Script consultants, a colossal waste? (your concept is most important)

[JustinoXXV]

I'm going to share my experiences with script consultants with you. I've written 7 screenplays, and had sent them out. After getting rejections, I got some feedback that my main issues were structural and dialouge. So I decided to use a couple of paid script consultants, as well as get free general feedback.

What happened and why do I think script consultants may be a waste?

First of all, I really did get good feedback from them pointing out the specific problems with my dialouge (my characters tended to give out "speeches" and I hadn't given the individual characters different dialouge). And I had a couple of structural problems, such as not developing the protag enough (and using an excess of characters who weren't really necessary).

But my main issue is I think the personal preferences of the consultant himself/herself can totally take over.

After I'd taken what I learned from various people, I rewrote a couple of my scripts. I sent Inferno (gay themed drama) to a couple of people.

One thought my structure and dialog had majorly improved. He just totally trashed my concept, saying that why on earth would I write a screenplay about homosexuals, that it could totally destroy my career, and went off on me.

The other consultant (gay himself) loved it conceptually. He did have issues with a couple of plot points.

One theatre company in NYC that does a lot of gay stuff likes it conceptually and wants to do a reading on and then have me rewrite it as a stageplay.

My point is that I think perhaps the most important thing is whether a PRODUCER subjectively loves your concept AND thinks it can make them money.

If a producer does think highly of your concept, then he or she would be willing to INVEST the money in the development of the script.

If not, there probably is nothing you can do change that. I'[m not saying you shouldn't learn format and structure, because you should. But I do think it's possible that people maybe putting too much efforts into scripts that have really been rejected because the premise wasn't like (which means either the premise was poor and/or it was sent to the wrong people). And also, people may be paying too much attention to supposedly all knowing experts. How did writers like Shakespeare, all the other writers of old books that are considered classics and the writers of older Hollywood movies do with out these people? (sarcasm).

[Joe Calabrese]

Justin, you, like many writers, think there is some magic bullet out there to get sold. There isn't, but consultants can help at least find the target.

Being a "so called" consultant, I can tell you that our job is to look for problems. I don't let personal tastes come into play. Even if I hate the concept, I can still tell you problems with the machanics, dialog, structure, pacing, etc... Even the best concepts may get muddled if not executed correctly.

Even you said that they helped you with your dialog. If you sent the script to a producer who's major pet peeve was bad dialog, you would have gotten trashed right away regardless of concept, but now, because you fixed your dialog, you have reduced that possibility. No producer will spend development money on a newbie's concept, because they have no guarantees the newbie writer will deliver. In fact the opposite. If the script sucks but the concept is good, why spend money on this guy who has shown he couldn't fix it in the first place, or if I buy it outright and get another writer, that's more money and I still don't know if the script will be good when finished. The script is the final blueprint. You can't sell a new house based on a stick drawing on a napkin, but you can with blueprints.

Well it's true that the premise or concept will get interest, it is only the script that will get the sale.

Only established writers with proven track records can sell based on a concept. Of course there have been a few instances where concept sold from a relative newcomer, but they are few and far between. As a newbie, you got to be beyond reproach and have all your t's crossed.

Consultants help put your best foot forward, but we are not gonna walk for you.

As for the old, Hollywood writers, they were studio writers who worked side by side with other writers in one office. They bounced pages and mentored each other, with most of the time the senior staff writers helping out the newbies. Of course, the studio heads and producers also told them what to do too.

Shakespeare learned his craft and got most of his ideas for plays from the school in Stattford he went to. His teacher was his consultant of sorts, since the requred reading gave him ideas for plots and characters which came from Ovid's tales, the plays of Terence and Plautus, and Roman history.

[IWrite]

Being a "so called" consultant, I can tell you that our job is to look for problems. I don't let personal tastes come into play. Even if I hate the concept, I can still tell you problems with the machanics, dialog, structure, pacing, etc... Even the best concepts may get muddled if not executed correctly.
I totally agree with Joe here. A good consultant will put aside his personal likes and dislikes and focus on what works and what doesn't work. Like with any profession their are all levels of quality - from ab fab to those committing malpractice.

