PETA Vs. Vick. . . .

[Bird of Prey]

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=940 border=0><TBODY><TR vAlign=top><TD align=left><TABLE id=topTools cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD>PETA remains skeptical of Vick, considers protests at games</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><!--startclickprintexclude--><TABLE height=25 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=datestamp><SCRIPT type=text/javascript>document.write(niceDate('8/14/2009 6:51 PM'));</SCRIPT></TD><TD align=right><!-- EdSysObj ID="SSI-B" FRAGMENTID="13417811" rberthol -->| <!-- /EdSysObj --></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><!--endclickprintexclude-->


</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left><TABLE style="FLOAT: left" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0><TBODY><TR><TD>

<!-- ContentCoreElement ID="5121884e-ea9f-49c4-97ab-b8471a5899b8", DateTime="8/14/2009 6:52:19 PM" --><TABLE class=vaOuter cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=245 border=0 xmlns:fo="http://www.w3.org/1999/XSL/Format"><TBODY><TR><TD colSpan=2 height=20>http://images.usatoday.com/_common/_images/clear.gif</TD></TR><TR><TD width=12>http://images.usatoday.com/_common/_images/clear.gif</TD><TD><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top colSpan=2>http://images.usatoday.com/_common/_images/clear.gif</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top colSpan=2>http://images.usatoday.com/_common/_images/clear.gif</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top colSpan=2><LINK href="http://css.usatoday.com/_common/_styles/_inside/va-styles.css" type=text/css rel=stylesheet></LINK><SCRIPT language=JavaScript src="http://js.usatoday.com/_common/_scripts/va-expansion.js"></SCRIPT><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top width=5>http://images.usatoday.com/_common/_images/clear.gif</TD><TD class=vaLink vAlign=top width=228></TD></TR><TR><TD colSpan=2>http://images.usatoday.com/_common/_images/clear.gif</TD></TR><TR><TD bgColor=#cccccc colSpan=2>http://images.usatoday.com/_common/_images/clear.gif</TD></TR><TR><TD colSpan=2>http://images.usatoday.com/_common/_images/clear.gif</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top width=5>http://images.usatoday.com/_common/_images/clear.gif</TD><TD class=vaLink vAlign=top width=228></TD></TR><TR><TD colSpan=2>http://images.usatoday.com/_common/_images/clear.gif</TD></TR><TR><TD bgColor=#cccccc colSpan=2>http://images.usatoday.com/_common/_images/clear.gif</TD></TR><TR><TD colSpan=2>http://images.usatoday.com/_common/_images/clear.gif</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top width=5>http://images.usatoday.com/_common/_images/clear.gif</TD><TD class=vaLink vAlign=top width=228></TD></TR><TR><TD colSpan=2>http://images.usatoday.com/_common/_images/clear.gif</TD></TR><TR><TD bgColor=#cccccc colSpan=2>http://images.usatoday.com/_common/_images/clear.gif</TD></TR><TR><TD colSpan=2>http://images.usatoday.com/_common/_images/clear.gif</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top width=5>http://images.usatoday.com/_common/_images/clear.gif</TD><TD class=vaLink vAlign=top width=228></TD></TR><TR><TD colSpan=2>http://images.usatoday.com/_common/_images/clear.gif</TD></TR><TR><TD bgColor=#cccccc colSpan=2>http://images.usatoday.com/_common/_images/clear.gif</TD></TR><TR><TD colSpan=2>http://images.usatoday.com/_common/_images/clear.gif</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top width=5>http://images.usatoday.com/_common/_images/clear.gif</TD><TD class=vaLink vAlign=top width=228></TD></TR><TR><TD colSpan=2>http://images.usatoday.com/_common/_images/clear.gif</TD></TR><TR><TD bgColor=#cccccc colSpan=2>http://images.usatoday.com/_common/_images/clear.gif</TD></TR><TR><TD colSpan=2>http://images.usatoday.com/_common/_images/clear.gif</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top width=5>http://images.usatoday.com/_common/_images/clear.gif</TD><TD class=vaLink vAlign=top width=228></TD></TR><TR><TD colSpan=2>http://images.usatoday.com/_common/_images/clear.gif</TD></TR><TR><TD bgColor=#cccccc colSpan=2>http://images.usatoday.com/_common/_images/clear.gif</TD></TR><TR><TD colSpan=2>http://images.usatoday.com/_common/_images/clear.gif</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top width=5>http://images.usatoday.com/_common/_images/clear.gif</TD><TD class=vaLink vAlign=top width=228></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD colSpan=2 height=20>http://images.usatoday.com/_common/_images/clear.gif</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

<!-- End ContentCoreElement ID="5121884e-ea9f-49c4-97ab-b8471a5899b8" -->








</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
By Tom Pedulla, USA TODAYDan Shannon, a spokesman for People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (http://content.usatoday.com/topics/topic/People+for+the+Ethical+Treatment+of+Animals) (PETA), questioned the sincerity of Michael Vick (http://content.usatoday.com/topics/topic/People/Athletes/NFL/Michael+Vick)'s expressed remorse hours after the quarterback was introduced Friday as a member of the Philadelphia Eagles.

"Not quite comfortable is how we feel about it," said Shannon. "It's possible he's on the right path and only time will tell. But we, as an organization, haven't seen sufficient evidence of that."
Vick took an eight-hour course offered by PETA, Developing Empathy for Animals, on Sept. 18, 2007.
According to Shannon, PETA's discomfort stemmed from months of discussions with Vick about broadcasting public service announcements aimed at helping to eliminate dogfighting. He said PETA suspected that the former NFL (http://content.usatoday.com/topics/topic/National+Football+League) star was more interested in repairing his image than the cause itself and ended the talks in late January.
"It's hard to say what's really going on inside the guy," Shannon said. "Our worry was that he was doing it as a public relations move to try to regain his public image.
"We had concerns he was in it for personal gain rather than a genuine desire to help animals."
Shannon said PETA asked Vick to undergo a psychiatric evaluation in order to eliminate those worries. He refused. The quarterback is, however, working with the Humane Society.
PETA is considering holding protests whenever and wherever Vick plays for the Philadelphia Eagles. Shannon also emphasized the organization's desire to have the NFL formally add cruelty to animals as part of its personal conduct policy.
Brian McCarthy, a spokesman for the league, said such action is unnecessary.
"It goes without saying that such conduct violates the personal conduct policy," McCarthy said. "It is already covered, as the Michael Vick case demonstrates."

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/eagles/2009-08-14-peta-response-vick_N.htm



I'm with PETA.



</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

[William Haskins]

peta's record of dog killing makes michael vick look like an amateur chump.

[Bird of Prey]

peta's record of dog killing makes michael vick look like an amateur chump.


I think you're mistaking PETA for the Humane Society, which I don't support. . . . .

But for the sake of shits and giggles, let's assume PETA supported euthanasia. So, that's your idea of butchery?? What's your position on torturing dogs that don't bloody up enough to make the grade? What's your position on hanging a dog - a DOG - because he didn't take enough lacerations and broken bones and internal injuries for you? You know? Vick is lower than pond scum. He's so vile he defies definition. . . . .

[Zoombie]

I don't give two flying shits what PETA thinks cause, well, they're a bunch of dicks.

[William Haskins]

i think what vick did was barbaric and reprehensible. i think what peta does is barbaric and reprehensible.

[William Haskins]

I think you're mistaking PETA for the Humane Society, which I don't support. . . . .

i'm not mistaking anything. and it seems you may be turned around backwards.

PETA kills 85 percent of the animals it takes in, and finds adoptive homes for just 14 percent. By contrast, the Norfolk SPCA, whose shelter is located less than 4 miles from PETA's headquarters, found adoptive homes for 73 percent of its animals in 2003 (http://www.petakillsanimals.com/pressRelease_detail.cfm?id=105).

[KTC]

I don't give two flying shits what PETA thinks cause, well, they're a bunch of dicks.

agreed. morons.

[escritora]

Other animal protection agencies near PETA's Virginia headquarters "put down" a much smaller percentage of the animals entrusted to them. In 2003 the Norfolk SPCA found adoptive homes for 73 percent of its animals. The Virginia Beach SPCA adopted out 66 percent. PETA could only manage 14 percent.

For a fair comparison, it would be interesting to know the amount of animals in each shelter.

ETA: There's a graph that shows how many animals PETA shelters. I'll come back with numbers.


Received (2008) 2,216
adopted 7
killed 2,124
transferred 34
% killed 95.8
% adopted 0.32


Wow. Those numbers are pathetic.

[Zoombie]

Well the flat number, according to the link, was about 10,000 animals.

That's a lot of dead animals, specially for a group that rigorously screams at other animal shelters...

[Bird of Prey]

i'm not mistaking anything. and it seems you may be turned around backwards.

Check your source. As you should know, anybody can say anything. . . .

[escritora]

2006 Stats from the Virginia Department of Agriculture (http://www.virginia.gov/vdacs_ar/cgi-bin/Vdacs_search.cgi?link_select=facility&form=fac_select&fac_num=157&year=2006) indicates PETA euthanized 2,981 animals

In 2007 (http://www.virginia.gov/vdacs_ar/cgi-bin/Vdacs_search.cgi?link_select=facility&form=fac_select&fac_num=157&year=2007) 1851 euthanized

[William Haskins]

yep.

their own disclosure forms are good enough for me.

[whistlelock]

PETA ain't all it wants the public to think it is.

[Bird of Prey]

2006 Stats from the Virginia Department of Agriculture (http://www.virginia.gov/vdacs_ar/cgi-bin/Vdacs_search.cgi?link_select=facility&form=fac_select&fac_num=157&year=2006) indicates PETA euthanized 2,981 animals

In 2007 (http://www.virginia.gov/vdacs_ar/cgi-bin/Vdacs_search.cgi?link_select=facility&form=fac_select&fac_num=157&year=2007) 1851 euthanized


I'm aware. I've seen the same figures. That hardly constitutes a national campaign. The reasons were valid in the eyes of the uh, jerks in Virginia. Nevertheless, may I remind those interested that the animals were not HUNG to death or tortured to death or forced to fight to death, which is the issue. Regardless, the Virginia record is disgusting, particularly in the eyes of the advocates of PETA.

Look, for some reason, euthanasia is the answer to a lot of people when pets aren't adopted. I don't know why. I guess it's about money. But it's so much easier in my view to simply make it nationally mandatory to spay or neuter your pet. Licenses are given to breeders, whether it be mixed breeds or whatever. . Why can't we make it hard enough to get an animal that in this thow away society, they're treasured??

[Jersey Chick]

To play devil's advocate (because I can't stand PETA any more than I can Vick) - no reasons are listed for euthanizing - it is possible that there were valid reasons (though that number is amazingly high.)

Still, they will protest because that is where the TV cameras will be. That's what PETA salivates over - the publicity. I remember when the original Survivor cast killed a rat. A rat. PETA went nuts over it. Who goes nuts over killing a rat?

[Bird of Prey]

To play devil's advocate (because I can't stand PETA any more than I can Vick) - no reasons are listed for euthanizing - it is possible that there were valid reasons (though that number is amazingly high.)

Still, they will protest because that is where the TV cameras will be. That's what PETA salivates over - the publicity. I remember when the original Survivor cast killed a rat. A rat. PETA went nuts over it. Who goes nuts over killing a rat?


Because there was not reason to kill it? What the fuck is it with people thinking killing mercilessly for entertainment is O.K?

You wanna die to entertain somebody??

[escritora]

BoP, you made a valid point about checking sources. So I decided to research the organization Haskins linked to and noticed there was a conflict of interest (IMO). I then went one step further to read PETA's actual reporting and posted those numbers. And your response is "I'm aware." Really? Then why question the source? Why not just acknowledge the numbers and move on?

[Delhomeboy]

I think the biggest problem here is that Vick got a year in prison for dogfighting, while fellow NFL player Donte Stallworth KILLED A MAN and gets probation.

Dog fighting's a terrible thing, but come on. I think America does get its priorities mixed up sometimes...

The man's served his time, leave him alone. And, I hate Vick, so coming to his defense has bile coming up my throat as we speak.

[Jersey Chick]

Because there was not reason to kill it? What the fuck is it with people thinking killing mercilessly for entertainment is O.K?

You wanna die to entertain somebody??
Um... first off people and rats are not exactly comparable.

Second - I believe the Survivor rat was killed and eaten - because they were hungry - they ate it.

And I think it's a bit overboard to call for pickets and protests over a rat. Just a bit...

[Jcomp]

Geezus Herschel Christoferson.

Did this need another thread? There's already a Mike Vick thread in Office Party and P&E. Whatever happened to "[a football player] is no more deserving of a thread here than a guy down the street."

[STKlingaman]

How about the people against the judges
that give out 24 day sentences for
DUI manslaughter?

Crime will persist until, punishment
exceeds the crime, drinking and getting
behind the wheel is a crime not a
disease.

Why are people not responsible for there
actions, and why is our government letting
them off.
If you run your business into the ground,
will the government rescue you?
Bad management being bailed out with
our tax dollars, putting us deeper in debt.
you can fail in business, make millions in
bonuses, fire thousands of workers, and
then have the government say "wanna try
again?" not YOU'RE FIRED!

Sounds very wrong to me.

It's not we the people,
it's they the wealthy people, being
placed above the needs of 'we the people'.

now thats a rant,
my two cents

[benbradley]

I wrote this for one of the other threads and then chickened out, but since I saved the file and it fits very well here, I might as well, so here it is:
Vick has paid far more than others have. Tens of millions of dollars, nearly two years of custody. People in my (football drenched) area abuse animals and either get their cases thrown out or pay a small fine. So Peta is hurting itself by continuing to lobby against Vick, making themselves look vengeful. Football fans are not natural Peta supporters, so it's time for them to shut up and let the man move on.
I'll say this for Vick. Once he was caught and arrested, he became contrite, apologetic, etc., bla bla bla. In July 2007 he spoke eloquently for a half hour about disappointing fans and kids, apologized to the Falcons owners for lying to them, and discussed his newfound relationship with Jesus Christ. Whether he's sincere or had a "jailhouse conversion" at the advice of attorneys and all to save what he could of his pro football career is impossible to tell, but I'll give him credit for consistently putting on the appearance of "turning around."

The law worked in the case of Vick. He was doing terrible things to dogs, and now (as far as anyone knows, and he's certainly under a microscope) he doesn't, and he likely never will again.

Everything I've read about PETA indicates it's a shameless organization with members willing to break laws and hurt people to allegedly further its mission, and I can't imagine any "true" member apologizing for anything they might have done, including risking or taking human life, in "the name of protecting animals."
Geezus Herschel Christoferson.

Did this need another thread? There's already a Mike Vick thread in Office Party and P&E. Whatever happened to "[a football player] is no more deserving of a thread here than a guy down the street."
Well, it prompted me to post the above...

[C.bronco]

I can't really talk because I have a mouth full of "Sea Kittens." Nom nom nom.
What was the question?

[C.bronco]

Dog fighting, cock fighting, et. al. really is horrible, however, and I am happy whenever I hear about such rings being broken up in my area, despite my snarky comments.

[TabithaTodd]

peta's record of dog killing makes michael vick look like an amateur chump.

BINGO! I like the ideology of PETA but they are completely hypocritical.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0exLa6saV9o

[dgrintalis]

I think that anyone involved in animal-fighting is lower than dog turds and slug slime combined. My gut feeling is that everything Vick says now is just to help his image, nothing more.

I saw a mention above about PETA and the Humane Society and I just want to let everyone know that my friend is the Senior VP of HSUS and trust me, they are nothing like PETA. Nothing. I don't support PETA, but I am huge supporter of HSUS.

[Nightfly]

Well said Benbradley. In addition, I am an animal lover - especially dogs - and what Vick did was barbaric but the courts handed out his sentence and he served it. I don't say we forget or that we let him forget but he deserves a second chance. There are enough people around him who think he's worth it and they can't all be about the money so I say we give them the benefit of the doubt in their assessment. It is more worthwhile to have a society that believes in redemption than in "monsters."

[dgiharris]

My view on this is fairly simple. If you commit a crime and have been punished, then that is that.

For some reason, our Puritan roots demand a sorta stigma that should follow you forever. This is a serious hole in our justice system and societal consciousness which is partially responsible for the runaway train effect that contributes to people re-offending and becoming career criminals.

You commit a crime, serve your time, get out, try to get a job, but no one will hire you. So, what do you do for money/food? Commit a crime, go to prison, get out, can't get a job, go back to crime, rinse and repeat.

But what about child rapists? Doesn't matter. As a society, we have decided child rape does not warrant life imprisonment/death penalty. Therefore, when the rapist has served his punishment as determined by our laws, then he/she should be forgiven.

But pedophilia has no cure? In this case, that represents a 'hole' in our punishment/rehabilitiation system. But my argument still holds. And evidence of my argument can be seen in the data. American prisons have been steadily growing, year after year. And the majority of criminal are repeat offenders.

In short, once you've served your time and paid your debt to society, it is immoral for society to still punish you IMHO.

Mel...

I agree

[Don]

Mel, don't look now, but both sides of your split personality have been posting again -- and they're agreeing with each other. :D

[benbradley]

I can't really talk because I have a mouth full of "Sea Kittens." Nom nom nom.
What was the question?
Now I'm hungry for land fish...

[Don]

Is land fish the new chicken, or the new lamb? I get confused.

[C.bronco]

And they are easier to catch. This is why I don't hunt: I'd only want to catch the things I want to eat, and there is no sport in hunting cows and pigs. Turkeys are only difficult if they are wild, but the ones Purdue raises just kinda wander around slowly, and tend to be tastier, what with all the things they are fed with. Chickens too. They just hang out.

I really like shellfish too! They are more for collecting than catching. I have one thing to say: steamers with lemon and butter! Lobster Rolls! (Okay, that's two things.)

HOWEVER, I would never pit animals against eachother in mortal combat for sport. That really isn't right in any sense.

[Zoombie]

What about Democratic/Republican debates? Do we have to ban those too?

[C.bronco]

Not if they have steamers!



Or ribs. Mmmm!

[Lucky Jim]

peta's record of dog killing makes michael vick look like an amateur chump.

And cat killing. PETA is a money raising organisation. Ingrid Newkirk defends the killing of "rescued animals" saying they'd only die anyway. That's similar to the excuses made by fur trappers. I hate PETA.

[Lucky Jim]

2006 Stats from the Virginia Department of Agriculture (http://www.virginia.gov/vdacs_ar/cgi-bin/Vdacs_search.cgi?link_select=facility&form=fac_select&fac_num=157&year=2006) indicates PETA euthanized 2,981 animals

In 2007 (http://www.virginia.gov/vdacs_ar/cgi-bin/Vdacs_search.cgi?link_select=facility&form=fac_select&fac_num=157&year=2007) 1851 euthanized

Euthanized = killed. Let's not get caught up in euphemisms.

[Lucky Jim]

Still, they will protest because that is where the TV cameras will be. That's what PETA salivates over - the publicity. I remember when the original Survivor cast killed a rat. A rat. PETA went nuts over it. Who goes nuts over killing a rat?

People who love and keep rats as pets. (not me, but...)

[BenPanced]

http://pics.livejournal.com/benpanced/pic/000cgrke

[blacbird]

As much as I detest what Michael Vick did, if this choice is forced upon me, I'll take Michael Vick.

caw

[nighttimer]

But for the sake of shits and giggles, let's assume PETA supported euthanasia. So, that's your idea of butchery?? What's your position on torturing dogs that don't bloody up enough to make the grade? What's your position on hanging a dog - a DOG - because he didn't take enough lacerations and broken bones and internal injuries for you? You know? Vick is lower than pond scum. He's so vile he defies definition. . . . .

If Vick is lower than pond scum what is PETA?

A bunch of dog-killing assholes too. (http://petakillsanimals.com/)

PETA are the same assholes who produced this "comic book" for the kiddies:

http://www.targetofopportunity.com/mommykills.jpg

You have to be really sick manipulative bastards to try and go through kids to get at their parents this way.

PETA also sexually exploits women with their "I'd Rather Go Naked Than Wear Fur" ad campaigns.

These sanctimonious jerks are trying to shove their morality down society's throat and if you disagree with them that makes you some sort of animal-killing fascist.

It's cool to be for the rights of animals, but not at the expense of a man's right to attempt to pick up the pieces of his life after he's done his time in jail and paid his debt to society.

That's "debt to society," not "debt to PETA."

