STRICT first person limited point of view

You switched POVs.

What he said. Your question boils down to, "my narrative POV character is engaged in combat, and I decide to show the POV of the enemy fighter pilot. Is the first person limited narrative POV broken?" Or, more simply, "if I switch the POV, do I still have the same POV?" And the answer is, "no."

You can only have him in the scene if you have him go "Holy crap! The plane's diving right at me!" As I understand what you've written, you've switched from first person POV to omnisicent. To consistently stay in first POV you've got to stay in his head at all times. He is the camera lens through which you view his world.

You don't have cameras. If you're doing first person, he can only see what he sees.

You can switch POV but need to do a #, a break, sometimes they're like this:


Then you can be a different POV.

I've had a 3rd person POV watch a house being pushed by a Euclid type truck through a time travel gate. Then # and we're watching the house fall, Omniscient POV as there is no one there, from 6000 feet into the Pacific Ocean. Then # and we're into another scene.

Nothing wrong with it. Yesterday I used the crap out of # when I had a character dying from blood loss, occasionally gaining consciousness but unable to move.

Edited to add: I've also written a scene that overlaps with them.

Betty knows she's going to be shot by the sniper and she has a final talk with Jim. She is shot. # The sniper sets up his equipment, speaking to his commander before taking the shot. He shoots Betty. # Jim's final talk with Betty. She is shot. A black bag goes over Jim's head and he is taken to a van and driven to a cave for interrogation.

It sounds like you may have a misunderstanding about first-person POV. It's not simply that the character is in every scene, but that every sentence must be something that the POV character thinks or senses. Every sentence could (but usually wouldn't, b/c it would be monotonous) include the prefatory phrase, "I saw" or "I heard" or "I thought" or "I felt." The camera is INSIDE the character, not outside, so there is no switch of camera angles.

So, if the "I" character is in a cockpit, and he can't see the other plane, then you can't write something like, "Far away, out of sight, another plane lurked." You COULD say, "All of a sudden, I saw a plane appear, having apparently lurked behind clouds." (or, more simply: "All of a sudden, a plane appeared, ...." since the "I saw" would be implied). Or you could say, "I heard the rumbling of another plane, but couldn't spot it. Perhaps it was out of my line of sight."

One analogy that might help is to imagine the POV to be a camera attached to the top of the narrator's head (with the narrator = first-person character), since it sounds like you're coming from a visual background. That camera can see/hear/record anything that the narrator can observe, and vice versa. So, if the camera is inside the plane with the narrator, it can't see anything obstructed by the plane itself. It can't be looking back toward the tail when the character is looking down at the dials. It can see out the windows, it can see inside the cockpit, it can see inside the character's head (and hear/feel/smell, etc. likewise). But it can't see through metal, it can't see through impossible distance, it can't see through cloud cover, it can't see through mountains, etc. It also can't see itself.

JD

Aren't we missing something?

Francis said:

in a screenplay.

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I know very little about screenplays. Do we even have a narrator in there?

first person limited point of view

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This also puzzles me. What's first person limited? All experience and no thought?

Camerawise, I think first-person-PoV would be - I don't know the technical term - would have the camera sitting in the character's head. The result would be pretty much like ego-shooter games, where you never see the character, but only what he sees. You get this point of view sometimes in chase scenes. I think I remember a Prodigy video shot like that. Blair Witch Project's probably also a variant of this.

But as I said, I know nothing about screenplays. I'm just throwing stuff out there, because I feel that the discussion so far is more about prose.

Heh, well spotted, I'll move the thread into screenwriting discussion forum.

-Derek

Umm, well unless you're directing you should probably forget right now about having a first person POV. That is really the director's call.

First person would look like that shooting scene in DOOM where you see only through his eyes period. But that would be your whole film. I can't think of a single example of an entire film running like that. For one thing, the one person we're supposed to bond with above all else is entirely off camera.

All you can do is write it with that character's slant, forget the camera. If you want his input at every turn, you're going to have to turn him into the narrator which has been done on several films, a recent example is Gone, Baby, Gone. Watch the film, read the script, it might give you an idea on how to handle your script instead of trying to direct it from the page, which is exactly what you're trying to do.

ETA: Want an idea of what your film would look like? Attach a camera to your head and roll.

First person limited POV - I'm thinking like Cloverfield, where the entire movie is from the videocamera's POV, or a good part of The Bell and the Butterfly. So yes, if you zoom up to the fighter plane, your FP POV would be broken.

Is there a reason you must limit yourself this way?

Francis said:

Hi Everyone-

I have a question about STRICT first person limited point of view in a screenplay.

For instance, let's say a story takes place during a war and my narrative POV character is engaged in combat.

