Incest-- too icky for words? or not enough?

[Ruth2]

Okay, my WIP deals with Genetic Sexual Attraction. GSA is a phenomenon that deals with folks who are blood relatives, separated at a very early age and then meet as adults. My question(s) is: would there even be a market for this? Technically it's incest but it's not coming from the usual angle. Yes, it is an integral part of the story; take it out and the story collapses.

What say y'all? Thanks.

[Soccer Mom]

I suppose there is a market for anything, but I would search one out before I went about writing it. Most publishers list this on their taboo list.

[sunandshadow]

There's a market for it on the more erotica/porn side of things. If you were aiming more for a steamy romance novel, eh, not as much of a market there. You could definitely sell an incest-themed ebook.

[SFLP]

Eh, incest isn't my thing. I will read it occasionally in plain erotica, where it appears as SNS says, but definitely not in the erotic romance genre. I generally try to avoid it.

If you're shooting for erotic romance, though, and it's science fiction (far in the future) or heavy fantasy, something where you can justify it without the squick factor, you could probably get away with it.

Example: Ellora's cave guidelines say something to the effect of: the protagonists shouldn't have sex with anyone after they meet/get together...but if, in a scifi/fantasy story, getting screwed by 20 guys is part of the wedding ceremony, that's OK. *shrug* (I forget what is says specifically, but that's the gist of it.)

Those same rules, for example, say no bestiality, but there's an exception for shapechangers.

I think that in general erotica, you can get away with almost anything; if you're shooting for erotic romance, you'll have to be more careful.

I'll be honest and say that if the description of the book told me that it was incest, even if only genetically, I can't see myself buying it. (Then again, though I buy lots of erotic fiction, they tend to be in specific categories, and that's just not my category...so take all this with a grain of salt. :))

J.

[Idkwiaowiw]

Perhaps I'm just weird, but I would read your book!

[SFLP]

Perhaps I'm just weird, but I would read your book!

lol - Weirdly, if it were NOT erotic fiction, and had a genetic incest component, and were just scifi or fantasy, I'd probably buy it, too. Based on everything else I said in my previous post, how weird is that?

J.

P.S. As I always tell people, to understand how I feel about incest stories, you'd have to meet my family. ;)

[Ruth2]

Well, it does have heavy vampiric themes plus the incest is mandated by the family to keep the genetic line pure. The twins occur once every three generations and when they do they're supposed to marry-- or they're killed. And there's the hint that the original couple reincarnates in the twins. So yea, pretty heavy fantasy stuff going on.

[benbradley]

Well, it does have heavy vampiric themes plus the incest is mandated by the family to keep the genetic line pure. The twins occur once every three generations and when they do they're supposed to marry-- or they're killed. And there's the hint that the original couple reincarnates in the twins. So yea, pretty heavy fantasy stuff going on.
Now that you explain it further it sounds rather interesting, and there could be a good argument that the incest is "demanded" by the story.

I was just thinking before reading this last post that you can usually get away with more "far out" stuff (as in sexual and other 'icky' things) in SF and fantasy than you can in most other genres. I suppose SFLP's last post led me to that thought.

After all, it's all under the umbrella of that newish tag "speculative fiction."

[TabithaTodd]

Ironically, I have a vamp novel I'm working on that is kind of in the same boat but not. In life they were not brother and sister but (as the cliche goes) in "darkness" they are (same maker) and refer to each other as brother and sister. It's a vampire erotica\military tactical and paranormal mix.

There's a market for it, a small niche but one none the less. I say write the story the way it needs to come out you'll find someone who will be interested in publishing it.

[Ruth2]

Thanks, y'all, I appreciate it, both the advice and the encouragement.

Tabitha Todd: Good luck with your novel. Yeah, it sounds like we started on the same diving board but ended up jumping into different pools. At this point, mine aren't even vampires although there has been a small exchange of blood.. with interesting results.

benbradley: Thanks for saying it sounds interesting. Definitely speculative fiction.

SFLP: Not weird at all. I'm still not sure how far into erotica it's going. I think writing porn might be easier, less emotional stuff to navigate.

Idkwiaowiw: Thanks! That encourages me!

sunandshadow: I'll see how it goes. I'm not sure how erotic it will turn out so....

SoccerMom: Thanks for the heads up!

I appreciate it, ya'll! Thanks!

[Sakamonda]

There's a market for it on the more erotica/porn side of things.

---Umm, no, there's not. All the erotica publishers I'm aware of specifically place this on their taboo do-not-publish list. When I've edited anthologies, anything I get that breaks standard erotica taboos (rape, incest, underage) gets automatically rejected.

[Thump]

I would read a "mainstream" novel about this. That is, not erotica of SFF. I think there was a documentary on TV at some point about a couple who went for genetic councelling because they were trying to have a baby and found out they were siblings.
They mentionned how they had so many things in common and instant chemistry. I thought it was really interesting and would like to read about the issues people who end up in this predicament have to face once they find out that they're married to their brother/sister.

But if it's a vamp novel, I'm sure it's fine.

[Samantha's_Song]

The five books in Virginia Andrews', Flowers in the attic, series didn't do too badly in the 1980's, everyone that read read those novels, and they were all about incest.

[Ruth2]

Thanks for taking the time to respond.

Sakamonda: Hmm, thanks for the heads up. I wonder if I up the "other creature-ness" of my MCs if it would pass muster in the horror fields?

Thump: Thanks. I'd say my MCs were more proto-vampires than actual vampires so... I dunno. Plus having the reincarnation factor...

Samantha's Song: Hmmm... I wonder of Andrews' books would be published now because of their themes.

At this point I'm not sure if my WIP would be considered erotica rather than something like... erotic paranormal thriller. There's lots of heat, although 30K into it there's no intercourse. Lots of "c" words flying around to describe body parts.

I wonder if I'd have better luck in Europe rather than here...

Thanks all!

[Samantha's_Song]

I reread them back in the mid 1990's and still liked them for the story they are/were, so I can't see why not. :)

Samantha's Song: Hmmm... I wonder of Andrews' books would be published now because of their themes.

[Sakamonda]

Flowers In The Attic was horror, and the incest issue was part of the horror aspect. What works in horror (i.e., what horrifies) isn't going to work in erotica (which is supposed to turn people on sexually). Apples-and-oranges comparison, sorry.

[Samantha's_Song]

Horror? I just saw those novels as slices of life. No sparkly vampires, werewolves or any other paranormal being or monster in the book. The worst part about them was four kids imprisoned in an attic. The two little princes were imprisoned in the tower of London, but that's not written down as horror, it's classed as history.

Flowers In The Attic was horror, and the incest issue was part of the horror aspect. What works in horror (i.e., what horrifies) isn't going to work in erotica (which is supposed to turn people on sexually). Apples-and-oranges comparison, sorry.

[Ruth2]

Ah, but if incest is permissible within the confines of horror (because it horrifies) then I think I'm okay in that 1) there are elements of horror in my WIP which increase as the story progresses and 2) the incest/sexual encounters are used to show the breaking down of the female MC's boundaries and not to turn people on sexually. At least in regards to the sexual scenes, the fact the someone may get aroused is ancillary to everything else going on.

Thank you, Sakamonda and Samantha's Song!

[scarletpeaches]

Incest doesn't horrify me.

Besides, Flowers in the Attic, horror? Please. It's about as horrific as an episode of the Teletubbies. The worst thing about it was Andrews' writing style. A thriller maybe, but to be honest it made me laugh.

Maybe I'm in the minority but there's very little that would shock me...say, anything involving dolphins or ugly people.

[Samantha's_Song]

Hah! That got to me too, even though I wasn't even writing at the time.

Incest doesn't horrify me either, there again not much does, and it doesn't turn me on, it's just something that sometimes happens.

The worst thing about it was Andrews' writing style. A thriller maybe, but to be honest it made me laugh.

[ChristineR]

Incest is a theme in many books, from Oedipus Rex on down. But if you are talking about explicit erotica, probably most people won't want to read it. If it's a vampire fantasy and you can indicate that they're having sex without explaining it in great detail, I think you'll be fine. Dark and creepy, but fine.

[Ruth2]

Thanks y'all!

ChristineR: Well, the WIP is first person from the female MC's POV. She's pretty good at describing what happens but I don't think it goes as far as explicit erotica, unless using "cock" automatically puts it in that category. It's not in the "turgid throbbing manhood" category either though. And it definitely dark and creepy and gets darker and creepier as it goes along.

Samantha's Song: Incest interests me from the POV of someone who's adopted meeting a birth sibling, developing a relationship and finding out they're blood kin. Adult/child incest does nothing for me.

scarletpeaches: I gotta admit-- my kids thought the Teletubbies were really creepy. In Andrews' books, for me, the horror is the abandonment by the mother and the mental abuse the kids endured, not the incest. With incest, I think it's not the sex per se that's horrific but all the other baggage that comes along with it. But I'm sorta weird too

[scarletpeaches]

Too? TOO? Weird TOO?

Are you suggesting I am slightly more eccentric than your average nutjob?

[Sakamonda]

Regardless of what you think it is, The Flowers in the Attic series was classified, published, sold, and marketed as horror. Knowing what genre your work fits into is an essentail part of getting it published. If your work doesn't fit into genre conventions, it won't sell in that genre.

Incest is NEVER appropriate content in erotica. NEVER. Erotica editors won't touch it. Incest does appear in other genres, like horror, literary fiction, drama, even mystery. But not erotica. Erotica is literature designed to arouse the reader sexually. Incest is never something that should be sexually arousing. That's why it's off-limits in erotica.

If you're including incest in an erotica novel, you have two options----get rid of the incest, or write the novel in a way that it is appropriate for another genre.

[Ruth2]

scarletpeaches: Of course not. You're no weirder than... uh.. yeah. That average nut job. Yeah, that's it.

Sakamonda: Thanks. I plan on upping the horror and marketing it as that.

[SFLP]

Maybe I'm in the minority but there's very little that would shock me...say, anything involving dolphins or ugly people.

There's a story on EC or Loose-ID...I think it was Loose-Id. One of the main sites anyway. It involves a human male and two shapechanging dolphin males. Don't know if they are brothers, though. ;)

J.

[Ruth2]

Okay that's weird. "To each his own," said the old lady as she kissed the purple cow, but man and dolphin ...? Okay. Whatever.

[SFLP]

Okay that's weird.

Well, if it's any consolation, I think they are human a chunk of the time during sex, though the blurb on the site does say "sex in shifted form". Finally found it again - it's a Loose Id story by Jules Jones called Dolphin Dreams. I just stuck in on my wishlist there; from the excerpt, it actually sounds fun.

Don't think they are brothers but yes, they are dolphins. :D If someone can do a dolphin book, maybe vampire incest isn't that far out there. ;)

Yes, yes, Ms. Scarlett, I realize that dolphins are twisted, but...so am I.

[sunandshadow]

Since dolphins are one of only a handful of species who will on their own try to initiate sex with a human, and also one of the most intelligent kinds of animals on the planet, it seems logical to me that they could be considered attractive. Although actually you hardly ever see them in anthropomorphic fiction, that's all wolves/foxes, cats, and dragons.

[Ruth2]

Why would a dolphin want to have sex with a human? Dominance? Makes me wonder about Flipper...

[SFLP]

Why would a dolphin want to have sex with a human? Dominance? Makes me wonder about Flipper...

Ah, so you've read this book! lol Actually, it is partly a D/s story, so yes, dominance.

But they are shapechangers...maybe it's only the person part that wants sex with the human. I'll let you know once I've read the book.

J.

[Ruth2]

I couldn't imagine that the dolphins would get a crush on the man so what's left but dominance?

[brainstorm77]

V.C. Andrews horror?

[Ruth2]

LOL!!! Thanks, brainstorm77!

[Sakamonda]

VC Andrews is usually shelved in multiple bookstore departments----horror, suspense, and family saga.

[JanDarby]

Erotic ROMANCE considers incest taboo, but many of the classics of erotica (without the "romance" in the genre) have featured incest, and I believe publishers of erotica, per se, still publish such stories.

JD

[Ruth2]

Sakamonda: IIRC, V.C. Andrews was quite a brand a while back. At least at our library you could hardly turn around without seeing an Andrews book.

JanDarby: Maybe the rule of thumb is: if it's supposed to turn you on, incest is a no-np. But if it's supposed to horrify (or gross you out) it's okay.

Thanks, ya'll!

[SarahMacManus]

Well, it was done well in The Hotel New Hampshire and Ada or Ardor, which are literary fiction. But as erotica, I'm not sure if it works. :/ Some people (me included) don't find it very erotic.

On the other hand, if you're talking about vampires, who aren't human, it's not quite as squicky. Do vampires even breed? How? Why?

As a paranormal with erotic overtones, it might work.

[Ruth2]

SarahMcManus: Well, mine breed before becoming fully vampiric (I say that because they aren't vampires in the classic sense, but then neither are they completely human) then undergo a ritual to ensure they remain alive for a very very long time. OTOH, some authors do have their vampires breeding with humans -- I'm thinking of Jim Butcher's White Court vampires (Raith) here.

sunandshadow: I wonder why we don't see more dolphins et al in anthropmorphic fiction. Do you think it's because dolphins and such are not considered dangerous/powerful? Hey, how 'bout an octopus and man? (Eeeuw, right in my arachnaphobia with that one...)

Thanks ya'll for the response!

[SFLP]

Hey, how 'bout an octopus and man? (Eeeuw, right in my arachnaphobia with that one...)