[aadams73]

and discussed his newfound relationship with Jesus Christ. Whether he's sincere or had a "jailhouse conversion"


:ROFL:

I love how these pieces of shit always pretend to "find Jesus." They're such a freakin' cliche.

And PETA exists to promote itself--nothing more. It's the Paris Hilton of the charity world.

[Zoombie]

Seriously, if I go to jail for my eventual plans for global domination, I'm not finding Jesus: I'm gonna come out either a Buddhist or a Taoist.

[Fran]

PETA don't have much of a presence over here but I wouldn't support them if they did. I have nothing to do with any organisation that attacks people or vandalises their property. Throw paint over Beyonce Knowles's fur coat all you like, but that just means she'll have to go out and buy another one, causing even more animals to suffer. If someone's got no conscience about wearing fur being attacked won't change their mind.

As for Vick, who I'd never heard of before and plays an incomprehensible sport, I'm saddened but not surprised. Footballers over here are convincted of all sorts and seem to continue their careers with no mention of it again. The goalkeeper (I don't know his name) who was convicted of killing two little boys while drink-driving may be able to carry on once he gets out the jail, but I think he'll be a benchmark - if no one'll sign him I'll be very impressed, but I'm not holding my breath. I don't know why such collective amnesia seems to exist when it comes to some sports.

[Bartholomew]

I think you're mistaking PETA for the Humane Society, which I don't support. . . . .

But for the sake of shits and giggles, let's assume PETA supported euthanasia.

Support it or not, they have actively engaged in it. How closely have you researched the central members of the PETA? They're quite frightening in their hypocrisy.

[scarletpeaches]

:ROFL:

I love how these pieces of shit always pretend to "find Jesus." They're such a freakin' cliche.

And PETA exists to promote itself--nothing more. It's the Paris Hilton of the charity world.

Jared Leto fucked PETA? Well, I'm in!

[Don]

It takes a real man to throw paint on some debutante's fur coat.

Now, when I hear PETA has been outside a biker bar, throwing paint on those dudes' leathers, maybe I'll cut them a little slack. :D

[Bird of Prey]

BoP, you made a valid point about checking sources. So I decided to research the organization Haskins linked to and noticed there was a conflict of interest (IMO). I then went one step further to read PETA's actual reporting and posted those numbers. And your response is "I'm aware." Really? Then why question the source? Why not just acknowledge the numbers and move on?

Humane Society euthanized about 25 animals a day on average according to a release in 2007. I know the figure's been way up since the recession. You do the math. According to the "sign," PETA killed ten thousand over five years. On average, that's what the Humane Society almost did in a year. Neverthelss, I condemn euthanasia and always have.

What you are referring - or what I thought you were referring -to was the numbers specific to Virginia, of which I'm aware, and to which PETA has I'm pretty sure corrected by this time. Look, I am a big believer in mandatory spay and neuter. I'm serious when I tell you I'd make it federal.

I'm going to tell you about a program here which makes a lot of sense to me. It's a feral catch and release program. Feral cats - over a thousand I think at this point - have been captured, spayed and/or neutered, given shots and released back into the "wild." Controversial, yes, but they're not killed, and as time goes by, the extraordinary feral cat population will dwindle.

Anyway, to the credit of the Humane Society and PETA, without them cruelty like Vick's could be rampant. And again, the animals euthanized are not "hung" or "tortured." There's a big difference, don't you think??

[Bird of Prey]

Support it or not, they have actively engaged in it. How closely have you researched the central members of the PETA? They're quite frightening in their hypocrisy.

I think it's an organization that has brought to the fore and made a national issue of animal cruelty. And I think it's necessary.

I think most organizations are hypocritical when it comes to the use of money. But PETA does something very well: mobilize and publicize cruelty. And - as my point was in the OP - if protests occur where Vick plays, I'm fine with it.

Look, no animal rights organization SUPPORTS euthanizing animals. I want to make that really clear. It's not a purpose; it's an outcome that yes, should be avoidable. But they are overwhelmed; there's no question about it.

I "support" no-kill shelters. I have good friends that do nothing but support and/or foster out animals until such time that they find a home, but a lot of these animals are very old, some are very frail. There were dogs there that were almost blind. I know a woman who supports dozens of cats. I know another that has a room full of cats with health problems. These people do their best to give these animals a decent life, but distemper and leukemia in cats are very hard to overcome, so when an animal comes in to a huge outfit like PETA afflicted, what do you think they're going to do?? I'm with the private people, but again, believe that PETA is a worthwhile organization in terms of publicizing cruelty. Fur coats have been on the outs thanks in large part, to PETA, and they should be on the outs. There's no reason for it.

[escritora]

Euthanized = killed. Let's not get caught up in euphemisms.

Go pick on another post. By your comment you're not following or reading this thread carefully enough.

What you are referring - or what I thought you were referring -to was the numbers specific to Virginia, of which I'm aware, and to which PETA has I'm pretty sure corrected by this time.

Can you provide a link where PETA has corrected the situation? I didn't find numbers for 2008 on the Virginia gov website so that could be the case.

Anyway, to the credit of the Humane Society and PETA, without them cruelty like Vick's could be rampant. And again, the animals euthanized are not "hung" or "tortured." There's a big difference, don't you think??

Of course. I never said nor do I think otherwise.

[robeiae]

I'll say this for Vick. Once he was caught and arrested, he became contrite, apologetic, etc., bla bla bla. In July 2007 he spoke eloquently for a half hour about disappointing fans and kids, apologized to the Falcons owners for lying to them, and discussed his newfound relationship with Jesus Christ. Whether he's sincere or had a "jailhouse conversion" at the advice of attorneys and all to save what he could of his pro football career is impossible to tell, but I'll give him credit for consistently putting on the appearance of "turning around."Agreed. He offered no excuses and accepted responsibility. My personal opinion is that Vick was honestly contrite.

That said, I'd have no problem with the NFL banning him for life. It's their call. But if they let him back in and a team ops to sign him, that's fine, too. Of course the team--Philadelphia, in this case--will have to take the PR heat. And that's also fair.

[Bird of Prey]

Go pick on another post. By your comment you're not following or reading this thread carefully enough.



Can you provide a link where PETA has corrected the situation? I didn't find numbers for 2008 on the Virginia gov website so that could be the case.



Of course. I never said nor do I think otherwise.


I'm going to post a chart from William's web site. Please take a good hard look at the semantics:
http://www.petakillsanimals.com/

Not counting the pets PETA spayed and neutered, the group put to death over 90 percent of the animals it took in during the last five years. And its angel-of-death pattern shows no sign of changing.
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=450><TBODY><TR><TD align=right>Year</TD><TD align=right>Received†</TD><TD align=right>Adopted</TD><TD align=right>Killed</TD><TD align=right>Transferred</TD><TD align=right>% Killed</TD><TD align=right>% Adopted</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right>2008</TD><TD align=right>2,216</TD><TD align=right>7</TD><TD align=right>2,124</TD><TD align=right>34</TD><TD align=right>95.8</TD><TD align=right>0.32</TD></TR><TR bgColor=#efefef><TD align=right>2007</TD><TD align=right>1,997</TD><TD align=right>17</TD><TD align=right>1,815</TD><TD align=right>35</TD><TD align=right>90.9</TD><TD align=right>0.85</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right>2006</TD><TD align=right>3,061</TD><TD align=right>12</TD><TD align=right>2,981</TD><TD align=right>46</TD><TD align=right>97.4</TD><TD align=right>0.39</TD></TR><TR bgColor=#efefef><TD align=right>2005</TD><TD align=right>2,165</TD><TD align=right>146</TD><TD align=right>1,946</TD><TD align=right>69</TD><TD align=right>89.9</TD><TD align=right>6.74</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right>2004</TD><TD align=right>2,655</TD><TD align=right>361</TD><TD align=right>2,278</TD><TD align=right>1</TD><TD align=right>85.8</TD><TD align=right>13.60</TD></TR><TR bgColor=#efefef><TD align=right>2003</TD><TD align=right>2,224</TD><TD align=right>312</TD><TD align=right>1,911</TD><TD align=right>1</TD><TD align=right>85.9</TD><TD align=right>14.03</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right>2002</TD><TD align=right>2,680</TD><TD align=right>382</TD><TD align=right>2,298</TD><TD align=right>2</TD><TD align=right>85.7</TD><TD align=right>14.25</TD></TR><TR bgColor=#efefef><TD align=right>2001</TD><TD align=right>2,685</TD><TD align=right>703</TD><TD align=right>1,944</TD><TD align=right>14</TD><TD align=right>72.4</TD><TD align=right>26.18</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right>2000</TD><TD align=right>2,681</TD><TD align=right>624</TD><TD align=right>2,029</TD><TD align=right>28</TD><TD align=right>75.7</TD><TD align=right>23.27</TD></TR><TR bgColor=#efefef><TD align=right>1999</TD><TD align=right>1,805</TD><TD align=right>386</TD><TD align=right>1,328</TD><TD align=right>91</TD><TD align=right>73.6</TD><TD align=right>21.39</TD></TR><TR bgColor=#efefef><TD align=right>*1998</TD><TD align=right>943</TD><TD align=right>133</TD><TD align=right>685</TD><TD align=right>125</TD><TD align=right>72.6</TD><TD align=right>14.10</TD></TR><TR bgColor=#cccccc><TD align=right>Total</TD><TD align=right>25,112</TD><TD align=right>3,083</TD><TD align=right>21,339</TD><TD align=right>446</TD><TD align=right>85.0</TD><TD align=right>12.28</TD></TR><TR><TD colSpan=7>
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

[Rolling Thunder]

Like most organizations, PETA probably started off on the best of intentions. But, like congress, or our political system, money and the irrational ideals of a few swept the original intentions aside.

Vick did his time. He's entitled to a second chance --something our society seems willing to forget more often than not.

[escritora]

BoP, I think there is a disconnect btwn our communication. Let's backtrack a bit. You indicated upthread that you're pretty sure PETA corrected the situation in Virginia. I asked for a link. Then you post numbers that show PETA put to death over 2,000 animals in 2008. Numbers that don't support your initial assertion.

I assumed when you wrote "What you are referring - or what I thought you were referring -to was the numbers specific to Virginia, of which I'm aware, and to which PETA has I'm pretty sure corrected by this time," you meant the number of killings. Is that so? Or by 'corrected' were you referring to something else?

[Bird of Prey]

BoP, I think there is a disconnect btwn our communication. Let's backtrack a bit. You indicated upthread that you're pretty sure PETA corrected the situation in Virginia. I asked for a link. Then you post numbers that show PETA put to death over 2,000 animals in 2008. Numbers that don't support your initial assertion.

I assumed when you wrote "What you are referring - or what I thought you were referring -to was the numbers specific to Virginia, of which I'm aware, and to which PETA has I'm pretty sure corrected by this time," you meant the number of killings. Is that so? Or by 'corrected' were you referring to something else?

Escritoria, let me explain the situation as I remember it. The situation in Virginia had a lot to do with feral cat populations. Now, for some reason, I can't seem to find a link specific to the Virginia situation. I do remember something about an altered policy. But I will keep looking, and I've got a call in to somebody who would know.

The reason why I posted what I did was that was the closest I could come to a 2008 figure, bolding the semantics involved. The euthanized count of animals were those not spayed or neutered. What that probably means is, a lot of those animals were not invested in right off the bat. Why would that be? It is likely they were unadoptable in the opinion of the staff, and that probably means the majority were infirmed and/or vicious or too old. None of these reasons are good enough for me, but I told you, these people are overwhelmed. In my state there's a list of no-kill shelters. I don't need to tell you they are inundated with animals and quickly going broke. . . .

[escritora]

That's for taking the time to explain, BoP. I understand your position now.

[Celia Cyanide]

The reason why I posted what I did was that was the closest I could come to a 2008 figure, bolding the semantics involved. The euthanized count of animals were those not spayed or neutered. What that probably means is, a lot of those animals were not invested in right off the bat. Why would that be? It is likely they were unadoptable in the opinion of the staff, and that probably means the majority were infirmed and/or vicious or too old. None of these reasons are good enough for me, but I told you, these people are overwhelmed. In my state there's a list of no-kill shelters. I don't need to tell you they are inundated with animals and quickly going broke. . . .

Yes, but since PETA is opening critical of other shelters who euthanize animals, it's highly hypocritical. These other shelters do try to find homes for the animals when they can.

[Bird of Prey]

Yes, but since PETA is opening critical of other shelters who euthanize animals, it's highly hypocritical. These other shelters do try to find homes for the animals when they can.

I would urge you to read this. If you're sensitive, try not to look at the horrible pictures. . . http://blog.peta.org/archives/2009/05/peta_and_euthan.php

PETA is critical of barbaric methods of euthanization, in which imo it is justified. According to this article, PETA euthanizes very few animals: .01 percent of those it takes in. This sounds about right to me. Anyway, for what it's worth. . . .

[dgiharris]

Agreed. He offered no excuses and accepted responsibility. My personal opinion is that Vick was honestly contrite.

That said, I'd have no problem with the NFL banning him for life. It's their call. But if they let him back in and a team ops to sign him, that's fine, too. Of course the team--Philadelphia, in this case--will have to take the PR heat. And that's also fair.

Has anyone seen him do the obligatory "I'm Sorry" speech?

Whether people believe him or not, hell whether he believes it or not, it would be worth doing along with donating some money to some charity that helps animals.

That would help curve some of the "I Hate Vick" love that is coming his way.

Personally, this will blow over after a few games. You can only boo for so long until you get horse.

Mel...

[AMCrenshaw]

Personally, this will blow over after a few games. You can only boo for so long until you get hoarse.

You aren't from Philly?


AMC

[JoeEkaitis]

Publishers will soon be lining up with 7-figure advance book offers followed by the obligatory tearful apology on Oprah.

[alleycat]

Publishers will soon be lining up with 7-figure advance book offers followed by the obligatory tearful apology on Oprah.
No doubt Oprah will describe it as a cathartic experience.

[Caramia]

*places herself in the line of fire*

At 14, I did a summer gig at the New Iberia Humane Society. In those months, I held over three hundred animals as they were given the injection. Then helped to load them into a pick up truck to be taken to the local dump. Only personally saved two dogs who came to live with my family. I want to think their numbers have gotten better, but I cannot say for certain. At that time, they claimed to be a no kill shelter.

At 19, I was chosen as a summer intern with the Fund for Animals in D.C. My direct boss at the time was Wayne Pacelle who is now the President of the HSUS. During that summer, I met tons of folks that worked at PETA, including Ingrid. I did a lot of evening volunteering at their building, stuffing envelopes, answering phones and assisting with a rather huge convention. I spent a bit of time at their nearby sanctuary too. I dated one of their investigators. One of those fellas that get a job at shady farms, slaughter houses and such and provide those videos PETA is well known for.

I could list more of my experience but I'm in my 30s now, it's a long list. I also worked 8 years as a veterinarian tech.

With PETA, one thing folks seem to overlook a lot is that they are not a rescue group. They are not a shelter. Ingrid doesn't even have a single pet last I knew. When they do get animals, it is typically a very extreme case and the animals are beyond repair of health or beyond help in aggression. The sanctuary they have near their headquarters is not big. It is also the housing (or was then rather) for their interns. Primarily farm animals is what I remember. A few dogs and cats but nothing more than a typical farm would have. Basically when they get a group of animals from an abuse case, it is strictly to get them out of their poor conditions and give them a dignified death. Yes, I do believe in such a concept.

Now with that said, I will say that I think HSUS has the right approach concerning Vick and as usual, I disagree with how PETA is handling it. What has been done is done. Regardless of his inner thinking or reasoning for participation with HSUS, it can have positive results and he can influence others. Perhaps he is using the group, but they can use him too.

:)

[Lucky Jim]

Go pick on another post. By your comment you're not following or reading this thread carefully enough.


Excuse me. If you're talking about the sociopath, no I didn't follow. I really thought this thread was about PETA. Sorry.

Still, if PETA is part of the discussion let me add this link.

http://www.nokillnow.com/PETAIngridNewkirkResign.htm

If this information is untrue, then I wonder why PETA hasn't had it taken down.

[veinglory]

The stories I read included plausible named people saying they gave up healthy animals to PeTA staff explicitly for rehoming, said staff killed the animals in their van and dumped them in a strip mall dumpster. If they aren't in the shelter business, they should *stay* out of that business as they clearly are not very good at it (http://www.petakillsanimals.com/).

[escritora]

Excuse me. If you're talking about the sociopath, no I didn't follow. I really thought this thread was about PETA. Sorry.

Yeah, you're not following my comments carefully. At. All.

Still, if PETA is part of the discussion let me add this link.

http://www.nokillnow.com/PETAIngridNewkirkResign.htm

If this information is untrue, then I wonder why PETA hasn't had it taken down.

Is this directed to me?

ETA:

My response didn’t clear matters, Lucky Jim. So I’m editing to make sure that we are on the same page. My “go pick on another post” comment was based on your post that read “Euthanized = killed. Let's not get caught up in euphemisms.”

I wasn’t getting caught up in euphemisms. I provided a link and remained true to the language of the source.

As such, when the source used the word “kill” I used the word “kill.” See for yourself (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3927982&postcount=8).

When the source used the word “euthanized” I used the word “euthanized.” Again, check it out (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3928068&postcount=11).

[C.bronco]

I like Eleventh Hour Rescue
http://members.petfinder.org/~NJ376/Home.htm

My friend got three pups from them: Dega, Bristol and Richmond. :)

[Bird of Prey]

Excuse me. If you're talking about the sociopath, no I didn't follow. I really thought this thread was about PETA. Sorry.

Still, if PETA is part of the discussion let me add this link.

http://www.nokillnow.com/PETAIngridNewkirkResign.htm

If this information is untrue, then I wonder why PETA hasn't had it taken down.

PETA is a very unpopular organization with many powers that be. It's an organization that costs businesses money. That site is propaganda.

[beezle]

The thing with PETA is, much of their leadership would like nothing more than to see the total eradication of pet species, domesticated livestock species, and other "aberrations" of nature. Basically anything humanity has had a hand in is to be cleansed from the face of the Earth

[Celia Cyanide]

I would urge you to read this. If you're sensitive, try not to look at the horrible pictures. . . http://blog.peta.org/archives/2009/05/peta_and_euthan.php

PETA is critical of barbaric methods of euthanization, in which imo it is justified. According to this article, PETA euthanizes very few animals: .01 percent of those it takes in. This sounds about right to me. Anyway, for what it's worth. . . .

So are you saying that PETA is fine with shelters that use humane methods of euthenasia?

[Bird of Prey]

So are you saying that PETA is fine with shelters that use humane methods of euthenasia?


I think PETA has a broad spectrum of people with different ideas on it, but I would guess that PETA's official position would be to euthanize if there's no alternative, and would not criticize those shelters that did so humanely.

[semilargeintestine]

Geezus Herschel Christoferson.

Did this need another thread? There's already a Mike Vick thread in Office Party and P&E. Whatever happened to "[a football player] is no more deserving of a thread here than a guy down the street."

I thoroughly apologise for the OP thread. This is getting a bit out of hand. I've moved on to the point where I hope he helps my team.

[Bird of Prey]

I thoroughly apologise for the OP thread. This is getting a bit out of hand. I've moved on to the point where I hope he helps my team.

What?? You didn't start the thread. I did.

[semilargeintestine]

I started one in OP too. :D

[Bird of Prey]

I started one in OP too. :D


Oh. When you said OP, I thought you meant Opening Post. Lol. . . .

[StephanieFox]

PETA founder Ingrid Newkirk avocates the killing of pit bulls. She said that one of them bit a friend of hers and now she thinks they should all be killed.

