to subvert the orderly administration of bankruptcy… which is exactly what it would be). Preferences may be avoided by the trustee as if they never happened.

I have a great deal of difficulty understanding why the publishing industry allows these clauses to remain in contracts, even those offered today. I suspect it's because most attorneys who take intellectual property courses in law school tend not to take bankruptcy, and vice versa; there are too many courses that everybody needs to take, and a bankruptcy class really requires a lot of other prerequisites to get a lot of value out of it. There's even an argument (and some case law) that willful inclusion of these clauses may be evidence of intent to interfere with bankruptcy administration; but that's for another time.

JennaGlatzer

04-05-2005, 06:57 AM

:Smack: Is it just me, or are a lot of people not reading past posts before responding to something?

Okay, to summarize: Chang actually gives a cr*ap about his readers, so he took matters into his own hands and hired an English professor to edit his book before PA published it. I think that's great. And without knowing this particular professor, I can still say that there are two of my own college English professors who I'd trust to edit my books any day... I've worked with more than a dozen book editors now, and those two professors would have done a better job than many of them. I know there's certain experience that comes with being an editor, but much of it is intuitive as well, and a skill set that overlaps with teaching.

What I don't know here is whether Chang is talking about developmental editing, copyediting, or both, which is what C James is mentioning. (Chang: developmental editing is when an editor critiques the whole book, makes suggestions about the plot, where to tighten it, which characters need more work, etc. Copyediting is primarily fixing up the grammar, spelling, and consistency. If you feel like answering, go right ahead; if you're sick of the topic, no problem.)

The frustrating part, though, is that Chang keeps repeating the circumstance and the fact that he UNDERSTANDS that his book's reputation gets tarnished because of who published it and that he wants to move on to a real publisher who will, among other things, actually edit the book without his having to pay for it.

So maybe we could move past that part? Thanks in advance. :Thumbs:

Ed Williams

04-05-2005, 06:59 AM

So, without having to buy the book (yes, I'm cheap; so shoot me) where DOES the mighty pirate ship the SS PA rank on the Deering Scale of Incomprehensible Sleaze? Is their star still rising? Holding firm? Or (let it be, Lord) on that fatal downward swing? Are talking years left for Stooges, months, weeks, what?

Inquiring minds want to know...

JohnGravity, just an opinion - the Deering Agency hit a point in the life of their scam where some obvious tell tale signs cropped up that should have suggested to them that things couldn't continue as they had been. More and more authors were becoming upset over being scammed and were striking back, they were contacting/hiring attornies, reporting the Deerings to governmental agencies, and the like. The Deerings were also visited by a few of their authors, and those situations did not go well at all. The biggest problem they had was that they'd gotten so accustomed to having lots of money coming in that when the pressure on them increased, they responded by trying to get even more writers to sign with them. That response can only be explained in one of two ways - they either were too stupid to realize that the scam was about to die, or they figured they'd better get all the money they could before rigor mortis set in.

PA, in my opinion, has taken some serious public relations hits recently. Not that long ago they were churning out 200-300 books a week, and this has dropped to 70-100 over the past several weeks. They have to be feeling some financial pinch, and I think that was underlined by their recent offer of "no editing services" to their new authors (PA has to be the only "publisher" in the world to not offer a standard service and tout it as a benefit). I think PA has conned enough people and has gotten enough bad exposure to be in the "slowly sinking" mode right now. How they react in the coming weeks/months will determine their future - they will either try to perpetuate the scam utilizing any tactics they can, or they might see the light and reform some of their business practices. I know what I think they'll do, but it'll be interesting to find out. I think we can all safely say that the next few months are going to be pivotal ones for PA.

On another subject, lindylou45 said:

They're like the porn star who ran for governor of California -- they're the joke of the publishing business.That's Mary Carey, she ran for governor because of the publicity, and it definitely helped her out. Believe it or not, she seems to be a very nice young woman, a few months ago she sent me a complete set of her DVDs because I'd mentioned her in one of my columns. She also asked me to look her up if I ever get out to LA. Where were invites like this when I was twenty?

writerjenn

04-05-2005, 07:04 AM

For the record, we did sleep together and it was hot. I can't believe you don't remember that steamy igloo north of Saskatoon, eh?

If it was hot, I'd remember it!

writerjenn

04-05-2005, 07:09 AM

....On a completely different note - Kev, if you and ZaZ are having all this fun, I insist on being y'alls chaperone. Y'all need someone of sterling character and discernment to help guide you, someone who has never gazed lustfully at a woman in his entire life, and someone who knows where you can get a fifty broken into ones really quickly!

Saint Ed

http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/engel/angel-smiley-027.gif

Yep, that's all we need... someone else in the igloo! And one full of chit at that!

:wag: Jenn

Literary Lola

04-05-2005, 07:09 AM

Just to help clarify the issue:

When PA authors see the word "edit" they have a *completely* different picture in their minds than do the authors who have been through a Real Trade Publisher Edit.

C. James
Yes, I realize that, CJ. I covered what I meant by editing a couple posts back so there would be no ambiguities.

DaveKuzminski

04-05-2005, 07:15 AM

PA, in my opinion, has taken some serious public relations hits recently. Not that long ago they were churning out 200-300 books a week, and this has dropped to 70-100 over the past several weeks. They have to be feeling some financial pinch, and I think that was underlined by their recent offer of "no editing services" to their new authors (PA has to be the only "publisher" in the world to not offer a standard service and tout it as a benefit).

Based upon the statistics from the poll in the Take It Outside area, it appears that about 20% of PA writers self-purchase as many as 200 or more books in an attempt to prime the pump or the belief that they can sell that many on their own. They are the writers we must reach if PA is to be stopped in its tracks.

By PA's own admission, just about 10% of their books do not sell any copies. Our own poll shows that to be over 20%, but I think we're seeing a large influx of authors from that category into the AW. It makes sense that a larger number from that group would migrate here. They're the least fooled by PA, so they're not quite as embarrassed. However, I suspect this means that the other percentages are actually higher.

What we need to do is identify the sites that new writers find first other than PA so that we can convince those sites to post warnings. Then we need to double our efforts to see to it that PA's search engine results follow those of the results revealing the truth about their operations.

By the way, there is a strong possibility that we have impacted PA heavily. In other words, they're making about one-third as much now.

HConn

04-05-2005, 07:22 AM

That's Mary Carey, she ran for governor because of the publicity, and it definitely helped her out. Believe it or not, she seems to be a very nice young woman, a few months ago she sent me a complete set of her DVDs because I'd mentioned her in one of my columns. She also asked me to look her up if I ever get out to LA. Where were invites like this when I was twenty?

Hey, um, Ed...

If you're not gonna watch those DVDs, PM me, okay? I might be able to find a home for them.

With a friend. (ahem).

DaveKuzminski

04-05-2005, 07:22 AM

Of course! There's a strong possibility that the stooges have let Janet and Jessica buy into the partnership because they need more money to prop it up and get past what they hope are only bad times!

If the pressure remains high, PA's pirate ship is sunk because it can't continue to take on water faster than the staff can bail.

JDElder

04-05-2005, 07:26 AM

Ken, I am with you a hundred percent. I know exactly how you feel.

For the record, I'll be the first one to gladly admit that I have technical writing issues. It is something that I really have to work hard at because that aspect of the craft doesn’t come easily to me. Let’s put it this way, I am not afraid of someone editing my book "professionally." In fact, I would be very happy if someone professionally edited my work because I could then focus on the areas that I believe I excel at- story and characterization. I would be more than ecstatic to have an editor to bounce ideas off .

I also had someone else read through the book before I submitted it to make sure the storyline made sense and catch any problems ahead of time.

The day I read the AP story on PA (on PA’s website of all places) it was an eye-opening experience for a couple reasons. When you are that intimately involved in something that you’ve worked on for a long time, it is hard to objectively read through it. The first time I reviewed the proofs of the book I found 15 mistakes. Little did I know it was only the tip of the iceberg. I only caught the most glaring and obvious ones.

I hadn’t looked at the book at all since I received the author copies right before Christmas and did a quick skim through it. After the AP story, I read through it again. I’m sure you all at one time have experienced that awful feeling in the pit of your stomach. It was terrible. The chapter number errors. I found a huge continuity error. 73 mistakes in all. I felt like crawling under a rock. My mother wanted to donate the thing to my hometown library and there was no chance in hell that I was going to let her do that. At that point I was more than ready to chuck the whole thing and chalk it up to a bad experience.

The next day though I realized that I couldn’t let it go. I couldn't let 16 months of work get flushed down the drain. I fought like hell to get the book done in the first place. It was probably the final straw that brought down my first marriage. My ex-wife was less than enthusiastic about me doing this and the book was a major flashpoint of discontent between us. Through a lot of trial and tribulation, I somehow moved heaven and earth and finished it. In the end, I simply couldn’t let it go. I fought to write it and I was going to fight to get it out in a form that I could live with. I spent pretty much rest of that night going through each every word, sentence, and paragraph and fixed everything that I could. It was a week before the release date when I sent my first email to PA’s support. I did not rant and rave or threaten them or act overly confrontational. I kept it cool and kept it to the facts concerning my expectations and understanding of the editing process vs. the obvious lack of editing done on the book. My first response was the standard boilerplate spin about the AP. I pressed on and after three or four emails was referred to the editing department. A couple more emails later I sent a huge email detailing every single change that needed to be made. Two days later, I received an email back advising that the changes would be made. Four days later, I was advised that the changes were done and that any book subsequently printed would be the corrected version. In the end, I lucked out. At the most, a couple copies of the book went out with all the mistakes in it.

And why am I telling you this?

First off, I’m grateful for the efforts of many people on this board. If it weren’t for the AP report I wouldn’t have even thought about rereading the book thoroughly until it was way too late.

Secondly, it might explain my passionate rants about this thing being judged on its merits and not as “another PA book.” Why? Because for better for worse, I take full responsibility in the end for the final presentation of the book. Is the prose polished to a fine sheen? No. Do I think it still works? Yes. And if it doesn't, I’ll look like Albert Brooks in the movie “Defending Your Life” without Rip Torn to defend me.

So Kev, James, Ed, Bard, Allen, Sean, and everyone else who has been kind enough to throw their wisdom and advice in my direction, I thank you very much. I wear my heart on my sleeve at times and I appreciate you all allowing me to do so. The reason I am here and not on the PA boards is because as a result of this journey that I've embarked on over the past two years I have come to the realization that I want to try to take the next step. I'm done talking and ruminating about PA and I choose to forge on. I learn from my experiences and work to do even better. I now have a wife who is more than willing to support me in every way possible during this endeavor and I am forever grateful that I was blessed to find a wonderful person to walk down this road with. The next time you'll hear from me will be a few notches down in the "Share Your Work" section of the website as we start down a new and exciting path.

Ken Schneider

04-05-2005, 07:31 AM

Jenna,
Beyond spelling and grammar, we talked about p.o.v., how the story- book was moving too fast, fleshing out the characters. We also cut around 5,000 words that didn't move the story along- weren't needed. Um... lets see. Show, don't tell. We also talked about building relationships between characters before throwing them into a scene that was unrealistic for their relationship. I'm sure there is more that we spoke of, I don't recall just now.

lindylou45

04-05-2005, 07:36 AM

:Smack: Is it just me, or are a lot of people not reading past posts before responding to something?
So maybe we could move past that part? Thanks in advance. :Thumbs:

Is it just me, or does it seem that people are a bit snippy today? Sorry, I'll be sure to read everything before posting again.

And Ed,

Sorry to offend the porn star. :gone:

JennaGlatzer

04-05-2005, 07:45 AM

WhisperingBard

04-05-2005, 07:48 AM

JD,

Nice post.

I now have a wife who is more than willing to support me in every way possible during this endeavor and I am forever grateful that I was blessed to find a wonderful person to walk down this road with.

I am similarly blessed. I have a husband who supports my writing 100% and it makes all the difference in the world. Congrats again on your recent marriage.

Re: PA's new "partners." Is it possible they're adding on new ones in the hopes of spreading around the blame when the end finally comes? Or perhaps they're setting up the new partners so the Big Three can abscond before things get any hotter?

Just musing.

KellyS.

04-05-2005, 08:02 AM

While I don't think there were many grammatical or spelling errors in my PA book, I know that it would have greatly benefited from some content editing. Now, am I dead sure on the very few spelling and grammatical errors? Nope, just haven't heard too much feedback on it.

Feedback...hmmmm, what a word. You see when they accepted my book I thought I was getting feedback. I thought they were saying it was decent. Well hardy, har, har, the joke was on me. I'm still at square one.

The sad thing is I know there have to be many PA books that are really good. I feel bad for those who may ditch writing due to low sales figures. Sometimes there is a need to take emotion out of the equation, but it can be really hard to do. Pa callously plays on emotions.

Chang-from the blurb you posted, your book sounds interesting.

Kelly

Sher2

04-05-2005, 08:06 AM

Re: PA's new "partners." Is it possible they're adding on new ones in the hopes of spreading around the blame when the end finally comes? Or perhaps they're setting up the new partners so the Big Three can abscond before things get any hotter?

Just musing.
Bard, I think you may well have hit the nail on the head. I honestly don't see how things could get much hotter without their simply spontaneously combusting. It's got to be approaching critical mass. Something's got to give.

Gratian Gasparri

04-05-2005, 08:25 AM

Bard, I think you may well have hit the nail on the head. I honestly don't see how things could get much hotter without their simply spontaneously combusting. It's got to be approaching critical mass. Something's got to give.

I think the reason they have added new partners was because they hope to give new meaning to the expression vanity publisher. Just think, "For a symbolic financial investment of $1, you too can be a publisher!"

They may even change their name to PartnerAmerica.

Sher2

04-05-2005, 08:30 AM

I think the reason they have added new partners was because they hope to give new meaning to the expression vanity publisher. Just think, "For a symbolic financial investment of $1, you too can be a publisher!"

They may even change their name to PartnerAmerica.
Lord Almighty, there's a partnership made in hell. It's too unholy to even think about.

MartyKay

04-05-2005, 08:38 AM

On the topic of the "editing"/"non-editing" streams...

I noticed the comments earlier (much much earlier) about PA and how it hires new graduates to do the alleged editing work. Now, if PA is saying it will either edit the book and will take much longer to get out, or not edit the book and the author gets it "published" much earlier, I think I know why.

They want to sack a bunch of the editors. I don't think they have that many now, and from all the other commentary the ones they do have aren't professionals. Even so I've seen lots of comments on the PA boards about how long it takes for a book to come out, so these editors are probably flat out (running spell check in Word :) ).

If they offer the no-edit stream, they will be able to do two things at once -- cut costs by hiring fewer editors, and eliminate criticism of their lack of editing ability because I think they will push for the "no-edit" stream, maybe even offer some kind of bonus for using it. Then authors complaining about the lack of editing will be given the "don't take that tone, YOU edited it!" letter (still being written up).

(apologies if anyone else has already mentioned this possible rationale)

Why would they need to cut editorial staff, even though they don't HIRE professional editors and probably don't pay much more than minimum wage (if that)? Could they be having... money troubles???

Patricia

04-05-2005, 09:37 AM

They want to sack a bunch of the editors. I don't think they have that many now, and from all the other commentary the ones they do have aren't professionals. Even so I've seen lots of comments on the PA boards about how long it takes for a book to come out, so these editors are probably flat out (running spell check in Word :) ).

You make a good point. Another thought is that there have been many on the PA boards saying they were going to hire professional editors before submitting their next ms. I think PA is taking advantage of those people doing so to get out of any conflict that would reflect back on their poor editing/revision methods. In thinking about it, if PA authors hire professionals, it makes PA look good with no effort on their part and certainly no out of pocket money for them.

I think it's great. To the innocent eyes it makes them look more like what they are -- V-A-N-I-T-Y! They are so "stipid!"

Patricia

04-05-2005, 10:02 AM

. . . take a look over at Bewares

http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=146791#post146791

Crunchy Frog

04-05-2005, 10:07 AM

What happens if majority of authors ask for editing? And since they specifically ask for editing in exchange for longer wait, I think the authors would expect a real editing and be upset if they find out PA only ran spell/grammar check.