Now let's say I decide to show a fighter plane diving and shooting at him from the camera angle POV of the enemy fighter pilot or an enemy tank firing at him from it's camera angle POV. He is still in the shot - so the STRICT first person limited narrative POV is not broken, right?

-Francis

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JanDarby said:

Strict first-person POV. It's not simply that the character is in every scene, but that every sentence must be something that the POV character thinks or senses.

The camera is INSIDE the character, not outside, so there is no switch of camera angles.

One analogy that might help is to imagine the POV to be a camera attached to the top of the narrator's head (with the narrator = first-person character), since it sounds like you're coming from a visual background.

That camera can see/hear/record anything that the narrator can observe, and vice versa.
JD

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Therefore, Francis, you cannot write a shot with the POV character visible in the shot as the plane attacks. We must not see the character even though we know he is in the scene.

The director could use a trick to show the POV character, perhaps the POV character's reflection in the plane's windshield as it swoops over him.

Or you could show the POV character's hand as he points to the attacking plane.

Yeah. It's generally the default because you get to see the characters. Now there's third person God mode where you see everything that everyone is doing, or there's third person limited where it sticks with one or two people, in your case one.

Francis said:

wow this forum is great. the number of helpful answers was unexpected but greatly appreciated.

Yes, I guess I have a misunderstanding of First person POV - and no, I don't want the film to look like a first person shooter game.

I want the main character to be in every scene, but I also want him to be seen from various angles and maybe someone else's POV from time to time. So that would make the narrative POV third person, right?

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If that's the case, I think you are confusing the various narrative techniques of fiction with narrative in a screenplay.

Narrative in a screenplay is always written with the camera in mind. Since the audience sees only what the camera sees we write only what the camera sees.

If in your mind your story is best served by "shooting" a character from various angles, you have to write it that way. It's not a matter of first or third person POV or omniscent POV. It's a matter of implying where the camera is placed to take the shot.

jonpiper said:

If in your mind your story is best served by "shooting" a character from various angles, you have to write it that way. It's not a matter of first or third person POV or omniscent POV. It's a matter of implying where the camera is placed to take the shot.

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First and foremost a screenplay is storytelling. There are times when, for storytelling purposes you need to focus on a specific thing or show something from a particular angle. But if you spend to much of the focus on the specific thing on the screen or the angle that it's seen at you risk losing the thread of the story - and most likely your audience.

Francis said:

wow this forum is great. the number of helpful answers was unexpected but greatly appreciated.

Yes, I guess I have a misunderstanding of First person POV - and no, I don't want the film to look like a first person shooter game.

I want the main character to be in every scene, but I also want him to be seen from various angles and maybe someone else's POV from time to time. So that would make the narrative POV third person, right?

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What I think you're talking about, and the source of the confusion, is the difference between "person" and POV.

A story can be written first person or third person --

I walked in and looked around.

He walked in and looked around.

In the same way, a movie can be shot, more or less, first person or third person -- that is, told from the perspective of a single individual, or from a perspective that has the capacity to go anywhere and show anything.

Or even something that splits the difference, staying mostly with one character but occasionally jumping away to show something that's happening somewhere else.

None of that has to do with the phrase POV, which is a strictly technical term. It means Point of View and refers to what the *camera* sees.

John's POV means that the *camera* is going to show what John would see, at a particular moment, in a particular scene.

That would be something that would only be used, if at all, under very limited and specific circumstances, for technical reasons.

Now, if for some reason, you wish to tell a story strictly in the "first person" then you are simply dealing with a set of conventions, because obviously, people can't see their own faces, but if you're going to shoot a scene, you're going to show the face of your main character. Otherwise, as others have indicated, you're going to end up with a movie that looks like a first-person shooter game.

Not that this hasn't been tried. It has -- in a movie called "Lady in the Lake" -- a detective movie shot back in the fifties -- the whole thing was done with the camera standing in for the main character, with the actual actor only showing up when he looked in a mirror.

It didn't work, for obvious reasons (the most obvious being that a person's face is the main way in which he conveys emotion, and if you can't see an actor's face you don't know what he's feeling or how he's reacting to things -- he literally becomes a cypher, even though he's the main character).

So obviously you're going to have close shots and two shots and reverses and reactions shots and all the rest.

The limiting convention is that you are *not* going to show or describe, in the course of the script or the action, anything that would be *inaccessible* to the main character's mind or senses.

So yes, you show his face and by doing that, reveal the emotions that his face shows -- but those emotions are not hidden from *him* -- they are only hidden from us, if you fail to show us his face.

What you don't show is the bomb under the table that he doesn't know about -- or the spider crawling up his back that he doesn't see or feel -- or the POV from the building across the street from the sniper that he doesn't know about.