PETA. From Wikipedia


Policy on euthanasia

Before founding PETA, Newkirk was chief of animal-disease control and director of the animal shelter in the District of Columbia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/District_of_Columbia).<sup id="cite_ref-53" class="reference">[54] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_for_the_Ethical_Treatment_of_Animals#cite_n ote-53)</sup> She has said that she was shocked by the way the animals were treated in the shelter, and by the methods used to euthanize them.<sup id="cite_ref-Specter_54-0" class="reference">[55] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_for_the_Ethical_Treatment_of_Animals#cite_n ote-Specter-54)</sup>
PETA is against the no kill movement (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_kill_movement) and euthanizes most of the animals surrendered to them.<sup id="cite_ref-55" class="reference">[56] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_for_the_Ethical_Treatment_of_Animals#cite_n ote-55)</sup> It recommends euthanasia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_euthanasia) for certain breeds of animals, such as pit bull (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pit_bull) terriers, and in certain situations for unwanted animals in shelters: for example, for those living for long periods in cramped cages.<sup id="cite_ref-56" class="reference">[57] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_for_the_Ethical_Treatment_of_Animals#cite_n ote-56)</sup><sup id="cite_ref-57" class="reference">[58] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_for_the_Ethical_Treatment_of_Animals#cite_n ote-57)</sup><sup id="cite_ref-58" class="reference">[59] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_for_the_Ethical_Treatment_of_Animals#cite_n ote-58)</sup> It takes in feral cat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feral_cat) colonies with diseases such as feline AIDS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feline_immunodeficiency_virus) and leukemia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feline_leukemia_virus), stray dogs, litters of parvo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parvovirus)-infected puppies, and backyard dogs, and as such it would be unrealistic to operate a no-kill policy.<sup id="cite_ref-rescueonline1_59-0" class="reference">[60] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_for_the_Ethical_Treatment_of_Animals#cite_n ote-rescueonline1-59)</sup> Newkirk has said: "It is a totally rotten business, but sometimes the only kind option for some animals is to put them to sleep forever."<sup id="cite_ref-baraket_60-0" class="reference">[61] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_for_the_Ethical_Treatment_of_Animals#cite_n ote-baraket-60)</sup> PETA euthanized 1,946 companion animals in Virginia in 2005, out of 2,138 animals surrendered to them or picked up as strays.<sup id="cite_ref-61" class="reference">[62] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_for_the_Ethical_Treatment_of_Animals#cite_n ote-61)</sup>

[Bird of Prey]

PETA founder Ingrid Newkirk avocates the killing of pit bulls. She said that one of them bit a friend of hers and now she thinks they should all be killed.

PETA. From Wikipedia


Policy on euthanasia

Before founding PETA, Newkirk was chief of animal-disease control and director of the animal shelter in the District of Columbia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/District_of_Columbia).<SUP class=reference id=cite_ref-53>[54] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_for_the_Ethical_Treatment_of_Animals#cite_n ote-53)</SUP> She has said that she was shocked by the way the animals were treated in the shelter, and by the methods used to euthanize them.<SUP class=reference id=cite_ref-Specter_54-0>[55] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_for_the_Ethical_Treatment_of_Animals#cite_n ote-Specter-54)</SUP>
PETA is against the no kill movement (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_kill_movement) and euthanizes most of the animals surrendered to them.<SUP class=reference id=cite_ref-55>[56] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_for_the_Ethical_Treatment_of_Animals#cite_n ote-55)</SUP> It recommends euthanasia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_euthanasia) for certain breeds of animals, such as pit bull (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pit_bull) terriers, and in certain situations for unwanted animals in shelters: for example, for those living for long periods in cramped cages.<SUP class=reference id=cite_ref-56>[57] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_for_the_Ethical_Treatment_of_Animals#cite_n ote-56)</SUP><SUP class=reference id=cite_ref-57>[58] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_for_the_Ethical_Treatment_of_Animals#cite_n ote-57)</SUP><SUP class=reference id=cite_ref-58>[59] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_for_the_Ethical_Treatment_of_Animals#cite_n ote-58)</SUP> It takes in feral cat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feral_cat) colonies with diseases such as feline AIDS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feline_immunodeficiency_virus) and leukemia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feline_leukemia_virus), stray dogs, litters of parvo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parvovirus)-infected puppies, and backyard dogs, and as such it would be unrealistic to operate a no-kill policy.<SUP class=reference id=cite_ref-rescueonline1_59-0>[60] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_for_the_Ethical_Treatment_of_Animals#cite_n ote-rescueonline1-59)</SUP> Newkirk has said: "It is a totally rotten business, but sometimes the only kind option for some animals is to put them to sleep forever."<SUP class=reference id=cite_ref-baraket_60-0>[61] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_for_the_Ethical_Treatment_of_Animals#cite_n ote-baraket-60)</SUP> PETA euthanized 1,946 companion animals in Virginia in 2005, out of 2,138 animals surrendered to them or picked up as strays.<SUP class=reference id=cite_ref-61>[62] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_for_the_Ethical_Treatment_of_Animals#cite_n ote-61)</SUP>

It's WIKI which is a lot of personal opinion. We've already been through all this anyway. You forgot the small print, which of course looms large in the truth of these statements: Of the animals NOT SPAYED OR NEUTERED. . . .

[cethklein]

Are we talking about the same PETA that sends people to circuses and shoves pictures of mutilated animals in the faces of children? Or the same PETA that throws buckets of ink on celebrities who ear fur (likely causing said celebrities to simply buy a new coat, thus causing yet more animals to get killed)?

Yeah, sorry, but I have a bit of trouble taking PETA seriously.

[nighttimer]

PETA is a very unpopular organization with many powers that be. It's an organization that costs businesses money. That site is propaganda.

PETA is a very unpopular organization with many people as well because of their elitist, look-down-their nose at other animal welfare organizations and their confrontational tactics.

And they're happy to exploit women (http://www.feministing.com/archives/010279.html) when it serves their sexist purpose.

Perhaps you can tell me Bird of Prey how PETA proposes to reach out to Blacks, Whites and Hispanics in both urban and rural communities across the country to challenge the cultural acceptance of dogfighting?

Demonizing Vick isn't going to help their cause or that of the abused dogs.

[Bird of Prey]

PETA is a very unpopular organization with many people as well because of their elitist, look-down-their nose at other animal welfare organizations and their confrontational tactics.

Perhaps you can tell me Bird of Prey how PETA proposes to reach out to Blacks, Whites and Hispanics in both urban and rural communities across the country to challenge the cultural acceptance of dogfighting?



Am I running for office?? I didn't know that. But I'll give it a shot anyway and tell you that there isn't a cultural acceptance of dogfighting in terms of the majority of Americans. That's like saying there's a cultural acceptance of heroin use. Dogfighting is illegal in almost all states and it should carry a very hefty sentence, and demonizing Vick helps A LOT, because with the demonizing goes a fine and a prison term, and the fact is the guy's a coward and a cruel scumbag and everybody should know it. . . .

[Robert Toy]

damn you gotta admit he sure can play ball.

[cethklein]

PETA is a very unpopular organization with many people as well because of their elitist, look-down-their nose at other animal welfare organizations and their confrontational tactics.

And they're happy to exploit women (http://www.feministing.com/archives/010279.html) when it serves their sexist purpose.

Perhaps you can tell me Bird of Prey how PETA proposes to reach out to Blacks, Whites and Hispanics in both urban and rural communities across the country to challenge the cultural acceptance of dogfighting?

Demonizing Vick isn't going to help their cause or that of the abused dogs.

I somehow doubt that they care if it helps their cause. I also have often wondered if their celebrity members are only in it for the attention.

But yeah, you're spot-on with the analysis of them being elitists. That's always been their biggest problem.

[nighttimer]

Am I running for office?? I didn't know that. But I'll give it a shot anyway and tell you that there isn't a cultural acceptance of dogfighting in terms of the majority of Americans. That's like saying there's a cultural acceptance of heroin use. Dogfighting is illegal in almost all states and it should carry a very hefty sentence, and demonizing Vick helps A LOT, because with the demonizing goes a fine and a prison term, and the fact is the guy's a coward and a cruel scumbag and everybody should know it. . . .

Your name-calling of Vick may be justified. Maybe he is a coward and a cruel scumbag, but that doesn't mean he doesn't deserve the chance to turn his life around.

The fact that there isn't a cutural acceptance of dogfighting among the majority of Americans does nothing to address the problem in the minoirty that see nothing wrong with it.

In his 60 Minutes interview tonight, Vick said he was introduced to dogfighting when he was eight years old. You think some naked supermodel saying wearing fur is bad or meat is murder makes a damn bit of differecen to those kids? The fact that dogfighting is illegal doesn't mean jackshit. The threat of a "very hefty sentence" is laughable. How many people in our overcrowded prison system are there for killing dogs?

Ever see some young kid walking down the street with one hand holding a cell phone to his ear and the other a pit bull straining at the end of a leash, BirdofPrey? I do every day and I'm pretty sure all of them don't have the dogs simply as pets.

Maybe demonizing Michael Vick helps you a lot. It doesn't do squat in addressing the root problem or providing a means to "unlearn" the behavior. If you and PETA are as concerned about protecting animals as you proclaim perhaps you should use that finely-tuned sense of outrage for something more constructive that actually helps animals.

Dogging out Vick for the rest of his life does not.

[Bird of Prey]

Your name-calling of Vick may be justified. Maybe he is a coward and a cruel scumbag, but that doesn't mean he doesn't deserve the chance to turn his life around.

The fact that there isn't a cutural acceptance of dogfighting among the majority of Americans does nothing to address the problem in the minoirty that see nothing wrong with it.

In his 60 Minutes interview tonight, Vick said he was introduced to dogfighting when he was eight years old. You think some naked supermodel saying wearing fur is bad or meat is murder makes a damn bit of differecen to those kids? The fact that dogfighting is illegal doesn't mean jackshit. The threat of a "very hefty sentence" is laughable. How many people in our overcrowded prison system are there for killing dogs?

Ever see some young kid walking down the street with one hand holding a cell phone to his ear and the other a pit bull straining at the end of a leash, BirdofPrey? I do every day and I'm pretty sure all of them don't have the dogs simply as pets.

Maybe demonizing Michael Vick helps you a lot. It doesn't do squat in addressing the root problem or providing a means to "unlearn" the behavior. If you and PETA are as concerned about protecting animals as you proclaim perhaps you should use that finely-tuned sense of outratge for something more constructive that actually helps animals.

Dogging out Vick for the rest of his life does not.

I don't think that Vick is going to last. The public outrage is substantial, and I really don't think that an awful lot of dog lovers are going to be able to forget what he did regardless of how sporty he looks on the field. It will certainly affect the team in terms of public opinion, and that will probably translate to money. The man is a disgrace. It's that simple.

Edit: You know, I want to make sure you understand something. This man tortured these dogs to death for not bloodying up enough for his pleasure. This man is certainly a sociopath and probably a psychopath. And btw, there are city ordinances against owning pitbulls in for example, Denver, and I suspect it will catch on.

[semilargeintestine]

Dogging out Vick for the rest of his life does not.

HA!

I agree though.

[Lucky Jim]

[quote=escritora;3931687]

Is this directed to me?
[quote]

Not really, just at the post. Lets leave it at I dislike PETA and Newkirk. And I don't like the word euthanasia. No kill shelters are not called no euthanasia shelters.

If I offended you, I appologise. Arguments are futile anyway unless there is some hope of reaching a consensus.

[nighttimer]

I don't think that Vick is going to last. The public outrage is substantial, and I really don't think that an awful lot of dog lovers are going to be able to forget what he did regardless of how sporty he looks on the field. It will certainly affect the team in terms of public opinion, and that will probably translate to money. The man is a disgrace. It's that simple.

There's nothing simple about it.

Vick's a disgrace? We agree. He lied to his family, friends, teammates, the owner of the Atlanta Falcons who made him the highest paid player in the league and to the face of Commissioner Roger Goodell.

Vick went to jail. He lost millions in salary and endorsements. He made himself a pariah. Nobody else did. He has no one to blame but himself.

But I really don't give a shit about public outrage. If he can still throw a football, run with the football and make a positive contribution to the Eagles, those whom are willing to forgive, if not necessarily forget, will give him the opportunity to do so.

You and people who think like you want to continue to punish Vick long after he's served his time and paid a heavy price for his crimes. Fine. Who cares if you never let him forget? Buy a ticket to a game and throw Milk Bones and flea collars at him. Knock yourself out.

But if Wayne Pacelle, president of the Humane Society of the United States is willing to give Vick a chance to prove he's sorry and wants to be part of the solution instead of part of the problem, that carries far more weight than the die-hards who will not let this go.

"If we just punish Mike indefinitely and don't pivot to this problem in the communities, where kids are victimizing these dogs and then going down a dead-end street themselves, because there are no heroic dogfighters, we will not be doing our job. And I felt we needed to get involved and we needed to do some creative things to reach these kids. So that's why we have our community based programs. And I am really hopeful that Mike sticks with this and reaches these kids because he can turn some of them around. I really do believe that," Pacelle explained.

60 Minutes (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/08/10/60minutes/main5231257_page3.shtml?tag=contentMain;contentBod y)

The protestors against Vick will turn out in every city the Eagles land, but that's their right. Let them. All Vick can do is try to do his part to educate those whom PETA can't even begin to reach. Whether he can ever redeems himself to their or your satisfaction is immaterial.

If Michael Vick is still the selfish, arrogant and entitled punk he was before his world came crashing down around him and he's running a game on everyone, it will come out eventually. It's all eyes on him and the burden of proof that he's truly turned his life around and wants to make good is up to Vick and Vick alone.

I think you're wrong. If it turns out you're right, I'll be the first to admit he bullshit everyone that gave him a second chance.


Edit: You know, I want to make sure you understand something. This man tortured these dogs to death for not bloodying up enough for his pleasure. This man is certainly a sociopath and probably a psychopath. And btw, there are city ordinances against owning pitbulls in for example, Denver, and I suspect it will catch on.

So what would you like to do with Michael Vick, Bird of Prey? Send him back to jail? Lock him up for life?

Or should Vick be put to death same as the dogs he killed?

I understand perfectly well the cruelty and depravity of Vick's actions. As for whether or not he's a sociopath or psychopath, I will leave the provocative rhetoric and amateur analysis to you.

What I don't understand is how many payback you want.

I'd really like to know how much further and how much longer Vick has to be punished before you are satisfied he's suffered enough.

[escritora]

Arguments are futile anyway unless there is some hope of reaching a consensus.

I'm not a fan of PETA either. You were just too busy disagreeing on the use of the word euthanasia to notice.

Thank you for your apology. Accepted. (smile)

[Death Wizard]

You know, I want to make sure you understand something. This man tortured these dogs to death for not bloodying up enough for his pleasure. This man is certainly a sociopath and probably a psychopath.

I agree.

[Nightfly]

I gave my 2 cents on this already but I'm really interested in this topic so I've been checking in. BirdofPrey, I have to say I'm surprised to see that you haven't softened at all. I appreciate your passion on this and it sounds like animals and animal shelters are closer to you than most but I'm interested to see if you answer Nighttimers question. What would you like to do with Vick? Seriously. Sincerely. And do you believe in redemption? I'm not trying to antagonize you, I'd realy like to know.
I want to ask you something else. Have you ever seen some of these dogs? As I've said before I love dogs but I've come across some that were damn mean and dangerous. Now you might say that if they were brought up better they wouldn't be that way. Well, that works for humans as well. Would dogs with poor upbringing get more sympathy that humans? Again, I don't want this to blow over - I think Vick deserves scrutiny, but he also deserves a second chance. And I think it's in the best interest of society as a lesson to others. I hope you answer the question.

[dgiharris]

Originally Posted by Bird of Prey
You know, I want to make sure you understand something. This man tortured these dogs to death for not bloodying up enough for his pleasure. This man is certainly a sociopath and probably a psychopath.

Sorry, the term sociopath is not one to be given lightly. I can make the argument that hunters are sociopaths.

When I was a child, we used to catch various insects and put them in a pit and watch them fight.

I had a tarantula that went undefeated for almost a month, dethroning the reigning champ that was a scorpion. So does this mean that me and my friends are sociopaths because we used to make bugs fight?

IMHO, they were just insects, big deal. We step on bugs without even a second thought.

Now, the next 'level' of this logic is animals. We eat animals. We hunt and kill animals for 'sport'. So I just don't have the same moral outrage with dogfighting that many in this thread have. And yes, I'm a dog lover.

Sorry, if it is legal to go out and shot and kill animals with guns, crossbow, etc. I don't see how we as a society feel we have the moral platform to declare dogfighting as super duper evil.

Do I feel dogfighting is wrong. Yes, yes I do. Do I feel it is immoral. Yes. But how immoral? I would classify it as somewhat immoral. Definitely not 'sociopath' immoral. Bad, awful, but not immoral enough to ruin a human being's life. He's paid his fine, done his time, and lost millions.

Basically, I think we need to reign in our outrage a bit. I know there is nothing better than getting together in a mob, taking out the pitchforks, torches and setting fire to someone who 'deserves' it.

*sigh*

Just because someone does dogfighting doesn't mean they are a sociopath was my longwinded point.

Mel...

[Jcomp]

We eat animals.

Prior to which we slaughter the shit out of them.

That said, at least there's an end purpose. Torture and execution for the thrill of it is very different.

Dog fighting is a bizarre thing, and I think Vick's crimes and case have brought to light that there's this culture of people worldwide who see nothing wrong with harm done to animals because, end of the day, they're just animals. If we're going to call Vick a sociopath or psychopath then we're dealing with a society so full of sociopaths and psychopaths that you'd wonder where all the shock and outrage is coming from. We should be fairly desensitized, no?

Hell, think of how awful fishing is when you come right down to it, and that's treated as a happy childhood past time.

It's a complicated issue, but end of the day, I think there's a larger reaction to Vick because he's a celebrity / athlete and lots of folks have an "us vs. them" attitude towards athletes. I completely understand people protesting and not supporting the Eagles behind this. I don't watch Roman Polanski movies (then again he's a fugitive child rapist so it's very different, but still...). We all have to draw a line somewhere. To me it's just interesting to watch people conflate the facts of the case with the mere allegations and march forward with analysis without considering all the factors.

[Susan Gable]

Sorry, the term sociopath is not one to be given lightly. I can make the argument that hunters are sociopaths.

No, not really. A sociopath has no conscience. They can do a variety of things, from lie to your face just for kicks, to kill someone and feel absolutely no remorse about it.

They feel no remorse about ANYTHING they do.

(I just finished reading The Sociopath Next Door. <G> Interesting reading.)

So, if Vicks killed these dogs and didn't feel bad about it doesn't mean he's a sociopath. If he lies to his mother, does he feel bad about that?

(I'm not saying he's NOT a sociopath. He could be. I don't know.)

But hunters aren't sociopaths because they hunt. It doesn't work that way.

Susan G.

[escritora]

Part of BoP's argument is that Vick tortured and killed some of these dogs. And I read the other day that he had female dogs take a 'rape stand' (I believe that is what it's called) when she didn't want to have sex. The issue here is not just about dog fighting.

IMO, BoP isn't off the mark when she brings up the sociopath and psychopath issue. Her position of certainty, however, is questionable since we don't know for sure.

[Bird of Prey]

I gave my 2 cents on this already but I'm really interested in this topic so I've been checking in. BirdofPrey, I have to say I'm surprised to see that you haven't softened at all. I appreciate your passion on this and it sounds like animals and animal shelters are closer to you than most but I'm interested to see if you answer Nighttimers question. What would you like to do with Vick? Seriously. Sincerely. And do you believe in redemption? I'm not trying to antagonize you, I'd realy like to know.
I want to ask you something else. Have you ever seen some of these dogs? As I've said before I love dogs but I've come across some that were damn mean and dangerous. Now you might say that if they were brought up better they wouldn't be that way. Well, that works for humans as well. Would dogs with poor upbringing get more sympathy that humans? Again, I don't want this to blow over - I think Vick deserves scrutiny, but he also deserves a second chance. And I think it's in the best interest of society as a lesson to others. I hope you answer the question.

Well, I'll answer both you and Nighttimer, as you seem convinced that this guy has paid his dues. Well, it's a little more than just paying his dues.

I suspect that Vick will commit another crime. possibly in the not too distant future, something similar to the dog fighting episode. I think he's a very sick guy, and I think when we look at crimes, we have to look at intent. This wasn't done out of jealousy i.e. a crime of passion. This wasn't done for money. It wasn't an armed robbery. It wasn't done for any other reason than to witness and enjoy suffering. That should have set off a very loud alarm bell to any competent judge.

Vick should be monitored closely and kept out of the limelight. I don't think he's capable of living a normal life. And he's going to hurt somebody or some innocent creatures again. If it were me, he'd be in an institution, monitored and treated until a group of professionals who have observed him for a very long time can make an assessment, but even then, it's hard to change the stripes on these tigers.

Years ago, a close friend had a nephew that was institutionalized for threatening a woman. The woman was terrified of him. She was supposed to be notified if he was ever released. In the institution, he functioned like a sweetie for years, so they gave him a library pass. After four years, do you know what he did?? He went straight to her apartment, waited for her and brutally killed her. I think Vick's of the same seed. If it were me, we wouldn't see him out and about for at least eight or so years, and even then, there's no guarantee. But right now, he's a time bomb, and the guy really has no conscience. . . .

