Comma confusion - question for reph and others

[Tish Davidson]

I am going to the store because I need flour to bake your birthday cake.

I am going to the bakery, and I need to stop at the pharmacy.

Because I need flour, I am going to the store.

Do you need a comma in sentence #1 between store and because

Are the commas in sentences #2 and #3 correct?

[maestrowork]

No.

Correct.

Correct.

[sunandshadow]

Agree with maestrowork. The only time I would ever consider putting a comma in #1 is if it was in dialogue, and I wanted to show that the speaker was hesitating before adding the second clause.

[maestrowork]

Agree with maestrowork. The only time I would ever consider putting a comma in #1 is if it was in dialogue, and I wanted to show that the speaker was hesitating before adding the second clause.

In that case, I'd do: "I need to go to the store, to buy some milk."

[reph]

No.

Correct.

Correct.
Correct.

[Tish Davidson]

Thanks, an editor tried to tell me today that sentence #1 needed a comma because "because" should be treated like a coordinating conjunction (and, or) and needed a comma if it was followed by a complete sentence (I need to ...cake). That didn't seem right to me. I suppose that's why editors hire copyeditors.

[Mistook]

Thanks, an editor tried to tell me today that sentence #1 needed a comma because "because" should be treated like a coordinating conjunction (and, or) and needed a comma if it was followed by a complete sentence (I need to ...cake). That didn't seem right to me. I suppose that's why editors hire copyeditors.


I've been told before to eliminate comma's wherever the pause comes naturally. According to that theory, a comma after "because" can work, but isn't necessary, since the pause is understood.

[reph]

Tell that editor that "I am going to the store, because I need flour" makes no sense as an answer to "Why are you going to the store?"

[Jamesaritchie]

Tell that editor that "I am going to the store, because I need flour" makes no sense as an answer to "Why are you going to the store?"

But turn it around and it needs a comma. "Because I need flour, I am going to the store."

I think the best answer to "Why are you going to the store" would simply be "Because I need flour."

[maestrowork]

That's the same as these two constructs:

I stopped eating after I finished my coffee. (no comma before "after")

After I finished my coffee, I stopped eating. (there's a comma)



It's not "SO VERY WRONG" if you insist on putting a pause after "after" in the first sentence -- it's probably better served in dialogue.

[triceretops]

While were on this:

"He wasn't aware that (Captain Olivia Halch) was standing at the doorway."

Should Captain be capitalized?

He said, "don't take that tone with me."

Should don't be caps or lower?

Appreciate the help,

Tri

[Jamesaritchie]

While were on this:

"He wasn't aware that (Captain Olivia Halch) was standing at the doorway."

Should Captain be capitalized?

He said, "don't take that tone with me."

Should don't be caps or lower?

Appreciate the help,

Tri

Yes, "Captain" should be capitalized. The rank and/or title is capitalized when referring to a specific person.

Yes, "Don't" should be capitalized because it's the start of the sentence the person said.

[maestrowork]

Yes on both counts.

Now if you say, "the captain, Olivia Halch," it's not capitalized.

[Aconite]

Now if you say, "the captain, Olivia Halch," it's not capitalized.
Eh, it gets trickier there. If Captain Olivia Halch is called "the Captain" by her crew, "the Captain, Olivia Halch," can also be correct. "Olivia Halch, captain of the ship," may make your point better.

[Tish Davidson]

The general rule is that if the title is attached to the name, it is caplitalized. If it is descriptive, it is not.

President George Bush,

George Bush, the president of the United States

the president of United Widgets, Mary Clark

The University of Chicago

Chicago's finest university

[Aconite]

The general rule is that if the title is attached to the name, it is caplitalized. If it is descriptive, it is not.
Which starts going wonky when titles are used as nicknames.

[triceretops]

Man did I screw up. That's what first draft edits are for, wot? I really appreciate that.

Now, for names that I make up and our exclusive to my sci-fi script. Example:

Mikus noticed that it was a landcruncher model made by the Chummer factory.

The term "landcruncher" denotes what type of vehicle I have here. The word "Chummer" states the manufacturer (Like Hummer).

So, is that sentence correct? Lowercase landcruncher? Uppercase Chummer?

Tri

[Jamesaritchie]

Thanks, an editor tried to tell me today that sentence #1 needed a comma because "because" should be treated like a coordinating conjunction (and, or) and needed a comma if it was followed by a complete sentence (I need to ...cake). That didn't seem right to me. I suppose that's why editors hire copyeditors.

Unfortunately, a great many editors have no copyeditor to fall back on. This is pretty basic stuff any editor should know, and it's a little frightening that you've found one who doesn't know it.

It's rarely possible to judge where a comma should go by whether or not the speaker would pause in a given spot, but this is one time where it works well. The editor should say the sentence aloud. Or have someone say it to him. There is no pause.

It really might help if the editor turned the sentence around and made a comma necessary. "Because I need flour to bake your birthday cake, I am going to the store."