I'd be extremely wary of consultants that charge less than a couple hundred for notes. To read a script and write up even short notes can take a minimum of three or four hours - more detailed notes take substantially longer. If a consultant is charging say, $50 they are pulling down somewhere in the neighborhood of $12 an hour. A consultant by definition is an expert. Anyone who deems himself to be an expert in any field, especially a creative one - is providing their expertise, which should have a higher value than the hourly wage of your average receptionist. I would seriously question the qualifications of anyone charging so little.

I would think twice before signing on for any consulting service where all communication is done via the web. The most useful consultations include some conversation (either in person or on phone) to review and discuss the notes and answer any questions. You should always try to speak with the consultant prior to hiring them. You can find out a lot and get a good sense of someone in a coversation.

Consultants help put your best foot forward, but we are not gonna walk for you.
Again true.

In the end, a script can only be as a good as the writer who wrote it. A consultant, teacher, seminar etc. can only do so much. If a writer is lacking the chops that's pretty much all she wrote regardless of how much education or guidance one receives.

[NikeeGoddess]

no comparison between concept and consultant - it's like comparing apples to oranges.

concept is important when it comes to marketing. every producer is looking for what works for them. they may love your writing or your story but, if they're looking for a thriller for the next project then they don't want your romantic comedy* no matter how good it is. so you must find those producers who are looking for what you have to offer. yeah, that's obvious but, it's not easy but, it makes the odds of success that much greater.

*but also keep in mind that if you do have a great story that they don't want they just might have had lunch last week with a producer who IS looking for what you have to offer. or they might say, we love your writing. what else have you got?

[Joe Calabrese]

This is not a "I told you so" speech, so don't take it as such.

I remember a few months back, you asked me to review your work and when I gave you my pricing, you turned me down. No skin off my nose and I didn't force you. I imagine that the consultants you ended up with charged less, so I guess you got what you paid for. But even if you paid a fortune, the people you chose obviously were not the best people for the money spent, since you went away with a bad taste in your mouth.

If you ended up using me, would things have been better? I can't say for sure but I wouldn't have told you a gay script will ruin your career. It didn't for many films or their writers, directors or even actors. Granted, a gay themed film would be a niche' market and probably wouldn't sell to a studio but as an Indy it would be marketable and have potential for a sale to the right producer. That's what I would have said and I would have even pointed you to the types of companies that would be receptive.

That aside, I would have gone over your characters, pacing, dialog, plot and beats with a fine tooth comb and showed you not just what was wrong, but ways to make it better based on the market and producer's expectations, not personal tastes. I would clearly define my personal opinion versus industry facts. Even the best writers may be too close to see the forest from the trees. I would provide an impartial eye to show you things you may know but didn't notice. Sure, you cold use a writer's group or friends who know some stuff about screenwriting, but they unlike myself are not usually willing to give you one, all encompasing report that is easy to understand and provide suggestions for change as well.

The job of a consultant is to be honest but also helpful in taking your work and making it better for a reasonable but realistic price. Like a mechanic, we don't tell you you should have bought a Ford because they are easier to fix or because we hate Chevy, but instead we fix the car you brought them regardless. I wouldn't take a car to a guy who works out of his home's garage and charges 20 bucks to overhaul an engine. If he's that good, he would charge what the market would bear. I also wouldn't take my Italian sports car to a guy would normally fixes Fords either.

Got to love those analogies.

[JustinoXXV]

Joe, neither you nor Iwrite know how much money I paid. I chose the script consultant based on the fact that he is more experienced than youand his stuff has seen distribution. He has done more work film wise than anyone on Absolute Write. He had a spec sale in LA, which you really haven't had. Another one of his movies is soon to be released, and one of his is filming now. So I figured it was better to go with the more experienced person. And also, someone we mutually know swore that he was fantastic. So he was recommended to me.

I do not think there's a magic bullet out there. Nor did I expect that after using a consultant, I would magically be sold.