Jem (Scott Cole) actually wrote a shapechanging octopus story in the erotica SYW forum for an exercise. It was...creepy. lol.

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3508688&postcount=2

[Scott Cole]

Jem (Scott Cole) actually wrote a shapechanging octopus story in the erotica SYW forum for an exercise. It was...creepy. lol.

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3508688&postcount=2
Yeah, but my octopus swallowed the man (and not in a good way). She fucked a ghost.

[Sakamonda]

Erotic ROMANCE considers incest taboo, but many of the classics of erotica (without the "romance" in the genre) have featured incest, and I believe publishers of erotica, per se, still publish such stories.

----NO. NO. NO. NO. Incest is NEVER, EVER, EVER acceptable subject matter in erotica. Every single erotica publisher and editor out there will automatically reject it. Period. Absolutely taboo in erotica OR erotic romance. Incest is NOT SEXUALLY AROUSING. If somehow you think it is, you need psychiatric help. Therefore it is not acceptable in erotica---which is literature written specifically to arouse.

I'm not disputing that V.C. Andrews is a popular author. She was (and still is) one of the top bestselling authors in history. But V.C. Andrews wasn't writing erotica. She was writing mostly family saga, with some horror and suspense. Incest can be and is an appropriate subject in family saga, horror, and suspense. But those books are not written to sexually arouse the reader. Biiiig difference.

[Ruth2]

SFLP and ScottCole: i never would've thought of octupi having sex with his victim's ghost.

Sakamonda: Since my scenes are not to arouse, I should be in the clear. (Fingers crossed.)

Thanks ya'll!

[sunandshadow]

----NO. NO. NO. NO. Incest is NEVER, EVER, EVER acceptable subject matter in erotica. Every single erotica publisher and editor out there will automatically reject it. Period. Absolutely taboo in erotica OR erotic romance. Incest is NOT SEXUALLY AROUSING. If somehow you think it is, you need psychiatric help. Therefore it is not acceptable in erotica---which is literature written specifically to arouse.

I'm not disputing that V.C. Andrews is a popular author. She was (and still is) one of the top bestselling authors in history. But V.C. Andrews wasn't writing erotica. She was writing mostly family saga, with some horror and suspense. Incest can be and is an appropriate subject in family saga, horror, and suspense. But those books are not written to sexually arouse the reader. Biiiig difference.
This is just wrong. There is a fairly large segment of the erotica-consuming population that considers incest arousing as fantasy material. Thinking this can definitely not be described as a psychiatric problem, and saying that is just insulting, it's like people who think being aroused by bdsm is a mental illness, or who think being attracted to anthropomorphic characters is the same, or... well I could go on and on with the list of fairly healthy fetishes which have been labeled depravity or insanity. It's just not so.

Incest has been a topic of salacious gossip and erotic storytelling since prehistoric times; many cultures' origin stories feature the first being marrying one of their children, or the first brother and sister marrying each other, or a person fleeing the up to the sky to become a celestial object and escape the incestuous desire of a sibling. Shakespeare wrote about incest, and he was a master of figuring out what audiences would pay to hear about. Incest categories make up large chunks of online erotica archives, and there are absolutely some ebook publishers who publish incest themed work.

[scarletpeaches]

Incest is a social construct of our times.

Look at Cain - he married one of his own sisters. Sarai was Abram's half-sister. Okay, Biblical not erotica but it just goes to show - in some cultures, what we call incest is/was perfectly acceptable.

So...go on, call me a psychiatrist. I see no problem with it.

[JanDarby]

Don't conflate "erotic romance" with "erotica." They are overlapping, but not identical genres.

Erotica is, indeed, usually intended to titillate, and runs the gamut from vanilla sex to activities (some much more outrageous than incest) that some people might find objectionable, but that others find arousing.

The "no incest, no bestiality, no degrading violence, etc." prohibitions are most often (but not exclusively) found at erotic ROMANCE publishers, and are often missing from pure erotica publishers. If you check the guidelines for the various publishers listed at the erotica readers and writers website, you'll find several that do NOT contain this prohibition, and I'm sure you could find on-line erotica sites that contain stories of incest. There's also a long tradition of incest in classic erotica; the Victorian-era stories are rife with it, and they are available today from major booksellers.

JD

[eqb]

...There's also a long tradition of incest in classic erotica; the Victorian-era stories are rife with it, and they are available today from major booksellers.

What She Said.

The erotica publishers I'm familiar with have two big prohibitions: no children, and nothing that's non-consensual. (Bondage, S&M, etc. are fine, as long as it's clear from the text that the partners are willing.) Several state no beastiality, but shape-shifters having sex is considered okay. Again, these are just the ones I'm familiar with, but it does mean that "no, not ever" is not entirely accurate.

[nkkingston]

Incest is NOT SEXUALLY AROUSING.

I can list a bunch of fandoms you never want to look at the fanfiction for! Incest is a niche, but it's got some fairly loyal fans, and plenty of people willing to dip their toes in precisely for the messed-up nature of an incestuous relationship. Angst-appeal.

It's a long way from romance, but I wouldn't be surprised if some straight-up erotica publishers accepted erotic incest. It's probably easier to sell it in another genre, though. From the discussion above it sounds like it might fit into something like horror better anyway.

Anecdotally, people seem more accepting of sibling incest than parent-child incest, even when both are adults. I guess it's a matter of consent and perceived trust.

[Stella Omega]

I wrote one incest story years ago, but it was for a couple who weren't actually brother and sister, and in the story they were a pair of captives who had been sold as brother and sister, so it was ersatz incest all he way! :D

[Ruth2]

stella ortega: Mine are genetic twins but were separated at birth and didn't find each other until they were in their 30s.

nkkingston: I've read some of those fanfics. Wow....

eqb: It seems some of the boundaries are, if not fluid, at least like jello. What about Europe? Any idea on what the prohibitions are over there?

JanDarby: Generally it seems as long as you don't intend to arouse, you can write it.

scarletpeaches: And I've read of a Balinese prophecy/myth that regards the marrying of opposite gender twins as being good luck.

sunandshadow: I guess it depends on where you want to market and how you want to define it. Because my scenes involve twins, I'm already beyond the pale for some markets. Yet the reason I'm writing is not to arouse, although I want my sex scenes to be really really good, but to tell my story. I can't divorce the sex from the plot; the story's raison d'etre is them marrying or not and continuing the family not matter how bizarre it is. But neither is the whole story them shagging their brains out.

Thanks ya'll!

[eqb]

eqb: It seems some of the boundaries are, if not fluid, at least like jello. What about Europe? Any idea on what the prohibitions are over there?

Definitely like jello. *g*

I'm sorry, but I don't know much about European markets. My impression is that they are less afraid of cultural and sexual taboos than US ones, but that's just an impression.

Best of luck with your story!

[Ruth2]

Thanks eqb!

[SFLP]

Well, I was curious. Keep in mind I don't know anything about any of these companies. ;)

Edit: Took out one that DID prohibit incest in the text that I posted. Sheesh, I'm blind today.

http://www.erotiquepress.com/submission.htm

Website says:
IT'S NOT JUST ABOUT ROMANCE!
Erotiqué is currently accepting submissions for ALL GENRES of erotic fiction.

They say "We are not looking for stories that involve any acts that are sadistically deviant or illegal (pedophilia, necrophilia, or bestiality)." Nothing about incest.

EREC says that Predators and Editors have them listed as Not Recommended, but I checked P&E and it now says "Good news, they now have a much improved contract" and the company is no longer listed as Not Recommended.

Shadowfire Press (http://www.shadowfirepress.com/) only explicitly prohibits the following:
No Bestiality, this does not include weres.
No necrophilia, this does not include vampires.
No Pedophilia! All characters must be 18 years or older, there are no excptions! Period!
No scat, golden showers or sharp or dangerous things put into bodily orifices. No felching. No snuff.
Sorry, but we cannot accept fanfiction.

I didn't see incest mentioned anywhere on the site, but according to their rating system, they'll have books that include stuff as off the wall as "themes some readers may find highly objectionable like body modification, character torture or death." They also allow forced seduction and "Graphically detailed violence, or horrific themes."

http://www.total-e-bound.com/ prohibits pedophilia, rape as titillation, bodily functions, necrophilia, and non-shapeshifter bestiality.

They have one rating that is "Total-e-taboo - the taboo line breaks into pure, unadulterated erotica or covers the subjects that could be seen as extreme or offensive, pushing stories to the limits of what some deem acceptable."

http://www.imajinnbooks.com says "We don’t want stories about heavy BDSM, torture, bestiality (dogs, horses, snakes, and other real-world critters), non-sexual bodily functions ("golden showers"), pedophilia, necrophilia, cannibalism, weapons or other deadly implements being shoved into orifices, rape or anything else so kinky that it will offend our core readership. On the other hand, we understand that writing erotic stories about werewolves and aliens could lead to some interesting situations. "

Maybe your story would be considered an "interesting situation".

A lot of the erotic publishers websites I looked at didn't list anything, acceptable or not - they only gave formatting guidelines. I skipped those.

Hope you find a home for your story. :)


J.

[Ruth2]

Thanks SFLP! That was a lot of work and I appreciate it. I hope I find a home for it too.

I'm up to my first real sex scene (I think) so we'll see how it goes. All the others have been prelims. The characters are ready (heh heh) but the writer is .. uh... erm... squirming. Oh well.

Wish me luck!

[bethany]

Anne Rice's Witching Series had lots of incest in it, in fact, they were being genetically bred to make the perfect vehicle for the ghost Lasher to come into the world. I suppose these were considered horror too, but I thought I'd point out the similarities. First two books were awesome, last book was...now.

[Ruth2]

Thanks Bethany. You know, I read one of them but got so bogged down in the verbiage that I skipped to the end. (I know, naughty me.) Let's see, which one did I read-- "The Witching Hour". And thanks for reminding me about the incest angle. I'd forgotten that.

So. It can be done as long as one is judicious and chooses the market carefully.

Thanks again!

[scarletpeaches]

SFLP's post interests me. Under-18s having sex is paedophilia, huh?

Well. I guess when I lost my virginity at 17 to a 16 year old, that's what we were doing- oh, wait, no...'cause the age of consent varies from country to country.

I think that's what people forget.

Age of consent varies, and so does a sense of what is right and what is 'oogy'.

[Ruth2]

Hallo scarletpeaches! Nah, it means you were ephebophiles. Or just horny.

Age of consent may vary from state to state within the US as well.

All my oogies are personal. I'm really pretty much vanilla, but I'm curious about other things.

[scarletpeaches]

Upshot is, there's a market for anything. So I'm sure that no matter what you write, someone will want to read it.

Would they be willing to PAY to read it, thereby enabling you to experience riches, fame and unparalleled power over the rest of mankind?

Remains to be seen. :D

[Ruth2]

scarletpeaches: I guess ya throws the dice and takes ya chances...

Thanks!

[The Otter]

When it comes to fictional characters in stories, I'm personally not grossed out by incest (as long as it happens between consenting adults), and if it's a SF/F/horror story it may be more acceptable. As others have said, it's a cultural taboo and in other worlds/cultures it may be considered more acceptable.

I do think you'd have trouble marketing it a standard erotic romance. Looking at various e-publishers and small presses I usually see it on the list of standard taboos, along with underage sex, bestiality, et cetera.

In any case, it sounds interesting.

[Stella Omega]

SFLP's post interests me. Under-18s having sex is paedophilia, huh?

Well. I guess when I lost my virginity at 17 to a 16 year old, that's what we were doing- oh, wait, no...'cause the age of consent varies from country to country.

I think that's what people forget.

Age of consent varies, and so does a sense of what is right and what is 'oogy'.There are lots of excellent, well-recieved novels with sex between underaged people. That's allowed still, dammit!

Adult/underaged can also be treated with, legally, although you may fall afoul of ignorant local mores. And plenty of epubs refuse this material just to avoid trouble.

But adult plus someone who is not an adult but is over the age of consent in the location of the story... is not pedophilia.

Pedophilia is sex with prepubescent children, children who are not old enough to consent, and not mature enough physically to engage in genital sex. Ten year olds. Five year olds. Two year olds. Infants.

That's pedophilia.

(ETA) incest is positively sweet, by comparison!

[nkkingston]

I think it's hebephilia if the character is sexually mature but not legal (like Lolita). Wikipedia informs me that for late adolescents it's Ephebophilia.

Most countries are stricter on the age of characters in porn and erotica than they are on real people. It's legal to have sex in the UK at 16, but it's not legal to buy porn, be in porn, or buy sex toys 'til you're 18.

Age of consent =/= okay for other people to watch

Now, whether it's okay for other people to read (or look at, if it's a picture), especially if the characters are fictional is a whole different kettle of fish. There's been a lot of legal furore about fictional characters written or drawn in sexual situations under the age of 18. There have been several high profile cases in various countries (in Australia someone was prosecuted for Simpsons porn, if I remember, and there was a big case in the US over manga) most of which took the stance that it wasn't okay, even if no one was being harmed. In fact, sexualised images of minors without artistic merit (wtf?) are illegal in the US as of 2003.

The difference is images versus text, but it's currently a very risky area. It's no wonder very few ePubs are willing to touch it. I was impressed Ruthie's Club did, within reason, but I'm guessing that covers things like 16+ school kids getting experimental.