Not that there's any hard and fast rule about it. You can do all of those things.

It's just that you can't do those things and hold to this rule that you seem to want to hold to -- which is to limit yourself strictly to first person.

That's the guide. What does your character know? What is he aware of? What does he hear and see?

That is what defines what you can show -- and since he is aware of his own feelings, as revealed by his expressions -- there's no problem with describing what his expressions are (but since this is a movie, it's never okay to describe something that a character feels, but doesn't show -- because, after all, how would an audience ever know anything about it?).

NMS

Francis, I'd like to expand on what we've all discussed, because I think this subject illustrates the subtle difference between screenwriting and novel writing.

The Sunset Boulevard screenplay http://www.imsdb.com/scripts/Sunset-Blvd..html is an example of a screenplay written in first person. But screenplay first person is different than novel first person. Screenplays and novels differ in the way the narrative (action and description) is written.

In a first person novel the whole story, including the narrative and narration, is written in first person: I pick up the gun. I aim it, etc.

In the Sunset Boulevard screenplay, Joe Gillis is the protagonist, however the narrative concerning his actions is written in third person: Gillis picks up the gun. He aims it. And when he speaks, the dialogue heading is written GILLIS. Although this is a first person screenplay, Gillis is visible in most scenes, and the scenes are not shot strictly from his POV.


But Gillis is also the narrator in the screenplay. Gillis is a first person narrator. His narration includes things like: After I picked up the gun… So a first person screenplay must have a first person narrator, but not first person narrative. Screenplay narrative (action and description) and the Dialogue is in third person.

As NMS points out, first person POV is a different matter. Screenplay POV deals with how the story is filmed. Novel POV deals with how the writer presents the story.

The first person story character is usually in every scene because he or she is telling the story; however you, the screenwriter, may chose to write the story so every shot is as if taken strictly through the character's eyes. This means the character is never visible in any scenes (except in reflections). However; you may choose NOT to shoot the story through the characters eyes and you may reveal the character in some scenes. It's your choice.

first of all, it is not the camera angles that determine the POV. scenes have to move along the journey of the lead. now if your protag is in a war and you want to show the planes coming then you can use the OSS shot but it would be directing. instead of stricktly focusing on the camera angle visualization, focus on the journey of the protag and have more scenes where in he has something pivotal to do.

as for your example, this should do,

EXT. BATTLE FIELD - DAY

hero, hiding behind a tree, fires his AK-47. he looks at--

-- the planes coming towards him. they move past him.

hero sees the planes as they move past his hide out.

regards,
Ace.Inc1

aceinc1 said:

first of all, it is not the camera angles that determine the POV. scenes have to move along the journey of the lead. now if your protag is in a war and you want to show the planes coming then you can use the OSS shot but it would be directing. instead of stricktly focusing on the camera angle visualization, focus on the journey of the protag and have more scenes where in he has something pivotal to do.

as for your example, this should do,

EXT. BATTLE FIELD - DAY

hero, hiding behind a tree, fires his AK-47. he looks at--

-- the planes coming towards him. they move past him.

hero sees the planes as they move past his hide out.

regards,
Ace.Inc1

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Your example implies camera angles or shots, the way I read it.

Shot 1 is of the hero behind a tree, shooting his AK.

Shot 2 could be a tracking shot that begins with the planes in the sky and follows them as they sweep in over the hero's hideout and away.

Perhaps you want to concentrate on your hero and his reaction in a combat situation. Perhaps viewing the plane is not that important to the story. You could have written it another way to imply only one shot, one POV.

EXT. BATTLE FIELD - DAY

hero, hiding behind a tree, fires his AK-47.
Click. Click. Out of amo.

He hears the roar of an aircraft engine. Close.
Getting louder. He scrambles to find more ammo.
The sound is unberable now. He jams in a new clip,
fires every round into the sky.

An explosion. An airplane engine and part of a torn up
wing skim a few feet over his position.

Written to imply one camera angle, one POV. The director can change how it's filmed. He or she has the final say on how to film the story. But the screenwrite writes the story using POVs he feels are the best to tell the story to a Reader.

I recently wrote a screenplay that starts with the main character journaling his life and and almost ends with him journaling his life. He is the narrator only at the begining and the ending. You don't see him writing except in the begining or the end. Otherwise he is either in every scene or in every scene he is told what has happened. It is not viewed through his eyes but rather through his memories. It doesn't matter the perspective so long as he was part of what happened. Thus, you could show a beach being straffed from the piolot's viewpoint so long as he was on the beach and ultimately saw the airplane. Camera angles etc., are up to the director. The whole point is that he can only be write about something he knows about if you establish early on that he is writing about or remembering things to which he was a party