Wouldn't it be funny if their plan backfired??:tongue

MacAllister

04-05-2005, 10:09 AM

The New Yorker (http://member.php?u=1549)

PublishAnyone in breach of contract
I've heard people say they are trying to get out of PublishAmerica contracts.
Well, they just nixed mine and returned my rights to me on the basis of Par. 25 (supposed author hindrance).
I didn't hinder anything. I received the author copies with the letter encouraging me to send any suggestions for corrections within 10 days. So I did. I told them the quality and layout looked poor. Sent them a wish list of corrections I wanted implemented if possible, such as larger fonts, wider gutter, what have you. I also brought up the myth of brick-and-mortar bookstores, and the fact that it was beginning to feel to me like a do-it-yourself-publishing-co.
Well, I was a bit New York sarcastic, hell, I thought it was pretty funny.
Apparently PA does not have a sense of humor, because they sent me a 2-line letter telling me my contract is nixed and my rights have been returned to me. It was the notorious Janet Morissey - I've heard her name mentioned by other unhappy authors.
Perhaps I'm fortunate that they nixed me because the more I read about them the more they seemed like a really lousy place to publish with. It is obvious that what they did was illegal - there was no grounds to end the contract, and I could possibly sue. But either way - if anyone really wants out, it looks like I inadvertantly found a way.
NYC

#2 (http://showpost.php/?p=146791&postcount=2)
Ann (http://member.php/?u=686)
Originally Posted by The New Yorker
I've heard people say they are trying to get out of PublishAmerica contracts.
Well, they just nixed mine and returned my rights to me on the basis of Par. 25 (supposed author hindrance).
NYC
Way to go! You won't be sorry! You need to post this report on the "never-ending-PA thread." It would be a great encouragement to some over there.

Thanks for sharing. . .
__________________
Ann
Back on Track and Learning!

"Never give up. Never give up. Never, never, never give up."

Churchill

#3 (http://showpost.php/?p=146795&postcount=3)

MacAllister (http://member.php/?u=13)

Actually--since Victoria isn't here, and Jenna has asked that we don't start new PA threads--I'm going to just port this over to the NeverEnding thread. :)

cheers!

(http://editpost.php?do=editpost&p=146795)

Patricia

04-05-2005, 10:12 AM

Patricia

04-05-2005, 10:16 AM

Actually--since Victoria isn't here, and Jenna has asked that we don't start new PA threads--I'm going to just port this over to the NeverEnding thread. :)

cheers!

THANKS MAC!

JennaGlatzer

04-05-2005, 10:26 AM

That's the coolest news! Congrats, New Yorker!

Dudes: START TROUBLE! ;)

Diana Hignutt

04-05-2005, 02:19 PM

Isn't it ironic? The success that their authors are working so hard to achieve will be forever squelched by their own publisher, who works against them at every turn. Their basic POD model prevents a bestseller. The lack of distribution and returns prevent boostores sales. Authors can never succeed. It's impossible. I think Diana Hignutt can testify that (with all due respect, of course).
underthecity

Hello, I'm here to testify that true publishing success is impossible under PublishAmerica. Certainly, it is possible, with great effort and perserverance, to get a few bookstores to stock your book, but despite the most energetic and stalwart attempts, little beyond that is possible. Take my PA book as an example. It was a fantasy novel written primarily for a mainstream audience, but with a strong niche audience built right in. The book was the story of a prince who must become a princess in order to defeat a sinister demon. I bought John Kremer's 1001 Ways to Market Your Book which PA recommended and tried many of the things there suggested. First, I sent about 25 review copies to the biggies: PW, NY Times, LA Times, Booklist, Science Fiction Chronicle, etc., plus my local papers. No luck on the biggies, obviously, but I managed to get stories on me and my book, and/or book reviews in: Philadelphia Inquirer, Courier Post, Gloucester County Times, Philadelphia Gay News, The Daily Journal, and a cover story in Philadelphia Weekly. I also worked hard to get interviews and reviews in the tg niche (though national or international) pubs: Transgender Tapestry, TG Community News, TG Forum. I got major coverage in the tg websites, as well. The Philly Inquirer helped me get some national tv coverage: The O'Reilly Factor, The Big Story with Rita Crosby, Real Life with Mary Amorosa. All this helped get my books stocked at a fair number of places: WindChimes Books, Borders (Philly), Barnes and Noble (Philly), Waldenbooks (Cherry Hill Mall), Barnes and Noble (Deptford), International Foundation for Gender Education Bookstore (Waltham, MA-they also took my book with them around the country to conventions, etc). There were a few other places, I just don't remember. I paid a lot of money and ran three ads in Radio-TV Interview Report which netted me interviews on hundreds of radio stations across North America. Eventually, my book was nominated for the 2004 Spectrum Award. I didn't have much of a chance there, though, due both to the editing problems with the book and the fact that PA ignored requests from the award people for copies of the book.

All of that, and I'm sure I've forgotten a lot, and I sold about 700 copies or so. Of course, it's possible that the book, just sucked, but most reviews were positive:

"XXXXXXXX is a thrilling adventure that explores gender through a protagonist who's at first horrified at his transformation, but eventually comes to accept herself as a woman, and even finds love with the woman he'd met before his change. XXXXXXX is a wonderful book."

-Erik Swallow, Lamda Rising

"Harry Potter for adults"
-Louie Free - AM1360, Cleveland

"The new novel XXXXXX is an action-packed saga of sorcery, secrets and surprises... a rollicking epic..."
-Kevin Riordan - The Courier Post

"one of America's next great rulers of the fantasy world"
-Kristan Ryan, editor, awomanswrite.com

The title of the novel was, of course, not XXXXXXX.

At great expense, and so much time and energy that I'm still tired from it--I acheived a great deal of "success" with that novel. Unless, you count success as book sales, of course. The only thing I really acheived was a reduction in my bank account and getting press that PublishAmerica used to gain more doe-eyed authors to use as grist for their mill. It will only be harder for PA authors to "enjoy" even that level of success, as the industry has learned so much more about PA since my book came out in 2002. The PA business plan (as underthecity pointed out, and as I tried to illustrate) does not allow for success of their authors.

The good news here. I got my book back. Look for it this fall at a bookstore near you, in a wholly revised (and re-edited) edition titled Moonspell, Book I of the Moonsword Trilogy (Behler).

Sure, a few PA authors with relatively strong books will find their way to get a bookstore or two to stock their books. Sure, they'll sell a few copies, but in the end their hard work will just be used by PA to suck more authors into their web of lies. Is that really literary success? It didn't feel like it to me.

diana

astonwest

04-05-2005, 03:32 PM

(apologies if anyone else has already mentioned this possible rationale)

Apology accepted ;)

http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=145713&postcount=14337

cwgranny

04-05-2005, 03:48 PM

I suspect the editing/nonediting thing will work this way...

__ if you choose edting, they won't accept ANY corrections by the author (which often went the way of "hey, you screwed up the parts that were right! Put 'em back.") and will say "You agreed to accept our editing." I believe when they mention the authors who didn't want them to edit, they mean folks like Nancy Mehl who got angry when PA INTRODUCED errors instead of eliminating them and wanted the book to be AT LEAST as good as she sent it.

__ if you choose NO editing, they can avoid correcting all the formatting errors that occur when you feed a .doc file into Adobe. When folks complain, they will say, "Hey, you said you didn't want any editing -- this is exactly what you gave us, all we did was transform it into the right file type.

It smells like a "we're going to screw you and you're going to like it" tactic...one of PA's favorites. No matter which you choose, they get to do less work than they presently do.

gran

Ed Williams

04-05-2005, 04:08 PM

....if PA is hurting (and it sure looks like they are), they can do one of two things - reform, or get worse. It looks pretty obvious with their new "no editing" option and their recent contract offering that they're opting for the latter. I think we all sometimes lose sight of the fact that the people running PA are true shysters, crooks, and maybe even worse. Our better natures just want to think that they are simply misguided or something. Basically, they are evil people who have no intention of helping anyone other than themselves, their singular goal is to put as much money into their pockets as they can. Think about it - if you think about the history of PA and what they've done, no reasonable person could deduce anything other. Larry Clopper seems to be despised in his own hometown, I'm not even saying anything about Moe-randa (but y'all know what I'm thinking), and Curlem ran an out-and-out vanity press before PA. And, on top of all that, they're all failed writers with huge chips on their shoulders.

Folks, Dave expresses this far better than I do, but we gotta keep the pressure up. Good things are happening......

P.S. One other thing - I'm starting to think that maybe PA deliberately let our dearly departed Easter weekend author "buddy" twist in the wind so that he would leave them. Maybe they caught on to the fact that he was costing them more than what he was worth...

robeiae

04-05-2005, 04:32 PM

....if PA is hurting (and it sure looks like they are), they can do one of two things - reform, or get worse. It looks pretty obvious with their new "no editing" option and their recent contract offering that they're opting for the latter.
Hmmm...do you think they are actually convincing themselves that it's really the former?

And, on top of all that, they're all failed writers with huge chips on their shoulders.
C'mon Ed, what about all those great press releases...they're works of art!

P.S. One other thing - I'm starting to think that maybe PA deliberately let our dearly departed Easter weekend author "buddy" twist in the wind so that he would leave them. Maybe they caught on to the fact that he was costing them more than what he was worth...
What does this mean for your nespotism theory? Pretty cruel...

Rob

Sparhawk

04-05-2005, 04:40 PM

Hello, I'm here to testify that true publishing success is impossible under PublishAmerica. Certainly, it is possible, with great effort and perserverance, to get a few bookstores to stock your book, but despite the most energetic and stalwart attempts, little beyond that is possible. Take my PA book as an example. It was a fantasy novel written primarily for a mainstream audience, but with a strong niche audience built right in. The book was the story of a prince who must become a princess in order to defeat a sinister demon. I bought John Kremer's 1001 Ways to Market Your Book which PA recommended and tried many of the things there suggested. First, I sent about 25 review copies to the biggies: PW, NY Times, LA Times, Booklist, Science Fiction Chronicle, etc., plus my local papers. No luck on the biggies, obviously, but I managed to get stories on me and my book, and/or book reviews in: Philadelphia Inquirer, Courier Post, Gloucester County Times, Philadelphia Gay News, The Daily Journal, and a cover story in Philadelphia Weekly. I also worked hard to get interviews and reviews in the tg niche (though national or international) pubs: Transgender Tapestry, TG Community News, TG Forum. I got major coverage in the tg websites, as well. The Philly Inquirer helped me get some national tv coverage: The O'Reilly Factor, The Big Story with Rita Crosby, Real Life with Mary Amorosa. All this helped get my books stocked at a fair number of places: WindChimes Books, Borders (Philly), Barnes and Noble (Philly), Waldenbooks (Cherry Hill Mall), Barnes and Noble (Deptford), International Foundation for Gender Education Bookstore (Waltham, MA-they also took my book with them around the country to conventions, etc). There were a few other places, I just don't remember. I paid a lot of money and ran three ads in Radio-TV Interview Report which netted me interviews on hundreds of radio stations across North America. Eventually, my book was nominated for the 2004 Spectrum Award. I didn't have much of a chance there, though, due both to the editing problems with the book and the fact that PA ignored requests from the award people for copies of the book.

All of that, and I'm sure I've forgotten a lot, and I sold about 700 copies or so. Of course, it's possible that the book, just sucked, but most reviews were positive:

diana

Diana,

I ordered your book from PA when I first started browsing the PA thread after I got my acceptance letter. (The back cover snippet hooked me) Your book was, in one word, AMAZING. Your post is painful, because you put so much of your time and effort and MONEY into making XXXXXXXXXX a success and succeeded in only lining PA's pockets. As Bill Clinton would say "I feel your pain".

When one stops to think about it, PA's business model is absolutely brilliant in it's simplicity. Build a web site that will attract new writers. Print anything and everything, pay the autor a dollar, lock them in for seven years and let them promote themselves for 8% while we (PA) pocket 92%. We have a marketing staff of 11,000. Each staffer is assigned to one book and we know that they'll bust their butt to promote the book beacuse it's THEIRS !!! What a deal, an international marketing staff direct selliing to 50 - 100 family and friends and raiding local bookstores everywhere. ALL FOR A BUCK PLUS 8%. Damn !!! IT doesn't get any better than that for a profit center operation. HIre college kids as editors and then a Morton Downey wannabe (HB) for our public shill and defender. Have him post mindlessly raving about how Saintly and Godly we are to the PA faithful and trample over anyone who may have the nerve to dissent. If our boards get cluttered by probing questions.. make them go away... see "CHARLIE-X" from STAR TREK the original series.

I don't approve of what they're doing or how they're doing it. IT is truly EVIL. But one has to sit back and admire the blatant audacity of pulling such a scheme and actually succeeding with it.

If they cut and run tomorrow, the Unholy Trinity will still have made a heftly buck of the backs of 11,000 people (me included).

MY GOD, it's all so beautifully wicked!!

DaveKuzminski

04-05-2005, 04:41 PM

We haven't seen the last of him. I expect a resurrection. The only questions remaining are when and where.

As to the new general partners, I have several theories as to what's taking place there. One I've already mentioned is that they were allowed to buy into the partnership. If so, then that means that they were blinded by the riches that the stooges put on personal display and bought in believing that they'd soon be living the same life. If so, they're in for a disappointment as PA's sales have to be down at this point because of fewer weekly releases.

Another that's been mentioned is that PA needs someone to take the rap while the stooges go about insulating themselves from daily activities so that they can claim they didn't know what was going on, that the new policies were instituted by the new general partners.

Still another I have is that PA needed to give them an incentive to rigorously backup PA's policies. By giving them a partnership, which they've apparently accepted, PA can rely upon them to help monitor the PA forum and quell dissent along with monitoring other forums because there are now too many critics and dissenters for just three stooges to monitor. The stooges may have even convinced the new partners that they're in too deep to decline, an often used ploy by crooks. They might have even hinted at the use of force by reminding them of the thugs used to protect the previous PA convention.

There may be other more probably possibilities, but these are what come to mind for me first.

Lisa Y

04-05-2005, 04:44 PM

Diana,

I'm amazed that with all you did to market your book (I remember it from the PA site and just read your synopsis), your sales were insignificant. I don't mean that like it sounds- you sold tons more than me, thanks to your determination. It sickens me that you got on talk shows yet really didn't make a dent in the kinds of sales that even a small but real traditional press could get for you. I wish you luck with your writing career.

Sher2

04-05-2005, 05:12 PM

When one stops to think about it, PA's business model is absolutely brilliant in it's simplicity. Build a web site that will attract new writers. Print anything and everything, pay the autor a dollar, lock them in for seven years and let them promote themselves for 8% while we (PA) pocket 92%. We have a marketing staff of 11,000. Each staffer is assigned to one book and we know that they'll bust their butt to promote the book beacuse it's THEIRS !!! What a deal, an international marketing staff direct selliing to 50 - 100 family and friends and raiding local bookstores everywhere. ALL FOR A BUCK PLUS 8%. Damn !!! IT doesn't get any better than that for a profit center operation. HIre college kids as editors and then a Morton Downey wannabe (HB) for our public shill and defender. Have him post mindlessly raving about how Saintly and Godly we are to the PA faithful and trample over anyone who may have the nerve to dissent. If our boards get cluttered by probing questions.. make them go away... see "CHARLIE-X" from STAR TREK the original series.

"Evil genius" pretty well describes it. If only they'd put their efforts into something honest, the Unholy Trinity coulda been a star. :mad:

Christine N.

04-05-2005, 05:19 PM

When is your interview going to air? Or did it already? I missed part of the news one day last week, so I don't know if I missed it. But between Terry Shiavo and the Pope they haven't been doing the Consumer report.

Any idea?

Also... you're the woman!

and... PA SUCKS!

James D. Macdonald

04-05-2005, 06:12 PM

Hmmm...do you think they are actually convincing themselves that it's really the former?

Dorothy Deering was a true sociopath. On the day she was convicted, as she was being led out of the courthouse in handcuffs, she still didn't think she'd done anything wrong.

C'mon Ed, what about all those great press releases...they're works of art!

Perhaps Denny Hatch wrote 'em? Maybe that's why they haven't written a new one -- they don't know how.

What does this mean for your nespotism theory? Pretty cruel...

You've heard the saying about "honor among thieves"?

James D. Macdonald

04-05-2005, 07:34 PM

Congrats to The New Yorker for dodging the bullet. Who would have thought that requesting a well-designed, well-edited book would be grounds for terminating the contract under Paragraph 25 (Author Interference)?