ETA: I feel I should add, the reason I know a lot of this is because, back when I was too young to be reading what I wrote, I was in the Harry Potter fandom. Livejournal had a massive panic over it a few years back, so I kept an eye on stuff like this :)

[Ruth2]

hey nkkingston! I didn't know about the hebephilia. And thanks for the info about sex and real life vs sex and fictional life in the UK. Do you happen to know if it extends across the EU as well?

stella omega: Maybe that's why V.C. Andrews got such a pass with her "Flowers in the Attic"...

Thanks y'all!

[The Otter]

Now, whether it's okay for other people to read (or look at, if it's a picture), especially if the characters are fictional is a whole different kettle of fish. There's been a lot of legal furore about fictional characters written or drawn in sexual situations under the age of 18. There have been several high profile cases in various countries (in Australia someone was prosecuted for Simpsons porn, if I remember, and there was a big case in the US over manga) most of which took the stance that it wasn't okay, even if no one was being harmed. In fact, sexualised images of minors without artistic merit (wtf?) are illegal in the US as of 2003.

Yeah, I heard about some guy being sent to jail for possessing an erotic manga that had under-aged characters in it. While I can certainly understand someone being arrested over possessing actual kiddy porn, it does seem bizarre to me to have so much outrage over lines of ink on a piece of paper...especially since with most manga and anime characters, you can never tell what age they're supposed to be anyway.

[nkkingston]

hey nkkingston! I didn't know about the hebephilia. And thanks for the info about sex and real life vs sex and fictional life in the UK. Do you happen to know if it extends across the EU as well?

The age of consent varies a lot from country to country across the EU, though I suspect 18 remains the age of majority in most countries, and thus the age individuals must be to appear in porn (and, presumably, cartoons). As far as I'm aware, age of consent isn't something the EU controls. After several highly publicised cases in the UK of tourists not knowing locals laws regarding sex (such as a couple prosecuted for having sex on a beach in Dubai (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7747460.stm)), information about sex laws is getting easier to find online. I wouldn't take wikipedia without a grain of salt, but this article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_consent_in_Europe) gives a brief overview of most European countries.

[Ruth2]

Hallo, The Otter! Sorry for missing your previous post and thanks for saying my story sounds interesting.

The US is sorta weird when it comes to sex, and I'm saying that from the position of one who is as vanilla as they come. (Well, maybe a few odd nuts here and there but still...)

[Boston Steve]

----NO. NO. NO. NO. Incest is NEVER, EVER, EVER acceptable subject matter in erotica. Every single erotica publisher and editor out there will automatically reject it. Period. Absolutely taboo in erotica OR erotic romance. Incest is NOT SEXUALLY AROUSING. If somehow you think it is, you need psychiatric help. Therefore it is not acceptable in erotica---which is literature written specifically to arouse.



It is, however, very, very, very big in porn. Take a look at a site like Literotica, and see how many stories are posted in the incest category, or look at the all-time sales figures for the Taboo series of 70's porn videos.

[Ruth2]

Hey Boston Steve..

Thanks. Odd that there's so much variance.

[Samantha's_Song]

What does vanilla mean, please? :Shrug:

[Boston Steve]

What does vanilla mean, please? :Shrug:

In general, it's a derogatory term used as a synonym for mild or boring.

The problem with it is that those terms mean different things to different people. For example, people who are into BDSM might use it to mean just sex, without pain, bondage, or any of the other elements of erotic power exchange; while others who are into swinging, threesomes, or who have open relationships might use it to refer to sex involving just 2 people.

The BDSM crowd are thus describing what the swingers are doing as vanilla, and vice versa.

[Samantha's_Song]

Ah, okay, thank you very much for explaining. :D

In general, it's a derogatory term used as a synonym for mild or boring.

The problem with it is that those terms mean different things to different people. For example, people who are into BDSM might use it to mean just sex, without pain, bondage, or any of the other elements of erotic power exchange; while others who are into swinging, threesomes, or who have open relationships might use it to refer to sex involving just 2 people.

The BDSM crowd are thus describing what the swingers are doing as vanilla, and vice versa.

[Selah March]

----NO. NO. NO. NO. Incest is NEVER, EVER, EVER acceptable subject matter in erotica. Every single erotica publisher and editor out there will automatically reject it. Period. Absolutely taboo in erotica OR erotic romance. Incest is NOT SEXUALLY AROUSING. If somehow you think it is, you need psychiatric help. Therefore it is not acceptable in erotica---which is literature written specifically to arouse.

You are mistaken.

The following is a list of erotica/erotic romance books published recently that feature incest or "twincest." I picked it up off LibraryThing. I doubt it's all-inclusive.

GEMINI, Chris Owen, Torquere Press
BULLRIDERS, Lorne Rodman, Torquere Press
BRAIDED, Sean Michaels, Torquere Press
TWIN TEMPTATIONS, Carol Lynne, Total-e-Bound
SAMURAI'S FORBIDDEN LOVE, Silapa Jarun, Bookstrand
ADAM AND EVEN, Starr Oliver, Torquere Press
NO PLACE LIKE HOME, BA Tortuga, Torquere Press
ONE FOR THE MONEY, Willa Okati, Torquere Press
TWO FOR THE SHOW, Willa Okati, Torquere Press
GO, MAN, GO, Willa Okati, Torquere Press
STEPPING STONES, Carol Lynne, Torquere Press

It's not my particular kink (with the possible exception of those hunky Winchester bros from Supernatural...YUMmm), but the assumption that no one finds incest sexually arousing is just that -- an assumption. (Furthermore and somewhat OT, sibling incest isn't necessarily illegal or even considered immoral in several countries outside the United States, so long as no procreation takes place -- which makes homosexual sibling incest the sub-kink of choice in this case.)

As an editor and a representative of your publishing company, you should know better than to make these kinds of rash generalizations. You're not doing yourself any favors by showing yourself to be ignorant of the current market and submission requirements of other pubs.

To the original poster: Your basic concept sounds intriguing. Write the story you feel moved to write. What's the worst that can happen? You enjoy writing it and improve your craft along the way, whether you sell it or not? Go for it and good luck to you.

[Ruth2]

Hullo all!

Samantha's Song and Boston Steve: Yeah, I'm pretty much a vanilla person but I like to read things that aren't. Some of it's for the "how'd they do that?" factor and some is for the "hmmm" factor. My two MCs start off vanilla but it seems someone has some other flavors mixed in there as well, not sure where it's going but... hey, that's what a first draft is for.

Selah March: That's what I'm hoping to do-- just write it out and see where it takes me, at least as far as the sex goes. And thanks for well wishes.

Thanks y'all!

[veinglory]

Well, it does have heavy vampiric themes plus the incest is mandated by the family to keep the genetic line pure. The twins occur once every three generations and when they do they're supposed to marry-- or they're killed. And there's the hint that the original couple reincarnates in the twins. So yea, pretty heavy fantasy stuff going on.

It sounds rather like Tanith Lee's vampire family incest series?

[Unimportant]

I think that it's not only the squick factor, but also the legality of the issue and the likelihood of a book being labelled as pornographic. A literary novel by Random House isn't going to get stopped at the Canadian border even if it features twincest. A glitterati novel by Judith Krantz isn't going to be labelled as pornographic even if it has sibling sex, lesbian sex, or any other borderline activities.

On the other hand, a sweet romance put out by a lesbian press is automatically suspect because it's Teh Gay (frex, YA non-romances with a gay or lesbian character were labelled as Teh Gay by Amazon during the great de-ranking debacle known as #AmazonFail.) So erotica and GLBT presses tend to be very twitchy about their books featuring anything that is technically illegal, even something as minor as an historical novel having a minor character under the age of 18 enter into an arranged marriage.

[Ruth2]

veinglory: I have no idea if it's like Lee's or not. Hm, gotta go check that out. Thanks for the heads up.

Unimportant: Good point(s). Thanks muchly!

[MargueriteMing]

Incest is NEVER appropriate content in erotica. NEVER. Erotica editors won't touch it. Incest does appear in other genres, like horror, literary fiction, drama, even mystery. But not erotica. Erotica is literature designed to arouse the reader sexually. Incest is never something that should be sexually arousing. That's why it's off-limits in erotica.



Actually, the Taboo series of explicit films was one of the most successful, ever. Also, there is a large amount of fiction available on the internet for fans of incest-based stories, so obviously there is an audience for it. Publishers' objections to it are more political than business-related.

The biggest problem I have with it is that much of it ignores or makes light of the risks arising from breaking a very strong taboo.

[MargueriteMing]

Incest is a social construct of our times.

Look at Cain - he married one of his own sisters. Sarai was Abram's half-sister. Okay, Biblical not erotica but it just goes to show - in some cultures, what we call incest is/was perfectly acceptable.

So...go on, call me a psychiatrist. I see no problem with it.

Not to mention Lot, who fathered children on both his daughters.

[MargueriteMing]

SFLP's post interests me. Under-18s having sex is paedophilia, huh?

Well. I guess when I lost my virginity at 17 to a 16 year old, that's what we were doing- oh, wait, no...'cause the age of consent varies from country to country.

I think that's what people forget.

Age of consent varies, and so does a sense of what is right and what is 'oogy'.

Pedophilia is technically sex with pre-pubescent children. Sex in the teens is underage, not pedophilia.

The age of consent has two different definitions. The legal one is set arbitrarily by the powers in charge, either elected or self-proclaimed. In some places it is set for religious or political reasons. In others the reasons are more practical, such as being old enough to get a job and support yourself and any children that result.


The practical one is a matter of individual maturity; the ability to understand the consequences of their actions well enough to be able to accept or reject the risks that go along with the choices a person makes.

[MargueriteMing]

I think it's hebephilia if the character is sexually mature but not legal (like Lolita). Wikipedia informs me that for late adolescents it's Ephebophilia.

Most countries are stricter on the age of characters in porn and erotica than they are on real people. It's legal to have sex in the UK at 16, but it's not legal to buy porn, be in porn, or buy sex toys 'til you're 18.

Age of consent =/= okay for other people to watch

Now, whether it's okay for other people to read (or look at, if it's a picture), especially if the characters are fictional is a whole different kettle of fish. There's been a lot of legal furore about fictional characters written or drawn in sexual situations under the age of 18. There have been several high profile cases in various countries (in Australia someone was prosecuted for Simpsons porn, if I remember, and there was a big case in the US over manga) most of which took the stance that it wasn't okay, even if no one was being harmed. In fact, sexualised images of minors without artistic merit (wtf?) are illegal in the US as of 2003.

The difference is images versus text, but it's currently a very risky area. It's no wonder very few ePubs are willing to touch it. I was impressed Ruthie's Club did, within reason, but I'm guessing that covers things like 16+ school kids getting experimental.


ETA: I feel I should add, the reason I know a lot of this is because, back when I was too young to be reading what I wrote, I was in the Harry Potter fandom. Livejournal had a massive panic over it a few years back, so I kept an eye on stuff like this :)

So, what if a 16-year-old writes erotic stories about other 16-year-olds? Can they be arrested? Should they? What about when they become 18? 24? 40? 55? Can they no longer publish what they wrote at 16?

[Ruth2]

Hey MargueriteMing!

It seems with the incest taboo that most of it is cultural for various reasons-- genetic, et al. For those with siblings the phermone issue may come into play as well, plus those who are "other" than us are generally more sexually attractive. Which sort of runs rampant over the Genetic Sexual Attraction issue.

Publishing? Probably illegal to write, publish and/or read, at least here. Don't know how it is in Europe. Worth investigating, maybe.

Thanks for posting!

[Stella Omega]

So, what if a 16-year-old writes erotic stories about other 16-year-olds? Can they be arrested? Should they? What about when they become 18? 24? 40? 55? Can they no longer publish what they wrote at 16?You know-- I don't even feel comfortable having my own teenaged journals in my possession!

[Ruth2]

Stella Omega: I've got this fear that anything I write that's personal can and will be used against me. I don't even underline in books, let alone have a journal. Scary!

[Samantha's_Song]

Ruth, by the time you get to my age, 50 next year, you won't give a toss what anyone else thinks of you. ;)

Stella Omega: I've got this fear that anything I write that's personal can and will be used against me. I don't even underline in books, let alone have a journal. Scary!

[Ruth2]

LOL, Samantha's Song, I passed 50 several years ago!

However, as a child I had a close relative who would take anything, and I mean anything, and use it against me at times. I learned to be very secretive and leave no trace of what I liked or disliked; not even reactions were safe.

So, journals and diaries were out for me.

[nkkingston]

So, what if a 16-year-old writes erotic stories about other 16-year-olds? Can they be arrested?

I'm not a lawyer, but...

Under UK law, yes. You have to be 18 to publish sexual fiction, in the same way you have to be 18 to make or appear in porn. At least, as far as I'm aware (I've not researched this).

Publishng erotica bout 16 year olds once you turn 18 is, I think, technically legal, but a dodgy area. Publishing at 40 what you wrote at 16 would just be strange considering how much your writing is likely to have improved!

[DavidZahir]

----NO. NO. NO. NO. Incest is NEVER, EVER, EVER acceptable subject matter in erotica. Every single erotica publisher and editor out there will automatically reject it. Period. Absolutely taboo in erotica OR erotic romance. Incest is NOT SEXUALLY AROUSING. If somehow you think it is, you need psychiatric help. Therefore it is not acceptable in erotica---which is literature written specifically to arouse.Actually, I cannot agree with this. In fact, all sorts of things might well arouse because they touch those parts of your brain that are primitive. Myself, I find some forms of erotica quite stimulating that I would never wish to try in real life (and some of which I am physically unable to attempt). And yes, that has included stories about incest.