[Don]

Sociopath: Unconcerned about the adverse consequences for others of one's actions.

Kind of a weak definition, considering I see veins in their teeth and a dagger in their hand, but yeah, Vick's a sociopath and should be kept out of polite society until shown otherwise, let alone held up as an example of a manly man. So to that point, I'm with BoP.

Then again, I think most politicians are sociopaths, as my signature reflects. So what do I know? :D

Plus, all this talk of Youth in Asia has brough Emily Litella (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emily_Litella) to mind again, and I just had to get that off my chest.

[Bird of Prey]

Sorry, the term sociopath is not one to be given lightly. I can make the argument that hunters are sociopaths.

When I was a child, we used to catch various insects and put them in a pit and watch them fight.

I had a tarantula that went undefeated for almost a month, dethroning the reigning champ that was a scorpion. So does this mean that me and my friends are sociopaths because we used to make bugs fight?

IMHO, they were just insects, big deal. We step on bugs without even a second thought.

Now, the next 'level' of this logic is animals. We eat animals. We hunt and kill animals for 'sport'. So I just don't have the same moral outrage with dogfighting that many in this thread have. And yes, I'm a dog lover.

Sorry, if it is legal to go out and shot and kill animals with guns, crossbow, etc. I don't see how we as a society feel we have the moral platform to declare dogfighting as super duper evil.

Do I feel dogfighting is wrong. Yes, yes I do. Do I feel it is immoral. Yes. But how immoral? I would classify it as somewhat immoral. Definitely not 'sociopath' immoral. Bad, awful, but not immoral enough to ruin a human being's life. He's paid his fine, done his time, and lost millions.

Basically, I think we need to reign in our outrage a bit. I know there is nothing better than getting together in a mob, taking out the pitchforks, torches and setting fire to someone who 'deserves' it.

*sigh*

Just because someone does dogfighting doesn't mean they are a sociopath was my longwinded point.

Mel...

We're not talking about "just dogfighting," but frankly that should suffice. I find it more than a little alarming that you want to "rein in our outrage" over a spectacle that heinous and that cruel. However, I think you should examine what Vick did with these dogs outside the "tear each other apart" arena. I gotta tell ya, people have every right to be outraged and then some. They should be darn worried that he's out and about. . . .

When you were a kid, you were just that: a kid. Kids do cruel things, but presumably, they grow up and develop empathy and adhere to a civilized conduct of behavior. When they don't, we have a problem. . . .

[Celia Cyanide]

I think PETA has a broad spectrum of people with different ideas on it, but I would guess that PETA's official position would be to euthanize if there's no alternative, and would not criticize those shelters that did so humanely.

Do they have this official position posted anywhere? Because that was not what I had heard.

[Caramia]

Here's Wayne's blog concerning the 60 minutes show.

http://hsus.typepad.com/wayne/2009/08/vick-60-minutes.html

[Diana Hignutt]

I just wanted to point out that my Vick thread was first, and remains more footballish.

However, two points:

1) Vick has hundreds of hours of community service to perform, so let's not pretend like he has paid his debt to society until that's completed. IMHO, the NFL should not have let him back in until he had finished his punishment, which he has not.

2) Vick plea-bargained way down when it looked like everybody was going to turn the nickel on him. Accusations include the torture and killings of hundreds of dogs by drowning, hanging, beating, electrocution, etc. all personally committed by Vick. So, yes, he's a sociopath and should have received mental health treatment, except the plea-bargain left all of that out of court.

3) I'm not a PETA fan.

[benbradley]

For the first time since he was released from prison, Michael Vick is opening up about his time behind bars as well as his involvement in dog fighting. Vick sat down with James Brown of CBS Sports for a piece on “60 Minutes” that aired last night.
http://amfix.blogs.cnn.com/2009/08/17/michael-vick-opens-up-about-jail-dog-fighting/

[nighttimer]

Nobody is giving Michael Vick a free pass back into society and nobody's knocking down his door to give him millions of dollars in new commercial endorsements. Vick's days as a pitchman are over.

Some people care more about the life of a dog than they do about the life of a man. It's lousy what happened to those dogs Vick killed but I don't believe they have a higher value than a human being.

Vick went to jail, lost his freedom, lost years of his professional career, lost millions and lost the respect of many in society. He can get some of the money and respect back but he has to earn both. The Eagles wisely signed Vick to a one-year contract with the option for a section. He fucks up again and they can let him go with minimal cost to the organization.

He, on the other hand, will be on a downward spiral he will never be able to pull out of.

For the hardcore cynic, Michael Vick will always be guilty, always unforgiven and permanently hated. No matter what Vick does to repent for his crimes it will never be enough for those cynics. Their minds are made up and they will never accept any evidence to the contrary.

All these projections and speculations that Vick will kill again and next time move on to bigger game is just that: speculation based upon amateur psychologists who don't know shit.

Those cynics are incapable of forgiveness and it's a waste trying to get any from them.

They don't know Vick will offend again any more than anyone knows if he ever will again. It's all a guessing game. The only one who can say with any certainty if Michael Vick can turn his life around is Michael Vick.

I think he deserves that one shot at a second chance. I think almost everybody does. A skeptic has every reason to doubt Vick can pull it off without ever offending again.

I agree that the odds are not in his favor, but I still would give him the shot because my belief in hope and redemption is greater than cynicism and nursing grudges.

[Bird of Prey]

Do they have this official position posted anywhere? Because that was not what I had heard.


I haven't seen an official position, but I suspect if you e-mailed its headquarters, you would be provided with an official position.

[Bird of Prey]

Nobody is giving Michael Vick a free pass back into society and nobody's knocking down his door to give him millions of dollars in new commercial endorsements. Vick's days as a pitchman are over.

Some people care more about the life of a dog than they do about the life of a man. It's lousy what happened to those dogs Vick killed but I don't believe they have a higher value than a human being.

Do you have any idea what Vick did to those dogs? Do you really have any idea at all? And what the hell is the Humane Society going to teach him? That dogs feel pain, too? You think he doesn't know that? Why the hell do you think he tortured them to death: because he enjoyed seeing them in agony. Vick is a monster and he shouldn't walking around in society.


For the hardcore cynic, Michael Vick will always be guilty, always unforgiven and permanently hated. No matter what Vick does to repent for his crimes it will never be enough for those cynics. Their minds are made up and they will never accept any evidence to the contrary.



It's not a question of "cynicism" as much as it is practicality and good old fashion revulsion. How could anybody think that somebody engaged in that kind of behavior is an average criminal??


All these projections and speculations that Vick will kill again and next time move on to bigger game is just that: speculation based upon amateur psychologists who don't know shit. . . .
They don't know Vick will offend again any more than anyone knows if he ever will again. It's all a guessing game. The only one who can say with any certainty if Michael Vick can turn his life around is Michael Vick.
I think he deserves that one shot at a second chance. I think almost everybody does. A skeptic has every reason to doubt Vick can pull it off without ever offending again.

I agree that the odds are not in his favor, but I still would give him the shot because my belief in hope and redemption is greater than cynicism and nursing grudges.

Oh he'll get a second shot all right. He's on the loose. I feel terribly for all the animals he's tortured; it makes me nauseous just thinking about. And I'm sorry you don't think all those dogs add up to the importance of a monster like Vick, but I don't agree. Hopefully, his "second shot" will be "attempted" but land him somewhere secure where he can't hurt anybody again. . . .

[nighttimer]

Do you have any idea what Vick did to those dogs? Do you really have any idea at all? And what the hell is the Humane Society going to teach him? That dogs feel pain, too? You think he doesn't know that? Why the hell do you think he tortured them to death: because he enjoyed seeing them in agony. Vick is a monster and he shouldn't walking around in society.

I'm getting a bit tired of you asking me questions I've already answered Bird of Prey. I'll tell you one more time and this time read it slow so you understand: I know exactly what Vick did to those dogs.

He is not a monster. He's a man who made a mistake, did his time for it and suffered the consequences.

Now what part of that don't you get?

It's not a question of "cynicism" as much as it is practicality and good old fashion revulsion. How could anybody think that somebody engaged in that kind of behavior is an average criminal??I really don't care about your revulsion. Write a letter to your congressman. He did his time for the crime. He's out. He's back in football.

Deal with it.

Oh he'll get a second shot all right. He's on the loose. I feel terribly for all the animals he's tortured; it makes me nauseous just thinking about. And I'm sorry you don't think all those dogs add up to the importance of a monster like Vick, but I don't agree. Hopefully, his "second shot" will be "attempted" but land him somewhere secure where he can't hurt anybody again. . . .I can see you feel terribly about the animals Vick tortured. So did I, but I got over it.

There a few cold hard truths you seem to be having some difficulty accepting. One is most guys who go into jail eventually come out. So it goes for Michael Vick.

The second is the life of a dog is not worth more than the life of a man.

Good luck trying to change either of these truths to your liking. :rolleyes:

[Bird of Prey]

The second is the life of a dog is not worth more than the life of a man.



That's an opinion, not a truth, nighttimer. And torturing dogs to death is not a "mistake."

[Diana Hignutt]

He is not a monster. He's a man who made a mistake, did his time for it and suffered the consequences.



First, what he did to hundreds of dogs was monstrous, so, yes, he was a monster. Maybe he's not a monster now. I don't know.

Second, nope, he hasn't come close to finishing his hundreds of hours of community service which was part of his sentence, so he hasn't finished doing his time.

[nighttimer]

The second is the life of a dog is not worth more than the life of a man.


That's an opinion, not a truth, nighttimer. And torturing dogs to death is not a "mistake."

First, that's your opinion, Bird of Prey. It is a truth because if it wasn't Michael Vick would have gotten the death penalty for killing the dogs.

Second, as lovable as any dog may be they still don't outrank human beings on the evolutionary food chain. Including Michael Vick.

He did the crime and he did the time. He's out and back in the NFL. That's all, folks.

[veinglory]

Doing your time doesn't reset the clock and mean people have to act like you never did anything wrong. Animals may not be valued as much as people, but they aren't nothing, they are sentient beings and torturing them for fun isn't an aw, shucks crime. It is sick in a way that clings about the man like a miasma no matter how he might try to live it down. It is a felony crime in most states because most people in this country take animal abuse damned seriously.

[Don]

Well, I have to say, if my dog and Michael Vick were drowning, and I only had time to save one, I'd be nice enough to stop by and let my dog water his tombstone after the funeral.

[Bird of Prey]

First, that's your opinion, Bird of Prey. It is a truth because if it wasn't Michael Vick would have gotten the death penalty for killing the dogs.

Second, as lovable as any dog may be they still don't outrank human beings on the evolutionary food chain. Including Michael Vick.

He did the crime and he did the time. He's out and back in the NFL. That's all, folks.


Outrank on the food chain, eh? That's your definition of superior or - let's see - outrank? That's actually laughable. So Michael Vick outranks dogs on the evolutionary food chain so um. . .

You know I'm so concerned about where you're going with this, and so sure that I don't want to know, that I think we should drop it right here. In fact, I know for certain we have nothing more to say.

[TerzaRima]

Vick revolts the hell out of me. That said, read up on where your local pet shop sources its puppies. You'll need a very strong stomach and the details are heartbreaking. The puppy millers are torturing dogs--not for fun, but for a handsome profit--and to satisfy the public appetite for labradoodles, puggles, shi-poos, cavachons, maltipoos, and other "designer" mutts. The penalties in place are a joke.

No, two wrongs don't make a right, but it's pretty inconsistent to make an example out of Vicks when animal abuse in this country is often penalized so lightly, if not outright rewarded.

[nighttimer]

Doing your time doesn't reset the clock and mean people have to act like you never did anything wrong. Animals may not be valued as much as people, but they aren't nothing, they are sentient beings and torturing them for fun isn't an aw, shucks crime. It is sick in a way that clings about the man like a miasma no matter how he might try to live it down. It is a felony crime in most states because most people in this country take animal abuse damned seriously.

Which is why he went to jail and served his time. Nobody in this thread has suggested Vick never did anything wrong. But how long does he have to keep paying for the crime?

Outrank on the food chain, eh? That's your definition of superior or - let's see - outrank? That's actually laughable. So Michael Vick outranks dogs on the evolutionary food chain so um. . .

You know I'm so concerned about where you're going with this, and so sure that I don't want to know, that I think we should drop it right here. In fact, I know for certain we have nothing more to say.

That's the first thing you've said I agree with.

[Diana Hignutt]

Okay, well tonight's Vick's first game (although preseason) and I just wanted to make a point.

In Philly we've been deluged by remarks from the Eagles organization about giving Vick a second chance. I am a big fan of second chances, having been given my share of them. I have decided that, yes, I will concede and be prepared to give Vick a second chance. That doesn't mean that everything is forgotten and goes back to zero. No, I will trust Eagles owner Jeffrey Lurie to make sure Vick does, in fact, give back to the community. I will give Vick a chance to prove himself one way or the other.

Now, I can go back to being an Eagles fan, for the time being. I'm watching how they handle this whole mess, too.

[Jcomp]

Vick revolts the hell out of me. That said, read up on where your local pet shop sources its puppies. You'll need a very strong stomach and the details are heartbreaking. The puppy millers are torturing dogs--not for fun, but for a handsome profit--and to satisfy the public appetite for labradoodles, puggles, shi-poos, cavachons, maltipoos, and other "designer" mutts. The penalties in place are a joke.

No, two wrongs don't make a right, but it's pretty inconsistent to make an example out of Vicks when animal abuse in this country is often penalized so lightly, if not outright rewarded.

Exactly. As I stated up thread we torture the shit out of animals as a global population to all sorts of degrees by all sorts of methods for various reasons. Recreation, food preparation, sport (the rodeo and iditarod hop to mind) and you hardly hear anyone get into an uproar about it. Suddenly a celebrity / athlete gets involved and even people who don't think athletes warrant extra attention suddenly find themselves all in a tizzy over it.

It doesn't excuse what Vick did, but if you're going to toss about righteous indignation go the distance. Don't just do it when there's a convenient spotlight under which you can perform at someone else's expense.

[Don]

Give him a second chance, Diana... but don't let him walk your dog! :ROFL:

[Diana Hignutt]

Give him a second chance, Diana... but don't let him walk your dog! :ROFL:

"Hide your beagle, Vick's an Eagle"

[nighttimer]

Wow. That is so funny. :Wha:

You'll probably find this to be a real side-splitter.

SPCA exec's dog dies after being left in hot car

The 16-year-old dog dies of kidney failure after being left for four hours

The Associated Press

updated 2:56 p.m. ET, Wed., Aug 26, 2009



RICHMOND, Virginia - An executive for an anti-animal cruelty group says her 16-year-old blind and deaf dog died after she accidentally left him in her hot car for four hours.

Robin Starr, the CEO of the Richmond Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals, says she didn't realize "Louie" was in the car until noon. Starr's husband, Ed, told the Richmond Times-Dispatch he put the dog in her car as she got ready for work Aug. 19. She often took the dog to work with her.
Robin Starr took the dog to two clinics, but he died of kidney failure.

The National Weather Service says the temperature had reached 91 degrees by noon that day.

The board of the SPCA says it still supports Starr, who has been CEO since 1997 and does not plan to resign. It was unclear whether she would be charged.

[shawkins]

The 16-year-old dog dies of kidney failure after being left for four hours

I'm inclined to give the ASPCA director the benefit of the doubt. Screw ups do happen. For instance, last weekend the new puppy jumped up on my counter and pulled down a bottle of the very old puppy's pills. Apparently they tasted like dog treats. Overdose ensued. It cost me about 1m salary to get the dogs taken care of. This was clearly a screw up on my part, and I do feel bad about it.

However, I'd argue that ethically it's not the same thing as raising the new puppy to fight and die for my amusement. My sympathy for Mr. Vick is fairly limited.

[Mharvey]

<table width="940" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr valign="top"><td align="left"><table id="topTools" width="100%" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr><td>PETA remains skeptical of Vick, considers protests at games</td></tr></tbody></table><!--startclickprintexclude--><table width="100%" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" height="25"><tbody><tr><td class="datestamp"><script type="text/javascript">document.write(niceDate('8/14/2009 6:51 PM'));</script>
</td><td align="right"><!-- EdSysObj ID="SSI-B" FRAGMENTID="13417811" rberthol -->| <!-- /EdSysObj --></td></tr></tbody></table><!--endclickprintexclude-->


</td></tr><tr><td valign="top" align="left"><table style="float: left;" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr><td>

<!-- ContentCoreElement ID="5121884e-ea9f-49c4-97ab-b8471a5899b8", DateTime="8/14/2009 6:52:19 PM" --><table class="vaOuter" xmlns:fo="http://www.w3.org/1999/XSL/Format" width="245" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr><td colspan="2" height="20">http://images.usatoday.com/_common/_images/clear.gif</td></tr><tr><td width="12">http://images.usatoday.com/_common/_images/clear.gif</td><td><table width="100%" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr><td colspan="2" valign="top">http://images.usatoday.com/_common/_images/clear.gif</td></tr><tr><td colspan="2" valign="top">http://images.usatoday.com/_common/_images/clear.gif</td></tr><tr><td colspan="2" valign="top"><link href="http://css.usatoday.com/_common/_styles/_inside/va-styles.css" type="text/css" rel="stylesheet"><script language="JavaScript" src="http://js.usatoday.com/_common/_scripts/va-expansion.js"></script><table width="100%" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr><td valign="top" width="5">http://images.usatoday.com/_common/_images/clear.gif</td><td class="vaLink" valign="top" width="228"></td></tr><tr><td colspan="2">http://images.usatoday.com/_common/_images/clear.gif</td></tr><tr><td colspan="2" bgcolor="#cccccc">http://images.usatoday.com/_common/_images/clear.gif</td></tr><tr><td colspan="2">http://images.usatoday.com/_common/_images/clear.gif</td></tr><tr><td valign="top" width="5">http://images.usatoday.com/_common/_images/clear.gif</td><td class="vaLink" valign="top" width="228"></td></tr><tr><td colspan="2">http://images.usatoday.com/_common/_images/clear.gif</td></tr><tr><td colspan="2" bgcolor="#cccccc">http://images.usatoday.com/_common/_images/clear.gif</td></tr><tr><td colspan="2">http://images.usatoday.com/_common/_images/clear.gif</td></tr><tr><td valign="top" width="5">http://images.usatoday.com/_common/_images/clear.gif</td><td class="vaLink" valign="top" width="228"></td></tr><tr><td colspan="2">http://images.usatoday.com/_common/_images/clear.gif</td></tr><tr><td colspan="2" bgcolor="#cccccc">http://images.usatoday.com/_common/_images/clear.gif</td></tr><tr><td colspan="2">http://images.usatoday.com/_common/_images/clear.gif</td></tr><tr><td valign="top" width="5">http://images.usatoday.com/_common/_images/clear.gif</td><td class="vaLink" valign="top" width="228"></td></tr><tr><td colspan="2">http://images.usatoday.com/_common/_images/clear.gif</td></tr><tr><td colspan="2" bgcolor="#cccccc">http://images.usatoday.com/_common/_images/clear.gif</td></tr><tr><td colspan="2">http://images.usatoday.com/_common/_images/clear.gif</td></tr><tr><td valign="top" width="5">http://images.usatoday.com/_common/_images/clear.gif</td><td class="vaLink" valign="top" width="228"></td></tr><tr><td colspan="2">http://images.usatoday.com/_common/_images/clear.gif</td></tr><tr><td colspan="2" bgcolor="#cccccc">http://images.usatoday.com/_common/_images/clear.gif</td></tr><tr><td colspan="2">http://images.usatoday.com/_common/_images/clear.gif</td></tr><tr><td valign="top" width="5">http://images.usatoday.com/_common/_images/clear.gif</td><td class="vaLink" valign="top" width="228"></td></tr><tr><td colspan="2">http://images.usatoday.com/_common/_images/clear.gif</td></tr><tr><td colspan="2" bgcolor="#cccccc">http://images.usatoday.com/_common/_images/clear.gif</td></tr><tr><td colspan="2">http://images.usatoday.com/_common/_images/clear.gif</td></tr><tr><td valign="top" width="5">http://images.usatoday.com/_common/_images/clear.gif</td><td class="vaLink" valign="top" width="228"></td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr><tr><td colspan="2" height="20">http://images.usatoday.com/_common/_images/clear.gif</td></tr></tbody></table>

<!-- End ContentCoreElement ID="5121884e-ea9f-49c4-97ab-b8471a5899b8" -->








</td></tr></tbody></table>
By Tom Pedulla, USA TODAYDan Shannon, a spokesman for People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (http://content.usatoday.com/topics/topic/People+for+the+Ethical+Treatment+of+Animals) (PETA), questioned the sincerity of Michael Vick (http://content.usatoday.com/topics/topic/People/Athletes/NFL/Michael+Vick)'s expressed remorse hours after the quarterback was introduced Friday as a member of the Philadelphia Eagles.