25. The Publisher agrees to produce the said literary work within 365 days from the date of the signing of this agreement by both parties thereto, provided Publisher is not hindered by causes beyond its own control, or by the Author.

Sassenach

04-05-2005, 07:34 PM

Diana:

I don't think your publicity 'hook' can be underestimated. While I'm sure your book is good, you also have something to pique interest.

DaveKuzminski

04-05-2005, 07:49 PM

New Yorker, could you please email some of your correspondence with PA to me or post it here? I'd like to analyze it for suggestions to give to others who are in similar positions to what yours were.

tab

04-05-2005, 08:14 PM

And, on top of all that, they're all failed writers with huge chips on their shoulders.

They are failed writers who are mightily trying to attract other "failed" writers "with huge chips on their shoulders". A prime example of this tactic is infocenter's explaination of why editing is now optional. Infocenter stressed that the option is intended for those would-be PA authors do not want some publisher to edit their precious words, brilliant tone, and unique style. Optional editing is attractive to writers who believe that what they have written is the best thing since the invention of water and have been continuously insulted by the ever-growing pile of rejections sent to them by the agents and editors who didn't agree. They already believe that the publishing world is insidiously evil and misguided. After all, anyone who would deem to criticize or question their magnificant prose must be a horrible fool whose goal is to keep fresh, original voices out of the literary scene.

Of course, this is not "new" news to any of us who have been faithfully following the PA sage. Larry Cloppers has articulated that this is the type of consumer (aka: author) PA wants to attract - the bitter, egotistical, vanity writer. Because they cannot attract enough of these types of writers, they attempt to create them by spewing forth nauseating, David v. Goliath -like propaganda. PA steps in to help puny, powerless writers sidestep the behemoth of the NYC publishing houses.

Any writer who doesn't fit this mold will have a heartbreaking experience with PA. The tragedy is that most writers don't fit the mold. Most writers want to improve their craft, want to put forth their best work, want to sell books, and want the public to read their work.

I know this has been said before countless of times. I just wanted to put it in the context of the new optional editing scheme. :flag:

MacAllister

04-05-2005, 08:20 PM

Tab posted:They are failed writers who are mightily trying to attract other "failed" writers "with huge chips on their shoulders". A prime example of this tactic is infocenter's explaination of why editing is now optional. Infocenter stressed that the option is intended for those would-be PA authors do not want some publisher to edit their precious words, brilliant tone, and unique style.

Tab, I've thought for a while that what PA does is the scam-publishing equivalent of fishing with drag nets: tuna, dolphins, sharks, giant squid...they don't really care who they trap and drown. They're just going to mush it all up together and sell it by the pound anyway.

Good books, bad books, mediocre books...doesn't matter a bit to them. They all pay the same.

The really sad part is how much disinformation they deliberately disseminate in order to hook the uninformed and/or novice writer: All those lies that must later be unlearned. As with any deprogramming, it's difficult to know just where reality and misperceptions meet, and where they diverge. And the sheer number of authors that PA takes in and regurgitates suggests that there are thousands of writers out there with at least one or two completely wacked and totally wrong ideas about writing, editing, and publishing.

Ed Williams

04-05-2005, 08:35 PM

Some writers organizations will not accept PublishAmerica authors or offer only limited memberships. Those organizations include the Science Fiction and Fantasy Writers of America, the Mystery Writers of America and the Authors Guild, whose members include Stephen King and Scott Turow. The organization gets about 50 membership requests a year from PublishAmerica authors. All are rejected.The link to the article is right here:

http://publishing-industry.net/contentid-2-page2.html

That tells you a whole lot right there. Wonder how many other writer's organizations/groups there are that exclude PA books? And wonder why PA doesn't have this information posted up on their website, I mean, after all, Larry Clopper was recently quoted as saying:

"Now they hold their books in their hands, and they are sneering down at the publishing industry that shunned them."Since it's obvious that Larry and PA are trying to effect anti-literary establishment images, what better way to demonstrate that than to show all of the establishment writing organizations/groups that PA can't join? Maybe PA's motto ought to be:

"Who're you gonna believe, everybody else or us?"

Crystal Rivers

04-05-2005, 08:41 PM

Quick answer for Crystal: The "Big Three" (also known as the Three Stooges) are Larry Clopper, Willem Meiners, and Miranda Prather, the three principals of PA.

PA apparently has a few printers, the main one being Lightning Source. A few people here have received PA books sent by other printers, though.

Thanks, Jenna, for answering my question. I guess I was "stipid" as I thought you were referring to three separate publishers. Duhh. What can you expect, I did sign a contract with PA. http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/emoticonsscared.gif I'm getting smarter and smarter, however, as I am no longer promoting the book. I don't want others to get taken in by PA the way I was. Stipid! Stipid! Stipid!!! http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/Emotepoke.gif

DaveKuzminski

04-05-2005, 08:43 PM

And the sheer number of authors that PA takes in and regurgitates suggests that there are thousands of writers out there with at least one or two completely wacked and totally wrong ideas about writing, editing, and publishing.

This is something I've been pointing at for years now. Many of those new writers started in a vacuum. Their only exposure has been to the momentary clip in a movie or TV program that mentioned something about publishing or writing without any explanation of how it really worked. Because they've got imagination, one of the necessary ingredients for producing a writer, they deduce how the system operates according to their environment. Consequently, many get it wrong.

Again, I can only encourage everyone to put a link on their author's page to a site that contains the information they really need. It's worth it, even if your site saves only one other writer from throwing away money needed for that writer's family's well-being. Please do it and encourage other writers to do the same. Only when we cover enough of the net with warnings to counter the slick ads that the scammers use will we see any progress in our overall battle.

Alphabeter

04-05-2005, 08:47 PM

Pardon the multiple posts. I'm catching up on a few days' posts which in this thread is tens of pages!

regarding "Glenn"
ah, blissful ignorance...
tick, tick...

:poke:

hope he comes back when the reality check kicks in...
That should be right around the time he gets his first royalty check. :gone:

Alphabeter

04-05-2005, 08:49 PM

Folks, on a totally different subject, I may have gotten the most jewel distinction I've yet received from a literary standpoint. It's not a new book contract or a great speaking gig or whatever - I just got a private message from ZaZ!

If I promise not to give him any more marks for awhile, do you think I can become so special?:hi:

Richard

04-05-2005, 08:54 PM

Again, I can only encourage everyone to put a link on their author's page to a site that contains the information they really need.

Maybe we should make a campaign page, along with professional looking banners and things - something like www.thetruthaboutwriting.com, written along similar lines to that authorsmarket site PA runs, only with information rather than evil.

victoriastrauss

04-05-2005, 09:00 PM

....if PA is hurting (and it sure looks like they are), they can do one of two things - reform, or get worse. It looks pretty obvious with their new "no editing" option and their recent contract offering that they're opting for the latter.Or for Option 3, which I still think is at least a remote possibility...transitioning to a more straightforward vanity/self-pub model. They could do this and still keep their hook, which distinguishes them from other vanity PODs--no upfront payments.

- Victoria

Alphabeter

04-05-2005, 09:05 PM

Yes, things tend to "resonate" with PA. :Wha:

And resonate and resonate and resonate and resonate...

When Moe-randa and/or the webmaster gets a new thesaurus, you know the end is near!

priceless1

04-05-2005, 09:05 PM

The good news here. I got my book back. Look for it this fall at a bookstore near you, in a wholly revised (and re-edited) edition titled Moonspell, Book I of the Moonsword Trilogy (Behler).
diana
No, I'm afraid there's better news. I received this email this morning from ForeWord Magazine.

"Congratulations on EMPRESS OF CLOUDS being selected as a 2004 BOOK OF THE YEAR AWARD finalist, science fiction category!"

Diana, I hope you forgive me for stealing your thunder, but the pride and joy I feel for your hard work and accomplishments are humbling to me.

What does this have to do with PA? Everything. As a former PA author with this series, Diana turned around to make some serious lemonade.

I don't post here very often anymore, but if I can say one thing to those who feel that their writing careers are forever tainted by their publisher, it would be to say never give up. Follow your dreams, have faith in your talent and make it happen. I wish you all the very best of everything.

And Diana? We'll see you at the BEA in NY in June.

Alphabeter

04-05-2005, 09:06 PM

Ed, if only you were a rabid pack of loose women, conveniently numbered to represent each hair color and maybe even a bald woman, as long as they didn't talk too much and came packin' twelve packs of Killian's and a couple cartons of lung darts. I'd PM the *heehaw!* out of those broads and probably need the assistance of one Kas Hot Toddie Changling to get up on the sloppy seconds.
I think I've changed my thinking about Zaz. He doesn't want a smart redhead with a nasty mind.

*insert some apologetic disclaimer here for those of higher moral fiber*

*looksaround*

Diana Hignutt

04-05-2005, 09:07 PM

Diana,

I ordered your book from PA when I first started browsing the PA thread after I got my acceptance letter. (The back cover snippet hooked me) Your book was, in one word, AMAZING. Your post is painful, because you put so much of your time and effort and MONEY into making XXXXXXXXXX a success and succeeded in only lining PA's pockets. As Bill Clinton would say "I feel your pain".

Okay, you Sparhawk, are one of my new favorite people. Thanks so much for a) buying that book, and b) liking it.

Lisa, Thanks. Yeah, I guess, I'll keep at this writing thing and see what happens.

Sass, Hey, when you're right, you're right. My personal story did add some juice to my marketing efforts.

diana

Crystal Rivers

04-05-2005, 09:07 PM

Oh, thanks to the others, too, who answered my questions. You saved me a lot of time.

So now it's the "BIG 5": Larry, Willem, Miranda, Janet, and Jessica.

CaoPaux

04-05-2005, 09:12 PM

Maybe we should make a campaign page, along with professional looking banners and things - something like www.thetruthaboutwriting.com, written along similar lines to that authorsmarket site PA runs, only with information rather than evil.I was gonna vote for "The Smoking Pen" as a name, but it's already a freelancers' site. *pout* Ah, well.

mdin

04-05-2005, 09:14 PM

Or for Option 3, which I still think is at least a remote possibility...transitioning to a more straightforward vanity/self-pub model. They could do this and still keep their hook, which distinguishes them from other vanity PODs--no upfront payments.

- Victoria

I'm also thinking this is what they intend to do, bit by bit.

The problem is the name "PublishAmerica" is mud. No matter what they do, their actions to this point are going to be held against them. Today, tomorrow, and ten years from now, anyone who's paid just a little bit of attention is going to have a nasty impression of them, even if they clean up their act.

The authors are the ones who will suffer because of this, most of whom will be going in without any idea of the history. Many of the advocates here proclaim they want PA to change their ways, but I think that's unrealistic and overly optimistic. Even if that happens, PA's very existence will remain a detriment to any writer who signs up with them.

victoriastrauss

04-05-2005, 09:14 PM

The really sad part is how much disinformation they deliberately disseminate in order to hook the uninformed and/or novice writer: All those lies that must later be unlearned. As with any deprogramming, it's difficult to know just where reality and misperceptions meet, and where they diverge. And the sheer number of authors that PA takes in and regurgitates suggests that there are thousands of writers out there with at least one or two completely wacked and totally wrong ideas about writing, editing, and publishing.And that's what makes their disinformation so compelling--it is beautifully designed to dovetail with any number of common writers' myths: new writers have no chance with large publishers; most manuscripts get rejected not because they're unmarketable but because the Big Publishers have no imagination and are risk-averse; once you sign a contract with the Big Boys you lose all control and they can do whatever they want with your Pearls of Prose; even the Big Publishers don't do any promotion for most of their authors...etc., etc.

Given the amount of time I've been tracking scams, it's maybe not surprising that I'm a conoisseur of a really clever scheme...and PublishAmerica, IMO, is one (which, again IMO, is one way it differs from the Deering scheme, which was a dumb scheme, or actually a series of dumb schemes). However, while many literary con artists start clever, they're rarely able to continue clever. They usually lose it around issues of greed and control, since they just can't stop themselves from squeezing the scheme for all it can yield, and feel personally insulted by any defiance from their victims.

- Victoria

Diana Hignutt

04-05-2005, 09:14 PM

ZaZ

04-05-2005, 09:25 PM

If it was hot, I'd remember it!

Jenn, work with me here. You were the one all up into sensory deprivation role playing. I didn't think they made cop garb in walrus size but you must remember begging and moaning for me to scream, "I am the eggman!" as I locked up the fur-covered cuffs. Then again, with that designer gag ball in your yap, who knows what you were saying? Could have been, "Fertilize my eggs, man." Goo goo g' joob. Ga-Goo goo g' joob.

On a side note, some PAer sent me some nastygram some Norm guy sent Amazon about Travis and his eves in Georgia. I didn't really read it. I was too busy getting ready to go to the Zhateau Zorbaz about an hour away and drink myself into a warm fuzz. It's exactly what this Normy guy needs. A pill, his own copy of Atlanta Nights and a good four hour soak.

Speaking of lyin' arse soaks, Ed, put the wings away, buddy. You aren't foolin' anyone. Besides, as chaperone, you must condone and will be prone to acts so vile, girls gone wild, just keep the car in gear and revvin.' There will come a time when we ditch the sheep and Kevin.

:D

WhisperingBard

04-05-2005, 09:26 PM

"Congratulations on EMPRESS OF CLOUDS being selected as a 2004 BOOK OF THE YEAR AWARD finalist, science fiction category!"

Diana, you rock! Success *is* the best revenge! :Clap:

Ed Williams

04-05-2005, 09:35 PM

Speaking of lyin' arse soaks, Ed, put the wings away, buddy. You aren't foolin' anyone. Besides, as chaperone, you must condone and will be prone to acts so vile, girls gone wild, just keep the car in gear and revvin.' There will come a time when we ditch the sheep and Kevin.

:D....what was I thinkin'?

Oh, and I got an email this morning from someone from PA, they wanted to know if PA wouldn't let them out of their contract, would they possibly consider continuing to print the books as ordered and just leave their logo off?

Classic....

P.S. Diana, congrats, I'm proud of you but not surprised by your success in the least!

Sparhawk

04-05-2005, 09:40 PM

Diana, you rock! Success *is* the best revenge! :Clap:

Yay Diana... AWESOME !!! :hooray:

robeiae

04-05-2005, 09:43 PM

Or for Option 3, which I still think is at least a remote possibility...transitioning to a more straightforward vanity/self-pub model. They could do this and still keep their hook, which distinguishes them from other vanity PODs--no upfront payments.

Or how 'bout this...One of those "tweener" models that asks for "help" from the authors in publishing their books. They can transition to it in the same way they are changing the editng options:

We recognize how difficult self-promotion can be for first-time authors. To help, we are offering a new publishing option which includes additional marketing and promotional help beyond all that we already provide. You still won't be "paying to publish;" the additional monies will be used exclusively to further enhance the marketing of your book. To make this more affordable, rather than paying an upfront fee, we allow you to pay for this service from your book royalties. But buy selecting this option, you will no doubt sell many, many more books, so you will still see more (not less) royalties!!

Rob

James D. Macdonald

04-05-2005, 09:54 PM

Oh, and I got an email this morning from someone from PA, they wanted to know if PA wouldn't let them out of their contract, would they possibly consider continuing to print the books as ordered and just leave their logo off?

Or, they could get the book back, and print it through Lulu.com (for half the price). There's an option there to leave off the Lulu logo. It's a menu item.

If you just want to have your book printed the way you wrote it, guys...

http://common.lulu.com/themes/common/images/icons/buynow_swirls.gif (http://www.lulu.com/commerce/addreg.php?fBuyContent=102550)

Sher2

04-05-2005, 10:10 PM

Just heard from someone who's seen a contract signed by another "general partner," Michele Omran. Dang, has Poz gone co-op?

DeePower

04-05-2005, 10:11 PM

Add Michele Omran to the list of general partners signing contracts for PublishAmerica.

Michele Omran michele@publishamerica.com (michele@publishamerica.com) Acquisitions Supervisor

Dee

Literary Lola

04-05-2005, 10:13 PM

Lindy, it ain't just you... I've been getting frustrated for Ken because I feel like he's answered the same thing about five times already.