In fact, the whole purpose of my post on this thread was to say there isn't a magic bullet out there, and to put doubt on people who did.

Back to this experienced person, he was just blatantly honest. He was turned off by the fact I made him review a script that had a concept he found appalling. Concepts do matter, which is why writers must use query letters, synopses, pitches, etc. (in part to show that the script has a concept that makes it worth the production company or agency's time). And he most likely isn't the only person who would flip out if a gay themed script was put on his desk. I'm sure some readers and producers would. And that's okay, only one of my scripts is gay themed anyway.


And a theatre producer, based on the PREMISE of the script, wants to do a staged READING. Something you and IWrite ignored from my post. That gay produced like my CONCEPT enough to want to work with me to develop it (though it would have to be rewritten as a stageplay, and that's a different animal).

My Big Fat Greek Wedding was a one woman staged show which got acclaim, and was made into a movie because certain industry people loved the CONCEPT. They hadn't seen Nia Vardolos's screenwriting at that point. As far as the film world was concerned, she was a total "newbie".

[Joe Calabrese]

As I said, "But even if you paid a fortune, the people you chose obviously were not the best people for the money spent, since you went away with a bad taste in your mouth."

Obviously you were not happy with this expert, regardless of his experience.

Did you email/call this person before sending him the script as you did with me? If so, you should have gotten a good idea on any biases. Even if he wrote and sold a 100 films, if they were all Gosford Park dramas, I wouldn't send him a horror film, not without talking to him first and convincing me he is able to do the job and do it right

Yes, concept is key, without it you have a hard job ahead of you, but you don't use a consultant to check out your concept, but to review the work, the actual script, so that the concept shines brightly along with the words written. A script with a fair to good concept will be marketable if it is compellingly written, but a great concept that is poorly written may not have success because the bad writing would distract or bother the reader so much that the concept would be lost. As for the scenario you presented about gay script and producers/readers, that is why you don't just blindly send out queries to agents and producers, you target the write script to the right people-- the same you should have done with regards to a critique.

I'm just upset that you give blanket statements that have no basis in fact. Your post basically said there is never a need for a consultant or as you said "supposedly all knowing experts." We are not all knowing, but we know a well written script better than most and especially more than a non-produced and unproven writer.

This is not the first time you have done so. In the past, you have flat out told people or strongly implied that:

a) all competitions are scams
b) you must live in LA or NY and
c) Managers are all crooks.

Everything is not as black and white as you present them.

As for the play, congrats, that's good news.

[JustinoXXV]

The person who did the assestment, i had communicated with him numerous times, and he had given me feedback on a prior script that did an excellent job out pointing out things that didn't work. So I figured that it would be okay to send him whatever else I had. And that's how I got my concept trashed.

I did not say there is never a need for a consultant, if you reread my original post, I did say I've benefitted from using them. I did say supposedly all knowing experts because a qualified, produced person whose been consulting for years trashed my concept and then told me that said concept could be a career destroyer. From what I've seen, while said concept probably won't fly with a studio, it does work as an indie film (or even on stage) and people who have written similiar things have not had their careers destroyed.

So no matter how you selected your script consultant or who he or she is, I'm just pointing out that they are people with their own biases. They don't know everything, because no one knows everything. One so called expert could have one opinion on marketability, while other one could have a totally different opinion.

And this has nothing to do with you, Iwrite, etc, because I've never used your services. So I'm certainly not criticising either of you along those lines, because I don't know what you'd be like.

And yes, Joe, everything is not black and white, and that includes my past statements.

Likewise, it's not black and white that the advice given to you by script consultants is necessarily good advice. It's not black and white that they will always be useful. Sometimes yes, other times, no.

And that's true regardless of how good the person's background is, whether you discussed the premise before, whether or not you had lunch before, whatever.

And that's my ultimate point, that people here should take things, even the things "experts" say, with a grain of SALT.