"Not quite comfortable is how we feel about it," said Shannon. "It's possible he's on the right path and only time will tell. But we, as an organization, haven't seen sufficient evidence of that."
Vick took an eight-hour course offered by PETA, Developing Empathy for Animals, on Sept. 18, 2007.
According to Shannon, PETA's discomfort stemmed from months of discussions with Vick about broadcasting public service announcements aimed at helping to eliminate dogfighting. He said PETA suspected that the former NFL (http://content.usatoday.com/topics/topic/National+Football+League) star was more interested in repairing his image than the cause itself and ended the talks in late January.
"It's hard to say what's really going on inside the guy," Shannon said. "Our worry was that he was doing it as a public relations move to try to regain his public image.
"We had concerns he was in it for personal gain rather than a genuine desire to help animals."
Shannon said PETA asked Vick to undergo a psychiatric evaluation in order to eliminate those worries. He refused. The quarterback is, however, working with the Humane Society.
PETA is considering holding protests whenever and wherever Vick plays for the Philadelphia Eagles. Shannon also emphasized the organization's desire to have the NFL formally add cruelty to animals as part of its personal conduct policy.
Brian McCarthy, a spokesman for the league, said such action is unnecessary.
"It goes without saying that such conduct violates the personal conduct policy," McCarthy said. "It is already covered, as the Michael Vick case demonstrates."

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/eagles/2009-08-14-peta-response-vick_N.htm



I'm with PETA.




</td></tr></tbody></table>

Okey dokes - my 2 cents on this:

What Michael Vick did was wrong, inhumane and barbaric. I love dogs. The fact he could, according to testimony at one of his trials, personally hold one's head underwater until it stopped moving is an action you would equate to a sociopath.

He was sentenced to 23 months incarceration. That's the price for drowning dogs in our society.

He was then released - by our laws and by our mandates... he is a free man. He has paid his debt to society. He's Even-Steven for what he's done, and if PETA goes after him or his family, he should get a restraining order and even file charges if they so much as step one foot on his property. If PETA protests at games, and interrupts *my* enjoyment of a football game to push their message on me, they should be kicked out of the stadium.

If PETA feels Michael Vick's punishment should have been greater - maybe drowning dogs should be the same as manslaughter, or even first degree murder (I'm not so certain I'm being sarcastic here, actually - I wouldn't have felt sorry for Vick if he were thrown in jail for 7-10 years) - then that is a fight they should be making to a federal or Supreme Court judge. Directing their anger toward Vick, who had really no say in how strongly he would be punished is misdirected, childish and will accomplish nothing.

Obviously Vick is going to refuse to do anything PETA "requests" of him to do. They're obviously out to try and crucify him. If an Al-Queda terrorist asked me if I could kindly put on a backpack of theirs and head into a Paul McCartney concert... y'know... I'd probably refuse to do that too. It's an extreme example, but PETA *obviously* means harm to Michael Vick, and anyone who has ever been found guilty of animal rights crimes. You don't comply with anything they want you to do... because if they had a choice, they'd see Vick held underwater until he drowned. Their track record certainly doesn't show them to be "seekers of the truth."

If PETA starts protesting at games, that's simply forcing their beliefs down everyone else's throat at a completely inappropriate venue. People are at a football game to have a good time - they don't need to be preached at there, and that will probably just alienate people from their organization. PETA's reputation is already akin to a running joke around where I live - they don't need to look even more ridiculous chasing Michael Vick like angry teenieboppers, splashing all Eagles fans with red paint, and all the other prepubescent antics they're known for.

[blacbird]

PETA really needs to let dead horses lie.

caw

[dgiharris]

Gotta love PETA. "Do exactly what we say, when we say, or else we won't believe you are sincere in your repetence."

I've made this point several times. When you commit a crime and serve your time in accordance with the law (yes to include plea bargains) then you've wiped the slate clean. Period. Continued punishment by society after a debt has been paid in accordance with the law is immoral.

We stopped issuing Scarlet letters a couple of centuries ago and for good reason. That sorta shit leads to the very 'worst' of humanity and is a step away from assembling into mobs and lynching people.

I am being serious. How many bad things have happened when people sit around in groups and whip themselves up into a tizzy about the 'evil' of whatever it is. You keep going round and round, until emotion spins out of control and it isn't long before someone takes it upon themselves to personally 'right' the 'wrong', usually with a sniper rifle, a homemade bomb, or just a good old fashion .38 caliber hand gun at close range.

that is the kind of shit that happens in a civilized society when we do not respect the 'spirit' of the law. We end up corrupting that very same spirit until something vile and dark happens.

Mel...

[BarkingPup]

Well, I'll add what I think to this thread. It may not be much but it's an opinion of a sort.

Note: I loooove animals completely and absolutely with my whole heart and HATE PETA the same way.

I honestly don't understand why people are freaking out over Vick's treatment of these dogs. To me, it just seems as if Vick was responding the way his environment told him to. Introduced to dog fighting at a young age meant he believed it was a commonplace and natural thing. More than likely the techniques he applied to train, punish and kill the dogs were taught by his mentor. In Vick's head the dogs were commodities that needed to perform to be useful and bring in money. If one cannot do so you kill it; remove the money drain. The same thing is applied to racing Greyhounds and animal mills (and, in a less dramatic way, our very own working society). It's nothing very shocking. And if you have a commodity it doesn't matter if you take out your anger on it. Like, if a dog didn't perform like you wanted it to and now it's useless... well, why not torture it a bit to let out your frustrations directly on the creature? In a society of redirected anger it probably felt good and even better that the creature can respond with pain. In Vick's mind they were nothing and he treated them that way. Basic psychology.

According to the law Vick has learned his lesson and is working his way through his sentence. Why is it so hard to believe he's repented? Are all animal abusers complete and utter assholes who deserve nothing but the cold hard floors of jail cells? Perhaps if he ends up doing something unlawful again I'll believe he was bad to the bone but until then I think he deserves a second chance.

Yes, I'm horrified but I can sit back and see things from a less emotional and more psychological side. I mean, in my eyes a guy dogfighting hardly compares to those kids who broke into someone's house and microwaved their kitten. Now that's senseless and cruel.

*sigh* well, just my two cents... which in Canadian currency is about .01 cents of U.S money.... which means it's not worth much :D

[Diana Hignutt]

"Hide your beagle, Vick's an Eagle"

Yeah, I should have sourced that, it was on the front page of the Daily News the day they announced Vick's signing. If you lived around here, you would hear it constantly.

[Diana Hignutt]

Gotta love PETA. "Do exactly what we say, when we say, or else we won't believe you are sincere in your repetence."

I've made this point several times. When you commit a crime and serve your time in accordance with the law (yes to include plea bargains) then you've wiped the slate clean. Period. Continued punishment by society after a debt has been paid in accordance with the law is immoral.

We stopped issuing Scarlet letters a couple of centuries ago and for good reason. That sorta shit leads to the very 'worst' of humanity and is a step away from assembling into mobs and lynching people.

I am being serious. How many bad things have happened when people sit around in groups and whip themselves up into a tizzy about the 'evil' of whatever it is. You keep going round and round, until emotion spins out of control and it isn't long before someone takes it upon themselves to personally 'right' the 'wrong', usually with a sniper rifle, a homemade bomb, or just a good old fashion .38 caliber hand gun at close range.

that is the kind of shit that happens in a civilized society when we do not respect the 'spirit' of the law. We end up corrupting that very same spirit until something vile and dark happens.

Mel...

The problem here, which I have brought up numerous times and you have not addressed it is:

Vick was also sentenced to hundreds of hours of community service, which he has in no way completed. So no, he has not paid fully for his crimes yet. Stop saying that he has.

Second, I said, I had changed my mind on this issue and was willing to give the guy a second chance.

[dgiharris]

The problem here, which I have brought up numerous times and you have not addressed it is:

Vick was also sentenced to hundreds of hours of community service, which he has in no way completed. So no, he has not paid fully for his crimes yet. Stop saying that he has.

Second, I said, I had changed my mind on this issue and was willing to give the guy a second chance.

Few things,

One. This post is not directly pointed at you, it is just a general comment and point.

Two. He's lost millions because of this, went to jail, and is out. If he is sentenced to hundreds of hours of community service he is in the midsts of COMPLETING that sentence in accordance with his parole. So I fail to see your point? What is your point, that since he isn't done with the community service we have every right to berate him until he's finished?

My point still holds, the man HAS BEEN PUNISHED and or is still in the midsts of completing his punishment. Any 'extra' punishment by society is immoral.

If you want to get lawyerly and knitpick the specifics of my point and say, "Well, you know technically he hasn't been completely punished because he still has X hours of community service" I guess you can do that and get a warm fuzzy from being right from that aspect.

But the 'spirit' of my argument is still 100% true and still holds in this case. When someone has been punished within the confines of the law and is serving out that punishment within the confines of the law, any 'extra' punishment by the citizenry is still immoral.

Mel...

[AMCrenshaw]

he's playing tonight... i heard the (b)eagles fans are throwing dog feces.

[dgiharris]

he's playing tonight... i heard the (b)eagles fans are throwing dog feces.

Be interesting to see how all the Dog Mascots treat him. Wonder if the Cleveland Brown Mascot will be hit with something inspiring?

Actually, I doubt the league would allow the mascots to do anything to draw undo attention to it.

And Regarding his treatment by Fans and calls for continued punishement, see my post #125

but despite my post #125, fans still have every right not to like him. It is just going the extra mile to not like him I call foul. And hurling dog feces would be that extra mile (which I hope to god you are joking) :D

Mel...

[Bird of Prey]

But the 'spirit' of my argument is still 100% true and still holds in this case. When someone has been punished within the confines of the law and is serving out that punishment within the confines of the law, any 'extra' punishment by the citizenry is still immoral.

Mel...

That could be the most bizarre statement I've ever heard here. Seriously. That makes me immoral then, Mel, because my idea - and that of most of my acquantances and friends in Pa. and beyond - of "extra punishment" is simply not pay to see the damn Eagle games nor watch them on television. So that's immoral, eh?

Wow. God bless America. Well, I guess a lot of ex Eagle fans are goin' to hell. . . .

[Bird of Prey]

he's playing tonight... i heard the (b)eagles fans are throwing dog feces.

Excellent choice.

[Bird of Prey]

http://www.freewebs.com/carolinapits/petey.jpg

[dgiharris]

That could be the most bizarre statement I've ever heard here. Seriously. That makes me immoral then, Mel, because my idea - and that of most of my acquantances and friends in Pa. and beyond - of "extra punishment" is simply not pay to see the damn Eagle games nor watch them on television. So that's immoral, eh?

Wow. God bless America. Well, I guess a lot of ex Eagle fans are goin' to hell. . . .

You are always well within your rights to not buy a ticket. That is not an immoral action.

An immoral action would be to take a punitive action against him beyond the law. Throwing dog shit at him during a game qualifies.

And my argument isn't exclusive to Michael Vick though he qualifies. I'm speaking about society as a whole. Continuing to punish people 'after' they've paid their debt to society in accordance to the laws of society is not right.

What is the alternative? That if someone commits a crime, goes to prison, gets out, it is o.k. for citizens to continue to take punitive actions against them?

Again, those sorts of actions leads to the degradation and sabatoge of the entire legal system and process. Evidence of my argument can be implicitly found in the statistics of repeat offenders.

Criminals get out of jail but can't get a job because society refuses to hire them so they go back to crime, get caught, go to jail, come out, rinse and repeat.

In the end, a failure to foster a rehabilatative system hurts us all.

that is my argument. What exactly about my argument do you find fault with?

Mel...

[Bird of Prey]

You are always well within your rights to not buy a ticket. That is not an immoral action.

An immoral action would be to take a punitive action against him beyond the law. Throwing dog shit at him during a game qualifies.

And my argument isn't exclusive to Michael Vick though he qualifies. I'm speaking about society as a whole. Continuing to punish people 'after' they've paid their debt to society in accordance to the laws of society is not right.

What is the alternative? That if someone commits a crime, goes to prison, gets out, it is o.k. for citizens to continue to take punitive actions against them?


Well, Mel, it depends on how selective we are, doesn't it?? You like football - I'll hazard a guess -so no matter what this shithead does, he's paid is debt to society as far as your concerned, right? Besides that, dogs are kinda - you know - not as important as that big ass football career which entertains big ass fans sitting on couches across the nation who would gladly forget what a sadist this ****** is. . . . .



Criminals get out of jail but can't get a job because society refuses to hire them so they go back to crime, get caught, go to jail, come out, rinse and repeat.
In the end, a failure to foster a rehabilatative system hurts us all.

that is my argument. What exactly about my argument do you find fault with?

Mel...

This *******that you're so willing to forgive barely served time, got no legitimate psychological evaluation as far as I can tell, and has a history of sociopathic better defined as psychotic behavior. He enjoyed inflicting pain. He enjoyed torturing and killing dogs and watching them tear each other to death. He relished agony. Do you understand that? Do you have any real sense of what that means?

Vick essentially escaped a legitimate sentence because he was rich, no different than another football shithead-hero named O.J. Simpson. Now as far as I'm concerned, people who are willing to resubmit their public acclaim and the resurrection of a hideously vile man's fortune regardless of what he did are frankly no better than he is. This guy should not be out on the streets or enjoying your ill-founded accolades or your misguided "forgiveness." If he were a "nobody," people would be just as happy to see him rot in jail for the rest of his life. Me? He should be in an institution with security until society - and potential victims like those poor dogs that you so easily dismiss - are reasonably safe. Under those circumstances under the observation of professionals, it's doubtful that he would be released for a very long time.

You and I have a very different idea regarding what suffering means and who qualifies for sympathy. Frankly, it makes me sick. But most assuredly, you and his fans will rue the day they traded a lust for a sport over common human decency. Or maybe not. Scary but possible. . . .

Regarding the rest of your post, it's bull. I've said it innumerable times. If an individual is a threat to society he stays locked up. Otherwise, set him free. But frankly, too many pedophiles and likewise animal abusers and wife beaters are released when they need to stay within the confines of institutions that can at least house them safely and as a result, protect society. Likewise for Vick.

[nighttimer]

he's playing tonight... i heard the (b)eagles fans are throwing dog feces.

Excellent choice.

I'm trying to fathom what kind of "morality" it takes to suggest chunking dog feces at another human being is a "excellent choice." My determination is there is no morality involved in such an act. It's only an act of total idiocy.

According to Philly.com (http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/inq-eagles/Vck_get_ovatio.html) Vick did receive a standing ovation from the crowd.

The Eagles' new quarterback checked in on the team's second play from scrimmage. As Vick trotted out on the field, a large portion of the crowd rose to their feet to cheer on the disgraced former Atlanta Falcons player. If there were boos, they were drowned out by the majority who appeared to be in favor of the controversial move.

No reports on Philly.com of any dog droppings being lobbed at Vick.

Which probably means the rumor of tossed dogshit turns out to be bullshit.

Oh, and calling Vick a SOB (or son of a bitch) is a really classless move, Bird of Prey. Edit it out if you like, but you can't unring the bell.

And your amateur night psychologly of Vick is really getting tired. Comparing Michael Vick to murderers, pedophiles, and wife beaters (you left out Nazis and child pornographers) is not just wrong, it's ridiculous. In your berserk attempt to compare Vick to Satan you have only succeeded in making yourself appear shrill, unreasonable and hysterical.

You've established you don't have a shred of forgiveness in your bones. Why do you keep repeating yourself? The message was clear a long time ago.

[poetinahat]

Courts impose sentences; the penal system enforces them.

Citizens may disagree with the court's decision; they may despise, they may decide not to forgive. They certainly don't have to patronise, and they may well protest. But they may not impose additional punishment as they personally see fit.

Analogy by way of digression (this issue arose in, what, the 2000 Presidential election?): Is it just for a state to rescind a convicted felon's right to vote, even after said convict has served the time mandated? IMO, No. At that point, there is a record, but the ledger is clean in terms of fundamental human rights.

Who would you hire to run a day-care centre or drive an armored car? That's another story. But all are entitled to basic rights.

[Bird of Prey]

I'm trying to fathom what kind of "morality" it takes to suggest chunking dog feces at another human being is a "excellent choice." My determination is there is no morality involved in such an act. It's only an act of total idiocy.

According to Philly.com (http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/inq-eagles/Vck_get_ovatio.html) Vick did receive a standing ovation from the crowd.

The Eagles' new quarterback checked in on the team's second play from scrimmage. As Vick trotted out on the field, a large portion of the crowd rose to their feet to cheer on the disgraced former Atlanta Falcons player. If there were boos, they were drowned out by the majority who appeared to be in favor of the controversial move.

No reports on Philly.com of any dog droppings being lobbed at Vick.

Which probably means the rumor of tossed dogshit turns out to be bullshit.

Oh, and calling Vick a SOB (or son of a bitch) is a really classless move, Bird of Prey. Edit it out if you like, but you can't unring the bell.

And your amateur night psychologly of Vick is really getting tired. Comparing Michael Vick to murderers, pedophiles, and wife beaters (you left out Nazis and child pornographers) is not just wrong, it's ridiculous. In your berserk attempt to compare Vick to Satan you have only succeeded in making yourself appear shrill, unreasonable and hysterical.

You've established you don't have a shred of forgiveness in your bones. Why do you keep repeating yourself? The message was clear a long time ago.


You already declared yourself somebody who can separating torturing dogs to death from a what you consider a "superior" being aka human who should be forgiven because , in fact, a human is superior, right?? What did you call it - "top of the food chain?" Wasn't that you? So by all means, worship Vick as far as I'm concerned. Give him a standing ovation. Very few times here do I ever find it worth cutting off all discourse, but this is clearly the time. There's no point in your addressing my posts again and assuredly I'll do the the same for you. We're done.

[AMCrenshaw]

You already declared yourself somebody who can separating torturing dogs to death from a what you consider a "superior" being aka human who should be forgiven because , in fact, a human is superior, right??

Or maybe NT isn't throwing the first stone at the prostitute, know what I mean?


AMC

[Bird of Prey]

Or maybe NT isn't throwing the first stone at the prostitute, know what I mean?


AMC

Was the prostitute electrocuted to death, or hung, or stoned or bleeding to death, disemboweled from being ripped to pieces by another of her species, who was also forced to fight?

[AMCrenshaw]

Was the prostitute electrocuted to death, or hung, or stoned or bleeding to death, disemboweled from being ripped to pieces by another of her species, who was also forced to fight?

Did it matter to Him?

[Bird of Prey]

Did it matter to Him?

If "Him" is um, "Him" the idea was to eliminate suffering, not exonerate the fucking stone throwers. . . . .

[AMCrenshaw]

I mean, I guess I don't know what you want, BoP. A guy who has talent to not use it, to not be allowed to use it. Shit like this happens all the time every day -- what kind of example are you trying to set? Who are you? An enforcer or a lover? Next thing I'll hear you saying he should be killed Deek-style. Is there room for atonement? And who decides that? Philly fans have spoken on the matter. So has PETA. So has philadelphia itself. So have you. The decision is the decision -- so it is, so it be, let it go.


The test of time here is for people to have compassion for wrong-doers, since we've all done wrong, and when we've done wrong, it's OK to ask for compassion. He has, publicly. He's went to prison for two years. What else do you want? Positive contribution is what I'm after now, and I think we can get it.

[poetinahat]

Did it matter to Him?

If "Him" is um, "Him" the idea was to eliminate suffering, not exonerate the fucking stone throwers. . . . .

I believe that the idea was to point out that none of us is completely innocent, and to help us question whether we're qualified to pass judgement.

[nighttimer]

You already declared yourself somebody who can separating torturing dogs to death from a what you consider a "superior" being aka human who should be forgiven because , in fact, a human is superior, right?? What did you call it - "top of the food chain?" Wasn't that you?

Yep. It was. And seeing how people own dogs instead of the other way around, I feel pretty comfortable in the belief human beings---including Vick---occupy the superior position on the food chain.