So, Ken, now that I know the whole scoop, anyone who asks you again, you just send 'em to me and I'll be your spokesperson. ;)
Mea culpa, mea culpa. Jenna, Ken, you have my permission to take me out back and whup me with Meiner's limp wrist. You're absolutely right; I beat a dead horse with this topic and this is something I'm not given to doing. Is it the water I drank? Editing is sort of a passion with me (gee, really??) and I burped far more than needed.

While I do stand behind my comments, there are times when it's prudent to back away from the bong and go smell a rose. My hiney remains at your disposal to kick as you see fit. Jes' don't give me a red thingy!

Oh, and Diana, like, totally major wow.

DaveKuzminski

04-05-2005, 10:16 PM

Here's what you do is you have a writer friend or group that doesn't believe you or the truth about PA. Tell them to each submit something to PA using the form on the PA site. When PA asks for the manuscript, send in a manuscript that's been prepped with some intentional errors a few pages in such as name and gender changes of the main characters, misspellings, poor punctuation, poor grammar, and some repeated pages. It doesn't have to be a lot. It only has to be just enough that the author would reasonably expect a rejection from Random House or some other fine publisher if it was sent to them instead. Then tell the author(s) to watch for a response from PA.

If PA accepts the manuscript, that ought to tell the author right there that PA didn't read through the manuscript. If all of your writing group is accepted, what does that tell you then, knowing as I do that most such groups display a cross-section of ability since some will have more skill than others?

Of course, don't let your writer friends throw their manuscripts away for seven years. Remind them that they don't want a contract with that many strings attached and that they should decline.

Just remember the point is that you're proving to them that PA accepts almost anything.

Patricia

04-05-2005, 10:18 PM

The problem is the name "PublishAmerica" is mud. No matter what they do, their actions to this point are going to be held against them. Today, tomorrow, and ten years from now, anyone who's paid just a little bit of attention is going to have a nasty impression of them, even if they clean up their act.

I agree 100%. Anyone involved with or knows the ins and outs of the art world; know that once fraud is connected with your name it is MUD. Well in the publishing world, PA is MUD. The only ones they could possible bamboozle would be the very naive. In addition, at some point even those have to dwindle to nothing.

akaa1a

04-05-2005, 10:29 PM

"Add Michele Omran to the list of general partners signing contracts for PublishAmerica."

Perhaps PA is "outsourcing"!:Wha:
What a great twist THAT would be!

Ed Williams

04-05-2005, 10:34 PM

"Add Michele Omran to the list of general partners signing contracts for PublishAmerica." Perhaps PA is "outsourcing"!:Wha: What a great twist THAT would be!...would probably be more like it, interesting to note all these possible internal changes over at PA. Wonder what's going on?

Here's something sad - yet another generation of PA authors excitedly discussing purchasing each other's books:

http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/8555.htm

You know, it's hard to believe that Moe-randa, Larry, Curlem, and The POD Squad can't feel a twinge about all this. Whatever happens to them in the end will cause me to feel not one twinge of sympathy for them...

WhisperingBard

04-05-2005, 10:50 PM

Just heard from someone who's seen a contract signed by another "general partner," Michele Omran. Dang, has Poz gone co-op?

I still say they're setting up others to take the fall for them. Dastardly doings, eh?

Literary Lola

04-05-2005, 10:56 PM

You know, it's hard to believe that Moe-randa, Larry, Curlem, and The POD Squad can't feel a twinge about all this. Whatever happens to them in the end will cause me to feel not one twinge of sympathy for them...
Ed, honey, the only twinge those guys feel is when their wallets get a little empty. How can one tell? Simple, they send out the "Hey, we're having a fire sale on books" email. Then they do their Evita Peron thing and watch the money roll on in while singing, "We're an ooo, ooo, ooo, ooo, ooo scammin' machine..."

WhisperingBard

04-05-2005, 10:59 PM

Simple, they send out the "Hey, we're having a fire sale on books" email.
Speaking of which, hasn't it been quite some time since they've offered one of their "specials"? Must not be feeling too generous these days (except, of course, when it comes to handing out partnerships). :D

realitychuck

04-05-2005, 11:00 PM

You know, it's hard to believe that Moe-randa, Larry, Curlem, and The POD Squad can't feel a twinge about all this. .Not hard to believe at all. If they had any sympathy for their authors, there wouldn't be a PA in the first place. (You've seen how they communicate with their authors who ask about problems.) I'm sure they sleep very well at night.

Other then their nightmares about the cops coming by, that is.

James D. Macdonald

04-05-2005, 11:01 PM

Ah, yes! The old "I know! Let's buy each others' books!" plan. That one comes around every three to six months, and the new writers all think it's the greatest, cleverest plan, and that no one ever thought of it before.

So after they've bought $200 worth of books (ten books) and they discover that nine out of those ten suck...

Then they drop off the boards and make way for more Happy Authors who come up with a clever plan! Let's buy each other's books!

====================

Here's more about Michele Omran (http://p197.ezboard.com/fabsolutewritefrm11.showMessageRange?topicID=209.t opic&start=4041&stop=4060).

Canada James

04-05-2005, 11:03 PM

When PA asks for the manuscript, send in a manuscript that's been prepped with some intentional errors a few pages in such as name and gender changes of the main characters, misspellings, poor punctuation, poor grammar, and some repeated pages.
If PA accepts the manuscript, that ought to tell the author right there that PA didn't read through the manuscript.
Just remember the point is that you're proving to them that PA accepts almost anything.

I think that can work against us. There are many writers who will think, "Hey, if PA accepts anything then they'll accept me for sure! My work is brilliant, so their 'no editing' policy really doesn't matter." Fanstory was a great example of that line of thought.
This is why I think the whole "Atlanta Nights"/"Purple Pony" stings were only successful in getting media attention and not really a deterrent to new writers desperate to get published. What will (and probably is) getting the new release count down is/will be this:

My preferred method is to give them a few ISBNs of PA titles. Then I suggest they walk into/phone at least 5 bookstores and ask if they stock these books, and what the chances are that they would.
Even writers who think their work is above editing, don't think their work is above bookstore stocking.

Canada James

Sher2

04-05-2005, 11:08 PM

I still say they're setting up others to take the fall for them. Dastardly doings, eh?
Stipid dastidly bastids. :Smack:

Guess what was waiting in my mailbox this afternoon? None other than a notice to pick up a letter from Poz at the P.O. I'm not picking it up. Anybody know how many times they'll try to deliver the thing? I can avoid the postman for as long as it takes. Unless he rings twice... Ooops, small fugue state. I ain't signing for no freakin' Poz stuff, period.

Kate, I know you're up to your eyebrows in boxes, but it's time to organize the sit-in. I'm ready to chain myself to a radiator and sing Kumbaya.:ROFL:

DaveKuzminski

04-05-2005, 11:09 PM

Canada James offered another good idea. Suggest it as well to your friends.

In the meantime, PA may have new competition in the form of Amazon which according to this news article at URL http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7386211/ has bought BookSurge.

underthecity

04-05-2005, 11:14 PM

PA may have new competition in the form of Amazon which according to this news article at URL http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7386211/ has bought BookSurge.
PA has nothing to worry about! Booksurge is POD, whereas PA is POD! Everyone knows the difference! After all, at PA, authors' books will get published. Booksurge merely prints them.

:horse: (Couldn't find the rolling eyes one)

OK, sarcasm off.

underthecity

reph

04-05-2005, 11:17 PM

Dorothy Deering was a true sociopath. On the day she was convicted, as she was being led out of the courthouse in handcuffs, she still didn't think she'd done anything wrong.
Another example: "Melanie Mills," who, it is alleged, scammed writers, faked her own death for personal gain, broke her mother's pelvis by running into her with a car, and pretended to have amnesia during a court appearance.

WhisperingBard

04-05-2005, 11:20 PM

Stipid dastidly bastids.
Such eloquence, dear. :ROFL:

WhisperingBard

04-05-2005, 11:23 PM

Another example: "Melanie Mills," who, it is alleged, scammed writers, faked her own death for personal gain, broke her mother's pelvis by running into her with a car, and pretended to have amnesia during a court appearance.

Ya know, I'm not naive. I know people can be real bastids. But damn! Her own mother? Just...damn. :Wha:

Sparhawk

04-05-2005, 11:27 PM

...would probably be more like it, interesting to note all these possible internal changes over at PA. Wonder what's going on?

Here's something sad - yet another generation of PA authors excitedly discussing purchasing each other's books:

http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/8555.htm

You know, it's hard to believe that Moe-randa, Larry, Curlem, and The POD Squad can't feel a twinge about all this. Whatever happens to them in the end will cause me to feel not one twinge of sympathy for them...

10 PA writers agree to buy books monthly as this thread suggests. 10 people do so teh first month. The average cost of a PA book is $20.00 for this models case.

10*10*$20.00 = $2,000.
less 8% due to rayalites assuming no one has exceeded the 2K sales threshold ($160.00) to various writers. PA takes in $1,840 in one month. Now lets assume that other PA writers adopt this and it equates to the same variables. PA nets $22,800 per annum on a base model of 10 writers buying ten books each. BUt let's get realistic and revamp the equation. we'll say thirty three writers buy 3 PA books each month (seems more realistic).

33writers * 3 books each * $20.00 = $1,980 or $23,760 less $1900.8 in sales commissions to 33 writers. Each writer makes $57.58 while spending $60.00 at a net loss of $2.42. Assuming that a person buying three books will have three books sold. If a person buys three books and sells none of his own in this model he is totally sunk moneywise.

The only people making money here is the publisher. AND....AND There is no direct or sunk cost associated with these sales. As I stated prior.. you can't get a better business model or a better sales force. Imagine a commercial businesses sales force buying their companies products from each other?

I ask again in all humility that the motto of PA be examined. "We treat our Authors the old fashioned way... we pay them"

DaveKuzminski

04-05-2005, 11:27 PM

Ya know, I'm not naive. I know people can be real bastids. But damn! Her own mother? Just...damn. :Wha:

Well, she wasn't trying to break her mother's pelvis. After all, she was allegedly trying to kill the poor woman.

WhisperingBard

04-05-2005, 11:31 PM

Well, she wasn't trying to break her mother's pelvis. After all, she was allegedly trying to kill the poor woman.
Oh, well, that's okay then. :Jaw:

Jaws

04-05-2005, 11:33 PM

The following commentary is just that: Commentary. It should not be taken as legal advice for a particular situation or an assertion of a third party's liability.

Yeah, right.

In any event, some people have been scratching their heads over the recent explosion in "partners" at PublishAmerica LLP (no, there's no such thing as an LLLP). The following not-quite-random comments may help y'all begin to get a handle on what could be going on. A limited-liability partnership is sort of like a corporation, in that there is little personal liability for the partners. Except… for the general partner(s) in the LLP, who have unlimited personal liability for all debts and claims against the partnership as a whole. Limited partners (there are other terms often used for this; one cannot assume that "partner" means "partner"!) are liable only to the extent of their pro rata interest in the partnership as a whole.
General partners are jointly and severally liable for any debt or claim of the partnership. That means that a debt can be extracted from any general partner who can be brought before a given court for jurisdiction.
Although the partnership agreement may purport to allocate risks, income, liabilities, etc. among partners according to shares, a nonparty to the partnership agreement—such as someone suing to collect a debt—is not bound by those allocations.
Thus, practically, a general partner wants to have several others available to be "tagged" with any collection action if he/she anticipates that such an action might be filed. This is analogous to the corporation-law theory of "piercing the corporate veil," which can be used to get at the owners of sham corporations; but, since it concerns a partnership, it's a lot easier to do.

Y'all can draw your own conclusions as to why I might have inserted this educational message in the thread at this time. Y'all would probably be wrong, but you can have fun doing it. ;)

WhisperingBard

04-05-2005, 11:37 PM

General partners are jointly and severally liable for any debt or claim of the partnership. That means that a debt can be extracted from any general partner who can be brought before a given court for jurisdiction.
So if the Three Stooges happened to be out of town in...oh, I don't know...EUROPE, the new general partners would be left holding the bag, yes?

DaveKuzminski

04-05-2005, 11:37 PM

10 PA writers agree to buy books monthly as this thread suggests. 10 people do so teh first month. The average cost of a PA book is $20.00 for this models case.

10*10*$20.00 = $2,000.
less 8% due to rayalites assuming no one has exceeded the 2K sales threshold ($160.00) to various writers. PA takes in $1,840 in one month. Now lets assume that other PA writers adopt this and it equates to the same variables. PA nets $22,800 per annum on a base model of 10 writers buying ten books each. BUt let's get realistic and revamp the equation. we'll say thirty writers buy 3 PA books each month (seems more realistic).

33writers * 3 books each * $20.00 = $1,980 or $23,760 less $1900.8 in sales commissions to 33 writers. Each writer makes $57.58 while spending $60.00 at a net loss of $2.42.

Okay, the math just doesn't work right for me. Why do you have 10*10*$20 since that would imply that each author is purchasing 10 books? Most of the PA writers won't have that much discretionary income to spend in that manner. They might fit in a single purchase each month, but they're trying to make sales of their own, not everyone elses.

I think all of the math needs to be gone over carefully because I can't figure out how a writer can spend $60 and make back $57.58 of it when we already know that the author gets only 8%.

underthecity

04-05-2005, 11:40 PM

I ask again in all humility that the motto of PA be examined. "We treat our Authors the old fashioned way... we pay them"
I have always thought this motto was screwball. Isn't that what publishers are supposed to do? Pay their authors? This motto implies that other publishers don't pay their authors. The only other types of publishers that take money from the authors instead of the other way around are POD and vanity press houses. With their very motto PA says upfront that they aren't like the other vanity presses, they're different--implying that they pay their authors. Their very motto indicates exactly what they really are.

Anyone visiting the PA site the first time should question that motto. Publishers are already supposed to pay their authors, and what exactly is "the old fashioned way?"

This motto can be easily translated into other industries:

Restaurants: We treat our customers the old fashioned way, we feed them.

Movie Theaters: We show our movies the old fasihoned way: we project them.

Newspapers: We treat our news the old fashioned way: we print it.

Such a bland motto. Here's a better one for PA: We treat our authors the old fashioned way: we berate them, we fleece them, we take all their money.

Sorry, it's late afternoon, I'm running out of steam.

underthecity

Sher2

04-05-2005, 11:42 PM

Well, she wasn't trying to break her mother's pelvis. After all, she was allegedly trying to kill the poor woman.
In other words, she effed that up, too.;)

akaa1a

04-05-2005, 11:45 PM

http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/main/11893.htm

Mon Dieu!
I wish I had a magic wand to whisk these authors over here...I lost count of how much misinformation they have been fed...

A 1-2 year contract?:faint: Where are they getting this stuff?

:Cheer:
Come on over authors!
Learning the right information isn't scary.....not choosing to learn it is!

Sparhawk

04-05-2005, 11:48 PM

Okay, the math just doesn't work right for me. Why do you have 10*10*$20 since that would imply that each author is purchasing 10 books? Most of the PA writers won't have that much discretionary income to spend in that manner. They might fit in a single purchase each month, but they're trying to make sales of their own, not everyone elses.

I think all of the math needs to be gone over carefully because I can't figure out how a writer can spend $60 and make back $57.58 of it when we already know that the author gets only 8%.

Sorry Dave,

A writer selling three books at twenty dollars makes $4.80. I copied teh wrong cell. Sorry about that. Net loss is $55.20 on a buy three sell three basis.

My bottom line despite my poor copying skills is that at this rate and attitude, PA will never have to do any marketing, thier sales force is generating it's own product demand. Sorry about the confusion. :Smack:

Diana Hignutt

04-05-2005, 11:48 PM

Just a quick thank you to everyone who sent their congrats on the 2004 BOtYA Finalist thingy. I'm floating today...

Now, back to your bashing...

Diana

DaveKuzminski

04-05-2005, 11:54 PM

This thought came to mind just now. There was recently a court case that brought into focus that individuals from other countries have some rights in this country when they're charged with a crime. That caused me to wonder if there is any sort of internation protection or treaty that might apply to contracts signed by PA with individuals from other countries. Anyone know how that might be researched and where?

Oh, one other thing. I also know that PA dropped an author like a hot potato after he revealed he was living in Japan. This might be a part of what I musing about.

CaoPaux

04-05-2005, 11:57 PM

http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/main/11893.htm
Dang, beat me to it! :tongue

But, does anyone else get the impression that jck is stepping into CBM's shoes?