Mind, I'm not talking about incest involving minors. However, I frankly dismiss outright the sweeping judgment that I need the help of a mental health professional because I have ever found any representation of incest arousing. Were I at all tempted to commit such an act, that would be a different story.

But I do agree that some non-Erotica (as opposed to non-erotic) works have certainly included incest as an element. George R.R.Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire for example (this also included explicit sexual scenes involving a grown man and a 13-year-old, but that was in a very different culture). Tanish Lee's novels about the Scarabae, as well as Anne Rice's Mayfair novels (and her book Cry To Heaven has a disturbingly sensual scene at the end that is rather erotic, but I don't want to spoil it for those who haven't read it yet).

It is interesting to me that evidently high end gay and lesbian pornography has delved into incest, although again not involving minors. Viv Thomas had a movie about the attraction between two sisters (titled Sisters) while Girlfriend Films has explored the idea of attraction between a girl and her stepmom in several features.

Father/Daughter potential incest was inherent in one volume of The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the Unbeliever. Brother/sister incest forms a vital part of Wagner's second Ring opera.

Sakamonda: Thanks. I plan on upping the horror and marketing it as that.As a marketing strategy, methinks that is wise -- especially as you describe the subject matter. While perhaps utterly appropriate in terms of your story, the fact that such subject matter can be set in terms of an otherworldly genre makes it more palatable. IMHO.

[veinglory]

Indeed, there is plenty of incest erotica. The majority of it is M/M but other variations certainly exist. Erotica is a very broad an accepting genre, the reader is presumed capable of picking, choosing and avoiding at their own discretion. At this very moment you can easily by incest, bestiality or whatever you want straight from Amazon.

[Stella Omega]

LOL, Samantha's Song, I passed 50 several years ago!

However, as a child I had a close relative who would take anything, and I mean anything, and use it against me at times. I learned to be very secretive and leave no trace of what I liked or disliked; not even reactions were safe.

So, journals and diaries were out for me.Wow, that sucks. On the other hand... *musing* it's a great start for a plot, that need for secrecy....

I am amused at Sakamonda's post. it's NOT AROUSING, by God!:D

That's true for many of us, but I know that one of the most popular sections over at a certain ex-favorite site of mine ;) is incest, and the writers in that genre are incredibly competitive over the readers' votes...

[Ruth2]

nkkingston: Erk. Publishing anything I wrote at 16 is embarrassing to even think about.

DavdZahir: My incest deals with Genetic Sexual Attraction which is an odd ball of wax in its own right, although there are also some D/s flavors to it as well-- besides the horror/paranormal/thriller aspect. <shrugs> We'll see.

veinglory: Yeah, I've seen some interesting stuff on Amazon. Mine doesn't even come close to pushing the limit, except for the GSA thing.

StellaOmega: Definitely sucks. Definitely was the most defining stamp on my childhood. Plays havoc with intimacy in all sorts of ways. But you're right-- could be story there...

Thanks y'all!

[motormind]

Okay, my WIP deals with Genetic Sexual Attraction. GSA is a phenomenon that deals with folks who are blood relatives, separated at a very early age and then meet as adults. My question(s) is: would there even be a market for this? Technically it's incest but it's not coming from the usual angle. Yes, it is an integral part of the story; take it out and the story collapses.

What say y'all? Thanks.

Two words: Koi Kaze.

[Ruth2]

Hey motormind... Er.. what's "koi kaze"?

Thanks!

[motormind]

Hey motormind... Er.. what's "koi kaze"?

Thanks!

Google is your friend! But you could start at the Wikipedia entry:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koi_Kaze

In short, it's a story about a brother and sister who fall victim to genetic sexual attraction. It's a comic book which later got turned into a TV series--and it's one of the most heart-wrenching stories I have ever seen in general, let alone on the subject.

You can read the comic, translated, online here:

http://www.onemanga.com/Koi_Kaze/

Beware: it is definitely not for kids.

[Ruth2]

Thanks, motormind! Definitely GSA.

veinglory: Yep, definitely some similiarities with Tanith Lee's series, although differences as well. Thanks again for the heads up; this early in I can probably reshape it a bit to make it even more different.

Thanks y'all!

[Sakamonda]

When it comes to what actual professional editors of erotica at actual professional publishers of erotica (i.e., publishers that pay their authors real royalties and have real distribution), incest is ABSOLUTELY TABOO. Making comparisons to stag films or the Bible (or self-published stuff easily slapped up on the Internet) really isn't relevant to this discussion. This discussion is about how to write and publish erotica for the professional market. And in the professional erotica market, it's just not considered acceptable.

[sunandshadow]

Personally I liked Angelic Sanctuary (there's a movie version of the first part! ^_^ ) a lot better than Koi Kaze. But some of the best incest stories I've read have been fanfiction or furry erotica.

[veinglory]

Sakamonda, I have on my shelf incest fic published by Ace, Nexus, Dell (the Tanith Lee series I mentioned) and Leyland publications, to name the ones I can see without getting up from my chair (and no, I don't seek out this theme, I just have a *lot* of books). Unless you don't think those are "real" publishers and editors what you say just isn't so.

[motormind]

Personally I liked Angelic Sanctuary (there's a movie version of the first part! ^_^ ) a lot better than Koi Kaze.

The only thing the two have in common is that they are comic books turned into TV series, which is a very meager base for comparison. It's almost like comparing a movie by Ingmar Bergman to Star Wars: they're both fine, but quite different.

Koi Kaze is rather realistic, whereas Angel Sanctuary is about reincarnated angels, fallen souls and whatnot. Plus, Angel Sanctuary doesn't even specifically address the issue of genetic sexual attraction, where Koi Kaze is all about its implications, so it would be a more interesting read for someone interested in a story about that subject.

[Selah March]

When it comes to what actual professional editors of erotica at actual professional publishers of erotica (i.e., publishers that pay their authors real royalties and have real distribution), incest is ABSOLUTELY TABOO. Making comparisons to stag films or the Bible (or self-published stuff easily slapped up on the Internet) really isn't relevant to this discussion. This discussion is about how to write and publish erotica for the professional market. And in the professional erotica market, it's just not considered acceptable.

Re-posting this partial list of recent releases that include incest and "twincest" (mostly of the m/m variety).

GEMINI, Chris Owen, Torquere Press
BULLRIDERS, Lorne Rodman, Torquere Press
BRAIDED, Sean Michaels, Torquere Press
TWIN TEMPTATIONS, Carol Lynne, Total-e-Bound
SAMURAI'S FORBIDDEN LOVE, Silapa Jarun, Bookstrand
ADAM AND EVEN, Starr Oliver, Torquere Press
NO PLACE LIKE HOME, BA Tortuga, Torquere Press
ONE FOR THE MONEY, Willa Okati, Torquere Press
TWO FOR THE SHOW, Willa Okati, Torquere Press
GO, MAN, GO, Willa Okati, Torquere Press
STEPPING STONES, Carol Lynne, Torquere Press

So can we assume you consider erotic publishers Torquere, Total-E-Bound and Bookstrand...what, exactly? Vanity presses? And popular authors like Carol Lynne, Willa Okati, Sean Michaels and BA Tortuga to be self-pubslished? Fascinating.

Your inability to admit that you're mistaken on this point is almost painful to watch.

[scarletpeaches]

When it comes to what actual professional editors of erotica at actual professional publishers of erotica (i.e., publishers that pay their authors real royalties and have real distribution), incest is ABSOLUTELY TABOO.

No. It isn't.

Making comparisons to...the Bible...really isn't relevant to this discussion.

Why? Because it disproves your allegation that incest is taboo?

This discussion is about how to write and publish erotica for the professional market. And in the professional erotica market, it's just not considered acceptable.

It's clearly not acceptable to you. Your opinion is not universal.

[BenPanced]

When it comes to what actual professional editors of erotica at actual professional publishers of erotica (i.e., publishers that pay their authors real royalties and have real distribution), incest is ABSOLUTELY TABOO. Making comparisons to stag films or the Bible (or self-published stuff easily slapped up on the Internet) really isn't relevant to this discussion. This discussion is about how to write and publish erotica for the professional market. And in the professional erotica market, it's just not considered acceptable.
Sources? Pub guidelines?

[Alpha Echo]

I would read a "mainstream" novel about this. That is, not erotica of SFF. I think there was a documentary on TV at some point about a couple who went for genetic councelling because they were trying to have a baby and found out they were siblings.
They mentionned how they had so many things in common and instant chemistry. I thought it was really interesting and would like to read about the issues people who end up in this predicament have to face once they find out that they're married to their brother/sister.



There was an episode of...Private Practice I think...where they had this scenario. It was a young couple, and they were trying to get pregnant, and in doing the testing to help them, the doctors discovered that they were actually brother and sister. I thought it was interesting.

And the vampire scenarios sound cool too, and I'm not even all that into vampires.

[Sakamonda]

You want proof? Sure. Here it is. If you're not intelligent enough to read publishers' guidelines, then I can't help you.

A list of EROTICA Publishers that explicitly BAN incest in their EROTICA books in their published guidelines (available for all to see) is below. All of these publishers explicitly state in their published guidelines that this is BANNED and will result in automatic rejection. All the major players in the erotica genre are on this list, and they make no secret about the no incest taboo in their writers guidelines. Verify it in black and white if you don't believe me.

We are talking about erotica here, folks. What might be acceptable in other genres (like literary, or science fiction) just doesn't apply.

THE FOLLOWING PUBLISHERS BAN INCEST IN THEIR PUBLISHED, STATED GUIDELINES ON THEIR WEBSITES!!
Harlequin (all of their erotica lines---they have three)
St. Martins
Avon Red
Ravenous Romance
Cleis Press
Elloras Cave
Loose Id
Samhain (their verbiage is "no book that glorifies depraved or illegal acts will be considered.") ---incest is illegal, as is rape
Alyson Books (erotica only)


Ace and Dell are both science fiction publishers---NOT EROTICA PUBLISHERS. Not a valid comparison. You can't compare applies to oranges, here, Veinglory, sorry.

Nexus has been shut down, is not publishing or acquiring any more books. Again, not a valid comparison.

Torquere is the only currently open erotica press that accepts incest---and it's an exclusively m/m publisher, an epublisher, and a very small one at that. Which is not necessarily a bad thing, but it's only one tiny publisher with a very limited market, and it should be considered the exception, not the rule.

Incest is not allowed in erotica. It's just the way it is in this genre. Deal with it. If you want to write about incest, go ahead, but you won't get it published as erotica (except maybe at Torquere.) Other genres, maybe.

[Selah March]

...Incest is not allowed in erotica. It's just the way it is in this genre. Deal with it. If you want to write about incest, go ahead, but you won't get it published as erotica (except maybe at Torquere.) Other genres, maybe.

No "maybe" about it. Torquere, and Total-E-Bound = publishers of erotic incest, small "niche" markets or not. Therefore if the OP wanted to write m/m incest erotica (which I don't believe she does, actually) and her manuscript was of sufficient quality/marketability, her book might well find a home there.

And so your original statement -- with all its many capitalized "NOs" and its tone of know-it-all superiority -- is proved to be mistaken, as massive generalizations made by people who know less than they think they do so often are.

I'm done. But you're welcome to tell us again how stupid you think we are if you believe it's winning you any points, friends, or readers.

[Samantha's_Song]

That's a very rude thing to say to anyone and I hope that your're going to apologize for this totally uncalled for remark.

You want proof? Sure. Here it is. If you're not intelligent enough to read publishers' guidelines, then I can't help you.

[Dee Carney]

Every time a certain poster here opens her mouth, I'm amazed at the amount of dumb that falls out. It's a shame that so many listen to her words and treat it as gospel.

ETA: You might want to check out this link to a book (http://www.allromanceebooks.com/product-torn-6168-149.html) that once was a twincest bestseller at ARe.

Oh, and another at Total E-Bound (http://www.total-e-bound.com/product.asp?strParents=&CAT_ID=0&P_ID=170&strPageHistory=search&numSearchStartRecord=1).

Just sayin.

[veinglory]

Okay, so that it was list of presses that don't take it. Like any kink some do, some don't, some might of the book was good enough. In terms of your absolute "none do" here is an incomplete list of presses that do (and have): Cleis, Dell, Nexus, Bantam and Marvel Comics. Authors of incest (gay and straight) romance or erotica plots include those depraved nobodies Tanith Lee, Anne Rice, Elizabeth A Lynn and George R R Martin.

[SFLP]

As Emily said, Ms. Layne listed the publishers that *don't* take it, as if that were the end of the story. Earlier in this thread I listed a few small publishers that do not exclude it, but apparently Ms. Layne thinks that we are only interested in major publishers. Apparently, she assumes that we only want to write for major publishers.

I posted that information by **reading the publishers guidelines**. Imagine that. I may be an idiot ("you're not intelligent enough to read publishers' guidelines"), but then, just goes to show, reading publishers guidelines doesn't make you smart. ;)

I am not really sure what the people who work at these small presses would think of Ms. Layne's comments ("actual professional editors of erotica at actual professional publishers of erotica") implying that they are not professionals.

Incest is not my thing, and I don't read it even on free sites, but I hate to see alarmist posts like that (THESE publishers don't accept it so NO publisher will accept it...how, exactly, did you come to that conclusion?) I realize that she, personally, doesn't find it arousing, but having read two of her books, I would say that our definition of what is arousing is not equal.

J.

[Chasing the Horizon]

You want proof? Sure. Here it is. If you're not intelligent enough to read publishers' guidelines, then I can't help you.