So by all means, worship Vick as far as I'm concerned. Give him a standing ovation. Very few times here do I ever find it worth cutting off all discourse, but this is clearly the time. There's no point in your addressing my posts again and assuredly I'll do the the same for you. We're done.

No, you're done. Don't try to speak for me. As long as you continue to make outrageous remarks, distortions, and rant based upon your blind hatred, I will address your posts again to set the record straight.

You can do whatever you floats your boat.

[Cranky]

And I'd suggest a deep breath or two, all around.

Just sayin'.

[AMCrenshaw]

If he were a "nobody," people would be just as happy to see him rot in jail for the rest of his life.

This is where I think you are most wrong. If he were a nobody, nobody would know he was in jail. I don't want people in institutions for shit that a proper mentor can take care of (and should have taken care of a decade prior). Really I feel and understand your anger and pain, BoP; I've two lovely dogs and it makes me physically ill to imagine harm coming to them in any capacity, much less intentional. But what does my anger and hostility do for restoration in this situation? Nothing. Nothing at all. Paralysis. Look to now and look forward: I know that Vick cannot resurrect the dead or undo what he's done. No one can do that. What can be done positively, here and now?


AMC

[Bird of Prey]

I believe that the idea was to point out that none of us is completely innocent, and to help us question whether we're qualified to pass judgement.


Are you implying that I'm remotely capable of doing what that monster did? Sure you are. Well, for the record, I'm well qualified to pass judgment, sorry Poet. Because for all the shitty things I've ever done, I did never did anything remotely resembling something like this:
http://fortheloveofthedogblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/dallas_pitbull_burned-242x300.jpg

[AMCrenshaw]

And apparently that's the sum total of Michael Vick, ladies and gentlemen.

[Bird of Prey]

And apparently that's the sum total of Michael Vick, ladies and gentlemen.
http://premiumblend.net/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/michael_vick_pit_bull.jpg

Yeah, he's just a misunderstood ol boy. . . .

[shawkins]

And apparently that's the sum total of Michael Vick, ladies and gentlemen.

Pretty much, yeah.

[poetinahat]

[quote=Bird of Prey;3979308]Are you implying that I'm remotely capable of doing what that monster did? Sure you are. Well, for the record, I'm well qualified to pass judgment, sorry Poet. Because for all the shitty things I've ever done, I did never did anything remotely resembling something like this:

I can't even believe you've stretched what I said that far.

I worded my post extremely carefully, precisely to avoide implying anything. ETA: Note that I said "none of us is completely innocent".

You're spoiling for a fight, and you're not getting one from me.

I'm insulted that you'd even try this on. If you're going to look that hard to find that sort of implication, I have no interest in being in a discussion with you.

[nighttimer]

The legal system is a mess, just a mess. And, no I don't think she's "screwed up in the head," and I have to say I find that an exceedingly crude evaluation regarding a victim, who will probably emerge from the ordeal just fine. Why? Because she wasn't a genetic and/or formative emotional disaster to begin with. I don't know her, but my experience with people who have suffered severe trauma have a really good shot at a normal life if their formative years were solid. I suspect hers were. . . . .

Are you implying that I'm remotely capable of doing what that monster did? Sure you are. Well, for the record, I'm well qualified to pass judgment, sorry Poet. Because for all the shitty things I've ever done, I did never did anything remotely resembling something like this:

Your shamelessly manipulative and provocative propaganda aside, it's quite telling how broken up and outraged you are about a dog and how casually indifferent you are about a young woman who was kidnapped, raped and impregnated over 18 years by a real monster.

Hey, the guy might be a pedophile and a rapist, but at least he wasn't mean to dogs. That's what counts.

By the way, Michael Vick is 29 years old. He is NOT a "boy." Misunderstood or otherwise.

[dgiharris]

There is no debate here if we can't untangle the emotion of this thing.

If you feel the lives of dogs are equivalent to humans, then this issue is too close and personal to debate.

Despite the fact that you will have no qualms about eating a hamburger tomorrow for lunch and pork chops for dinner.

It is clear that it is the position of some that Vick's crime is so heinous as to warrant a punishment equivalent to that of murder.

If that is the case, there is no point debating.

Mel...

[dgiharris]

So BoP,

My last attempt to deconvolute the emotion of your argument. My argument has nothing to do with Vick being a football player.

I think you have no understanding of what you are truly advocating. And I think you have an inability to apply your beliefs to any model bigger than your living room.

My argument is as fundamentally simple as it is sound. The entire basis of a society's justice system lies in its system of ascertaining guilt, innocence, enforcement of the law, punishment, and restitution.

If someone commits a crime and the justice system ascertains guilt, allocates punitive action against said person and said person has completed/suffered that punitive action then that is the end of the matter and that person should be released into society so he/she can become a productive member.

If that is not the end of the matter, then what you have is a justice system that has no real exhaust system. No real output. Criminals come in, but they never get out. Society develops into a self perpetuating punishment machine that defies the laws of physics.

Individuals who commit crimes have no ability to perform any act of restitution. They have no way to right their wrong. This translates into them having no way to become a positive member of socieity, thus they become a negative member. Their negative membership/activities will ultimately hurt the society as a whole...

end Part I of rant Mel...

[dgiharris]

The problem in this case is that YOU personally feel that he has not been punished enough.

That is the thinking of a vigilante, that the 'system' is not good enough and thus you must take matters into your own hand.

If the system isn't good enough and members of the society take matters into their own hands, then the law becomes null and void.

If the law becomes null and void then the social contract we all ascribe to becomes meaningless.

If we have no social contract we descend into chaos and barbarism.

Notice how my argument has nothing to do with celebritism, rich, poor, white, black, etc.

I'm arguing theory and then apply this theory to this case.

Are there times when I think the Justice system has failed? Sure. But if I oppose our system, if I take matters into my own hands, I push our entire society that much closer to voiding the social contract that keeps us from killing, raping, and pillaging one another.

End Part II of rant

Mel...

[Cranky]

Thingy-rant/

If folks can't back it off a touch or two, this is going to completely degenerate into a thread-wrecking squabble, not a debate. It's tiring. And if it keeps up, I won't be at all sorry to see this one locked.

/Thingy-rant

[Bird of Prey]

There is no debate here if we can't untangle the emotion of this thing.

If you feel the lives of dogs are equivalent to humans, then this issue is too close and personal to debate.

Despite the fact that you will have no qualms about eating a hamburger tomorrow for lunch and pork chops for dinner.

It is clear that it is the position of some that Vick's crime is so heinous as to warrant a punishment equivalent to that of murder.

If that is the case, there is no point debating.

Mel...

I don't eat hamburgers and I don't eat porkchops. I think you should stop assuming what I do and what I think, Mel, which is a significant problem regarding this debate. As I've said before, Vick's crime demonstrates extreme sadism. Despite how you or any person may feel about canines, and despite the fact that a few here might find them ever so disposable and insignificant compared to the talents of a football player, a sadistic tendency that was acted upon for that long and with that much passion isn't going to suddenly end because loyal fans are giving that football player a "standing ovation." He barely served any time; he hasn't been properly observed or treated, and he's a monster.


Regarding the rest of your condescending "comments," may I remind you that a young woman was just found after eighteen years of living in a backyard because her captor was "overlooked" - let's put it that way - by the justice system. When it is demonstrated that an individual has sadistic intentions, that his cruelty is beyond the bounds of rational limits, you don't let him go. Is that clear?? And if he is - for some reason - let go, then it's up to the public to remind him that he is under scrutiny. But a fan should certainly not applaud him as he runs down the field because his entertainment value trumps the danger he presents to the public.

There are several kinds of sex offenders. The ones that are tracked for their whole lives because they had sex with a seventeen year old when they were twenty should not exactly be penalized beyond their sentence. But there are those that are tracked because they continually pose a threat to the public, and those people shouldn't be out at all. Peace of mind is worth the money. As they are not functioning as rational human beings, they need to be incarcerated and treated as well as society can treat them given what we know about disorders of this nature. But no, they should not be on the street. Vick is no different. And although it's convenient to agree with you on principle, we are witness to too many murders and heinous acts by repeat offenders who are NOT RATIONAL to "let bygones be bygones." Common sense dictates that we look at the degree of malice in a crime against innocents before we um, "cheer the perp" down the field. . . . .

[Ken]

... was surprised to hear that fans cheered his return, yesterday.
Accepting him back is one thing, but cheering him?

[Bird of Prey]

... was surprised to hear that fans cheered his return, yesterday.
Accepting him back is one thing, but cheering him?

It's really sick. It's like sucking up to O.J. Simpson on the golf course or all the invitations to marriage that some of the worst of the worst get, like those two kids got for murdering their parents. It's really sick.

[Jcomp]

... was surprised to hear that fans cheered his return, yesterday.
Accepting him back is one thing, but cheering him?

Not to be judgmental, but this is the Philly Eagles fanbase. I wasn't lying when I talked about their infamy. They cheered Michael Irvin's potential paralysis (I know, not all of them cheered, etc. etc.). You've got a human being from an opposing team who's lying motionless on the field after being driven headfirst into the rock-hard turf of Veteran's Stadium and a cheer goes up in the crowd.

The idea that Philly fans would be especially mean to or mad at Mike always sort of baffled me but seemed smaller than the primary issue discussed. Maybe if Mike was playing for the other team or if he had a horrendous game. If he plays well he's going to get a lot of love from the hardcore Philly fans, that's just reality.

[Ken]

You've got a human being from an opposing team who's lying motionless on the field after being driven headfirst into the rock-hard turf of Veteran's Stadium and a cheer goes up in the crowd.

... wow :-O
(I don't follow football. Loved to play it when I was a teen, but never got into watching it ... and am rather glad for that. I'm sure this incident isn't typical. But still ...)

[Prozyan]

Not to be judgmental, but this is the Philly Eagles fanbase. I wasn't lying when I talked about their infamy. They cheered Michael Irvin's potential paralysis (I know, not all of them cheered, etc. etc.). You've got a human being from an opposing team who's lying motionless on the field after being driven headfirst into the rock-hard turf of Veteran's Stadium and a cheer goes up in the crowd.

The idea that Philly fans would be especially mean to or mad at Mike always sort of baffled me but seemed smaller than the primary issue discussed. Maybe if Mike was playing for the other team or if he had a horrendous game. If he plays well he's going to get a lot of love from the hardcore Philly fans, that's just reality.

They booed Santa Claus. Seriously.

[AMCrenshaw]

They booed Santa Claus. Seriously.

Hence the joke about throwing dog feces ...







AMC

[Perks]

Criminals get out of jail but can't get a job because society refuses to hire them so they go back to crime, get caught, go to jail, come out, rinse and repeat.

In the end, a failure to foster a rehabilatative system hurts us all.

I could plug certain circumstances like robbery, burglary, drug trafficking into this statement, but can't really see how it would apply to the high recidivism rates in rapists, child molesters, and violent offenders. None of that shit will get you fed, clothed, or under a roof.

Of course, this doesn't apply to Michael Vick's case. Just a sidebar observation.

[MoonWriter]

Criminals get out of jail but can't get a job because society refuses to hire them so they go back to crime, get caught, go to jail, come out, rinse and repeat.

In the end, a failure to foster a rehabilatative system hurts us all.

Mel...

This is probably true in a lot of cases, but I recently watched a documentary which profiled an inmate doing time for possession. He was given training, a job, and had to report for drug screening. Less than 2 months later, he tested positive and went back to jail. I can't remember the exact figure, but I believe more than half of the convicted felons do return.

Could the rehabilitative system be improved? Sure, but until these convicts take responsibility for their actions and decide to become contributing members of society, I'm not sure there's much hope for them - or for us, their potential victims.

[AMCrenshaw]

Drugs vs. torturing dogs. One is addictive. The other Vick says he never understood until he sat in prison and that's all he thought about. Now he has guidance from an excellent man (Tony Dungy); I trust that. Vick is also in a position to make a positive contribution to the community. I think he will. If his conscience is as he says it is he has no real option. He has to make a positive contribution to the community; he has to spread awareness about animal cruelty.

I watched Vick on TV standing in front of a bunch of children answering questions about what he'd done to animals. The commentator had said something like, the questions asked by children are more difficult to answer than those asked by adults. And he was forward with his answers and I think the remorse was very evident. We will see what the effects of his remorse are, but, as I said, with a second chance, excellent guidance I'm not sure he had before, and a community in need of a successful turn-around story, I am hopeful he will help the cause he once violated.


AMC

[escritora]

This is probably true in a lot of cases, but I recently watched a documentary which profiled an inmate doing time for possession. He was given training, a job, and had to report for drug screening. Less than 2 months later, he tested positive and went back to jail. I can't remember the exact figure, but I believe more than half of the convicted felons do return.

Getting thrown in jail for possession doesn't sit well with me. Maybe he's an addict.

[nighttimer]

Maybe the Philly faithful cheered Vick because he's taken so much shit from the clueless elitists who compare him to rapists, murderers, sex offenders, pedophiles, the Frankenstein monster and Attila the Hun.

Maybe they're as sick of the lynch mob mentality as I am. Go boycott a puppy mill or something.

[BenPanced]

Maybe if he hadn't done any jail time? Hang him.

What's done is done is done. He's served his jail time, he's apologized, he's getting help. Hang him, burn his corpse, and dance on the ashes, I guess.

[AMCrenshaw]

What's done is done is done. He's served his jail time, he's apologized, he's getting help. Hang him, burn his corpse, and dance on the ashes, I guess.

That's essentially what I was asking: what do people want? I want positive action in the present, what else can we expect of anyone when nothing mitigates or undoes a crime?

[MoonWriter]

That's essentially what I was asking: what do people want? I want positive action in the present, what else can we expect of anyone when nothing mitigates or undoes a crime?

Positive action would be ideal. Time in jail, imo, does more harm than good - and does not make restitution to the victims. Seems to me, in general, those in jail learn tips on how not to get caught again once released. (Not talking about Vick - I feel he won't make the same mistake twice.)

I would like to have seem Vick spend his jail time working days at an animal shelter. To me, that would have made a more positive impression on kids - seeing him feeding, cleaning up after, and playing with the animals. To have a pro football player, an idol to many kids, talk about what he did to his dogs seems like a bad idea. No matter how contrite he sounds, I wonder if some of those kids might think, if my idol treated dogs like that, maybe I should. Might be a stretch, but I can't help but wonder.

[Perks]

I have no problem with Michael Vick getting on with his life past this twisted shit. I doubt he'll do that again and time will tell if the dog-torture was simply a lapse of empathy that is walled off by the species border. Here's hoping.

But I think his slot in the NFL roster should be forfeit for the reason I cited in the first Michael Vick thread.

The story goes that Joe DiMaggio was threatened with being booted out of the sport because, out of uniform, he wasn't friendly enough to the fans.

Apparently, he was a shy man and wasn't thrilled when strangers would approach him on the street or in a restaurant. But the New York Yankees told him that they paid him enough to make the team look good, in or out of the ballpark. He took them seriously enough to try, beyond his own comfort level.

I like that as an example. There are a lot of talented young men out there who can play football. Michael Vick was fun to watch. He strangled dogs. He's all done, if I had my way.

[BenPanced]

That's essentially what I was asking: what do people want? I want positive action in the present, what else can we expect of anyone when nothing mitigates or undoes a crime?
That golden GOTCHA! moment if/when he gets busted again.

[AMCrenshaw]

To have a pro football player, an idol to many kids, talk about what he did to his dogs seems like a bad idea. No matter how contrite he sounds, I wonder if some of those kids might think, if my idol treated dogs like that, maybe I should. Might be a stretch, but I can't help but wonder.

I'm not so sure. Anecdote: when I was in middle school, a bunch of former criminals came to speak about their lives. They did the speeches, saying upfront what they'd done and why they thought they did it and they were always sure to declare that their lives as such were dead-ends. It hit home with a lot of us. Yes, there's the added bit about idolization, but kids aren't deaf to the news I don't think. In my opinion coming forth honestly sets a good example; so is taking action to turn things around. The lesson is of course that his crimes were terrible in degree, relative to what the average person is capable -- but he's not entirely lost, and most of us aren't. That's a good example to set, I think.


AMC

[Perks]

That's essentially what I was asking: what do people want? I want positive action in the present, what else can we expect of anyone when nothing mitigates or undoes a crime?It's probably why we're instructed at an early age not to do fucked up things.

Forgive and forget is a lovely unrealistic concept. A child in my daughter's class blurted out that he'd witnessed a terrible physical conflict between his parents and went on to describe it. The comment was elicited by an open discussion the children were having about family fights.

Now his parents may have kissed and made up. Maybe they've sought counseling. Maybe it was a one time thing. I don't know. But I do know what I think of every time I seem at a school function. That may make me a 'clueless elitist' in St. Nighttimer's eyes. I'm trying to be bothered about that.

The things we don't get away with will get stuck in our auras for a length of time somewhat in proportion to the mental image invoked (and the mores of the time.)

[AMCrenshaw]

Forgive and forget is a lovely unrealistic concept.



Who said anything about forgetting? Is that what I'm about?

I'm not talking about amnesia here, because let's face it, the only reason he will be making a positive contribution in the Philadelphia community is because people, including himself, are absolutely going to remember what he's done.

AMC

[TerzaRima]

That's essentially what I was asking: what do people want?

I don't think Vick should sit in jail forever, no, but I think felons--not just those convicted of crimes against dogs, but felons in general--shouldn't be allowed back in the NFL. I realize there is precedent for this in professional sports, and I'm inviting a series of posts about blablabla throwing arm has nothing to do with character blablabla being nice bla doesn't mean you can't win games. But considering that our culture does everything but fellate high profile athletes, and the adoration with which many kids regard them, I think acceptance of this kind of thing is an indictment of the game, the owners, and the fans.

There are many jobs, far lower paying than Vick's, which a felony conviction makes difficult to get and for good reason. If Vick were applying to work for any of you special pleaders, how many of you would consider the slate wiped clean?

[AMCrenshaw]

I don't think Vick should sit in jail forever, no, but I think felons--not just those convicted of crimes against dogs, but felons in general--shouldn't be allowed back in the NFL. I realize there is precedent for this in professional sports, and I'm inviting a series of posts about blablabla throwing arm has nothing to do with character blablabla being nice bla doesn't mean you can't win games. But considering that our culture does everything but fellate high profile athletes, and the adoration with which many kids regard them, I think acceptance of this kind of thing is an indictment of the game, the owners, and the fans.

Acceptance? We have to accept he's made a mistake. It's a fact. Tolerate? It's already happened.

It seems to me that condemning Vick on the grounds that our culture worships celebrities is really absurd (I apologize up front, I just can't think of another word). Celebrities are human, in fact, and I'm about tired of them being seen as otherwise. The standard we hold them to is unrealistic -- no wonder we're shocked when our image of them is violated. Again, I'm not condoning his mistakes. I want to see positive action, now, and I think this course offers the best chance at that.

There are many jobs, far lower paying than Vick's, which a felony conviction makes difficult to get and for good reason. If Vick were applying to work for any of you special pleaders, how many of you would consider the slate wiped clean?

Again, what clean slate? If it's a clean slate I expect him to do it again, quite frankly. It's on record and it's probably on his mind. Other than wholesale cultural amnesia -- that is, hyperbole-- what are you really talking about?


AMC

[Jcomp]

I have no problem with Michael Vick getting on with his life past this twisted shit. I doubt he'll do that again and time will tell if the dog-torture was simply a lapse of empathy that is walled off by the species border. Here's hoping.

But I think his slot in the NFL roster should be forfeit for the reason I cited in the first Michael Vick thread.

On the Dimaggio thing though, it's really about the Yankees organization more so than the league, and that's sort of how the Vick thing played out. While Joe allegedly was almost kicked off the team for not being friendly enough, Ty Cobb beat up a fan guy with no hands in full view of a stadium full of spectators. The league briefly suspended him and his teammates went on strike the next game.

It's weird the way stuff is nowadays, because we like to imagine this time when our athletes were better and more well-behaved when really there was just a time when every move they made and every thing they did wasn't out there for the whole world to see all the time. It doesn't excuse the behavior but we have this tendency to look at what's going on today and say it's so much worse than before when really we just knew less.

Because even Joe Dimaggio was alleged to have gotten violent with Marilyn Monroe. Did he really? Who can say, but whereas back then such rumors weren't on a million websites at once and instead often only came to light in biographies after the persons in question were departed, nowadays we're supersaturated with details, speculation and conjecture to the point that rumor becomes fact and conjecture becomes condemnation at the speed of "send."