Kevin Yarbrough

04-06-2005, 12:06 AM

That's Mary Carey, she ran for governor because of the publicity, and it definitely helped her out. Believe it or not, she seems to be a very nice young woman, a few months ago she sent me a complete set of her DVDs because I'd mentioned her in one of my columns. She also asked me to look her up if I ever get out to LA. Where were invites like this when I was twenty?

Where were the invites when you were twenty Ed? In the case of all these younger women flirting with you, they probably would have been running around in pigtails screaming "boys have cooties".

If your not watching those DVD's, can I borrow them? And, can I go with you when you go to LA?

DaveKuzminski

04-06-2005, 12:10 AM

But, does anyone else get the impression that jck is stepping into CBM's shoes?

Nobody can fill those shoes. There's just not that much stipid left in the world. ;)

Literary Lola

04-06-2005, 12:17 AM

I ask again in all humility that the motto of PA be examined. "We treat our Authors the old fashioned way... we pay them"
By golly, you're right. Heck, we're all writers, I'm betting that we could come up with a far better motto.

"PA: We treat our Authors the New Way...we fold, spindle, mutilate, screw, and generally make you feel terrible about yourselves while we laugh ourselves to an offshore account."

Whaddya think? Too wordy?

Ed Williams

04-06-2005, 12:18 AM

...should now become our designation for any attornies, flunkies, hit men, or anyone else designated for high management employment at PA along with Moe-randa, Larry, and Curlem, the New (and forever) Three Stooges.

(Lola, Sherry, I love it when y'all sing to me, it gets me goose bumpy all over...)

My good friend Dave had this to say:

Well, she wasn't trying to break her mother's pelvis. After all, she was allegedly trying to kill the poor woman.Whew, thank God you cleared that up, I was worried she was trying to do something serious to her!

My running buddy Kev added his two cents worth in as follows:

If your not watching those DVD's, can I borrow them? And, can I go with you when you go to LA?Actually Kev, I have already previewed them, I knew you and ZaZ might want to use them as instructional videos, so I went ahead and watched because I wanted to make sure they would help - they will.....

And my dear friend Diana, whose words always resonate with me, said:

Now, back to your bashing...Can't we refer to it as "pickling" instead, something about the term "we're pickling PA" really appeals to me...

akaa1a

04-06-2005, 12:21 AM

But, does anyone else get the impression that jck is stepping into CBM's shoes?

Maybe a dual posting nom de plume? We all know that "you know who" will be back...maybe he never really left....
or is like the "Invasion of the Body Snatchers."

Now THERE'S a scenario that makes sense!:crazy:

PS...Thanks to all for my second little green box!
"You like me...you really like me!" (Sally Field)

Kevin Yarbrough

04-06-2005, 12:21 AM

I think PA has this no edit/edit thing going on is quiet simple. When someone complains that their book wasn't edited, or when a reviewer complains, or the authors mothers dog walker complains, PA can say "Hey, they opted to not have it edited." Now, if the author complains and says he did opt for it to be edited PA can say "No, you didn't. We have it right here." And if they don't have it right there, they will just lie, kick the author off, and be done. In the end all the editing problems will be the authors fault, even if they opted to have it edited. Guess PA thinks it will make things better for them.

Literary Lola

04-06-2005, 12:23 AM

Oh, one other thing. I also know that PA dropped an author like a hot potato after he revealed he was living in Japan. This might be a part of what I musing about.
Ah ha! We have our Achille's Heel. Everyone should now reveal that they've moved to Outer Mongolia to get out of their contract. Boy, we know how PA hates having to mail books to authors who live outside the US, eh?

Aconite

04-06-2005, 12:25 AM

They want to sack a bunch of the editors. I don't think they have that many now, and from all the other commentary the ones they do have aren't professionals. Even so I've seen lots of comments on the PA boards about how long it takes for a book to come out, so these editors are probably flat out (running spell check in Word :) ).

Apologies to anyone who may have already noted this, but another possible explanation for the change comes to mind: Maybe word is getting out, and PA's having a hard time hiring new "editors."

Also, the "edit-it-yourself" option may (they think) dilute the embarrassment factor of their publishing yet more sting mss. They can just claim that those came under the "self-edit" category. (Yes, I spot all the errors of logic in that argument, but since when has PA cared about that?)

A side note: I really hope that Mem's exit from this board didn't have to do with the termination letter she said she was getting from PA. I have a hard time seeing Mem agreeing to a gag, so I hope she's gone for happier reasons of her own.

Remember, boys and girls, you don't have to sign a gag clause just because they stick one in.

ResearchGuy

04-06-2005, 12:25 AM

...yet another generation of PA authors excitedly discussing purchasing each other's books:

http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/8555.htm
...
Let's see now ... let' say they succeed beyond their wildest dreams, and EACH of 11,000 authors buys two books per month ... 22,000 one-book orders ... each ... month ... Question: how long before melt-down in PA-land?

--Ken (the one with the hyphens)
aka Research Guy

Literary Lola

04-06-2005, 12:28 AM

Can't we refer to it as "pickling" instead, something about the term "we're pickling PA" really appeals to me...
No, no, no, Ed. It should be referred to as stirring the toxic pot. Yo, pass that POD Squad bong, willya?

Sher2

04-06-2005, 12:30 AM

Lola, Sherry, I love it when y'all sing to me, it gets me goose bumpy all over...
We girls do have a pretty good harmony going on but, dang, dude, who knew we were making goose bumps?;) Kumbaya, anyone?
Can't we refer to it as "pickling" instead, something about the term "we're pickling PA" really appeals to me...
What's the term for sausage making?

Richard

04-06-2005, 12:30 AM

Alternatively, game the system. All you have to to is SAY "Yes! I will buy two books!" every few months, not, and keep cycling every few months. In a few decades, you could have a modest hit on your hands...

Aconite

04-06-2005, 12:33 AM

Anyone visiting the PA site the first time should question that motto. Publishers are already supposed to pay their authors, and what exactly is "the old fashioned way?"

Actually, the motto is pretty accurate, given how writers were treated by "old fashioned (sic)" publishers for most of publishing history. Heh. I can't decide if that's just happenstance, or if somebody at PA has a psychological need to drop broad hints to potential victims for some reason.

lindylou45

04-06-2005, 12:34 AM

Congratulations, Diana! You deserve it! :Clap: :hooray: :banana:

Sher2

04-06-2005, 12:34 AM

WhisperingBard

04-06-2005, 12:36 AM

I have a hard time seeing Mem agreeing to a gag

*spits coffee all over the keyboard* Mem?? Not bloody likely.

James D. Macdonald

04-06-2005, 12:39 AM

But, does anyone else get the impression that jck is stepping into CBM's shoes?

Nah. English Bob there (y'all recall Unforgiven with Clint Eastwood?) is a typical new-PA-author. His book isn't out yet. He's full of blue-sky ideas. He's repeating the misinformation he's heard. He doesn't think it'll happen to him. He's not like all the whiners and losers -- he read his contract -- unlike them he's ready to do promotion.

Give him time. The 200 Author book will be ashes in his mouth long before it comes out.

FAUSTUS:
Come, I think Hell's a myth.
MEPHISTOPHELES:
Then think so, 'til experience change your mind.

Sher2

04-06-2005, 12:40 AM

*spits coffee all over the keyboard* Mem?? Not bloody likely.
Never! I think I can speak for her when I say she'd rather die. Semper fi.:)

ResearchGuy

04-06-2005, 12:43 AM

Folks, I came across http://www.hipiers.com/publishing.html this morning, while Googling PublishAmerica scam (that, like PublishAmerica fraud brings up lots of sites). PA is in the list, but there is soooooooooo much more that y'all might find interesting and tangentially pertinent to this thread if you have not already seen it.

--Ken (the one with the hyphens ...)

p.s., someone mentioned Mary Carey, the porn star who ran for governnor in CA in 2003. I saw her at an appearance in Old Sacramento during the campaign. Pleasant, pneumatic young lady. Not well informed about public issues, but game to try. I took about 150 digital photos, and was asked by a Japanese news crew to comment for their camera--for broadcast in Japan. I declined, as right at that moment (but not for long, as other events got in the way) I was a consultant for another (and far more sedate) candidate. I also managed the entirely online campaign for governor of Squirrel of Capitol Park, recounted at www.capitolweasel.com (http://www.capitolweasel.com/).

lindylou45

04-06-2005, 12:43 AM

We recognize how difficult self-promotion can be for first-time authors. To help, we are offering a new publishing option which includes additional marketing and promotional help beyond all that we already provide. You still won't be "paying to publish;" the additional monies will be used exclusively to further enhance the marketing of your book. To make this more affordable, rather than paying an upfront fee, we allow you to pay for this service from your book royalties. But buy selecting this option, you will no doubt sell many, many more books, so you will still see more (not less) royalties!!

Rob

Is this verbatim from another site, or did you just unknowingly write PA's new copy for them?

KellyS.

04-06-2005, 12:43 AM

lindylou45

04-06-2005, 12:46 AM

Just heard from someone who's seen a contract signed by another "general partner," Michele Omran. Dang, has Poz gone co-op?

I hear the janitor has been "approached regarding a partnership" with PA. :scared:

Kevin Yarbrough

04-06-2005, 12:46 AM

I'm also thinking this is what they intend to do, bit by bit.

The problem is the name "PublishAmerica" is mud. No matter what they do, their actions to this point are going to be held against them. Today, tomorrow, and ten years from now, anyone who's paid just a little bit of attention is going to have a nasty impression of them, even if they clean up their act.

The authors are the ones who will suffer because of this, most of whom will be going in without any idea of the history. Many of the advocates here proclaim they want PA to change their ways, but I think that's unrealistic and overly optimistic. Even if that happens, PA's very existence will remain a detriment to any writer who signs up with them.
The name is not a problem, they have changed it before, they can again. I think with the new partners PA might be ready to change their name and have some new figureheads up in front instead of Larry, William, and Miranda. I think the original three will still be on, getting as much money as always, but will, at least in the publics eye, either not exist or will be like a consultant.

And maybe H to the B eyotch is not there anymore because one of the new partners said they would only by in if they got rid of him. And when he was going to do his dying bit they had the perfect oppurtuniy to get rid of him.

With their mouthpeice gone, new partners, and new contacts I think PA might be in for a image overhaul. Might be the same PA, or might not be, but I think a new name is on the way.

Zaz, you're not leaving me with the sheep. I'm not going to take the balme for things you might have done with them.

Kevin Yarbrough

04-06-2005, 12:46 AM

lindylou45

04-06-2005, 12:52 AM

[QUOTE=Ed WilliamsMoe-randa, Larry, Curlem, and The POD Squad .[/QUOTE]

Sherry and I were just "discussing" in our other group what the new name of the big six should be. Leave it to Ed to come up with the perfect name! :Trophy:

Sher2

04-06-2005, 12:54 AM

I hear the janitor has been "approached regarding a partnership" with PA. :scared:
If you'll lend me some money, I can probably outbid him. Once I'm a partner, I'll hire you to run the spell-checker. Deal?

Aconite

04-06-2005, 12:55 AM

*spits coffee all over the keyboard* Mem?? Not bloody likely.

Well, I was a-tryin' out this here newfangled thingie called "understatement." Don't seem to work real good, tho', so maybe I'll jest go back to "statement."

*g*

Sassenach

04-06-2005, 12:58 AM

If jck can write a book on the 'theory of everything', I'm sure he can figure out a way to get his books into B&N.

Christine N.

04-06-2005, 12:59 AM

If you'll lend me some money, I can probably outbid him. Once I'm a partner, I'll hire you to run the spell-checker. Deal?

But Sherry, doncha know.. you can buy anything at PA for only a dollar! :roll:

Here's an interesting thread... really. http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/main/11895.htm

These people need to worship at the altar of Uncle Jim! :hooray:
Seriously, BIC, people, B...I...C . Wish someone could do a drive-by with the link to the "Writing with UJ" link on the Novels board.

ResearchGuy

04-06-2005, 12:59 AM

I think PA has this no edit/edit thing going on is quite simple. . . . In the end all the editing problems will be the authors fault, even if they opted to have it edited. Guess PA thinks it will make things better for them.
Next up, the print it yourself option! Thus eliminated: all complaints about quality of printing, binding, and timeliness of delivery. For the complete package, authors may choose to edit, format, and print themselves (handle order fulfillment, too!), while obligated only to pay to PA all monies except the author's "royalty." Or perhaps pay PA an inverse royalty (commission?) of 92%. "Our authors treat us the old fashioned way: they pay us."

--Ken (with the hyphens ...)

lindylou45

04-06-2005, 01:00 AM

Anybody know how many times they'll try to deliver the thing?

3

Kate, I know you're up to your eyebrows in boxes, but it's time to organize the sit-in. I'm ready to chain myself to a radiator and sing Kumbaya.

I'm with you, too! :box: :Hammer:

Literary Lola

04-06-2005, 01:02 AM

And maybe H to the B eyotch is not there anymore because one of the new partners said they would only by in if they got rid of him.
No, Kev, you have it wrong; Mucus IS a partner. He had to die in order to get the position. After all, it isn't professional to be a partner AND bellicose...

keltora

04-06-2005, 01:04 AM

*****"Congratulations on EMPRESS OF CLOUDS being selected as a 2004 BOOK OF THE YEAR AWARD finalist, science fiction category!"*****

Go, Diana!!!! Whoooo!!!

Ed Williams

04-06-2005, 01:08 AM

...due to my sweet friend lindylou making mention of this, I want to correct a mistake I made earlier. It's not "The POD Squad," it's "The POD Squad." In the future, when we are asked who runs PA, we should simply reply:

"The New Three Stooges and The POD Squad."

I'm a stickler for properly addressing people, especially the glorious group noted above in blue.

My newest friend, ResearchGuy, had this to say:

p.s., someone mentioned Mary Carey, the porn star who ran for governnor in CA in 2003. I saw her at an appearance in Old Sacramento during the campaign. Pleasant, pneumatic young lady.Pleasant is not the word I would use, RG, but it's a start. If you're a friend of Mary's, then you're a friend of mine, which means you get to go with ZaZ, Kev, and I when we all soon make a road trip out to L.A....

My soon-to-be road trip buddy Kev said:

And maybe H to the B eyotch is not there anymore because one of the new partners said they would only by in if they got rid of him. And when he was going to do his dying bit they had the perfect oppurtunity to get rid of him.Kev, I had been thinking the same thing, glad to see you put it in words. If I were PA, I would've lived in constant fear of the twice dead one saying or doing something that would imply liability. I think he decided to pull his stunt, and The POD Squad pickled him, played him, and ultimately filleted him...

Christine N.

04-06-2005, 01:08 AM

Yay, Diana! You are now not just THE woman, you are my hero! I can't wait to come to your reading (May 2, right?)

.. Yep, I live not too far from this wonderful writer, so neener neener neener, I'm gonna get to go see her! Guess I'm gonna have to get a copy of EoC for her to sign for me, so I can say "i knew her when.."

Ok, back on topic.... things that make you wanna go :Headbang: :Smack:

http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/main/11894.htm

Kevin Yarbrough

04-06-2005, 01:10 AM

He isn't a partner Lola, couldn't be. They might have gave him an honorary partnership but it doesn't mean anything, just looks good in a frame on the wall next to his one dollar advance.

And, how do you invert your bellybutton? I already run down the freeway nekkid.

Sorry about the spelling peeps, having a bad migraine day and am not catching them. My spelling is bad to begin with, but to day is worse.

ResearchGuy

04-06-2005, 01:14 AM

...Ok, back on topic.... things that make you wanna go :Headbang: :Smack:

http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/main/11894.htm

"most authors don't realize is that having your book on a shelf in a bookstore isn't likely to generate many, if any, sales."

LOL! As opposed to all the sales generated by NOT having your book on a shelf in a bookstore! (Or on a display table, and endcap, a counter ...)

I wonder how many books, of all those that get an ISBN every year, were never intended to BE on general bookstore shelves in the first place? Like, for example, scholarly works, association/organization publications, and government publications from those that do the ISBN cha-cha (like my former employer did).