[Joe Calabrese]

So no matter how you selected your script consultant or who he or she is, I'm just pointing out that they are people with their own biases.There you go again with blanket statements. Just because you had someone who trashed your work because of personal bias, you are now grouping all consultants into that box. Sorry, I don't work that way and neither do most professionals. When you first emailed me and wrote: "... A producer is very much interested in one of my scripts, a gay Latin comedy..." IF I hated gay latino comedies or had no knowledge or experience in that genre (comedy), I would have said so and refered you to someone better suited. Even if I didn't like gay films, I could still help you to make the script as strong as it could be. That is what a consultant does.

By the way, your intentions were clear in the title of this thread: "Script consultants, a colossal waste" Sounds like a warning for all to stay away.

[JustinoXXV]

I did say that writers in general should take things with a grain of salt, and I stand by that.

And yes, that is exactly why this thread has the title it has. I seriously doubt that my experience was the first, only, or the last time a script consultant has let his personal bias color his assestment.

Even the critique of an individual element in a screenplay may involve a certain amount of bias. One person may feel that you could do without that steamy love scene, while other person may feel that it should be in there.

In the original post, if you'll note, I said I used more than one CONSULTANT.

On certain things, I got the same feedback, and on other things, I got very different feedback.

I wrote the original post because I think it may be helpful to some writers. They should be aware that consultants have their personal opinions, and that this can color their evaluation of your project.

That isn't a blanket statement. It's a fact. Will the script consultants that other writers here encounter let their biases color their evaluations to the degree that one of the ones I used did? I don't know if they will or if they won't. And neither do you. So therefore, I pointing this out for other writers to keep this in mind.

I think you're taking this way too personally, because I haven't criticized your service. I am telling people to think for themselves, regardless of who they use as script consultant. And you really shouldn't have a problem with that.

[Joe Calabrese]

I don't have a problem with that. Just don't make one bad experience sound like a warning for all to stay away from what is normally a well respected and much appreciated service in the industry.

Many writers, including myself, have created stronger work because of these people's advice. Of course there are good and bad in any profession and you should not take everything anyone says as gospel.

[Boo_Radley]

Joe - I'm looking to submit a screenplay to a consultant for coverage for the first time, and was under the obvious misunderstanding that, basically, you just send off your script and the green to cover the job. But as an experienced consultant, what would be some points you'd go over prior to someone submitting their script for your analysis? Or, what - in your opinion - are some things analysts in general should go over before one submits his/her script to them?

[Joe Calabrese]

Basically get to know him/her.

I would email him/her and ask for a sample.

Send your genre and logline and ask whether or not that is something he/she has desire and/or experience in.

Ask what you can expect from his/her review.

I would also see if there is a discount for resubmission after corrections are made.

One consultant I know will give you a free phone mini-consult first before you decide. He's okay but he's kinda "old school" and doesn't get some genre film, but he does offer great advice on structure.

These people (the ones that care) don't mind answering questions.

[Boo_Radley]

Thanks, Joe! :Thumbs:

[mysteryhost]

He has done more work film wise than anyone on Absolute Write.

hrmmph!

Are you certain your information is accurate?

mh

[Chesher Cat]

Justino,

Since your script's concept/topic is one that carries a lot of emotion - both for and against - why wouldn't you have told the consultant what the subject matter was before submitting it to him? That way you would know if he hada a personal bias before spending your dough.

[JustinoXXV]

Why would it ever have occurred to me to do so?

In all the discussions promoting script consultants anywhere in the internet or in books, you will generally don't see anything brought up about the personal biases of the consultant. If you go to the beginning of the thread, Iwrite and Joe basically said this shouldn't happen (but it does).

As with any business arrangement, no matter what you do to carefully screen something, you never totally know what you will get until you buy it.


But **** happens, and it's over, so that's that. I only brought this up to point to others that should not take advice from ANYONE as the holy grail. You are quite capable of thinking for yourself, doing your own research, reading other scripts, and comparing that to what your consultant is telling you to do. And then make your own assestment on what needs to be changed.

[Joe Calabrese]

"If you go to the beginning of the thread, Iwrite and Joe basically said this shouldn't happen (but it does)."