A list of EROTICA Publishers that explicitly BAN incest in their EROTICA books in their published guidelines (available for all to see) is below. All of these publishers explicitly state in their published guidelines that this is BANNED and will result in automatic rejection. All the major players in the erotica genre are on this list, and they make no secret about the no incest taboo in their writers guidelines. Verify it in black and white if you don't believe me.

We are talking about erotica here, folks. What might be acceptable in other genres (like literary, or science fiction) just doesn't apply.

<snip>
Wow. I've been following this thread, and I've got to say this is one of the dumbest posts I've ever read on AW. People posted links proving that there are publishers who will accept incest fiction, and yet for some reason you're incapable of acknowledging the facts. :crazy:

I guess you have some kind of personal issue with incest fiction. We're all entitled to our personal issues, but your shrink's office would probably be a better place to air them than AW.

[KimJo]

Making a probably-futile attempt to be reasonable here...

Some romance/erotic romance/erotica publishers will not accept incest. That includes some "major players" in the market.

Some romance/erotic romance/erotica publishers WILL accept incest, provided that all their other criteria (no underage characters, no rape or nonconsensual activity are two of the most frequent ones) are met.

Some may not indicate one way or the other, though I confess I haven't read guidelines from every single publisher. Which does not indicate that I don't know how to read them; it indicates that I'm busy trying to meet deadlines for two specific publishers whose guidelines I already know, and haven't got time to go checking everyone else's guidelines. (Or, truthfully, to post here, but my characters are being uncooperative at the moment.)

Sakamonda, you seem to have very strong feelings on the subject of incest. That's understandable; a lot of people do. But to say that anyone who finds incest *between consenting adults* to be arousing needs psychiatric help is incredibly, hugely judgmental of you, and to my mind, that comment, along with the one about others not being able to read guidelines, violates the first rule here, "Respect your fellow author." And before you jump on me, I'm not saying you're the only one who's violated that rule, I'm saying your disrespect stands out a lot more. Possibly because of all those full caps.

If the subject is so disturbing to you, no one's forcing you to participate in the discussion. I'm sure there are plenty of others who find the topic distasteful, but I don't see any of them slamming other authors here.

Finding *written depictions* of consensual sex between adult relatives to be arousing is not an indication of a need for mental health services; it's an indication that as humans, we're hard-wired to find depictions of sex arousing. Getting turned on by reading about a brother and sister falling in love and making love is not the same as wanting to run out and f*** your own sibling.

As for publishers' preferences, last time I checked, publishers and editors are human beings as well, and as such are likely to have varying preferences. Some guidelines are necessitated by law- no underage sex, no rape for titillation's sake, no bestiality, etc. Some are the personal preferences of whoever runs the company. To say, "I've found these publishers who don't accept incest, and that means no publishers accept it" is a gross misgeneralization. (Don't know if that's a word; don't care, I haven't had enough coffee yet.) Particularly when others have offered a similar list of publishers who *do* accept it.

Sakamonda, even though you're here under a screen name, you've made it clear what your pen name is and what publisher you write and edit for. As such, you represent that publisher when you post on this board. If this is what you want people to see as the face of your publisher, that's fine, but stop for a moment and consider what your vitriol in this thread might look like to others, and remember that they'll see it not only as you personally, but as a representative of that publishing house.

You are, unquestionably, entitled to your opinion. You are not, in my mind (and any mod can feel free to slap me down if I'm out of line), entitled to slam and rant at others for their opinions.

Respect your fellow author.

[Chasing the Horizon]

I missed this last night.

Samhain (their verbiage is "no book that glorifies depraved or illegal acts will be considered.") ---incest is illegal, as is rape
But sodomy is technically illegal in a lot of places. Does that mean Samhain doesn't publish anything with anal sex? The age of consent also differs from place to place (hence AW's requirement that people be 21 to access the erotica crit forum). So which law book do they refer to?

'Depraved' is even more vague. Some people certainly think homosexual activity is depraved. But I know Samhain publishes books with that in them. What about bondage and group sex? Lots of people think that's depraved.

Gah. This kind of crap makes me think I should stick with writing fantasy. All the fantasy publishers want is a well-written story with interesting characters and a gripping plot. Isn't that a crazy set of requirements?

[scarletpeaches]

Screw this. I'm going for the agent/mainstream publisher.

You get to corrupt more people that way in the long run.

[MargueriteMing]

There was an episode of...Private Practice I think...where they had this scenario. It was a young couple, and they were trying to get pregnant, and in doing the testing to help them, the doctors discovered that they were actually brother and sister. I thought it was interesting.

And the vampire scenarios sound cool too, and I'm not even all that into vampires.

I saw that episode, they were both fathered by a common anonymous sperm donor. I thought the result of the plot was lame. What does a random coincidence have to do with a lengthy established loving relationship?

The risk of genetic defects from such inbreeding is largely overstated. The odds of it being a problem are far less than those of a woman in her 40s having a child with Down Syndrome.

The idea that there is an instinctual, genetic basis for avoiding incest is equally silly. From an evolutionary point of view, investing resources into your own genetic offspring is a tendency that has been naturally selected for. A man fathering a child on his sister (or even mother) will create a child with even more of his genes than if he bred with a stranger, and so the parents' investment in the child will be even more heavily slanted toward promoting their own genetic heritage.

However, there are societal problems. Incest between a parent and sibling will result in favoritism within the family, which can become a serious problem. Same for incest between siblings. Also, anyone in a mentoring position over someone who is underage will have a much harder time maintaining objectivity, when they are getting sex as part of the relationship. This goes for parents, teachers, and to a lesser extent any adult in the community, as we all bear some responsibility to see that children are taught what they need to know to become adults.

[Stacia Kane]

You want proof? Sure. Here it is. If you're not intelligent enough to read publishers' guidelines, then I can't help you.

A list of EROTICA Publishers that explicitly BAN incest in their EROTICA books in their published guidelines (available for all to see) is below. All of these publishers explicitly state in their published guidelines that this is BANNED and will result in automatic rejection. All the major players in the erotica genre are on this list, and they make no secret about the no incest taboo in their writers guidelines. Verify it in black and white if you don't believe me.

We are talking about erotica here, folks. What might be acceptable in other genres (like literary, or science fiction) just doesn't apply.

THE FOLLOWING PUBLISHERS BAN INCEST IN THEIR PUBLISHED, STATED GUIDELINES ON THEIR WEBSITES!!
Harlequin (all of their erotica lines---they have three)
St. Martins
Avon Red
Ravenous Romance
Cleis Press
Elloras Cave
Loose Id
Samhain (their verbiage is "no book that glorifies depraved or illegal acts will be considered.") ---incest is illegal, as is rape
Alyson Books (erotica only)


Ace and Dell are both science fiction publishers---NOT EROTICA PUBLISHERS. Not a valid comparison. You can't compare applies to oranges, here, Veinglory, sorry.

Nexus has been shut down, is not publishing or acquiring any more books. Again, not a valid comparison.

Torquere is the only currently open erotica press that accepts incest---and it's an exclusively m/m publisher, an epublisher, and a very small one at that. Which is not necessarily a bad thing, but it's only one tiny publisher with a very limited market, and it should be considered the exception, not the rule.

Incest is not allowed in erotica. It's just the way it is in this genre. Deal with it. If you want to write about incest, go ahead, but you won't get it published as erotica (except maybe at Torquere.) Other genres, maybe.


Except that DEMON'S TRIAD, which I wrote with Anna J Evans, contains incest (and not just incest, but an incestuous rape) and was accepted and published--with enthusiasm--by Ellora's Cave (with an "X" rating under their old rating system.) It sold like hotcakes and is still selling.

It all depends on the story. I think it's fair to say that a story with incest will be a much, much harder sell. I admit such a story wouldn't be my cup of tea. But that doesn't mean it's impossible.

[Wayne K]

THE FOLLOWING PUBLISHERS BAN INCEST IN THEIR PUBLISHED, STATED GUIDELINES ON THEIR WEBSITES!!
Harlequin (all of their erotica lines---they have three)
St. Martins
Avon Red
Ravenous Romance
Cleis Press
Elloras Cave
Loose Id
Samhain (their verbiage is "no book that glorifies depraved or illegal acts will be considered.") ---incest is illegal, as is rape
Alyson Books (erotica only)

There are more publishers than that who don't accept memoirs, should I switch to YA?

[xccorpio]

Well, it does have heavy vampiric themes plus the incest is mandated by the family to keep the genetic line pure. The twins occur once every three generations and when they do they're supposed to marry-- or they're killed. And there's the hint that the original couple reincarnates in the twins. So yea, pretty heavy fantasy stuff going on.

Apparently, the incest theme is more common in vampiric stories than anything else.

When I read the above it came to my mind a story I'm still following.
BTW, a couple of members had mentioned examples of Japanese manga/anime series. Which is no surprise, since incest is commonly used in manga and/or anime. I recalled one in particular when I read your post, because it deals with engagement between siblings who are vampires. I'm talking about Vampire Knight. Which is one the most successful series in Japan, and all around the world. There is a lot of sexual tension between the characters, but it doesn't get explicit because it targets teens. Like I said, two of the main characters are siblings, who are engaged since birth. Their parent went through the same thing. It's not revealed until later in the plot though. The female character doesn't know she is a vampire, and a pure-blood either. I found a video of the trailer of it, if you want to check it out.

Vampire Knight ~Guilty~ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQ-zPS2fMBA)

:)

[Ruth2]

The publishing discussion has been a real learning experience for me. Thanks.

xccorpio: I'll check that out. Yep, seems like there's a lot of "gotta preserve the bloodline so let's get it on with our sibs/parents/kids/cousins" trends in vampire lit. Dauntless I'll press on. (I wonder if I ever had a daunt in the first place....) I've got a couple of twists on the tropes. (I wonder if anyone's ever been hung by a trope?) If nothing else, my writing style's different from most of what's out there. Onward into the fray....

Thanks y'all!

(Off to breakfast before I make any more bad puns.)

[scarletpeaches]

Anais Nin.

Lock thread.

[BenPanced]

You want proof? Sure. Here it is. If you're not intelligent enough to read publishers' guidelines, then I can't help you.
I'd expect a reply like that from the PublishAmerica Infomonster.

[Stacia Kane]

Well, it does have heavy vampiric themes plus the incest is mandated by the family to keep the genetic line pure. The twins occur once every three generations and when they do they're supposed to marry-- or they're killed. And there's the hint that the original couple reincarnates in the twins. So yea, pretty heavy fantasy stuff going on.


To me, this makes a big difference. It's not some brother-and-sister-get-it-on story, it's a fantasy world where such things are mandated. I'm pretty sure I've seen interviews with editors before where they've said that makes a difference, much as cousins might marry in a medieval.

[scarletpeaches]

There's the thing.

Cousins.

That's not incest here. It's legal, accepted, no big deal.

What a lot of Americans seem to forget when they get outraged over something is, their laws are not universal.

I saw this in some reviews of Meg Rosoff's How I Live Now. You'd kill yourself laughing at the outrage on Amazon. "This incest will corrupt our children!"

Uh, no. It's set in England, where banging your cousin is perfectly legal.

[Marcus]

The risk of genetic defects from such inbreeding is largely overstated. The odds of it being a problem are far less than those of a woman in her 40s having a child with Down Syndrome.



about this one point... I agree. Its my understanding that while the chances are there the first time, (genetic miss-coding through inbreeding), it only becomes an obvious problem after generations of the practice.

Case in point... The Egyptian ruling family during (i think the old kingdom) They had hundreds of years of inbreeding and they if i remember correctly had all Kinds of problems... /shrug.

[Marcus]

There's the thing.

Cousins.

That's not incest here. It's legal, accepted, no big deal.

What a lot of Americans seem to forget when they get outraged over something is, their laws are not universal.

I saw this in some reviews of Meg Rosoff's How I Live Now. You'd kill yourself laughing at the outrage on Amazon. "This incest will corrupt our children!"

Uh, no. It's set in England, where banging your cousin is perfectly legal.

bangin your FIRST cousin is legal in Mississippi And Alabama... where i grew up... meh..

[Ruth2]

Back home marrying your second cousin is legal. Had some friends of the family do that, tons of kids, all doctors and whatnot. However, 'twas Louisiana. Different states have different laws.

In Bali there's a prophecy that says it is good fortune for opposite gender twins to marry one another.

Yep, fantasy. Not 'way out there fantasy... well, maybe it is. To me it's not so far out there but then my life's been weird.

Thanks y'all!

[Marcus]

ok i can't resist saying this... :D

if you cloned yourself, and had sex with said clone, is That incest? or just masturbation?

and if you say its incest, does that make masturbation incest by inference?

LOL i'm sorry i couldn't resist... We have a religious guy at work whom i HATE, absolutely despise, not so much for his religious views, but his sheer ignorance in general coupled with a multitude of personality flaws that once I pointed them out to people they started to realize how screwed up the guy is...

I drop questions like that on him ALL the time just to screw with his head...

also worth stating that i only mentioned him as the "religious" guy just because that is the Nicest thing i can call the dip S@#t....

[SFLP]

There are a couple of dozen states in the U.S. that allow marriages between cousins. Charles Darwin, Albert Einstein and Jerry Lee Lewis (she was 13) all married their cousins.
http://archives.cnn.com/2002/LAW/04/columns/fl.grossman.incest.04.09/

Edgar Allen Poe also married his cousin, another creepy one - they met when she was seven and he was twenty, and married when she was 13. She died at age 31 and he died a couple of years after.