--Ken

Sher2

04-06-2005, 01:14 AM

But Sherry, doncha know.. you can buy anything at PA for only a dollar! :roll:

Well, gee, Christine, I just happen to have one. I guess I'm buying my way in PDQ. Yippee! PDQ to the POD. Pssst, need a job? No way can we eff it up any worse than it already is.;)

Kevin Yarbrough

04-06-2005, 01:14 AM

CaoPaux

04-06-2005, 01:19 AM

If jck can write a book on the 'theory of everything', I'm sure he can figure out a way to get his books into B&N.http://www.planetsmilies.com/smilies/happy/3/happy44.gif *koff* Sorry.

Sher2

04-06-2005, 01:19 AM

Next up, the print it yourself option! Thus eliminated: all complaints about quality of printing, binding, and timeliness of delivery. For the complete package, authors may choose to edit, format, and print themselves (handle order fulfillment, too!), while obligated only to pay to PA all monies except the author's "royalty." Or perhaps pay PA an inverse royalty (commission?) of 92%. "Our authors treat us the old fashioned way: they pay us."

Geez, Guy, they read here! You might have just given them a new idea. You can bet they'll be all over it, too, if they think the sheep will bite. Not YOUR sheep, Kevin. Those are, um, special sheep.:roll:

keltora

04-06-2005, 01:20 AM

But Sherry, doncha know.. you can buy anything at PA for only a dollar! :roll:

Here's an interesting thread... really. http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/main/11895.htm

These people need to worship at the altar of Uncle Jim! :hooray:
Seriously, BIC, people, B...I...C . Wish someone could do a drive-by with the link to the "Writing with UJ" link on the Novels board.

:Lecture: Successful authors put their butts in a chair and write and rewrite and submit and resubmit. They treat writing like a business, set hours for working on their books, set goals to reach for each and every day...

And as a result, they are able to produce a book a year--even with a job holding some of them down, they can produce a book a year.

It's application of the seat of the pants to the seat of the chair, dedication to the work, and persistence that keeps them going.

This is not to say that writers who get sucked into the PA whirlpool cannot produce the same amount of work as the pros they worship. If they follow the formula, it works.

I write more than one book a year, and since I usually have more than one deadline, I am usually working on several projects at once. And I have a social life and hold down a full time job, and still find time to go to schools and speak to students on writing, and to attend conventions (I was at one just this past weekend).

Plus I still manage to produce short fiction and novellas as well.

I am just a busy bee of a writer...:snoopy:

Hey, do we have a bee icon?

ByGrace

04-06-2005, 01:22 AM

Remember, boys and girls, you don't have to sign a gag clause just because they stick one in.

So, what is an author to do that wants a release but doesn't want the gag clause in the release contract? Can they X it out and initial it? Is there a statute of limitations on that clause, or is it forever?

Sher2

04-06-2005, 01:28 AM

I write more than one book a year, and since I usually have more than one deadline, I am usually working on several projects at once. And I have a social life and hold down a full time job, and still find time to go to schools and speak to students on writing, and to attend conventions (I was at one just this past weekend).

Plus I still manage to produce short fiction and novellas as well.

I am just a busy bee of a writer...:snoopy:

Hey, do we have a bee icon?
Wow, I'd say you ARE a busy bee. And I am dying to read about hillbilly vampires; do give a heads-up when it's out.

Yeah, can somebody find us a bee icon? It's springtime, I'm dying of spring fever, and I've got birds and bees on my mind. Seriously. I just took down my Christmas flag and hoisted my huge pink flamingo flag. :ROFL:

Crystal Rivers

04-06-2005, 01:31 AM

This motto can be easily translated into other industries:

Restaurants: We treat our customers the old fashioned way, we feed them.

Movie Theaters: We show our movies the old fasihoned way: we project them.

Newspapers: We treat our news the old fashioned way: we print it.

Such a bland motto. Here's a better one for PA: We treat our authors the old fashioned way: we berate them, we fleece them, we take all their money.

Thanks for the laughs. Keep 'em comin'! http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/emoteThumbs.gif http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/emoteClap.gif

DeePower

04-06-2005, 01:36 AM

"I wonder how many books, of all those that get an ISBN every year, were never intended to BE on general bookstore shelves in the first place? Like, for example, scholarly works, association/organization publications, and government publications from those that do the ISBN cha-cha (like my former employer did)."

About half of the 175,000 books released in a year are not meant for bookstore placement. The 4 big publish on demand houses; iuniverse, authorshouse, xlibris and PublishAmerica release about 2000 titles a month or 24000 titles a year. These books, as we all know, won't be found on bookstore shelves either. So that leaves roughly 65,000 titles.

ByGrace, unfortunately if you cross out, or add, any verbage to a contract the other party has to agree to the changes. And yes I believe the gag order is forever or until PublishAmerica is no longer in existence. (Not a lawyer)

Dee

lindylou45

04-06-2005, 01:52 AM

Nobody can fill those shoes. There's just not that much stipid left in the world. ;)

Poor Changling -- one typo and you'll never live it down. It's just so perfect for Larry, Curlem, Moe-randa, and the Pod Squad! I hope you understand. :)

lindylou45

04-06-2005, 01:55 AM

By golly, you're right. Heck, we're all writers, I'm betting that we could come up with a far better motto.

How about, PA -- We don't kiss you first! :poke:

Sher2

04-06-2005, 01:58 AM

Sher2

04-06-2005, 02:01 AM

How about, PA -- We don't kiss you first! :poke:
Or perhaps, "Bend over and kiss your *** goodbye."

God, I need to eat some dinner. I'm getting positively loopy.;)

Susan Gable

04-06-2005, 02:01 AM

"Congratulations on EMPRESS OF CLOUDS being selected as a 2004 BOOK OF THE YEAR AWARD finalist, science fiction category!"

Wooo-hoooo! Way to go, Diana! This is excellent news! Megacongrats!

:snoopy: :Cheer: :TheWave: :PartySmil :partyguy:

Party time! :-)

Susan G.

lindylou45

04-06-2005, 02:08 AM

If you'll lend me some money, I can probably outbid him. Once I'm a partner, I'll hire you to run the spell-checker. Deal?

Hey, I've got $12.36 from royalties of my first book. Will that help? As far as the spell-checker -- I kam due thet! :partyguy: :snoopy:

Sher2

04-06-2005, 02:19 AM

Hey, I've got $12.36 from royalties of my first book. Will that help? As far as the spell-checker -- I kam due thet! :partyguy: :snoopy:
Yes, butt kin ewe sea know evil, here no eval, and dew sum Elavil?;)

James D. Macdonald

04-06-2005, 02:19 AM

I once saw a parody version of the PA banner with the slogan "We treat authors the old-fashioned way -- we screw them."

======================

Ah, yes:

By the way... (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/main/11895.htm)
They keep churning out books year after year. I am impressed and awed by their abilities to do this. Just writing my one book took me over a year to write it. Then it's taken me about 12 years to finally get it published. Every year, always in March or April, two of my favorite mystery authors come out with new books, Robert B. Parker and Elizabeth Peters. Each year around Christmastime, Dean Koontz comes out with a new book. Each year, Joan Hess and Carolyn Hart come out with new books. It is awesome to me how they accomplish this. My hats off to them. If I can ever get to this level of success it will be beyond belief.

Well, come visit the Learn Writing with Uncle Jim thread, my friend. While "churn out" isn't exactly the way I'd put it, I'll tell you true: If you write one page a day, at the end of a year you'll have a book-length manuscript.

Is Marketing to Bookstores a waste of Time (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/main/11894.htm)

You've got to remember that Ms. Hoy owns a POD press. She's looking at this from an angle.

Do you know why publishers want to put books into bookstores? Because there's no better place to sell them. As Research Guy pointed out, if getting books into bookstores doesn't translate into sales what the heck does not getting books into bookstores translate into?

What you need to know is: Nearly 60% of booksales take place in bookstores.

Many, many of the books published each year aren't intended for bookstore sales at all (book club editions, law books, bound reports, academic works, encyclopedias, etc...). Of the rest -- roughly half are shelved in your average B&N superstore. Smaller presses get their books into fewer stores. That's part of what makes them smaller presses. But about the same percentage of the print run of each commercial book gets shelved. Perhaps briefly, but shelved.

The nonsense about "2% of all authors will find their book shelved in a bookstore" is pure nonsense. Trash. Lies. The only way they can say that is by counting the books by unpublished authors too.

lindylou45

04-06-2005, 02:20 AM

"most authors don't realize is that having your book on a shelf in a bookstore isn't likely to generate many, if any, sales." :Wha:

That's ludicrous! (Shaking head in disbelief). Even I wasn't that naïve! Seriously, you PA authors have got to get over here. We'll welcome you with open arms and you'll learn so much! Come on over, the coffee's on and Mem sent me a batch of her special brownies. I just might share! :welcome: (She also sent some of her rum cake, but I'm not sharing that with anybody!!)

victoriastrauss

04-06-2005, 02:34 AM

:Lecture: Successful authors put their butts in a chair and write and rewrite and submit and resubmit. They treat writing like a business, set hours for working on their books, set goals to reach for each and every day...

And as a result, they are able to produce a book a yearJust have to speak up for slower writers here...BIC is essential, but it may not result in a book a year. Or even a book in two years. Not everyone is able to write that fast. Nor is writing that fast essential for success (though it certianly helps). Many successful authors publish at intervals of several years.

- Victoria

Jaws

04-06-2005, 02:43 AM

But Sherry, doncha know.. you can buy anything at PA for only a dollar! :roll:How about truthful, nonabusive answers to honest questions from confused authors? Think they could get that for a dollar?

Renee

04-06-2005, 02:49 AM

Congratulations, Diana, you're an inspiration!

Wishing you the best!
:Jump:

akaa1a

04-06-2005, 03:13 AM

"How about truthful, nonabusive answers to honest questions from confused authors? Think they could get that for a dollar?"

Sorry Jaws, but if you act right now and call 1-800-YUR-CRAP, along with your $1 and seven year contract you'll receive a free CD with these PA favorites;

"Do Wa Diddy...You're Dirt"

"Now, Don't Take That Tone With Me"

"No Questions Will Go Answered"

AND the sentimental favorite...

"Your Book...It's Ours Now!"

All this for just one dollar?
You bet!
But wait...there's more!
As an extra thank you, PA promises to be vague, condescending, and deceitful at no extra charge.
Just one more way to let our authors know we got them comin' and going with no hope for escape!

Call NOW!!!! Larry, Mo, Curlem, Jessica, Janet and whoever the heck else is minding the store is waiting to talk down to you!!!

Christine N.

04-06-2005, 03:36 AM

Just have to speak up for slower writers here...BIC is essential, but it may not result in a book a year. Or even a book in two years. Not everyone is able to write that fast. Nor is writing that fast essential for success (though it certianly helps). Many successful authors publish at intervals of several years.

- Victoria

And, of course, this depends on how long the books are that you write. I write middle grade fiction, only about 50-55K words each. Doesn't take me that long. Of course, my first book took nearly three years. But that was when I was writing because I wanted to see if I could finish a book, and didn't write continuously. The current WIP had a first draft in 5 months, and that was with taking a month off for Nanowrimo.

(Plus, I'm kinda stuck with my BIC for at least another month, so it's going that much faster. I have not much else to do!)

Oh, yeah... PA SUCKS ROTTEN EGGS!

Literary Lola

04-06-2005, 03:40 AM

Lola, I just got your, er, request, and my answer is yes, you can. You gotta work on the attitude, though. I mean, "nice" will carry you only so far. Oh, wait, what am I thinking? We're going to do this differently, aren't we? Carry on. The job is yours. The pay is $1.00 a day and all the authors you can abuse. Perks include riding herd on the message board bully of the hour and watering the livestock in the cellar. And listen, whatever else you do to Those Three while you're down there is your business. :banana: Additional perk: you can order the editor of your choice, at any time, to make you a banana split. Warning: Bard may fight you for the job.
I'm overjoyed. I simply don't know what to say. What? Moi- a loss for words? Whoa, this is momentous.

Bard, how's about thee and me turning the The Evil Three into dumbwaiters. Oops, there I go, pulling oxymorons out of my hat. Ooops, there I go again. Oxy-moron...heh, heh.

We'll have Curlem serve us pina coladas balanced on the top of his bald little dome while reading English for Dummies, Moe-randa can dance on the sidewalks wearing a sandwich board that says, "I'm an Oscar Meyer wiener," and Larry will be elected to buy an updated version of Spell-check.

arrowqueen

04-06-2005, 03:40 AM

Congratulations, Diana. Wonderful news. Well done!

Literary Lola

04-06-2005, 03:42 AM

Sher2

04-06-2005, 03:47 AM

I'm overjoyed. I simply don't know what to say. What? Moi- a loss for words? Whoa, this is momentous.

Bard, how's about thee and me turning the The Evil Three into dumbwaiters. Oops, there I go, pulling oxymorons out of my hat. Ooops, there I go again. Oxy-moron...heh, heh.

We'll have Curlem serve us pina coladas balanced on the top of his bald little dome while reading English for Dummies, Moe-randa can dance on the sidewalks wearing a sandwich board that says, "I'm an Oscar Meyer wiener," and Larry will be elected to buy an updated version of Spell-check.
Lola, honey, the crown -- I mean, the helmet is yours. It's okay to use the word "oxymoron" and even to make up some around the new digs; the new staff will know what it means. Gotta tell you, though, I ain't drinking anything off Curlem's head. I don't think you should, either. You don't know where his head has been. As for Moe-randa, a weiner board is too good for her. I think we ought to sell her to some real pirates -- the ones with sharp weapons and planks and candles in their beards. And Larry? He stays in the cage in the cellar, no ifs, ands, or buts about it. Bard will volunteer to feed him if'n you're skeered -- she ain't skeered of nothin'. :banana:

Sher2

04-06-2005, 03:50 AM

"Do Wa Diddy...You're Dirt"

"Now, Don't Take That Tone With Me"

"No Questions Will Go Answered"

AND the sentimental favorite...

"Your Book...It's Ours Now!"

All this for just one dollar?
You bet!
But wait...there's more!
As an extra thank you, PA promises to be vague, condescending, and deceitful at no extra charge.
Just one more way to let our authors know we got them comin' and going with no hope for escape!

Call NOW!!!! Larry, Mo, Curlem, Jessica, Janet and whoever the heck else is minding the store is waiting to talk down to you!!!
Oh, Lord, AKA, you are on a roll! LMAO! :roll:

Ken Schneider

04-06-2005, 04:15 AM

From my observations over the past year.

I have seen many P.A. authors say that the Printer wouldn't take their second book for a period of time after the first book was released.

Others have said that they didn't have that problem. No!,it isn't,for the ones that buy books.
If they know you'll buy books they churn them out as fast as you can pay your credit card down.

See below-

----- Original Message -----
> From: "PublishAmerica Acquisitions" <leah@publishamerica.com (leah@publishamerica.com)>
> To:
> Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2005 11:01 AM
> Subject: The Wednesday Night Big Girls Love Club
>
>
> > Dear Mr. Schneider:
> >
> > This query is concerning The Wednesday Night Big Girls Love Club.
09/17/04
> > we requested your submissions package but have not yet received it. If I
> > can be of any further assistance, please contact me. I look forward to
> > receiving and your manuscript soon.
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Leah Baird
> > Assistant Acquisitions Editor
> > PublishAmerica

I mentioned on the board at P.A. that I might might title my next book as above. I never quiered, nor did I receive an e-mail asking for the submissions package.

P.A. Throws out the fishing line, Zingggggg. They lost their worm on that cast.

Chang.

Patricia

04-06-2005, 04:22 AM

From my observations over the past year.

I have seen many P.A. authors say that the Printer wouldn't take their second book for a period of time after the first book was released.

Others have said that they didn't have that problem. No!,it isn't,for the ones that buy books.
If they know you'll buy books they churn them out as fast as you can pay your credit card down.

See below-

----- Original Message -----
> From: "PublishAmerica Acquisitions" <leah@publishamerica.com (leah@publishamerica.com)>
> To:
> Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2005 11:01 AM
> Subject: The Wednesday Night Big Girls Love Club
>
>
> > Dear Mr. Schneider:
> >
> > This query is concerning The Wednesday Night Big Girls Love Club.
09/17/04
> > we requested your submissions package but have not yet received it. If I
> > can be of any further assistance, please contact me. I look forward to
> > receiving and your manuscript soon.
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Leah Baird
> > Assistant Acquisitions Editor
> > PublishAmerica

I mentioned on the board at P.A. that I might might title my next book as above. I never quiered, nor did I receive an e-mail asking for the submissions package.