[AMCrenshaw]

^ (Not to mention alcoholism and rampant coke-addiction.)

[dgiharris]

So BoP,

You see dog fighters as evil socio-paths. That is a possibility. However, I just do not see that as an absolute or even as highly probable.


So I ask the question, are people who torture bugs socio-paths? Are little boys who stick firecrackers in the butts of lizards socio-paths? Are hunters socio-paths? Do people who fish, are they socio-paths? Are people who watch the Discovery channel and the subsequent animal on animal killings socio-paths?

There is a whole subsection of human behavior that is deemed acceptable due to the status of our superiority to lower life forms.

Take Mexico/Spain and the Bull Fights. You have a stadium of 30,000 people 'cheering' the slow methodical death of a Bull. In much of the world, cock fighting and dog fighting are acceptable practices. In Asia, a popular sport is to pit a mangoose against a cobra and bet who wins...

So your charge that people in America who 'dog fight' are immoral socio-paths is not congruent to normal human behavior as demonstrated by fellow human beings around the world.

For the record, I do like dogs. But as much as I like dogs, they are not human. Since they are not human, human rules do not apply. However, as a society in this country we have decided to make dog fighting illegal. I don't really have any qualms against the law and am o.k. with it. But at the same time, I do not see people who dog fight as socio-paths for the reasons I cited above. In my mind, it is equivalent to being a hunter. Another thing I'm not a big fan of by the way. But that is me.

And as hard as it is for you to believe, I do love dogs, have had one since I was a kid.

Mel...

[dgiharris]

I don't think Vick should sit in jail forever, no, but I think felons--not just those convicted of crimes against dogs, but felons in general--shouldn't be allowed back in the NFL. I realize there is precedent for this in professional sports, and I'm inviting a series of posts about blablabla throwing arm has nothing to do with character blablabla being nice bla doesn't mean you can't win games. But considering that our culture does everything but fellate high profile athletes, and the adoration with which many kids regard them, I think acceptance of this kind of thing is an indictment of the game, the owners, and the fans.

There are many jobs, far lower paying than Vick's, which a felony conviction makes difficult to get and for good reason. If Vick were applying to work for any of you special pleaders, how many of you would consider the slate wiped clean?

I do not understand this argument?

The only job that a Felon SHOULD NOT be entitled to is a job in which the safety and security of the public is directly impacted by his performance.

Thus, a felon shouldn't be in a job where he handles a gun and directly in charge of security, or has access to classified information, abnormally dangerous substances, etc. etc.

Otherwise, a job is a job. Just because one job PAYS millions of dollars is completely irrelevant.

Essentially, your argument is that felons shouldn't get an opportunity to do any job that pays millions?

So if a felon is a writer, he shouldn't be allowed to write because he 'may' become a millionaire from writing? Or if a felon was an actor he should be banned from Hollywood?

THe NFL is a business. It is a highly visible business, but a business nonetheless. America is a free country. And felons have served their time and paid their debt to society. So I don't see the moral conundrum here.

Mel...

[Bird of Prey]

So BoP,

You see dog fighters as evil socio-paths. That is a possibility. However, I just do not see that as an absolute or even as highly probable.


So I ask the question, are people who torture bugs socio-paths? Are little boys who stick firecrackers in the butts of lizards socio-paths? Are hunters socio-paths? Do people who fish, are they socio-paths? Are people who watch the Discovery channel and the subsequent animal on animal killings socio-paths?

There is a whole subsection of human behavior that is deemed acceptable due to the status of our superiority to lower life forms.

Take Mexico/Spain and the Bull Fights. You have a stadium of 30,000 people 'cheering' the slow methodical death of a Bull. In much of the world, cock fighting and dog fighting are acceptable practices. In Asia, a popular sport is to pit a mangoose against a cobra and bet who wins...


Mel...

I don't know how you can compare what Vick did to any of the above. He tortured the dogs to death that didn't perform to his satisfaction. Please stop considering his disgusting little pastime "merely" DOG FIGHTING.

[Jcomp]

I don't know how you can compare what Vick did to any of the above. He tortured the dogs to death that didn't perform to his satisfaction. Please stop considering his disgusting little pastime "merely" DOG FIGHTING.

You can definitely compare it to bullfighting. That shit's equally disturbing. Bulls are getting slowly stabbed to death for the thrill of a stadium full of people.

[dgiharris]

You can definitely compare it to bullfighting. That shit's equally disturbing. Bulls are getting slowly stabbed to death for the thrill of a stadium full of people.

Yeah, I was wondering how BoP's fixation enables him to not see the blatantly obvious. Bullfighting is EXTREMELY comparable to dog fighting.

Death by exhaustion and being slowly stabbed to death is pretty cruel IMHO.

I don't know how you can compare what Vick did to any of the above. He tortured the dogs to death that didn't perform to his satisfaction. Please stop considering his disgusting little pastime "merely" DOG FIGHTING.

For the purpose of debate, I was very articulate of going point by point with my logic. I take the nature of this refutation as proof that my points are valid, since you do not address the many logical points I made, but rather try to be dismissive.

Now you are dragging the argument away from dog fighting (which I take as acknowledging that dog fighting is not socio-pathically immoral) to Vick torturing dogs.

Now this is a much better argument. I would state that Vick's torturing of dogs was in the context of dog fighting. Similarly, many of my arguments still apply, namely the subset of human behavior that is deemed acceptable due to our superiority over animals.

Again, I do not feel it is 'right' and it is illegal as far as our laws go. But based on my arguments above this does NOT make him a socio-path.

What would make him a socio-path? Well, in my mind, it depends on the extent and context of his behavior and your charge that he 'tortured dogs'.

Do we know how many dogs he tortured? What was the nature and context of the tortures? What was his relationships with the dogs he tortured? What kinds of tortures did he perform? Were the tortures in the context of dog fighting? Were the tortures related to dog fighting or completely separate?

Mel...

[Perks]

... but whereas back then such rumors weren't on a million websites at once and instead often only came to light in biographies after the persons in question were departed, nowadays we're supersaturated with details, speculation and conjecture to the point that rumor becomes fact and conjecture becomes condemnation at the speed of "send."I don't disagree with you, Jcomp. But it is what it is. Michael Vick was deeply and manually involved in dog-torture. What exactly happened, we don't know. (Most of us would likely not wish to.) This is what he's known for now.

I feel the same way about him coming back to the NFL as I did when they didn't boot Randy Moss for his shitty attitude.

I think these positions should go to people who can play the game and who can also manage to not get caught out being utter assholes. There's something to be said for cleverness and subtlety in keeping your Mr. Hyde, well, hidden.

[Diana Hignutt]

If you want to get lawyerly and knitpick the specifics of my point and say, "Well, you know technically he hasn't been completely punished because he still has X hours of community service" I guess you can do that and get a warm fuzzy from being right from that aspect.

Mel...

Yeah, in honestly, that.

But, I have changed my mind, and I'm on your side now. But, I respect people's right to not forgive him.

[Diana Hignutt]

he's playing tonight... i heard the (b)eagles fans are throwing dog feces.

I watched the game. The fans give Vick a standing ovation when he stepped out onto the field. He went 4 for 4, for small yardage.

[Jcomp]

....keeping your Mr. Hyde, well, hidden.

Ahhhhh, I see what you did there...

[Perks]

Ahhhhh, I see what you did there...tell me you love me.

[Ken]

... the difference between bull fighting and 'dog fighting' is that in the former the toreadors stand a chance of getting hurt or killed which at least shows that they've got guts, unlike the sissies who vicariously battle dogs. Let one of those dogs turn towards the stands for a moment and you'd most likely see the whole lot of them dashing for the exit and seeking their mama's skirt tails.

[Bird of Prey]

You can definitely compare it to bullfighting. That shit's equally disturbing. Bulls are getting slowly stabbed to death for the thrill of a stadium full of people.


I'm well aware, but there are two components that you are ignoring in trying to make your correlation. First is "arm's length." As with boxing, the spectators are not actually engaged in striking the individuals. Rather, they are "rooting" for their pick and probably vicariously experiencing defeat or triumph, possibly venting frustration or anger that they could not normally - within the lawful confines of their lives - be able to do. Secondly, you are ignoring mob mentality, which of course plays a crucial role in the heightened excitement of watching violence and rooting for the combatants.

Now, neither of those two components were there when Michael Vick tortured dogs to death. It wasn't arm's length and it wasn't mob mentality. It was sadism, pure and simple. He enjoyed personally inflicting agony. There was no combat, no bets, no cheering for the victor. He is a sadist. Understand?

Now, all arena sports that use animals to satisfy blood lust are disgusting by any measure, but that is not the culture of the United States of America, and it really isn't Spain's either. (http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1655075,00.html) In 2007, 72 percent of Spaniards polled had no interest in it. Major Spanish cities are priding themselves on being "anti-bullfighting" cities. Bullfighting is an ancient holdover of brutality, a colorful display of the ultimate in cowardice. Most Spaniards would agree. I should know.

Cockfighting is another pathetic display of bloodlust, but again, it has little to do with Vick's particular brand of torment and torture which was the involvement and delight in personally inflicting the pain.

[Diana Hignutt]

Michael Vick is now in the position to do more good for dogs than almost anyone in the history of the world. He is in a position to make a huge difference in battling dog fighting and animal cruelty. I say we give him a chance.

[Diana Hignutt]

... the difference between bull fighting and 'dog fighting' is that in the former the toreadors stand a chance of getting hurt or killed which at least shows that they've got guts, unlike the sissies who vicariously battle dogs. Let one of those dogs turn towards the stands for a moment and you'd most likely see the whole lot of them dashing for the exit and seeking their mama's skirt tails.

I think they drug the bulls most of the time. It is very rare for the bull to win.

[Jcomp]

I'm well aware, but there are two components that you are ignoring in trying to make your correlation. First is "arm's length." As with boxing, the spectators are not actually engaged in striking the individuals. Rather, they are "rooting" for their pick and probably vicariously experiencing defeat or triumph, possibly venting frustration or anger that they could not normally - within the lawful confines of their lives - be able to do. Secondly, you are ignoring mob mentality, which of course plays a crucial role in the heightened excitement of watching violence and rooting for the combatants.

The bullfighter(s) are certainly not at "arm's length" when they're skewering bulls for the enjoyment of the crowd. I wasn't really speaking about the crowd so much as the actual "combatant" stabbing the bull to death. And I give a damn about mob mentality. You can always step away. When people got caught smiling for the camera during a lynching in the "good ol' days" no decent person would excuse their delight in the death of another person on account of mob mentality. Wrong is wrong. Brutality is brutality.


Now, neither of those two components were there when Michael Vick tortured dogs to death. It wasn't arm's length and it wasn't mob mentality. It was sadism, pure and simple. He enjoyed personally inflicting agony. There was no combat, no bets, no cheering for the victor. He is a sadist. Understand?

There's no element of sadism in watching or participating in having a generally bull get stabbed to death for entertainment? How? Would you watch a bullfight? I wouldn't. Seems pretty fucked up to me. I don't care what crowd I'm with, I'm my own man. Just like I wouldn't have openly cheered Mike last night regardless of who I'm with. Anybody using "mob mentality" to excuse such behavior is falling on a crutch.


Now, all arena sports that use animals to satisfy blood lust are disgusting by any measure, but that is not the culture of the United States of America, and it really isn't Spain's either. (http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1655075,00.html) In 2007, 72 percent of Spaniards polled had no interest in it. Major Spanish cities are priding themselves on being "anti-bullfighting" cities. Bullfighting is an ancient holdover of brutality, a colorful display of the ultimate in cowardice. Most Spaniards would agree. I should know.

I don't really see how the percentages plays into this discussion one way or another. Most Americans would agree that dog-fighting is brutal, disgusting event as well.


Cockfighting is another pathetic display of bloodlust, but again, it has little to do with Vick's particular brand of torment and torture which was personal involvement and delight in personally inflicting the pain.

So now we're splitting hairs over the degree of sadism and whether or not the cultural influence has a part to play? A hint of sadism is acceptable if tempered by the mob mentality influence but "pure & simple" sadism that doesn't have you at arm's length is unacceptable? How can we ever know when those who engage in it at arm's length are going to want to get off the sidelines and into the game--so to speak? Who determines where this imaginary line is drawn?

[Jcomp]

... the difference between bull fighting and 'dog fighting' is that in the former the toreadors stand a chance of getting hurt or killed which at least shows that they've got guts, unlike the sissies who vicariously battle dogs. Let one of those dogs turn towards the stands for a moment and you'd most likely see the whole lot of them dashing for the exit and seeking their mama's skirt tails.

"Guts" schmuts. I doubt it matters to the carved up, woefully outnumbered bull that it has a relatively slim chance of killing the matador first in a blood sport it didn't elect to be in.

[dgiharris]

... the difference between bull fighting and 'dog fighting' is that in the former the toreadors stand a chance of getting hurt or killed which at least shows that they've got guts, unlike the sissies who vicariously battle dogs. Let one of those dogs turn towards the stands for a moment and you'd most likely see the whole lot of them dashing for the exit and seeking their mama's skirt tails.

Yes, bullfighting and dogfighting have their differences. That goes without saying, my point was simply that there is a whole subset of human behavior predicated on our superiority to animals.

Michael Vick is now in the position to do more good for dogs than almost anyone in the history of the world. He is in a position to make a huge difference in battling dog fighting and animal cruelty. I say we give him a chance.

This is a very astute observation. In all honesty, the biggest proponents of something are those who were victims and or perpetrators that were caught and showed (or forced into) the light.

Also, Vick has brought an 'awareness' to this bloodsport that has long been a shady underground venture.

For what it's worth. I do hope Vick is sincere in his repudiation of dogfighting and I hope he does do some good in dissuading people from doing it.

I know it's big in the South and some Urban areas up north. Time will tell.

But for all my arguments, I can understand the emotion involved in something like this.

This is an emotional topic, especially for those who love dogs.

Mel...

[Ken]

... just for the record, I'm all for giving people second chances. I think people have to re-earn respect, though, even after doing time and not be embraced right away as if they'd just got back from a vacation or something. So hopefully, this football player has learned his lesson and will make good and carry out his promises.

[Bird of Prey]

I think they drug the bulls most of the time. It is very rare for the bull to win.

They sever the tendons or muscle in the neck of the bull so he cannot raise his head. Otherwise the matador wouldn't stand a prayer. It's all cowardice and cheating, a pathetic display. . . .

[dgiharris]

They sever the tendons or muscle in the neck of the bull so he cannot raise his head. Otherwise the matador wouldn't stand a prayer. It's all cowardice and cheating, a pathetic display. . . .

Actually, in all fairness, my understanding is that they just run the bull raged prior to the fight.

No drugging, no severing tendons that i'm aware of.

Saw a special on it once, a long time ago.

Mel...

[Bird of Prey]

Actually, in all fairness, my understanding is that they just run the bull raged prior to the fight.

No drugging, no severing tendons that i'm aware of.

Mel...

You can take it to the bank. I'm about as Spaniard as an American can get. He can't raise his head. That's what all that stabbing is all about prior to the big weenie spectacle. Regardless, if you got any more cowardly than a matador or his cheering spectators, you'd be A tick slinking out from the mud to find the warm blood of an innocent victim. . . . .

[Bird of Prey]

The bullfighter(s) are certainly not at "arm's length" when they're skewering bulls for the enjoyment of the crowd. I wasn't really speaking about the crowd so much as the actual "combatant" stabbing the bull to death. And I give a damn about mob mentality. You can always step away. When people got caught smiling for the camera during a lynching in the "good ol' days" no decent person would excuse their delight in the death of another person on account of mob mentality. Wrong is wrong. Brutality is brutality.



There's no element of sadism in watching or participating in having a generally bull get stabbed to death for entertainment? How? Would you watch a bullfight? I wouldn't. Seems pretty fucked up to me. I don't care what crowd I'm with, I'm my own man. Just like I wouldn't have openly cheered Mike last night regardless of who I'm with. Anybody using "mob mentality" to excuse such behavior is falling on a crutch.



I don't really see how the percentages plays into this discussion one way or another. Most Americans would agree that dog-fighting is brutal, disgusting event as well.



So now we're splitting hairs over the degree of sadism and whether or not the cultural influence has a part to play? A hint of sadism is acceptable if tempered by the mob mentality influence but "pure & simple" sadism that doesn't have you at arm's length is unacceptable? How can we ever know when those who engage in it at arm's length are going to want to get off the sidelines and into the game--so to speak? Who determines where this imaginary line is drawn?

I don't think you quite understand that Mr. Vick - and that's who we're talking about - already crossed the imaginary line that - by your own admission - Americans find "brutal and disgusting. . . . "

Secondly, bullfight is disgusting. I already said so but you're trying to manipulate the conversation to qualify it into something I said it wasn't in order to exempt Vick. Shame on you. The fact is, it's on its way out in Spain as so stated. Secondly, you keep trying to ignore the fact that Vick single-handedly tortured to death dogs because he liked to, no mob or money involved. You're not going to side step or bullshit your way out of that, JComp. It's worse than any spectator sport because he was HANDs ON, MOTIVATED WITHOUT ANY HELP, the quintessential SADIST.

[benbradley]

I don't think you quite understand that Mr. Vick - and that's who we're talking about - already crossed the imaginary line that - by your own admission - Americans find "brutal and disgusting. . . . "

Secondly, bullfight is disgusting. I already said so but you're trying to manipulate the conversation to qualify it into something I said it wasn't in order to exempt Vick. Shame on you. The fact is, it's on its way out in Spain as so stated. Secondly, you keep trying to ignore the fact that Vick single-handedly tortured to death dogs because he liked to, no mob or money involved. You're not going to side step or bullshit your way out of that, JComp. It's worse than any spectator sport because he was HANDs ON, MOTIVATED WITHOUT ANY HELP, the quintessential SADIST.
Okay, so animal torture is not as bad if it's only done for fame and fortune...

[dgiharris]

... Secondly, you keep trying to ignore the fact that Vick single-handedly tortured to death dogs because he liked to, no mob or money involved. You're not going to side step or bullshit your way out of that, JComp. It's worse than any spectator sport because he was HANDs ON, MOTIVATED WITHOUT ANY HELP, the quintessential SADIST.

Ummm... I don't recall anything in JComp's posts that indicates he supports Vicks rights to torture dogs for fun or that he is ignoring that fact.

The only thing I see is that many on this thread have made the case that the man has been punished and that should be the end of it.

that is hardly the same as the words that you keep putting in our mouths.

If anything, your point is simple: no amount of punishment or retribution from Vick, is enough. Period. And anyone who feels otherwise is a dog torturing celebrity loving immoral bastard that has no soul.

that is the main gist of this thread.

There are those who feel that once punishment has been metted out, you are square with the house.

And there are those who feel that the punishment was not enough and should be extended into perpetuity and continue forever until Vick is penniless and homeless.

And there are arguments that fall in between those two points.

nothing in JComp's posts indicates what you keep trying to 'spin' as his points. Though I do admire your zealtry and imagination in twisting statements and ignoring the points and posts of others.

Mel...

[Bird of Prey]

Okay, so animal torture is not as bad if it's only done for fame and fortune...

Nice try. Really. You couldn't be more laughably dishonest. . . .

[Bird of Prey]

Ummm... I don't recall anything in JComp's posts that indicates he supports Vicks rights to torture dogs for fun or that he is ignoring that fact.

The only thing I see is that many on this thread have made the case that the man has been punished and that should be the end of it.

that is hardly the same as the words that you keep putting in our mouths.

If anything, your point is simple: no amount of punishment or retribution from Vick, is enough. Period. And anyone who feels otherwise is a dog torturing celebrity loving immoral bastard that has no soul.

that is the main gist of this thread.




How bout you listen for a change instead of constructing elaborate straw men to suit your conscience??

[dgiharris]

Okay, so animal torture is not as bad if it's only done for fame and fortune...

BoP, keeps contaminating the argument with Vick's fame and fortune.

For some reason, some of us just really really really hate celebrities, especially athletes.

Those emotions and that fact keep creeping, twisting, winding its way into this discussion when for the most part, most of our arguments have nothing to do with Vick being a celebrity.

But for those that are 'anti-celebrity' , they keep falling back on Vick's celebritism.

if anything, his celebritism has hurt him. If he was just an unknown rich person he could have easily paid his way out of this mess. Similarly, if he wasn't rich but could afford a decent lawyer, he could have gotten out of this mess with very little damage. But the fact that it's a sports celebrity. Now, you have a DA's wet dream. You get to set an example AND make national headlines!!!