Jesse James married his first cousin.

Rudy Guiliani married his second cousin, though they thought they were 3rd cousins.

New Jersey apparently won't prosecute for any sort of incest if both parties are consenting and over the age of 18, and one party isn't the "head of household", and doesn't have "disciplinary power" over the other person. That's from the N.J. Statutes. Set your Vamp story in New Jersey? ;) (Doubt they'd allow sibs to marry, though. :P)

[Thomas_Anderson]

ok i can't resist saying this... :D

if you cloned yourself, and had sex with said clone, is That incest? or just masturbation?

and if you say its incest, does that make masturbation incest by inference?


A clone is more like an identical twin born at a different date than a real copy. So it'd be more like incest than masturbation.

Hopping on a time machine and going to go screw yourself would be masturbation. It'd be interesting masturbation too, because you'd get to experience it twice, first in the original timeline, and once again as a time traveller.

[SFLP]

David Gerrold's "The Man Who Folded Himself" is a novel that deals with time travel. The protagonist, Danny, has sex with himself. I think he might have even had a menage with himself...don't remember exactly, been a long time since I read it. IIRC, he also found a female version of himself...that wouldn't exactly be incest OR masturbation. Huh.

J.

[scarletpeaches]

In The Time Traveler's Wife Henry wanks himself off. I mean, not just beating the meat, but he goes back in time and actually...you know.

And his younger self was fifteen I think, so that's incest, masturbation and paedophilia all in the one.

[eqb]

And his younger self was fifteen I think, so that's incest, masturbation and paedophilia all in the one.

Not paedophilia. Both Henrys were teenagers, iirc.

But incest, most definitely.

[Marcus]

Not paedophilia. Both Henrys were teenagers, iirc.

But incest, most definitely.

yep, pedophiles are people wanting sex with children, people wanting sex with teenagers are "adelephiles" wanting sex from adolescence... another thing that pisses me off about those school kids who got in trouble for "pedophilia" when it really Wasn't. (texting each other naked pics of each other) .. bunch knee jerk reactionary ass holes forgetting what kind of world we live in... As if they were never 14-16 desperate to have sex with anything/anyone willing to let them...

ok i'm done with that... i wanted to drop a blurb there and got off on a tangent.. sigh.

[MargueriteMing]

Apparently, the incest theme is more common in vampiric stories than anything else.

When I read the above it came to my mind a story I'm still following.
BTW, a couple of members had mentioned examples of Japanese manga/anime series. Which is no surprise, since incest is commonly used in manga and/or anime. I recalled one in particular when I read your post, because it deals with engagement between siblings who are vampires. I'm talking about Vampire Knight. Which is one the most successful series in Japan, and all around the world. There is a lot of sexual tension between the characters, but it doesn't get explicit because it targets teens. Like I said, two of the main characters are siblings, who are engaged since birth. Their parent went through the same thing. It's not revealed until later in the plot though. The female character doesn't know she is a vampire, and a pure-blood either. I found a video of the trailer of it, if you want to check it out.

Vampire Knight ~Guilty~ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQ-zPS2fMBA)

:)

I've never seen an incest theme in a major vampire story.

[MargueriteMing]

There's the thing.

Cousins.

That's not incest here. It's legal, accepted, no big deal.

What a lot of Americans seem to forget when they get outraged over something is, their laws are not universal.

I saw this in some reviews of Meg Rosoff's How I Live Now. You'd kill yourself laughing at the outrage on Amazon. "This incest will corrupt our children!"

Uh, no. It's set in England, where banging your cousin is perfectly legal.

First cousins is legal in roughly 25 states.

[motormind]

First cousins is legal in roughly 25 states.

Actually anything is legal, as long as it's between consenting adults. Marriage is another thing, but erotica is not necessarily about married couples.

[xccorpio]

I've never seen an incest theme in a major vampire story.

I was just giving an example of a successful story that is based in a similar issue. Quoting from the Wikipedia about VK: It is common for pureblood siblings to marry as it is essential to keep the bloodline pure.

From a marketing point of view is interesting. The author teases the readers using many taboos. She uses visual images to hints what she will never confirmed or made part of the story.
Besides, in VK is not only the main characters that are involved in incest. The other MC, has a naughty relationship with his twin brother.

BTW, Vampire Knight is not minor either. If we use profits as measurement. It's not only the books, or the DVD from the anime. There is the CD with the theme music, the drama CDs, the Cosplay Uniforms, the Video game, the Fan-book, and every other merchandise you can thing of.

The incest issue is not told until Book 8. I must admit I lost interest after knowing it. Besides, the biting scenes between the male main characters became more interesting then either of them biting the female lead. I still will read the end of the manga, just to know how it concluded.

My point is that in spite of the incest, a story could sell.

Just for the record, incest isn't my kink. I watched the show because of the possible m/m possibilities.

[Ruth2]

Incest isn't my thing either. I used it because it's how the story came to me.

I think the pureblood concept may stem from the pseudo-royalty theme that runs through a lot of vampire lit. "We're different; we're special; we're not ordinary"-- that kind of thing.

Thanks, y'all!

[xccorpio]

Incest isn't my thing either. I used it because it's how the story came to me.
Nothing wrong if it is. Many readers online are into it as a fantasy. The group that fan-sub VK is particularly into what they called twincest. Who knows what they find so cute in it? However, they all seemed normal college girls.


I think the pureblood concept may stem from the pseudo-royalty theme that runs through a lot of vampire lit. "We're different; we're special; we're not ordinary"-- that kind of thing.

Thanks, y'all!

I agree, thanks for posting this thread. I learned a lot about something that otherwise I would have never thought about.

:)

[SFLP]

I agree, thanks for posting this thread. I learned a lot about something that otherwise I would have never thought about.

I agree, thanks for starting the thread. It's been interesting. (A little *too* interesting: This is the month I work 16 hour days/7 days a week, and I keep sneaking time to find out what's going on with it. ;))

J.

[Ruth2]

I learned a whole boat load of stuff from this thread! I'm glad y'all enjoyed it.

Thanks again!

[SFLP]

Hey, I was just on Ellora's Cave (looking for this week's book or two) and noticed that they actually have four titles, including December's, that have incest listed in their description. So, not common, but not-unpublishable, apparently.

[Ruth2]

Well, there ya go. If it's there, it's there.

I really think I'm more an erotic romance person though. My sex scenes are hot and very detailed-- "c" words flying everywhere-- but I've got wads of pages where no sex happens at all and lots of other stuff does.

Thanks SFLP!

[Thomas_Anderson]

For what it's worth, practically every free erotica site has a category for incest stories, and that category is always one of the most popular.

I know this thread is mostly about professional and paid stories, but I just thought I'd throw it in.

[Ruth2]

Hey Thomas Anderson,

Thanks for the info!

[Alphabeter]

The best-selling book in the world is a form of the Christian bible.

According to the first book of the Old Testament, Adam & Eve populated the earth. Therefore their kids and grandkids and several generations down were procreating with incestuous partners.

There is your taboo line. If religion or some other organized craziness (ie government) says its bad, write it better and it will sell.

[Ruth2]

Alphabeter, you've got a point there!

Don't forget Lot and his daughters too... and Tamar, although that was a sad one.

Thanks!

[scarletpeaches]

*cough*

I mentioned the Bible.

*cough*

[Ruth2]

Please forgive me for not mentioning it before hand. Yes you did, scarletpeaches. You did indeed, and the first to do so, I believe.

Thank you so very much.

(Off to eat crow.)
(Better than blowing Chunks.)

[scarletpeaches]

Not that I'm competitive or anything. :D

[DavidZahir]

I've never seen an incest theme in a major vampire story.
Uh...what about Lestat and his mother? Okay, they don't have sex but then Anne Rice's vampires can't have sex. But they are plenty erotic.

[Ruth2]

One can have sex without intercourse.

I'd say Lestat and his mum count. If they coulda, they woulda.

[Thomas_Anderson]

The Bible wasn't really ever meant as erotica in any section. Plus, it's incredibly vague when it mentions incest. For example, Adam and Eve. It never comes right out and says Cain, Seth, and Abel were doing their sisters, just strongly implied. Even the parts where it's clear that a Biblical character was doing the incest thing, I'm fairly certain it never shows what goes on in the bedroom.

[Ruth2]

True. And the only quasi-semi-sorta erotic book in the Bible doesn't have incest. (Song of Solomon). But it does mention incest.

(BTW, Abram was married to Sarai, his half sister...)

[MargueriteMing]

The Bible wasn't really ever meant as erotica in any section. Plus, it's incredibly vague when it mentions incest. For example, Adam and Eve. It never comes right out and says Cain, Seth, and Abel were doing their sisters, just strongly implied. Even the parts where it's clear that a Biblical character was doing the incest thing, I'm fairly certain it never shows what goes on in the bedroom.


30 Lot and his two daughters left Zoar and settled in the mountains, for he was afraid to stay in Zoar. He and his two daughters lived in a cave. 31 One day the older daughter said to the younger, "Our father is old, and there is no man around here to lie with us, as is the custom all over the earth. 32 Let's get our father to drink wine and then lie with him and preserve our family line through our father."

33 That night they got their father to drink wine, and the older daughter went in and lay with him. He was not aware of it when she lay down or when she got up.
34 The next day the older daughter said to the younger, "Last night I lay with my father. Let's get him to drink wine again tonight, and you go in and lie with him so we can preserve our family line through our father." 35 So they got their father to drink wine that night also, and the younger daughter went and lay with him. Again he was not aware of it when she lay down or when she got up. 36 So both of Lot's daughters became pregnant by their father. 37 The older daughter had a son, and she named him Moab; he is the father of the Moabites of today. 38 The younger daughter also had a son, and she named him Ben-Ammi; he is the father of the Ammonites of today.


It's not explicitly descriptive, but there is nothing "vague" about what went on, either.

[scarletpeaches]

The Bible wasn't really ever meant as erotica in any section. Plus, it's incredibly vague when it mentions incest. For example, Adam and Eve. It never comes right out and says Cain, Seth, and Abel were doing their sisters, just strongly implied. Even the parts where it's clear that a Biblical character was doing the incest thing, I'm fairly certain it never shows what goes on in the bedroom.

It's logical that they would - Adam and Eve went on to have sons and daughters. The only people around for Cain and Seth to marry were their own siblings.

[brainstorm77]

One can have sex without intercourse.

I'd say Lestat and his mum count. If they coulda, they woulda.

?

[Ruth2]

Well, oral sex doesn't have intercourse, at least sexual intercourse. Phone sex doesn't have intercourse, not with the primary players anyway. Otherwise why be on the phone-- unless you got a phone fetish.

[SFLP]

Someone - I think it's December Quinn - has a really hot mutual masturbation shower scene in one book, where I don't think they ever even touch each other. It was definitely sex. :P

J.

[Ruth2]

There ya go. That kind of thing.

I got one in my WIP. She thinks it's really happening and then she finds out he's put the whole thing in her head, that it's his fantasy of what he wants to do to her right then. Gulp.....

[Stella Omega]

One can have sex without intercourse.

I'd say Lestat and his mum count. If they coulda, they woulda.I like Wheedon's vamps so much better, and they have such hot sex-- at least in the fanfic. :D

I get tired of the sex=insertion equation. When I was a kid, Kinsey called much of what lesbians do as "mutual masturbation" which seemed so incredibly insulting and mansplaining, and also nothing like what I was experiencing.

Hands are all-purpose organs. They make fabulous genitalia.

Oh wait, we were talking about incest weren't we...

[Zipotes]

I wouldn't have a problem reading about sibling incest. Maybe because I never grew up with any siblings so can disassociate easier? Ok, I'm sick. Forget I said anything.

[Ruth2]

StellaOrtega: Hands are wonderful-- they can do such lovely things. The mind is even better... sigh. Incest... yeah. That's where we started anyway.. it sort of meandered a round.

Zipotes: I never had any sibs and was adopted on top of that, so grew up with the "wouldn't it be weird if I ended up marrying my brother" thing niggling in my head. Not being ooked by it doesn't make one sick, just curious...

Thanks, y'all!

[michael_b]

Shadowfire Press (http://www.shadowfirepress.com/) only explicitly prohibits the following:


I didn't see incest mentioned anywhere on the site, but according to their rating system, they'll have books that include stuff as off the wall as "themes some readers may find highly objectionable like body modification, character torture or death." They also allow forced seduction and "Graphically detailed violence, or horrific themes."
J.

I just spotted this and thought I should reply.

In addition to erotic romances we also publish horror novels. Not erotic horror, outright horror, so we have very different sets of guidelines/heat ratings/content warnings than publishers that focus on erotic stories only.

We do not specifically say 'no incest' because it can be part of a character's back story in romance, part of a horror novel, or appear in other non-positive lights.

For the record we do not publish twincest or other incest related erotic stories where the incest is shown as a positive thing.

[ELMontague]

Thank you for the clarification.

[barbilarry]

The only way I could ever aprove of incest even in erotica is if it were shown as a negative action. With dire consequences for those that participated.

[Bookewyrme]

On the original topic.
I'm not sure if this is mentioned before, but a relatively (compared to a similar sample of western lit.) large portion of Japanes Anime/Manga deals with incest/twincest and not always in a negative light. In fact, there is a rather stereotypical fascination with it within the genre.

Now, obviously, your novel is neither japanese, anime, nor manga. However, there is a pretty large portion of the American population which is fascinated by the genre, and most of us read regular novels as well. Just thought I'd put that out there.