Not with the good ones and Iwrite and I always say (including the books, articles and such) to check out who (producers, agents, consultants) you send your script to for coverage or to be read for consideration because as with everything in this industry there's good and bad.

[rtilryarms]

hrmmph!

Are you certain your information is accurate?

mh

Actually, I'd like to hear the answer to this question as well.

Justin?

[NikeeGoddess]

a while back creative screenwriting magazine did a large consumer reports article on 24 top consultants. they gave examples with explanations and a cost analysis. anyone wanting to use a consultant should seek out the back issue. it was very comprehensive.

[Joe Calabrese]

How about telling us who this consultant was so we can all be aware not to send our gay themed scripts to him?

[rtilryarms]

How about telling us who this consultant was so we can all be aware not to send our gay themed scripts to him?

most consultants bend over backwards for thier clients. Maybe a gay theme requires a consultant of a different bent.

Just a suggestion

[NikeeGoddess]

yeah, those that bend over frontwards love the gay themed scripts.

[JustinoXXV]

I think it would be very rude to reveal the person's name, Joe. He did give good advice on a previous script. I just didn't like his apparent anti gay bais. To answer a previous question, said consultant has written scripts that were produced and whose movies are out. I don't want to reveal specifics.

My goal isn't to tarnish someone's name, but to suggest that people think critically when they get advice from a consultant and take what he/she says with a grain of salt.

And by the way, this person was highly rated in articles. And of course, I'm not trying to dissuade people who need the services of a consultant from getting one.

I don't think there's any foolproof way of avoiding the scenario I ran into.

[Joe Calabrese]

Oh well. I was wondering if it was someone I knew.I don't think there's any foolproof way of avoiding the scenario I ran into. There is-- talk to them first.

[JustinoXXV]

Joe:

I talked to the person plenty of times. Why do you ignore this?

Not about gay stuff, mind you, but I knew him well enough to think that things were cool.

What happened to me could have happened to anyone, and despite your implication that I did something wrong or this is somehow my fault, I know I did nothing wrong.

[Joe Calabrese]

With all this debating, Justino has brought up a good point, although not stated clearly and delivered in a negative, blanketed way with no room for ammendments.

Consulants or any reviewer for that matter are not God. Take what we say and decide for yourself what to change if any.

We can tell you things about your script which is indisputable, like grammar, formatting, typos, etc...

But when it comes to plot, story, pacing, structure, characters and even concept, we are giving you comments based on experience, established theory, past films, industry trends and perhaps even some as personal opinion.

It is up to you, the one being reviewed, to weight all info given and decide for yourself what to use and what to discount.

We don't expect you to take our word for word changes without question. We point out things to show you how some or many producers/agents/managers may feel when they read the same thing.

If I say "I didn't like a character because he is gay" that's personal opinion, but if I say "Your Bill character doesn't work well because although he's gay, he doesn't live up to audience expectations of what a gay man is in today's society. If you look at the film (and list examples)..." that's a comment worth looking into.

Ultimately you need to say with each comment "That makes sense. Why didn't I see that?"

You, as do both many new and experienced writers, are too close to see it for yourself or lack the experience and knowledge to police yourself effectively.

(here comes an analogy, one that hopefully won't drag Tom Cruise into this debate.)

Just as psychologists do, consultants don't cure your problems, they help you cure yourself by bringing things out in the open.

Above all, feel comfortable in sending your work to anyone. Email them or call them and get a feel for them before you commit, because there are consultants who are great and truly love and care about the work, others who have biases or lack experience in a particular genre, budget realm, etc... and others who just want your money.

[Joe Calabrese]

Justin I am not ignoring anything.

When I say talk I mean each and every time. I wouldn't send my manager something without telling him first. He might say, not interested and keep trying. I wouldn't send anything to anyone without being sure that he/she has the time, the inclination and/or the desire to do it. After all you did email me and asked if I was interested. You didn't just send me the script first.

You didn't do anything wrong, but now you know how to deal with it in the future.