Ken, I think the email is saying that they are querying you for the title and have at some time sent you a request to submit it.

Ken Schneider

04-06-2005, 04:34 AM

Ken, I think the email is saying that they are querying you for the title and have at some time sent you a submission request.

Ha, problem is they never sent the package to start with. What publisher do you know that got wind of what you may title you next book, would e-mail you for a submission package.
I know, they might some famous author, but, since I bought books the first go round and never submitted again, they were fishing.

Canada James

04-06-2005, 04:43 AM

Ha, problem is they never sent the package to start with. What publisher do you know that got wind of what you may title you next book, would e-mail you for a submission package.
I know, they might some famous author, but, since I bought books the first go round and never submitted again, they were fishing.

In the area of fairness:

My publisher got wind of me from a trusted friend. His company, until me, only published picture books and now he wanted to get into YA fiction. My friend had read my manuscript and told him about it. Later that night I got an email from him saying that he'd heard of my manuscript and wondered if I'd send him a proposal.

He loved it. And yes, this book had been shot down by other publishers.

Canada James

Sher2

04-06-2005, 04:45 AM

No, Kev, you have it wrong; Mucus IS a partner. He had to die in order to get the position. After all, it isn't professional to be a partner AND bellicose...
But are we positive he's not one of Laura's Hillbilly Vampires? Cold, black-hearted, blood-sucking, scared to come out in the light of day -- yep, he's a partner.;)

robeiae

04-06-2005, 04:48 AM

What's the term for sausage making?

Oddly enough its "sausage making," from the French sausi, meaning "unwanted smelly meat parts," and the Latin meki, meaning to "stuff violently."

Hmmm...it does seem to resonate with PA somehow.

Rob

Lisa Y

04-06-2005, 04:49 AM

First of all, congratulations, Diana :Hail: :Thumbs: :Clap:

Second of all, I have an idea that might make PA get books out even faster. Another option called the "You Lick It Option". Instead of the books being sent to a printer, where books are bound but gosh, it takes so much darn time, PA can just slap some stamp like glue on the spline and send it right to the author. Then all the author has to do is lick the spline and the books are ready to go!! :idea:

Ken Schneider

04-06-2005, 04:52 AM

Sher2

04-06-2005, 04:55 AM

Oddly enough its "sausage making," from the French sausi, meaning "unwanted smelly meat parts," and the Latin meki, meaning to "stuff violently."

Hmmm...it does seem to resonate with PA somehow.

Rob
Don't it, though? Might be some pretty rancid sausage, though -- which just might resonate a malevolent odor all over Poz. ;)

writerjenn

04-06-2005, 04:56 AM

Duhh. What can you expect, I did sign a contract with PA.

Please Crystal, don't ever EVER think you were stupid for signing with PA. Naive perhaps, but never stupid. PA are experts at taking in newbies by manipulating their dreams. It wasn't your fault then, and it certainly isn't now.

Chin up, ever forward.

Jenn

Sher2

04-06-2005, 04:58 AM

Lisa Y

04-06-2005, 05:02 AM

Sher,

"slends slivers". I just spit on my screen. I really need an emoticon for that!

Literary Lola

04-06-2005, 05:42 AM

I agree with Changling, Lisa -- you'd better run before Poz calls. Ooooooooo. The simple elegance of the concept just slends slivers down my spline.:)
I just may die laughing. I agree with Lisa, we need an emoticon for that because the mental image is killing me.

AnneMarble

04-06-2005, 05:51 AM

Apologies to anyone who may have already noted this, but another possible explanation for the change comes to mind: Maybe word is getting out, and PA's having a hard time hiring new "editors."

Good point. Maybe kids are Googling the company before answering the ads. :) And maybe some editors have seen the posts directed to them here...
:hi:

Sher2

04-06-2005, 05:55 AM

I just may die laughing. I agree with Lisa, we need an emoticon for that because the mental image is killing me.
Yeth! Who bwee the kweeper of the emloticons? We need a spline and a blusted spleen. Oh, and an Undead. And pwease, a stipid! :roll:

Ken Schneider

04-06-2005, 05:55 AM

Good point. Maybe kids are Googling the company before answering the ads. :) And maybe some editors have seen the posts directed to them here...
:hi:

And, good point from you Anne. I hadn't thought of the applicants checking on the company. Smart people would do that.

Jeff

04-06-2005, 06:01 AM

From a PA thread:

"I, also will buy two books a month, read and review them. I think this is the most powerful thing we can do as PA authors."

.....

It is just depressing to sit here and read yet another new crop of PA authors who think that buying one anothers books is a road to success.

Listen up, folks:

The truth of the matter is that the MOST POWERFUL thing that a PA author can do for themselves is to write their NEXT book and publish it somewhere else.

Otter: "Don't you find cucumbers sensuous?"
Mrs. Wormer: "Cucumbers are sensual. People are sensuous."
Otter: "Sensual. Yes. That's what I meant..."

Ed Williams

04-06-2005, 06:04 AM

....that it seems to have been over a week since PA last updated its "New Releases" section. Might be worth keeping half an eye on...

A potential tempest in a teapot is starting to brew over on the PA boards, apparently one PA author has gotten the word out that his book IS going to be stocked in all the Barnes and Noble bookstores, click on the below for the tender details:

http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/main/11893.htm

PA authors, this person is probably just confused about things, but, given the fact that the New Three Stooges and the POD Squad run your company, hey, anything is possible. The fact that someone would even wonder about it says it all...

Here's a thought - maybe, instead of printing the books at all, PA could go into a new formating technique - Phone Books! Think about it, Phone Books! Isn't that catchy? And get this, to order a "PA Phone Book," the caller would call into a nine hundred number especially set up by PA, and then a PA staffer would actually read the book of choice over the phone! Hey, it saves trees, it saves lots of overhead costs for PA, and at a bill rate of four to five dollars a minute, Moe-randa, Larry, Curlem, and the POD Squad can get richer than ever....

The Phone Book! http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/spezial/Fool/alc.gif

DaveKuzminski

04-06-2005, 06:10 AM

Here's a thought - maybe, instead of printing the books at all, PA could go into a new formating technique - Phone Books! Think about it, Phone Books! Isn't that catchy? And get this, to order a "PA Phone Book," the caller would call into a nine hundred number especially set up by PA, and then a PA staffer would actually read the book of choice over the phone! Hey, it saves trees, it saves lots of overhead costs for PA, and at a bill rate of four to five dollars a minute, Moe-randa, Larry, Curlem, and the POD Squad can get richer than ever....

Ed, you're really dispicable. [Picture Sylvester or Porky saying this.] Once their lines are tied up in that manner, I won't be able to reach them to place my order for one of their books. ;)

AnneMarble

04-06-2005, 06:16 AM

Folks, I came across http://www.hipiers.com/publishing.html this morning, while Googling PublishAmerica scam (that, like PublishAmerica fraud brings up lots of sites). PA is in the list, but there is soooooooooo much more that y'all might find interesting and tangentially pertinent to this thread if you have not already seen it.

It's an interesting list. Controversial because he doesn't think POD is necessarily a bad thing, even for novelists. But he does get some interesting information on how some publishers are doing, reports from both angry and happy authors, etc.

Did you see his coverage of Atlanta Nights in the February issue of his newsletter? It's at http://www.hipiers.com/05feb.html

Hint: Search for "PublishAmerica" as he left the space out. :)

Jeff

04-06-2005, 06:31 AM

Folks, I came across http://www.hipiers.com/publishing.html this morning, while Googling PublishAmerica scam (that, like PublishAmerica fraud brings up lots of sites). PA is in the list, but there is soooooooooo much more that y'all might find interesting and tangentially pertinent to this thread if you have not already seen it.

That is the site for author Piers Anthony, he of the Xanth and Incarnations of Immortality series of novels, among others. I have long enjoyed his fiction, but I've truly enjoyed reading his autobiography (which has been updated and reprinted) in which he talks of his childhood and his struggle with technology. Perhaps the most interesting portion of the book, however, is his recounting of his struggles with his publisher to get a fair and honest accounting of his sales and what he considered the subsequent blacklisting of his books for a while.

A good read, folks.

D-Day: "I thought it was loaded with blanks!"
Bluto: "HOLY SH*T!"
D-Day: "It is loaded with blanks!"
Bluto: HOLY SH*T!"
Both: "YAAAAAAAAHHHHH!"

Gratian Gasparri

04-06-2005, 06:53 AM

Gratian Gasparri

04-06-2005, 06:58 AM

Add Michele Omran to the list of general partners signing contracts for PublishAmerica.

Michele Omran michele@publishamerica.com (michele@publishamerica.com) Acquisitions Supervisor

Dee

I wonder if PartnerAmerica is now hiring partners rather than employees?

realitychuck

04-06-2005, 07:06 AM

Re: http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/main/11894.htm (about how books aren't sold in bookstores).

As usual, do a reality check: ask yourself, what percentage of the books I own did I buy from bookstores? And what percentage of the books I own were bought other ways?

For me, I guess about 85% bookstores (including newstands) and 15% other sources. At that 15% is probably higher than most, since we buy a lot from book clubs. In addition all the books we've purchased on book clubs and online sources were available in bookstores; we just bought them other ways for convenience sake.

I might have a dozen books (out of well over 2000) that never appeared in bookstores, including Atlanta Nights, The Pleistoscene Redemption (http://www.sff.net/people/doylemacdonald/r_tpr.htm), The Ultimatum to Mankind (http://web.archive.org/web/20030621010931/http://www.tangentonline.com/reviews/magazine.php3?review=178)* and a handful of self-published books. All are godawful, but, other than Atlanta Nights, all were sent to me free by self-published authors trying to promote their work.

I think most people will have similar results (with, probably, even fewer self-published books in their library).

So if 85% of most people's purchases of books come from bookstores, how can you argue with a straight face that having your book in bookstores doesn't generate sales? To paraphrase Willy Sutton, you want books in bookstores because that's where the buyers are.

*A terrible self-published novella I reviewed for Tangent. Boring, preachy and not even entertainingly bad (other than for picking holes in the author's argument).

(Added link)

Sher2

04-06-2005, 07:14 AM

As usual, do a reality check: ask yourself, what percentage of the books I own did I buy from bookstores? And what percentage of the books I own were bought other ways?

For me, I guess about 85% bookstores (including newstands) and 15% other sources. At that 15% is probably higher than most, since we buy a lot from book clubs. In addition all the books we've purchased on book clubs and online sources were available in bookstores; we just bought them other ways for convenience sake.

The vast majority of the books I buy (and I have over 2,000 as well) are bought from either bookstores or a book club. If I'm not looking for instant gratification, I'll buy from the book club or Amazon or B&N online for the sake of convenience. Even so, every title is readily available in any bookstore.

Sher2

04-06-2005, 07:19 AM

James D. Macdonald

04-06-2005, 07:41 AM

Controversial because he doesn't think POD is necessarily a bad thing, even for novelists.

At one point he was a part-owner of Xlibris, and used it to bring out at least one of his trunk novels.

WhisperingBard

04-06-2005, 08:14 AM

And Larry? He stays in the cage in the cellar, no ifs, ands, or buts about it. Bard will volunteer to feed him if'n you're skeered -- she ain't skeered of nothin'.

Oh, I am afraid of *some* things, Sher. Sprouting white hairs on my chin. Running out of Cadbury chocolate. The recurring nightmare where I go through life known only as a "PA Author."

But Larry? *Phftttt* Bring 'im on. Lola and I can handle him. :box:

ResearchGuy

04-06-2005, 08:28 AM

At one point he was a part-owner of Xlibris, and used it to bring out at least one of his trunk novels.
Still is, I believe. He mentions that and other connections in his list.

--Ken

NicoleJLeBoeuf

04-06-2005, 08:37 AM

Warning: This post mentions R*ck*ds, so don't read if that subject raises your blood pressure...You evil, EVIL woman.

Guess what I've been doing for much of the last 24 hours? Go on. Guess!

*perk!* But I found Ann Crispin's gravy recipe! (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.arts.sf.composition/msg/e1941612d514489d) So, y'know, it's a wash.

lucyishome

04-06-2005, 08:41 AM

Yeth! Who bwee the kweeper of the emloticons? We need a spline and a blusted spleen. Oh, and an Undead. And pwease, a stipid! :roll:

Ssshh I am trying to resonate.

Anne

:hi:

AnneMarble

04-06-2005, 09:00 AM

You evil, EVIL woman.

Guess what I've been doing for much of the last 24 hours? Go on. Guess!

You poor thing! :faint: I salute you! :Hail:

*perk!* But I found Ann Crispin's gravy recipe! (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.arts.sf.composition/msg/e1941612d514489d) So, y'know, it's a wash.

Food and rasfc always seem to go together. I enjoyed the discussions on critiques and style, found the ones about IP addresses educational, and liked the posts about roundabouts. The subthread about shaving brushes wasn't really up my ally, however. ;)

However, if I start to mention alt.books.ghost-fiction, someone please slap me. :D

Ed Williams

04-06-2005, 09:03 AM

...of Moe-randa, Larry, Curlem, or the POD Squad would do nicely for the stipid avatar, don't y'all think?

Kent Dorfman: Uh, what's my Delta Tau Chi name?
Bluto: Dorfman, I've given this a lot of thought. From now on, your name is Flounder.
Kent Dorfman: [Pause] Flounder?

lindylou45

04-06-2005, 09:09 AM

I once saw a parody version of the PA banner with the slogan "We treat authors the old-fashioned way -- we screw them."

======================

Ah, yes:

By the way... (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/main/11895.htm)

Well, come visit the Learn Writing with Uncle Jim thread, my friend. While "churn out" isn't exactly the way I'd put it, I'll tell you true: If you write one page a day, at the end of a year you'll have a book-length manuscript.

I love that thread, Uncle Jim. I've learned so much from you and all the other people who participate. It's so great to be able to talk/read about writing w/o PA looming over my head.

I have to admit that I didn't believe I could do BIC. I've never been able to force myself to sit down and write, but I tried it. I had forty-five pages written of my fourth novel when I started using BIC. I worked one hour in the morning and one hour in the evening (I know, it's kind of cheating), I generally got anywhere from six to ten pages done a day, and in a little over two months I have the rough draft of a 410 page ms complete. I haven't really started an in-depth edit yet, so for all I know it could be pure drivel, I'll have to get back to you on that.

So if I can do this anyone can. Uncle Jim is a great teacher and this is from someone who at times can be dumber than dirt. Thanks so much for everything! :Hail:

lindylou45

04-06-2005, 09:21 AM

Larry will be elected to buy an updated version of Spell-check.

Hay, Speel_cahkc es me jab! :Thumbs:

lindylou45

04-06-2005, 09:25 AM

P.A. Throws out the fishing line, Zingggggg. They lost their worm on that cast.[/i]

Chang.

But Chang, PA doesn't solicit manuscripts. Didn't you know that?

Galoot

04-06-2005, 09:37 AM

From the thread in need of a BIC lesson (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/main/11895.htm) comes this quote:As far as quantum is concerned I know very little but the little I do know is enough. Take a murder mystery novel, as long as I read the page that discloses the murderer I do not need to read the whole book.Oh, wow. This just makes my head spin.

1) Accepting the conclusions reached in a physics book (or any book) because you've read only the last page, the one that starts "Thus, it follows...," is the antithesis of critical thinking.

2) That take-it-on-faith attitude immediately suggests why this person is with PA.

3) If I somehow stumble across a synopsis of this author's book some day, I won't bother buying it because, hey, I read the synopsis!

Cripes.

lindylou45

04-06-2005, 09:45 AM

Ed Williams said. . .A potential tempest in a teapot is starting to brew over on the PA boards, apparently one PA author has gotten the word out that his book IS going to be stocked in all the Barnes and Noble bookstores,...

PA authors, this person is probably just confused about things...

B&N are associates of PublishAmerica as well as Amazon.com and Chapters.com."

That says it all right there. This person thinks -- much like I did -- that getting his book listed on these online bookstores is the same as having them in the stores. Unfortunately, he's in for a huge disappointment when he enters a B&N for the first time.