"Because" must be joined to one independent clause or the other, and no matter which you choose, you lose an independent clause. "I am going to the store because," is not an independent clause, and ",because I need flour to bake your birthday cake" is not an independent clause.

The only way to avoid this would be to place a comma before and after "because," which makes no sense at all.

There's even a "because clause" rule. "The only time a "because clause" should be set off with a comma is if the meaning of the sentence will be misunderstood without the comma."

The only example of this I could find on the web was :
"I knew that President Nixon would resign that morning, because my sister-in-law worked in the White House and she called me with the news."

Without that comma, many might read the sentence to say that Nixon's resignation was the fault of my sister-in-law. Though I doubt I'd use a comma in this sentence. The meaning seems clear enough to me.

But if "because" is essential to the meaning of the first independent clause, or if it explains the first independent clause, and the sentence is readily understood, then the "because clause" rule should always be followed.

In other words, as long as the meaning of the sentence is clear, no comma should be ever used before a "because clause."

[Jamesaritchie]

Which starts going wonky when titles are used as nicknames.

It should still work the same way with nicknames. Can you give me an example?

[rich]

An aside: I can't believe Tish got stuck (or thought she might've.) If I had a muse Tish would be her guidance conselor.

[reph]

Mikus noticed that it was a landcruncher model made by the Chummer factory.

The term "landcruncher" denotes what type of vehicle I have here. The word "Chummer" states the manufacturer (Like Hummer).
I thought "Hummer" was the name of a model. No? I plead ignorance about vehicles.

Correct: "Mikus noticed that it was a Celica made by the Toyota factory."
"Mikus noticed that it was a sedan made by General Motors."

About "Captain" and similar titles: In narration, you don't write "The Captain drank too much rum" even if the crew members habitually call this person "the captain" or "Captain" instead of using her name. In dialogue, you can have "Hey, Captain, the ropes are frayed," Yeoman Smith said.

If a character's nickname is "Captain," you use that, with the cap, just like a personal name, but no "the." Big Smitty shouted something to Captain about the ropes.

Deciding about a comma in "because" sentences is important when the first clause contains a negative.

Mary didn't go to the party because John would be there. (Mary went for some other reason, not to see John.)

Mary didn't go to the party, because John would be there. (Mary stayed away to avoid John.)

[Aconite]

If a character's nickname is "Captain," you use that, with the cap, just like a personal name, but no "the." Big Smitty shouted something to Captain about the ropes.
This is true, but I'm talking about something slightly different, and maybe I wasn't clear about that. I meant a situation where the nickname is not "Captain," but "the Captain." Perhaps that should be "The Captain," then, but that looks odd to me. I'm thinking of something along the lines of Billy the Kid, or the person who talks to herself being called the Mumbler. You don't address her as "Mumbler," but you talk about her as "the Mumbler."

[Aconite]

It should still work the same way with nicknames. Can you give me an example?

There's Coach Harrison.
She's our coach.
Hey, Coach, can you come here a minute?

versus

Hey, mister, watch where you're going!

[Mistook]

Is this right or wrong -

She went to open the door marked, G, but it was locked.

[SRHowen]

She went to the door marked G, but it was locked.

She went to the door marked with a "G," but it was locked.

[DirtySyko]

She went to the door marked G, but it was locked.

She went to the door marked with a "G," but it was locked.

Wouldn't it be:

She went to the door marked with a "G", but it was locked.

If the door was marked with a "G," wouldn't that mean the door would have a G and a comma next to the G? I figure the comma would have to be after the quotations.

[reph]

Wouldn't it be:

She went to the door marked with a "G", but it was locked.

If the door was marked with a "G," wouldn't that mean the door would have a G and a comma next to the G? I figure the comma would have to be after the quotations.
Not in U.S. style. In British style, it would be.

She went to the door marked "G." It was locked. That doesn't mean the door had a G and a period.

By the Chicago manual, though, single letters are in ital, so–

She went to the door marked G, but it was locked.

[reph]

I meant a situation where the nickname is not "Captain," but "the Captain." Perhaps that should be "The Captain," then, but that looks odd to me. I'm thinking of something along the lines of Billy the Kid, or the person who talks to herself being called the Mumbler. You don't address her as "Mumbler," but you talk about her as "the Mumbler."
That's a hard one. Nicknames are usually used in informal situations that involve speech, not writing; people aren't thinking about capitalization, they just talk. The closest things in print for which a convention exists are epithets, like "the Great White Hope" or "the Maid of Orleans." I agree, a cap on "the" looks odd.

It seems to me Fritz Leiber called some nameless characters that way.

[Jamesaritchie]

There's Coach Harrison.
She's our coach.
Hey, Coach, can you come here a minute?

versus

Hey, mister, watch where you're going!

Ah, I see what you mean, though "mister" isn't a nickname, but simply a form of address for any male.

[Tish Davidson]

Unfortunately, a great many editors have no copyeditor to fall back on. This is pretty basic stuff any editor should know, and it's a little frightening that you've found one who doesn't know it.


Ah, but you forget that we're the last American generation that had grammar drills and had to diagram sentences.