I dunno if I'd necessarily read this, but not because of the incest (I just don't like vampires!)

[kuwisdelu]

There are very few things that will ick me off.

Incest isn't one of them.

[Celia Cyanide]

There are very few things that will ick me off.

Incest isn't one of them.

Yeah, me too.

What really icked me out about Flowers In The Attic wasn't the incest. It was the way VC Andrews described what sounded like rape, and then immediately afterwards, had Kathy decide, "Oh, I didn't really try hard enough to stop him. I guess I wanted it." Teens going through puberty when they aren't around anyone else their own age and begin developing an attraction to each other, even though they happen to be related--that part wasn't what bothered me at all.

[Seams]

saw this thought to put a word in edgewise.

i remember being banned for a story once, i thought it strange that on a site for writing there would be censorship when its suppose to be about honing an art.

many people have subjects they stay clear from, but how can you learn if you wear blinders to such. it's how well a story is written that draws me in, the subject, any subject, if told well should be enough.

[MargueriteMing]

The only way I could ever aprove of incest even in erotica is if it were shown as a negative action. With dire consequences for those that participated.

Really? How about between consenting adults?

[veinglory]

Never is a big word, how about between consenting adult who never find out they are siblings, but the readers knows. That would be an interesting erotic story IMHO.

[sohalt]

My favourite incest in literature: Ulrich and Agathe in Musil's The Man Without Qualities. . The chapter "Moonbeams by day", which deals quite a bit with their relationship (and with loads of other stuff too of course, it's rather philosophical), is a thing of beauty.

I was not squicked out by the incest, but that might be due to the fact that they haven't really grown up together (mother died early, kids were sent to different boarding schools), and they have not seen each other for a long time, so they are almost strangers when they meet again as adults. Also, they are very much framed as equals (which is also given as one of the main reasons for their attraction - they've finally found an equal in each other) - there's a balance of power between them.

Did I find it erotic? Difficult to answer. When I read the novel now I'm a bit troubled by Ulrich's self-absorption and narcisissm, but when I read it at 19, I did find him pretty sexy (he's so, so.... intellectual...). And Ulrich and Agatha definiteley have their moments. Although I always thought that their affair was more about a metaphysical experiment than anything else.

[Use Her Name]

I think it is a plum ripe for picking. many stories have been done with insest as the dramatic hook. I think it is gross, but that is why people read such stuff. I wouldn't hesitate to do an insest book. It was tabu up to about the 80's, to talk about it, but it is not today. All I can say is it is very hard to make it look non-criminal unless the people do not know who the other is (Odepus). A woman, 20, might find a great, wonderful 41 year old man, later to find he was her father. I would totally believe their love and the horror of discovering this fact.

[scarletpeaches]

I think it is a plum ripe for picking. many stories have been done with insest as the dramatic hook. I think it is gross, but that is why people read such stuff. I wouldn't hesitate to do an insest book. It was tabu up to about the 80's, to talk about it, but it is not today. All I can say is it is very hard to make it look non-criminal unless the people do not know who the other is (Odepus). A woman, 20, might find a great, wonderful 41 year old man, later to find he was her father. I would totally believe their love and the horror of discovering this fact.Um, no.

If I read a book centred around incest, I'm reading it because it's well-written and intriguing, not because I like the gross.

[sunandshadow]

I read incest because I think it's hot, I don't think it's gross. Forbidden, yes, scandalous maybe, or just plain weird, but that's not at all the same thing as gross.

[scarletpeaches]

It's just sex between two consenting adults. Who the fuck cares if they're related? There's no biological difference between banging your sister and a complete stranger. It's still a penis going into a vagina.

[kuwisdelu]

It's still a penis going into a vagina.

WHUT??!???

No one told me this.

[scarletpeaches]

Sorry kid.

But the grown-ups like to put their ding-a-lings in ladies' fairy-caves and wiggle them about a bit until they're sick.

[kuwisdelu]

Sorry kid.

But the grown-ups like to put their ding-a-lings in ladies' fairy-caves and wiggle them about a bit until they're sick.

They don't sneeze baby juice do they ???

[wise_dec4u]

Okay, my WIP deals with Genetic Sexual Attraction. GSA is a phenomenon that deals with folks who are blood relatives, separated at a very early age and then meet as adults. My question(s) is: would there even be a market for this? Technically it's incest but it's not coming from the usual angle. Yes, it is an integral part of the story; take it out and the story collapses.

What say y'all? Thanks.

I'm not big on the incest thing. I can't help feeling a little grossed out by it when I stop to think, someones actually having sex with their own blood kin. However, I can remember being totally addicted to the series of Flowers in the Attic novels by V. C. Andrews, especially the second book, Petals in the Wind. It dealt heavily with incest in all four books. It started with a brother and sister who fell deeply in love while being forced by their mother to live in an attic for three years with no outside contact. After they escaped the attic in the second book, the brother relentlessly pursued his sister and I do recall them having very detailed sex in more than one book. After I got over the grossness of it, I thought the books were all very sad and romantic and even found myself rooting for the siblings to find a place where they could be free love each other (;) like Kentucky, maybe. LOL).

The Dawn books by V. C. Andrews deal with incest as well (anyone catching the theme with this author yet). These books deal more with GSA in regards to siblings being separated at birth yet finding themselves extremely attracted to each other. The main character, Dawn, moves to a new school and falls quickly for the hot senior quarterback. Things get pretty hot and heavy between them right before it is discovered that she was kidnapped at birth and in fact the quarterback is her blood brother. Problem is when she is returned to her real family, the brother wants things to stay the way they were and becomes obsessed with having her. Sadly, he ends up raping her. Not as romantic as the Flower in the Attic books, but I think they could be good references for the genre you searching for.

[sohalt]

There's no biological difference between banging your sister and a complete stranger. It's still a penis going into a vagina.

It's not quite as simple as that.

Personally, I think that incest is one of the more useful taboos in a society. It has a double function:
1.) prevent inbreeding (of course in the days of birth controll, when more and more couples decide to remain childless anyway, this becomes less of an issue)
2.) protect children from sexual abuse (children are in a vulnerable position within the family because they are utterly dependant and very open to manipulation - in fact raising children necessarily means manipulating them in some way or another, it's called education - sex and manipulation is not a good combination. Now this clearly mainly applies to parent-child incest, but in families where there is a sufficient difference in age between children and parents are not very nurturing, older silblings might take on parental roles and then silbling incest becomes very problematic too. It is gross to have sex with someone who thinks they depend on you for protection).

Both of these purposes seem pretty worthy causes to me. (Although one could argue whether the incest taboo is the most efficient way to promote them - unfortunately there's enough sexual abuse within the family happening even with the taboo in place.) Of course the second function becomes irrelevant in the case you've described - those are really tragic cases.

Here I would see the problem less with potential moral outrage, but rather with the fact, that it might be perceived as a cheap way to manufacture drama. There's a reason why incest is such a staple in soap-operas.

[Celia Cyanide]

Sadly, he ends up raping her.

"Sadly" is not the word I would have used, but okay...

[veinglory]

Incest is a taboo, yes. But fiction is not always about respecting taboos.

[kuwisdelu]

Here I would see the problem less with potential moral outrage, but rather with the fact, that it might be perceived as a cheap way to manufacture drama. There's a reason why incest is such a staple in soap-operas.

It seems to me the only thing that makes it "cheap" or not is whether it's well written.

Most conflicts are cheap. The expense is how you write about them.

[sohalt]

Most conflicts are cheap. The expense is how you write about them.

Definitely. As I've mentionned already, I think the issue can be dealt with quite well in literature (Ulrich and Agathe). Other good examples: Homo Faber by Max Frisch (father/daughter) and The Cement Garden (brother/sister) by Ian McEwan.

I just wanted to point out that the danger to veer into soap-opera territory is maybe a little bit higher with such a topic than with other, less "lurid" ones. It's always good to be aware of dangers, no?

(Then again, soap operas have their place too in entertainment, so...)

[Celia Cyanide]

It seems to me the only thing that makes it "cheap" or not is whether it's well written.

Most conflicts are cheap. The expense is how you write about them.

You are right about this, and yet, there are some conflicts that make people roll their eyes and put the book down, and never stick around long enough to find out how well written it is.

[wise_dec4u]

"Sadly" is not the word I would have used, but okay...

Is Tragically a better word?

[Celia Cyanide]

Sure. Tragic, disgusting, repulsive...

[veinglory]

Some people, yes. But I have that reaction to uber-alpha males in romance yet there they are all over the shelves. Nothing is universal. I personally don't have that response to consensual adult incest--and while I do not actively seek it out I have several mainstream fantasy novels on my shelf that include it.

[TrixieBelden]

What is incest technically for an erotic romance? What if the couple are related by marriage? Is that an incestuous situation?

[veinglory]

It isn't strictly defined but I think most people are thinking of blood relationships closer than cousin.

[Bookewyrme]

I lost track of this thread for a bit, so I'm not sure if this has been mentioned already, but Robert A. Heinlein's novels 'Time Enough for Love' and 'To Sail Beyond the Sunset' both deal with incest, from both angles. Both as a 'it's all just fun and if you really love someone go for it, as long as noone's getting hurt' angle, and from a 'incest can be dangerous whether you're risking inbred kids or not'. It is incredibly interesting in both books.

[nkkingston]

The law varies depending on where you are, but it's almost always siblings and parents, and in some parts of the world first cousins as well. Step siblings and so on also vary by law.

A friend of mine back at university wrote her PhD on incest in Victorian romance. It's a pretty common theme. Step siblings and children raised as siblings often marry; long lost siblings come very close before the revelation that actually poor little Johnny who lives in the coal scuttle is as noble in his heritage as he is his manners (ah, eugenics!), and cousins are at it like rabbits. We have a lot more qualms about it in fiction than they ever did.

[MargueriteMing]

It's just sex between two consenting adults. Who the fuck cares if they're related? There's no biological difference between banging your sister and a complete stranger. It's still a penis going into a vagina.


Umm, or fingers, SP.

[Samantha's_Song]

Or tongues... :tongue
Umm, or fingers, SP.

[MargueriteMing]

It isn't strictly defined but I think most people are thinking of blood relationships closer than cousin.

Are M/M romance publishers squicked about brother/brother?

[veinglory]

Some are and some aren't. There are certainly some small presses putting out brother incest and twincest stories.

[Art_Sempai]

Funny pic on the subject.

http://i46.tinypic.com/wqoftg.jpg

[Ruth2]

Wow, this thread has legs!

Now heavy into rewrites, I still hope to find a home for my WIP. Yes they're vampires-- but genetic not made. My MC doesn't know it at the beginning and even bore a child sired by a regular human (although child is now dead.) And the vampirism is different from what I've read. Plus all the vamps are related in some form in my book so incest is required in order to produce offspring.

But try explaining that in a query where words are precious, esp when the guidelines state "no incest". I've got twincest, cousin incest and great x 9 incest (the oldest vamp is over 300 years old and is a direct ancestor of my MC). Fantasy...

[nkkingston]

TBH, I'd skirt the issue. Maybe "The ancient Egyptians felt the only way to preserve royalty was to marry members of the same family; for vampires it's not a matter of feeling, but necessity". Or something that plays up the reproductive and fantasy elements, rather than the sexiness!

[veinglory]

You could use the language of pedigree animal bredding: "line breeding"--necessary to maintain recessive traits that are often part of the breed standard.

[Ruth2]

Hmm, nkkingston. That's an idea... thanks.

[MargueriteMing]

Wow, this thread has legs!

Now heavy into rewrites, I still hope to find a home for my WIP. Yes they're vampires-- but genetic not made. My MC doesn't know it at the beginning and even bore a child sired by a regular human (although child is now dead.) And the vampirism is different from what I've read. Plus all the vamps are related in some form in my book so incest is required in order to produce offspring.

But try explaining that in a query where words are precious, esp when the guidelines state "no incest". I've got twincest, cousin incest and great x 9 incest (the oldest vamp is over 300 years old and is a direct ancestor of my MC). Fantasy...

We all have a common ancestor in the distant past, so....

Unless you're into dogs, or ponies, you're doing it with a relative.

[sunandshadow]

Funny pic on the subject.

http://i46.tinypic.com/wqoftg.jpg
But isn't pillow talk between a husband and wife just like that? Lol.

[Ruth2]

You could use the language of pedigree animal bredding: "line breeding"--necessary to maintain recessive traits that are often part of the breed standard.

"Line breeding"-- I like that. Thanks!

[K Ackermann]

Isn't it funny that this tabboo subject has the most comments and the most views.

What does that say?

Maybe it says there's a whole lot of fucking liars out there in the big world.

[DrZoidberg]

The erotica author Argus (who sells tonnes of books) often has lots of incest in his books, of the only reason that it's more shocking. He could easily lift it from any of his books and the stories would be as good. Adding incest adds more of a shocker.

Anything that is taboo will turn somebody on. Argus will use anything if it keeps the reader awake. It's not my thing, but more power to him.

[Satori1977]

Well, I was curious. Keep in mind I don't know anything about any of these companies. ;)

Edit: Took out one that DID prohibit incest in the text that I posted. Sheesh, I'm blind today.

http://www.erotiquepress.com/submission.htm

Website says:
IT'S NOT JUST ABOUT ROMANCE!
Erotiqué is currently accepting submissions for ALL GENRES of erotic fiction.

They say "We are not looking for stories that involve any acts that are sadistically deviant or illegal (pedophilia, necrophilia, or bestiality)." Nothing about incest.