Here's a thought - maybe, instead of printing the books at all, PA could go into a new formating technique - Phone Books! Think about it, Phone Books! Isn't that catchy? And get this, to order a "PA Phone Book," the caller would call into a nine hundred number especially set up by PA, and then a PA staffer would actually read the book of choice over the phone! Hey, it saves trees, it saves lots of overhead costs for PA, and at a bill rate of four to five dollars a minute, Moe-randa, Larry, Curlem, and the POD Squad can get richer than ever....

Ed, you've got to stop giving The New Three Stooges and The POD Squad ideas!

NicoleJLeBoeuf

04-06-2005, 09:58 AM

You poor thing! I salute you!I've sorted the thread by date, and I'm up to around post 2310. That's not quite halfway through. I'll probably bookmark my progress, go to bed, and pick it up again tomorrow after I'm done my first BICcing session for the morning.

Food and rasfc always seem to go together. I enjoyed the discussions on critiques and style, found the ones about IP addresses educational, and liked the posts about roundabouts. The subthread about shaving brushes wasn't really up my ally, however. ;)I really appreciated finally getting the whole story on why one oughtn't to pronounce SF as "sigh-fie". I still think the distinction is silly, but at least now I know the origins. Sort of.

The lock-picking stuff definitely warrented a "come back and check this out later."

It's really time I started checking out other newsgroups than misc.writing and misc.writing.moderated. rasfc and rasfw are looking better and better all the time.

However, if I start to mention alt.books.ghost-fiction, someone please slap me. :DReeeeeally.

Trying to keep this on-topic: For those of you who are newsgroup inclined, there is an alt.writing.scams. (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.writing.scams) Enjoy!

KellyS.

04-06-2005, 10:03 AM

I just may die laughing. I agree with Lisa, we need an emoticon for that because the mental image is killing me.

Here ya go:

http://www.imghst.com/uploads/kelblend/spitsmilie.gif

I don't have stipid, but do have this: http://www.imghst.com/uploads/kelblend/lies.gif

and this one: http://www.imghst.com/uploads/kelblend/hopeless.gif

NicoleJLeBoeuf

04-06-2005, 10:05 AM

A side note: I really hope that Mem's exit from this board didn't have to do with the termination letter she said she was getting from PA. I have a hard time seeing Mem agreeing to a gag, so I hope she's gone for happier reasons of her own.An explanation for Mem's exit has already been posted here (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.writing.scams) (thanks, Bard!). As for her termination letter report (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=142251#post142251), that was just a brief April Fool's joke. She immediately followed it up (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=142261#post142261) with a post featuring an April Fool animated smiley and the words "If only it were true." Reeeeead caaaaarefully! ;)

In other thoughts... I wonder if the domain name "PublishAmericaIsMud.org" is taken?

mdin

04-06-2005, 10:08 AM

From the thread in need of a BIC lesson (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/main/11895.htm) comes this quote:Oh, wow. This just makes my head spin.

Cripes.

I don't want this to come across as author-bashing, but the fact this above mentioned author's scientific theory is being published by PA (and not a scientific journal or other scholarly publisher) is a testament to what PA really is.

If I'd never heard of PA at all or only heard glowing things about them, and I came across this book, I would have an immediate sour opinion. I only know a little about scholarly publishing--my brother is one of those smart science guys, and he gets papers published in those peer-reviewed journals now and then. I do know enough that PA was stupid to accept this book. If by chance anyone happens to notice this book, the online science community will be very vocal with their ridicule. They love stuff like this.

mdin

04-06-2005, 10:21 AM

Oh, and I just saw the perfect smilie for PA:

http://www.absolutepunk.net/images/smilies/deal2.gif

NicoleJLeBoeuf

04-06-2005, 10:38 AM

Oh, and I just saw the perfect smilie for PA:

http://www.absolutepunk.net/images/smilies/deal2.gifIt needs just a couple of things to make it perfect: a quill pen and a bottle of suspiciously viscous red ink.

Lisa Y

04-06-2005, 10:40 AM

Oh, and I just saw the perfect smilie for PA:

http://www.absolutepunk.net/images/smilies/deal2.gif

I just tried pasting in the spitting smilie that KellyS posted earlier, but it didn't work!

Galoot

04-06-2005, 11:07 AM

http://www.absolutepunk.net/images/smilies/deal2.gifTo be absolutely perfect, his hand should be moving vertically.

mdin

04-06-2005, 11:27 AM

It needs just a couple of things to make it perfect: a quill pen and a bottle of suspiciously viscous red ink.

If I have time, maybe I'll make a few enhancements tomorrow or the next day.

Patricia

04-06-2005, 12:27 PM

http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/8651.htm

mdin

04-06-2005, 01:16 PM

http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/8651.htm

I think Bonnie should e-mail that guy and tell him about her experiences.

Bonnie's idea, if IIRC, was (is?) a gift shop that happened to sell some PA books. This is (yet again) a bookstore stocked entirely of nothing but PA books. It will have to be staffed, rent will have to be paid, utilities turned on. It's a financial tragedy just waiting to happen.

Diana Hignutt

04-06-2005, 02:10 PM

...
Can't we refer to it as "pickling" instead, something about the term "we're pickling PA" really appeals to me...

Sure, let's call it pickling from now on. It resonates with me.

diana

Diana Hignutt

04-06-2005, 02:13 PM

Christine, you may be able to say you knew her when but I will be able to sell my story of me being in her hotel room, drinking alcohol, and partying to the Enquirer.

Yeah, there we were reclining on the bed next to each other...darn, I knew that would come back to bite me. Still, I had fun.

diana

MartyKay

04-06-2005, 02:52 PM

I wonder if PartnerAmerica is now hiring partners rather than employees?

Perhaps not hiring.

I worked for a lovely company for almost a year (before it went into liquidation). The company raised money from "investors", who were tapped on a regular basis to provide "seed money" for this company. In return, the investors were given sales type jobs for the company -- they would be given rudimentary training and would go and sell the services of the company. This was because of the huge "opportunity" the company offered when it's "nearly completed software" was done. Of course, that never happened, especially since the tax authorities and the corporate watchdogs decided to jump onto the case (investors who asked too many questions were not given the opportunity to invest...) -- the company folded soon after.

The point to this little interlude, is that perhaps these new "partners" have been sold the story that PA is a successful enterprise, and invested in it with both money and their own time. I wonder if these investors know anything about what they have sunk their funds into? Or this could be pure speculation.

Aconite

04-06-2005, 03:25 PM

As for her termination letter report (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=142251#post142251), that was just a brief April Fool's joke. She immediately followed it up (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=142261#post142261) with a post featuring an April Fool animated smiley and the words "If only it were true." Reeeeead caaaaarefully! ;)

Thanks, Nicole. I never saw the edited post; it looks like she made the addition a few hours after the original post, and the thread had moved on by then. Good to know she's well.

Sher2

04-06-2005, 03:54 PM

Perhaps not hiring.

I worked for a lovely company for almost a year (before it went into liquidation). The company raised money from "investors", who were tapped on a regular basis to provide "seed money" for this company. In return, the investors were given sales type jobs for the company -- they would be given rudimentary training and would go and sell the services of the company. This was because of the huge "opportunity" the company offered when it's "nearly completed software" was done. Of course, that never happened, especially since the tax authorities and the corporate watchdogs decided to jump onto the case (investors who asked too many questions were not given the opportunity to invest...) -- the company folded soon after.

The point to this little interlude, is that perhaps these new "partners" have been sold the story that PA is a successful enterprise, and invested in it with both money and their own time. I wonder if these investors know anything about what they have sunk their funds into? Or this could be pure speculation.
I believe you're right in that the new "partners" have invested money or time or both for their new positions. This is PA we're talking about -- they don't do anything altruistically. I very much doubt that the new crop of partners are unaware of the ill wind blowing through Poz, though. Janet has been around for quite some time and has signed her name to some very nasty epistles. She knows the climate. Whatever the incentive is for this new crop of partners, my hunch is that they'll be the ones left holding the bag when the bottom drops out.

Ed Williams

04-06-2005, 03:56 PM

...in the Great and Mighty Land of Poz, and we find there the below referenced thread which discusses "How Do Successful Authors Do it":

http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/main/11895.htm

To which I'd love to add, "They get the hell away from PA just as soon as they possibly can!"

Some of my esteemed colleagues added the following:

Double X suggested this as the new PA avatar:

http://www.absolutepunk.net/images/smilies/deal2.gif

Not bad at all, I would add something of a graveyard motif in the background, signifying the literary death of any book submitted to and accepted by PA, the sure-to-be impending death of PA, and as a tribute to our two-time-dead-and-in-the-grave-friend Shemp.

Diana, my award winning and super cool colleague, slipped up and said the following in reference to the Kevster:

Yeah, there we were reclining on the bed next to each other...darn, I knew that would come back to bite me.Diana, you know I love ya, but some things I just do not need to hear before eating breakfast. I do hope you've had a tetanus shot recently, though.

The vivacious KellyS put up a bunch of avatars, but since she is the coolest amongst all who are cool, I will mention her anyway.

Finally, for your humble consideration, here is an avatar featuring a newly signed PA author's orientation program:

http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/waffen/violent-smiley-084.gif

Another day beckons us all, let us go forth and pickle PA in the most expeditious ways possible....

Sher2

04-06-2005, 05:05 PM

Finally, for your humble consideration, here is an avatar featuring a newly signed PA author's orientation program:

http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/waffen/violent-smiley-084.gif

Another day beckons us all, let us go forth and pickle PA in the most expeditious ways possible....
Yep, that captures the essence of the orientation I went through, all right. :ROFL: Note to newbie PAers: During orientation, never ask Larry if that's a pickle in his pocket. :roll:

Sparhawk

04-06-2005, 05:20 PM

I think Bonnie should e-mail that guy and tell him about her experiences.

Bonnie's idea, if IIRC, was (is?) a gift shop that happened to sell some PA books. This is (yet again) a bookstore stocked entirely of nothing but PA books. It will have to be staffed, rent will have to be paid, utilities turned on. It's a financial tragedy just waiting to happen.

I just don't get it? Maybe I'm missing something or maybe I'm just stupid.

1. Send me copies of your books to sell on consignment for this possible bookstore.

Again, here is the brilliance of the PA business model. Authors will buy their books from PA, get no royalties out of it because it's an Author purchase. Said Authors will then eat the cost of their books and absorb the shipping costs to send their books to this store in the hopes that people will frequent this store to buy their books.

Again. The PA sales staff is out in full force while PA sits back and earns the cash for a writers sweat and toil. PA gets is money up front with absolutly no risk.

What would happen if 10,000 writers each sent in 2 copies of their book to this store? Well, there's 20,000 books from unknown Authors (LIKE ME !!) that have no promotional force to push these books.

Also, how much does the proprieter of the book store take off the top to cover operating expenses of said store ??

My reply would be: Show me some more details before I commit anything, especially my money in the form of books and shipping costs.

On a happier note; Diane, my son did a report on XXXXXXXXXX yesterday for his English Class. HE gave your book 5 stars. You have a new fan. He said it was one of the best books he's ever read. I happen to agree with him. ;)

MadScientistMatt

04-06-2005, 05:23 PM

I don't want this to come across as author-bashing, but the fact this above mentioned author's scientific theory is being published by PA (and not a scientific journal or other scholarly publisher) is a testament to what PA really is.

If I'd never heard of PA at all or only heard glowing things about them, and I came across this book, I would have an immediate sour opinion. I only know a little about scholarly publishing--my brother is one of those smart science guys, and he gets papers published in those peer-reviewed journals now and then. I do know enough that PA was stupid to accept this book. If by chance anyone happens to notice this book, the online science community will be very vocal with their ridicule. They love stuff like this.

I seem to remember jck commenting in another thread that neither the publishing establishment nor the scientific establishment would touch his book. He was commenting about how scientists would not accept his theories. Wish I could remember the thread but the PA board doesn't have a decent search engine. Meanwhile he comments about how he seems to only skim through quantum physics books without trying to fully understand them. I'm not sure any author bashing is necessary when his comments really speak for themselves.

You know, trying to find threads on the PA board makes me wonder if PA isn't planning another way to make money. Are they planning to introduce the world's first message board search feature to require entering a credit card number?

James D. Macdonald

04-06-2005, 05:28 PM

http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/8651.htm

Oh, dear. No, I don't think anyone should tell him. Let him find out for himself that even if he gets his stock for free that non-returnable books cost him money in the form of the shelf-space that they take up. Let him learn on his own that nothing on earth can make people buy books they don't want. Let him find out for himself that bookselling even with reasonably priced books by known authors isn't a high-profit business.

He's playing with OPM -- Other People's Money. He's taking money from investors, he's taking money from authors (they bought the books, they paid shipping). What's he bringing to the table? Let it be the experience he's about to have.

This is what -- the third? fourth? bookstore that was going to be opened that specialized in PA books. The information that he needs is out here. Let him find out for himself why it's important to do research.

DaveKuzminski

04-06-2005, 05:34 PM

I'm waiting for PA to have one of their shills announce a bookstore opening that's different from all the rest because it features a written contract guaranteeing virtually nothing just like PA. However, unknown to the authors, the books will be received by a PA rep who then fills PA author orders with their own recycled books. That way, PA can cut out the printing cost and screw one more victim.

AnneMarble

04-06-2005, 05:35 PM

Sheryl Nantus

04-06-2005, 05:53 PM

I got the March issue of Chronicle magazine (which describes itself as SF, Fantasy, & Horror's Monthly Trade Journal) in the mail yesterday. The second item from the top on the cover is:
"Writers
Expose
Vanity
Publisher"

The article inside is more than one-half a page. It also describes some guy called "the inimitable James Macdonald." :) However, it doesn't mention authorsmarket.net, instead saying the whole thing started because of "what could only be described as taunts on an Internet bulletin board."

ooh... famous, we is.

fwiw, that author who believes that her book is going to be stocked everywhere - the original post is up at Authors Den in their forum. I posted a reply, but nothing yet.

as you can probably guess I pointed out a few 'orrible facts of life.

the sadder thing is that she's a disabled single mother - another victim of PublishAmerica.

:Headbang:

James D. Macdonald

04-06-2005, 06:10 PM

fwiw, that author who believes that her book is going to be stocked everywhere - the original post is up at Authors Den in their forum. I posted a reply, but nothing yet.

She saw "available" and read "stocked." Exactly as PA intended.

DaveKuzminski

04-06-2005, 06:21 PM

She saw "available" and read "stocked." Exactly as PA intended.

PA should be forced to append "to order" to what they state so that there's less confusion. However, I doubt that will come to pass.

Sher2

04-06-2005, 06:25 PM

PA should be forced to append "to order" to what they state so that there's less confusion. However, I doubt that will come to pass.
Never happen. The "A" in PA is for ambiguity. :Smack:

MadScientistMatt

04-06-2005, 06:29 PM

PublishAmbiguity? That's another nickname with some real potential, particularly for manuscripts that could be cleared up a little with a good editor. How many other names have we given them?

PublishAnyone
PublishEveryoneInAmerica
PimpAmerica

Sher2

04-06-2005, 06:32 PM

robeiae

04-06-2005, 06:45 PM

She saw "available" and read "stocked." Exactly as PA intended.

Well, to leap to PA's defense, the FAQ page on their site does say:
Bookstores do not automatically put a book on their shelves. All stores have full access to our books, but in order to actually stock them, they must be convinced that the book will sell. Author: there is work to be done!
Of course, you would have to go look for this, but I am sure it is sufficient, legallly speaking, to keep them out of trouble.

To follow this tangent for a second, the PA practive of using language to deceive the unwary but also having the "truth" somewhere in its documentations/advertising is far to common in many, many industries. This suggests that proper research is always needed before agreeing to any kind of contractual arrangement or even general purchase. I note this only because you would hope that writers, of all people, knew the importance of research. Of course, when you have supposed writers spouting off about quantum theory but admitting to knowing little about it, this is obviously only a pipe dream...

Rob

I grow tired of Animal House (mostly because I can't remember any more lines). How about this:

Sandy: Carl,I want you to kill all the gooferson the course!
Carl: Check me if I'm wrong Sandy, but if I kill all the golfers, they're gonna lock me up and throw away the key!
Sandy: Oooopth! Not goofers man, GOOFERS!...the little brown furry things!
Carl: Oh, we can do that...we don't even need a reason!
Sandy: Aiy, do it man!
Carl: Okay, let's do the same thing but with gophers.