Mel...

[dgiharris]

How bout you listen for a change instead of constructing elaborate straw men to suit your conscience??

Wow, you read my mind BoP.

Well said.

Mel...

[Bird of Prey]

BoP, keeps contaminating the argument with Vick's fame and fortune.

For some reason, some of us just really really really hate celebrities, especially athletes.

Mel...

Wow. What a bold faced lie!! Now that's a shocker. I didn't realize ol Mel was capable of that. . . .

[escritora]

From my understanding, BoP believes Vick is a sociopath who tortured dogs beyond the dog fighting incidences. Therefore, she would have liked Vick to be put under psychiatric evaluation and be released only when it is determined he is not a danger to society.

I'm having difficulty deciphering why her position is controversial.

[robeiae]

Arbiter/

Everyone:

Lets ease back the throttle on the "shame on you" and "you're a liar" kind of sound bites, please. A lock is likely only moments away, I am sure.

/Arbiter

[dgiharris]

From my understanding, BoP believes Vick is a sociopath who tortured dogs beyond the dog fighting incidences. Therefore, she would have liked Vick to be put under psychiatric evaluation and be released only when it is determined he is not a danger to society.

I'm having difficulty deciphering why her position is controversial.

That is a fair argument, thanks for deconvoluting it. I thought I addressed it many posts ago though. Regardless, this discussion has run its course with me.

Mel...

[nighttimer]

I don't think Vick should sit in jail forever, no, but I think felons--not just those convicted of crimes against dogs, but felons in general--shouldn't be allowed back in the NFL. I realize there is precedent for this in professional sports, and I'm inviting a series of posts about blablabla throwing arm has nothing to do with character blablabla being nice bla doesn't mean you can't win games. But considering that our culture does everything but fellate high profile athletes, and the adoration with which many kids regard them, I think acceptance of this kind of thing is an indictment of the game, the owners, and the fans.

What you're losing sight of is Vick doesn't have a clear and free pass back into the NFL. Depending on what Commissioner Roger Goodell rules, Vick can't play in the regular season until the sixth game of the season. It's expected Goodell will waive that restriction allowing Vick to play immediately, but even then Vick will still have to satisfy the league, the team and the Humane Society that he is engaging in efforts to eliminate dog-fighting.

It's not the shrill whining of the publicitiy craving whores of PETA or the lynch mob mentality of the self-righteous fanatics that are going to boot Vick out of the the NFL. His own actions or lack of them will determine how happy this ending is for him.

It's not an "indictment" of the fans, the Eagles or professional football to allow Vick "one shot at a second chance." There is a risk involved but backed with the support of a Tony Dungy, a man who knows intimately what it takes to overcome significant tragedy and obstacles, I trust his judgment a million times over someone who treads in hysteria, character assassination and flat out bullshit.

There are many jobs, far lower paying than Vick's, which a felony conviction makes difficult to get and for good reason. If Vick were applying to work for any of you special pleaders, how many of you would consider the slate wiped clean?

Who said the slate was wiped clean? This isn't about cleaning the slate. This is about giving a convicted felon a chance to both make restitution for his acts and to give them the opportunity to turn their life around.

Society can nurse a grudge against those whom have offended society, but that only increases the chances they will offend again. Deprive a man of legitimate means to take care of his needs and he will resort to illegitimate means.

Who wouldn't?


But, I have changed my mind, and I'm on your side now. But, I respect people's right to not forgive him.

I respect the right of people not to forgive Vick. What I do not respect are people who believe the life of a dog holds more value than the life of a human being.

I do not respect people who throw their superior morality into your face then get their ass on their shoulder if you're not as outraged as they are.

[BarkingPup]

Hmmm... I did explain in my post why Vick would feel he needed to torture the dogs, basic psychology really, but maybe no one read it? I seem to be quite invisible... I shall back away now -slowly-

Oh, heck with it.

Vick saw the dogs as commodities that made him money or garnered him fame. When the commodity did not do as he asked it do he eliminated it. And, well, perhaps he was angry at the creature so he tortured it a bit. To him, they were not living, breathing creatures. In a society of redirected anger it probably felt quite good to release it on the actual object of your frustration. And that's exactly what they were; objects.

It hardly makes him a sociopath. Sociopaths habitually believe that the consequences will not touch them (traditionally, they're very arrogant) but they are aware of the consequences. Vick, more than likely, was not as he probably learned dog fighting from a mentor when he was young. In his world, dog fighting was normal and he treated them as he was taught.

[Ol' Fashioned Girl]

I respect the right of people not to forgive Vick. What I do not respect are people who believe the life of a dog holds more value than the life of a human being.

The life of a dog holds no more value than the life of a human being... and no less. But I confess, in cases where the two come into conflict, I lean more toward the side of the dog.

[escritora]

It hardly makes him a sociopath. Sociopaths habitually believe that the consequences will not touch them (traditionally, they're very arrogant) but they are aware of the consequences. Vick, more than likely, was not as he probably learned dog fighting from a mentor when he was young. In his world, dog fighting was normal and he treated them as he was taught.

I'm not an expert in sociopaths so I'm not sure your definition is accurate. For argument sake, let's agree that it is on target. Vick knew there are consequences to dog fighting. To say he didn't leaves me baffled. To run a dog fighting ring one has to do it on the down low. It's not an open sport where fliers and radio and tv spots are used as a medium to attract spectators. Vick knew it was illegal and if caught there would be consequences. Nothing in his actions prove otherwise.

[MoonWriter]

The life of a dog holds no more value than the life of a human being... and no less. But I confess, in cases where the two come into conflict, I lean more toward the side of the dog.

Sometimes the two are one in the same.

(long post - read only if you have absolutely nothing else to do. :) )

Nick, my sister's husband, was a decorated Vietnam Veteran - having won some award for saving the small crew of another riverboat. He cared about his men, and his men loved him. At the risk of court martial, he escorted several USO members upriver to perform for his men who were unable to make the regularly scheduled performance and who were suffering from low morale. He knew how to provide - both for his men and his family, but he didn't know how to show love any other way. After several tours, he finished out his career with the navy. Some of his work is now employed in ship-to-ship communication. But the expert on communication rarely expressed his thoughts or feelings at home. To me, he seemed cold, living in a world of his own. Can't say I blame him after his experiences in Vietnam and the highly secretive nature of his work. Just wish he would have been a warm pillow for my sister.

A few years back, Nick died from cancer. Although they had retired in Virginia Beach, Nick's heart was still in New Orleans, where he and my sister grew up, met, and married. He wanted to be buried in his family's tomb (above ground structures in N.O. due to the high groundwater level).

As the gathering after the funeral wound down and only a handful of close family members remained, I sat at the table with my sister Sydney and my other sisters. She asked about Redd, my beloved golden who had succumbed to cancer but predeceased Nick by a month. Without thinking, I explained his final days in graphic detail. My sister excused herself and went to the bathroom. One of my other four sisters explained what I had done and told me to go talk to Sydney. Embarrassed by my faux pas, I left to find Syd. I apologized for my insensitivity, then, when she had calmed down, added, "At least you didn't lose a dog." She laughed, so I pushed my luck, saying, "Actually, he was a dog. I'm so sorry for you loss. I now know the pain you must be feeling." She pee'd her pants.

[robeiae]

"Sociopath" is used far too easily to tag people, imo.

Imo, Vick actions here--in and of themselves--do not make him a sociopath.

Lookee: http://www.medterms.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=39219

It's possible that Vick could be such. So could we all. But we're not in his head and we're not basing our opinions on direct contact with him and close personal knowledge of him.

Now, I do know people that know Vick. He's from my hometown. And the story I get--fwiw--is that Vick tried very hard, though not always successfully, to keep out of trouble and to disassociate himself with certain elements that were around him. In contrast, his brother--Marcus--did not.

In my mind, he's made some stupid mistakes, he's broken laws, and he's been absolutely cruel to dogs. And I think he should have been punished. He was. And I think--if it was my decision to make--I would have barred him from the NFL and/or I would never have hired him. But not because I wanted to punish him further, but because I don't think the postives outweigh the negatives, from a PR standpoint. Vick has no right to play football for money. It's up to the league and the team owners. But they've made their decision and there's nothing inherently wrong about it. I just disagree.

That said, I hope Vick stays out of trouble and learns from this. And I hope he is allowed to live a productive life.

[cray]

In my mind, he's made some stupid mistakes, he's broken laws, and he's been absolutely cruel to dogs. And I think he should have been punished. He was. And I think--if it was my decision to make--I would have barred him from the NFL and/or I would never have hired him. But not because I wanted to punish him further, but because I don't think the postives outweigh the negatives, from a PR standpoint. Vick has no right to play football for money. It's up to the league and the team owners. But they've made their decision and there's nothing inherently wrong about it. I just disagree.

That said, I hope Vick stays out of trouble and learns from this. And I hope he is allowed to live a productive life.


i'd agree with the above.
but it would be an odd place to start (with vick, that is).
just about every team has their share of guys who have committed equal or worse crimes (in the eyes of the law).

[robeiae]

I'm not speaking to you.

And there are plenty of folks that I--personally--would boot from the league, if it were my call to make. But alas, 'tis not.

[Perks]

In my mind, he's made some stupid mistakes, he's broken laws, and he's been absolutely cruel to dogs. And I think he should have been punished. He was. And I think--if it was my decision to make--I would have barred him from the NFL and/or I would never have hired him. But not because I wanted to punish him further, but because I don't think the postives outweigh the negatives, from a PR standpoint. Vick has no right to play football for money. It's up to the league and the team owners. But they've made their decision and there's nothing inherently wrong about it. I just disagree.

That said, I hope Vick stays out of trouble and learns from this. And I hope he is allowed to live a productive life.

Sometimes I agree with you so much that a rep point just won't do.

All the other times I just want to kill you.

[Don]

Dammit, rob. This reasonable bull$hit has got to stop. You're damned hard to shoot when you're standing on a pedestal.

[mscelina]

It's always so easy for us to sit back in our comfortable living rooms watching the lives of celebrity-type people and passing judgment. Why? Well, basic jealousy to start off with. hell yeah I'm jealous when I see some idiot chick with millions of dollars acitng like an airheaded asshole in front of the paparazzi. I lean back in my middle-class Lazy Boy recliner, watching my not-that-impressive 42 inch LCD flat screen TV and think of how unfair it is that this bimbo gets all that money and does nothing more than behave like a jerk with it. Deserving people should have that money. Deserving people like...me. I'd behave better. I wouldn't do stupid things like get drunk and act like a fool. I wouldn't have a few beers and get behind the wheel of a car. I wouldn't let my friends egg me on to doing something silly--like a kegstand--and I would be horribly surprised when the pictures they took on their cell phone showed up on Facebook...

It's so easy to judge from my middle class security because I'm very well aware that if I did things like that, no one would care.

But if it's Michael Vick (or Paris Hilton or Kurt Cobain) we're made to care. The media throws their misdeeds right up in our faces so that the do-gooders in the world, basking in that middle class base of security known as holier-than-thou, can munch on their Fritos and congratulate themselves that they are much better people than those celebrities.

Let's be frank here: if the leader of the dog-fighting ring had been anyone other than a multi-million dollar paid professional athlete, the sentence would have been much lighter and the man would have been released after he did his time into a world that neither knew or cared about his crimes. Seems to me that perhaps we should extend the same luxury to Michael Vick? The man's done his time, the professional league he belongs to believes that punishment was enough, he's found a new job and is working to rehabilitate himself into society. Why bitch about it? It's done now.

Let's find something else to be holier-than-thou about for a while. Go on--you can do it.

Spread the wealth.

[Perks]

That's a pretty wide brush, there. Damned-near peacock-tail sized.

[mscelina]

*grin*

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i293/isabelle_spurrier/8718peacock_wrk1.jpg

Just spreading the wealth, Perks. Just spreading the wealth.

[Perks]

Spreading something, I guess. Didn't know wealth smelled this bad, though. ;)

[KTC]

i felt like vomiting when i heard that a whole stadium gave him a standing ovation on his first time back on the field. what is wrong with people???!!!! i wish i could zoom in on that crowd and find at least a handful of people giving the finger or booing...that would restore my faith in humanity.

[mscelina]

Spreading something, I guess. Didn't know wealth smelled this bad, though. ;)

Yeah, but it sure is purty.:D

[Rolling Thunder]

i wish i could zoom in on that crowd and find at least a handful of people giving the finger or booing
I'm quite sure there were a few.

[KTC]

I'm quite sure there were a few.

i hope to god there were.

[Perks]

i hope to god there were.Yeah but they were all fat, lazy, holier-than-thou types who scratch away the itch of their own insignificance on the jewel-encrusted hide of the fallen rich and beautiful.

[KTC]

Yeah but they were all fat, lazy, holier-than-thou types who scratch away the itch of their own insignificance on the jewel-encrusted hide of the fallen rich and beautiful.

are you saying that people who show compassion for animals are fat, lazy and holier than thou?

[Perks]

are you saying that people who show compassion for animals are fat, lazy and holier than thou?

Not originally. I was taken to school in post #221.

Before that I was saying that I thought Michael Vick's crime should have lost him his berth on the goodship NFL.

[KTC]

see...for me, money is not an issue. i wouldn't care if he were a street person or the President. he did the no-no. i erase him.

people who do bad things like that should be unemployable. but that's just me. i wish we had an island for people like him.

[mscelina]

Not originally. I was taken to school in post #221.

Before that I was saying that I thought Michael Vick's crime should have lost him his berth on the goodship NFL.

No, you weren't.

*sigh*

I need to check the batteries in the sarcasm meter in this room.

[KTC]

op is for sarcasm. (-;

[Perks]

No, you weren't.

*sigh*

I need to check the batteries in the sarcasm meter in this room.

The sarcasm wasn't directed at people whose opinions registered on the side of the scale that spanned extended negative consequences for Michael Vick?

[KTC]

i'm gonna put my sarcasm decoder ring on for a moment.










ah! there we go. i think now that perks may be in agreement with me on this one.


ring off.

[Lyv]

Some will judge Vick more harshly because he's a celebrity. Some will judge him less harshly because he's a celebrity. And some will judge him as they would anyone else.

I'm in the last category. Though on a personal level it turns my stomach a bit that he got a standing ovation, I wouldn't deny him the chance to play in the NFL. Just as I wouldn't deny anyone who committed his crime and did his time the chance to work again. We seem to expect or even demand that star athletes will be role models. I never understood that.

[Perks]

We seem to expect or even demand that star athletes will be role models. I never understood that.My guess is that it's a wish to distance thuggish behavior from extraordinary reward.

There is still a fundamental desire to equate virtue with success even though we have that regularly disproven in every sector of endeavor.

[Don]

Maybe it's because little kids look up to star athletes as role models, because they're good at something they see them doing on TV all the time, and that carries over to other activities. If MV does it, it must be cool, right, cause he's a star. It's exactly the same reason star endorsements are so valuable to Wheaties.

Adults have an easier time separating those things. Or you'd hope. But then again, Paris Hilton is a star to some.

[AMCrenshaw]

people who do bad things like that should be unemployable.

So they can starve.

[KTC]

So they can starve.

ok. no. i was ranting. i don't want anything bad to happen to him.

[BarkingPup]

I'm not an expert in sociopaths so I'm not sure your definition is accurate. For argument sake, let's agree that it is on target. Vick knew there are consequences to dog fighting. To say he didn't leaves me baffled. To run a dog fighting ring one has to do it on the down low. It's not an open sport where fliers and radio and tv spots are used as a medium to attract spectators. Vick knew it was illegal and if caught there would be consequences. Nothing in his actions prove otherwise.

I, too am not an expert which is why I used the classic psychology 'not a real definite definition'. In fact, my thesis was on DID, not Antisocial behaviour. However, from the sociopathic serial killers I've researched they seemed to all think the law couldn't touch them. Sure, they were careful and the crime was pre-planned but many of them retained their arrogance when in trial -one even took visible pleasure in describing what he did to his victims, in great detail. That particular killer continued on to act that way until he was actually about to be executed, whereupon he seemed to become afraid.

I did not state it as a definite 'he's not a sociopath' just that it seemed unlikely he was one from his actions. Besides, like DID, Schizophrenia and amnesia, Sociopath's have become mediazed and overused so when describing actual symptoms people won't believe it. Of course, I am not a licensed Psychologist nor did I actually evaluate Vick so I'm only speculating.

What I am certain of is that Vick more than likely did not intend to abuse the animals. Classical Conditioning, Mentors, etc. probably caused the abuse and mindset. It is different from someone who breaks into someone's house and microwaves a kitten or a maid who throttles a pet bird for no reason (both are true stories, btw).

Again, my two cents...

[escritora]

BarkingPup,

I went back to your original post because your response seemed to go on a different tangent. Turns out I misread your initial post. I thought you said that sociopaths were not aware of the consequences. When in fact you wrote the exact opposite (post quoted below). My bad.

It hardly makes him a sociopath. Sociopaths habitually believe that the consequences will not touch them (traditionally, they're very arrogant) but they are aware of the consequences. Vick, more than likely, was not as he probably learned dog fighting from a mentor when he was young. In his world, dog fighting was normal and he treated them as he was taught.

[BarkingPup]

BarkingPup,

I went back to your original post because your response seemed to go on a different tangent. Turns out I misread your initial post. I thought you said that sociopaths were not aware of the consequences. When in fact you wrote the exact opposite (post quoted below). My bad.

Nyah, no problem. I'll cease breathing down yer neck now :)

Glad you didn't leap on it and instead went back and reread. As it is; this thread is getting a little out of hand but it's still pretty educational... it might be locked soon, though, considering how many people have crossed the line from debate to flaming. Unless it's kept civilized for a while.

[TerzaRima]

what I do not respect are people who believe the life of a dog holds more value than the life of a human being

Someone always, always trots out this canard in threads about animal abuse--I think the last time was the thread about the cat serial killer. If you think that crimes against animals should be punished severely, then it follows that you must think that animals are more important than people. This doesn't follow. It is not because they are more important, but precisely because they are less important, have almost no rights, and are thus much more vulnerable, than people that these crimes must be taken seriously. This is why Gandhi said that the goodness of a society may be measured by how it treats its animals.

/bunny hugger

[escritora]

Glad you didn't leap on it and instead went back and reread.

Ha. You didn't read the post I scrapped before I posted the pc one. ;)

[BarkingPup]

Ha. You didn't read the post I scrapped before I posted the pc one. ;)

:Shrug: Nope. I suppose it was rather scathing and offended? I'm organising my computer... again so I become distracted... and I forget I have internets up... you know, stuff like that.

Should I be relieved I didn't read it or curious as to what it said...?

[escritora]

Should I be relieved I didn't read it or curious as to what it said...?

I was teasing. There wasn't another post. You read the one and only response.

[nighttimer]

Seemed worthy of a bump.

PHILADELPHIA -- Eagles (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/teams/page/PHI) quarterback Michael Vick, (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/players/playerpage/235253) speaking to a group of Philadelphia high school students Tuesday, warned against the dangers of peer pressure and offered himself as a cautionary tale of what can happen when someone is a follower instead of a leader.


<!-- 300x250 --> The Philadelphia Eagles quarterback, who served prison time for running a dogfighting ring, addressed a rapt audience of 200 freshmen on their first day at Nueva Esperanza Academy, a North Philadelphia charter school. He urged the students to make the right choices and to resist the temptation to follow the crowd.



"I didn't choose to go the right way, which led to 18 months in prison, which was the toughest time of my life," he said. "Being away from my family, being away from my kids who I adore dearly, and being away from the game of football, doing something so foolish, and I wish I could take it all back.



"I was influenced by so many people when I should have been a leader, not a follower."

Speaking without notes, Vick told the hushed assembly Tuesday that his poor decisions imperiled the goals he had set for himself.



"Growing up, I had dreams and I always wanted to have this great, lavish life and make it to the NFL, go and accomplish great things and leave a great legacy. That was my goal from a young kid," Vick said. "My future was promising ... at some point, I got sidetracked. I started listening to my friends and doing some things that were not ethical and not right."

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/story/12175291

Vick's long road back to something resembling respectability continues...

[benbradley]

There's also this news from a week ago, Vick is only suspended for the first two NFL games, instead of the first six games as earlier stated when he was first allowed to come back to the NFL:
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=4442627

I dunno, I don't have any big commentary on this, other than it seems that "leniency happens."