EREC says that Predators and Editors have them listed as Not Recommended, but I checked P&E and it now says "Good news, they now have a much improved contract" and the company is no longer listed as Not Recommended.

Shadowfire Press (http://www.shadowfirepress.com/) only explicitly prohibits the following:


I didn't see incest mentioned anywhere on the site, but according to their rating system, they'll have books that include stuff as off the wall as "themes some readers may find highly objectionable like body modification, character torture or death." They also allow forced seduction and "Graphically detailed violence, or horrific themes."

http://www.total-e-bound.com/ prohibits pedophilia, rape as titillation, bodily functions, necrophilia, and non-shapeshifter bestiality.

They have one rating that is "Total-e-taboo - the taboo line breaks into pure, unadulterated erotica or covers the subjects that could be seen as extreme or offensive, pushing stories to the limits of what some deem acceptable."

http://www.imajinnbooks.com says "We don’t want stories about heavy BDSM, torture, bestiality (dogs, horses, snakes, and other real-world critters), non-sexual bodily functions ("golden showers"), pedophilia, necrophilia, cannibalism, weapons or other deadly implements being shoved into orifices, rape or anything else so kinky that it will offend our core readership. On the other hand, we understand that writing erotic stories about werewolves and aliens could lead to some interesting situations. "

Maybe your story would be considered an "interesting situation".

A lot of the erotic publishers websites I looked at didn't list anything, acceptable or not - they only gave formatting guidelines. I skipped those.

Hope you find a home for your story. :)


J.
These are some awesome links, thanks for sharing!! I am going to check them out when I get the chance.

[Satori1977]

This thread has been quite an eye-opener. There seems to be a market for all types of erotica, though incest would be a harder sell than others. Would I read it? Probably not. If the book is not erotica and has incest in it, I would be more likely to read it. The only ones I have read are the VC Andrews series. I read them pretty young and did not get off by the sex scenes. If anything, I felt sad for the characters. I have been working on a fantasy story where siblings engage in incest. It pretty much takes place off screen though, and not meant to arouse. They are both pretty evil, and they try to screw over their other sister, in more way than one. But the storyline is important to the whole dynamic of the people in this story.

So I think if it makes sense, then write it. You will find a market for it. And Ruth, the way you describe your story, I would definitely read it.

[Satori1977]

It's just sex between two consenting adults. Who the fuck cares if they're related? There's no biological difference between banging your sister and a complete stranger. It's still a penis going into a vagina.

Sorry, but I disagree. When I read Flowers in the Attic, it grossed me out thinking about my own brother like that. Sex is not just a physical act, but a mental one.

[scarletpeaches]

Yes, it grossed YOU out. It doesn't gross EVERYONE out.

For YOU sex is a mental act. This is not the case for everyone.

There's a market for incest, both in real life and in fiction. And I'd hardly call Virginia Andrews erotica. Laughably bad family sagas, yes. But erotic? Good god no.

[Satori1977]

For the record, I don't have a problem with incest. What two consenting adults do in the privacy of their bedroom, I have no problem with. I was just stating that it isn't just about having the right body parts that fit together. Sex is complicated. It doesn't have to be about love. But many things play a part, like attraction. Some people can have sex with any warm body, but most cannot. And even if there are feelings and attraction involved, doesn't mean you will have good sex (been there). It is very much a mental act, not just a physical act. Take people that have fetishes. They can only be aroused if that object of desire is present (like high heels or spanking). For other people, it can still be mental. There are times when you just aren't in the mood. Arousal is determined by so many factors, many of which are mental. If you are tired, depressed or simply have other important things on your mind, you might not be able to have sex. Think about men that are unable to get it up. Sometimes it is a physical problem or illness, often it is a mental issue. So even though we all have our own preferences, sex is a physical and mental act. If it wasn't, then everyone would be having sex with everyone else.

And no, I don't consider Andrews books to be erotica either. Not horror either. Not sure what I would label them.

Just out of curiousity, do you have any siblings Scarlett? I just don't know anyone who does have brothers or sisters that would have sex with them. There are siblings who have sex, but the majority don't. Why? Because they aren't attracted to them. They cannot think of their sibling that way. Mostly because of the taboo of incest. It is one thing to enjoy reading about it, but how many people would actually have sex with their brother? (or sister?) Because mentally they can't get past the blood relative part, and it does squick them out.

[scarletpeaches]

My point about the penis/vagina thing was mechanically, it's the same equipment whether the people are related or unrelated. And then of course we have differences in culture, religion and nationality. In some places first cousins can marry. In others, such a relationship is classed as incest.

Do I have siblings? Good question. I'm the child of adultery so it's likely that I do. There's been talk of such.

I think Genetic Sexual Attraction (or whatever it's called) has been mentioned, whereby siblings have been raised separately develop a sexual relationship because of that attraction, a family tie being mistaken for/manipulated into a sexual one. In such cases I find that perfectly believable. Acceptable? Hell, if you're not hurting anyone and it doesn't go against your religious or moral beliefs, who the hell cares what you do with your own genitals?

Would I have sex with my own brother? Depends on what he looked like. The elephant man? No. Shannon Leto? In a frickin' heartbeat.

[veinglory]

Erotica is fiction and I for one am sick to death of having what I read or write being extrapolated to mean I am immoral, or frigid, or sexually frustrated, or a nympho, or lust after my siblings, or any damn thing, really. Lets keep this on the plane of discussing fiction, please.

[kuwisdelu]

Take people that have fetishes. They can only be aroused if that object of desire is present (like high heels or spanking).

:Wha:

Having a fetish doesn't mean you can only be aroused by a particular object. The use of it just intensifies the arousal.

Yeah, people can take a fetish that far, but most people don't.

Just out of curiousity, do you have any siblings Scarlett? I just don't know anyone who does have brothers or sisters that would have sex with them. There are siblings who have sex, but the majority don't. Why? Because they aren't attracted to them. They cannot think of their sibling that way. Mostly because of the taboo of incest. It is one thing to enjoy reading about it, but how many people would actually have sex with their brother? (or sister?) Because mentally they can't get past the blood relative part, and it does squick them out.

So?

What's your point?

[scarletpeaches]

Like veinglory said, reading about this or that doesn't mean you'd do it in real life.

Hell, I read Margaret Yorke's books frequently. I've never killed someone.

Why then does reading about incest make people think I condone it/would indulge myself?

[kuwisdelu]

Erotica is fiction and I for one am sick to death of having what I read or write being extrapolated to mean I am immoral, or frigid, or sexually frustrated, or a nympho, or lust after my siblings, or any damn thing, really. Lets keep this on the plane of discussing fiction, please.

Yes.

And I'll say this, too:

The best erotic writing will arouse me regardless of whether the particular act depicted would normally turn me on or not. I've read stuff that in real life I'd be freaked out by, but in the context of the story I found it fucking hot. Write well enough and you can eroticize just about anything and make it work.

[DrZoidberg]

If an erotic story doesn't break at least one taboo, then what's the point? Take your pick.

[S.R. Keene]

If an erotic story doesn't break at least one taboo, then what's the point? Take your pick.

yes, this. Titillation and all that jazz...

[Bookewyrme]

If an erotic story doesn't break at least one taboo, then what's the point? Take your pick.

I don't think this is nescecarily true. I've read some really wonderful ones that were straight up regular, but they were particularly sweet and well written. Breaking taboos is great fun of course, but it's not the be-all and end-all of how to titillate.

[Satori1977]

My point about the penis/vagina thing was mechanically, it's the same equipment whether the people are related or unrelated. And then of course we have differences in culture, religion and nationality. In some places first cousins can marry. In others, such a relationship is classed as incest.

Do I have siblings? Good question. I'm the child of adultery so it's likely that I do. There's been talk of such.

I think Genetic Sexual Attraction (or whatever it's called) has been mentioned, whereby siblings have been raised separately develop a sexual relationship because of that attraction, a family tie being mistaken for/manipulated into a sexual one. In such cases I find that perfectly believable. Acceptable? Hell, if you're not hurting anyone and it doesn't go against your religious or moral beliefs, who the hell cares what you do with your own genitals?

Would I have sex with my own brother? Depends on what he looked like. The elephant man? No. Shannon Leto? In a frickin' heartbeat.

I agree with GSA...and totally find it believable. If anyone watches Nip/Tuck, this was actually a storyline.

As far as my own brother, part of it is that he just isn't my type. No similar interests, he is Republican and quite conservative, I am the opposite, and physically he isn't my type. I just don't see him that way, and most siblings will say the same thing. Now if Colin Farrell was my brother, I would probably make an exception.

[scarletpeaches]

Ha! OH YEAH. So with you on that. :D

[Satori1977]

Like veinglory said, reading about this or that doesn't mean you'd do it in real life.

Hell, I read Margaret Yorke's books frequently. I've never killed someone.

Why then does reading about incest make people think I condone it/would indulge myself?

That was kidna my point too. I have no problem reading about it, but it isn't something I would do in real life. I think my whole post came out wrong.

[MargueriteMing]

Isn't it funny that this tabboo subject has the most comments and the most views.

What does that say?

Maybe it says there's a whole lot of fucking liars out there in the big world.

It says you haven't gotten off the first page of the forum.

[MargueriteMing]

:Wha:

Having a fetish doesn't mean you can only be aroused by a particular object.



Umm, actually, it does. That is the definition of a fetish. The exclusive obsessiveness it what separates a fetish from a kink.

[kuwisdelu]

Umm, actually, it does. That is the definition of a fetish. The exclusive obsessiveness it what separates a fetish from a kink.

Not in any definition I've ever read. I believe you're talking about fetishistic paraphilia. Kink is used to describe any kind of non-normative sexual behavior, which includes fetishism, but also things like BDSM and role-playing, etc. Oh, and incest. :)

[Treyfan]

[deleted by veinglory]

[kuwisdelu]

Ugh! Some of the comments on this thread are making me physically ill!

*shakes head*

Then stop reading.

[Thomas_Anderson]

I always figured kink and fetish were synonyms.

[NYCutie]

Ruth your idea sounds interesting...

[MargueriteMing]

Not in any definition I've ever read. I believe you're talking about fetishistic paraphilia. Kink is used to describe any kind of non-normative sexual behavior, which includes fetishism, but also things like BDSM and role-playing, etc. Oh, and incest. :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paraphilia

http://www.behavenet.com/capsules/disorders/fetishism.htm

[kuwisdelu]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paraphilia

http://www.behavenet.com/capsules/disorders/fetishism.htm

Neither of those contradict what I said.

[Thomas_Anderson]

By Ming's logic, wouldn't one have to pretty messed up in the head to have a fetish? I can't imagine being turned on only by one very specific thing (as in only being turned on by leather, but not by Megan Fox's bosoms, *insert opposite sex icon for those not interested in women*).

If Ming's right, it seems feitsh is grossly misused by the public. I highly doubt people who to have foot fetishes are ONLY turned on by feet, for example.

[kuwisdelu]

There are multiple meanings to a word depending on context.

Masochist as is commonly understood is one who takes pleasure in pain; masochist in the BDSM sense is very similar, but, obviously, with obvious sexual component; masochistic personality disorder, however, is rather different and much more complicated than either of these.

[MargueriteMing]

By Ming's logic, wouldn't one have to pretty messed up in the head to have a fetish? I can't imagine being turned on only by one very specific thing (as in only being turned on by leather, but not by Megan Fox's bosoms, *insert opposite sex icon for those not interested in women*).

If Ming's right, it seems feitsh is grossly misused by the public. I highly doubt people who to have foot fetishes are ONLY turned on by feet, for example.

Depends if it's a kink or a true fetish.

Oh, it's Mingorance, btw. The board doesn't allow enough letters.

[DrZoidberg]

My two cents on the fetish kink thing.

I think the terminology has evolved. I think we think of fetishes today as a fairly fluid affair, where everybody has plenty but of varying intensity, which change over time.

Also I think we commonly mix sexual fetishes with non-sexual fetishes. Like when Slavoj Zizek, who is a Lacanian psychoanalyst (and philosopher) talks about fetish as an object or symbol where one has moved some hangup or embodiment of someone or something. Sexual or otherwise. Could be anything really. And can be applied to entire cultures or nations.

Kink is just something we like, which we think ourselves is odd. As opposed to perverse, which is something we like doing which explicitly breaks a social norm.

[MargueriteMing]

I suspect Freud was a kinky soul, who projected a lot.

Language changes. Often it is because people use a word imprecisely. When that happens, the preservation of clarity in writing isn't served very well.

[Canotila]

This was an interesting article about how women can detect genetic compatibility through smell.

http://www.nhne.org/news/NewsArticlesArchive/tabid/400/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/4244/language/en-US/How-Smell-Influences-Sexual-Attraction.aspx

It totally explains why my brothers smell revolting to me, yet all my woman friends find them hot.

Sort of a random anecdote, but relates to the topic. One of my friend's mom is adopted. They managed to track down her biological grandparents at one point, and asked them why her mother was given up for adoption.

Both grandparents grew up in the same small town. One thing led to another, and the boy brought his girlfriend home and told dad he wanted to marry her. Dad said no. The boy insisted he HAD to marry her *wink wink* and the dad nearly had an heart attack because the boy had managed to date and impregnate his illegitimate half sister.

Moral of the story. If you're going to mess around in a small town, at least warn your kids when they start dating.

[Bookewyrme]

Huh...how did the friend's mother react to this news? Was she squicked out, or just happy to get to know her biological family?